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  • The lengend of Korra was a great show till the very end well the very last episode with the Asami/Korra thing I mean it came out of nowhere like poof their your ending no real visaul build up and frankly I found it disturbing. Avatar showed a more visual relation between Aang and Katara and it seems I lot more likeable ending then the Legend of korra. So tell me what you think about it OK to all those out their.

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    • Aang followed a classic heroes journey Korras was an off the beat and path journey so it's kinda fitting for korra to end up Asami, even though it could have been handled better, I blame nick for this more than the writers.

      I agree Aangs relationship with katara was handled much better, Biggest problem with the latter is korra and asami were barley put through challenges together they just did their own thing until the end of book 4 and a little at the end book three.

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    • They're a lesbian couple in a show that is percieved for being about kids; they couldn't really be over the top with a romance ro the parents and moral guardians would have complained

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    • Once again, there were hints at least as early as book three. In book four, they spent more and more time together and visibly grew closer. Maybe you didn't see it, but plenty of us did.

      As for "blaming Nick not the writers"...wut? They approached Nick and asked them if they could do it. It wasn't Nick's idea and Nick never told them they couldn't in the first place.

      What kind of "challenges"? They were important in the defeat of the Equalist Revolution, Water Tribe Civil War, the battle over Harmonic Convergence. They broke out of captivity and ventured through a desert with a giant sand monster. They collaborated with others and beat a terrorist cell of extremely powerful benders. They played major roles in the planning and preparation for the impending Earth Empire assault on Republic City and fought the Colossus. They were definitely comrades in arms and took on way more combat challenges than any couple I've ever met.

      As for personal situations, they both dated the same person, dealt with the betrayal and death of Asami's father, dealt with the betrayal and death of Korra's uncle, dealt with Asami becoming the president of a major disgraced corporation, went through Korra coming into her own as the fully realized Avatar (which carries myriad political and other responsibilities), dealt with a potentially life crippling injury with PTSD for Korra after Zaheer, and Asami taught Korra how to drive (which would be horrifying), among other things. That's a ton of difficult personal stuff to deal with emotionally, which they went through together.

      They faced many challenging situations while being close friends. Why is this crazy out of left field that their bond grew kind of strong through all of this? Yet, it's fine that she tells Mako she loves him after maybe 1/4 of this (which Asami was there for much of anyways)? Aang only knew Katara for about a year (again, Asami and Korra knew each other for around four times that). Why is this bad writing or "not building the relationship", when the others aren't?

      Katara and Aang, YMMV, but I thought they kind of sucked as a couple, with little chemistry and they were just "the obvious couple" because she was the girl that was in the story the entire time and she's just part of his prize.

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    • I was referring to book 4 like they were separate for it. Book 2 korra and asami were separate as well. Book 1 they were sort of together through equalist stuff. Even if what you mentioned is true, It's not shown to the audience rather not brought up or just told.

      Seriously that's what you thought of aang and katara.

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    • As for "blaming Nick not the writers"...wut? They approached Nick and asked them if they could do it. It wasn't Nick's idea and Nick never told them they couldn't in the first place.

      I still say it's fair to lay at least some blame on Nick.

      Yes, they gave the okay, allowed Mike & Bryan to say the "B-word," & even threw some official advertisement behind the pairing after seeing how well-received it was. For all of that, good on them.

      However, we can still infer that Nick was taking a very "test the waters" approach, & that this is why the show itself does not verbally acknowledge the relationship, plus that awkward penultimate frame where it looks like they want to kiss but aren't allowed or something.

      We can only really speculate what things would've been like if Mike & Bryan asked sooner. Maybe we could've seen more happen in the show, but maybe they wouldn't have been open to the idea back then.

      As to the rest of that, thank shit you came here 1st, I'm getting tired of addressing the same subject ad nauseum. I don't understand why people keep getting this idea that "hey, did you see the lesbians, wtf?" is a unique discussion that hasn't occurred before.

      Seriously that's what you thought of aang and katara.

      I, for one, don't think they're bad together, but the fact that so many people hold it up as an example of a great romance arc, I'm sorry, you need to get your eyes checked. Insofar as it's the typical "designated couple" & "girl you get after saving the world" situation that's been repeated endlessly, he's absolutely right. And there were definitely a fair few forced moments, like their fight in the catacombs

      Though that was worth it just for the line, "I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die! It's a compliment!"

      To be quite honest, I only became even remotely interested in them after they were already together, because it meant no more of that "will they or won't they" shtick--we'd have to see how they actually turned out together.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:Though that was worth it just for the line, "I'm saying I'd rather kiss you than die! It's a compliment!"

      Yeah, I'd have to agree that line was pretty amusing. I do also agree that honestly, there wasn't that much more in terms of development re; Aang and Katara in a romantic sense over the course of the series than I saw with Korra and Asami during LoK - and ATLA is actually longer in terms of total episode count(61, compared to 52 for LoK), so they had more time to develop their cast and the relationships between them within the framework of the story. The only real difference is that you had them actually kissing in the finale and in one episode, and that it was established as a romantic pairing very early on. By contrast, Korra and Asami started out as friends, and gradually over time reached the point of a romantic relationship, which only begins as the series ends. 

      Honestly, looking at it overall, I thought they were about equally well developed, for the most part. And for my part, as I watched LoK I could see the relationship develop and it felt natural to me. 

      So no, I don't think it came out of nowhere, and I certainly don't think that alone makes it a bad ending - which I don't think it is regardless. Seriously - take the entirety of Korra and Asami's interactions over the course of the show, and ask yourself this: Would you feel the same way if the character of Asami were replaced by a guy? In the case of most people I've talked to about it, the answer is no. 

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    • ...actually, I might. I'm not really so big a fan of "long-lost love stories where the heroes get together after having been separated for years with very little to no conversation between them in that time". Didn't like it with Roku, either, but there at least there was some chance because an indefinite amount of time passes between his return and his wedding (enough to get to know the bride). Zuko and Mai? From the hints I got, it seemed like they were practically betrothed already (and note that never does Mai actually fight Zuko in Book 2), and yeah, I still wasn't so keen on it.

      Maybe I'm just not good with that type of romance. Speaking from experience, you really need some kind of contact to go on, not just a couple of conversations here or there over the course of years. Korra and Asami was definitely one of those.

      ...has anybody noticed that nobody ever gets time off in LoK? No mini-vacations or anything?

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    • More what I mean is that it's not "more Nick's fault than the writers" for a lack of development. If we hypothetically say that there was zero development, that would be a matter of Bryke not writing it, then flipping the script. It's hard to blame Nick for them not writing something if Nick never weighed in on it. Now, I don't know how many restrictions were placed on them after Nick gave the green light, so I can't really say how anything after that point worked out, was or wasn't on Nick, but the build up (or perceived lack thereof) before asking, that's not on Nick.

      Not that I feel either party really has anything at all to apologize for in regards to Korra x Asami, short of possibly showing a kiss if the writers wanted to and Nick said "no".

      I was referring to book 4 like they were separate for it. Book 2 korra and asami were separate as well. Book 1 they were sort of together through equalist stuff. Even if what you mentioned is true, It's not shown to the audience rather not brought up or just told.

      Seriously that's what you thought of aang and katara.

      Book four, they were clearly shown with each other a number of times in the show and most notably, during that week of prep/downtime. We see them together during that and implied that that is how they more or less spent that time. Did they spend the whole season together? No. But do they need to to deepen a relationship?

      Soooooooooooooo we're not directly shown all of those things that I mentioned? Asami didn't drive the New Team Avatar around when they were fighting crime in book one? Asami wasn't on the airship with Korra when they broke out? Asami wasn't pushing her wheel chair? Asami wasn't on Air Temple Island during the week before Kuvira arrived in Republic City with her army?

      Yes, Aang and Katara was probably the biggest, weakest recurring plot device/characterization/writing, in the show. I do not like that Katara is objectified and used as a prize to be won/or a powerup for Aang. Being able to know from their first scene together that the two would end up together (because "they're supposed to") also didn't help.

      ...actually, I might. I'm not really so big a fan of "long-lost love stories where the heroes get together after having been separated for years with very little to no conversation between them in that time". Didn't like it with Roku, either, but there at least there was some chance because an indefinite amount of time passes between his return and his wedding (enough to get to know the bride). Zuko and Mai? From the hints I got, it seemed like they were practically betrothed already (and note that never does Mai actually fight Zuko in Book 2), and yeah, I still wasn't so keen on it.

      Cool, but Korra and Asami remained in contact for the most part. They knew each other throughout the first three books, between three and four, they wrote each other then lost contact (when Korra went AWOL) and she meets up with everyone again after a few months of no contact. Then they spend time together frequently throughout the conflict in book four, particularly when Korra is in Republic City.

      Maybe I'm just not good with that type of romance. Speaking from experience, you really need some kind of contact to go on, not just a couple of conversations here or there over the course of years. Korra and Asami was definitely one of those.

      Some say "absense makes the heart grow fonder". I am inclined to believe this to an extent. But, either way, Korra and Asami did remain pretty much in contact even during the time skip.

      ...has anybody noticed that nobody ever gets time off in LoK? No mini-vacations or anything?

      Like I mentioned, there was some downtime before Kuvira arrived in Republic City and they spent some of that on Air Temple Island together. The series also ends on the two going off to their vacation.

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    • I, for one, don't think they're bad together, but the fact that so many people hold it up as an example of a great romance arc, I'm sorry, you need to get your eyes checked. Insofar as it's the typical "designated couple" & "girl you get after saving the world" situation that's been repeated endlessly, he's absolutely right. And there were definitely a fair few forced moments, like their fight in the catacombs

      Well, at least i don't think they are a prime example of romance, but comparing it with Korra and Asami(or even comparing Mako and Korra with Korra and Asami), you see Aang jelous, trying to pick flowers in a volcano for her, worried about his love life instead of the fate of the world, he chose love her over mastering the AS and only decided to do so because she was in danger, he state clearly that he have feelings for her and we can clearly see that since the beginning of the show. The same can be said from Mako and Korra(although Mako wasn't in love with her since the first time they see it other), and even Mako and Asami.

      In all of those we clearly see at least one person show and state clearly that they have feelings for the other, while Korra and Asami did things toghether. This may be because Nick censored them, but i think if they showed a 12yo kid kissing another kid in ATLA they wouldn't mind the same for Korra and Asami, and if they started developing their relationship since the begining of Book 3 like people say they had more than enough opportunity to show  at least one of them falling in love with the other. Not doing things toghether or writing letters.

      Those may not be great examples of love stories, but we actually see the ones involved falling in love(or just looking at someone for the first time and going "ahhhh").

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    • Like I mentioned, there was some downtime before Kuvira arrived in Republic City and they spent some of that on Air Temple Island together. The series also ends on the two going off to their vacation.

      But Bolin was working for Kuvira for the past three years(if anyone can confirm this, i'm not really sure) and Mako had to be Wu's bodyguard. Asami probably worked in something too, and i don't think i need to mention Korra(but you may say what she did was some kind of vacation,though she didn't really enjoy it), so the only real vacation would be the one they take at the end. There's also a six months time skip from B1 and B2 i think. They could have done some vacation before Mako became a cop, although Asami would be kind of busy with her father's business.

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    • Good point, Saitama. Doing things together doesn't necessitate a romantic relationship. If it did, Lin's gotten far more loving than anybody let on. And note that, even though Asami was the only person Korra appears to have written to, she wrote to her once in two and a half years. Hardly ardent brush pals.

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    • It was only once? I got the impression they were talking to each other the whole time.

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    • Nope. Korra actually said "These past two and a half years" or some such thing, and was talking in a way that suggests she really only wrote once. I could be wrong, but nobody's said otherwise yet...

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    • Weltall8000 wrote: More what I mean is that it's not "more Nick's fault than the writers" for a lack of development. If we hypothetically say that there was zero development, that would be a matter of Bryke not writing it, then flipping the script. It's hard to blame Nick for them not writing something if Nick never weighed in on it. Now, I don't know how many restrictions were placed on them after Nick gave the green light, so I can't really say how anything after that point worked out, was or wasn't on Nick, but the build up (or perceived lack thereof) before asking, that's not on Nick.

      Not that I feel either party really has anything at all to apologize for in regards to Korra x Asami, short of possibly showing a kiss if the writers wanted to and Nick said "no".

      I was referring to book 4 like they were separate for it. Book 2 korra and asami were separate as well. Book 1 they were sort of together through equalist stuff. Even if what you mentioned is true, It's not shown to the audience rather not brought up or just told.

      Seriously that's what you thought of aang and katara.

      Book four, they were clearly shown with each other a number of times in the show and most notably, during that week of prep/downtime. We see them together during that and implied that that is how they more or less spent that time. Did they spend the whole season together? No. But do they need to to deepen a relationship?

      Soooooooooooooo we're not directly shown all of those things that I mentioned? Asami didn't drive the New Team Avatar around when they were fighting crime in book one? Asami wasn't on the airship with Korra when they broke out? Asami wasn't pushing her wheel chair? Asami wasn't on Air Temple Island during the week before Kuvira arrived in Republic City with her army?

      Yes, Aang and Katara was probably the biggest, weakest recurring plot device/characterization/writing, in the show. I do not like that Katara is objectified and used as a prize to be won/or a powerup for Aang. Being able to know from their first scene together that the two would end up together (because "they're supposed to") also didn't help.

      ...actually, I might. I'm not really so big a fan of "long-lost love stories where the heroes get together after having been separated for years with very little to no conversation between them in that time". Didn't like it with Roku, either, but there at least there was some chance because an indefinite amount of time passes between his return and his wedding (enough to get to know the bride). Zuko and Mai? From the hints I got, it seemed like they were practically betrothed already (and note that never does Mai actually fight Zuko in Book 2), and yeah, I still wasn't so keen on it.

