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  • In The Beach, when they were asking Zuko who he was angry at, remember how Azula asked "Me ?" Remember how soft she asked and her facial expressions. She seemed so sisterly. Also when Zuko reveals he is angry at himself and she asks "Why ?" And the famous line about her mother thinking she is a monster. If you take those 3 moments in isolation, you may think Azula actually loves her brother and her mother. In the same episode Azula apologized to Ty Lee when she really didn't have to. If she didn't apologize would anything really change for in a negative way ? I doubt not apologizing would make Ty Lee turn on her. Also Azula was hurt that a boy didn't like her. That is so "human" of her.

    Another interesting thing is young Azula didn't seem to care that her grandfather died or that her mom disappeared. Young Azula also didn't seem scared when Azulon ordered Ozai to killed Zuko.

    Did Azula love Zuko or Ty Lee or Mai or Ozai or Ursa or Azulon ?

    Did Zuko or Ty Lee or Mai or Ozai or Ursa or Azulon loves her ?

    What if Zuko remained loyal to the fire nation?

    Would she and Zuko get along ? If Zuko remained loyal, Mai wouldn't have to pick between Zuko and her, which then means Ty Lee wouldn't have to pick between Mai and her. Azula's feelings for her friends seemed stronger than that of her for her brother. Their betrayal led her to psychosis.

    What if the fire nation would won ?

    Would a fire lord Azula be happy ? Would she be loving to her brother ? Would she be supportive to Phoenix King OzI or will she try to overthrow him ?

    It's hard to say who Azula loved but it is also hard to say who Azula hated. Really, who did Azula hate ? Or attitude towards Aang and the gang was not emotional.

    Also, what are her motives ? Love ? Political power ? She did seem to enjoy, for a very short time, when Ozai said she will become fire lord. But she was far from happy. If Ozai were to decide to make Phoenix queen and he just retire would that have made her happy ?

    Aside from Azula, do you have problems answer for any other character in Avatar The Last Airbender: Who does him or her love ? What motivates him or her ? What would make him or her happy ?

    Azula is complex.

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    • I always felt sorry for Azula. Imagine If Iroh and she were close each other, like the way Iroh and Zuko were. Under the different circumstances, Azula's life could have been different. If she felt the real love of a parent, If she had someone who helped her by standing her side when she was a child. ect. 

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    • Delariona wrote:
      I always felt sorry for Azula. Imagine If Iroh and she were close each other, like the way Iroh and Zuko were. Under the different circumstances, Azula's life could have been different. If she felt the real love of a parent, If she had someone who helped her by standing her side when she was a child. ect. 

      Sorry? Azula was Ozai and Azulon's favorite born a prodigy with skills in manipulation and very athletically gifted as well. If she had received a normal childhood she may have just ended up a talented bender.

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    • Probably? Or If she received a normal childhood she wouldn't be like that. 

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    • Fireworshipper
      Fireworshipper removed this reply because:
      Because I want to remove it.
      14:24, September 11, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • The only misconception is the alternate character interpretation proposed by Azula apologists. It stems from misunderstandings of what psychopathy actually is & ironically either not listening to what their favorite character actually says her motives are or simply not believing her.

      I'm getting ahead of myself, of course, but that's the most important line in this post, so I didn't want to bury it. Anyway, despite the length of that bit of Azula apologetics, it essentially makes the same 3 points a bunch of times over:

      1. Azula isn't a psychopath because she has emotions & doesn't go out of her way to kill people.

      2. Azula isn't a psychopath because she displays empathy.

      3. Azula doesn't want power.

      Which are wrong because:

      1. Neither of those are what a psychopath is. A psychopath is not some cartoonishly evil murderous robot, they have emotions of their own, they just don't particularly care about YOUR emotions. They lack the empathy that might stop them from doing something heinous to get what they want, like say being willing to throw a captain overboard so his insistence on safety regulations doesn't slow her to her destination.

      Also, reminder that the show is TV Y-7, we know of several characters who are willing to kill people, but are never or almost never shown actually doing it. Ozai himself has no onscreen kills. Plenty of attempted murder, but so does Azula, she critically wounded Iroh & later tried to kill Zuko & Katara. In-context, the taking of prisoners can be explained as a war resource, providing information & possibly labor.

      2. No she doesn't. She outright tells us why she lets Zuko take the glory, she anticipated the Avatar might've survived & wanted to set Zuko up as the fall guy. So even if she didn't actually need him to take Ba Sing Se, which she says she does & maximizing her odds does make sense since Iroh would probably side against her, she does in fact have an ulterior motive.

      And she was in fact mocking Mai, she was flippant, harsh, & didn't care when she upset her. Passive-aggressively tearing down someone in the guise of advice is something Azula does quite a bit. Yet she only ever expressed regret over this once, with Ty Lee, so it's a more plausible explanation that this was either a fluke or she realized she went too far & would need to play sweet to get what she wanted. I mean, the alternative is that EVERY OTHER TIME she does this & DOESN'T regret it is the exception, which clearly makes no sense.

      3. She certainly does want power. She talks about having a divine right to rule, & in the comics tries to essentially rule from the shadows. Saying she's clearly being selfless because she chose to say "leader" instead of "ruler" is like...did you hurt your shoulder with that reach? One of the first things she does after being declared Fire Lord is threaten a servant girl for an honest mistake, & speaking of, it's worth noting that she considered banishment a lenient punishment.

      By the way, being a power hungry psychopath doesn't preclude being a complex character, that's a false dichotomy. Azula certainly does have a lot of personality traits IN ADDITION TO her psychopathy, & sure if you want to blow up the former & pretend the latter doesn't exist, you can paint a particularly rosy picture of her, but that's just Draco In Leather Pants.

      I'm not going to be checking out that tumblr post because seriously, you crank out an ~80 line essay & on top of that you want me to read something at least twice as long?

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    • I think it's possible to attempt to mount a defense of Azula while also not ignoring that she has made mistakes and hurts people. However, a lot of these are symptoms of a problem where she was essentially raised to prioritize survival and power over all else, because that what got her parental attention, approval, and love, something all children crave to a certain extent. No good mother can call an eight year old child a monster and give up completely on them, and I think we can blame Ursa here and see why Azula gave up attempting to gain her mother's approval and instead focussed on the approval she got from her father, which came from acting cruelly.

