Forum:Okay let's get this over with. Page Name Noatok or Amon?

Forums: War Room → Okay let's get this over with. Page Name Noatok or Amon?

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This discussion is closed. The result of this discussion was:
"Amon" shall remain as the name of the article.
Please do not edit this discussion.

I have the strangest feeling that this is going to end up being a huge topic of discussion so let's deal with it now--Koh Koh the face stealer 16:15, June 23, 2012 (UTC).

Amon. It's important that we keep the most commonly used name for this character, or will we will take a heavy hit in searches for his name. An exception should be made. The 888th Avatar (talk) 16:17, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Alright why don't we just make the word Amon redirect? He seems to want to go by as Noatuck now, but I understand what you're saying. The Kid 100% (wall • contribs)

I'm for renaming the page to "Noatok". A redirect would to do fine in this case, as said above. Matey Y. (talk • A:TLoM)  16:35, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

No, a redirect won't do it. It's the articles actual name that shows up in search results, not a crummy redirect. I regard it as the height of strategic stupidity to sacrifice a topic this important to satisfy a few encyclopedic qualms. In any case, it's not unprecedented. Wikipedia often supplants a persons real full name with the name they are most commonly identified by. The 888th Avatar (talk) 16:37, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

I think enough people know his as Noatok as well. Matey Y. (talk • A:TLoM)  16:38, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

That's not the point. When people search for this person, they are much more likely to use Amon than Noatok, especially when they haven't seen the final episode. "Enough" doesn't cut it. In the reality of online publishing, you go for the name that will get you the most hits. The 888th Avatar (talk) 16:40, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

You seem upset, 888, I think we need another admin. to in way on this. The Kid 100% (wall • contribs)

I'm incline to go with 888. But I would like to bring up the point that by the end of the episode he seems to want to reassume his title as Noatak. Which means that's what he wants to be called. Less me not forget that Robin's official wiki name is Dick Grayson although no one knows him by that name. Unrelated to this wiki but I 888 said that it's normally done by the most common name and that's not really true....Koh Koh the face stealer 16:57, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Kuzonkid7: My opinion is as valid as anyone else's. I don't have less free speech because of my status as an admin. It is not part of my job to sit on some high mountain and be calm and neutral, and be tossed out of a discussion when I deviate from that. What I am saying here, as firmly as I possibly can, is that renaming the page to a name that is not immediately familiar to all viewers of Korra is a huge mistake. My tone is borne out of a desperation for this site to avoid making it. The 888th Avatar (talk) 16:59, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Edit conflict: I'm fine with whatever everyone else decides. And 888 is a great admin and bureaucrat; no need for a change there. Matey Y. (talk • A:TLoM)  17:00, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

The Kid 888 is human and therefore can get passionate about topics near and dear to his heart like anyone else. He's a good admin though. I understand you frustration, believe me. But let's try to have a little more empathy for the admins and maybe they'll have more empathy for you. Everyone wants to be respected. But anyway. Like I said I think we should do it like the Batman wiki. Official name but the nick name redirects. But I'm fine with what everyone else decides. I don't think saying "formerly known as" is accurate though as he abandoned his Amon alias by the end of the episode. Koh Koh the face stealer 17:09, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

The reason why Wikipedia makes exceptions for people where their nickname is immensely more popular than their real, "official" name is that their nickname is what goes down as historical record. Others will refer to these people by their nickname much more often than any other. There are many historical examples of people who picked a new name for themselves, and where the new name became accepted as their common name in history. We should follow this approach rather than the approach displayed by other Wikia wikis, which I believe are very wrong on this topic. They do themselves a disservice both to their search results (and therefore their traffic) and to their usability as an encyclopedia. The 888th Avatar (talk) 17:15, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

I meant no disrespect to 888, we can't all agree. I'll be happy with whatever wiki decides. I meant no malice.

(Following from my previous post) And as evidence of Wikipedia's sensible approach: Malcolm X. They don't name him by his birth name, Malcolm Little; nor do they name him by the name he last wanted to be known by as his "official" legal name, El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz. The 888th Avatar (talk) 17:21, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

888th I see you point. But Amon was an alias. It doesn't refer to the entire history of the person. It's really just the name of the equalist Leader. Noahtok in my opinion covers the entire history of the person, after all we do carry our history with us throughout our lives no matter what name we go by. Plus, as stated before he seemed to drop his alias by the end of the episode. I know your worried about search accessibility, but at the expense of accuracy? I guessI would understand if he hadn't changed his mind by the end but the fact that he dumped his entire Amon alias, it just doesn't seem right to say that Amon is his name and Noahtak is his former name. He even said hiimself that he forgot the sound of his "real name".......I'm genuinely torn on this issue I'm just bringing up the points why I'm torn though I do see your point.Koh Koh the face stealer 17:26, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