      Cool, but Korra and Asami remained in contact for the most part. They knew each other throughout the first three books, between three and four, they wrote each other then lost contact (when Korra went AWOL) and she meets up with everyone again after a few months of no contact. Then they spend time together frequently throughout the conflict in book four, particularly when Korra is in Republic City.

      Maybe I'm just not good with that type of romance. Speaking from experience, you really need some kind of contact to go on, not just a couple of conversations here or there over the course of years. Korra and Asami was definitely one of those.

      Some say "absense makes the heart grow fonder". I am inclined to believe this to an extent. But, either way, Korra and Asami did remain pretty much in contact even during the time skip.

      ...has anybody noticed that nobody ever gets time off in LoK? No mini-vacations or anything?

      Like I mentioned, there was some downtime before Kuvira arrived in Republic City and they spent some of that on Air Temple Island together. The series also ends on the two going off to their vacation.

      Aang and katara was much more than that just rewatch the end of the desert

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    • What about the desert? Did I say that's all that they were? And again, individually, I thought they were overall good characters, just, this was the poorest part of the writing about their characters.

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    • This may be because Nick censored them, but i think if they showed a 12yo kid kissing another kid in ATLA they wouldn't mind the same for Korra and Asami,

      I don't know why people keep thinking this. Heterosexual romance in children's stories has not been considered controversial for a while.

      Those may not be great examples of love stories, but we actually see the ones involved falling in love(or just looking at someone for the first time and going "ahhhh").

      If they're "not great examples," I don't know what the point of emulating them is.

      Besides, most of that is only interpreted as "signs that they're in [romantic] love" because that's the accepted pattern with straight reltionships. If we pretend, for a second, that Aang was a girl, it would be quite easy to write off a lot of that "development" as platonic with similar excuses to what was made for Korrasami.

      There's no reason that friends can't give each other flowers if they like flowers, get jealous if they're not being paid attention, or choose their love over the fate of the world. Note that "love" is also used to refer to familial bonds in the show, ie the monks' love for Aang.

      Obviously, everyone agrees that's not how it's meant to be interpreted, but a lot of that's because there are very real double standards in the media.

      What about the desert? Did I say that's all that they were? And again, individually, I thought they were overall good characters, just, this was the poorest part of the writing about their characters.

      I might have to agree there. Personally, the only Avatar relationships I can think of that I liked less were the obviously flawed ones, like Makorra, Boleska, & Bolinger. But things like Sukka, Bopal, Zhurrick, Korrasami, even some that didn't quite work out like Bopal, I preferred.

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    • There's no reason that friends can't give each other flowers if they like flowers

      But in this case he is going to give her the flower especifically to get a romantic response. And earlier he tells her he likes her more than normal.

      get jealous if they're not being paid attention

      But getting jealous when an actor interpreting her is in love with an actor interpreting another boy in a play is different from simply not paying attention to him. I will also note that after feeling jealous he confess his love to her(this time she hears it).

      or choose their love over the fate of the world.

      Okay.

      Obviously, everyone agrees that's not how it's meant to be interpreted, but a lot of that's because there are very real double standards in the media.

      No, we agree because we are not taking one action out of context and interpreting it while we ignore other things that happened. We see Aang get happy after hearing Katara's future, he asks Sokka for love advice and applies said advice on Katara, he goes to get a flower in the top of a volcano because he saw it working, again he stated he liked her more than normal(and this was only Book 1, right in the begining) and even kissed her when he confessed his feeling to her in The Ember Island Players. You can brush some things as platonic or friendship love, but we still see that at least one of them was in love with the other, we see him trying to court her(in a funny way, but we do), and we see him confessing this love. How many of those we see in Korrasami? So it's not that people don't see because it's a lesbian couple, people don't see because it's not shown, or even said, until the last scene.

      If they're "not great examples," I don't know what the point of emulating them is.

      They don't need to, but if people need to make a list of every moment the two characters appear toghether, they are clearly doing something wrong.

      I might have to agree there. Personally, the only Avatar relationships I can think of that I liked less were the obviously flawed ones, like Makorra, Boleska, & Bolinger. But things like Sukka, Bopal, Zhurrick, Korrasami, even some that didn't quite work out like Bopal, I preferred.

      I'd say i liked Mako and Asami better. If they had sticked to it but Korra still being in love with Mako, but erase all the love triangle stuff(making it so that Mako never started liking her that way) and having Korra deal with this would be better in my opinion. Mako falling in love with her in the first place felt incredibly pushed and it looks like all they wanted was make a Zutara relationship. I don't know what you mean by Bopal not working out, it felt like a real relationship and aside from the begining, it wasn't forced.

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    • No, we agree because we are not taking one action out of context and interpreting it while we ignore other things that happened

      Precisely. Much of the argument against Korrasami involves isolating individual scenes & brushing them off with "alternate explanations." If you say to consider the scenes in context, it gets ignored.

      I'm not saying the argument I'm giving you is fair, that's the whole point, attempting to accurately recreate the anti-Korrasami argument in other contexts exposes just how unreasonable it is.

      To wit, "like you more than normal" would most likely be dismissed as meaning "less like a friend & more like a sister."

      You can brush some things as platonic or friendship love, but we still see that at least one of them was in love with the other,

      I'm on the transcript right now, so I can see exactly what he says. Some examples:

      Aang [Casually.] Yeah, yeah, I knew that already. But did it say anything about a girl?

      Aang So, Sokka, you know some stuff about ladies, right? Sokka [Pleased.] Some stuff? [Places an arm around Aang's shoulders.] You've come to the right place. What can I do you for?

      Aang Well, there's this girl.

      If you honestly believe that people wouldn't come up with excuses for why Aang was asking about ladies if he were a girl instead, I think you are sorely mistaken. Remember, people weren't even willing to accept that the final scene "meant anything" until it was spelled out by the writers, despite the very obvious parallels to the Kataang scene.

      In fact, I found 1 whole reference in this episode where romantic love, specifically, is verbally brought up to Aang, as opposed to a scene reliant on presumption of heterosexuality:

      Sokka Flowers are fine once you're married, but at this early stage, it's critical that you maintain maximum aloofness.

      And even then, it would likely be pointed out that Aang never verbally confirmed a desire to marry Katara. If you search the whole 60-episode series (which is totally a fair comparison to Books 3 & 4, less than half of that length), perhaps you can find some reference that would satisfy the ridiculous standard to which Korrasami is held.

      But the point remains, it would still be "out of nowhere" because you'd have to throw out everything less specific than that, which is the overwhelming majority of the development.

      Because that's exactly how the anti-Korrasami argument goes. Everything but the word of the writers & sometimes the very last scene gets dismissed to justify the statement that it "came out of nowhere." It's not that there's nothing to point out, it's the refusal to accept that those "alternate explanations" were the mistake, not the writing.

      Anything less, & you're just not subjecting it to the same level of scrutiny.

      They don't need to, but if people need to make a list of every moment the two characters appear toghether, they are clearly doing something wrong.

      No, that's because people insist on being given "proof" that there "was buildup" in excruciating detail. But they don't ask for, for instance, proof that Varrick & Zhu Li were interested in each other prior to Book 4.

      I don't feel any more need to elaborate, the double standard is very clear.

      I don't know what you mean by Bopal not working out,

      I meant Borra. It was a transpose error.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      What about the desert? Did I say that's all that they were? And again, individually, I thought they were overall good characters, just, this was the poorest part of the writing about their characters.

      You keep refering to Katara as a prize for Aang, however at the end of the Desert this so called prize is able to pull Aang out of The Avatar State, and keep him from doing somthing he will completly regret. It shows that katara means so much more to Aang then just his Girl friend, shes his family, his mother, the two depend on eachother, and their relationship isnt hardly meant to be just a romantic one.

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    • In narrative terms, Aang "earns" a relationship with her as part of saving the world.

      Ergo, prize.

      Saying, "well, she's not a prize because she does other things" is rather like saying she's not a supporting character because not everything she does is supporting Aang. It describes her position in the plot.

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    • Precisely. Much of the argument against Korrasami involves isolating individual scenes & brushing them off with "alternate explanations." If you say to consider the scenes in context, it gets ignored.

      Interesting point. But when you take Aang's action out of context it becomes a person giving flowers to another person, while in context it's a person giving flowers to someone in the hope he will capture her heart after seeing someone do it before.

      To wit, "like you more than normal" would most likely be dismissed as meaning "less like a friend & more like a sister."

      Not really. People may still be against the relationship, but saying it came out of nowhere when this whole episode was centered around Aang's love for Katara, or their kiss at the cave makes no sense. While with Korrasami there is no episode where they kiss or say they love each other, or Korra tries to conquer Asami's heart and vice versa. So while people would be wrong to say there was no build up between Aang and Katara, they are right when they say there wasn't clues for Korra and Asami relationship.

      If you honestly believe that people wouldn't come up with excuses for why Aang was asking about ladies if he were a girl instead, I think you are sorely mistaken.

      If you think they would, you are the mistaken one. There was more than enough proof for Aang loving Katara, while for Korrasami it all goes down to giving tea and spending time toghether, all of this with no attempt at flirting or anything like that.

      If you search the whole 60-episode series (which is totally a fair comparison to Books 3 & 4, less than half of that length), perhaps you can find some reference that would satisfy the ridiculous standard to which Korrasami is held.

      Like kissing on screen? Do you seriously think this is the standard Korrasami is subjected to?

      No, that's because people insist on being given "proof" that there "was buildup" in excruciating detail. But they don't ask for, for instance, proof that Varrick & Zhu Li were interested in each other prior to Book 4.

      And yet we still see Varrick declare his love and ask her to marry him. How is that compared to Korrasami again?

      And most of the discussions i saw there were people saying Korrasami came out of nowhere, and the others said it was obvious while presenting as proof, giving tea to each other and being at the same place at the same time. If this is out of context, give me the context that shows they are in love with each other(like i did in your Aang examples). Otherwise, just admit that it's not obvious and that when people say it came out of nowhere they have a reason to instead of just hating on homossexuality.

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    • The only thing I said was "obvious" was the ending scene's parallel to the "Kataang Kiss." The notion that if it's not obvious to everyone, then it didn't happen, that's a false dichotomy. In fact, I said a problem with Kataang is that it's too cliche.

      I also never said anyone was "hating on homosexuality," I said it's a demonstrable fact that there's a double standard in the fanbase, ie there aren't a dozen threads complaining that Varrick's proposal was "out of nowhere" & "ruined the ending." Being offended doesn't make this observation any less true.

      Any chance of you admitting that, given Korrasami happened & the writers said they were hinting at it, your claim that there were "no clues" is probably false, or is this a glass houses kinda thing?

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    • Pretty much what Neo Bahamut said. Hell, disecting your comment further illustrates my point.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote: Pretty much what Neo Bahamut said. Hell, disecting your comment further illustrates my point.

      Which thing I said & which comment? I'm confused.

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    • Was responding to TheBridge14. And in regards to your response to their bit on "You keep refering to Katara as a prize for Aang,"

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    • I think I'd better point out that I'm not really sure he'd "earned" her per se. Story-wise, it just felt like two old souls meeting at last. But then, I'll freely admit that just because something doesn't feel like something you don't want to deal with, doesn't mean it isn't so. I'm just not really sure how saving the world entitles one to "earn" a romantic relationship with your love interest. I'm equally unsure as to the details of the "prize", as is said, in that she's not exactly completely or even partially dedicated to maintaining the image of a girlfriend for the Avatar. And yes, I know, this argument has been discredited above, but I'm not really sure psychologically some folk can really see Katara as Aang's trophy for saving the world. Zuko and Mai, possibly. But not necessarily.

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    • I'm criticizing the notion of "earning" someone's love or receiving it as part of a package deal for beating the bad guy (not the same as two people growing together), in narratives as a trope(s).

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    • The only thing I said was "obvious" was the ending scene's parallel to the "Kataang Kiss." The notion that if it's not obvious to everyone, then it didn't happen, that's a false dichotomy. In fact, I said a problem with Kataang is that it's too cliche.

      But it is obvious to anyone(or at least most people), i mean, the people who are anti-Korrasami complain about it being a lesbian couple or that there was no buildup, not that it didn't happen. But i agree with you as i myself didn't see any romantic interpretation untill i got here and saw all those Korrasami threads. At that point i knew what was happening, but still didn't see any clue to it.

      I also never said anyone was "hating on homosexuality," I said it's a demonstrable fact that there's a double standard in the fanbase, ie there aren't a dozen threads complaining that Varrick's proposal was "out of nowhere" & "ruined the ending." Being offended doesn't make this observation any less true.

      Fair enough, it just seems that if you say something that is not praise about Korrasami, you are a homophobe. So okay, i adimit my mistake, and there really wasn't any topics about Zhurrick or how they made it only so they could have a wedding in the finale. But when i was talking about double standards i was comparing Aang and Katara to Korra and Asami and saying if you change Aang's sex you would still see him falling in love with Katara and, even if you're against it, there is just no way you can say it came out of nowhere.

      Any chance of you admitting that, given Korrasami happened & the writers said they were hinting at it, your claim that there were "no clues" is probably false, or is this a glass houses kinda thing?

      I don't know what a glass house is, but if their hints were putting them together and having one take care of the other, make tea, etc. they could as well be hinting Uncle Iroh and Zuko were in a romantic relationship, or were at least building up one. I'm not saying they weren't hinting that, but it's completely normal to think they weren't or that those hints were extremely weak when you compare it to any other ship(even Zhurrick, though it did came out of nowhere and both characters were out of character, we got them declaring their love and stuff). Not saying they could make them kiss, but at least show a conversation like "hey, i've been thinking and i like you a lot" or have Korra flirt with her like she did with Mako or Aang did with Katara, or Bolin did with every girl he met.

