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  • Over the course of the series, there has been a lot of ambiguity about how the avatar actually works. Many times it seemed as though each avatar was a seperate person, (they kept talking to each other) and others like they were all the same (they kept refering to reincarnation and past lives), and not to mention the avatar state. We'll never know for sure until those alleged and long-awaited episodes about the avatar lineage come out in book 2 spirits, but here are some basic theories I've run across.

    -Each avatar is a seperate person. They really don't have a connection, the current one just finds the old one in the spirit world and gets advice.

    -The avatar is a spirit that passes to the next incarnation. Basically, in the body of the avatar, there are two souls: that of the avatar spirit, and that of the person carrying it and serving the world (korra, aang, roku, kyoshi, ect)

    -The avatar is one spirit, each is the same person.

    I've come up with my own theory that, as far as I can tell, explains all of the ambiguities in the series. Check it out and let me (and the rest of us too!) know what you think - if you see any holes in my theory or want me to explain a particular situation, let me know so i can try to fix/explain it.

    -The word 'reincarnation' means that the soul passes to another body to live another life. This term has been used so many times that we cannot ignore it. The avatar is a single entity. What about all the times Aang talked to Roku? When the avatar reincarnates, his soul passes on to a new life, and the memories from his old life become part of his unconscous mind, which resides in the spirit world, or appear there when the current avatar goes there. My proof of this is Roku's statement "I am a part of you." Roku is a part of Aang's (well, now Korra's, but i'm mostly going to refer to aang, because korra didn't have many spiritual expierences) unconcscous mind. (sorry about my spelling). Also, Roku told Aang, "Aang, you are me." Again, proof that they are two parts of the same mind. Think of the movie Inception. When in a dream, your unconscious (in the movie they said subconscious, they were wrong) is projected as other people (they were cleverly called projections) in the dream. This is how I imagine the spirit world to be like - when the avatar goes there (or calls their spirits from his body), his past lives are projected for him to talk to.

    Before he has learned to control the avatar state, his unconscous mind is controlling his conscious while in the avatar state (like all the times aang activated it our of danger or emotion). The process of learning to control the avatar state is the process of learning to control your unconscious mind, which is what happens when the avatar uses the avatar state at will. The reason for the 'power boost' from the avatar state is that the avatar state is full access to his full mind and all his knowledge and power, unconscious or not. Normal people cannot do this. (real world too- (sort of) - study psychology).

    When the avatar's body takes on the form of a particular past life (like when Aang chanelled Kyoshi in "Avatar Day") his mind is simply switching which lifetime's set of memories are conscious. When he calls a past life out of his body (as in the sozin's comet finale) he is projecting unconscous memories for him to talk to (much like what happens in the spirit world). When Korra was kidnapped by tarlock and had memories of Aang, what was basically happening was that Korra's memories from that lifetime were coming to her conscous mind without her having to project them. She is the first incarnation of the avatar that we have seen able to do this.

    I just though of this part and didn't know where to put it so here it is: 'avatar' is derived from the Sanskrit (again, sorry about spelling) word "avatara" which, according to this wiki, means a descent of a god to earth in mortal form. This points to the belief that the avatar existed in the spirit world prior to coming to the physical world, and the fact that they are all the same person. (and as a side note, by that definition, the koi fish could be considered avatars of the moon and ocean spirits).

    I hope this clears up some doubt for some people, or at least gets them thinking. Remember though, this is just my own theory and speculation based on evidence. Enjoy, thanks for reading, and don't forget to comment!

    oh yeah, p.s. - look at the talk page of the avatar article. This issue is discussed there as well.

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    • I'd also like to add about the Sanskrit part Avatar is most often associated with The Dashaavatars also known as the 10 Avatars of Vishnu. The basic concept is summarized in two verses from the Bhagavad Geeta.

      yada yada hi dharmasya
      glanir bhavati bharata |
      abhyuthanama dharmasya
      tadatmanam srujamyaham ||

      paritraanaaya sadhuunaam
      vinaashaaya chadushkritaam |
      dharma samsthaapanaarthaaya
      sambhavaami yuge yuge ||

      The meaning goes somewhat like this: When ever the world is in crisis, I (God) will come onto the world to save it. The way this works is that God will come onto the earth in the form of a human. I hope this helps clarify about the Avatar & Sanskrit words.

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    • yeah, thanks for your contribution. do you agree with this theory?

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    • i didn't finish reading it yet.

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    • ok gotcha.


      wait, the sanskrit part was at the end....

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    • i skimmed.

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    • this was mindblowing. nice work, great theories.

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    • Well, to some Chinese cultures, reincarnation is just being reborn. They don't say anything about the soul. You have no memory of your past life. Curiously enough, this resonates the Greek theory too: if you are chosen for Elysium, and you choose to be reborn, you must bathe in the River Lethe to forget your memories of the life you just died from.

      Maybe all the people in the avatar world get reincarnated, reborn. However, perhaps, only the avatar can remember. So, in a weird way, they would be the same person - the avatar, and different people - Aang, Roku, Yang Chen, Korra, Kyoshi, etc. I do agree with your theory in most part, though.

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    • MoonAsh wrote:
      Well, to some Chinese cultures, reincarnation is just being reborn. They don't say anything about the soul.

      By definition, your soul is your self, your being, your [whateveryouwannacallit]. So being reborn means your soul goes to another body to live another life.

      As for the greek thing, i guess the avatar equivalent would be the past avatars getting left behind in the river.

      MoonAsh wrote: Maybe all the people in the avatar world get reincarnated, reborn. However, perhaps, only the avatar can remember.

      The avatar can't remember - that's what the avatar state is - when he does remember.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:

      MoonAsh wrote: Maybe all the people in the avatar world get reincarnated, reborn. However, perhaps, only the avatar can remember.

      The avatar can't remember - that's what the avatar state is - when he does remember.

      I correct myself: only the avatar can call on his past lives.

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    • I think maybe they are the same reinincarnated spirit, but hey have different thoughts, beliefs, ideas and opinions. The past lives are like a little jammed drawer in your mind and you can open in if you tugg hard enough. These people had your spirit, but not your heart, or your identity. They were you but not are you.

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    • Also, the idea that there are, in fact, two dual spirits within each incarnation of the avatar is plausible. The idea that each life, and the experiences of that life in the physical world are unique, yet part of a unified whole is present in several religions that deal with reincarnation. The Avatar's spirit is part of the duality that exists within all things. It is unique, and each Avatar can have his/her own identity. So, Korra, Aang, Roku, etc, can experience the same pleasures and pains of being part of the world, for the Avatar must be part of the world if his duty is to the world. But he/she is also tied to the same greater spirit of all his past lives. For example, in the episode where Team Avatar goes to the swamp, the man there says that time and death are illusions. Katara's mother, Yue, all of the ones that the gang loved were there, seperated only thinly, and counciously. That's why your theory makes sense in many ways. The concious self can only account for so much. So, it makes sense that the Avatars, across many lifetimes, can all be the same person, and he could have existed in the spirit world prior to the need for a balance within the divided four nations. Yet, he can also be seperate, and each life can be both an uncouncious projection of the physical world, brought on by the illiusion of time, the only way human beings can aquire an understanding of the world. This accounts for  a real, unique individual, whose councious identity can be a unique experience, one that trancends the illusions of time. For example, we wouldn't like it as an audience if, when Aang died, his life would move on into Korra, and his spirit would simply be a projection in the spirit world. We want his connections from his unique life experiences to remain with him in death. We want him to be with Katara, Gyatso and his other friends after death. (Regardless of shipping) We want Korra to remain part of Mako's existence after death, too. However, we do have to understand that Korra, Aang, and the other Avatars are one in the same, yet they are unique, and have their own experiences that are entirely part of their physical lives on earth and part of their lives in the spirit world, after death. This explains why each Avatar is part of a different Nation, has his own personality, ideas and love interests, yet also has the power to harness his pasts. The presence of duality is there . It has to be there in a show which is based on some concept of duality, unity and oneness. Also, I'd like to point out that we do, in fact, live in the west, and have a limited, westernized understanding of concepts that are thought of and understood in a way slightly foreign to us. There are some concepts, in Avatar which are hard to grasp living in the West, even though the show is based in the U.S. All in all, I'd like to say your theory is great! It made me think!

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    • Thanks for the feedback, and glad to hear it made you think! although i disagree that there are two dual spirits in each incarnation: each past incarnation is the memories from that lifetime, i think. I can't wait for that episode where it is finally explained!

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    • I have a question. Wouldn't there have to be two spirits in the body of an Avatar? Aang was born the second that Roku died. That means that the baby who would be Aang was already in existence 9 months before Rokku died. Doesn't that mean that the baby had a spirit of it's own and that Roku's Avatar Spirit just passed on to Aang's body? If Roku had lived Aang would've still been born since he was already a fully formed baby. So, wouldn't he have a soul all his own and the next Avatar would get the spirit when Roku died? I guess I'm trying to say that if the Avatar is reincarnated into a newborn as soon as the previuos one dies, doesn't that mean the baby would have a separate human spirit too? Or does the baby have no soul until it takes it first breath?  I'm sorry if this sounds confusing, but your post was really good and really made me think

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    • thanks! and glad to hear it made you think! and no it's not confusing (i was worried mine was! lol) it's just a bit long-winded (no offence  :)  ). I love talking about this stuff with people.

      your thought is one of the theories i mentioned in my post (the one about the avatar having two seperate spirits in the same body) 

      it's technically possible, cuz we haven't been told for sure yet, (i can't wait for those promised episodes!!!) but i think my theory better explains some situations and quotes we've heard (like roku telling aang, "aang you are me." If there were two seperate spirits, then roku couldn't be aang)

      remember, avatar is 1. fantasy, and 2. based off [real world] eastern religions, not Christanity. that means that, like you said, babies born in avatar might not have their own soul until they have taken their first breath or something.

      some other possibilities are that 1) if aang did have his own soul before roku died, the avatar replaced aang (so i guess that would mean the real aang was never born, his body was just used by the avatar...ooh that's weird now that i think about it...) also, it could be that 2.a) if the avatar is near death, fetuses/newborns don't get souls until the avatar has a host/won't need them, or that 2.b) somehow the next (unborn) body for the avatar is an exception, and all other normal babies do get souls. (so...when the baby is conceived, it's body is marked as the next shell for the avatar to live another life in, and if the avatar doesn't need it, it gets a normal soul of its own. an unmarked (normal) embryo/fetus would just get a soul as normal)

      hope that helps!

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    • [No offense taken :)] These are good explanations. I also wondered if the Avatar could "replace" the original soul. This is why I love the show. It gives us a lot to think about and discuss. I can't wait for Book 2 of Korra either! It's called "Spirits" so I'm sure a lot will be explained about them and hopefully more episodes like "The Avatar State" and Korra/Aang like Aang/Roku ahead!

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    • I completely agree with you - even though it is geared toward "y7" it's still a great show for all ages.

      I remember seeing a thread a while ago where a user was going to use a contact he had to ask a canon source (not the creators? maybe gene yang?) some questions for an interview (that i think was going to be posted in the BSST) and wanted some ideas for questions the users wanted answered. i think we should find out who that was and see if they (or really anyone) can get this thread to an official source - it would be great for some official input.

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    • Yeah. It would be great to hear from the creators and writers. That's probably unlikely until everything's aired since they don't want to give away future plans. After all the episodes air (and maybe comics come out) we can probably ask anything

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    • still be nice to get them to say something about this...like if we're on the right track or not - any idea who that user was?

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    • No. I hadn't heard of it before

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    • intersting theory. I'm more inclined to a mix of your first two. I see Aang as being his own personal self, whom the avatar spirit just happened to possess. If Aang died in child birth before he were born the avatar spirit never would have been incarnated into him, therefore, it would be reincarnated into a different airbending child. The cycle would not have moved onto a waterbender yet, because, even if Aang is alive within the womb, (heart begins beating at week 6, yet advanced cognitative functioning is not present until much, much later) Roku was still alive. Also, Aang said he never wanted to be the avatar, implying that, had he not been the avatar, he still could have been his own person. If the avatar were a single person/spirit then Aang saying he never wanted to be the Avatar, implies he wished he never existed. Of course, this can't be looked at from solely a scientific source since the show is based off of mythology and spirituality as well. But, I agree with you, it would be nice to get an episode in Korra or the comics that confirms the idea once and for all.

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    • Aang saying he never wanted to be the avatar cannot be taken as evidence - aang is the avatar, but remember, he was a 12 year old kid whose previous memories were wiped when he died on the volcano, so his wish doesn't mean he didn't want to exist, but that he wants a different role to play in the world. roku once told aang, "i am a part of you" and another time, "aang, you are me."

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    • If anyone here is familiar with Star Trek, would the Avatar be similar to the Trills in that series?

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    • please make an account (or log in)

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    • although i am unfamiliar, i just looked at the trill page on the wiki. in my original post, i mentioned three theories, and the trills would be similar to the second theory, although there are many differences. the symbiont would be the Avatar Spirit, which passes to each new incarnation at the death of the previous one (aang, korra, ect - analogous to the trill)

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    • When Roku says that to Aang it is meant in a spiritual way, not literally. Aang's soul is a reincarnated form of Roku's. So, Aang can still be his own personal self. Because, although his soul was once that of Roku and all the previuos Avatars, it is transformed (reincarnated) in every new life, making it different. Of course, both our arguments are pointless from a scientific standpoint, since there's no proof that a soul actually exists. People gain their personalities and senses of self based partly on their genes and mainly on their environment, that is, their interactions with others as they grow up.

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    • but this is a tv show, and science doesn't apply in the same way as it does in the real world - this argument isn't from a scientific standpoint. and roku did literally mean he is part of aang. And what you said is going along with my theory - "aang's soul is a reincarnated form of roku's"  your soul is your self, so saying aang's soul is roku's soul is saying they are the same person. which is the case, because aang isn't a host for the avatar, he is the avatar. each time he is born, his expierences and new set of genes shape who he is for that lifetime, like you said, same as everyone else, the avatar just gets to do it time and time again. remember, by definition, you are your soul, you self, your sense of being, your whateveryouwannacallit. also, by definition, reincarnation means you pass into another new body to live another life. so roku and aang and korra and kyoshi and kuruk are the same person, even if they are shaped differently by different expierences.

      did you read the entire original post before commenting?

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    • The term avatar means "world teacher" or "Messiah" iirc.

      But in the Avatar universe, I believe it means the Earth Personified.


      (And yes, tl:rd)

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    • The term 'Avatar' means incarnation, appearance or manifestation. I think that the Avatar is an dependant spirit, which acts as a soul, for coming to earth. 