      I think it's clear to see what what Azula truly craves is her mother's love, as seen through her mental breakdown and subsequent hallucinations, which were triggered by the feeling of lack of support from her comrades and her family. I feel empathy for Azula and I feel like it's shitty that she never got the support she truly clearly needed from any member of her family, and that many of the more compassionate members took interest in Zuko over Azula, when Azula is clearly at least as blood thirsty as Iroh who didn't have a chance to revisit his failures and question his beliefs until he was well into adulthood, and Azula is clearly a child who suffers from severe emotional abuse.

      This doesn't excuse her behavior towards Mai and Ty Lee, and she still clearly hurt them and didn't care, because (it's my belief) that while to some extent she knew that they were only with her because they feared her, she hadn't truly processed that they didn't like or care about her. My essential point is, Azula made mistakes and needs emotional support, not being locked away from her family in a mental institution. She does need mental help, but I don't think "full body straight jackets and no time with friends or family" is that… at all. Fourteen year olds make mistakes but they grow and improve. When I was fourteen I was posting Men's Rights Activism garbage on tumblr but kids are young and capable of improvement.

      I think another issue to keep in mind when speaking of Azula is her gender and the politics that lie therein. It's interesting to note that she's the only fourteen year old member with visible make-up, and is clearly sexualized to a certain degree see here. In addition, she never gets a redemption arc while Zuko and Iroh do-- the latter of whom has committed far more sins than Azula has during her lifetime. It's so often that we see girl's who are simply meant to be portrayed as "crazy" with clear psychological trauma offered up as a loose cause for it that is never further explained, and never redeemed. So often these kinds of male characters become fan favorites who people will talk an talk at length about how "uwu they never did anything wrong and deserve better" and often will get redemption arcs, yet that empathy in portrayal is so frequently lacking from depictions of female villains.

      That's just my two cents anyway.

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    • Nice to see you on the board again, but I'm still gonna have to say nay. Her problems aren't so much "ignored" as dismissed. You say female villains don't get the sympathy that male ones do, but the phenomenon you're describing is exactly what we see with Azula. She's every bit as cruel & scheming as Ozai or Azulon, yet she's the one people trip over themselves to call misunderstood & blame her problems on others, while they're written off as "just obviously evil."

      This also happens in Legend of Korra with Kuvira, so if anything it seems like female characters are more likely to get this treatment in the Avatar fanbase. I don't think that's per se because of their gender, you see it a bit with Zaheer & Amon depending on how much the person sympathizes with their ideology, so it seems more like a matter of fan favoritism but anyway...

      Azula actively resists redemption & it gets called "unfair that she doesn't get a redemption arc." We see she's misbehaved since a young age, & Ursa gets blamed for trying to correct her, rather than inferring that it's the other way around. We never saw her call Azula a monster, she put those words in her mouth, & she herself probably knows deep down that she's making that up, judging from what her Ursa hallucination says to her. We hear she was raised in a troubled environment & wanted her parents' affection, but so did her brother.

      Now, I'm sure the environment didn't help, but at what point are we going to say a character is responsible for their own choices & they can't keep shunting blame off to everyone & everything else? When do we accept that redemption isn't in their nature, or at least not the same kind of total change of heart we see with others?

      And no, I don't think she's "clearly sexualized." I've seen that tumblr before, & it pretty much reads as that person projecting. There's nothing inherently sexual about her wearing pajamas, or putting her hair down, or Grey DeLisle's voice. They can pretend everyone feels the same way all they want, I'm not claiming ownership of their baggage.

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    • She may not have said the own words monster, but she imo saying "what is wrong with that child" which about your own child is equivalently awful. I agree, characters are responsible for their own actions, to a certain degree, yeah? But Azula's fourteen. Ozai and Azulon don't get redemption, but to a certain extent they're also not real characters. They don't have backstories or motivations for their actions (neither do Zaheer or Unalaq). This rings true of all Avatar characters-- any character deemed "human" and real gets redemption, the more human the more sympathetic their portrayal. We're told that killing is wrong for Ozai, yet the gang has done some things to which survival would be highly questionable for nameless nobodies. In addition, the only villains who have had backstories but don't get redemption are Amon and Azula, Amon who at least states he wants to try over again, and still wasn't given a lead in from his childhood to where he is today. Azula is still fourteen.

      I think that there is a point to the essay, even if I too disagree with a lot of what the author states (largely the incestuous parts and the… praise[?] for the way this can be read). To me, even if you disagree that Azula is sexualized to a certain extent, it also is about the role Azula plays as a temptress, bringing Zuko towards the metaphoric dark side with silky words and false promises. The role of the temptress is extremely rarely a role given to men, and it's extremely rare such characters get redemption. I bring up the sexualization as a specific note to show the lack of care and empathy created in the construction of her character, the only true humanizing moments come from her opening up for like one line during The Beach. But to be honest that kind of behavior is rather prevalent in other characters as well, but that's another issue for another time.

      Abuse survivors are so frequently depicted as having to be like Zuko, kind and brave and nothing like their abusers, but there is very little sympathy for survivors like Azula, people who make mistakes and do bad things as a result of trauma. Fourteen year olds like Azula are real and do exist, and have just as much capacity to grow and become better people, regardless of the actions they may take as children. To be fully honest I don't think Azula deserves the friendship with Mai and Ty Lee and they made the right decision to leave her, but that doesn't mean she can't become a better person.

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    • The fact that she's so easily willing to attempt first degree murder at such a young age is kind of one of the reasons she's a psychopath. I don't like the idea of giving her a redemption arc at all because it reinforces the notion that she's somehow entitled to it because she's a fan favorite, but I'm especially opposed to anything that doesn't work within the confines of what change a psychopath is actually capable of, & instead wants to reimagine her as this misunderstood sweet little thing who only ever did wrong because of her parents. Side note, Ursa's a great parent, the expectation that she's supposed to be some endless font of joy & not y'know a person who sometimes gets frustrated &/or has to look like the bad guy to correct a misbehaving child is already unrealistic even before we add in an abusive husband & said problem child.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote: The fact that she's so easily willing to attempt first degree murder at such a young age is kind of one of the reasons she's a psychopath. I don't like the idea of giving her a redemption arc at all because it reinforces the notion that she's somehow entitled to it because she's a fan favorite, but I'm especially opposed to anything that doesn't work within the confines of what change a psychopath is actually capable of, & instead wants to reimagine her as this misunderstood sweet little thing who only ever did wrong because of her parents. Side note, Ursa's a great parent, the expectation that she's supposed to be some endless font of joy & not y'know a person who sometimes gets frustrated &/or has to look like the bad guy to correct a misbehaving child is already unrealistic even before we add in an abusive husband & said problem child.

