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  • Lady Lostris
    Lady Lostris closed this thread because:
    All constructive things have been said, consensus has been reached.
    08:29, December 20, 2015

    Do you think the final battle at the Northern Air Temple could've been prevented? Some people on here insist it couldn't've, but now I'm asking you, the users, what you think.

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    • It's not about it could or could not have been prevented. The addition of such a point in the trivia section is pointless. And seriously, kudosing your own message?

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    • I'm only here because the thumbnail was clickbait.

      Yes, it could've been prevented. But it happened, and it is a fixed point in time, so it can't be changed. It could have been prevented under a different set of circumstances, but as it wasn't, there is no changing that single moment in time and history. As the Tenth Doctor once said, “Always take a banana to a party. Bananas are good.” What that has to do with the thread, I've no idea, but my point is, it could've been changed, but it wasn't, should it have been changed, perhaps, it would've been different, but it wasn't so it shan't, and it shan't so it can't, and it can't so it won't, and what would've happened could've, but didn't, and that is what matters.

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    • Omnibender wrote:
      It's not about it could or could not have been prevented. The addition of such a point in the trivia section is pointless. And seriously, kudosing your own message?

      Well, NOBODY ASKED YOU!

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    • SorcererSupreme21 wrote:
      I'm only here because the thumbnail was clickbait.

      Yes, it could've been prevented. But it happened, and it is a fixed point in time, so it can't be changed. It could have been prevented under a different set of circumstances, but as it wasn't, there is no changing that single moment in time and history. As the Tenth Doctor once said, “Always take a banana to a party. Bananas are good.” What that has to do with the thread, I've no idea, but my point is, it could've been changed, but it wasn't, should it have been changed, perhaps, it would've been different, but it wasn't so it shan't, and it shan't so it can't, and it can't so it won't, and what would've happened could've, but didn't, and that is what matters.

      That's not the point of my edit.

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    • Sorry, missed this general thread before I left a message about this on your wall. Anyway, to group the conversation, I'll copy/paste here what I've said on your wall as well:

      You added, "The final battle could've been prevented if Aang hadn't interrupted the mechanist and War Minister Qin's business." You are correct about that, Qin literally said as much. However, it's not because it's factually correct that it is therefor relevant, because we could add notes like that on every episode page. For example: On "The Desert", Appa would not have been stolen by the sandbenders if Aang had not entered Wan Shi Tong's Library with the others. Or on "The Storm", Zuko would not have gotten his scar if he had not spoken out against the general. Or on "The Crossroads of Destiny", Azula would have lost if Zuko did not side with her.

      The point I'm trying to make with that is that we could always make such statements on different episode pages stating what would or would not have happened if something did or did not happen in the way it transpired in the episode. None of that is particularly interesting to explicitly note on the page, as it is always implied in the text: if A happened in the episode causing B to occur, then it is implied that if A did not happen, B would not have happened either (in most cases anyway, or at least not in the form that it transpired in the episode). As such, the added trivia was rightfully removed in my opinion.

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    • GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      Omnibender wrote:
      It's not about it could or could not have been prevented. The addition of such a point in the trivia section is pointless. And seriously, kudosing your own message?

      Well, NOBODY ASKED YOU!

      You asked the community. I'm a very active member of this community, ergo, you did ask me.

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    • Not much else to say, but LL summed it up quite nicely.

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    • Omnibender wrote:

      GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      Omnibender wrote:
      It's not about it could or could not have been prevented. The addition of such a point in the trivia section is pointless. And seriously, kudosing your own message?
      Well, NOBODY ASKED YOU!
      You asked the community. I'm a very active member of this community, ergo, you did ask me.

      I asked the Users, not the Admins.

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    • GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      Omnibender wrote:

      GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      Omnibender wrote:
      It's not about it could or could not have been prevented. The addition of such a point in the trivia section is pointless. And seriously, kudosing your own message?
      Well, NOBODY ASKED YOU!
      You asked the community. I'm a very active member of this community, ergo, you did ask me.

      I asked the Users, not the Admins.