      I'm criticizing the notion of "earning" someone's love or receiving it as part of a package deal for beating the bad guy (not the same as two people growing together), in narratives as a trope(s).

      But they did grow together. Katara was in love with him before he beat the bad guy. We knew they were going to be together since day one, i'll give you that, but that doesn't mean their feelings only appeared after he beat Ozai. We even see Katara from showing interest in other boys to being jealous of Aang and other girls to corresponding to his kiss. It is cliche, but that doesn't make it bad(seriously, what is it with you people thinking cliches are bad things?), what makes it bad is reading them talking to each other in the comics and realising how weird it would be to see their VAs saying sweetheart, darling, sweety, etc.

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    • Katara basically did not have any visible interest in Aang with the exception of a few contrived scenes where they made it blatantly obvious they were jamming that subplot down our throats (like the Cave of the Two Lovers, like when Aang tried forcing the kiss on her later, told him she didn't know and needed space). Katara is pretty much just Aang's goal and when he beats the Fire Lord, he wins her.

      I won't deny that they grew closer together (as all of them did) over the course of their adventure, but we have this separation between the natural relationships that exists between everyone and then we have this overtly forced aspect of it in their "romance". If Korra and Asami walking into the portal hand in hand is hamfisted, we can't pretend that Aang and Katara isn't that, times a thousand. Aang and Katara's love arc was a fairly half hearted way to incorporate a plotline they wanted to go with, it lacked subtlety and it just didn't grow naturally, it needed to be forced to work in their story as they wrote it.

      What's wrong with cliche's? When they are overused and exist in place of good writing, particularly when this is a glaring weak spot in an otherwise well written work.

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    • Erm...strictly speaking, Weltall, we may disagree on that point about Aang and Katara. By now I'm willing to accept that there are two sides to the debate, and I think there are some valid points made here. But...half-hearted? Not so sure. Maybe it was just that the two seemed to be better written as characters, or maybe it's just my own interpretation, but you haven't tried half the scenes in there. Like the big speech in "The Avatar State". Or the next one in "The Serpent's Pass". And that's not counting the thousands of little scenes all over, and they don't have a romantic context. Again, maybe it's just a bias from the ways I've seen long-standing relationships approached in real life, but the old cliché of falling in love with your best friend is really quite important.

      And to some extent, that's what Aang and Katara were: best friends, comrades in arms, not fighting side by side necessarily but respecting the other's abilities, providing some kind of guidance for the other. If there are people who don't see that with Korra and Asami, honestly I can't blame them. NOT, by the way, because such scenes aren't there, but because for crying out loud everything was so rushed. I stand by my point (was it mine? Maybe) that the seasons of LoK were far too short to show any kind of meaningful development among the characters. There's going through hell, and then there's going through hell on a racecar balanced precariously on a jumbo jet. Neither are fun, and you really want to get out alive, but only one allows you time to really look at the scenery and contemplate life a little more. And I'm not saying Last Airbender could do that all the time, but when they did, they did it well.

      So...not growing naturally? Can we say for certain Korra and Asami's did? Or any of Korra's relationships? I don't believe so. Can we say that for Aang and Katara's? Possibly. But at least they had enough time to get some little moments to themselves before being sucked into the flood, and they were placed in calm enough periods that things didn't feel rushed. Bottom line, the two are not really comparable, because in this case I'd say less is definitely less.

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    • Wait, you didn't even accept that there was another side to this? >.>

      So, now we're counting small scenes without overt romantic context as being evidence for an eventual couple? Oh my gods, why haven't we been doing that all along!?

      If  there wasn't this huge double standard, and this was accepted when it happened with Korra and Asami, at the very least after it was discovered and people would have instead looked back all "oh yeah, I guess they did have those moments, huh", then we wouldnt be having this discussion for the thousandth time.

      If you want to defend that some people may not have seen it coming the first time around, fine, fair enough, some people miss nuances or even entire plotlines in shows and movies. However, when they complain about the show sucking overall or claim the writers outright lying to and trolling the viewers, because the viewers couldn't put this pairing together, then reject it when it is explicitly stated for those that missed it, and then being angry about it, that is unreasonable.

      Bringing up "The Avatar State". See my comment:

      "I do not like that Katara is objectified and used as a prize to be won/or a powerup for Aang."

      "Hey, to make Aang more powerful, let's put the love interest, I mean, 'Katara', in danger!" or later in the season when he needs to stop "loving" (read, being possessive over) Katara to gain power over the Avatar State.

      This is objectifying Katara.

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    • Your argument isn't a katara exclusive,Anyone aang cares about is going to be a powerup if their in danger that's major part of his personality he has a deep respect and loyalty for his family . Aang did the same thing and was way more angry/upset when Appa was missing. He also does the same thing to save Tophs life in the Rift.

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    • That doesn't even address the point that was made.

      But, on that, let's look at these three instances:

      So, here's Katara intentionally being used to power him up. It works.

      Next you bring up an instance in which Katara is used as a plot device for him to regain control of this power.

      Also, at the point that he's fully realized (as he is in the Rift) that isn't a big deal, he could casually enter it on a whim then.

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    • I had been hoping that Korra wil end up with someone else who IS a guy.

      Its ending is one of the baddest that I had ever heard in my life.

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    • So, now we're counting small scenes without overt romantic context as being evidence for an eventual couple? Oh my gods, why haven't we been doing that all along!?

      [...]

      However, when they complain about the show sucking overall or claim the writers outright lying to and trolling the viewers, because the viewers couldn't put this pairing together, then reject it when it is explicitly stated for those that missed it, and then being angry about it, that is unreasonable.

      This whole section is glorious.

      Aang did the same thing and was way more angry/upset when Appa was missing. He also does the same thing to save Tophs life in the Rift.

      You know, any character can be a subject or an object, depending on the scene in question. For example, in "The Avatar & the Fire Lord," Zuko & Aang serve little function but as objects to have the plot explained to, so that we can hear it. They might as well be diaries or recorders or something.

      Appa frequently acts as an object, in many episodes you hardly even notice him, because he's just getting them from Point A to Point B.

      Katara, to a lesser extent than Appa, frequently acts as some kind of goal or motivation.

      I had been hoping that Korra wil end up with someone else who IS a guy. Its ending is one of the baddest that I had ever heard in my life.

      Wonder where people get this crazy idea that a lot of the Korrasami hate comes from the fact that they're a same sex couple.

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    • ...I had decided not to get involved any further in this conversation, but...

      Bersarker wrote:
      I had been hoping that Korra wil end up with someone else who IS a guy.

      Its ending is one of the baddest that I had ever heard in my life.

      Let me get this straight: You're saying the ending of Book 4 is one of the worst you've seen in your life for no reason other than Asami's gender?

      That's...I don't even know how to politely describe that. No offense, but you're kind of proving the point I made earlier when I commented that so many people are hating on the ending out of some prejudice against the fact that it's a same-sex couple, and would not be complaining if it had been a guy instead. Which I find to be narrow-minded in the extreme.

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    • Please Mike and Bryan, making one book available Beifong family spin-off series on Nick.com and Nick app!

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    • I had decided not to get involved any further in this conversation

      Yeah, it's like that. You get tired of rehashing the same arguments, but the "debate" just won't go away.

      At this point, I'm hoping the comics will satiate some people by showing what a cute couple they make.

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    • Yeah, here's hoping.

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    • So... how many people in here to dislike the ending of the series? And how many who like?

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    • In my experience here and elsewhere, most people liked the ending of the series. I know I did.

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    • I didn't like LoK all that much, and the end managed to be worse than the rest of the show.

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    • SaitamaBro wrote:
      I didn't like LoK all that much, and the end managed to be worse than the rest of the show.

      Agree with you, I did.

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    • Maybe there's some way to make a poll?

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    • I maintain the protagonist relationships in avatar were terrible. Sokka and Bolin relationships were better than Korras. So was Varricks situation. All around more entertaining and not necessarily serious.The love triangle was nasueating and Korrasami was half ass no matter how you look at it. The fact that this is a nonstop disccussion for a year tells you how divided people are over it. The relationship is like the love triangle shits on the team chemistry they had going.

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    • Truthteller7373 wrote:
      I maintain the protagonist relationships in avatar were terrible. Sokka and Bolin relationships were better than Korras. So was Varricks situation. All around more entertaining and not necessarily serious.The love triangle was nasueating and Korrasami was half ass no matter how you look at it. The fact that this is a nonstop disccussion for a year tells you how divided people are over it. The relationship is like the love triangle shits on the team chemistry they had going.

      I also agree with this. They can just add more male characters that should be the perfect match for Korra

      instead of shipped her with Asami!

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    • Except...Korra's into girls. Namely Asami.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote: Except...Korra's into girls. Namely Asami.

      Technically, she's into both.

      But not at the same time.

      I would wager.

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    • If they wanna fix this problem, that is mean the creators must restart the Book 4 all over again

      in order to add more mal characters into the series to be new love interest of Korra. 

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    • Only Asami for Korra .Forever.

      Male characters no need.

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    • If the audience just pays attention to particular dialects of english, then it can pick up on Korra and Asami's romance. The romance is clearly pronounced in the script. Nick and Bryko are not at fault for people not knowing they were in a relationship.

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    • And remember... they go off on a small vacation together. Probably little more then a first date. It doesn't mean its true love forever and ever and she proposed. (Though it has a great chance of thriving, they have chemistry and respect for each other that life long love is built on.)  It just means that after a long time Korra wants to get to know Asami. It is absolutely contrasted with Korra acting like an idiot and Confessing true love to Mako in a locker room.  (She pulled a Ted Mosby) And it showed while she was a vital personality, she wasn't strong or aware of herself. She was just a dumb kid, who didn't really respect the object of her affection. She just grabbed what she wanted. It didn't matter to her that Mako didn't want it. Or Mako is a bit of a drip, or that Bolin was gaga over her and standing closeby.  She deserved to have everything she wanted and she acted like a bully. Not good girlfriend material

      Korra has changed. She has taken the time to know Asami and has carefully decided that she is going to ask her on a date.  This shows that she is not as impulsive and reckless anymore. Now She has the time to think about starting a relationship, and she's gentle and careful with her potential partner's feelings.

      It's going to be a slow burn this time.  I think they will have a long leisurely courtship and really enjoy themselves. The main thing is not that she got anyone in the end as a reward, its that she is happy with herself and can go to the next part of her life.

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    • Slaphappyjoy wrote:
      If the audience just pays attention to particular dialects of english, then it can pick up on Korra and Asami's romance. The romance is clearly pronounced in the script. Nick and Bryko are not at fault for people not knowing they were in a relationship.

      The dialect you contribute as proof is easily inferred as friendship. Something so subtle would not even go through most people minds except for shippers. Especially considering most of the romance in the show has been open and obvious. Not to mention trash but I digress the problem is the fact the romance in general in the series took away from the series. korra and asami getting together was unncessary. Pointless except as some type of publicity stunt. Which is what it came off as for alot of people. Like I said bit of a slap in the face Bolin was pushed off to the side as an afterthought. The korra asami thing could have waited for the comics.

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    • Yet romance isn't always open and obvious. In fact many classic stories involve romance that is hidden between characters. An essential part of romance is to allow, for example, two characters to have a mysterious relationship unknown to other characters in the story. The audience is not exempt from being told the mystery within romance, thus the audience is susceptible to not pick up on itself being told a mystery.

      When Korra tells Mako she had been writing back to Asami and not him, then this is a mystery to him. It may also be a mystery to some audiences. However those familiar with romance may have been clued.

      The TV audience typically has a sort of an "omniscient perspective" on the story, so often viewers think what's obvious must absolutely be true. But sometimes viewers have to rearrange the info to solve or even recognize the mystery.

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    • Truthteller7373 wrote:
      Slaphappyjoy wrote:
      If the audience just pays attention to particular dialects of english, then it can pick up on Korra and Asami's romance. The romance is clearly pronounced in the script. Nick and Bryko are not at fault for people not knowing they were in a relationship.
      The dialect you contribute as proof is easily inferred as friendship. Something so subtle would not even go through most people minds except for shippers. Especially considering most of the romance in the show has been open and obvious. Not to mention trash but I digress the problem is the fact the romance in general in the series took away from the series. korra and asami getting together was unncessary. Pointless except as some type of publicity stunt. Which is what it came off as for alot of people. Like I said bit of a slap in the face Bolin was pushed off to the side as an afterthought. The korra asami thing could have waited for the comics.

      Yeah, but Bolin was not the most popular character, and shuffling him off with some chick was sort of a stop gap. 

      The Problem is I think that the relationship between Korra and Asmai would have had to be so subtle and if it had seven seasons to unfold, it would have been amazing. And Considering that Nickelodeon was not only jerking them around...  they probably had no other choice to cram it in at the last second or just forget it.  And I think the fact that Nickelodeon would be forced to show it was sort of a prank for all the stuff that they had been through, canceled episodes, shrinking budget, refusing to pick a good time slot and not putting it online in a timely fashion.  They gave the audience a glimpse of what they wanted to do if they had the chance and was just controversial to get them attention, I don't hold it against them.

      And Bolin was only friends with Asami and Korra as well.  It would be distracted to bring him back as a love interest, when he had blossomed into an awesome if still dopey character.  His character arc is done.  Should she have gone off with Bolin, ust because he was the last man standing.

      I was really worried that they would give Asami to Bolin as a "Not being able to Date Bolin" Trophy. If they would have avoided that trap I would have been happy, but to give her agency, a good friend and still give her a love interest. It is super rare in cartoons.

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    • I could have sworn that Bo actually had quite the fan following (although I know people got exasperated with him in the acting arc in Book 2).