      One can get upset at a child and get frustrated without proclaiming their disapproval and shock at a child near that child's face. I've done work in child care, and I'd never say that about one of the students I've worked with, and I've had tough ones. You cannot place full blame on a child for the actions they take, and especially ones which you have some form of direct control over as a parent. Being abused does not give one the excuse to act neglectful, and I would completely support an arc in which Ursa works on her relationship with Azula, and one can correct behavior without causing one to feel like a monster, which is evidenced by Ursa's behavior with Zuko. In addition, don't think Ursa is a bad person, but she was a bad parent to Azula. I think a dichotomy between good person/bad person is fundamentally unhelpful, and instead we should look at actions themselves, and some of Ursa's actions were absolutely hurtful, and she can work to fix those actions.

      I don't see how her actions are not at all the responsibility of those around her, and the parents' she had which is actually a recurring theme in the Avatar franchise, as seen with Noatak and Tarrlok, Kuvira, the Beifongs, etc. I think its quite silly to redeem Kuvira and Iroh who engaged gleefully in the slaughter of civillians but to give no sympathy to the fourteen year old who --clearly did hurt others-- but was also an abuse victim with no support. I don't think that showing people can always improve is anything contradictory to messages that are already quite prevalent within the Avatar universe.

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    • and one can correct behavior without causing one to feel like a monster, which is evidenced by Ursa's behavior with Zuko.

      But here's what was actually different with Zuko: When he was scolded, he would feel bad, he would seek a way to correct himself, & not to put too fine a point on it, but a lot of his worse actions he got from his sister. That's the thing those scenes were showing, that Ursa didn't know how to reach Azula because even at that age she was already very different from the other children, including her brother. Her mother wasn't just being an ass to her for no reason.

      I think a dichotomy between good person/bad person is fundamentally unhelpful, and instead we should look at actions themselves, and some of Ursa's actions were absolutely hurtful, and she can work to fix those actions.

      Well, I didn't use those terms. I've been consciously avoiding them because I too think that's entirely the wrong way to think of it. A psychopath can indeed change their behavior to a more constructive context, even though their motives are still fundamentally selfish. Whether that makes them "good" is a question for the philosophers.

      But if you want to say there are things that Ursa could do better, that's fine, I never suggested otherwise. But you're showing me a very mild rude thing said during an argument & trying to sell me on the notion that it's unthinkable parenting which is significantly responsible for the way Azula turned out. Which, I again have to say that even Azula doesn't seem to honestly believe, since the imaginary Ursa who says she always loved her is just her brain talking to itself.

      Being abused does not give one the excuse to act neglectful

      You keep bringing up abuse as an excuse for Azula, so is there some cutoff age at which abuse doesn't affect you? Don't you think it's significant that Ozai's dominance would make it difficult if not impossible for Ursa to seek help in how to deal with Azula even if she wanted to? Or how there are plenty of cases where real life abused wives retreat into a shell & just allow things to happen, so Ursa is actually extremely high functioning for her situation?

      I don't see how her actions are not at all the responsibility of those around her,

      I never said Ozai had no blame, but he's being punished & nobody's disputing that he should.

      I think its quite silly to redeem Kuvira and Iroh who engaged gleefully in the slaughter of civillians but to give no sympathy to the fourteen year old who --clearly did hurt others-- but was also an abuse victim with no support.

      Hey, I hate Kuvira, I'm completely against Book 4 trying to frame her as worthy of sympathy, & I hope that subplot never ever comes back. Also, fuck Bataar Jr. too. But Iroh? I think you're referring to the insensitive joke he made about the Fire Nation burning down the Earth Kingdom, but while we don't see what he was like back then, that's not really a reason to believe he participated in actual war crimes. Even Ursa & Zuko laughed at it.

      I don't think that showing people can always improve is anything contradictory to messages that are already quite prevalent within the Avatar universe.

      Oh, I think the writers already should've been more careful about the messages they put out there. I mean, that's why we have certain people saying Kuvira did nothing wrong, or that the Avatar world was supposed to be a group of ultra-conservative ethnostates & multiculturalism ruined it. Clearly, that's not what they intended to put out, but that's the way it was received in some not-so-small circles, & I do think some of the blame falls to them.

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    • Well, I had written a whole thought out reply to this but it got eaten so I'm going to sit here and think on that, and maybe write a response when I'm ready again lol.

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    • That's why I copy all of my posts before I hit send.

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    • Wikia is truly garbage lol

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    • I do it everywhere, but I have most of my eaten posts on Wiki, yeah.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote: She's every bit as cruel & scheming as Ozai or Azulon, yet she's the one people trip over themselves to call misunderstood & blame her problems on others, while they're written off as "just obviously evil."

      Azula actively resists redemption & it gets called "unfair that she doesn't get a redemption arc." We see she's misbehaved since a young age, & Ursa gets blamed for trying to correct her, rather than inferring that it's the other way around. We never saw her call Azula a monster, she put those words in her mouth, & she herself probably knows deep down that she's making that up, judging from what her Ursa hallucination says to her. We hear she was raised in a troubled environment & wanted her parents' affection, but so did her brother.

      Now, I'm sure the environment didn't help, but at what point are we going to say a character is responsible for their own choices & they can't keep shunting blame off to everyone & everything else? When do we accept that redemption isn't in their nature, or at least not the same kind of total change of heart we see with others?

      ^This. See, apologists keep "conveniently forgetting" (read: willfully ignoring) is that Azula isn't just Zuko's foil in ability, she's as much his foil/the path not taken in morality no different than Sabretooth (usually) is to Wolverine. Zuko's famed angst in struggling to "do right," (learning that pleasing his father and upholding the Fire Nation's militant path isn't it,) while Azula embraces the mindset wholeheartedly just as Wolverine famously struggles with not losing his humanity while Sabretooth revels in being the monster that personifies the worst ideas of mutants.

      During the show, she's personified as the Shoulder Devil in Zuko's dream and ends up a psychotic mess contrasting Zuko looking clean and at peace, especially when the show properly (not counting her appearances in Book 1,) debuted her as a prodigy with a ship that made Zuko look like he got a hand-me-down, (which he likely did.) During the comics, she's the Token Evil Teammate in finding Ursa that not even her ex-BFF would sleep with both eyes closed around before going even more unhinged and then reappearing in the next trilogy where she tries to deliberately mold Zuko into "the right kind" of Fire Lord, meaning another Ozai/Sozin.

      Which brings me to another point: Redemption is for those who actually feel remorse/responsibility and seek atonement.

      Zuko clearly felt bad, responsible for what he'd done and busted his ass to be forgiven whether it was as easy as reuniting with Iroh or as hard as it was for Katara to forgive him by hunting the man who killed her mom to kill him.

