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  • In the avatar-verse. they clearly had already invented fire works. even the projectile ones too. this could of gave someone the idea of "boom sticks" like in disney's "Mulan" or Cannons that shen the pea cock created from "Kung Fu Panda 2" movie. This technology could of been easily been invented even in avatar roku era. But which nation could thought of building a gun first? and why? my bets are on the earth nation since they have the resources and man-power to build one for their king for entertainment purposes but it'll only be a proto-type that shoots fire works in the sky if u know what i mean. and the fire nation would be the alternative, giving they love to build weapons that'll be use for fear and show their power of their nation. But fire works would originated from the airbenders. (this is inspired by a true "story" that long ago, monks in asia invented fireworks so it'll work out fine in the avatar world too.)

    But in the end i'm sure it'll be invented. probably. This will also give non-benders a fair advantage in fights. There is alot of bad things that can come from fire-arms but there can be ALOT of good things too.

    For example: Authorities, Cops and Security will have a better chance to subdue benders who'll abuse there abilities. That's all i could think of. hehe lol. Go ahead & add more to the list of some good things about fire-arms being in the avatar world or even the bad ones too.

    (And FYi: This is not a "guns vs bending" topic.)

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    • Because guns are bad. And there was a gun, Kuvira made one for her colossus.

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    • I don't think it will be invented. I mean at this point it would alredy have been invented and i think the first guns would just be destroyed by fast bending. It would also make the fights less interesting (in my opinion) because it was when guns were invented that anyone could become a soldier. With guns few people can kill many wihout much training:

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    • Guns have been invented, alongside giant ass robots, re: Kuvira.

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    • They've already got cannons.  It's just that Bryke—for their own personal reasons, which are mostly centered around it making fights less interesting—don't want to include handheld firearms.

      But please note that even in the real world, sillyass arguments still sometimes manage to hold back technological advancement.  Therefore, I've contrived what the sillyass in-universe argument would probably be:

      • Inventor, seeking funding, proposes handheld cannons (smoothbore black-powder weapons).  That way, if one needed to field an army against another mass terrorist attack or would-be dictator, all one would need was a sufficient number of nonbenders with keen eyes and steady hands.
      • Potential financier says that it's an interesting idea; unfortunately, waterbenders could soak your powder, metalbenders could tie all of your weapons in knots, and Raava forbid you fail to get the drop on a combustionbender. 
      • Inventor doesn't get funded; sets the idea aside, and never gets back to it.

      Now, I have seen a concept in which Asami (who's already a successful businesswoman and engineer in her own right, and can therefore easily fund her own project) is the one to get the idea.  (The sillyass argument was actually addressed...in the sense that it was revealed that smoothbores had already been invented and gone nowhere due to the sillyass argument, and Asami decided to sidestep the sillyass argument completely by inventing the rifle.)  But we're still waiting to see how the longfic in question ends.

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    • Technology in this world hasn't been used to produce such weapons, and may we hope that it never does. Stick with swords, staffs, arrows and spears.

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    • FINALLY, someone other than myself that brings this up. 

      The technology and concepts to make at least a bolt action rifle and at most a machine gun like those used in WW1 is already in the Avatar Universe. 

      Honestly, I would have to agree with Deist Zealot in that most potential inventors would have a hard time gaining funding due to the fact that benders are plentiful and can easily compete with pre-industrial age fire arms (arquebuses, muskets of various types, early one shot rifles, etc). Most military/security contractors would more than likely opt for benders.

      However, there could be a possible market in civilian self defense, particularly for non benders. The equalist movement has come and gone, but the issues brought up by the equalist still occur even with a non bender as president, that is Bending gangs around the world targeting non-benders as easy targets for extortion, robbery, protection rackets, the works. Yes a non-bender could learn how to use a sword, club, bow, taser gauntlets, chi blocking, but all of those things except the gauntlet take time to learn. Also a simple set of linen or leather armor like a gambeson or buffcoat could easily protect a wearer from these weapons. The shock gauntlet is probably more expensive, has a very short range, and would still require martial arts training to be able to use effectively.

      As for a military wanting to invest in fire arms or cannons for that matter, the best reason would be as anti-armor weaponry. A Mech-suit for instance is quite capable of defeating or at least being on par with multiple benders, with even particualry strong or skilled benders having trouble completely knocking a single mech out. A firearms of sufficient caliber could easily take down a mech (as they are designed now) by simply killing the pilot via the viewports. Tanks would obviously benefit from a cannon or machine multiple gun emplacements. Naval vessels would benefit from gun platforms to deal with enemy planes, seeing how the more traditional defenses didn't fare to well against equalist attacks, see ing how the projectiles fired probably had a mush more limited range, and were slower requiring "gunners" to probably lead their targets by a large distance.  