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    • he got on my nerves at first.  He grew on me when Asami became a part of the gang.  He is no Sokka, so its okay if they aren't pretending that he is the fast talking schemer.  But he does great as a heavy.  THe brawn with a heart of gold who gets easily confused.  

      You aren't going to replicate the same chemistry, but I think it took him a little while to develop his own personality (Other then Sokka Light)  

      I just am glad Bolin and Asami stayed good friends.  They were such cool besties.  If anything I think Bolin will end up her Zhuli Moon except not as l33t.  When Bolin was her right hand man in the series he really shined.

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    • Slaphappyjoy wrote:
      Yet romance isn't always open and obvious. In fact many classic stories involve romance that is hidden between characters. An essential part of romance is to allow, for example, two characters to have a mysterious relationship unknown to other characters in the story. The audience is not exempt from being told the mystery within romance, thus the audience is susceptible to not pick up on itself being told a mystery.

      When Korra tells Mako she had been writing back to Asami and not him, then this is a mystery to him. It may also be a mystery to some audiences. However those familiar with romance may have been clued.

      The TV audience typically has a sort of an "omniscient perspective" on the story, so often viewers think what's obvious must absolutely be true. But sometimes viewers have to rearrange the info to solve or even recognize the mystery.

      The romance in the series has always been so open. So expecting to infer scenes that are more associated with friendship than romance is a stretch. Korra and Asami were more portrayed at as friends. Those scenes at most were just that hints not full blown development of a relationship. It also doesnt help the interaction between the two was extremely limited prior to the fourth season. Asami as a character is pretty boring. Her only purpose in the series at the end of the day was a love interest. Season 3 being the only exception when the series had a better team vibe vs the cheesy love triangle vibe the other two seasons presented.

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    • Draqonelle wrote:
      Truthteller7373 wrote:
      Slaphappyjoy wrote:
      If the audience just pays attention to particular dialects of english, then it can pick up on Korra and Asami's romance. The romance is clearly pronounced in the script. Nick and Bryko are not at fault for people not knowing they were in a relationship.
      The dialect you contribute as proof is easily inferred as friendship. Something so subtle would not even go through most people minds except for shippers. Especially considering most of the romance in the show has been open and obvious. Not to mention trash but I digress the problem is the fact the romance in general in the series took away from the series. korra and asami getting together was unncessary. Pointless except as some type of publicity stunt. Which is what it came off as for alot of people. Like I said bit of a slap in the face Bolin was pushed off to the side as an afterthought. The korra asami thing could have waited for the comics.
      Yeah, but Bolin was not the most popular character, and shuffling him off with some chick was sort of a stop gap. 

      The Problem is I think that the relationship between Korra and Asmai would have had to be so subtle and if it had seven seasons to unfold, it would have been amazing. And Considering that Nickelodeon was not only jerking them around...  they probably had no other choice to cram it in at the last second or just forget it.  And I think the fact that Nickelodeon would be forced to show it was sort of a prank for all the stuff that they had been through, canceled episodes, shrinking budget, refusing to pick a good time slot and not putting it online in a timely fashion.  They gave the audience a glimpse of what they wanted to do if they had the chance and was just controversial to get them attention, I don't hold it against them.

      And Bolin was only friends with Asami and Korra as well.  It would be distracted to bring him back as a love interest, when he had blossomed into an awesome if still dopey character.  His character arc is done.  Should she have gone off with Bolin, ust because he was the last man standing.

      I was really worried that they would give Asami to Bolin as a "Not being able to Date Bolin" Trophy. If they would have avoided that trap I would have been happy, but to give her agency, a good friend and still give her a love interest. It is super rare in cartoons.

      Bolin was an extremely popular character. I don't see how you figure he wasn't. Korra was the one who was unpopular for awhile. Her personality in the beginning was pretty unlikable.  Which that trash love triangle didn't help. Bolin to me embodied the spirit of the original series more than any other character in the series. His adventure with Varrick carried the fourth season in my opinion.

      As for your second paragraph that is exactly what Korrasami feels like a spite move.The show was always on the bubble of cancellation. But to be honest dumb considering they have the option of comics to explore such things. Which is what a lot of series have done. Pretty sure I mentioned the famous Buffy example.

      Not really talking about Bolin as a love interest. I rather they ended the series as a team rather than continuing the love triangle. I am talking about how he was thrown to the side despite being a main character. He was the one who helped create the team and discovered Korra. He didn't even get a final conversation with Korra who left for the spirit world. 

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    • Truthteller7373 wrote:
      Draqonelle wrote:
      Truthteller7373 wrote:
      Slaphappyjoy wrote:
      If the audience just pays attention to particular dialects of english, then it can pick up on Korra and Asami's romance. The romance is clearly pronounced in the script. Nick and Bryko are not at fault for people not knowing they were in a relationship.
      The dialect you contribute as proof is easily inferred as friendship. Something so subtle would not even go through most people minds except for shippers. Especially considering most of the romance in the show has been open and obvious. Not to mention trash but I digress the problem is the fact the romance in general in the series took away from the series. korra and asami getting together was unncessary. Pointless except as some type of publicity stunt. Which is what it came off as for alot of people. Like I said bit of a slap in the face Bolin was pushed off to the side as an afterthought. The korra asami thing could have waited for the comics.
      Yeah, but Bolin was not the most popular character, and shuffling him off with some chick was sort of a stop gap. 

      The Problem is I think that the relationship between Korra and Asmai would have had to be so subtle and if it had seven seasons to unfold, it would have been amazing. And Considering that Nickelodeon was not only jerking them around...  they probably had no other choice to cram it in at the last second or just forget it.  And I think the fact that Nickelodeon would be forced to show it was sort of a prank for all the stuff that they had been through, canceled episodes, shrinking budget, refusing to pick a good time slot and not putting it online in a timely fashion.  They gave the audience a glimpse of what they wanted to do if they had the chance and was just controversial to get them attention, I don't hold it against them.

      And Bolin was only friends with Asami and Korra as well.  It would be distracted to bring him back as a love interest, when he had blossomed into an awesome if still dopey character.  His character arc is done.  Should she have gone off with Bolin, ust because he was the last man standing.

      I was really worried that they would give Asami to Bolin as a "Not being able to Date Bolin" Trophy. If they would have avoided that trap I would have been happy, but to give her agency, a good friend and still give her a love interest. It is super rare in cartoons.

      Bolin was an extremely popular character. I don't see how you figure he wasn't. Korra was the one who was unpopular for awhile. Her personality in the beginning was pretty unlikable.  Which that trash love triangle didn't help. Bolin to me embodied the spirit of the original series more than any other character in the series. His adventure with Varrick carried the fourth season in my opinion.

      As for your second paragraph that is exactly what Korrasami feels like a spite move.The show was always on the bubble of cancellation. But to be honest dumb considering they have the option of comics to explore such things. Which is what a lot of series have done. Pretty sure I mentioned the famous Buffy example.

      Not really talking about Bolin as a love interest. I rather they ended the series as a team rather than continuing the love triangle. I am talking about how he was thrown to the side despite being a main character. He was the one who helped create the team and discovered Korra. He didn't even get a final conversation with Korra who left for the spirit world. 

      My thoughts exactly.

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    • Truthteller7373 wrote:
      Slaphappyjoy wrote:
      Yet romance isn't always open and obvious. In fact many classic stories involve romance that is hidden between characters. An essential part of romance is to allow, for example, two characters to have a mysterious relationship unknown to other characters in the story. The audience is not exempt from being told the mystery within romance, thus the audience is susceptible to not pick up on itself being told a mystery.

      When Korra tells Mako she had been writing back to Asami and not him, then this is a mystery to him. It may also be a mystery to some audiences. However those familiar with romance may have been clued.

      The TV audience typically has a sort of an "omniscient perspective" on the story, so often viewers think what's obvious must absolutely be true. But sometimes viewers have to rearrange the info to solve or even recognize the mystery.

      The romance in the series has always been so open. So expecting to infer scenes that are more associated with friendship than romance is a stretch. Korra and Asami were more portrayed at as friends. Those scenes at most were just that hints not full blown development of a relationship. It also doesnt help the interaction between the two was extremely limited prior to the fourth season. Asami as a character is pretty boring. Her only purpose in the series at the end of the day was a love interest. Season 3 being the only exception when the series had a better team vibe vs the cheesy love triangle vibe the other two seasons presented.

      SOME of the romance in the series (like the PDA) is obvious, but not all of it is. Like I previously explain, a key element of romance is that it is NOT ALWAYS obvious and is SOMETIMES a mystery. Here is an extremely mature example. In Shakespeare, Juliet kills herself, upon finding her star-crossed lover Romeo dead. All of a sudden, committing suicide is a romantic gesture, even when it's not normally seen this way. Romance isn't always seen as hugging, kissing, and all other forms of PDA. Sometimes it's just not easily understood. However the material is still there to observe.

      I think Asami was just a love interest until the end of Book 1. Afterward, she kept purpose, because she had access to Future Industries and all its applications, hence the reason all those mecha suits were around.

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    • I just think it is pretty straightforward that this is only the very beginning of their new relationship.   So its not weird at all that they haven't kissed and are only seen as friends.  They are friends (maybe with underlying with sexual tension.) You don't make out with people and make lewd comments to a person BEFORE you've asked them out.  So I have no problem if there was no PDA in the series.  That this is a simple organic way their relationship would change. Now the day is saved she is going to ask her on a date. (Showing that she can learn her lesson)

      As for Asami.  I thought she was sort of like Sokka.  Sokka was Pretty, Sokka was Sexy, He had lots of fans. I liked her no nonsense attitude and never say die spirit. But also Bolin was like Sokka, he was all nonsense, silliness and charm. It was sort of like Sokka was split into two people. When we find out that Asami is not a perfect dream girl. She does have moments of doubt, but her friends help her through it. Especially Bolin. They are there to help her with her business, her dad and her love life.   Bolin was the jovial spirit of the Gaang and Asami was the brains.  Which is why it was good to see them together.  Asami genuinely needed Bolin to keep her spirits up.  She got something out of his good attitude. He became a better friend, more responsible and had more and more to offer and actually begin to help people, which is something he couldn't do before. She toughened him up without ruining his childlike innocence. That is why Bolin needed a while to grow on me, so his childish and carefree nature actually could be an asset to the team. and not just fodder for cheap gags. And Bolin's and Asami's little friendship was cute and fun.

      But damn Bolin was awesome in the final battle.  Dude was JACKED. After you drop a building on a robot, and save the Big Brother who had saved your life a million times, you don't need a soliloquy. He finally could pay Mako back for all the times Mako got him out of trouble. It is fitting that he became a lava bender, because even though he was always living in his big brother's shadow, and they always worked best together.  He was bending both rock and fire his whole life. Now he can be on equal footing with his big brother. Though a silly little goodbye would have been nice. He was a silly simple guy, so it wouldn't have needed to be major.

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    • Sokka has been compared to Varrick, Bolin, Asami, & Zaheer.

      All is One & One is Sokka.

      It is a little strange to say that Bolin didn't get enough attention in the finale. He fought alongside the most prestigious earthbenders of his time, helped invade the Colossus, saved Mako's life, & even officiated a wedding somehow.

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    • Why can't the creators just add more male characters in the first place?

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    • Slaphappyjoy wrote:
      Truthteller7373 wrote:
      Slaphappyjoy wrote:
      SOME of the romance in the series (like the PDA) is obvious, but not all of it is. Like I previously explain, a key element of romance is that it is NOT ALWAYS obvious and is SOMETIMES a mystery. Here is an extremely mature example. In Shakespeare, Juliet kills herself, upon finding her star-crossed lover Romeo dead. All of a sudden, committing suicide is a romantic gesture, even when it's not normally seen this way. Romance isn't always seen as hugging, kissing, and all other forms of PDA. Sometimes it's just not easily understood. However the material is still there to observe.

      I think Asami was just a love interest until the end of Book 1. Afterward, she kept purpose, because she had access to Future Industries and all its applications, hence the reason all those mecha suits were around.

      Lol the example you listed is a higher example of fictional work than avatar. The viewers and the audience shouldn't be required to dig too deeply or infer simple gestures. It is a show designed for a general audience. Which for the most part requires a different mood altogether from something like shakesphere lol.

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    • Draqonelle wrote:
      I just think it is pretty straightforward that this is only the very beginning of their new relationship.   So its not weird at all that they haven't kissed and are only seen as friends.  They are friends (maybe with underlying with sexual tension.) You don't make out with people and make lewd comments to a person BEFORE you've asked them out.  So I have no problem if there was no PDA in the series.  That this is a simple organic way their relationship would change. Now the day is saved she is going to ask her on a date. (Showing that she can learn her lesson)

      As for Asami.  I thought she was sort of like Sokka.  Sokka was Pretty, Sokka was Sexy, He had lots of fans. I liked her no nonsense attitude and never say die spirit. But also Bolin was like Sokka, he was all nonsense, silliness and charm. It was sort of like Sokka was split into two people. When we find out that Asami is not a perfect dream girl. She does have moments of doubt, but her friends help her through it. Especially Bolin. They are there to help her with her business, her dad and her love life.   Bolin was the jovial spirit of the Gaang and Asami was the brains.  Which is why it was good to see them together.  Asami genuinely needed Bolin to keep her spirits up.  She got something out of his good attitude. He became a better friend, more responsible and had more and more to offer and actually begin to help people, which is something he couldn't do before. She toughened him up without ruining his childlike innocence. That is why Bolin needed a while to grow on me, so his childish and carefree nature actually could be an asset to the team. and not just fodder for cheap gags. And Bolin's and Asami's little friendship was cute and fun.