      Yon Rha was confronted by Katara and though admitting he did it, cowered and offered his mother's life instead, which is not only a dick move, it's clearly doing him a favor.

      Azula's certainly more complex than her father and ancestors, but she not only has zero remorse, she has denialism strong enough to create a false narrative that ignored/excused her own cruelty (ex. to animals,) and believed Ursa considered her a monster for scolding her over said cruelty, which gave way to paranoia, violence and then further Evil Cannot Comprehend Good madness when reuniting with Ursa again. Any moment of guilt/epiphany/contemplation is fiercely rejected and instead triples-down on the same path. Honestly, she reminds me of an incel that would sooner believe the crap about "Chads," "Stacies," and just needing plastic surgery to fix their lives rather than admit the ugliness remains within and fix that.


      Also, I'm not going to blame Bryke for the Fire Nation apologia because fandom has always been fucked up like that as George Lucas made Space Nazis and people were still, "but was the Empire really that evil?" or "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" had Dr. Frank N. Furter be a murderous, self-serving psycho and people even in-universe calling him out yet just the same there were "But I can change him!" fanfics, so nothing's new and I know there's always been Tyzula shippers out there romanticizing that relationship like Joker and Harley Quinn.

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    • During the show, she's personified as the Shoulder Devil in Zuko's dream

      Yeah, & the problem I have with the argument that she didn't have to be written that way is that now we're talking about some Azula lookalike with a different characterization, so it's not really applicable.

      Which brings me to another point: Redemption is for those who actually feel remorse/responsibility and seek atonement.

      Completely agree. And if the writer can't make it believable, that's so much worse than just not doing it. Excuse me while I aggressively wash the taste of the last arc of Naruto out of my mouth with lye, steel wool, & a flamethrower.

      Zuko clearly felt bad, responsible for what he'd done and busted his ass to be forgiven whether it was as easy as reuniting with Iroh or as hard as it was for Katara to forgive him by hunting the man who killed her mom to kill him.

      Yeah, I don't get why some try to frame Zuko & Azula as having essentially the same motive. There's a stark difference between the why & how of what they do that it's very hard to believe is learned, considering they already have it when they appear to be even younger than Aang.

      Yon Rha was confronted by Katara and though admitting he did it, cowered and offered his mother's life instead, which is not only a dick move, it's clearly doing him a favor.

      I still say she should've axed them both.

      Also, I'm not going to blame Bryke for the Fire Nation apologia because fandom has always been fucked up like that

      I don't solely blame them, but when you look back at Last Airbender, yeah it actually is easy to see why its message resonates with far right types. It depicts an idyllic world where all the different tribes of people live peacefully but separately, presided over by kings & the literal speaker for god, which is all brought to ruin by the aggression of a foreign power with global designs. So, yeah, not hard to see how it got its Misaimed Fandom.

      Ditto for them portraying the seduction of fascism in loving detail without thinking that it would actually appeal to the audience. Of course, it's hard to predict every way your message might be taken, but still, things probably should've been thought through a bit more.

      Something similar goes for the other examples.

      as George Lucas made Space Nazis and people were still, "but was the Empire really that evil?"

      Star Wars has always wanted to have their cake & eat it too, marketing the Empire as a cool, dark alternative to the "light side."

      or "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" had Dr. Frank N. Furter be a murderous, self-serving psycho and people even in-universe calling him out yet just the same there were "But I can change him!" fanfics,

      This one I kind of get since a lot of people have commented on the fact that Frank N. Furter was, for the longest time, the closest thing to an out-&-proud transgender character acceptable & even celebrated by mainstream media.

      so nothing's new and I know there's always been Tyzula shippers out there romanticizing that relationship like Joker and Harley Quinn

      The crack shippers are always fun.

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    • First of all, I do not factor in the comics into the analysis of Azula I wrote above. Namely, because the comics are laughably badly-written and completely butcher the main characters from the series.

      Just because the show's rating doesn't allow corpses to be shown, it doesn't mean that the writers couldn't have depicted Azula killing a bunch of people if they wanted to portray her character that way. Sokka, Aang, Toph and Suki certainly kill a fair number of Fire Nation soldiers in the finale episodes. Aang when he crashed Ozai's airship prior to his fight with him. Sokka, Suki and Toph with their 'airship slice' maneuvers against the Fire Nation airships. It's more than likely that at least some Fire Nation soldiers got killed if not most of them.

      Yes, some of the people Azula captures can be considered as taken captive as source of information or war resource. However, this certainly is not the case with Iroh and it definitely isn't the case with Mai and Ty Lee. After the two of them betrayed her, she literally had no reason to keep them alive, none whatsoever.

      She didn't know she would need Zuko to take the fall when she offered him the chance to help her because she offered him the help before the fight itself took place. And saying she gave him the chance because Iroh would turn against her is not really a great argument considering that the Dai Li had already trapped him and he was powerless right in front of her. She could've killed him right then and there. Sure, he got free later, but Azula couldn't have known that he would and Zuko's help obviously wasn't necessary in order to imprison him.

      Azula only began suspecting that Aang survived after Zuko lied to her face when she asked him whether or not he thinks Aang survived. Only after this conversation does she tell Ozai that Zuko killed the Avatar. Prior to this, she had no reason for helping him aside from the fact that he is her brother. Plus, I mentioned that she did or said other selfless things to him: assuring him he doesn't need Ozai to restore his honor, but that he had already restored it himself by helping her defeat Aang and Katara, to warning him of the dangers of visiting Iroh in prison and what people might think and/or suspect if they found out, to actively seeking him out when he wandered off alone in Ember Island to their beach house and helping him realize, along with Mai and Ty Lee, that he's actually angry with himself and not with any other person in particular. Azula wasn't harsh or insulting to Mai at all when talking about Mai repressing her feelings. All she did was take a closer look at Mai as a person. After Mai tells her to leave her alone, Azula immediately stops talking. There's nothing harsh or uncaring about this. Also, Azula didn't have anything to gain by apologizing to Ty Lee, she didn't want anything from Ty Lee in that scene. She did all of these things without gaining anything in return and she didn't have any hidden agenda either.  So yes, Azula definitely showed empathy and she definitely isn't a psychopath or a sociopath. Azula also felt love for her father and for Zuko, as said by Aaron Ehasz here: https://screenshots.firefox.com/Ay0zyQCUmU2607V1/www.reddit.com

      If the deeds above were done by Zuko or one of the protagonists, they would've never been questioned, but because they were done by the oh-so-evil-Azula they must be wrong and people are completely willing to ignore or overlook them when talking about her character.