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    • I'm not saying the market wouldn't exist, I'm saying it would be politically inconvenient. Pre-Korra, the nation most likely to invent guns would be the Fire Nation, & I don't think the Fire Lord would like the idea of arming civilians with these weapons. In the event of a revolt, let's say the civilians outnumber the army forces 10 to 1. They could miss 9 times out of 10 & still win.

      By Korra's time, we see that laws are being made explicitly with the interest of benders in mind, they were even able to institute a curfew targeting only nonbending citizens. So I'd think anyone who tried to make that kind of weapon would be hit with a ban pretty quickly, because the assumption would be that they'd mostly be used for crime, & anyone experiencing a crime should just call the police. It doesn't really matter whether or not the prejudicial attitude makes sense, it makes sense to the lawmakers, & that's what counts.

      If we're talking post-Book 4, things may have changed enough that it's the right political climate for the idea to get off of the ground.

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    • When you're living in a world where a waif-like preteen can take out 10 guys with a few jabs in under a minute, only weak, unskilled, cowardly losers use guns.

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    • Censorship reasons? It's pretty common in family-friendly animated shows to have guns fire laser beams. But, since laser guns would look too out of place in a 20s-30s setting like in Legend of Korra, they can't feature firearms at all.  However, I'd like it if they featured at least crossbows, which would be somewhat more family friendly.

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    • Well Neo, post Kuvira is the time period I would consider firearms and cannons to have the most chance of getting off the ground. The ability to create a self-loading firearm could be invented, thanks to Kuvira's spirit energy cannon which featured most if not all of the major design aspects and concepts to make a self-loading firearm. These design choices include, a rifled barrel (which is unusual given the cannon fired energy beams), the concept of cartridge ammunition, and a mechanical reloading system which was belt fed. 

      I agree that the URN would most likely ban firearms for civilian use due to the possibility for use by criminals, but thats also another source for funding, criminals. Criminal organizations would most likely see the advantage of firearms used in tandem with benders against law enforcement. Crime would most likely go on a rise and law enforcement/civilain casualties would rise along with it, so in order to combat such a threat we could potentially see politicians lobbying to arm police with firearms. 

      Of course the question is how would they be able to manufacture these weapons if the Government puts a ban on them? Well, they could invest in underground factories like the equalists did, or they could move operations across the border into the Earth Nation. Considering most of the Earth Empire's military forces were still intact when Kuvira surrendered, there would still be elements of the army still willing to fight, and possibly become fractured by generals turn warlords. The EE fractured or not would still have the economic and military power to be able to resist Wu's new government and fighting would most likely continue for years. Triads could take advantage of the turmoil of the Earth nation to be able to set up gun running and manufacturing operations in the region and trade with the Earth Empire remnants or any other warlords. 

      (P.S. Hey Neo its been awhile, how have you been?)

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      When you're living in a world where a waif-like preteen can take out 10 guys with a few jabs in under a minute, only weak, unskilled, cowardly losers use guns.

      yes, but it will not stop the cowardly, unskilled, and loser guy of use it, if I learned something about the war is that any advantage will be welcome in a fight, regardless how dishonorable could be, only remember the crossbow and the ban of the catholic church, it didn't stop the knights of use it.

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    • Yeah, you would. But a good writer won't.

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    • Maybe it never occurred to anyone. Besides, considering the technology we've seen employed by this period, it could be that there just isn't an interest in making them; we've seen weaponry that goes past simple firearms already.

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    • It could be that the guns were never necessary.. It's obvious through history that people created weapons: bombs, guns, cannons, for the reason that they needed more power to overtake their target - if people had bending they would already be powerful enough to erect giant walls, destroy entire villages, drown endless homes and devastate entire towns with fire, so why would they need to create guns?

      I'd say the only chance of weapons of mass desruction being created may improve is if there is need for HUGE CHANGE or if the nonbenders revolted - though even then it seems that their efforts would be quashed before their plans saw the light of day. It would be interesting to see an arc of some kind of underground 'weapons creation ring' by nonbenders to get strong enough to rival benders though - kind of like Amon's move in removing people's bending except instead of weakening benders, they're empowering nonbenders.

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    • I think the in-universe answer would be that benders are so powerful that one needs very specific techniques and high tech like the kind the equalists used to be able to take them out. Because of that, perhaps there isn't enough incentive to push for the creation of guns, as facing benders requires more adapted and/or more powerful methods. How much that is justified can be debated, but I think that is the basic reasoning.

      Still, all other kinds of weapons and firearms do exist in the Avatar world in some form or another, even bow and arrows... And even if guns were useless against benders, there would still be useful against another non-bender.

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    • Gray Catbird wrote:
      I think the in-universe answer would be that benders are so powerful that one needs very specific techniques and high tech like the kind the equalists used to be able to take them out. Because of that, perhaps there isn't enough incentive to push for the creation of guns, as facing benders requires more adapted and/or more powerful methods.