I was more talking about fiction, where names are more disputable. Ie Dick Grayson, Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent.........Koh Koh the face stealer 17:28, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Even if we didn't consider traffic at all, the idea with encyclopedic writing like we do is that we have to objectively determine what he is most commonly known by, without regard to whatever he believes he should be called (which is subjective). Indeed, Malcolm X's "real name" when he died was El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz, but we all know him in the history books as Malcolm X. This is the most accurate naming of him because it encompasses what he is known for. We're not here to write Amon's biography; we're here to provide an encyclopedic overview of the Avatar universe. Notability is more important than considering their entire history, as we're a tertiary source. Especially when we have an in-universe policy on this wiki where we cover subjects as if we were in the Avatar world, it is only correct to use the name that provides him with historical notoriety. The 888th Avatar (talk) 17:33, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Per 888, I think that the page should be kept as Amon. He was referred to as Amon for pretty much all the series until the finale, where he is still also called Amon. That is the name more users will recognize. BlackMonkey ^{Talk - Fire & Ice} 17:42, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not going to argue that Amon would be best known to republic city citizens as Amon. But I'm arguing is that calling him Amon isn't accurate to who he is. Like I said I see your point. But I still think the best description fot this man in the sense of who he is is Noahtok. I mean if we suddenly found out cabbage merchant's name would we still name his page cabbage merchant? Not as accurate even though we know him as cabbage merchant. Or even foamy....I think I'll let everyone else weigh in now as I don't want to seem redundant.

--Koh Koh the face stealer 17:45, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

It must absolutely stay as Amon. It is the name he chose for himself and was known as for most of the season, and Noatok would be a spoiler for anyone coming in who hadn't seen the finale. Monkeyfeathers94 (wall • contribs) 17:47, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Monkeyfeathers the whole wiki is a spoiler to people who haven't seen -insert episode here- I get the idea that Amon was his name for most of the season and I respect that argument. Yea I know I said I'd back off but now I mean it. :) Koh Koh the face stealer 17:51, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Honestly guys, to think I was more worried we were going have to merge Amon's page with another character. Let's make this simple.

• Should a page be named Peter Parker or Spider-Man?
• Should a page be named Bruce Wayne or Batman?
• Should a page be named Clark Kent or Superman?

Noatak may be Amon's secret identity, but Amon is the main attraction and primary subject matter. The name stays. Hasdi has spoken. — Hasdi Bravo • 18:01, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

wow I guess dick grayson/robin is the only one to use the real name. my mistake. I'm fine with it staying Amon. the page needs work though. Koh Koh the face stealer 18:12, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

That's because there are FIVE Robins to disambiguate from. Bats is due to get a new Robin soon. . — Hasdi Bravo • 18:26, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

We know him the most as Amon; to just throw his name over to Noahtak or however it is spelled would not make any sense. It would look silly and may even confuse some who are looking for Amon. Katara and Bolin Fanboy Send me a messenger hawk 18:28, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be best to just put "Noatok (Amon)" as the title? This way a search either way will bring one to the correct page. Also, "Amon" is a far better known title compared to his real name Noatok.68.184.148.68 19:15, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

As stated above, we know him much better as Amon. That is who he is to all of the city, and that is what he wanted to be called. The article should remain as is. DarkKnightRises (wall • contribs) 20:23, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

i say leave it as amon, unless its amon (noatak) or such. we should do a redirect from noatak to amon however. Rydersilver (wall • contribs) 21:36, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

and for searching.. a lot of people are mispelling noatak as seen above. haha Rydersilver (wall • contribs) 21:37, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Characters in ficition that are more comonly know by their alias, always are refered that way, Amon is no exeption 85.242.77.205 23:42, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Y'know, I was going to make a comment to leave Amon as Amon, but make a redirect of Noatak -> Amon ...but it appears that redirect already exists. So, no change. :) Vulmen (talk • EoK) 02:42, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, I say leave it as Amon, as he's most commonly referred to by that name. Plus, if someone wanted to search "Noatok", they might have a little trouble because people have different variations as far as spelling goes. "Amon", however, is pretty simple. The Ultimate Waterbender 02:47, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

sooo pretty much what i said? haha. Rydersilver (wall • contribs) 07:35, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Page name Amon with a redirect to it as "Noatak". It's the same with "The Dark One" and "Oosh whatever the Third". The Dark One is his more used and therefore more recognized name. Everyone knows Amon as Amon, so a redirect from Noatak to Amon should do the trick. Lady Lostris /  SOAP 12:06, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

i think is better the opposite amon is used in all the fist series and "noatak" only in the last episode so i think is better mantein the page with the name amon and a redirect noatak to amon Nitram86 (wall • contribs) 12:10, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