      Her most awful act toward her friends is intimidating Ty Lee into joining her mission because she believed that Ty Lee could help her accomplish it more quickly, which was true. The point is, she had a concrete reason for intimidating Ty Lee and didn't do it just for the sake of it, but yes, this is still obviously morally wrong. Yes, trying to attack Mai and imprisoning both them are more hurtful deeds than intimidating Ty Lee, but both of these things happened after they betrayed her and became traitors to the Fire Nation in the war, therefore these deeds cannot be used as an example of some sorta abuser-victim relationship. Note, just because I don't demonize Azula's every action doesn't mean I don't see her darker sides.

      She said to Long Feng that she has the divine right to rule, yes. But saying that you have power doesn't make you power-hungry. Neither does punishing a servant girl for an honest mistake. Is it harsh? Definitely. But it's not power-hungry. Note, we've never seen Azula punishing servants before this and obviously the greater effects of her breakdown were starting to take hold here as soon after this she started banishing everybody from the palace. Another thing to take into account is that Azula is never shown desiring the throne or even saying that she wants it and she is genuinely surprised when Ozai brings it up. I'm not saying that Azula didn't think about inheriting the throne from Ozai, she was the Crown Princess for three years, but she obviously didn't think about the throne in some kind power-hungry fashion. Also, even Zuko has lines like "I want the Avatar, I want my honor, my throne" or "Son of Ursa and Fire Lord Ozai. Prince of the Fire Nation, and heir to the throne" or "Sorry, you're not gonna become Fire Lord today. I am", all of which he says either after he is already banished from the Fire Nation or after he is already declared a traitor and an enemy of the Fire Nation.

      I don't want you to read anything. I clearly said "for anyone who is interested". You're not interested, fine by me.

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    • (Goddamn glitch or something kept my post from showing up! So this'll be likely shorter and from memory.)

      Naruto. ...Gawd. Now that right there is a Textbook example of what happens when an author not only has one pet character, but an entire lineage of them. I stopped (directly) reading that hot mess around the time Madara got resurrected or the Moon Princess showed yet proved to be an idiot, but I already had my fill when Sakura did a 180 from being ready to kill Sasuke and then pissed away all that character development to fangirl over him again, (Kishimoto, himself might as well have dropped trou, did "The Goat," take a picture of said gesture and put said picture in that chapter for how useful and insulting it was,) and the Second Hogake's "The Uchihas were really good people beside the chemical imbalance thing." Seriously, if you make the Saiyans look good, you fucked up. So even though I go off on Mako (and still have an analysis/tirade for another thread,) Bryke at least knew how to take the piss out of him and admit, "Yeah, we screwed up, he's not the Chosen One/Breakout Character we thought he'd be after all."

      Aside from the fact that Bryke were still new to the crazier part of fandom, (ex. they had no idea what shipping was until at least Book 2,) those same trolls seem to forget/ignore that the franchise has always been "Tumblr before Tumblr" in its Central Theme of Balance and Katara was one dye-job away from being the dreaded "Tumblrina" they always accuse of being the killjoy of all things cultural and pop cultural, but were too busy fixating on who she'd hook up with, (which again, were all interracial options in a normalized and humanized fashion). Besides the same spite (ex. rooting for the Eco-Villains in "Captain Planet,") trolls were also using plenty of fallacies (ex. "The Fire Nation is actually more progressive because of Ozai's Angels and a unisex prison with male and female guards unlike the Water Tribe with its betrothal necklaces and sexist martial arts program!") So spelling out Sozin, (even without the Narm,) as a homophobe that had queer people arrested and presumably killed on top of his other atrocities simply had those same trolls wishing he'd do likewise to Korra and Asami. Also both they and Lucas had the same "problem" of Historical Accuracy Gone Horribly Right as both fictional evil empire being based on real ones who had style (ex. see Hugo Boss,) plus in Lucas's case, (who among other tone-deafness like expecting people to favor Luke over Han,) he expected the audience to see Vader as a tragic figure/monster instead of the cyborg badass the public knew him as and tried to "fix" it in the Prequels only self-admittedly screwing it up while Kylo Ren in "The Force Awakens" is what Grandpa Anakin was supposed to be.

      I get the interpretation with Furter, (along with other queer-coded villains like Ursula, Hades and Scar, plus even Grey DeLisle figured Azula was a closeted lesbian in love with Ty Lee,) but that still not only excuses the inexcusable, it goes back to that same thing:

      CHARISMA.

      As long as they have a catchy song, style, look sexy/cool, do badass things, etc., "minor things" like rape, murder, genocide, cannibalism, etc. will all be excused beyond all reason especially if being more charismatic than the actual protagonist(s,) even in as Black and White Morality as Star Wars or AtLA.

      Brad and Janet would've been just another whitebread yuppie couple had their car not broken down.

      Most of the Disney protags and love interests are straight men singing "I Want" songs with their comic relief sidekicks while the villains are not only more proactive, (I remember Disney even had a special outright stating this with the Magic Mirror,) but w/o their own comic relief sidekicks, sing more powerful songs.

      Scar had a Nazitastic song about killing family members to rule the kingdom, but it was refreshing for those tired of "Hakuna Matata."

      Gaston was meme-worthy decades before meme culture truly existed.

      I remember a critic even saying she preferred The Misfits' songs over Jem and The Holograms' because the latter's were edgier/more proactive while the former's were only about love.

      So the Fire Nation being straightforward villains still would have apologists as did the grayer villains of Korra's era where immaterial of ideology, they, (except Unalaq,) were badass/cool-looking at what they did. I'm not particularly keen on Kuvira either, (She's #3 by default after Amon, Zaheer being a close second and Una-HA! I'd rather pick Varrick,) due to how much Plot Armor/luck/circumstances/Doylism required for her to last as long as she did especially without a "super power" like Amon's Psychic-Super Bloodbending, her backstory being more Told than Shown and of course, how the audience was beaten over the head that she's Korra's foil when the show's usually been smarter than that.

      Just the same I got why people, (I'm reminded of ugh Lily Peet again, blugh,) crushed on her to the extent I know at least one woman admitting she realized she was bi because of her crush on her. So Misaimed Fandom is no different than Rule34: no matter how much the creator tries to avoid it, it happens anyway and there's gigs upon gigs of "The Last Of Us," "Bioshock Infinite" and especially Overwatch porn out there (in 1080HD!) to prove it.

      Speaking of crack ships, I'm fondly reminded of Korra/HOWL long before LoK shipping regained its predecessor's toxicity.