      Admins are users. There is absolutely no way the words in your opening comment don't include me as part of the community.

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    • GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      I asked the Users, not the Admins.

      I'm confused about the reason why administrators would not be allowed to give their opinion on this matter. Especially since you also excluded a non-administrator from voicing his opinion on this matter. So ... who can still voice their opinion?

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    • Omnibender wrote:

      GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      Omnibender wrote:

      GodsOfMetal666 wrote:


      Omnibender wrote:
      It's not about it could or could not have been prevented. The addition of such a point in the trivia section is pointless. And seriously, kudosing your own message?
      Well, NOBODY ASKED YOU!
      You asked the community. I'm a very active member of this community, ergo, you did ask me.
      I asked the Users, not the Admins.
      Admins are users. There is absolutely no way the words in your opening comment don't include me as part of the community.

      I wasn't referring to people who know it.

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    • Lady Lostris wrote:

      GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      I asked the Users, not the Admins.

      I'm confused about the reason why administrators would not be allowed to give their opinion on this matter. Especially since you also excluded a non-administrator from voicing his opinion on this matter. So ... who can still voice their opinion?

      People who don't know.

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    • Who don't know what? The events that happened in the episode? Because that's all that the trivia does: it rewrites the event of the episode that said "A caused B" to say as a trivia "If A wouldn't have happened, it would not have caused B". Which is a stating the obvious.

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    • Lady Lostris wrote:
      Who don't know what? The events that happened in the episode? Because that's all that the trivia does: it rewrites the event of the episode that said "A caused B" to say as a trivia "If A wouldn't have happened, it would not have caused B". Which is a stating the obvious.

      The situation.

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    • So that's all covered by

      Lady Lostris wrote: The events that happened in the episode? Because that's all that the trivia does: it rewrites the event of the episode that said "A caused B" to say as a trivia "If A wouldn't have happened, it would not have caused B". Which is a stating the obvious.

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    • Lady Lostris wrote:
      So that's all covered by

      Lady Lostris wrote: The events that happened in the episode? Because that's all that the trivia does: it rewrites the event of the episode that said "A caused B" to say as a trivia "If A wouldn't have happened, it would not have caused B". Which is a stating the obvious.

      Not that situation.

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    • Then which?

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    • Lady Lostris wrote:
      Then which?

      THE EDITS!!!!!

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    • What was wrong with the edits? The only issue was that they evolved in an edit war, the pointless back and forth of adding, removing, then adding and removing again the same trivia point over and over.

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    • Lady Lostris wrote:
      What was wrong with the edits? The only issue was that they evolved in an edit war, the pointless back and forth of adding, removing, then adding and removing again the same trivia point over and over.

      You should've left the edits alone.

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    • You said you wanted to ask the users, so here's my opinion: it wasn't needed, this argument certainly isn't needed, and when in doubt about how something should go, I will generally side with the admins, as they have been at this way longer than I have, and I trust their judgment.

      There are always what ifs in any story. My whole fanon starts off with a simple what if. That doesn't mean I should add my plot ideas to the trivia section of Into the Inferno.

      Finally, I'm quite sure that this episode is not the only one where a character claimed that things would be different if only so-and-so hadn't taken certain actions. It's not worthy of note any more than anything else the characters said in that episode.

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    • Katrinasforest wrote:
      You said you wanted to ask the users, so here's my opinion: it wasn't needed, this argument certainly isn't needed, and when in doubt about how something should go, I will generally side with the admins, as they have been at this way longer than I have, and I trust their judgment.

      There are always what ifs in any story. My whole fanon starts off with a simple what if. That doesn't mean I should add my plot ideas to the trivia section of Into the Inferno.

      Finally, I'm quite sure that this episode is not the only one where a character claimed that things would be different if only so-and-so hadn't taken certain actions. It's not worthy of note any more than anything else the characters said in that episode.

      I'm asking the community.

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    • GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      I'm asking the community.

      Everyone who has answered you so far is part of this community, so I'm not sure who you're waiting for.

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    • You were asking "the users, not the admins" when an admin disagreed with you. Now you are "asking the community" when a user disagrees with you.