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    • Great theory, but here's mine. The Avatar is a deity. Each life, it gains knowledge and wisdom, used to give to the next Avatar. The Avatar collects characters, personalities, and wisdom each life it is in. The Avatar is like God. he is in charrge of keeping balance and order in the world.

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    • AvatarIonathan wrote:
      Great theory, but here's mine. The Avatar is a deity. Each life, it gains knowledge and wisdom, used to give to the next Avatar. The Avatar collects characters, personalities, and wisdom each life it is in. The Avatar is like God. he is in charrge of keeping balance and order in the world.

      You fall short when you say "deity". A deity is inherently something higher. The Avatar is, in fact, the spirit of the planet if I remember correctly

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    • i think of the avatar as a human spirit, which fits really nicely with the bridge between the worlds thing: the avatar is part of both.

      or maybe the spirit of the physical world.

      spiritception.

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    • I know I'm being semi-blasphemous here, but think about it like Jesus, sort of: the Avatar doesn't have a human spirit, just a human body. The spirit is different than other humans, and THAT'S what makes the big difference between the Avatar and other benders. 

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    • i agree with you.

      i justify the accused blasphemy with this thought: avatar is a fantasy, and one that follows eastern religious patterns, and people like us who over analyze it understand that it is no more than fantasy, and just want to understand the thinking/dynamics behind it.

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    • I respect your opinion, Arthur Keane, but I don't think the writers based the Avatar off of Christianity or Catholisicm. It was more so Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Shinto. You can read it for yourself on the Influences On Avatar: The Last Airbender page.

      http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Influences_on_Avatar:_The_Last_Airbender

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    • @AvatarFan96:

      I wasn't suggesting that that had ANYTHING to do with it. However, it's an easy way to explain it.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:

      although i wonder how it is that each past avatar seems to have his/her own consciousness...maybe they don't? lemme know what you think about it)


      I think they do have seprarate consciousnesses. They may all be the same spirit, but that spirit is living as a new person every time. Each one has different thoughts, personalities, ideals, and experiences. Since the Avatar spirit is trying to understand humans to protevt them, it makes sense to keep a record of all the lives it's lived. That's where I think the reicarnations having their own minds comes in. What would be the point of doing this over and over if you were just going to do it the exact same way? They need to be different or at least perceive that they're different to teach each other (really the spirit to trach itself) how to balance out the world. Appearing as a past life is, in my opinion, a way to communicate to the current Avatar that their human mind can comprehend. Even though they are all one being, that idea is too complex to wrap ine's mind around. It's easier to treat them as individuals because they lived individual lives. That was really a lot longer than I planned. I hope I wasn't rambling, but when I try to think about this stuff it blows my mind. Hopefully, there's a drop of sense to be squeezed from this lemon of a post

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    • i think of it like tom riddle's horcruxes from harry potter, without the evilness.

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    • So when you think about it, can the Avatar ever truly be evil? If they are their own person, doesn't that mean they form their own opinions, ideas, beliefs, etc.?

      Also, if it is true that Avatars are the "Spirit of the Earth", does that mean when they reincarnate their personality is reflected in the state of the Earth? For example, the Fire Nation became extremely aggressive and destructive the next Avatar, Aang, seemed to reflect hope and peace. 

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    • no, i dont think the avatar could ever be truly evil, b/c of the reincarnation thing. not sure i understand what you mean by your second sentence...

      i don't think he/she reincarnates by the state of the earth, i think that is reflected by the avatar cycle and his expierences growing up.

      why do you say "avatars" plural?

      anyway, do you agree with my theory?

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    • I think it's possible for the Avatar to become corrupt. It hasn't been shown so far, but it could hapen. Imagine the world if Roku said yes to Sozin during Roku's wedding. He would've helped start the 100 year war. The FN would've completely taken over the world. The only upside would be the AN being left alive. The Avatar spirit is the spirit of the Earth, but as a human can make mistakes.That Avatar would have to go totally against what they're supposed to maintain: balance and peace. The reincarnations can do whatever they want, so I could see one baing corrupted esoecially if they were born into a family that raised them to believe negative things. Take zuko. He was never "evil." It's shown that he was a good person, but was poisoned by the way he was raised and later banished by his father. That's how he became "the angry jerk." I don't see why it couldn't happen to the Avatar at somr point

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    • I agree with your theory about the Avatar is a single entity. Also I write "Avatars" plural. I don't know why I do it, even though they are essentially the same person!

      I meant by the fact that each reincarnation is distinct and seperate. Avatar Yangchen is ready to kill her enemies but Avatar Aang, who are both Air Nomads, chooses not to. Avatar Kuruk was always relaxed but Avatar Kyoshi was ready to take action when the situation demanded it.

      I have a question for you: How do you think the Avatar is chosen? (For example, does the Avatar spirit choose who it wants to be? Does it see something special inside a child before its born?)

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    • thanks!

      if you think the avatar is a single entity, why did you say each reincarnation is distenct and seperate?

      to answer your question, (ek had a very similar one) read some of the replies, specifically the exchange between ek and i from feb.20th.

      i don't think the avatar could be evil, b/c even if they made a mistake, their past lives would fix their crooked view, especially if they went into the avatar state, which is when the past lives are not seperate at all, and there is one whole consciousness. roku could have screwed up at his wedding, but he didn't.

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    • Avatar Aang severed his connection with Avatar Roku. Maybe I'm siding with the theory that there are two souls inside the Avatar, the Avatar Spirit and the identity. I've never really put much thought about it, but the Avatar is very perplexing!

      I'm just hoping they devote plenty of time explaining this in Book 2.

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    • about aang severing his ties with roku: roku is part of aang's unconscious mind, and aang got control of that when he got control of the avatar state. so what was really happening was aang just stopped talking to roku; he stopped summoning him, there was not a spiritual bond that could be broken. (so i guess maybe the avatar could be evil...? jeez, now i really can't wait for book 2! i'll be so disappointed if they don't explain it...) Anyway, i digress: if there actually was some sort of bond/connection that was broken, roku wouldn't have been able to show up to korra in endgame.

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    • What do you think about an Avatar who never had their identity revealed? Do you think one of their past lives would tell them at some point? I'm asking because Aang wasn't able to talk to Roku until he was in the FN on the winter solstice. If Aang hadn't known he was the Avatar, he would've never gone there and wouldn't have been able to contact Roku. He also would've never run away and would've died during the AN genocide, but the question goes for any of his past or future lives if they weren't told they ere the Avatar or if the next Avatar wasn't discovered for some reason. Korra, so far, is the only one who started bending other elements as a toddler, so I don't expect any random kid to try bending outside of what they're "supposed" to bend. Hiw do you think they'd find out or would they ever find out?

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    • idk, but it's interesting for sure. i get the idea that at some point they would figure out who they were, like one of their past lives would come to them in a dream or something (think the avatar and the firelord), or maybe they'd do a korra and bend the other elements. or maybe there would be something that would trigger the avatar state.

      if they never found out, i think it'd suck for them in their next life, as they wouldn't really have any solid memories to look back and reflect on, they'd have to dig a little deeper to talk to the the last set of memories. and going with the voldemort theory, (where each past life is like a horcrux) it'd be pretty wierd for the past life to figure out they are the avatar after they're dead. (but that last part doesn't really seem possible....)

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    • That would suck. That life wouldn't have any experiences to pass on. Plus, the world would have to go without an Avatar. Imagine all the chaos that could come from that for however long they live. I hope they get into that in Book 2 LOK. The only Avatars we've seen contacting other Avatars knew they were Avatars. I know you believe they're singular, I'm just saying "Avatars" to say they're appearing to another and not that they aren't the same person

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    • imagine korra deciding to go way back to look for advice, kinda like a pick at random thing, and the dude didn't even know he was the avatar.

      dude: "oh, that's why i was such a powerful bender...."

      korra: *facepalm

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    • "I thought everybody could bend sand and water at the same time. Isn't that how beaches were made?"

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    • but if he bent more than one element, then he would have known he was the avatar....or at least someone would have, and told him.

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    • i believe in the avatars are all different but have the same purpose becoming the new donor of the avatar spirit making them all the same being but also alowing them to be diferent and being able to roam the spirit world after death in stead of wat the article said when an avatar channels another they just find witch lifetime it was and preety much give them there memories and make them concious again.I believe anyone of the avatar spirits can see wat the current see's and if they see someone connected to there lifetime endangering the current avatar they can simpily conjour them selfs throught the currents body protecting them from that imidiant danger

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    • i'm not so sure that the wiki article is correct when it said that the past lives of the avatar live in the spirit world - we never see aang literally meet them there like other spirits, they just kinda appear - so i think maybe the avatar's past memories that are in his unconscious go with him to the spirit world (they would have to because if they actually are memories then they're part of him/her) then manifest as we see them do. AGT, thanks for actually reading the whole OP. it sounds like you believe there are two spirits in the avatar's body - the avatar spirit and the current incarnation?

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    • I like your theory :) It makes sense. However, I still think that an avatar and a bender should have a child that can bend 2.5 elements, but without avatar state, because bending is still a physical thing, but avatar state is a spirutual thing. The physical aspects, I believe, should be passed down.

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    • thanks :)

      bryke once stated in an interview that bending is partly genetics and partly spiritual. they didn't want a high class race of people who could bend the elements dominating a lower class race of people who couldn't bend. the reason the avatar bends all four is because it is the spirit of the planet in human form. (so...how did wan become the spirit of the planet...confusing, hope they explain it well). if it was pass-down-able, then the avatar would have to get the ability to bend more than one from his/her parents. the avatar's genetics only code for one element, hence the reason they learn that one first, and only pass that one onto his/her children.

      "...still think that an avatar and a bender should..."

      what about the avatar and a non-bender?

      and i appologize for the nit-picking, but why do you say "an avatar" instead of "the avatar"?

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    • Because each avatar is still a separate person haha. And an avatar an a nonbender? That's four and zero, whose average is two... so two elements lol. But if the avatar is the spirit in human form, then I don't think that the avatar should be reproducing with humans, either way.

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    • the whole point of my theory was that each avatar is still the same person haha. so how do you believe the reincarnation thing works if they're seperate? also, what do you think of the quotes roku said to aang? ("i am a part of you," and "aang, you are me")

      quick blip on the avatar state: i briefly saw in another thread that you said the avatar state should make the avatar completely mastering all the elements. but since the avatar state is only what the past lives have learned, that's not possible: if the avatar hasn't learned any of the subskills in a past life, then the avatar state couldn't make them a master of it.

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    • What? No, it's not. The avatar state is also the perfect state of bending for each avatar. How else do you think that energy bending works?

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    • @Amonoatak

      Energybending has nothing to do with the avatar state. It's the original form of bending used before the bending of the four elements and the avatar's existence

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    • @Earth Kingdom Then why can the avatar only use it? Hold on, let me look at the page for avatar state on here haha.

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    • Well so far only Aang has had it taught to him. He just happened to be the avatar and was able to teach Korra because his past is her past, but it seemed that no one in Aang's time had even heard of energybending. Also, I don't think it stops with taking and restoring bending. I think there must be uses for it that just haven't been explored yet. It was originally used by everyone, but I think it'd be close to impossible for a normal bender to learn since they can only learn one form of bending. It's the same reason that a waterbender can't firebend. When the original benders learned from their sources, they were locked in a particular style. The avatar is unique because he or she can bend all the elements so learning to energybend shouldn't be too extreme

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    • I was almost sure that avatar state was the perfect bending state of ALL avatars to have ever lived combined.

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    • It is. I was talking about what energybending is

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    • Oh, well, why haven't there been any benders of energy and their own nation lol? Yoooooo omg what if Amon had turned out to be a single bender of energy, instead of Noatak haha?

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    • The avatar state is a defense mechanism, designed to empower you with the skills and knowledge of all your past lives. The glow is the combination of all your past lives, focusing their power through your body. Or something.like that.  But if that's true, then how did wan use the avatar state? People were saying that he did in the trailer...maybe they missed something? Also, every time energybending is used, the avatar doesn't ne essarily use the state. It's just the regular energybending glow like aang vs ozai, not necessarily the avatar state.

      Sorry for the typos and stuff, my phone keyboard is acting wierd.

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    • Exactly... and that's why I think that the avatar state is just the perfect state of bending, period... and, if you're not the first avatar, then you also have inside of you the previous avatars, but all of these avatars are at the perfect state of bending, combining to kick some but lmfao. I really want to learn about Wan... and also his number and nationality... he's dressed up as an airbender, but I'm pretty sure that the cycle is "water, earth, fire, air" because, after all, that is how seasons go from beginnig to end of the year... winter, spring, summer, fall (and a bit of winter at the end)

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    • it's a cycle...there's no beginning or end. it could go water earth fire air, but it could also go fire air water earth, air water earth fire, and earth fire air water. doesn't matter how you order it.

      the AS is pretty much bending abilities perfection, but because the avatar is remembering millions of bending expierences, and having all that extra chi from his unconscious mind to super power any bending technique. but if there's some technique (i.e. bloodbending) that no avatar has learned before, then the avatar state won't grant the ability to use that technique any more than not being in the state.

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    • But, yeah, the wiki does say that the avatar state allows the avatar to channel all cosmic energies... so, if the avatar can channel these energies, then I think that he or she can bend every element perfectly. And that goes for all the avatars ever to exist haha.

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    • @Amonoatak

      About your question of why someone can't energybend and bend their element too:

      The nations are named after their elements, but energybending goes back to before the elements were used so their were no nations of water, earth, fire, or air. When people started bending the elements, they gave up just bending their own energy. After that, it became a lost and unnecessary art. The only people who could potentially become energybenders now would have to be people who can bend an element since every in the past, energybenders became elemental benders by studying an animal or the moon in water's case. It might be possible someone else besides the avatar could learn energybending, but unless there's more to do with it than taking/giving back bending they won't need it

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    • Btw, I understand that the moon has a strong pull on the tides of the ocean, but I thought that that whole moon thing was kind of stupid... solar tides are half as large as lunar tides, but the sun still has an effect on the tides. Full moon makes sense, though. That still pisses me off because if the firebenders have suns, then why do they get an animal and waterbenders don't?

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    • Uh the Waterbenders "do" have animals. Tui and La. Aang's the only one to realize they were spirits the others thought they were just fish.

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    • I mean actual animals who can teach them the element AND who each waterbender can keep as pets... like Aang and Roku had Appa and Fang, respectively... although earthbenders don't domesticate badgermoles...

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    • Mermaids?