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    • Isn't it the consensus that Azula is, in fact, a psychopath? Her ravaging emotions due to the lack of parental love is what made her a psychopath.

      I think she's too deep down the well of crazy for her to be seeking for love and for love to even heal bits of her therefore a Character Development arc would be redundant.

      I do agree that she is somewhat complex because of the conflict, the ghost of her mother, that haunts her. The lack of parental love made her villainous intents realistic, not justifiable. I do not sympathize or feel an inkling of pity for her, however. She was an implied murderer, even from a young age. I just do not get the Naruto /Book 4 concept of villain sympathy/redemption.

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    • First of all, I do not factor in the comics into the analysis of Azula I wrote above. Namely, because the comics are laughably badly-written and completely butcher the main characters from the series.

      Too bad what's canon isn't up to you.

      Just because the show's rating doesn't allow corpses to be shown, it doesn't mean that the writers couldn't have depicted Azula killing a bunch of people if they wanted to portray her character that way.

      They portrayed the attempts. Next.

      However, this certainly is not the case with Iroh and it definitely isn't the case with Mai and Ty Lee. After the two of them betrayed her, she literally had no reason to keep them alive, none whatsoever.

      Except that she clearly states she wants them to "rot" in prison, which you don't want to acknowledge, because it hurts your attempt to frame this as mercy rather than Azula's self-stated belief that they would suffer.

      She didn't know she would need Zuko to take the fall when she offered him the chance to help her because she offered him the help before the fight itself took place.

      You're not giving Azula the credit she deserves. She's the type to think ahead, & for contingencies. The whole reason she asked Zuko if he thought the Avatar survived out of the blue is because she'd already considered the possibility, & was probing him to see if he knew anything.

      Plus, I mentioned that she did or said other selfless things to him

      Which were all either other things you were wrong about, or part of her manipulation of Zuko, which you were also wrong about.

      After Mai tells her to leave her alone, Azula immediately stops talking.

      I can't help but notice you're quick to point to this & that one time Azula apologized to Ty Lee, but NOT that Mai didn't get an apology here, or just how rare that act was for Azula. Or that Azula previously leveraged Mai's brother's life against Team Avatar. But yes, she must care so deeply. And clearly I must mean that, I mean I said it, it's not like my tone & the context can change the meaning of what I say.

      Also, Azula didn't have anything to gain by apologizing to Ty Lee, she didn't want anything from Ty Lee in that scene.

      This is the scene in which she gets Ty Lee to try teaching her how to attract boys.

      So yes, Azula definitely showed empathy and she definitely isn't a psychopath or a sociopath.

      No, you're just seeing what you want to see.

      Azula also felt love for her father and for Zuko, as said by Aaron Ehasz here: https://screenshots.firefox.com/Ay0zyQCUmU2607V1/www.reddit.com

      Well, I was able to track down the profile that made this comment, but their comments got very little attention during the one thread they were active in, & appear to be deleted now. It was most probably a troll. And it contradicts what we see anyway. Oh yeah, she loved Zuko so much that she enjoyed watching his face get torched, lemme tell ya. You really shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.

      If the deeds above were done by Zuko or one of the protagonists, they would've never been questioned, but because they were done by the oh-so-evil-Azula they must be wrong and people are completely willing to ignore or overlook them when talking about her character.

      I didn't ignore or overlook them, I pointed out how you were presenting them in a distorted, rose-tinged fashion. It's essentially the opposite of when people isolate insensitive remarks to paint Zuko or Katara as evil. If you're honestly shocked that a character's actions get filtered through their context, including whether they're overall heroic or villainous, I truly don't know what to tell you.

      Also, I never called Azula evil. People do this all the time, they conflate the words "evil" & "psychopath" & get all affronted that I'd cast aspersions on the noble character of...Azula. But if you think the traits of a psychopath are evil, that only says that you believe evil is. Don't shoot the messenger for pointing out a character exhibits those signs.

      Note, just because I don't demonize Azula's every action doesn't mean I don't see her darker sides.

      Except when you put untrue positive spins on what she does, or ignore the fact that she clearly enjoys those acts independent of her motive.

      But saying that you have power doesn't make you power-hungry.

      A divine right to power, but keep downplaying.

      I don't want you to read anything. I clearly said "for anyone who is interested". You're not interested, fine by me.

      Well, seeing as we're at the point where you just repeat already-refuted arguments, I can't say I am.

      So even though I go off on Mako (and still have an analysis/tirade for another thread,) Bryke at least knew how to take the piss out of him and admit, "Yeah, we screwed up, he's not the Chosen One/Breakout Character we thought he'd be after all."

      Yeah, Kaguya forbid you say the great St. Kishimoto, his holy Uchiha pantheon, or Narussiah did anything wrong to the hardcore Naruto cult I mean religion I mean fandom I mean cult.

      Aside from the fact that Bryke were still new to the crazier part of fandom, (ex. they had no idea what shipping was until at least Book 2,)

      Yes, I am a new-fangled internet kid who expects all the old people to be in the know.

      So the Fire Nation being straightforward villains still would have apologists as did the grayer villains of Korra's era where immaterial of ideology, they, (except Unalaq,) were badass/cool-looking at what they did.

      I mean, a lot of people like the Disney villains, but I rarely see people saying they're actually the good guys. Though sometimes you could totally make that argument because Disney is pretty tone deaf, but I digress.

      Speaking of crack ships, I'm fondly reminded of Korra/HOWL long before LoK shipping regained its predecessor's toxicity.

      HOWL sounds like some Ducktales shit.

      Isn't it the consensus that Azula is, in fact, a psychopath? Her ravaging emotions due to the lack of parental love is what made her a psychopath.

      Good question. I've never thought it was in doubt, then I came here & I mostly see people arguing against it. Is it me (& you & O-kei apparently), or is it everyone else who's crazy? Who can say?

      But I would say that, at least if Mike & Bryan did their research, psychopaths are born, not created. Background changes their behavior, but not their essential nature. There's compelling evidence that the lack of empathy is physiological & genetic in origin.

      Which brings up another problem with redemption arcs: It's actually kind of dangerous to try to redeem a psychopath. You can teach strategies to try to mitigate their behavior, but if they decide they're not really interested in being more cooperative people they could just pick up tricks on how to better manipulate others. The success of therapy is kind of dependent on how much people want to change.

      I do not sympathize or feel an inkling of pity for her, however. She was an implied murderer, even from a young age. I just do not get the Naruto /Book 4 concept of villain sympathy/redemption.