      But damn Bolin was awesome in the final battle.  Dude was JACKED. After you drop a building on a robot, and save the Big Brother who had saved your life a million times, you don't need a soliloquy. He finally could pay Mako back for all the times Mako got him out of trouble. It is fitting that he became a lava bender, because even though he was always living in his big brother's shadow, and they always worked best together.  He was bending both rock and fire his whole life. Now he can be on equal footing with his big brother. Though a silly little goodbye would have been nice. He was a silly simple guy, so it wouldn't have needed to be major.

      Maybe that is a good point. If the creators didn't confirm it that is exactly what  most would have assumed  anyways a friendship. But I once again have to point out no romance in avatar was like that. They were point blank up front about it. Just look at all the relationships in the series and name one that had such a subtle introduction. I think the major issue will always be that the execution seems meh.

      Sokka was Sokka. Alot of them had some of his characteristics. But none really stood his equal. 

      Bolin and Asami didn't really have all that much interaction. Mainly because of how short the series seasons were.Plus  Bolin for the most part had his own side adventures every season cut off from most of the team. I thought most people noticed that fact.  He and Varrick for the most part stopped the series from taking itself too serious. 

      Don't get me wrong he had a decent role in the finale but I think it's kind of sighted that he wasn't blessed with a goodbye. I mean it's the final episode. Also like you said a simple even silly goodbye would be ok. He didn't even get words with his brother. Like I said the team was left hanging and it didnt feel like a finale.

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    • Draqonelle wrote:
      I just think it is pretty straightforward that this is only the very beginning of their new relationship.   So its not weird at all that they haven't kissed and are only seen as friends.  They are friends (maybe with underlying with sexual tension.) You don't make out with people and make lewd comments to a person BEFORE you've asked them out.  So I have no problem if there was no PDA in the series.  That this is a simple organic way their relationship would change. Now the day is saved she is going to ask her on a date. (Showing that she can learn her lesson)

      Agree with this, so much.

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    • DrachenRitter42 wrote:
      Draqonelle wrote:
      I just think it is pretty straightforward that this is only the very beginning of their new relationship.   So its not weird at all that they haven't kissed and are only seen as friends.  They are friends (maybe with underlying with sexual tension.) You don't make out with people and make lewd comments to a person BEFORE you've asked them out.  So I have no problem if there was no PDA in the series.  That this is a simple organic way their relationship would change. Now the day is saved she is going to ask her on a date. (Showing that she can learn her lesson)
      Agree with this, so much.

      If you possibly see the "underlying sexual tension", then you possibly see the underlying romance.

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    • Truthteller7373 wrote:
      Slaphappyjoy wrote:
      Truthteller7373 wrote:
      Slaphappyjoy wrote:
      SOME of the romance in the series (like the PDA) is obvious, but not all of it is. Like I previously explain, a key element of romance is that it is NOT ALWAYS obvious and is SOMETIMES a mystery. Here is an extremely mature example. In Shakespeare, Juliet kills herself, upon finding her star-crossed lover Romeo dead. All of a sudden, committing suicide is a romantic gesture, even when it's not normally seen this way. Romance isn't always seen as hugging, kissing, and all other forms of PDA. Sometimes it's just not easily understood. However the material is still there to observe.I think Asami was just a love interest until the end of Book 1. Afterward, she kept purpose, because she had access to Future Industries and all its applications, hence the reason all those mecha suits were around.
      Lol the example you listed is a higher example of fictional work than avatar. The viewers and the audience shouldn't be required to dig too deeply or infer simple gestures. It is a show designed for a general audience. Which for the most part requires a different mood altogether from something like shakesphere lol.

      Explain what higher example of fictional work means.

      Suicide is not simple gesture. It's an act many people have struggled to do. Yet it is connotated to be a romantic gesture through a social dynamic. You say what the audience shouldn't be required to do. However in order for an audience unlike Juliet to comprehend her suffering, the audience may need to perceive more like Juliet. For example, children may not fully comprehend why death by stabbing oneself in the gut (which is not at all a simple move) is one way to bring a soul to its mate in the afterlife. Most adults would understand this extreme act and yet Shakespeare's play is still shown to children.

      The mood an audience is in as it watches the show is irrelevant to the fact the material is still in the show to observe.

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    • Slaphappyjoy wrote:
      Truthteller7373 wrote:
      Slaphappyjoy wrote:
      Truthteller7373 wrote:
      Slaphappyjoy wrote:
      SOME of the romance in the series (like the PDA) is obvious, but not all of it is. Like I previously explain, a key element of romance is that it is NOT ALWAYS obvious and is SOMETIMES a mystery. Here is an extremely mature example. In Shakespeare, Juliet kills herself, upon finding her star-crossed lover Romeo dead. All of a sudden, committing suicide is a romantic gesture, even when it's not normally seen this way. Romance isn't always seen as hugging, kissing, and all other forms of PDA. Sometimes it's just not easily understood. However the material is still there to observe.I think Asami was just a love interest until the end of Book 1. Afterward, she kept purpose, because she had access to Future Industries and all its applications, hence the reason all those mecha suits were around.
      Lol the example you listed is a higher example of fictional work than avatar. The viewers and the audience shouldn't be required to dig too deeply or infer simple gestures. It is a show designed for a general audience. Which for the most part requires a different mood altogether from something like shakesphere lol.
      Explain what higher example of fictional work means.

      Suicide is not simple gesture. It's an act many people have struggled to do. Yet it is connotated to be a romantic gesture through a social dynamic. You say what the audience shouldn't be required to do. However in order for an audience unlike Juliet to comprehend her suffering, the audience may need to perceive more like Juliet. For example, children may not fully comprehend why death by stabbing oneself in the gut (which is not at all a simple move) is one way to bring a soul to its mate in the afterlife. Most adults would understand this extreme act and yet Shakespeare's play is still shown to children.

      The mood an audience is in as it watches the show is irrelevant to the fact the material is still in the show to observe.

      Works with more effort put into the relationships. LOK at the end of the day was just an action cartoon meant for a general audience.

      LOK main audience would for the most part be young audience . Hidden overtures and complex themes would defeat the purpose of telling a story to such an audience. You have to realize the average audience memeber wouldn't even care to look for such hints. That is why a more direct approach is needed in a cartoon. You do realize there is still probably a decent group of people who don't even know Korrasami is canon. So at the end of the day it's a bit of loss for the show trying the route it did. Pointless especially considering alot of the original audience moved on.

      It is completely relevant. Going in with the mindset of watching an action cartoon vs reading something like game of thrones for example requires totally different mindsets. Different expectations for both series and the judgement of both will be completely different for the most part. Professional critiques will tell you this fact.

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    • Are you saying that "a higher example of fictional work--works with more effort put into relationships"?

      Despite the intended audience, people of all ages can watch the show. If anyone watching the show is unfamiliar with non-obvious romance, then non-obvious romance may not be seen. That doesn't mean the non-obvious elements of the romance aren't in the show.

      Regardless of the mood a person is in, or whether the average audience member would care to look for any hint, the material is still in the show to be observed and is there despite the ability to pick up on it. To use another example, Alice in Wonderland is comtemporarily considered a children's story. Yet many adolescents, adults, and sometimes even children can have a different perspective on the content of the story. 

      When reviewing portrayed romance in ATLOK, keep in mind that even hindsight doesn't change what actually is in the past. Hindsight only pertains to how what's in the past is understood. So the observable material remains unchanged, yet how an audience observes the material can change. Thus if an audience comes to understand more about romance, then any romantic structure becomes more evident. Accordingly, if any audience member is unfamiliar with non-PDA girl-on-girl romance, then such an audience member may not perceive it.

      My first response in this thread, about paying attention to particular dialects of english, is to inform people romance isn't always comprehended in plain english nor is it always seen as obvious.

      I don't know how many people know about Korrasami.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Sokka has been compared to Varrick, Bolin, Asami, & Zaheer.

      All is One & One is Sokka.

      It is a little strange to say that Bolin didn't get enough attention in the finale. He fought alongside the most prestigious earthbenders of his time, helped invade the Colossus, saved Mako's life, & even officiated a wedding somehow.

      Wait, who the frick compared Sokka to Zaheer on any count except the obvious badass-normal one? There was an epic badass-normal fight in 158AG, and you will not convince me otherwise.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Sokka has been compared to Varrick, Bolin, Asami, & Zaheer.

      All is One & One is Sokka.

      It is a little strange to say that Bolin didn't get enough attention in the finale. He fought alongside the most prestigious earthbenders of his time, helped invade the Colossus, saved Mako's life, & even officiated a wedding somehow.

      Wait, who the frick compared Sokka to Zaheer on any count except the obvious badass-normal one? There was an epic badass-normal fight in 158AG, and you will not convince me otherwise.

      Also it's implied that Zaheer is the strategist of the group, & the one who keeps them aimed towards their objective, & the Red Lotus are "evil counterparts" to Team Avatar.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      Deist Zealot wrote:


      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Sokka has been compared to Varrick, Bolin, Asami, & Zaheer.

      All is One & One is Sokka.

      It is a little strange to say that Bolin didn't get enough attention in the finale. He fought alongside the most prestigious earthbenders of his time, helped invade the Colossus, saved Mako's life, & even officiated a wedding somehow.

      Wait, who the frick compared Sokka to Zaheer on any count except the obvious badass-normal one? There was an epic badass-normal fight in 158AG, and you will not convince me otherwise.
      Also it's implied that Zaheer is the strategist of the group, & the one who keeps them aimed towards their objective, & the Red Lotus are "evil counterparts" to Team Avatar.

      See, I'd always heard people calling Zaheer a shadow archetype of AangThe strategist parallel breaks down a bit on account of Zaheer actually being a rather inept one.

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    • I say he pulls double duty. He is formally both the nonbending & airbending member. Anywho, I don't see what makes him a poor strategist, but he at least portrays more strategic ability than the other Red Lotus members.

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    • First, he locked the sentries in a metal cell with a metalbender.  Then, he made a scene in Zaofu.  Then, he grossly underestimated an angry demigoddess.

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    • He had bad luck that Bolin happened to wake up & see him. He also very nearly killed Korra, which is doubly impressive, seeing that Amon, generally the strategist villain, didn't seem to have any plan for the Avatar State.

      I've got nothing on the cell, I forgot about that guy.

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    • Amon never had to deal with the Avatar State at all.  He went gunning for an Avatar who hadn't even picked up airbending yet.  It was Korra breaking that block that got him in the end.

      And sure, the Red Lotus nearly killed Korra.  But "nearly" is kind of the key word...and at the cost of the three remaining members of their implied inner circle, at that.  (Hence, why I think that the biggest threat posed by any Red Lotus holdouts as of Book 4 most likely involves tagging their damn flower on things.)  All-in-all, I was left with the distinct impression that they formulated their plan under the impression that P'Li would be around to one-shot Korra in the cave, and didn't recalculate much after the fact.

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    • The thing is, she could've gone Avatar State at any time for all he knew. Probably should've had a plan for it.

      Yeah, but getting anywhere close to killing someone in the Avatar State is a major achievement. Of the others we've seen do it, Unalaq technically undid the whole "Avatar" thing & Azula didn't let Aang finish Digivolving.

      I really doubt the presence of P'Li would've made much of a difference. It might've even made things worse if she got blown up right next to them.

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    • In hindsight Zaheer made some poor decisions, but before I saw him fail I thought some of his plans were fairly prepared. Infiltrating Air Temple Island was key, and it led to him accurately gauge the power of the airbenders when held for ransom.

      Amon was a moron. Everyone and their mom knows about the Avatar state. You'd think his own dad would've said something.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      The thing is, she could've gone Avatar State at any time for all he knew. Probably should've had a plan for it.

      Yeah, but getting anywhere close to killing someone in the Avatar State is a major achievement. Of the others we've seen do it, Unalaq technically undid the whole "Avatar" thing & Azula didn't let Aang finish Digivolving.

      I really doubt the presence of P'Li would've made much of a difference. It might've even made things worse if she got blown up right next to them.

      He did have a plan for it: depower her.  Sure, not much of one; even so, it probably doesn't really matter whether or not she can glow it up if she can't bend.  (And that's if we're presuming that Korra even could glow it up before we saw her do it in the Book 1 finale.)

      The Red Lotus thought those chains were going to hold Korra in the Avatar State for long enough that they could kill her.  Her breaking the chains, smacking Ming-Hua against a wall, and doing her damnedest to swat Zaheer like a fly (I will not note the pun, I will not note the pun...) were not risks that they calculated for; P'Li getting outmaneuvered into backblasting herself beforehand definitely wasn't.  (And not only would P'Li have been able to make quicker work of things, but she wouldn't have backblasted herself if she hadn't gotten outmaneuvered.)

      In summary: even if one argues that Amon was a strategist of dubious skill, it does not necessarily follow that Zaheer is a competent one even by comparison.  Hell, Zaheer outright admits to grossly underestimating Korra.

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    • He did have a plan for it: depower her. Sure, not much of one; even so, it probably doesn't really matter whether or not she can glow it up if she can't bend.

      Well, that's a pretty good point, but still, what if it had activated in response to the attempt to depower her? A lot of people thought it would.

      Yeah, I know it didn't, the point is there's no way that Amon could've known that.

      The Red Lotus thought those chains were going to hold Korra in the Avatar State for long enough that they could kill her. Her breaking the chains, smacking Ming-Hua against a wall, and doing her damnedest to swat Zaheer like a fly (I will not note the pun, I will not note the pun...) were not risks that they calculated for; P'Li getting outmaneuvered into backblasting herself beforehand definitely wasn't.

      Best laid plans, mice & men, & so on.

      (And not only would P'Li have been able to make quicker work of things, but she wouldn't have backblasted herself if she hadn't gotten outmaneuvered.)