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    • YES! I mean, they have dragons, flying bisons, and badgermoles, so why the hell not? Lol!

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    • mermaids that eat people and sing songs that drive people crazy?

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    • Lmfaooooooooooooooo let's just stick with mermaids that swim and talk XD But then I'd want, like, the actual waterbenders to be mermaids lol... how about dolphins, so that waterbenders can have a cool pet lol?

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    • A Kraken or Blue Whales, Orcas?

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    • YEAHHHHHHHH HELL YEAH :D Well, not blue whales, because they're meat eaters XD By the way, if the first avatar (Wan) could use avatar state, then doesn't that mean that along with all the other avatars' bending, each avatar is bending perfectly, at full potential? Like, all four elements are perfectly mastered in this state, by ALL avatars born so far?

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    • Yes that's the entire point of the avatar state. Your other lives are working through you at 100 capacity.

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    • Yeah, and all of the avatars are at 100% capacity, correct? Including the current one... because the chakras are all unlocked.

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    • Exactly correct Amonaotak.

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    • eh, not exactly correct. unlocking the chackras is just one way to master the avatar state - roku did so by meditation, and korra through energybending.

      getting a little too far off topic here, but wouldn't regular koi-fish be a good enough original bender? but i totally agree with you, that it's stupid that waterbenders don't have an original animal.

      melnibone, what do you think of my theory?

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    • Yeah, haha, dolphins or something. What pisses me off, though, is that blood and metal bending and lightning redirection were discovered so late. When the avatar hits avatar state, then all elements are bent perfectly by him or her, This is why I think that, when Wan first hit avatar state, then (since he was then able to bend every element perfectly) he should've been able to bend blood and metal and redirect lightning and then the villains should've been the bloodbenders... the show was good, but very inconsistent, like, not organized.

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    • no, the show was done fine, with a few minor exceptions. the reason the avatar can't blood/metal bend or generate/redirect lightning in the avatar state is because he/she hasn't done it before in a past life. the state is the combination of the past lives, which yes, results in some powerful bending, but not the perfection you describe where they can do basically anything.

      did we really see wan in the avatar state though? i mean, c'mon people, it was kinda hard to see his eyes and stuff...i'm thinking he was just bending all four at once, and people were all like "ohh, avatar state." it would be stupid if he was in the avatar state, because he didn't have any past lives.

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    • Fine... but, still, bloodbending was kind of... blatantly obvious... 75% of the body is water... and metal is refined earth. Lightning is technically not even fire... bloodbending and metalbending are both just normal bending of the element. Bloodbending and metalbending make more sense than lightning bending makes because there's no cutting the corner: bloodbending is pure, flat out waterbending, metalbending is pure, flat out earthbending. Therefore, if lightning could be discovered, then the other two elements should've had their forms of bending forever.

      And I think that the show was done stupidly because water and air benders could fuck a lot of shit up, but they were downplayed. First of all, the Southern Water Tribe losing to the fire nation navy irked me beyond repair, because, outnumbered or not, there is NO excuse for losing to ANYONE when you have a South Pole AND ocean in front of you, ALL of which are under your control. You can easily drown and freeze the ships. That's without bloodbending, I'm saying.

      If we saw Wan in avatar state, then my theory is confirmed: that avatar state is all elements bent perfectly. It also irks me how, if no one discovered thos forms of bending before, then how can the person be called a master at the element? No, Aang is not a master, even, because he never learned sand, metal, lightning, or blood bending... master means that you know the element inside out. The only earthbending MASTER is Toph... there are actually a lot of master waterbenders now, but the first true waterbending master was Hama... the firs true firebending master was Iroh... when you know all that there is to know about an element's bending, THEN you are a master.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      eh, not exactly correct. unlocking the chackras is just one way to master the avatar state - roku did so by meditation, and korra through energybending.

      getting a little too far off topic here, but wouldn't regular koi-fish be a good enough original bender? but i totally agree with you, that it's stupid that waterbenders don't have an original animal.

      melnibone, what do you think of my theory?


      I like it and you make a very good point that I forgot about Roku and Korra so thank you for reminding me of that. But remember that the first time the Avatar state was used by Aang was when he was under a "Incredible" amount of physical and mental stress. So I figure that in the beginning the Avatar State is a defense mechanism to protect the Avatar, like when you can do incredible feats like lift a car by yourself because your scared, that the Avatar State is like that until you can actually control it.

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    • @Amonoatak

      To be fair, knowing all of an element's subskills doesn't make you a master. They make you really knowledgeable of your element, but aren’t necessary to master the element. It's just using the elements in different ways. If subskills equaled mastery then the avatar has never been a master and that would mean it has ever become fully realized. Mako knows all of firebending's skills, but he's nowhere near Iroh's level or Azula's and she hasn't learned to redirect lightening. Subskills are a nice addition, but are no substitute for mastery of the element in and of itself. You don't need to (and really can't) sandbend if you don't live in the desert or on a beach. The only reason Toph learned is because she realized how weak she became in the desert, but most earthbenders never even come in contact with sand. Also, metal and bloodbending were discovered by necessity in certain situations. Toph only discovered metalbending because she was in a metal box. Most of the time, earthbenders are surrounded by their element so they don't need to find it in places thought impossible. Waterbenders typically live in the North or South Pole where water is everywhere. Hama only resorted to bending the water in living things because she was left without any water in any other pace. These skills were developed in prison conditions that the normal bender wouldn't encounter so knowing how to use them doesn't make you a master. It makes you creative and resourceful. These two were masters before they discovered their subskills and would still be if they never did. The best example is Katara beating Hama before she had learned bloodbending. She had beaten Hama before Aang and Sokka showed up and gave a distraction that forced Katara to bloodbend her. So, Katara would've won on pure waterbending alone if they never interrupted and that makes her a master waterbender. Otherwise, she would’ve been no match for Hama even with the full moon on both their sides. Katara learned bloodbending instantly after it took Hama years to develop it and only used it twice. She was the best waterbender on the show even without before she learned its most dangerous technique

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    • Well, technically, Katara did have to bloodbend herself to break Hama's grip. And, yes, it does matter. And I know, you're right, that's exactly what I'm implying, actually: that none of the avatars are true masters. If you are a master of an element, then you know it inside out, all its forms. I won't lie; the only true firebending master in my opinion is Iroh (and maybe the new Iroh, if we learn more about him) because he can do all of fire's subskills AND to a degree of mastery. Mako could get there with time, I think. He's already a REALLY good firebender, you know. Also, it makes no sense that seismic sense was discovered so late, because the badgermoles themselves are blind... aren't the earthbenders supposed to learn from them anyway. Btw, just sidenote, I think that aerosense should be a thing, too, if you're a blind airbender.

      Anyway, back on topic: I agree, the only true firebending masters so for are the Irohs and, personally, I think that Mako's getting very close (he's a VERY good firebender), all of the airbenders are airbending masters (since air's pretty clear-cut, although air could be a very powerful element to use if the airbenders use it the right way), the only true waterbending masters are Hama, Katara, Yakone, and his sons, and the only true earthbendning masters are Toph and Lin, because they can use all forms of earth inside out to a degree of mastery.

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    • Well, Mako is good but it's a streych to say he could beat Ozai, Azula, or Roku. Even Iroh, as great as he was, didn't think he could beat his brother. And Lin hasn't been shown to have a mastery of sandbending. And earthbenders don't need seismic sense. Toph only used it because she, like the badgermoles, was blind. While it is useful for detecting your opponent's movements, the truth is that no one else would even try to learn it unless they couldn't see or were trained by someone blind. Badgermoles taught the original earthbendrs, to bend earth but now that it's a known skill the original masters don't need to teach every earthbender howw to earthbend so they don't really learn from them

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    • Roku, I don't think Mako can take. I mean, duhhhhh... Roku's an avatar. I think that Iroh was way more powerful than this brother, but he knew that it would not look honorable for a brother to kill his brother for a throne. I mean, I'd place Mako a little above Zuko, but I think that, if not now, then, with not too much practice needed, he could stalemate Ozai... and Zuko could match a sane version of his sister, remember? Fine, got me there, since we haven't seen Lin sandbend yet... that said, I truly believe that the Irohs are the only firebending masters and that Toph is the only earthbending master. I think that, if Mako practices some more and learns lightning redirection, then he can get to that level, too.

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    • He said (paraphrasing), "if I could defeat Ozai, and I'm not sure that I could, history would see it as a brither killing a brother to grab power." That means that he sees Ozai as more powerful than him in addition to it being the wrong way to end the war. Also, I really doubt Mako could stalemate a guy Iroh wasn't even sure he could beat. Apparaently, he did redirect lightning already and being able to fight eveny with Ozai would mean working his way up to Azula, then Iroh, then Ozai's level. Also, Zuko did improve tremendously during Book 3, but he caught Azula in the middle of a mental breakdown when he managed to fight evenly with her and it still wasn't a clear viictory for him even before she took a shot at Katara. Being the avatar doesn't guarantee victory, The avatar state will give you all the experience of your past lives, but without it you're just a talented bender who can use all the elements. Look at Aang. He lost a bunch of times and was killed. 

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    • But Iroh can redirect lightning. He's at least tied with Ozai, in my opinion. Being the firelord doesn't guarantee you a victory, because Ozai cheated his way to the throne and used Lu Ten's death as reason to be firelord. Anyway, Zuko was EVENLY matched with Azula, not better than her, when he had come newly learnt from the sun warrior temple and he fought Azula in the boiling rock. This was before she went insane. Before Mai and Ty Lee defeated her. She was still cold, calm, and calculated. But Zuko matched her. I think that Ozai and the Irohs are only one tier ahead of Azula... mind you, I think that a full grown Azula, when she's Ozai's age, would be the most powerful firebender in all "Avatar" history... better than Ozai or any of the other ruthless firelords, because Azula's crazy good at 14.

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    • Ozai cheated his way to being fire lord, but that doesn't explain why Iroh would second guess his own skills in comparison to his brother's. And are you talking about Uncle Iroh being tied with Ozai or General Iroh II? IF it's Uncle then yeah if it's Iroh II no. If Mako was on an Iroh or level, he wouldn't have had so much trouble against the equalists. Crazy bloodbending leaders are one thing, but he was bested by the nonbending mooks. Also, if Zuko was so much better than Azula in her normal state he wouldn't have had so much trouble with her unhinged one. He should've been able to clearly beat her if that were the case It was even while she was crazy

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    • Are you serious? Zuko DID beat Azula! I'm sorry but fighting dirty does NOT make you the winner. If Katara hadn't there been for Azula to aim her lightning at (or Appa), then Zuko WOULD have finished her off. However, Azula knew that Zuko and Katara were friends (which I personally think should've made it to the next level), so she aimed her lightning at Katara and Zuko intercepted because he didn't want Katara to get hit... and then Katara finished the fight for Zuko from there, kicking Azula's ass. Zuko would've done no differently, if it had been a fight in which Azula was forced to fight clean. I never said that Zuko was BETTER, but, in "The Boiling Rock", when he was breaking out of the prison with Sokka and Suki, Azula still had her sanity. This was before Mai and Ty Lee betrayed her. Zuko was matching her blow for blow. They were equally matched. And Iroh II was extremely good, and we only got ten minutes of screentime for him, but he was an awesome firebender. I think that he might be as good as his great grand uncle. Zuko, after the sun warrior temple, was even with a sane Azula (as seen in "The Boiling Rock") and better than the insane one (in the finale, Azula ahd to fight dirty in order to get even the playing fields for herself). I think that Iroh and Ozai are tied, then. So, Mako just has some more training to do, and I'd say that he's on Zuko's and Azula's level right now. I think that he needs some more practice until he's on Ozai's and the Irohs' levels.

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    • If you notice in the post before my last I said before she took a shot at Katara. I didn't count that because it has nothing to do with Zuko's level of strength. That wasn't an Azula victory. My point was that if he were so even with her in her right frame of mind, then he should've been able to beat her during the Agni Kai. He didn't. If he had, she wouldn't have been able to strike Katara because she would've been taken down. Not handed a chance to attack. He baited her and it backfired instead of just taking her out. I'm not saying Mako and Iroh II aren't good, but to compare them to Iroh is too much of a compliment. Iroh II > Mako. If Mako has the potential to be on Uncle and Ozai's level that's like saying Iroh II will one day surpass them both making him stronger than anyone on either show. Both of those are a real stretch of the imagination. I will say that we haven't seen enough of Iroh II to judge him fairly, but I doubt he's close to his great great uncle

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    • Also, I still don't agree with you that it made sense for blood and metal bending to be discovered so late, because, if lightning, which is not even fire, has been around for so long, then how can pure waterbending and pure earthbending, which are actually DO deal with water and earth, unlike lightning bending (which does not deal with fire), then blood and metal bending should've been discovered at least as early as lightning.

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    • Because they weren't needed. The Fire Nation discovering lightning makes sense because they were bent on world domination. They would look for an edge wherever they could find one. Metalbending isn't obvious. Most earthbenders don't look at metal and think of earth. Metalbending was thought to be impossible. Toph only dicovered it because she was forced to just like Hama only discovered bloodbending because she had no other way to bend. Most benders aren't trapped in prison without any access to their native elements so they don't need them. Waterbenders live in places full of water so they don't need to bend rats and prison guards to free themselves from a prison cell. Same with earth. Earthbenders llive in places with an abundance of earth so they don't need to find the earth in metal with the seismic sense they don't use because they aren't blind. My point is that if you don't need these skills, you don't have a reason to master them. If you live in a rural area, why learn metalbending? If you live in a forrest why sandbend? It's all about necessity and subskills aren't necessary for everyone to use so everyone doesn't learn them

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    • What about the dangerous animals in the arctic? Out of all the avatars to ever exist in this era, wasn't there even one time that an earthbender got trapped in a metal box and needed to escape? Wasn't there one time that a young waterbender got attacked by a pack of wolves or a polar bear or great white shark and needed to bloodbend?

      Oh, also, although this is off topic, I find it weird how the water tribes live in the poles of the earth when this is HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE! It doesn't matter if you can bend all that ice that you live in, because you would still freeze to death. Especially when Korra wears a tanktop in the South Pole -_- That's like making the fire nation live in an oven, because they have fire all around. It just doesn't work like that. Also, how are firebenders, the ones who live on the equator and bend an element that's already hot, lightskinned, while the ones who live in the cold, icy weather are darkskinned? -_-

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    • If they were trapped, they died, but I doubt that anyone got trapped in a metal box. That kind of thing doesn't just happen. And when it does, metalbending isn't an immediate option. Just knowing there's earth in metal isn't enough to bend it. Toph needed to "see" the earth before she could bend it. Any sighted earthbender would be stuck indefinitely like Yu and Xin Fu. Also, it seems to be implied that Yakone's family practiced bloodbending in the North Pole before or while Hama was discovering it in a FN jail.