      If you are only speaking to people who agree with you, then I have nothing more to contribute to this conversation. Best of luck with resolving this issue.

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    • Lady Lostris wrote:

      GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      I'm asking the community.

      Everyone who has answered you so far is part of this community, so I'm not sure who you're waiting for.

      You know what, the things you say don't matter anymore.

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    • Katrinasforest wrote:
      You were asking "the users, not the admins" when an admin disagreed with you. Now you are "asking the community" when a user disagrees with you.

      If you are only speaking to people who agree with you, then I have nothing more to contribute to this conversation. Best of luck with resolving this issue.

      I said everybody who hasn't said anything on it.

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    • GodsOfMetal666 wrote: I said everybody who hasn't said anything on it.

      As a user who hasn't had anything to say on this matter so far or was involved with your trivia edit at any point in time, I'll say this: Lady Lostris is completely correct. Pages are not meant to be an endless list of trivia, and speculation is banned from all canonical pages period. If you start second-guessing every possible scenario, you'll never stop.

      Also, if you ask the community, there will be people who disagree with you, that's the risk you take. Bottom line: let it drop.

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    • AvatarAang7 wrote:

      GodsOfMetal666 wrote: I said everybody who hasn't said anything on it.

      As a user who hasn't had anything to say on this matter so far or was involved with your trivia edit at any point in time, I'll say this: Lady Lostris is completely correct. Pages are not meant to be an endless list of trivia, and speculation is banned from all canonical pages period. If you start second-guessing every possible scenario, you'll never stop.

      Also, if you ask the community, there will be people who disagree with you, that's the risk you take. Bottom line: let it drop.

      The addition wasn't speculation at all.

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    • GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      AvatarAang7 wrote:

      GodsOfMetal666 wrote: I said everybody who hasn't said anything on it.

      As a user who hasn't had anything to say on this matter so far or was involved with your trivia edit at any point in time, I'll say this: Lady Lostris is completely correct. Pages are not meant to be an endless list of trivia, and speculation is banned from all canonical pages period. If you start second-guessing every possible scenario, you'll never stop.

      Also, if you ask the community, there will be people who disagree with you, that's the risk you take. Bottom line: let it drop.

      The addition wasn't speculation at all.

      Technically, you're right, conjecture would be the better word, but the problem stands. It's a low quality edit that does not belong on the canonical page.

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    • AvatarAang7 wrote:

      GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      AvatarAang7 wrote:

      GodsOfMetal666 wrote: I said everybody who hasn't said anything on it.

      As a user who hasn't had anything to say on this matter so far or was involved with your trivia edit at any point in time, I'll say this: Lady Lostris is completely correct. Pages are not meant to be an endless list of trivia, and speculation is banned from all canonical pages period. If you start second-guessing every possible scenario, you'll never stop.

      Also, if you ask the community, there will be people who disagree with you, that's the risk you take. Bottom line: let it drop.

      The addition wasn't speculation at all.

      Technically, you're right, conjecture would be the better word, but the problem stands. It's a low quality edit that does not belong on the canonical page.

      It's not conjecture either. It DOES belong.

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    • Considering no real counterarguments are given, we can close the discussion on this matter. Of the 7 people involved in this thread, 6 are against the re-addition. With that, we can conclude that consensus is in favor of not adding the trivia to the page. It would be appreciated if said consensus is honored towards the future.

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    • Lady Lostris wrote:
      Considering no real counterarguments are given, we can close the discussion on this matter. Of the 7 people involved in this thread, 6 are against the re-addition. With that, we can conclude that consensus is in favor of not adding the trivia to the page. It would be appreciated if said consensus is honored towards the future.

      I already told you, the things you say don't matter anymore.

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    • And I told you that this wiki is run by the community, which is all of us. So as such, we hold these talks where multiple people participate in. Everyone's opinion matters equally, regardless of any additional rights they may hold. In the end, it is the majority consensus that dictates the course of action on this wiki, or in this specific case, the fate of that trivia. As noted, a 6 to 1 majority is against the addition of the trivia, so that is what we will go with. It would be nice if you could respect the way this wiki works and the community that makes it work by honoring the decisions the community made.