      Same. Recognizing that villains can redeem is wisdom. Thinking it's inevitable is foolishness. And, dare I say, seems to lead to people wanting to give praise to villains who have taken few if any steps on that road, just to satiate the desire.

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    • I found the profile, they weren't deleted. There is no indication they are false: https://www.reddit.com/user/ehasz/comments/

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    • Of course she did feel love. Until the full force of her psychopathy took over. That doesn't change the fact that, if ATLA was not a TV-Y7 series, she is or would be a murderer. 

      She was a great villain though. I understand her completely I just don't pity her and a redemption arc would be near impossible considering how far she has fallen.

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    • Fireworshipper
      Fireworshipper removed this reply because:
      Because I want to remove it.
      16:33, September 11, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • They also portrayed her as having many opportunities to kill all of her major enemies, none of which she took, except that one time with Aang. She attempts to kill just as much as any of the other main characers because her attempts happen during combat situations, the same as theirs.

      Saying they should "rot" must have hurt Mai and Ty Lee really badly. In fact, they obviously suffered so much that the next time we see them, Mai is the happiest we see her in the entire series and Ty Lee is already BFFs with the Kyoshi Warriors, as cheerful as ever. But yeah, clearly they were subjected to horrible torture even though there's zero proof of this.

      Yes, Azula is definitely sombody who would plan ahead. But she can't predict the future. By your implication that Azula plans ahead, you're implying that she gave Zuko the opportunity to choose his path knowing that: she's going to shoot Aang full of lightning at some point during the fight and yet she's not going to kill him. And that sort of failure will require a scapegoat, so that's why she needs Zuko on her side! Therefore, throwing him to prison as she does with Iroh is not an option here, since clearly that's what she would have done if she had thought Aang couldn't survive. How forced is this implication? There is no evidence stated, shown, implied or indicated that Azula thought Aang survived before Zuko lied to her about it. Quiet to the contrary. When Azula saw that Zuko is distressed about seeing Ozai since he didn't capture the Avatar, she clearly said "Who cares? The Avatar is dead ... [Zuko looks away.] unless you think he somehow miraculously survived." The first part of the quote shows that Azula clearly thought that Aang is dead. In the second part of the quote, she asked him this because, at the very moment Azula said that Aang is dead Zuko looked away from her equally, if not more, as worried about seeing Ozai as before when this should have obviously relieved his worries. Azula noticed this and because of this she asks him whether or not he thinks Aang is alive.

      Yeah, crying in front of somebody is completely the same as lashing out at someone because they are actually making a valid point about how you're repressing your feelings. Azula didn't leverage Mai's brother against Team Avatar. She refused to exhchange Bumi, one of two most powerful earthbenders in the world and the King of Omashu, for Mai's brother because she didn't believe it was a fair trade. And this speaks far more poorly of Mai than of Azula. Mai doesn't protest against Azula here, but she protests, outright disobeys, when Azula tells her and Ty Lee to follow Sokka and Katara. It seems that she cares more about not getting wet and dirty than about her brother. If Mai cares so little for her own brother, there's no reason for Azula to care more.

      Azula didn't ask Ty Lee for advice or help after she apologized. Ty Lee started giving her advice on her own.

      Someone saying they "have a divine right to rule" is a poor excuse to call them power-hungry. Especially when they said it in the moment when they were trying to impress and take over leadership over a large group of potential henchmen and were trying to come off as being more powerful/stronger than the current leader of the said henchmen.

      No, you didn't overlook or ignore anything. Just ignored a bunch of things I said and then proceeded to tell me that I was wrong about situations in the series with no explanation or argumentation. Seems like you are the one who can't acknowledge the contexts, facts and instances which don't fit into your arguments.

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    • 1. *Polite golf clap at the time and effort it took to quote/edit and reply to all that in one go*

      2. I've been online since '01 and just as oblivious to the shipping until AtLA around Book 2 and in fairness, the combination of pop culture giants like Harry Potter + social media has poured gas on the fire. Also since I wasn't checking out Tumblr and the like (or this site) when the show wrapped up, I didn't know/blissfully forgot that the Ship Wars would return, let alone be Korrasami, (which I eventually understood the thirst for good LGBT representation) and Makorra (?! Again, similar to what was said about charisma, Mako's handsome enough to be forgiven for things like, y'know, gaslighting his ex-girlfriend,) with the bitterness still lingering to this day, (like Zutara.)

      3. Again, besides the fact that 2018 pop culture/politics is nothing like 2005 pop culture/politics, no matter how thorough and/or straightforward a message is of good vs. evil, the far-right co-opts shit like parasites and always have (ex. the swastika) and the "OK" sign (making that episode of "Malcolm in the Middle" "super-awkward,") has now been right-jacked. "Demolition Man" was completely straightforward about balancing society and John Spartan being a deconstruction of the usual Action Hero type yet look at the comments section and people are like, "This is if the Tumblrinas took over!" "This is America years from now!" "Edgar Friendly is right!"

      4. (separated this from #3 for clarity) Misaimed Fandom out of spite also applies like James Cameron's Avatar, (much to his frustration, the less popular IP with the name,) where despite the bad guys being a soulless Mega Corp that want the Space Injuns' Unobtanium, (sidebar: that blatant term really underlines how bare bones that movie really was,) it was easy to root for the bad guys because the Na'Vi were portrayed as so holier-than-thou, the Mega Corp having the cool vehicles and the Big Bad's badassness to the point of holding his breath on a toxic world until he could get in his mech! I could also point to the Music Meister from "Batman The Brave and The Bold" who was another world-dominator and attempted murderer, but he was just. so. damn. good. singing about it.

      5. I usually think of "Howl's Moving Castle" when I hear that acronym, but that's just me.

      6. Azula seemed like a genetic sociopath to me (ex. the animal abuse,) but one that was also brought up, (minus her mother's influence and I really don't get how people are like, "Ursa didn't love her enough/right") in an environment that encourages such behavior given how again, she was the favorite child epitomizing the mindset established by Sozin. Like an evil counterpart/predecessor to Korra, she's been raised/focused so much for combat that she's out of her element in a casual social setting (ex. "The Beach"). Contrast this to Aang, who debuted wanting to play with his character arc being about embracing his destiny and especially Zuko, who after getting the piss taken out of him, can kick back with the Gaang like he was always part of the group.

      7. @Fireworshipper you're really reminding me of that Mako Fanboy and Genso-No in not only being coming off clearly peeved/defensive, but repeating the same refuted lines like hammering them louder and harder'll make a difference. Seriously, as soon as you were saying you were rejecting what's canon simply because you don't like it, you auto-DQ'ed yourself. Like I loathe Book 2, but I don't pretend the Avatar Spirit isn't a giant Planarian-Kite. You might as well me saying, "No one knows you like I know, Slim, no one does."