      The climate is cold, but I think we're supposed to assume that they're not as insanely cold as the ones irl. Real people live in the arctic and survive so it could be that the poles aren't our poles and more like Canada and Alaska's really cold regions. Maybe because the looks were inspired by the Inuit people who are that skin tone and the FN is based on China Japan where people are lighter

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    • I think that the skintones of the fire nation and water tribes should be switched. But you know how you said that the fire nation is based on China and Japan (which is true)? Same way, the water tribes are based on the Native Americans. Still, though... you shouldn't be dark when you're in such a cold region and so light when, not only are you in a hot region, but you have close contact with a hot element. And you're right, actually. People do live in the arctic. Fair enough. But NO ONE lives in Antarctica -_-

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    • Well the real people the WT is based on live in cold climates and are darker skinned than people in the cold regions of a place like Europe. If the WT people were real, they wouldn't be as dark as they are on the show because they would be flesh and blood instead of pencil and ink. As far as the temperature I'm just gonna use the easy answer and say it's a cartoon so it's not supposed to be accurate XD

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    • Actually, I just checked a credible source for this information. Millions of people do, in fact, live in the North Pole. While no one lives in the South permanently, this is because "Antarctica is protected by a 1959 treaty that established the continent as a place to be used only for peace and science—though several thousand scientists and support staff periodically inhabit the area in the pursuit of research" (WorldWildlife.org. World Wildlife Fund, n.d. Web. 03 Aug. 2013.), proving that it's not farfetched that the water tribes live in the poles. Fair enough. Their skintones, however, are NOT realistic >:o

      Also, I will never get over how irked I got in that scene when the fire nation captured the southern waterbenders. That pissed me off so much. They were fighting people with the element naturally weaker to theirs and, oh yeah, did I mention that THEY WERE IN THE SOUTH POLE AND SURROUNDED BY AN OCEAN! THEY HAD A HELL OF A LOT OF WATER SUPPLY! KATARA ALONE HAS TAKEN DOWN TWO FIRE NATION NAVY SHIPS, SO THE SOUTHER WATER TRIBE SHOULD'VE COMFORTABLY TAKEN THE NAVY! THEY COULD'VE OWNED THAT OCEAN AND THAT NAVY! THAT COULD'VE BEEN THEIRS! Sorry for my rant 😂!

      So, pretty much, the water tribes living where they live makes more than enough sense, but the skintones still don't. By the way, I think that this is how bloodbending would've made sense to discover: After the Southern Water Tribe would've kicked the fire nation navy's ass, Ozai or Azulon (whoever was the firelord at that time) should've sent in the air force and dragons, making it still easy for the waterbenders to vanquish but harder to beat. Then, the waterbenders should've been so desperate that they would need to resort to bloodbending. That's my opinion lol :)

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    • Also, that explains the skin tone too since the Inuit/Eskimo people are copper/brown-skinned But with the exception of Amon and family, they'd need the full moon to bloodbend and they'd need to actually know they could bloodbend and be willing to risk losing their sanity by doing it

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    • Very true, actually, haha. Speaking of bloodbending, I still find it very "convenient" that we never heard about Toph or Sokka again after that hearing with Yakone... also, that Zuko and Katara were the only Gaang members who weren't there and were still alive (Aang died because of the energy that the iceberg had sucked out him). I wonder if that's how Sokka and Toph died, tbh.

      Also, Zuko DID dominate Azula. If she had shot the lightning right at him, then she would've been toast. She fought dirty, though, just like always. In "The Boiling Rock", Azula was still sane and she and Zuko had a clean one-on-one fight and both were evenly matched. Ik that Iroh II> Mako. I think that he's at Ozai's and Iroh's level because he's also a part of the fire nation royal family. Remember, the new firelord is his mother. He's the general of the army. We only saw a little bit of him, and, in that time, he could shoot lightning and fly fast. But this all just speculation, since we know very little about this Iroh. I definitely think that Mako is at Zuko's and Azula's level, though.

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    • Well I hope Sokka and Toph did not die after Yakone's bloodbending.

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    • ^^^^ Well Iroh was thought to have killed the last dragon.

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    • That's a theory I've never heard before . I have heard some pretty strange thoughts on the show so I can't believe this one (that actually makes sense) never crossed my path. It's possible that killed them, but I just assumed they got up after Yakone was taken out and went on to live their lives. Unless he snpped their necks or did something to their organs that we couldn't see, I think they survived

      What I'm saying is, he should have been able to end the fight before she got the chance to shoot at him. If he was her equal on a good day then he should have been her superior on a bad day. But, he chose to drag out the fight and beg to be attacked. That's only if he was really her equal before she snapped. If he was trying his best, which I believe he was, then him trying to goad her into using lightning was a way to seize his victory since his real edge over her was that he could redirect lightning. He saw that as his only chance to win what was becoming nothing more than a back and forth battle and not a clear cut victory. Of course, that backfired because Azula always looks at every opportunity. She sees a chance and takes it. That's how she took advantage of the situation she walked into in Ba Sing Se, that's how shw took advantage of Aang's guard being down while goin into the Avatar State, and that's how she took advantage of Katara's presence and Zuko's caring nature. Zuko, who isn't a master manipulator, didn't think that through and was beaten mentally by the one he later put in a mental institution. But physically he wasn't beating her and that's why, in desperation, he took the risk of inviting her to use lightning.

      I'd put Iroh II at a level I don't think the show has. If we see more of him at some point, I'll be able to judge him better. Right now all I know is he's good in crisis situations, but not really how strong he is/who he's comparable to in the old series

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    • Yes, he was. Did you not see him knock back so hard that hit the ground a few times before falling down? He beat her like a two cent prostitute. He had her on the floor, grunting in pain. Then, she got back and Zuko just mocked her for not shooting lightning. But he clearly dominated her in that fight. He WAS winning. Just because you can beat someone doesn't mean that you do it instantly.

      For example, Toph fought those earthbenders when we first met her. While had the upper hand and won, she didn't do it instantly. If Katara hadn't been there and Zuko'd gotten more time, then he'd have won.

      Also, Katara when she fought Hama: Katara was losing at first and then beat her eventually.

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    • That's because earthbending practices neutral jing. The whole point is waiting and watching. Firebending isn't an inherently patient art. It's very fast-paced and doesn't allow or require the bender to take their time. I'm not saying he was losing, but I'm not going to say he was winning either. Do I think he could've won eventually had Katara not been there? Yeah. But, do I think that it would've been by a lot? No. I think that fight could've gone either way. It's possible that Zuko could've still been taken down even if it wasn't due toa cheap shot. He improved a lot, but he wasn't better than her at that point even though the odds were against her given that she was losing her mind more by the second. And the only reason I brought any of this up is because you said Zuko caught up to Azula after meeting the dragons so Mako could be on his way to Iroh-land in terms of bending mastery. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this

      Only because Katara was hesistant to beat an old woman. If you notice she snaps out of it quickly after begging Hama to stop. When she realizes that Hama won't leave her alone or stop taking prisoners, she fights back and it's not at all a one-sided fight anymore. That's because in the beginning Katara wasn't even fighting. It's not like she was losing then found some inner strength and perservered. All she did finally let loose on a crazy old woman she had admired and respected a few minutes before

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    • i had a reply ready, but then i lost internet connection, so here's what i can remember of it:

      okay, so most of this argument was tl;dr, but there are a few things i would like to say.

      1. Martial arts: bending is based on real life martial arts. being a master is widely considered being a black belt. becoming a black belt takes many years of practice, training, and perfection. that said, there are many degrees of black belts. (first degree, second degree, ect. In Tae Kwon Do, it goes up to ninth degree). Even though you are considered a 'master' there is still room for learning. Which is another thing: the term master isn't really used. it implies that one has finished training and is done learning the fighting art, which is never the case. even if there are no more belt ranks for you to gain, there is always more expierence to be had, and more learning to do. you may have mastered every move, every technique, and every practice form, but there will always be more room for learning. In universe, you are considered a 'master' if you are quite adept at bending your element. it doesn't mean you can't be beat, nor does it mean you have mastered all the subskills. furthermore, pakku officially declared katara a master at the end of the first season.

      2. Metalbending: amonoatok, you have marveled at how metal bending wasn't discovered before it was. however, it would have been impossible for that to happen. metal didn't exist before the war. in the war's early years, the fire nation began mining ore and smelting it into metal, which was a substance they knew the earthbenders couldn't bend, so they couldn't damage any of their stuff. also, remember earthbenders don't actually bend metal. true metalbending is impossible. earthbenders sense the small fragments of unpurified earth in the metal, and bend those, which results in "metalbending." they bend the metal by proxy. personally, i disagree with that, as metal to me is earth, but the viewers don't get to decide that. anyway, seismic sense was required for metalbending's invention because someone had to realize that metal has earth in it. (with some exceptions, like the mecha tanks, which were made of metal so pure that there was no earth in it to bend.) until toph came along, there was nobody to figure that out.

      side note: platinum, the metal the mecha tanks and stuff were made out of, is a bit of a plot hole. it's a very soft metal, so not a good choice for building weapons out of. but that's a topic for another thread.

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    • Earthbending is the essence of neutral jing itself, although when firebending is used by someone with skill and lofty ambitions, it can be a great defensive skill, such as when Azula removed out of her way Aang's rocks at The Drill, or in Crossroads, when Katara attempted to knock her down with a huge wave.

      But there are few capable of true defensive moves with firebending, while Water/Earth bending has greater possibilities.

      And yes, Intel. metalbending failing at platinum? a hole indeed. 

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    • qin, what do you think of the OP?

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    • Most interesting thoughts, although I personally believe that each avatar is a different person, which shares one thing in common [The Avatar Spirit], and the "memories" of the past lives are bring forth because of this connection with this same, continuous spirit.

      So it's basically like the Avatar had 2 spirits, one for himself as a person, and another one for the Avatar State, which has been integrated into him ever since there was the 1st avatar [something which we'll get to know through Wan? I hope so]

      I liked when you mentioned the origin of the world 'avatar' ITSELF, since its a rather confuse term nowadays, with these associations with internet avatars and now, Cameron's movie... 

      Anyways, its origin meaning a god incarnate in a mortal form means like you said, that previously to the existence of the Avatar, the Avatar Spirit was a powerful entity that existed on the spirit world, that later somehow merged into Wan creating thus the first Avatar.

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    • My replies don't seem to be going through...

      EDIT: Of course it works when I say that!

      Anyway @Intel

      Sorry for the massive paragraphs on your thread XD

      @Qin

      That was my thought too when I first commented on this thread. I figured there were either two spirits or the Avatar Spirit replaced the spirit of the infant at birth. If it's the second one then maybe hoever happens to be born in the right nation the second before the Avatar dies gets the spirit? Hopefully, Wan will show us somehow

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    • @Intelligence4 I agree with you that metalbending should be more than just proxy. And it doesn't matter if we're the viewers, we're still allowed to call out PIS.

      @Kingdom Just wondering, who do you think is more powerful, Jeong Jeong or Azula? If Jeong Jeong, then do you think that Jeong Jeong is Iroh and Ozai level or below that?

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    • Earth Kingdom
      Earth Kingdom removed this reply because:
      I'm posting somewhere else
      23:29, August 3, 2013
      This reply has been removed
    • http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13636405/fpart/all/vc/1

      check out that link - i got it from facebook, and i couldn't help but think of the avatar while reading it. aside from everyone being the same person, that's pretty much how i imagine the avatar working. the avatar state would be when he remembers everything.

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    • Crap.

      Now I wish I hadn't read it. I'm back on the same track. At what point does it stop? To what end? Why do this over and over again? What does it accomplish?

      Not barking at you, Intel, noble intentions deserve adequate praise. It's just all of the questions it leaves and I already can't sleep.

      Kudos for your thought process, sir. Even if the story leaves me in a restlessness of mind.

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    • Interesting article. I really like the idea that every person is basically themselves, very cool idea.

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    • @intel

      Saw your post hrs ago, but didn't comment. Consider my mind blown. That's crazy, but so cool. Part of me hopes that's truly how life is. The other, thinks it's weird if I'm my own mom XD

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    • ^LOL!!!

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    • so here's an idea/analogy i thought of: yue became the moon spirit, perhaps in the same/similar way wan became the spirit of the planet?

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    • Very interesting, Intel. And Yue was not dead when Arnook put her in the water, either. And so, if Wan was alive before he became the Avatar, (we're back to this again, LOL! You must be getting tired of my questions, no doubt.) does that mean he did or did not have his own spirit?

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    • not getting tired of your questions at all, haha! love talking about this...the questions just make me improve/confirm my theory. i just hope it's true. actually, i just hope they explain it like i did haha.

      so you're saying yue did or didn't have her own spirit? they never explained it very well, (if they did somewhere outside the show like in an interview or something, could you show/tell me about it?) but here's how i think about it: yue was born, with her own spirit, but she was sick, and couldn't be healed with even the best Healing nor the primitive medical knowledge they had then. so tui used his super-healing powers (being the moon spirit, he'd have the most powerful waterbending powers aside from the avatar) and healed her, and also did some spiritmagic to spiritually link them somehow. (also, weird how spirits seem to be able to see into the future (koh and tui, ect). i'd like to learn more about that.) so then when tui died, yue became the new moon spirit and tui is no more.

      or it could be that yue never had her own spirit, and tui put a part of himself into her body, making yue an avatar of the moon spirit. (actual definition of avatar, not like aang/korra/ect). so basically "yue" never existed, it was actually tui the whole time. in that case, when tui died, yue functioned kinda like a horcrux. although i'm not sure if tui would have refused into one whole spirit or what. although the first theory makes more sense b/c we saw yue as the moon spirit multiple times after than (escape from the spirit world, the awakening, ect).

      so finally about wan. wow, this turned into such a longer post than i intended. i think he did have his own spirit when he was born, and his spirit became the avatar spirit. like every avatar that's ever been is wan. so wan would have been born normally with a soul just like every other person, but then through all the stuff we're going to see, his spirit becomes the spirit of the planet - before him, there was no spirit of the planet.

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    • So then did Aang and Korra when born have a spirit that's themselves as human, and then the Avatar Spirit?

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    • I think that the avatar spirit just takes form of humans, that's all.