      Except that once Korra goes Avatar State, she is likely to be able to overpower Combustionbending with her Breath of Fire, the chains still wouldn't hold her, & even if they did, breath of fire & air breath are both quite capable of producing concussive force to P'Li's head.

      In summary: even if one argues that Amon was a strategist of dubious skill, it does not necessarily follow that Zaheer is a competent one even by comparison. Hell, Zaheer outright admits to grossly underestimating Korra.

      For the record, Slaphappyjoy doesn't speak for me. I use Amon to show that basically NOBODY has an answer for the Avatar State. Zaheer was the 1st we've seen to come up with something that worked. No, it wasn't as effective as he'd hoped, but the overall goal still would've been achieved had Korra not had outside help. Still damn impressive.

      He's not "better" than Amon, but in that particular instance, he came up with a better plan. Though it's debatable whether or not Amon would've wanted to kill her.

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    • Wasn't intending to imply that Slaphappyjoy was in any way speaking for you.  Sorry if it came off that way.

      Still: the Red Lotus's entire apparent plan seemed to depend on Korra breaking before her chains did.  In fact, it seemed to depend on her not breaking those chains.

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    • I didn't know which of us you were referring to, so I specified that we are very much not in agreement on that point. I think Amon is basically one of, if not the smartest character in the franchise.

      Not sure where I'd rank Zaheer.

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    • I didn't speak for you, but I said what you should have said. Amon was so stupid. Being pompous led to only some of popularity, yet all of his downfall. It's the reason why some famous cult leaders have been called out and ridiculed. He had Korra and then let her go. Such a farce!

      He seemed to lead a successful underground revolt and be a cult leader with very loyal followers. Everything was going great for him. When it came down to his fight with Korra and Mako, he could've killed Mako or even slipped away and plotted a better way to disempower the Avatar -- for all he knew, Korra could've been triggered by anything to go into the Avatar state. Slipping away obviously would've been the more appropiate choice for the audience, but he chose to remain outnumbered when fighting Mako and Korra. Cult leaders always seek to remain in power in every situation. Instead, he wanted to show Korra and Mako, as if he needed an audience, that he was more powerful. He got himself exposed for not taking the obvious strategic advantage when he so clearly had it.

      I really liked Amon's imposition on RC. As Book 1 progressed, though, I started to believe he wasn't the one pulling the strings. There's only two reasons I couldn't come up with a seperate mastermind: he cut all his ties from his past, and he had a god-like ability. It's pretty hard to get leverage on someone like that. But the absence of evidence... There could've been a way.

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    • DrachenRitter42 wrote:
      Draqonelle wrote:
      I just think it is pretty straightforward that this is only the very beginning of their new relationship.   So its not weird at all that they haven't kissed and are only seen as friends.  They are friends (maybe with underlying with sexual tension.) You don't make out with people and make lewd comments to a person BEFORE you've asked them out.  So I have no problem if there was no PDA in the series.  That this is a simple organic way their relationship would change. Now the day is saved she is going to ask her on a date. (Showing that she can learn her lesson)
      Agree with this, so much.

      Korra needs to go slow.  She had some rage issues she needs to work out and almost beat up her boyfriend when they got in an argument. Asami is better at keeper her calm and chill then Mako, but that doesn't mean things will be easy unless they work hard.

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    • OK to everyone out there, things have changed for me. I was younger and less exsperienced then now and now I think it was a great ending. Opinions change people don't judge me.

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    • Valenthyne wrote:
      OK to everyone out there, things have changed for me. I was younger and less exsperienced then now and now I think it was a great ending. Opinions change people don't judge me.

      you realize that the last person who replied sent that over a year ago right?

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    • Though I guess that's good to know.

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    • Of course I knew that it's been over a year Kgsanime. I just wanted to make it clear my opinion changed. 

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    • Expanding Flare
      Expanding Flare removed this reply because:
      g
      03:45, July 16, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Oh, look!  Someone arguing that because they refuse to acknowledge the development for a pairing that was built up over the course of half of the series, it was objectively lacking in that regard!  Never seen that happen before...

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    • Being honest, and I don't think I've ever changed in this regard, the relationship wasn't what ended up being the worst part of the finale. It was the fact that, with literally everything having changed, it was the relationship they chose to focus on. There were so many other features of the Avatar World–the ecological damage to the Foggy Swamp, the wholesale destruction of Republic City, the complete turnover of the whole Earth Kingdom into a series of disunited states (which it doesn't appear to have been for thousands of years), the rather dysfunctional Beifong family dynamics to sort out, and the fact that there's now a third entrance to the Spirit World that humans seem adamant not to do anything about (I mean, there are plenty of spirits in Republic City, but how many humans have moved to the Spirit World, and why on earth isn't that more of a thing?)–that could have been focused on, or cleared up, a lot better than a couple of oversimplistic statements or completely ignoring the problem. It was, to put it bluntly, selfish. The world wasn't taking a breather, it was shunted onto another path. And the Avatar, who's supposed to take care of the whole thing, just gallivants off on her own with a companion literally to another dimension for an unspecified period of time, instead of staying to help but explicitly just taking a small break (which I don't have any problems with).

      Hey, if the forum's back online, I need not worry too much about putting in my two nickels' worth, eh?

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    • Expanding Flare
      Expanding Flare removed this reply because:
      j
      03:45, July 16, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Avatar Vyakara wrote:
      Being honest, and I don't think I've ever changed in this regard, the relationship wasn't what ended up being the worst part of the finale. It was the fact that, with literally everything having changed, it was the relationship they chose to focus on. There were so many other features of the Avatar World–the ecological damage to the Foggy Swamp, the wholesale destruction of Republic City, the complete turnover of the whole Earth Kingdom into a series of disunited states (which it doesn't appear to have been for thousands of years), the rather dysfunctional Beifong family dynamics to sort out, and the fact that there's now a third entrance to the Spirit World that humans seem adamant not to do anything about (I mean, there are plenty of spirits in Republic City, but how many humans have moved to the Spirit World, and why on earth isn't that more of a thing?)–that could have been focused on, or cleared up, a lot better than a couple of oversimplistic statements or completely ignoring the problem. It was, to put it bluntly, selfish. The world wasn't taking a breather, it was shunted onto another path. And the Avatar, who's supposed to take care of the whole thing, just gallivants off on her own with a companion literally to another dimension for an unspecified period of time, instead of staying to help but explicitly just taking a small break (which I don't have any problems with).

      Hey, if the forum's back online, I need not worry too much about putting in my two nickels' worth, eh?

      I can't agree with this enough. To be honest, most of the finale rubbed me the wrong way. There were some moments that were done quite well, like Hiroshi's death, but in the end I just wasn't satisfied cause far too many things were left unexplained. 

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    • Deist Zealot wrote: Oh, look!  Someone arguing that because they refuse to acknowledge the development for a pairing that was built up over the course of half of the series, it was objectively lacking in that regard!  Never seen that happen before...

      Inversely, we have someone arguing that because there's a perceived build-up of ship teases to a disjointed crescendo in a lesbian relationship, then it's objectively sufficient to make the case!

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    • Expanding Flare wrote:
      Deist Zealot wrote:
      Oh, look! Someone arguing that because they refuse to acknowledge the development for a pairing that was built up over the course of half of the series, it was objectively lacking in that regard! Never seen that happen before...
      I don't know if you're talking to me, but if you are, did you even read my post? I said that there was development, but it could have been made more apparent so the pairing wouldn't seem to come out of nowhere. I know they were taking risks here, but if it can't be made to feel natural and to actually have some sturdier hints, then I don't believe it should be canon at all.

      Yes, I did read your post. Acknowledging that it had development, then claiming that it "came out of nowhere," is a contradiction in terms.

      XXTaiWolfXx wrote:

      Inversely, we have someone arguing that because there's a perceived build-up of ship teases to a disjointed crescendo in a lesbian relationship, then it's objectively sufficient to make the case!

      And speaking of people who think that refusal to acknowledge something is an argument against it (not to mention: that virulent biphobia is just a harmless opinion, but mocking the perpetrator is just going too far; and that insinuating that your opponent is an aggressive strident harpy somehow lends weight to your argument): you again?  As in: didn't you flounce?

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    • Expanding Flare
      Expanding Flare removed this reply because:
      j
      03:46, July 16, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Inversely, we have someone arguing that because there's a perceived build-up of ship teases to a disjointed crescendo in a lesbian relationship, then it's objectively sufficient to make the case!

      Here's the harsh truth: This is not 2 equally valid sides presenting "cases," something definitively happened, & the people who were wrong just can't seem to get over it. So they feel we need to have endless arguments about how they weren't "really" wrong, the problem was with the writers for not meeting their particular vague & probably unattainable hang-ups. Gonna have to burst your bubble, we're not the crack shippers in this situation, you are. Even if you claim this isn't about a rival ship, it's still the same MO of trying to put those who acknowledge the canon without some sort of caveat on the defensive, insisting that it's just another "case" that needs to be given sufficient proof as defined by you, & if you decide the argument is not good enough, then for some reason you believe your claim stands on its own. It's just as inane when you do it as when the Zutarians do it, whether you see that or not.

      There were so many other features of the Avatar World–[...]–that could have been focused on, or cleared up

      Most of those don't actually make sense to end on, & the "Korrasami Scene" lasted about 2 minutes. It didn't prevent anything from getting the attention it deserved (implying it is not part of the category of things which deserve attention), if you remove it, there's still not nearly enough time to address any of that.

      Not that I see all of it as particularly needing more time. We already got a whole episode devoted to resolving the Beifongs, the swamp will either be fine or it won't, & we know the city is getting rebuilt, which will feature prominently in Turf Wars.

      Hey, if the forum's back online, I need not worry too much about putting in my two nickels' worth, eh?

      When was it ever offline?

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    • Expanding Flare wrote:
      Sigh. You're missing the point of my argument.

      I sincerely doubt that, but go off or whatever.

      The fricking ship did have development, okay? IT DID.

      And...thus perishes your entire premise.

      The problem is that the development was not treated as such. It was so obscure and treated as just interaction between two close friends made it seem like it was not there at all. In simpler terms, you need to be looking for it in order to see it.

      Hoo, boy. First off: this time, and this time only, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on that not being a deliberate invocation of the "like sisters!" card.

      Secondly: your claim that "you need to be looking at it in order to see it" falls flat in light of what actually happened when the show was airing. You see, even the people who desperately wanted it to happen didn't dare believe that it actually would; until the pairing actually happened, it was interpreted as a queerbait.  Claiming that people must have been "looking for" what would have been almost universally perceived as false hope is patently nonsensical.

      Finally: even if your claim that it was "treated as just interaction between two close friends" held any water to begin with? Not only is their being close friends beforehand not mutually exclusive with it taking a romantic turn, but it's also more than Korra had with Mako before they got together. (And as for your claim that there was just as much basis for her to get back with Mako: if you're—as you claim—not a bitter Makorra holdout, you should probably take a step back from your computer if you ever catch yourself sounding that much like one.)

      Therefore, there's a sense that it did come out of nowhere, even though it didn't.

      In other words: you know full well that your argument is unsupportable, but are still trying to "be right" anyway by arguing from personal incredulity.

      Before you repeat again that refusal to acknowledge something is not an argument against it, well, sorry to bust your bubble, but in this case, yeah, it kind of is.

      And sorry to bust yours, but the argument from personal incredulity is a logical fallacy even if it's your personal incredulity.

      I'm not saying that the relationship had no development. I'm saying that the show didn't handle the development well enough to convey that "hey, this is our new relationship for Korra, it's happening." The development was misleading and it just weakened the entire thing, in my opinion at least.

      Wait, what? Since when—and in what twisted parallel universe—is a friends-to-lovers romantic subplot "misleading," especially when you yourself admit that they were close friends beforehand? At this point, you're really just spitballing flimsy excuses to disparage the pairing and hoping that they'll stick.

      And yes, I know there's not really anything else that could have been done. This was taking quite the risk at the time and they Nickelodeon couldn't let the show just scream "hey Korra likes her female friend now" without having masses of foaming-at-the-mouth parents rioting against them.

      Considering that your entire premise adds up to "it's bad because they weren't explicit enough for your liking with it," paying lip service to knowing that they had their hands tied by censorship really doesn't help your case. At all.

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Here's the harsh truth: This is not 2 equally valid sides presenting "cases," something definitively happened, & the people who were wrong just can't seem to get over it. So they feel we need to have endless arguments about how they weren't "really" wrong, the problem was with the writers for not meeting their particular vague & probably unattainable hang-ups. Gonna have to burst your bubble, we're not the crack shippers in this situation, you are. Even if you claim this isn't about a rival ship, it's still the same MO of trying to put those who acknowledge the canon without some sort of caveat on the defensive, insisting that it's just another "case" that needs to be given sufficient proof as defined by you, & if you decide the argument is not good enough, then for some reason you believe your claim stands on its own. It's just as inane when you do it as when the Zutarians do it, whether you see that or not.

      Yeah, that...pretty much sums it up.  For the most part.  I mean, some of 'em do have worse motivations than sour grapes; but if I say more than that on the subject, there will be mass indignation.

      Now, I'd argue that the swamp is a spirit issue, and therefore potentially relevant.  But blaming it not being revisited again on the show on Korrasami allegedly eating the airtime (and, often enough, from the same people who claim that it "came out of nowhere," no less) is just...irrational.

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    • And sorry to bust yours, but the argument from personal incredulity is a logical fallacy even if it's your personal incredulity.

      Okay, now I'm mad that I didn't think to namedrop the argument from incredulity fallacy prior. That would have saved me soooooo much typing. But, since we're here, I find it to be an especially curious line of reasoning because all plot devices will inevitably not be foreseen by some, so while it may be true that "there was a sense that it came out of nowhere" for some people...so what? What makes this particular situation special such that being wrong about it is assigned so much weight? I don't see nearly as much consternation about say the existence of the Colossus. Despite the only foreshadowing to it of which I am aware being a throwaway line that the domes of Zaofu were removed by the Earth Empire.