      How much that is justified can be debated, but I think that is the basic reasoning.

      Still, all other kinds of weapons and firearms do exist in the Avatar world in some form or another, even bow and arrows... And even if guns were useless against benders, there would still be useful against another non-bender.

      This past Christmas, I pointed out that even in the real world, sillyass arguments end up holding back technological progress.  (To summarize: an inventor suggests that something along the lines of handheld cannons would make it easier to field an army in the face of another would-be dictator or large-scale terrorist attack, on the grounds that all you'd need would be enough nonbenders with keen eyes and steady hands.  Their potential financier says that it'd be a good idea unless the enemy had metalbenders or even waterbenders...and Raava forbid they've got a combustionbender on whom your armed nonbenders fail to get the drop.)

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    • Humans made guns for defensive pourposes if you can bend whats the point?

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    • Count Kibbles N Bits
      Count Kibbles N Bits removed this reply because:
      accidental reply
      11:04, April 5, 2017
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    • Deist Zealot wrote:

      This past Christmas, I pointed out that even in the real world, sillyass arguments end up holding back technological progress.  (To summarize: an inventor suggests that something along the lines of handheld cannons would make it easier to field an army in the face of another would-be dictator or large-scale terrorist attack, on the grounds that all you'd need would be enough nonbenders with keen eyes and steady hands.  Their potential financier says that it'd be a good idea unless the enemy had metalbenders or even waterbenders...and Raava forbid they've got a combustionbender on whom your armed nonbenders fail to get the drop.)


      Well gunpowder based projectile weapons probably would start out as firearms but instead as artillery pieces in order to counter new advances in armored vehicles such as tanks, battleships, planes, and mechs. Considering benders have a difficult time when fighting mechanised opponents, artillery guns would be more readily adopted my militaries. 

      Over time smaller more compact "guns" would be developed to be fielded by tanks and mecha, while larger guns would be developed for ships. Eventually, some inventor(s) would attempt to create "hand cannons"

      One reason for the adoption of firearms would be to increase the combat effectiveness of infantry. Most bending battles are depicted to occur around 100 yards/meters with some longer range engagements that occur rarely (even on these occassions characters seem to have a preference to get closer to their enemies). At longer distances accuracy would become a major issue. With firearms, a rifle man would be able to outrange a bender significantly and be able to engage enemy targets from several hundred yards quite easily. 

      Another thing, most benders seem to have a preference to standing up to fight, possible due to the variety of movements nescessary to bend effectively. Guns would allow users to assume safer more inconspicuous positions while still have the ability to engage the enemy, for example whilst laying prone. 

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    • .. most bending battles are up close.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      .. most bending battles are up close.

      Ok...I said that already, just in way more words. 

      As for metal bending the guns themselves, there nothing stopping people from using platinum in gun designs. The same amount of platinum used to make a mech could possibly be used to make a few hundred gun barrels. 

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    • I think he's saying that bending battles occur a lot closer than 100 yards, though I think the problem with what both of you are saying on that front is that we don't actually see a lot of full scale battles between opposing armies. If, for instance, Kuvira was actually forced to transport the Spirit Cannon via train as had been predicted, the following sequence would have played out much differently & probably not had nearly as much guerilla warfare. So I guess I'm saying that bending battles in war would be much longer ranged than they usually are, & 100 yards actually isn't such an unreasonable estimate.

      As for protecting guns against metalbenders, I think that's sort of a fool's errand. If you're not making the bullets out of platinum then they would be able to destroy those, & if you are, then you're just wasting the stuff. Better to just shoot them from far enough away that they can't do anything about it, or find another way to dispose of them.

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    • The funny thing about that 100 yard estimate, in the real world most firefights between infantry occur within 100 yards and occassionally under 200. This i found out days after I made the comment, thanks to this article: http://donaldmsensing.blogspot.com/2003/06/infantry-rifle-combat-distances.html

      (Take this article with a bit of salt)

      The most we've seen of large scale battles are the Battle of the Northern Water tribe and the Invasion. It seems as though during the Hundred year war, most benders were used as skirmishers/light infantry and at times shock troops, being the first to begin combat by harrassing enemy lines with ranged bending or screening (protecting) their own lines using their bending defensively or through suppression. Non-benders seem to take up all regular roles including skirmishing (as archers or cavalry) in the military, but are mostly deployed in mass as heavy infantry using spears and shields (shields being capable of tanking enemy bending attacks ). Earth kingdom helmets are large enough and strong enough to be used as small shields, as evident by Zuko and Iroh's fight with 5 earthbenders

      Oddly, the modern Nations of LoK use only benders as combat troops even though evidence shows massed heavy Non-bender infantry worked well in unison with benders. Id assume either high attrition rates for frontline infantry, prefrences for benders , and/or demiltirazation following the war's end favoring smaller armies with quicker more combat ready troops in which benders would excel at. 