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    • About Yue, it seemed like she was a normal girl. at birth and since she was dying the Moon Spirit gave her some of its life.  I don't think that was because Yue was born with it because then her hair changed to white. I think if Yue was a healthy baby, she'd be helpless in trying to save the WT by becoming one with the Moon Spirit and no one would even suggest it like Iroh did. She'd be no different from Katara. If some other child had a rare condition and was taken to the Moon Spirit instead, I think they would'e been saved and had Yue's white hair and ability to give their life to Tui

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    • @ek

      that's what i was saying :) Good point with the hair. question was, did she have a soul, or was she born without one as just a body, a shell?

      @empress

      no, i'm saying aang is korra. and all the others. actually, i believe avatar extras stated this in "the deserter."

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    • Confuzzled.

      Okay. So are we talking Yue's spirit was replaced with part of Tui's, or maybe her failing spirit was housed with a portion of Tui's spirit?

      If her spirit and Tui's are joined together, now, it would make sense that she expressed feelings for Sokka as she floated (no better word at the moment) away.

      I seem to remember Sokka saying that his girlfriend became the moon. (Boiling Rock?) Sokka may not be known for his eloquence, but how would that work if what he said was literal? Tui had/has a physical presence in the Spirit Oasis and the moon still shines. Yue descends to encourage Aang. Did Tui give up being the moon, too? In other words, did Tui and Yue separate as spirits?

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    • i think tui no longer exists, period, unless there's some kind of spirit heaven. there are, of course other possibilities, which is what i was explaining, but i think the most likely situation, looking at the "evidence," is that tui used his superspiritmoonwaterbendinghealing powers to Heal yue when she was little, and also marked her somehow (more spirit shenanigans) to replace him when he knew he'd die. (seriously, it'd be nice to get some kinda confirmation on if spirits can see into the future or what...). So then zhao killed tui, and his body was an empty shell, which yue filled, and became the moon spirit.

      another thing, i wonder if the gender of the koi fish affects the balance in any way. tui was male, and la was female, (right? that's what i always thought...) so when yue (female) replaced tui and joined la, there are now two females, instead of one of each. wonder if that effects anything? disregard this if i'm wrong about the genders....

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    • I think either she replaced him or they merged. I think it's possible they share one spirit now

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    • I kinda haveta think the spirits do see into the future. Tui/Yue as the most obvious example.

      Just remembering what Iroh said to Yue, "some of it's life is in you". How does a spirit go about separating pieces of itself? I know you said something about the horcruxes, but I don't think the spirits go about murdering people. I could be wrong.

      I never really thought of it that way. The gender of the fish, that is. Now that we know that Mother of Faces (name gives gender away) is the mother of Koh...as you pointed out the issue of process... (Do we really want to know?)

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    • Earth Kingdom wrote:
      I have a question. Wouldn't there have to be two spirits in the body of an Avatar? Aang was born the second that Roku died. That means that the baby who would be Aang was already in existence 9 months before Rokku died. Doesn't that mean that the baby had a spirit of it's own and that Roku's Avatar Spirit just passed on to Aang's body? If Roku had lived Aang would've still been born since he was already a fully formed baby. So, wouldn't he have a soul all his own and the next Avatar would get the spirit when Roku died? I guess I'm trying to say that if the Avatar is reincarnated into a newborn as soon as the previuos one dies, doesn't that mean the baby would have a separate human spirit too? Or does the baby have no soul until it takes it first breath?  I'm sorry if this sounds confusing, but your post was really good and really made me think

      This is how I see it, two souls. I think the existence of Wan pretty much proves this idea...he was his own person long before he became the vessel for the spirit of the planet and became the very first Avatar. Yangchen, Kuruk, Kyoshi, Roku, Aang, Korra, they all have their own individual, spirit, identity, soul....whatever you want to call it, that makes them, them. The Avatar Spirit is something else entirely that chooses an already existing person to basically share a body with. If the Avatar Spirit had chosen someone else after Roku had died, then Aang would have still existed, he just would have been some random monk child and never have been the Avatar, and likely had died along with all the rest of his people and it would have been another Avatar who came along and ended the Hundred Year War.....which probably would have wound up being longer than a hundred years, but that's beside the point and I'm getting off track ^^' Anyways, I think it's fairly definite by this point that each Avatar is their own separate and distinct person that the Avatar Spirit chooses and basically shares a body with. Maybe in the merging process they become one and the Avatar Spirit sort of absorbs the pre-existing spirit or soul and becomes one with it.....I don't really know what happens after' the Avatar Spirit moves in, but beforehand they're definitely something individual and distinct.

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    • @orderedcoma

      eh...nah. that kinda undermines the whole incarnation thing...which has been stressed so much. the definiton of reincarnation basically says it's the same soul. also, while some of them have been questionably canon, avatar extras stated that "avatar roku is avatar aang", along with "all the others."

      i think you might be not fully grasping the definiton of reincarnation, and what it actually means to be reincarnated. when you get reincarnated, you're wiped clean, you become a whole different person. if you (all of you) are thinking they are seperate because they seem like they have different personalities and whatnot, then you might not fully understand what it means to reincarnate. i don't mean to sound mean...but...

      @snarky

      i agree, the spirits must be able to see the future somehow....maybe like rumple?? lol. "some of it's life is in you." hmmm.....interesting...i'm very confused now. maybe by life he meant life-force, like chi? OOH, IDEA: yue was sick b/c she was born w/o chi! that would explain the healers not being able to heal her too! then tui gave her some of his chi (damn, waterbending is getting way too close to energybending...) and then when he died....she replaced him? okay, i'm still foggy on the last part.

      yeah, there's still that issue of process....uh...ya know what, nevermind. wait, i still do wanna know if koh has a dad.

      @ek

      how can they share a spirit? your spirit is what defines you, so...

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    • I know it sounds crazy, but what if when Tui gave Yue life, some of her spirit merged with Yue's. When Tui was killed and Yue gave that life back maybe it was like they were one? Some kind of bonding happened with them since the Moon Spirit appears as Yue to Aang with power intact and the fish is alive so I'm thinking they're one being now. Maybe not human Yue, but whatever celestial spirit that was living in her. Idk, it's the best sense I can make of my theory

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    • By the way, Tui's female and La's male

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      @orderedcoma

      eh...nah. that kinda undermines the whole incarnation thing...which has been stressed so much. the definiton of reincarnation basically says it's the same soul. also, while some of them have been questionably canon, avatar extras stated that "avatar roku is avatar aang", along with "all the others."

      i think you might be not fully grasping the definiton of reincarnation, and what it actually means to be reincarnated. when you get reincarnated, you're wiped clean, you become a whole different person. if you (all of you) are thinking they are seperate because they seem like they have different personalities and whatnot, then you might not fully understand what it means to reincarnate. i don't mean to sound mean...but...

      I know full-well how reincarnation works....the way the whole Avatar Cycle has been established though, the concept simply can't work the way it does in most Asian philosophies. Saving Aang's ninety-nine year dissapearranc, there aren't gaps where the Avatar is missing, they're usually found fairly quickly after they're born, or in Korra's case if their powers manifest. Like the Air Nomads for instance knew that Aang was the Avatar very quickly because of his choice in toys. Their isn't a 9-month gap in time where the Avatar can't be found at all...as soon as the previous Avatar dies, a new one is picked from a baby that is just born. The baby already existed before that individual became the Avatar, that leaves it pretty obvious that the Avatar Spirit (what makes the person chosen the Avatar) and the actual Avatar (the person who is chosen) are two completely distinct and separate beings before they become the actual Avatar. This is further backed up be Wan, he was obviously his own person and being before he became the Avatar.

      Now, what happens after the Avatar Spirit moves on from the previous Avatar and into the new one is a huge unknown. The two could remain distinct souls, or they could not, that is where the discussion lies, imo, because I think it's pretty obvious that until that person actually becomes the Avatar, they are very distinct and separate beings. Even in the world of Avatar, two things cannot occupy two different places at the same time. The Avatar Spirit cannot be both Aang while he's still alive as well as Korra, before Aang dies, Korra is not is the Avatar and doesn't become so until after Aang's death and the Avatar Spirit is freed up to move into someone else. Even when going into the Spirit World (the closest anyone can get to "two places at the same time"), it still doesn't work, they can't be conscious and aware of their surroundings in the Physical World if they're in the Spirit World, their body might be left behind, but their essence, soul, spirit (whatever you wish to call it), what makes them, them, is not present. Spirits are held to at least this rule of not being able to be in two places at once just like physical beings are. Tui and La weren't in the Spirit World at the same time they were in the real world, same with Hei Bai. The same would be true of the Avatar Spirit as well. It can't be both the previous and current Avatar at the same time.

      I think each new "host" for the Avatar Spirit is merged with it, or is absorbed by it, or absorbs it after the previous Avatar has died and the two are then one and the same. It's not really the person being reincarnated in the usual definition of the word, just the Avatar Spirit, which has been merged with other individuals or otherwise become one with them through its time in the physical realms. I honestly don't see how it could otherwise work with the way that it's been set up by Bryke.

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    • there is more evidence to the fact that they are not seperate and distinct than there is the the assumption that a fetus has a soul - regardless of when one gets a soul irl, babies apparently don't get a soul until they are born in avatar - much further up on this thread, i think around febuary, i had this discussion with ek. also, even if the past souls were to merge, then it would still be one person.

      as far as the previous avatars go, they arent' in the spirit world - any time the current avatar spoke with his past lives in the spirit world, it wasn't like they were there waiting for him - they appeared (out of thin air) after he needed/called for them. also, unalaq said to korra that the past avatars live on inside her, and roku explicitly told aang, "i am a part of you."

      @snarky

      i think i forgot to mention this last time, but you said somethign about horcruxes and how it doesn't make senes b/c nobody was killed. what i was getting at was just the concept of splitting you soul, and still having it be you, not an actual horcrux where you have to kill something. that said, avatar is different from hp, so if horcruxes did exist in avatar, the rules would be different - like you wouldn't have to kill someone to make one, and it might not even be such a  bad thing to make one - it could have something to do with the spirit world or something, instead of cheating death.

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    • Just more like finding a weakened or empty vessel if I read right. Agree.

      And here's the next question. In dividing itself, does a spirit divide equally all the aspects of it's nature and power? Or could it be that only certain aspects went with it? Tui for example, Yue did not have any awareness of Tui's presence. Probably not until she actually became the moon spirit. But it seems to me that Tui had to have placed an immense amount of power in Yue for her to "become the moon".

      Still confused.

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    • Snarky-O'Snapper wrote:

      Still confused.

      yup.

      bryke, is that the point?

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    • How?

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    • to vote in the war room, you click the little + sign in the upper right hand part of the page, it's like green and blue, right above the text. then you type what you want to say, then type four tildes (looks like this Intelligence4 (wallcontribs) 20:41, October 1, 2013 (UTC) on my keyboard, it's just to the left of the 1 key, very upperleft below esc) and hit publish. your edit should then appear on the page per usual.

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    • Thank you, Sir.

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    • I'm pretty sure that the avatar is one with its incarnations, not a separate soul. Note how Yangchen explained this to Aang in Escape from the Spirit World. Also, the avatar is always referred to as the same person as its past life. That's why Korra's bending could be taken away and restored: she was one with the avatar spirit. If not, then the avatar could just have found a new "host". That type of relationship is like the Phoenix Force with Jean Grey (before they died together and got reincarnated as one wholesome spirit, like how the avatar is with its incarnations) or, if you've ever watched Naruto, the tailed beasts with the people inside of whom they're sealed.

      That said, I'm pretty confused myself -_- On the bright side, it seems like the next episode will tell us exactly how the avatar works :D

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    • Earth Kingdom wrote:
      I have a question. Wouldn't there have to be two spirits in the body of an Avatar? Aang was born the second that Roku died. That means that the baby who would be Aang was already in existence 9 months before Rokku died. Doesn't that mean that the baby had a spirit of it's own and that Roku's Avatar Spirit just passed on to Aang's body? If Roku had lived Aang would've still been born since he was already a fully formed baby. So, wouldn't he have a soul all his own and the next Avatar would get the spirit when Roku died? I guess I'm trying to say that if the Avatar is reincarnated into a newborn as soon as the previuos one dies, doesn't that mean the baby would have a separate human spirit too? Or does the baby have no soul until it takes it first breath?  I'm sorry if this sounds confusing, but your post was really good and really made me think

      I truly doubt the Avatar world takes into play all of the things in our world, seeing as Pema was able to ride on Boogie and was not pregnant in Episode 1 of LoK but in a few days gave birth to Rohan

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    • ^Precisely agreed with Phoenixbender. Although Earth Kingdom made a good point. I think that all these doubts and confusions will be covered soon haha. However, it is rather obvious that the avatar is one with its incarnation.

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    • an the moment of truth has arrived...the long awaited episodes have aired....

      So here's a little breakdown of the results and conclusion. after testing my dynamics of the avatar hypothesis against the canon, it turned out that i was actually mostly correct. the fire sage said "she is recalling her earliest avatar memories" which means that it is indeed the same spirit reincarnated over time, and past avatars are memories of the current. however, it is also two in one: the avatar state is rava. basically, in the body of the avatar, it is [some version of wan]+rava. (that makes what roku said about the avatar state senseless, but...). Rava also said "i will be with you for all your lifetimes" further meaning it is still wan each time. (does that also indicate that everyone reincarnates? it would make sense with the whole following eastern religion thing).

      also, with the people learning bending, wheelmaster had it right on another thread: it wasn't a retcon. the lion turtles may have given people bending abilities, but they learned how to use them from the animals. (wan and the dragon).

      here's a little bit of another reply i typed elsewhere, but i still think it applies here.

      so many theories are correct..."i will be with you for all your lifetimes"  "she is recalling her earliest avatar memories" Basically my dynamics of the avatar theory is correct, except the avatar state is rava. (then what's the deal with what roku said??) also, there is two spirits in one body - rava+wan. interesting that the first avatar was a firebender. also, i will be with you all your livetimes...does that mean that everyone reincarnates? i think so...? also, how was wan able to bend in the spirit world?? i thought that wasn't possible. also, SKY BISON!!! so now we know what happened to them...maybe that's the same deal with the lemurs too? on a negitive note, the episode was very predictable. as soon as i saw a few of the leaked details, i predicted the rest of the episode...mainly how wan became the one to bend all four elements. also, i think we have the answer as to why all air nomads are airbenders - the lion turtle was flying, so he gave all of them air power to be able to fly onto his back. here's another question: the lion turtle said they would no longer give people the power of the elements. so...how are people benders in the era of the avatar? is it because they are reincarnations of the original benders? also, the original firebenders don't seem very sun-warrior like...plot hole? this episode really did seem to raise more questions than answers now that i think...erm, write, about it.

      seriously, i wanna know the deal with the avatar state: we know now that it is rava, but that totally conflicts with what roku said about the avatar state being the combination of the past lives...