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    • Lady Lostris wrote:
      And I told you that this wiki is run by the community, which is all of us. So as such, we hold these talks where multiple people participate in. Everyone's opinion matters equally, regardless of any additional rights they may hold. In the end, it is the majority consensus that dictates the course of action on this wiki, or in this specific case, the fate of that trivia. As noted, a 6 to 1 majority is against the addition of the trivia, so that is what we will go with. It would be nice if you could respect the way this wiki works and the community that makes it work by honoring the decisions the community made.

      LALALALA I'm not listening.

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    • GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      I already told you, the things you say don't matter anymore.

      Several users asked you to present your case in good faith and you've given no substantial reasoning as to why the trivia point should remain, on top of the fact that you maintain a hostile and uncooperative tone during discussion. Community consensus is clearly against the point so if you choose to re-add the trivia in the future regardless then it will be in the territory of deliberate unconstructive contributions and you will be formally warned.

      Since this is an informal discussion board, you still have the option to take the case to the war room for formal discussion, though the results will most likely stay the same.

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    • Water Spout wrote:

      GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      I already told you, the things you say don't matter anymore.

      Several users asked you to present your case in good faith and you've given no substantial reasoning as to why the trivia point should remain, on top of the fact that you maintain a hostile and uncooperative tone during discussion. Community consensus is clearly against the point so if you choose to re-add the trivia in the future regardless then it will be in the territory of deliberate unconstructive contributions and you will be formally warned.

      Since this is an informal discussion board, you still have the option to take the case to the war room for formal discussion, though the results will most likely stay the same.

      I've given more than enough reasoning. I'm re-adding it whether you like it or not.

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    • GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      Water Spout wrote:

      GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      I already told you, the things you say don't matter anymore.

      Several users asked you to present your case in good faith and you've given no substantial reasoning as to why the trivia point should remain, on top of the fact that you maintain a hostile and uncooperative tone during discussion. Community consensus is clearly against the point so if you choose to re-add the trivia in the future regardless then it will be in the territory of deliberate unconstructive contributions and you will be formally warned.

      Since this is an informal discussion board, you still have the option to take the case to the war room for formal discussion, though the results will most likely stay the same.

      I've given more than enough reasoning. I'm re-adding it whether you like it or not.

      No you haven't. Re-add it if you wish, but like I said a formal warning will be issued given that it is clear that the addition is unconstructive and against community consensus. If you continue to do so even after that point then we will have to issue a block. This is not an intimidation tactic- I am just letting you know that there will be consequences if you continue to move forward with this, and it's not worth it for a trivia point.

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    • Besides, the page is still protected against edits by anyone lacking sysop rights, you wouldn't even be able to do it until it expires or is removed.

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    • Water Spout wrote:

      GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      Water Spout wrote:

      GodsOfMetal666 wrote:

      I already told you, the things you say don't matter anymore.

      Several users asked you to present your case in good faith and you've given no substantial reasoning as to why the trivia point should remain, on top of the fact that you maintain a hostile and uncooperative tone during discussion. Community consensus is clearly against the point so if you choose to re-add the trivia in the future regardless then it will be in the territory of deliberate unconstructive contributions and you will be formally warned.

      Since this is an informal discussion board, you still have the option to take the case to the war room for formal discussion, though the results will most likely stay the same.

      I've given more than enough reasoning. I'm re-adding it whether you like it or not.

      No you haven't. Re-add it if you wish, but like I said a formal warning will be issued given that it is clear that the addition is unconstructive and against community consensus. If you continue to do so even after that point then we will have to issue a block. This is not an intimidation tactic- I am just letting you know that there will be consequences if you continue to move forward with this, and it's not worth it for a trivia point.

      The edit is NOT unconstructive. I don't care what you do.

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    • Omnibender wrote:
      Besides, the page is still protected against edits by anyone lacking sysop rights, you wouldn't even be able to do it until it expires or is removed.

      I DON'T CARE!!!!!!

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