      And 8. I've been restrained in making this connection, but this protectiveness really reminds me of the defenses for Mako/Makorra that try to downplay/excuse/justify Mako's lying, cheating, gaslighting and general ineptitude. Like I know he's not a villain and wasn't even mean-spirited about any of it, but it's all too similar to the point that so much shit's made up by his defenders that it's like a completely different character with the same name.

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    • I don't care about Mako or Genso-No in the slightest, certainly not enough to discuss their actions. You clearly didn't care to properly read through the arguments if you think they are the same. Nice way of lecturing me about not accepting canon, but you yourself don't acknowledge that Ursa herself canonically stated that she didn't love Azula enough when you said that you don't get how people infer this. Literally, Ursa said it herself in The Search.

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    • I don't care if you care about them, the point remains that all of you are irrationally protective of characters to the extent of rejecting canon simply because it doesn't agree with you (and amusingly, all three characters are firebenders.) At least Fanboy was blatant in his incel/neckbeard projection on Mako and was (unintentionally) hilarious at it.

      And I know that Ursa canonically said that, but the point is defenders like you are trying to spin/demonize her to excuse/justify Azula's behavior when Ursa feels guilty the same way a parent can't prevent their inherently psychopathic child from being a psychopath and still feels responsible just the same. Because again, Azula doesn't think, "Mom's scolding me, I should quit doing that." and instead thinks, "Mom's scolding me, but I'm not the problem, she can't love and scold me at the same time!" and continues to be Sabretooth. Again, you're still tripling-down on the same points Neo already refuted to hell. Also it's funny that suddenly you're embracing the canon you claimed to reject because it now suits you, so perhaps your obsession with Azula is because you relate to her.

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    • Fireworshipper wrote: I found the profile, they weren't deleted. There is no indication they are false: https://www.reddit.com/user/ehasz/comments/

      Try to actually go to the comments directly, & you'll find them missing. The way Reddit works, deleted comments still appear on your own profile. That is one of several red flags that they're fake, & also that's asking the wrong question, the right question is where's the proof that they're REAL?

      There's no "full force of psychopathy". Psychopaths don't feel love, at all.

      This is wrong:

      https://www.healthyplace.com/personality-disorders/psychopath/can-psychopaths-love-cry-or-experience-happiness

      "The lower on the scale a psychopath is, the more likely they are to develop some sort of love for people such as family members. Psychopaths are much less likely to develop deep bonds with others, however. Interestingly, psychopaths may still want to be loved even if they are almost incapable of truly loving another."

      http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/psychotic-affective-disorders/hidden-suffering-psychopath

      "Like healthy people, many psychopaths love their parents, spouse, children, and pets in their own way, but they have difficulty in loving and trusting the rest of the world."

      Just ignored a bunch of things I said and then proceeded to tell me that I was wrong about situations in the series with no explanation or argumentation.

      Well, I'm ignoring them now, because you can't fight this level of denial. This is just downright kettle logic, somehow you have to simultaneously maintain the belief that not only are my explanations wrong, but they also don't exist to begin with.

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    • I didn't demonize Ursa. And the only reason I "embraced" canon is because you were lecturing me about not "embracing" it and in order to point out what Ursa canonically said. It doesn't mean I like or agree with it. I too for a long time believed the consensus that Azula is a psychopath and never gave it much thought until trying to look at her actions more closely without the imposed demonization of her and always believing the worst possible conclusion about her. But I'm not asking you to agree with me. It's fine with me if you don't. I've spent more than enough time here.

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    • Her psychopathy isn't something to be agreed upon because she definitely is a psycho. 

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    • There are multiple kinds of mental illness than psychopathy and "psycho" is a kind of gross and dismissive way of referring to multiple kinds of mental illness ranging from psychopathy to psychosis or other mental illnesses that cause hallucinations

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    • I think in context it's pretty fair to assume "psycho" is meant to abbreviate "psychopath"?

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    • Fireworshipper wrote: I didn't demonize Ursa. And the only reason I "embraced" canon is because you were lecturing me about not "embracing" it and in order to point out what Ursa canonically said. It doesn't mean I like or agree with it. I too for a long time believed the consensus that Azula is a psychopath and never gave it much thought until trying to look at her actions more closely without the imposed demonization of her and always believing the worst possible conclusion about her. But I'm not asking you to agree with me. It's fine with me if you don't. I've spent more than enough time here.

      Neo already quoted and called you out on your bullshit about canon.

      And again, NOBODY is arguing that she isn't a complex, interesting character (unlike someone as bland and hyped as Ozai,) the issue is not to absolve her actions and motives as anything other than villainy. It's the same as Hannibal Lecter; no matter how smooth and sophisticated he is and regardless of the backstory about why he is the way he is, he's still a gleefully cannibalistic mofo that deserves to be in jail.

      Azula enjoyed tormenting animals, enjoyed messing with people's heads and especially enjoyed, (quite smugly, in fact,) taking Ba Sing Se from Long Feng by stating that his working up the social ladder meant jack shit compared to being born to rule, plus how pleased/relieved she looked when Ozai rewarded her loyalty by making her Fire Lord makes the "she's not power-hungry" claim's a bad joke.

      But the biggest joke you've told is "I'm not asking you to agree with me" when you've been linking, wall-texting and hammering home the exact same refuted points to convince us to do so that you clearly felt was an unfair attack on your favorite character and now have claimed you're taking your ball and going home. That is also exactly how Mako Fanboy went out when nobody would buy his "Mako is a special snowflake that got robbed of his lady love by mean ol' Bryke who let VILE Varrick not only live, but get married!" spiel.

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    • I tried to point out that Azula's every action isn't inherently bad, that she did some genuinely selfless things. Clearly you don't agree, very well. But seriously, Zuko throwing bread at the turtleducks and saying that's the way Azula feeds the turtleducks does not constitute that she enjoys torturing animals. That is a serious exaggeration and a matter of headcanon. Also, the thing to remember about the scene where Ozai gives her the title of Fire Lord is that just before that she was extremely upset by him rejecting her, and then her mood was temporarily lifted when he gave her the title. And we all know how short-lived her relief was. So, this short-lived relief does not constitute a lust for power. But again, we obviously don't agree on this. Just to be clear, I never stated that I believe she's a perfectly good, nice girl or a completely morally correct person. Anyway, can we simply agree to disagree and call it quits? Seems healthier since clearly neither one of us is gonna change our minds.

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