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    • here's another thing: if wan could talk to rava, why couldn't any of the other avatars?

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    • "(that makes what roku said about the avatar state senseless, but...)."

      Not really. Rava only offered Wan the ability to use all of the elements at once. The actual power of the Avatar State does seem to come from the multiple lifetimes.

      "(does that also indicate that everyone reincarnates? it would make sense with the whole following eastern religion thing)."

      Yes, it most likely does.

      "also, with the people learning bending, wheelmaster had it right on another thread: it wasn't a retcon. the lion turtles may have given people bending abilities, but they learned how to use them from the animals. (wan and the dragon)."

      That is still a retcon. When will people learn how to use this word? What I said in the other thread still stands. I will most likely eventually compile a list of plot holes in "Beginnings" so that I don't have to keep regenerating it.

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    • @Intel

      Maybe the other Avatars either 1) are one with Rava so she is no different from them meaning they can't talk to her or 2) they don't know she exists since they're born with no memories that they are the Avatar. They mentioned her to Korra, but since they're dead now, they're totally one with, and nothing but, the Avatar spirit. So they have constant knowledge to Wan's memories of her in a way they wouldn't when alive because they probably wouldn't think to go back so far

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      an the moment of truth has arrived...the long awaited episodes have aired....

      So here's a little breakdown of the results and conclusion. after testing my dynamics of the avatar hypothesis against the canon, it turned out that i was actually mostly correct. the fire sage said "she is recalling her earliest avatar memories" which means that it is indeed the same spirit reincarnated over time, and past avatars are memories of the current. however, it is also two in one: the avatar state is rava. basically, in the body of the avatar, it is [some version of wan]+rava. (that makes what roku said about the avatar state senseless, but...). Rava also said "i will be with you for all your lifetimes" further meaning it is still wan each time. (does that also indicate that everyone reincarnates? it would make sense with the whole following eastern religion thing).

      also, with the people learning bending, wheelmaster had it right on another thread: it wasn't a retcon. the lion turtles may have given people bending abilities, but they learned how to use them from the animals. (wan and the dragon).

      here's a little bit of another reply i typed elsewhere, but i still think it applies here.

      so many theories are correct..."i will be with you for all your lifetimes"  "she is recalling her earliest avatar memories" Basically my dynamics of the avatar theory is correct, except the avatar state is rava. (then what's the deal with what roku said??) also, there is two spirits in one body - rava+wan. interesting that the first avatar was a firebender. also, i will be with you all your livetimes...does that mean that everyone reincarnates? i think so...? also, how was wan able to bend in the spirit world?? i thought that wasn't possible. also, SKY BISON!!! so now we know what happened to them...maybe that's the same deal with the lemurs too? on a negitive note, the episode was very predictable. as soon as i saw a few of the leaked details, i predicted the rest of the episode...mainly how wan became the one to bend all four elements. also, i think we have the answer as to why all air nomads are airbenders - the lion turtle was flying, so he gave all of them air power to be able to fly onto his back. here's another question: the lion turtle said they would no longer give people the power of the elements. so...how are people benders in the era of the avatar? is it because they are reincarnations of the original benders? also, the original firebenders don't seem very sun-warrior like...plot hole? this episode really did seem to raise more questions than answers now that i think...erm, write, about it.

      seriously, i wanna know the deal with the avatar state: we know now that it is rava, but that totally conflicts with what roku said about the avatar state being the combination of the past lives...

      I AGREE COMPLETELY! WHAT THE HELL?! IT'S COMPLETELY CONTRADICTORY! It's like Raava leaves the current host's body and finds a new one, right?!

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    • no...i'm not saying that raava leaves and finds a new host. i'm saying that wan and raava are together for all time, and that every avatar is wan. "i will be with you for all your lifetimes."

      also, please please stop quoting so much...

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    • Part of it probably has to do with the fact that this is 10,000 years after Wan lived. We see that for the most part, Aang only talks to Roku and Korra only talks to Aang. Aang was also super spiritual, and it took him quite a while before he was able to contact his other past lives. It had to be dangerous for Korra to go that far into her past lives. The Fire Sages seemed really worried about her. So, unless there was something that could only be solved by the first avatar, I imagine avatars stopped contacting Wan. Wan's life had the most direct connection with Raava so he could communicate with her easily. As time went on, the connection began to get weaker simply because there were more lifetimes in between.

      As for the Avatar State, my theory is that Raava and Wan's souls cannot be separated and have become intertwined so that the Avatar's soul is part human, part spirit. So, when the Avatar enters the Avatar State, they embrace Raava part of them, but also the knowledge that she carries from their past lives. I bet the whole reason Avatars can remember their past lives and momentarily have past Avatars come back through their body is because a they have a spirit part of their soul. Plus, I imagine Avatar Roku probably hadn't ever talked to Wan, so his explanation probably wasn't the most exact. 

      And one last note. I love how you connected this stuff back to Hinduism. From what I can see, that's where a lot of the mechanics for the Avatar come from as well as spirituality in general. Reincarnation, Avatars for powerful gods (or in this case spirits) a cylcial world based on destruction and rebirth, and an epic battle between good and evil are just a few that I've noticed. Raava and Vaatu even sound like Hindi names.  

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    • thanks cojojo.

      even adding more to the hinduism/eastern religions thing, it seems that the avatar is a literal avatar of raava.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      an the moment of truth has arrived...the long awaited episodes have aired....

      So here's a little breakdown of the results and conclusion. after testing my dynamics of the avatar hypothesis against the canon, it turned out that i was actually mostly correct. the fire sage said "she is recalling her earliest avatar memories" which means that it is indeed the same spirit reincarnated over time, and past avatars are memories of the current. however, it is also two in one: the avatar state is rava. basically, in the body of the avatar, it is [some version of wan]+rava. (that makes what roku said about the avatar state senseless, but...). Rava also said "i will be with you for all your lifetimes" further meaning it is still wan each time. (does that also indicate that everyone reincarnates? it would make sense with the whole following eastern religion thing).

      also, with the people learning bending, wheelmaster had it right on another thread: it wasn't a retcon. the lion turtles may have given people bending abilities, but they learned how to use them from the animals. (wan and the dragon).

      here's a little bit of another reply i typed elsewhere, but i still think it applies here.

      so many theories are correct..."i will be with you for all your lifetimes"  "she is recalling her earliest avatar memories" Basically my dynamics of the avatar theory is correct, except the avatar state is rava. (then what's the deal with what roku said??) also, there is two spirits in one body - rava+wan. interesting that the first avatar was a firebender. also, i will be with you all your livetimes...does that mean that everyone reincarnates? i think so...? also, how was wan able to bend in the spirit world?? i thought that wasn't possible. also, SKY BISON!!! so now we know what happened to them...maybe that's the same deal with the lemurs too? on a negitive note, the episode was very predictable. as soon as i saw a few of the leaked details, i predicted the rest of the episode...mainly how wan became the one to bend all four elements. also, i think we have the answer as to why all air nomads are airbenders - the lion turtle was flying, so he gave all of them air power to be able to fly onto his back. here's another question: the lion turtle said they would no longer give people the power of the elements. so...how are people benders in the era of the avatar? is it because they are reincarnations of the original benders? also, the original firebenders don't seem very sun-warrior like...plot hole? this episode really did seem to raise more questions than answers now that i think...erm, write, about it.

      seriously, i wanna know the deal with the avatar state: we know now that it is rava, but that totally conflicts with what roku said about the avatar state being the combination of the past lives...

      Raava and Wan are one singular being. During the fight against Vaatu, while Raava was inside Wan he touched the spirit gate and all its energies poured into him. This allowed for Wan and Raava to completly merged them selves together and become the Avatar. At Wans death, when Raava said "I will be with you for all your lifetimes" She meant that they would live on for eternally in new lives. Each time the Avatar Spirit (Wan and Raava) reincarnates into a new person, that persons spirit merges with the Avatar Spirit and becomes one with them. Basically Wan and all future avatars are Raava and Raava is them, they are one singular entity. They all have their own soul, but it is bounded to the Avatar Spirit, tyed together in a Red Thread of Fate. When the Avatar enter the Avatar State, he/she gains the knowledge and skill of all his/her past lives, because the current person who is the avatar connects to the Avatar Spirit which is connected to all other avatars. 


      As for the Lion Turtles saying that they will stop giving humans bending, meant that they would no longer give them bending, but that doesn't mean they took it away from those who already had it. So all the people that still had their elements could bend and their children would be born with bending powers. That's how it continued threw the years. The Lion Turtles possed Energy Bending which is what allowed them to give humans the elements, my example is the Lion Turtle that Aang met. Wan was a better firebender because he was taught by a dragon, the original bender. That is why he was better. So the animals taught people are to correctly use their bending abilities. 

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    • Phoenixbender wrote:
      Earth Kingdom wrote:
      I have a question. Wouldn't there have to be two spirits in the body of an Avatar? Aang was born the second that Roku died. That means that the baby who would be Aang was already in existence 9 months before Rokku died. Doesn't that mean that the baby had a spirit of it's own and that Roku's Avatar Spirit just passed on to Aang's body? If Roku had lived Aang would've still been born since he was already a fully formed baby. So, wouldn't he have a soul all his own and the next Avatar would get the spirit when Roku died? I guess I'm trying to say that if the Avatar is reincarnated into a newborn as soon as the previuos one dies, doesn't that mean the baby would have a separate human spirit too? Or does the baby have no soul until it takes it first breath?  I'm sorry if this sounds confusing, but your post was really good and really made me think
      I truly doubt the Avatar world takes into play all of the things in our world, seeing as Pema was able to ride on Boogie and was not pregnant in Episode 1 of LoK but in a few days gave birth to Rohan

      Wth are you talking about?! Pema was indeed pregnant with Rohan during the pilot episode of LoK. Katara went up to Pema and placed her hand on her tummy and said she sensed a strong Airbender. Pema's tummy was even huge! 

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    • @Intelligence4 Ugh, sorry just did that so that you'd know where I was responding. But ohhhhhhhh alright makes much more sense!

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    • Then this episode did flow perfectly, after all :D I wonder if Jaatu is inside of Unalaq, or was inside of Ozai or Yakone, because remember how, when Aang debent them, then there was that battle of souls?

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    • Avatar Minato wrote:

      Phoenixbender wrote:
      Earth Kingdom wrote:
      I have a question. Wouldn't there have to be two spirits in the body of an Avatar? Aang was born the second that Roku died. That means that the baby who would be Aang was already in existence 9 months before Rokku died. Doesn't that mean that the baby had a spirit of it's own and that Roku's Avatar Spirit just passed on to Aang's body? If Roku had lived Aang would've still been born since he was already a fully formed baby. So, wouldn't he have a soul all his own and the next Avatar would get the spirit when Roku died? I guess I'm trying to say that if the Avatar is reincarnated into a newborn as soon as the previuos one dies, doesn't that mean the baby would have a separate human spirit too? Or does the baby have no soul until it takes it first breath?  I'm sorry if this sounds confusing, but your post was really good and really made me think
      I truly doubt the Avatar world takes into play all of the things in our world, seeing as Pema was able to ride on Boogie and was not pregnant in Episode 1 of LoK but in a few days gave birth to Rohan

      Wth are you talking about?! Pema was indeed pregnant with Rohan during the pilot episode of LoK. Katara went up to Pema and placed her hand on her tummy and said she sensed a strong Airbender. Pema's tummy was even huge! 

      Perhaps but my other point stands. A pregnant person was able to ride on Oogie,a flying bison

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    • Earth Kingdom wrote:
      I have a question. Wouldn't there have to be two spirits in the body of an Avatar? Aang was born the second that Roku died. That means that the baby who would be Aang was already in existence 9 months before Rokku died. Doesn't that mean that the baby had a spirit of it's own and that Roku's Avatar Spirit just passed on to Aang's body? If Roku had lived Aang would've still been born since he was already a fully formed baby. So, wouldn't he have a soul all his own and the next Avatar would get the spirit when Roku died? I guess I'm trying to say that if the Avatar is reincarnated into a newborn as soon as the previuos one dies, doesn't that mean the baby would have a separate human spirit too? Or does the baby have no soul until it takes it first breath?  I'm sorry if this sounds confusing, but your post was really good and really made me think

      I would assume the Avatar to be has no soul until it's born and inherits it's predecessor's soul

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    • (bows to Intel...)

      Well done, sir!

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    • don't think that there's just the Avatar spirit because Aang is both Aang and the Avatar so I think it's two spirits in one person.

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    • Phoenixbender wrote:

      Avatar Minato wrote:

      Phoenixbender wrote:
      Earth Kingdom wrote:
      I have a question. Wouldn't there have to be two spirits in the body of an Avatar? Aang was born the second that Roku died. That means that the baby who would be Aang was already in existence 9 months before Rokku died. Doesn't that mean that the baby had a spirit of it's own and that Roku's Avatar Spirit just passed on to Aang's body? If Roku had lived Aang would've still been born since he was already a fully formed baby. So, wouldn't he have a soul all his own and the next Avatar would get the spirit when Roku died? I guess I'm trying to say that if the Avatar is reincarnated into a newborn as soon as the previuos one dies, doesn't that mean the baby would have a separate human spirit too? Or does the baby have no soul until it takes it first breath?  I'm sorry if this sounds confusing, but your post was really good and really made me think
      I truly doubt the Avatar world takes into play all of the things in our world, seeing as Pema was able to ride on Boogie and was not pregnant in Episode 1 of LoK but in a few days gave birth to Rohan

      Wth are you talking about?! Pema was indeed pregnant with Rohan during the pilot episode of LoK. Katara went up to Pema and placed her hand on her tummy and said she sensed a strong Airbender. Pema's tummy was even huge! 

      Perhaps but my other point stands. A pregnant person was able to ride on Oogie,a flying bison

      Uh, so?

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    • @empress

      the two souls are those of raava and wan. aang is wan, and so are all the others. "i will be with you for all your lifetimes"

      @tarrlok

      much better :) and i don't think vaatu had anything to do with the other baddies, but i do think unalaq is trying to become his avatar, much like wan became raava's.