      For the most part. I mean, some of 'em do have worse motivations than sour grapes; but if I say more than that on the subject, there will be mass indignation.

      I didn't think motivation was very important to the point I was making. I was just struck by the similarity. Whether the argument is "It wasn't developed, just slapped together at the last moment" or "Okay, there was development, but it was bad!" both are common among the Zutara crowd.

      Now, I'd argue that the swamp is a spirit issue, and therefore potentially relevant.

      I'll agree to that, but in its current form, I think it's little more than a footnote. There is as of yet no indication that there was irreparable damage, or that it's affecting something else. We will only know if it is if it's addressed in the future, which would make it not being handled in the Book 4 finale rather a moot point.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote: Okay, now I'm mad that I didn't think to namedrop the argument from incredulity fallacy prior. That would have saved me soooooo much typing. But, since we're here, I find it to be an especially curious line of reasoning because all plot devices will inevitably not be foreseen by some, so while it may be true that "there was a sense that it came out of nowhere" for some people...so what? What makes this particular situation special such that being wrong about it is assigned so much weight? I don't see nearly as much consternation about say the existence of the Colossus. Despite the only foreshadowing to it of which I am aware being a throwaway line that the domes of Zaofu were removed by the Earth Empire.

      That actually kind of brings me to my next point here...

      I didn't think motivation was very important to the point I was making. I was just struck by the similarity. Whether the argument is "It wasn't developed, just slapped together at the last moment" or "Okay, there was development, but it was bad!" both are common among the Zutara crowd.

      Meant that when the Zutara crowd is playing those cards, it's pretty much invariably just pure unadulterated frustrated 'shipper bitterness. From the anti-Korrasami crowd, you can't rule out there being something nastier underlying it. That's why I thought that people's motives for desperately attempting to discredit Korrasami were at least marginally relevant to the topic as a whole.

      I'll agree to that, but in its current form, I think it's little more than a footnote. There is as of yet no indication that there was irreparable damage, or that it's affecting something else. We will only know if it is if it's addressed in the future, which would make it not being handled in the Book 4 finale rather a moot point.

      Just in the sense of "on a scale of 1 to Lunastar, how much of a snit are the spirits still in over Miz No-Way-of-Determining-Their-Loyalty hacking at the spirit vines in the swamp at all; and how much damage control is Korra going to end up having to do in the near future?" 

      I will, however, allow that there might have been enough of a time gap in between the final battle and the wedding scene to allow for Korra to have already done some damage control.  Although, quite frankly, I'd rather have seen that than the (ugh) Zhurrick wedding...but that's neither here nor there.

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    • Listen, either way you were going to see someone do the thing.

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    • And speaking of people who think that refusal to acknowledge something is an argument against it (not to mention: that virulent biphobia is just a harmless opinion, but mocking the perpetrator is just going to far; and that insinuating that your opponent is an aggressive strident harpy somehow lends weight to your argument): you again?  As in: didn't you flounce?

      Are you resurrecting talking points from over a year ago? If you are, you must have a damn good memory to recall any of that. But no, I didn't flounce. Sorry to disappoint you.

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    • XXTaiWolfXx wrote:

      And speaking of people who think that refusal to acknowledge something is an argument against it (not to mention: that virulent biphobia is just a harmless opinion, but mocking the perpetrator is just going to far; and that insinuating that your opponent is an aggressive strident harpy somehow lends weight to your argument): you again?  As in: didn't you flounce?

      Are you resurrecting talking points from over a year ago? If you are, you must have a damn good memory to recall any of that. But no, I didn't flounce. Sorry to disappoint you.

      Yes, I've got a damn good memory:  For one, I also remember you classifying any two or more people disagreeing with you (but not, oddly enough, any four or more people agreeing with you) as a "hivemind," something short of a year ago. 

      And—your denial aside—I also remember you indeed flouncing (or at least slinking) out of the discussion after having been called repeatedly (and not just by me, either) on your faulty logic and bad-faith arguments.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:

      XXTaiWolfXx wrote:

      And speaking of people who think that refusal to acknowledge something is an argument against it (not to mention: that virulent biphobia is just a harmless opinion, but mocking the perpetrator is just going to far; and that insinuating that your opponent is an aggressive strident harpy somehow lends weight to your argument): you again?  As in: didn't you flounce?

      Are you resurrecting talking points from over a year ago? If you are, you must have a damn good memory to recall any of that. But no, I didn't flounce. Sorry to disappoint you.

      Yes, I've got a damn good memory:  For one, I also remember you classifying any two or more people disagreeing with you (but not, oddly enough, any four or more people agreeing with you) as a "hivemind," something short of a year ago. 

      And—your denial aside—I also remember you indeed flouncing (or at least slinking) out of the discussion after having been called repeatedly (and not just by me, either) on your faulty logic and bad-faith arguments.

      The real zinger here is that you denounce my defense as denial while simultaneously maintaining that "making a not insignificant percentage of the fanbase feel queerbaited" is sufficient to back your zealous case - yes, case - that Korrasami was as tangible since seasons 2-3 as the Spirit World was real. As if a popular headcanon is tenable evidence for a strongly colored reading of a scenario, expressly Asami looking after an enfeebled Korra. Maybe this time you'll actually address this point instead of deflecting to my "denial" or my "flouncing".

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    • Neo Bahamut
      Neo Bahamut removed this reply because:
      On second thought, I don't want to be dragged down this road.
      07:02, July 17, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • You know what? I personally don't want to get dragged back to Square 1 yet again, as has been happening to this subject for 2 1/2 years now. I'm more interested in the other points raised about the finale, or hearing what changed Valenthyne's mind.

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    • Had they had more money they would have stretched the tv series further and might have had a better ending. At least there's still the comics. Also Korra and Asami are bisexuals not lesbians as they both showed to have preferences to both sexes.

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    • XXTaiWolfXx wrote:

      The real zinger here is that you denounce my defense as

      denial while simultaneously maintaining that "making a not insignificant percentage of the fanbase feel queerbaited" is sufficient to back your zealous case - yes, case - that Korrasami was as tangible since seasons 2-3 as the Spirit World was real. As if a popular headcanon is tenable evidence for a strongly colored reading of a scenario, expressly Asami looking after an enfeebled Korra. Maybe this time you'll actually address this point instead of deflecting to my "denial" or my "flouncing".

      Implying that you even have a point at all, as opposed to (and, considering your antics concerning virulent biphobes vs. mockery thereof in another thread, this is a charitable interpretation of your motives) just being sore about Makorra sinking like an anchor.  Or that calling canon (namely, that Korrasami was, in fact, being teased at since Book 3) a "case" somehow discredits it (especially when you yourself have no case at all).

      Or, for that matter: that you've got any business calling anyone "zealous" when you're still harping on—a year after having gotten wrecked in that other thread, and two and a half years after the finale aired—about how your indignation over being verifiably wrong somehow means that you're somehow actually right (and, considering your track record to that end, will doubtless go on to flood this thread with still more of the same).

      In other words: I have addressed the bitter Makorra holdout fanwank you call an argument, several times over, far beyond the extent that it rightfully merits.  And "the real zinger" is that you're calling said fanwank "defense" when your position is indefensible.

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      You know what? I personally don't want to get dragged back to Square 1 yet again, as has been happening to this subject for 2 1/2 years now. I'm more interested in the other points raised about the finale, or hearing what changed Valenthyne's mind.

      Same here, to be absolutely honest. But yet, certain people continue to think that their snits over being wrong are valid arguments.

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    • Same here, to be absolutely honest. But yet, certain people continue to think that their snits over being wrong are valid arguments.

      I initially posted something commenting about how thin the pretense of "debate" is, since my response went totally ignored, but then I decided I was just enabling.

      Angico211 wrote: Had they had more money they would have stretched the tv series further and might have had a better ending. At least there's still the comics. Also Korra and Asami are bisexuals not lesbians as they both showed to have preferences to both sexes.

      I had a problem with the inefficiency of Book 4. Things like the Colossus took more time than I think they deserved, the whole Battle of Zaofu feels kind of pointless outside of showing Korra is still out of shape, which could have been moved somewhere else, while the issue of human-spirit relations is still being skirted around despite ostensibly being the running theme for Books 2-4. If we dropped 3 episodes (pretending the budget cuts weren't a problem, so we can get rid of Remembrances), & had Zaofu taken over a much shorter timeframe, we could have expanded Beyond the Wilds to address the Spirit World more generally.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I initially posted something commenting about how thin the pretense of "debate" is, since my response went totally ignored, but then I decided I was just enabling.

      I think you covered it well enough when you said this:

      On 15 July 2017, Neo Bahamut wrote
      This is not 2 equally valid sides presenting "cases," something definitively happened, & the people who were wrong just can't seem to get over it. So they feel we need to have endless arguments about how they weren't "really" wrong, the problem was with the writers for not meeting their particular vague & probably unattainable hang-ups.
      No matter what their precise motives (which are far more often ugly than the vast majority of them would like to admit) are, it's not coming from a rational place; it's fanwank, plain and simple.
      I had a problem with the inefficiency of Book 4. Things like the Colossus took more time than I think they deserved, the whole Battle of Zaofu feels kind of pointless outside of showing Korra is still out of shape, which could have been moved somewhere else, while the issue of human-spirit relations is still being skirted around despite ostensibly being the running theme for Books 2-4. If we dropped 3 episodes (pretending the budget cuts weren't a problem, so we can get rid of Remembrances), & had Zaofu taken over a much shorter timeframe, we could have expanded Beyond the Wilds to address the Spirit World more generally.

      I'll agree that Book 4 was kind of inefficient, although I might have been spoiled by Book 3. (Not that I don't have my criticisms of Book 3; even so).  Still: the all-too-common tactic of trying to frame "Korra and Asami confirmed bi and in love with each other" as a problem (much less the source of any problems) with the book is (at best) patently ridiculous.

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    • I am nothing if not belaboring of the point.

      About my only problem with the "Korrasami Arc" is Nickelodeon undoubtedly censoring a kiss which was supposed to take place at the end. While I'm sure they censored more, I don't think more was strictly needed. It was one of my favorite Avatarverse romances precisely because it simply happened, it wasn't some drawn out melodrama like Makorra, Maiko, or to an extent Kataang. I feel this is also why I initially preferred Masami.

      As I've often said, Book 4 was very strong in its initial episodes & the last few minutes, but other than that, I didn't care for it. There were spots in the latter half that I really enjoyed, like Operation Beifong, but for the most part I found it kind of boring, & empty.

      And the Colossus is such a dumb idea.

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    • Implying that you even have a point at all, as opposed to (and, considering your antics concerning virulent biphobes vs. mockery thereof in another thread, this is a charitable interpretation of your motives) just being sore about Makorra sinking like an anchor.  Or that calling canon (namely, that Korrasami was, in fact, being teased at since Book 3) a "case" somehow discredits it (especially when you yourself have no case at all).

      Or, for that matter: that you've got any business calling anyone "zealous" when you're still harping on—a year after having gotten wrecked in that other thread, and two and a half years after the finale aired—about how your indignation over being verifiably wrong somehow means that you're somehow actually right (and, considering your track record to that end, will doubtless go on to flood this thread with still more of the same).

      In other words: I have addressed the bitter Makorra holdout fanwank you call an argument, several times over, far beyond the extent that it rightfully merits.  And "the real zinger" is that you're calling said fanwank "defense" when your position is indefensible.

      Makorra has no pertinence to the folly that is Korrasami. I don't see why you bring it up at all. And my case is that Korrasami feels so contrived: it's a lame attempt to fit in a LGBT feature into the Avatar universe just under the wire. It was too tentative, and thereby too equivocal, to pass for good writing.

      You're right, zealous is too temperate of a word to describe your petulant stance that anyone who dares question the sublime likeness of perfection that is Korrasami is just a holdout. As if Makorra was already a point of discussion in this thread before you or Neo brought it up. Judging from what I've seen of your posts lately, this seems to be a trend too. Your enthusiasm for Makorra surpasses that of anything I've seen in this forum. Your blundering passions are distressing to watch.

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    • XXTaiWolfXx wrote: Makorra has no pertinence to the folly that is Korrasami. I don't see why you bring it up at all. And my case is that Korrasami feels so contrived: it's a lame attempt to fit in a LGBT feature into the Avatar universe just under the wire. It was too tentative, and thereby too equivocal, to pass for good writing.

      Translation: "It wasn't shoved down my throat like a het pairing; therefore, it's bad!"

      And you made it bleedingly obvious in at least one of the other threads that you previously spammed up that you are, in fact, a Makorra holdout.  When you weren't playing victim by proxy on behalf of the resident biphobes, that is.  Pull the other one.

      You're right, zealous is too temperate of a word to describe your petulant stance that anyone who dares question the sublime likeness of perfection that is Korrasami is just a holdout. As if Makorra was already a point of discussion in this thread before you or Neo brought it up. Judging from what I've seen of your posts lately, this seems to be a trend too. Your enthusiasm for Makorra surpasses that of anything I've seen in this forum. Your blundering passions are distressing to watch.

      Translation:  "REEEEEEEEEEEEE!" 

      Thus drown any last vestiges of credibility that you might have had, in an incoherent flood of logical fallacies and good old-fashioned schoolyard insults.  Additionally: it would appear that either bad-faith arguments are actually the top of your game, or I've struck a nerve.

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    • Translation: "It wasn't shoved down my throat like a het pairing; therefore, it's bad!"

      I must have made a tenable defense in your eyes, or you wouldn't parry it with such a jaundiced straw man. What, is it too difficult a pill to swallow that Korrasami isn't rebuked on behalf of some other pairing? That maybe, just maybe, it was a poorly executed narrative arc?