His name should stay Amon in the article title for the reasons already given. --AvatarRokus Ghost (Message me • Read my fanon) 12:12, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

I think the Noatok page shoul be completely different from Amon's. We could use the Noatok page for including the information about his parents, his waterbending ability and all... and details about his grown-self in the finale. However the alias Amon should have just a small sample of the Noatok page with a link to it. Because if we put Amon as Noatok it would be as if they both were the same characters, with they are clearly not: they're two personalities (quite similar; that use the same body). Amon must not have the waterbender identification. However Noatok doesn't get the equalist label. I don't know if you are understanding where my ideas are getting me... Something as: "Amon's true identity" subsection, and a small paragraph + a link. I think that's the right way to avoid spoilers for people that haven't watched the finale yet... Master Ratava熱沓霸師傅 12:21, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Master Ravata, the entire point of the wiki is to provide every single piece of information in the easiest way possible. It is a given that people who haven't watched LoK will spoil themselves on the wiki, just like in any other series with their respective wikis. If they want to run the risk of doing that, that is their concern, not the wikia's. As per the above point, the Amon page should host all the information.

It should also be kept as such for consistency. i.e Zuko and the Blue Spirit, Katara and the Painted Lady, which do not have separate pages. Noatak and Amon are the same person, just Amon is a common alias used for convenience. There is absolutely no point separating the two, so I don't get that line of argument at all. KettleMeetPot (wall • contribs) 12:28, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

As for Zuko/Blue Spirit, and Katara/Painted Lady, my point of view is that important aliases should have their own article pages (both Blue Spirit and Painted Lady have episodes dedicated to them, so they're kind of "important".)

About Noatok/Amon, the alias is the name by which we know him for most of this season; I'm in favor of keeping it this way. And as minor characters have their small articles, I don't see why Noatok couldn't have his own (I meant it because of the character development; as stated Noatok article could be about Amon's past, to keep the main article shorter and directly to what's the characters participation on the show.)

Having an alias this deep, is a psychological trait that resembles multiple personalities (which isn't this character case; but due to its character drama turn.)

First of all, my support is for keeping "Amon" as the name of the article.

Secondly, my opinion on keeping Noatok as a separate article is based on both psychology and script writing. As for Amon isn't Noatok anymore. If you may see the difference. They must share the same body. But the relation Amon/Noatok is a way more deep than Painted Lady/Katara and Blue Spirit/Zuko.

Master Ratava熱沓霸師傅 13:15, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

He's known as Amon for the absolute majority of the season; only in 1.11 we find out his true name's Noatok, therefore the article name should still remain as Amon. Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem 13:34, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

He should definitely stay amon since he was addressed with this name for majority of the season.Mako's scarf (wall • contribs) 14:01, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

I say we should definately keep it Amon. We know him as Amon up until the day of his (probably) death. Also, where was it said that his other name is spelled Noatok instead of Noatak or something else? Not saying it is wrong, but knowing we had a "Bei Fong" issue I want to know if this is clear.

I'm sorry, I forgot my signature

TheLoKnessmonster (wall • contribs) 20:51, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

I agree too with the title 'Amon'. As for the creation of two separate pages, I disagree. Personalities can be different, but the person and the history is the same. It's logical to continue Noatak history chronologically and narrate his conversion to Amon. Dcasawang1 • wall 15:21, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Amon. Really, this is a non-issue. Amon is Noatak's nom de guerre, just like Batman, Superman, etc. Articles don't need to be named after their character's real names. Just like the infobox image should display the most recognizable likeness of the subject, so should the name. ― Thailog 15:31, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

As for one vs. two pages I would like to cite the blue spirit as precedent for just having one TheLoKnessmonster (wall • contribs) 23:06, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Definitely Amon, per 888 and Thailog. Rassilon of Old ^{(Wall - Help)} 12:08, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

I think we should move the page to his real name and we can make sure that his true name also.-- King Marth 64 (talk • other wikis • blogs) http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k576/DigiPen92/th_20px-Marthsprite.gif 20:09, June 26, 2012 (UTC)