      It seems the nations adopted the full use of bender skirmishers/shock troops in replacement of heavy melee infantry as their primary combat doctrine. Firearms, would compliment this style well giving benders the ability to easily counter heavily armored troops (seeing as  how shields and armor are effective against bending) and lessening the skill gap between opponents. A novice bender with a gun would be relatively equal to a master bender without a gun. 

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    • being that Ty lee was able to take out dozens of benders using simple moderately quick attacks to block a bender's chi the use of firearms would make bending obsolute for large scale wars. ty lee wasn't moving extremily fast her strikes were quick but no where near as quick as a bullet. we see Aang run on water which would mean he was running atleast 60 mph but no where near as fast as a bullet. earth benders could create instant barriers that would protect them from bullets but supressive fire from a handgun could atleast keep the battle mid to long range meaning the earthbenders couldn't get up close and personal to use any martial arts skill. artilary shells could be used to get around an earthbenders wall's. a group of airbenders could be used to keep soldiers armed with firearms in line since they could create tornados and such, but if an army employed the use of both benders and handguns a skilled bender using a handgun or firearm in general could dominate dozens of skilled benders in a fight

      example

      lets say earth kindom and fire nation are at war. the earth kingdom has bult a massive trench to hide in and are constantly lobbing boulders over to the fire nations side. a small group of fire benders run then use fire bending to launch themselves dozens of feet in the air all of them are holding onto a thomson sub machine gun, then viola these firebenders then unload round after round on the earth kingdom trench


      what do you think such a weapon would do to the moral of the said earth kingdom soldiers? just imagine you have a couple hundred soldiers hunkered down in a trench and a couple of firebenders leap in the air and start raining down bullets from a gun that can shoot 700 rounds per minute and shoot its rounds at a muzzel velocity of 935 ft/s or 637.5 mph


      or just imagine two benders fighting lets say 1 is a fire bender the other is a water bender. all of a sudden the water bender slashes the fire away and yanks out a handgun and BAM the waterbender kills the fire bender.



      the fact is firearms would be a deciding factor between two armies even if both armies were full of bending masters. 

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    • "the fact is firearms would be a deciding factor between two armies even if both armies were full of bending masters"


      Which is why it would be idiotic for the writers to add them.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      "the fact is firearms would be a deciding factor between two armies even if both armies were full of bending masters"


      Which is why it would be idiotic for the writers to add them.

      No, that would depend enitrely on how well firearms are implemented with the avatar universe in conjunction with things like bending, spirit energy, and MECHA; by the writers. 

      Another thing to point out, firearms (if implemented) would not be the be all end all deciding factor on which side wins a battle, the ability of combatants to use guns in conjunction with bedning and their skill with both would play a much larger role in deciding a battle. i.e. TACTICS, SKILL, and TRAINING. This is why Aang and the GAang could lay waste to dozens of the royal earthbender guard and later on the Dai Li. In real life well trained and/or experienced soldiers are able to instill more casualties against lesser trained but more numerous gun wielding foes. 

      If a novice with a gun attempted to duel a master bender, the use if a firearm makes them about equal. The duel would depend upon the gunman's skill at marksmanship, how much ammunition he has, and the master's ability to react and defend against the firearm using his own skill and abilities.

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    • Except that the difference between a gun novice and a gun master in a non-stationary fight is who shoots first

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Except that the difference between a gun novice and a gun master in a non-stationary fight is who shoots first

      Not really, the diffrence is speed, accuracy, and focus. Just because you shoot first and fire off several rounds deosn't mean you'll actually hit your target or kill them instantly if you managed to hit them. If your target is wounded but still alive they are still going to continue firing at you.

      Speed is the ability to react quickly to a changing situation, quickly ready your weapon, quickly reloading, and getting your sights on target

      Accuracy: Judge and compensate for things like distance and movement in order to hit your opponent. 

      Focus: Being calm under fire. 

      If we are talking about a non stationary fight than tactical use of cover and flanking is also a large factor. 

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Because guns are bad. And there was a gun, Kuvira made one for her colossus.


      It wasn't actually a gun it was a spirit weapon

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    • What if a metal bender used a gun like seeking weapons or something?

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    • The dependency on bending was a big push. It also may have to do with the idea that someone knew that if something similar to the equalist reveloution were to happen that they would be screwed. Another idea would be that they didn't think anybody should have that kind of destructive murder power.

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    • PC Emulator man66 wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      Because guns are bad. And there was a gun, Kuvira made one for her colossus.


      It wasn't actually a gun it was a spirit weapon


      ​​​​​​However, her energy cannon seemed similar to a gun, although it was a cannon.

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    • An anonymous contributor
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