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    • @Intelligence4 If you've ever read or even watched Marvel, then this whole thing with the Avatar is a like the story of Phoenix. At first, Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force were two separate things. Then, with the Phoenix force insid of her, Jean Grey died. Since the Phoenix Force is omnipotent, Jean got resurrected as one with the Phoenix Force itself. Now, this new Jean Grey's name was Phoenix. Phoenix was Jean, Jean was the Phoenix. Then, when Phoenix hits her bloodlusted Dark Phoenix mode, then she's got full access to the unlimited power of what the Phoenix Force used to be. However, since she's too destructve in this state, Phoenix tries to avoid it as much as possible.

      Sorry for getting off topic there, but I understand new things best when I connect them to older things which I already know well >_>

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    • Whoa. I never thought of that, but what if he is trying to become the anti-Avatar? If that's true, I wonder how he found out about Vaatu and the origin of the Avatar if not even the Avatar herself knew until now?

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    • Earth Kingdom wrote:
      Whoa. I never thought of that, but what if he is trying to become the anti-Avatar? If that's true, I wonder how he found out about Vaatu and the origin of the Avatar if not even the Avatar herself knew until now?

      Perhaps Unalaq didn't know that Vaatu existed. But remember in the episode when he came out of the southern spirirt portal and his children (the twins) asked "Were you just in the spirit world?" 


      Maybe when Unalaq went through the portal he ended up where Vaatu was sealed and met him. Then Vaatu told him about his history with the Avatar and etc.

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    • Avatar Minato wrote:

      Maybe when Unalaq went through the portal he ended up where Vaatu was sealed and met him. Then Vaatu told him about his history with the Avatar and etc.

      That makes sense. This is taking a very interesting turn. If he does become a dark Avatar, that will make a great finale if he and Korra have to have an Avatar State vs Avatar State battle. But, since this is only Book 2 and there's two more to go, that would seem like a series finale. My only guess is that there's even more things coming that can top that, or Unalaq is a villain for more than one Book

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    • it could also be that unalaq found about about vaatu and raava during his studies and then it clicked in his brain that if someone could become raava's avatar, then someone could become vaatu's, and in his power hungry-ness, decided to go for it.

      i bet the remaining eps are going to take place over the next few weeks and that the finale will be the HC, and unalaq and korra will duke it out. (korra would be much stronger, b/c she has more past lives, and all four elements, but i'm sure bryke will dream up a way for unalaq to be an equal match - maybe the dark spirits will help him?) then korra wins, and either locks away unalaq as vaatu's avatar, or vaatu will turn on unalaq, and he will be locked up at the end, classic bad guy style. ya know what? i'm calling it. my money's on that one.

      the real question is: what happens to the twins?

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      it could also be that unalaq found about about vaatu and raava during his studies and then it clicked in his brain that if someone could become raava's avatar, then someone could become vaatu's, and in his power hungry-ness, decided to go for it.

      i bet the remaining eps are going to take place over the next few weeks and that the finale will be the HC, and unalaq and korra will duke it out. (korra would be much stronger, b/c she has more past lives, and all four elements, but i'm sure bryke will dream up a way for unalaq to be an equal match - maybe the dark spirits will help him?) then korra wins, and either locks away unalaq as vaatu's avatar, or vaatu will turn on unalaq, and he will be locked up at the end, classic bad guy style. ya know what? i'm calling it. my money's on that one.

      the real question is: what happens to the twins?

      The only way I would think Unalaq could learn about Raava & Vaatu along with the Avatar's origins, would be Wan Shi Tong's Libaray. Because the previews they showed for the pilot episode of book two, show scens from all the epsidoes and one of them had the Owl Spirit himself in it. So I guess Unalaq found some way to get to the Libaray and found the information. There is know other place in the world besides that Libaray that could contain that kind of information on the Avatar.

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    • I think so too.

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    • Hmm, yeah... Wan Shi Tong might have some knowledge. But this really is getting good, now :D

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    • could also be the library at the nwt mentioned in the search part 2

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    • @Intel I think so too.

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    • @Intelligence WAIT THAT MAKES A LOT MORE SENSE! I forgot about that!!

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    • I don't know why you would even want to be a Vatu-Avatar, though. Theoretically, you could do it with any Spirit, ie one that's less of a jerk. You can't even really use the excuse that Vatu is more powerful, because Rava had lost most of her power when she merged with Wan.

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    • He and Raava were equal in power, so merging with him is the only way to eventually be as powerful as the Avatar if you weren't born as a reincarnation of Wan. For someone woh wants power, the jerk thing won't be a problem. Most power-hungry characters are jerks themselves

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    • Plenty of lesser Spirits can defeat the Avatar.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Plenty of lesser Spirits can defeat the Avatar.

      Raava and Vaatu are the most powerful spirits and the oldest. The reason why Raava was weaker was because Vaatu created chaos by turning lesser spirirts into dark spirits and began tormenting humanity. Raava became more powerful then ever by mergin herself with Wan, and together were abled to seal away Vaatu. Without Wan at her side, Raava would have lost the battle and Vaatu would been able to destroy the world. 


      Unalaq merging with any other spirit besides Vaatu would never stand a chance against the Avatar. If Unalaq wanted to became as powerful as the Avatar or more, he would merge with Vaatu.

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    • Plenty of lesser Spirits have shown the ability to defeat the Avatar. Don't complain to me about it, I didn't write it.

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    • If you are talking about the time Aang fought with the panda spirit and such. That is because Aang wasn't yet a fully realized Avatar and he didn't yet know about the spirits and the spirit world that much. But Aang was capable of befriending spirits, with the exceptions of Koh who was just evil and Wan Shi Tong who was just a stubborn old bird. 


      You aren't seeing the big picture is the issue. Raava and Vaatu are natural opposites, only they can defeat the other but can not completly destroy each other because one can not exist without the other. Raava and the Avatar are one being so if Unalaq wanted to defeat Korra he would need to merge with Vaatu, no other spirit will work. 

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    • Earth Kingdom wrote:
      He and Raava were equal in power, so merging with him is the only way to eventually be as powerful as the Avatar if you weren't born as a reincarnation of Wan. For someone woh wants power, the jerk thing won't be a problem. Most power-hungry characters are jerks themselves


      Pretty much! I do wonder if Vaatu will merge with Unalaq, though.

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    • As long as he gets to "fire his lazoooor" on Republic City, I'm in.

      Anyways, if a good spirit could merge with a human, why not the evil one? but if the evil one is accidentally set free, then things will really go down the drain, since he's too powerful to simply merge with a human. He would probably merge with another powerful spiritual entity such as the one which wrecked the ship, or simply putting all spirits on his side, and using the north/south portal as a "warp" from the spiritual to the material world, unleashing spiritual hordes on the humans?

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    • Anybody getting some norse mythology. Like the world tree and the wolf that eats it's roots bringing the whole world down.

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    • I'm wondering though if the Avatar is a spirit inside a human then the human has it's soul first then Raava's spirit. So then how could killing the Avatar in Avatar State end the cycle, Raava would just leave and get her own self back right?

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    • Responses in bold.

      Avatar Minato wrote: If you are talking about the time Aang fought with the panda spirit and such. That is because Aang wasn't yet a fully realized Avatar and he didn't yet know about the spirits and the spirit world that much. But Aang was capable of befriending spirits, with the exceptions of Koh who was just evil and Wan Shi Tong who was just a stubborn old bird. 

      I have my doubts that he could defeat Hei Bai even in the Avatar State, the difference in strength & power between the 2 was just so extreme. Then there was Koh, who may not be a great fighter, but is nonetheless easily able to best an Avatar, even if said Avatar is bent on getting revenge on him. Why would Roku warn Aang not to show emotion against him, if he could just be wiped away by the Avatar State & showed no threat at all? And these aren't even close to being the most powerful Spirits in the first series. Tui & La could each control the ENTIRE OCEAN, way more water than we've seen the Avatar State alone able to handle, & way more element than what went into defeating Vatu. Fast forward to Korra's time, 2 lesser Dark Spirits have already defeated her while she was in the Avatar State. You don't need to be an all-powerful Spirit to defeat the Avatar. Most Spirits are perfectly capable of it. This has been repeatedly established.

      You aren't seeing the big picture is the issue. Raava and Vaatu are natural opposites, only they can defeat the other but can not completly destroy each other because one can not exist without the other. Raava and the Avatar are one being so if Unalaq wanted to defeat Korra he would need to merge with Vaatu, no other spirit will work. 

      You're the one who's not seeing. The Avatar State was never omnipotent, other Spirits were capable of easily matching its power. When you say that only Vatu can equal Rava, you are only taking THIS EPISODE into account. I know that people don't like to hear it, but this episode contradicts many of the others. You're not going to somehow disprove that, because it's the truth, whether you accept it or not. We who point it out are not as profoundly ignorant as you'd like to believe.

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    • He couldn't hurt Koh. He was there to get information from him. It would be pointless to wipe him out before getting it. Besides, Aang wouldn't be able to use the Avatar State to defeat Koh even if he wanted to. In the Spirit World, you can't bend. So, Roku was very right to be afraid for Aang who would be completely unable to defend himself

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    • Yeah, showing emotion in front of Koh would not be smart at all... maybe Korra's ready to face him, now XD

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    • Korra vs Koh??? A Koh would win, absolutely because lets face it Korra's too emotional.

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    • I'm going to miss her smile most of all XD

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    • @Empressofmelnibone I know that haha. I just meant that, maybe now, she's more collected after that spiritual journey

      @Kingdom SO TRUE XD

      @Both Imagine Amon/Noatak against Koh XD Would be interesting, because he's really good at keeping his cool. Korra's probably got beef against Koh, since he stole her wife four lives ago LMFAO XD

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    • Earth Kingdom wrote: He couldn't hurt Koh. He was there to get information from him. It would be pointless to wipe him out before getting it. Besides, Aang wouldn't be able to use the Avatar State to defeat Koh even if he wanted to. In the Spirit World, you can't bend. So, Roku was very right to be afraid for Aang who would be completely unable to defend himself

      You got me here, I derped on this point. Although it does raise interesting questions about whether or not you can go into the Avatar State without Bending, & what that would do if you could.

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    • That's something I thought about once, but I couldn't come up with anything. Is there any way to fight without bending? Maybe there's some spirit power the Avatar hasn't discovered. Spirits might fight in the Spirit World. And, the Avatar Spirit might have a similar way of doing it

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    • My belief is that it would make the character stronger, faster, & more resilient. Then again, I was basing that off of the notion that the Avatar State was just a surge of chi. Now that I know it has more to do with Rava, it might not do anything but make Bending more powerful & bring the user closer to the Spirits.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Responses in bold.

      Avatar Minato wrote: If you are talking about the time Aang fought with the panda spirit and such. That is because Aang wasn't yet a fully realized Avatar and he didn't yet know about the spirits and the spirit world that much. But Aang was capable of befriending spirits, with the exceptions of Koh who was just evil and Wan Shi Tong who was just a stubborn old bird. 

      I have my doubts that he could defeat Hei Bai even in the Avatar State, the difference in strength & power between the 2 was just so extreme. Then there was Koh, who may not be a great fighter, but is nonetheless easily able to best an Avatar, even if said Avatar is bent on getting revenge on him. Why would Roku warn Aang not to show emotion against him, if he could just be wiped away by the Avatar State & showed no threat at all? And these aren't even close to being the most powerful Spirits in the first series. Tui & La could each control the ENTIRE OCEAN, way more water than we've seen the Avatar State alone able to handle, & way more element than what went into defeating Vatu. Fast forward to Korra's time, 2 lesser Dark Spirits have already defeated her while she was in the Avatar State. You don't need to be an all-powerful Spirit to defeat the Avatar. Most Spirits are perfectly capable of it. This has been repeatedly established.


      Now you are forgetting that La the Ocean Spirit used Aang as a host in order to attack the Fire Nation, without Aang, La would not have been able to get revenge. Also Tui & La were both mortal because they gave up their immortality to live in the mortal world. Also in the Beginning episdoes, a whole bunch of spirits ran in fear from Raava & Vaatu, because they knew that they were to powerful for them. So you're being innacurate again. 

      You aren't seeing the big picture is the issue. Raava and Vaatu are natural opposites, only they can defeat the other but can not completly destroy each other because one can not exist without the other. Raava and the Avatar are one being so if Unalaq wanted to defeat Korra he would need to merge with Vaatu, no other spirit will work. 

      You're the one who's not seeing. The Avatar State was never omnipotent, other Spirits were capable of easily matching its power. When you say that only Vatu can equal Rava, you are only taking THIS EPISODE into account. I know that people don't like to hear it, but this episode contradicts many of the others. You're not going to somehow disprove that, because it's the truth, whether you accept it or not. We who point it out are not as profoundly ignorant as you'd like to believe.


      Raava and Vaatu both said that they were natural opposites and only them have a chance to defeat one another. That is the whole point of the Harmonic Convergence, for them to decided what would happen to the whole world!!! If Vaatu had beat Raava, he would have destroyed the world and their be nothing left for when Raava returned. So again you not taking "everything" they say into account. Also the Avatar is quite omnipotent in its "own way". Kyoshi used all four elements to create Kyoshi Island, this feat would take over ten to twenty bender of each element to do what Kyoshi did. 

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    • i don't think bending and the avatar state/being the avatar have anything to do with each other. wan would have become raava's avatar whether he mastered all the elements or not. he just gets a surge of power from the avatar state b/c of the extra energy (chi) from having a powerful spirit channel her energy through you. think about the avatar state, and what it actually is:

      1. we now know that the Avatar is literally an avatar: the incarnation-ness of raava. i don't wanna say incarnation b/c they are still seperate beings, but they are still spiritually bonded very close, so...

      2. when raava channeled herself through wan, he got a power boost.

      3. when the avatar uses the avatar state, he/she gets a power boost.

      4. So going into the avatar state is chaneling raava's spirit - she's in the avatar all the time, but in the avatar state, her presence is shown, and it gives the avatar a power boost.

      5. also, think about this: before the avatar has learned to master the avatar state, they can't control their actions b/c it is raava who is in control. after they learn to control the avatar state, it is the human who is in control.

      not sure how the past lives factor into this, but...

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    • I very much disagree with that. I did not notice any huge difference in the power of Wan's Bending when he was bonded with Rava versus when he wasn't. The only thing I noticed was that he only ever used all 4 elements at once when he was. Wan most likely lacked a true Avatar State, & the extra power does indeed come from past lives. Unless they want to retcon that again.

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    • I'm not sure how "past lives" could give a power boost more than having a spirit in you?

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    • From what was said about it during A:TLA, the experience of the past lives is unleashed at once during the Avatar State. From my understanding, that would mean that the Avatar State should give Korra access to Aang's knowledge of Seismic Sense and Lightning redirection and the power and skill of all the Avatars before and including him

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    • Then why would the Avatar need to "learn" bending at all, they should just contact their past lives and remember bending.

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    • "So you're being innacurate again."

      No, none of what you said was relevant. Tui & La control the ocean with or without Raava, otherwise Aang would have had to stay bonded with them constantly in order for the tides to keep going. The Avatar State just served as a conduit to focus this power. It wasn't adding anything to La's abilities, & in fact could not, because Waterbending had been rendered impossible. The only reason that La was able to control water is because he is water itself. Their mortality also does not preclude them from being able to defeat the Avatar State. And the fact that Raava was portrayed as omnipotent does not change the fact that the Avatar State is not.

      "So again you not taking "everything" they say into account."

      No, you just don't appear to understand what a "plot hole" is. It's when the plot doesn't make sense. You can keep saying that only Vaatu can defeat the Avatar State, but it is obviously not true. The writers have contradicted themselves multiple times. There is nothing that I can do about that, because even if I told you that you're right, I would just be lying. You trying to argue this literally means nothing, it is what it is regardless of whether or not you, anyone else, or even I accept it.

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    • It's because when the Avatar enters the State, he/she not only connects with Raava's power, but all the past Avatar's come together in one body and all share their knowledge and skill with the current Avatar. Wan was indeed one of the most powerful Avatar's in my opinion because he was the earliest Avatar to have a true connection to Raava, being the FIRST. 

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    • Empressofmelnibone wrote: Then why would the Avatar need to "learn" bending at all, they should just contact their past lives and remember bending.

      Because the effect only lasts while they are in the Avatar State. As Aang can now use Energybending on his subsequent lives, it would technically be possible to skip the element learning process, but it is unlikely that this would be done, because the very process of learning the elements prepares the Avatar for his or her job.

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    • Oh ok thanks.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      Empressofmelnibone wrote: Then why would the Avatar need to "learn" bending at all, they should just contact their past lives and remember bending.

      Because the effect only lasts while they are in the Avatar State. As Aang can now use Energybending on his subsequent lives, it would technically be possible to skip the element learning process, but it is unlikely that this would be done, because the very process of learning the elements prepares the Avatar for his or her job.

      Precisely this.

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    • @Neo. Once again you are mixing up what I said, because you want to be right. 


      I never said La couldn't control water!!! I said he needed a host in order to manifest himself so that he could attack the Fire Nation, and he needed the Avatar for that! All you do is take what I say and mix it up into something else, even though its not what I said. What I said was La needed a host so he could manifest himself, stop saying something different when its not that. You aren't reading word for word. 

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    • Again, wrong. I want the plot to not contradict, but it does, & I for one choose not to let bias blind me.

      I bring in my own points in support of what I can plainly see. If you don't like it, if you want a conversation that revolves around what you say verbatim, then talk to yourself. You have nothing to complain about, because YOU started this argument, I am not forcing my viewpoints on you. If anything, you should be following MY points, because that's what you claimed was "all wrong."

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    • You the one who doesn't like what I say, because you argued that I was wrong. 


      If you don't like how the series is, then stop watching it. Because this is how the show is going to be, so don't argue about it having plot holes and such. If you don't like the show because of how it turned out after AtLA, then stop watching LoK. 

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    • People, relax. Let the zen flow. Take a deep breathe. Smile. Live. Laugh. Love. Hug.

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    • Go out and take a walk on such a fine autumn day. The changing leaves are gorgeous.

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    • You know your Buddhism my friend. 

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    • @Empressofmelnibone Yes, I agree completely :D

      @Minato Lol haha not even intentional. I just said that to calm things down XD

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    • When I get stressed I do yoga it actually helps, also a great way to ward against tense knotted muscles and tension headaches.

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    • I like "Legend of Korra," something I've been very public about, so you prove that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You shouldn't start arguments about things you don't understand, & you should start reading & re-reading until you do understand them, because you were indeed the one who picked this fight:

      http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:969814#180

      It's called "scrolling up," unlike some people, I am not foolish enough to make claims about who said what without checking.

      And another thing, I'm under no obligation to follow your orders. I'm going to ignore you now. I suggest you stop picking fights you can't win.

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    • TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      People, relax. Let the zen flow. Take a deep breathe. Smile. Live. Laugh. Love. Hug.

      Sounds like Aang: "love each other, respect all life, and don't run with your spears"

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    • @Earth Kingdom: Indeed Aang would say something like this. 


      @Empress: It is a nice autumn day, the season of Aang's birth. 


      @Tarrlok: Well at least you knew what Zen meant. 


      @Neo: You're just a rude person who can't get along with others. So go ahead and ignore me. Also you did start it, because all I did was gave an opinion and you took it the wrong way. 

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    • Earth Kingdom wrote:
      TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      People, relax. Let the zen flow. Take a deep breathe. Smile. Live. Laugh. Love. Hug.
      Sounds like Aang: "love each other, respect all life, and don't run with your spears"

      After this, I have decided that I am airbender once again LOL XD But, if I lose my temper quickly again, then I will forever have an internal struggle... just like the character whom I dislike LMFAO XD

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    • I agree with Neo completely that TLOK is a fantastic show.

      Aw, Minato and Neo, you guys need to hug. And drink tea together. Iroh+Aang level advice right there XD

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    • My season as well.

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    • @Tarrlok: Sadly you can't give hugs threw computers, because I would if I could. I also very much enjoy tea and I'am right now drinking Jasmine Tea. xD

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    • TarrlokUltimateWaterbender
      TarrlokUltimateWaterbender removed this reply because:
      Satan
      20:45, November 5, 2013
      This reply has been removed
    • TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Earth Kingdom wrote:
      TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      People, relax. Let the zen flow. Take a deep breathe. Smile. Live. Laugh. Love. Hug.
      Sounds like Aang: "love each other, respect all life, and don't run with your spears"
      After this, I have decided that I am airbender once again LOL XD But, if I lose my temper quickly again, then I will forever have an internal struggle... just like the character whom I dislike LMFAO XD

      I'm an airbender too.

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    • @Empressofmelnibone YAYYYYY AIRBENDING *literal air five* XD

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    • Which is funny because i'm an autumn baby and if I could i'd make it autumn all year. But actually I personally believe i'm a airbender who treats their airbending like water with a large splash of fire for my driven and forceful personality but family comes first always.

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    • "Aw, Minato and Neo, you guys need to hug."

      Not likely. Firstly, I'm surly & unpleasant by nature. Secondly, I don't hold grudges, but nor do I go out of my way to be all chummy with people who do things like edit out things they said to make it look like I attacked them unprovoked. Like I won't see the timestamp that says that a day-old quote was just edited 2 minutes ago.

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    • You have no proof that it says what you said it did. So cut the crap, because it didn't say what you make it out to be

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    • A Wiki isn't like a forum.

      http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/Avatar_Minato

      We can see every edit that you make.

      http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Board_Thread:University/@comment-Intelligence4-20121220234616/@comment-Avatar_Minato-20131020082122?diff=prev&oldid=2239330

      And, if we click on "diff" for a particular edit, then we can see exactly what you changed. Also, what you're doing is not only in bad form, it's against the rules:

      http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Avatar_Wiki:Discussion_policy#Content

      "Lying or otherwise grossly misrepresenting a truth

      Quoting another editor out of context to give the impression they hold views they do not hold, or to cast aspersions on their credibility or decency"

      You really need to stop digging this hole.

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    • Either way you still took it the wrong way and is still taking it the wrong way. So stop now before you make things worst, because right now no one cares about this and I especially don't care anymore, so stop continuing what has already ended. Stop picking on me for no good reason and creeping on my profile, all you're doing is harassing me. 

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    • All right, the both of you, knock it off. Let's get the thread back on-track instead of this pointless bickering which is clearly going nowhere and only leading to petty accusations.

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    • I compeltly agree PSUAvatar, I apologize for my bickering. 


      By the way I love the pic you chose. 

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    • Oh durn, I didn't notice that, & it's awesome. I should think of an avatar to use.

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    • @Neo Geez, I'm sorry, didn't mean to trigger you more... just please don't bite my head off -_-

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    • @Minato @Neo Here we are the Earth Kingdom.

      @Kingdom You're going to hate me for that, aren't you? LMFAO XD

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    • I wonder though if the Avatar spirit is Raava and she is the Spirit of Light, why do they say that the Avatar is the Spirit of the Planet?

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    • Whoa, stuff just went down. Now, I'm going to shut up before I dig my own grave XD

      But, breathe, guys. Enjoy the fall weather. Airbending season. Take a walk in the autumn. Laugh. Enjoy. Live. Breathe. Be one with the wind. Be the winnnnnnnnd!!!!!!!!!

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    • Lol. Yes I would be enjoying such great weather unfortunately it's cold and rainy, not unlike my monsoonbenders home.

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    • Oh, really? Where I am, it's nice and sunny XD Perfect weather, imo XD

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    • Haha so what do you think of my new benders? Info is at New Nations 2 and What we were talking about?

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    • Will get there, but I don't have time to do long replies today, since I have a hell of a lot of work from school, plus those absolutely lovely college applications -_-

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    • Uh I remember college applications, best of luck to ya.

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    • Haha thank you :D You and my other older friends on here are too kind :)

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    • Rewatching Beginnings and have to say, i'd buy the second season just for these two episodes alone. Their really helping me with Ethereal and Material and Spiritdance. I might even have a rough draft in the next few weeks.

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    • Me, too :D Well, I actually should get going now, but I will talk to you tomorrow :) Goodbye, Empressofmelnibone :D

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    • Bye.

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    • TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      @Minato @Neo Here we are the Earth Kingdom.

      @Kingdom You're going to hate me for that, aren't you? LMFAO XD

      Let's just hope The Ember Island Players don't decide to follow the new Avatar's adventures

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    • Lmfao you didn't like that episode? XD I want another play like that XD That had me rolling all over the floor XD Much better than Shyamaldingdong's movie XD Either that, or I want to see more MAD versions of Korra... hahaha, The Legend of Dora had me rolling, too XD

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    • I loved t, but I don't think it should happen again. At least not in the same way. If they make fun of them, it'll have to be different and better than the first for me to like it. Since I doubt they can outdo it, I'd rather leave it alone, you know?

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    • Yeah, very true, man. Then, I want something from MAD again. The Legend of Dora was beastly XD Either that, or another Shyamalan movie would be good enough LMFAO XD

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    • Nothing is funnier than Shyamalan trying to make a movie.

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    • I can think of something Twilight movie series.

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    • Hmm, great points, both Empressofmelnibone and Neo XD

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    • Twilight's just kind of sad.

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    • I watched the movie once before. Worst mistake of my life, almost as bad as reading the book.

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    • Lmfaooooo my older sister used to tell me about how she loved it, then realized how stupid it was XD Ahhhhhhh, good times XD

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    • Though i'm wondering in the Spirit World are the previous avatars, how can the Avatars be in the Spirit World, in Raava, and the current Avatar all at the same time?

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    • Well, Raava is no longer Raava at the end of her life, neither is Wan Wan. They are both one half spirit half human. And they die and get reborn as one. Think of them as "Waavan".

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    • Empressofmelnibone wrote:
      Though i'm wondering in the Spirit World are the previous avatars, how can the Avatars be in the Spirit World, in Raava, and the current Avatar all at the same time?

      My interpretation is that the avatars we saw in the spirit world are simply the memories of those avatars given physical forms. After all, we have seen plenty of times that the current avatar cannot consciously access their past lives' memories. The avatars are all the same soul (Wan), their individual memories are separated, however, because otherwise Korra would probably go insane from having 10,000 years worth of memories inside her head.

      It's only when the current avatar enters the avatar state that they are able to recall their past memories and experiences. 

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    • Thanks for cleaaring that up. That question has been bugging me.

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    • Empressofmelnibone wrote:
      Thanks for cleaaring that up. That question has been bugging me.

      Your welcome. On a more humorous note, this basically means that whenever any avatar speaks to their past lives it's basically the spiritual equivalent of talking to yourself.

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    • Lol never thought of that. Makes so much sense though.

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    • that's basically what's going on there.

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    • I don't recall where this was debated, but I just re-watched the Vaatu fight, & I can confirm that Wan only uses Firebending before Raava enters his body. Raava occupying his body, what you might call the "proto Avatar State," just gives him access to all of the Bending Arts simultaneously. This is made permanent during the Harmonic Convergence.

      Edit: Found the training montage, too, similar story there.

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    • I really hope that they come up with something super epic to end it :D

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    • So, I know it's a bit of a stretch, but anyone else think that the Fire Nation shaman from Beginnings who looked over Korra could be Azula?

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    • @neo

      but we know he firebent (if nothing else, the firebending sound effect was played) to protect rava and then airbent at the spirits and humans a bit later w/o rava passing though him, so that disproves the whole thing. also, the air lion turtle said that raava would hold the power until he mastered it.

      @fan96

      it's already been confirmed that azula won't be making an appearance. besides, this isn't really the thread for that.

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    • That's what you said about the other 2 scenes, so no, I don't think you've disproved it.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      @neo

      but we know he firebent (if nothing else, the firebending sound effect was played) to protect rava and then airbent at the spirits and humans a bit later w/o rava passing though him, so that disproves the whole thing. also, the air lion turtle said that raava would hold the power until he mastered it.

      @fan96

      it's already been confirmed that azula won't be making an appearance. besides, this isn't really the thread for that.

      The firebending sound effect came from the fireball fired at Raava, not from Wan. He used airbending in order to deflect it.

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    • the sound effect is played whenever fireballs are launched, so the sound effect does in fact prove that he was using firebending. anyway, regardless, it's well established that the avatar can bend whatever element he wants.

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    • This is becoming tiresome.

      http://www.nick.com/videos/clip/legend-of-korra-120-full-episode.html

      10:45, blocks the fireball with airbending, you can clearly see the swirl of air.

      11:45, Wan uses nothing but Airbending during the fight until Raava enters his body.

      Yes, the AVATAR can bend whatever s/he wants, because the AVATAR has RAAVA inside of him/her.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote: This is becoming tiresome.

      http://www.nick.com/videos/clip/legend-of-korra-120-full-episode.html

      10:45, blocks the fireball with airbending, you can clearly see the swirl of air.

      11:45, Wan uses nothing but Airbending during the fight until Raava enters his body.

      Yes, the AVATAR can bend whatever s/he wants, because the AVATAR has RAAVA inside of him/her.

      Here is a screenshot of the first instance, for anyone who can't access the Nick site. He did block that with airbending.

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    • ^Cool. Will be checking out :D

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    • So is the Avatar all the Avatars or is the current Avatar seperate?