      And you made it bleedingly obvious in at least one of the other threads that you previously spammed up that you are, in fact, a Makorra holdout.  When you weren't playing victim by proxy on behalf of the resident biphobes, that is.  Pull the other one.

      I've also made it bleeding obvious in this thread that my criticism of Korrasami has nothing to do with Makorra. You have a lot of nerve to condemn me for doing in one thread what you have done indiscriminately in various other threads: that is, invoke and rail against one LoK pairing on behalf of another. It's as if Korrasami apologetics are hinged on incriminations of Makorra.

      Translation:  "REEEEEEEEEEEEE!" 

      Thus drown any last vestiges of credibility that you might have had, in an incoherent flood of logical fallacies and good old-fashioned schoolyard insults.  Additionally: it would appear that either bad-faith arguments are actually the top of your game, or I've struck a nerve.

      You neglect to denounce anything actually said in that post, so I take it you acquiesce to the small trivia that Makorra has lately been your talking point? Also, what fallacies are you citing?

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    • I sense a safari on the horizon. 

      XXTaiWolfXx wrote:
      I must have made a tenable defense in your eyes, or you wouldn't parry it with such a jaundiced straw man.
      Yeah, yeah; whatever makes you feel better about your argument adding up to "it wasn't shoved down my throat like a het pairing; therefore, it's bad!" Also, you don't get to cry "strawman" after accusing me of saying that Korrasami was being teased in Book 2. (I said half of the series, not three-quarters.)
      What, is it too difficult a pill to swallow that Korrasami isn't rebuked on behalf of some other pairing? That maybe, just maybe, it was a poorly executed narrative arc?
      What, is it too difficult a pill to swallow that nine out of ten people trashing on Korrasami really do seem to turn out to be motivated by irrational bias of some sort, and do hold it to an absurdly higher standard than any other pairing? Or that maybe, just maybe, you're not making much of a case for being the tenth when you sling veiled or overt insults in lieu of an actual argument?

      Also: you have stated that you don't give a damn about or even acknowledge the existence of principles of basic storytelling. Therefore, the worth of your word on the quality of a story arc is in the negatives.

      And italics are for emphasis, not for just throwing in at random.

      I've also made it bleeding obvious in this thread that my criticism of Korrasami has nothing to do with Makorra.

      Again: your "criticism," no matter how many times you spuriously cry "strawman" on that assessment, adds up to "it wasn't shoved down my throat like a het pairing; therefore, it's bad!"  Even if you weren't a Makorra holdout who champions blatant biphobes against the barbaric cruelty of being mocked for their nonsense, that would be flimsy.

      You have a lot of nerve to condemn me for doing in one thread what you have done indiscriminately in various other threads: that is, invoke and rail against one LoK pairing on behalf of another. It's as if Korrasami apologetics are hinged on incriminations of Makorra.

      First of all: "indiscriminately," my ass. 

      Secondly: bisonshit, and you know it; I have never "railed against" Makorra unless given at least some degree of provocation, much less to the degree that you have railed against Korrasami.  (Although I'm sure you're going to pull up some old post of mine and spin it as such.)

      And finally: nice tu quoque you've got there.  Shame if someone called it by its right name.

      You neglect to denounce anything actually said in that post, so I take it you acquiesce to the small trivia that Makorra has lately been your talking point? Also, what fallacies are you citing?

      Translation: "I demand a formal rebuttal of my incoherent insult salad as if it were actually an argument; otherwise, I win!"

      As for the fallacies: begging the question, the aforementioned tu quoque, the standard garden-variety ad hominem, and—however coincidentally—at least one strawman.  Looks like bad-faith arguments really are the top of your game.

      And, really: it took you two days to come up with that?

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:

      Yeah, yeah; whatever makes you feel better about your argument adding up to "it wasn't shoved down my throat like a het pairing; therefore, it's bad!" Also, you don't get to cry "strawman" after accusing me of saying that Korrasami was being teased in Book 2. (I said half of the series, not three-quarters.)

      That's some great cherry picking. Never mind my last three posts, which all divulge my position on Korrasami. But hey, at least you acknowledge your strawman. (By the way, the hyphen in that previous post denotes an estimation.)

      You have stated that you don't give a damn about or even acknowledge the existence of principles of basic storytelling. Therefore, the worth of your word on the quality of a story arc is in the negatives.

      So in the same post you invoke the appeal to hypocrisy fallacy, you appeal to hypocrisy? This is some real Inception fuckery.

      Again: your "criticism," no matter how many times you spuriously cry "strawman" on that assessment, adds up to "it wasn't shoved down my throat like a het pairing; therefore, it's bad!"  Even if you weren't a Makorra holdout who champions blatant biphobes against the barbaric cruelty of being mocked for their nonsense, that would be flimsy.

      If you're done pardoning your strawman, please tell me why my criticism is "flimsy". It would really illuminate the mental gymnastics you perform to prune my criticism down to flagrant biphobia.

      First of all: "indiscriminately," my ass. 

      Secondly: bisonshit, and you know it; I have never "railed against" Makorra unless given at least some degree of provocation, much less to the degree that you have railed against Korrasami.  (Although I'm sure you're going to pull up some old post of mine and spin it as such.)

      Here's a good one, and here's another one. I don't see any provocation in those threads, but I do see from your post that you have some very acute psychic abilities. They're a bit distorted, though, as no spinning was necessary. All you need to do is read your first posts in those two threads.

      And finally: nice tu quoque you've got there.  Shame if someone called it by its right name.

      It'd be a greater shame if you pulled the same bullshit that you indict me for.

      Translation: "I demand a formal rebuttal of my incoherent insult salad as if it were actually an argument; otherwise, I win!"

      As long as you acknowledge that citing Makorra has been your compulsion.

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    • I sense a safari on the horizon.

      Speaking of, I'm now trying to track down & archive the whole safari canon. So far, I'm missing at least the first, & I don't have anything after April of 2016.

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    • XXTaiWolfXx wrote:

      That's some great cherry picking. Never mind my last three posts, which all divulge my position on Korrasami.

      Right...I "cherry-picked" anything even loosely concerning said position (such as it is) out of the morass of personal attacks. Last I checked, the latter was relevant to nothing except your conduct.

      And I'd mention, again, that text formatting is for emphasis; but the fact that you kept at it after the first time suggests that you're just doing it to be deliberately annoying.

      But hey, at least you acknowledge your strawman. (By the way, the hyphen in that previous post denotes an estimation.)

      And that was both begging the question and yet another strawman on your part...but, at this point, who's counting?

      As for your transparent attempt to backpedal: no one cares about your hyphen.

      So in the same post you invoke the appeal to hypocrisy fallacy, you appeal to hypocrisy? This is some real Inception fuckery..

      Complete non sequitur and pretty damn ironic in the bargain, but go off or whatever.

      If you're done pardoning your strawman, please tell me why my criticism is "flimsy". It would really illuminate the mental gymnastics you perform to prune my criticism down to flagrant biphobia.

      I've already been over how your "criticism," to use the word loosely (namely: that the pairing is bad because it "came out of nowhere," and that none of the canon evidence to the contrary counts because you read it all as platonic) is flimsy in two separate threads (not counting this one) already.

      Your response in the first two threads was to present your denial as if it were a valid counter-argument; in this one, it's been to spuriously cry "strawman."  Between that, and that time when you demanded over and over that I explain to you how bigotry on the Internet is still bigotry, and therefore by definition not innocent or harmless (and then, when I did just that, insulted my explanation)?  You don't actually want an answer; you just want to play the "just-asking-questions" game again (and possibly make a few more insult salads).

      And speaking of straw?  I never called you a biphobe; I called you on having defended someone who called Korrasami "sexual immorality," which is something that you verifiably did.  Y'know...along with using personal attacks in lieu of arguments, projecting like a slideshow, consistently arguing in bad faith, and calling any two or more people disagreeing with you (but not any four or more people endorsing you) a "hivemind," and so on and so forth.

      Here's a good one, and here's another one. I don't see any provocation in those threads, but I do see from your post that you have some very acute psychic abilities. They're a bit distorted, though, as no spinning was necessary. All you need to do is read your first posts in those two threads.

      So...if no spinning was really necessary, then why in the Fog of Lost Souls did you feel the need to do it anyway?

      Since you couldn't even be bothered to directly link the posts that got you all sore: my initial contribution to the first thread was about posting from a phone. In the second thread, my first post was about how preferring A:TLA to LoK wasn't necessarily nostalgia, much like preferring LoK to A:TLA wasn't necessarily a matter of being enamored of the new and shiny.  (And my second was about Korra's character development in the latter half of the series; my third was comparing and contrasting A:TLA and LoK; my fourth was more of the same with some secondary-antagonist discussion; my fifth and sixth were about P'Li; and my seventh was a jab at Kuvira.  So, yeah; "spin" would be putting it politely.)

      Yes, I mentioned Makorra (or the antics of Makorra holdouts) in those threads.  For one, if the circumstances under which I did so are your idea of "railing," I've got some bad news for you about—to give just one example—that insult salad of yours. 

      For another?  Aside from the fact that the first time that I did even so much as mention Makorra in that second thread (my eighth post, not my first), the main subject of said post was the fact that there had been provocation: you're not the arbiter of whether or not provocation occurred. Although my fandom presence outside of this wiki is certainly none of your business, it does exist; and so, more's the pity, does frustrated Makorra wankery.  (And I'm sure that the next time you need something that you can pretend is ammo against me in particular or Korrasami 'shippers in general, you're going to dredge up the words "frustrated Makorra wankery" and wave them around out of context.)

      And it wasn't guesswork.  You've pulled that exact same stunt before.

      It'd be a greater shame if you pulled the same bullshit that you indict me for.

      Good thing I have no intention of doing so.  (In before still more spin from you.)

      As long as you acknowledge that citing Makorra has been your compulsion.

      Translation: "Have you stopped beating your husband yet?"

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I sense a safari on the horizon.
      Speaking of, I'm now trying to track down & archive the whole safari canon. So far, I'm missing at least the first, & I don't have anything after April of 2016.

      If this guy keeps badgering me, there may very well be another tour.

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    • I was hoping you might remember where some of them were.

      I have since found what I'm pretty sure is the most recent one, from January 30th where the narrator attributes his hiatus to trouble with the IRS over tax evasion.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I was hoping you might remember where some of them were.

      Found this one.

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    • Hah, we found that one at basically the same time.

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    • yeah, totally agree that this was a terrible ending. For several reasons:

      1. it came out of nowhere

      2. this might be a little more grown up then the first tv show but still it's a kids show and this relationship was totally inappropiate

      3. to be honest, aside from this being a wrong relationship, Korra is really being selfish. She's the Avatar for goodness sake. Most gay people don't live past forty years. As the protector of the world, she's supposed to be there and if she dies because of diseases then it would totally be selfish for her to be in this relationship

      4. Nick was a coward who decided not to show their true colors until the last two second of the film, then they go and confirm a bunch of other characters as gay after the show is ended and with no on screen proof that they actually are. I mean come on, I really don't believe that Kyoshi is gay. Not at all. 

      5. and lastly this may or may not stick but if the time zone for Korra is like the 1920s, do ya really think being gay would have been the least bit acceptable ofr anyone?

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    • Oh, dear.  I'd suggest scheduling another safari tour, but it seems to be rutting season for the Bigotus nohomo.  They tend to get aggressive right around then.

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    • Note the automatic presumption that a queer woman will inevitably contract "diseases" and die young even if she and her wife are unfailingly faithful to one another.  And note the complete lack of consideration that even if we take it at face value being queer is a risk factor for premature death, it might have more to do with stigmatization (violence, depression, all-around stress) than with "disease."  (Unless—worse yet—the whole thing was an attempt to blame the stigma on queer people for having the gall to exist.)

      And finally: note that pesky "if."  Since it's probably unlikely that those links will actually get read by anyone with anything to learn from them?  I'll offer a summary:  The "evidence" that most queer people allegedly "don't live past forty" was a deliberate bad-faith conclusion, drawn by an unabashed bigot, based on his having read the obituaries in a few gay periodicals at the height of the AIDS crisis.  (And, hell; to give him more credit than he's due, even he didn't put the average that low.)  In other words: something that should not be taken at face value as evidence of anything except the biases of that particular person and his imitators.

      Also: not to nitpick one little wad of nonsense out of that flood of it; but Kyoshi was bi, not gay.  (As are both Korra and Asami.)

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    • I felt like summarizing would defeat the purpose of linking to them & be just as likely to be blown off anyway, because people have been ignoring the rebuttals to their nonsense claims & regurgitating said nonsense claims for ages. I have a response from the Southern Poverty Law Center waiting in the winds in case somebody tries to pull the old "but the American Family Association debunked their debunking!" trick. Spoiler Alert: They didn't, they just told more lies to cover up the first batch of lies. But, if you're in the peanut gallery, I do recommend reading at least the links about obituary studies, because I think it's an interesting example how counter-intuitive science can be: Studying obituaries sounds like a good way to conduct mortality research, but it turns out to be a horrible idea for a whole host of reasons.

      Though I did want to point out (but forgot to) that it's more than a bit absurd to think that AIDS--a disease which we're not even sure exists in the Avatar universe, & which a lesbian is about as likely to encounter as a unicorn--would exhibit the same epidemiology patterns as modern America, which have been shaped by coincidence & government inaction. Worldwide, most people who die from AIDS are straight, & also in Africa. The notion that it somehow arises from homosexuality is some magical thinking bullshit that falls apart if you think about the ways AIDS is spread for like 5 seconds. If the first American to contract it was a gay man, of course it's going to be more common among gay men. Because they don't have sex with women or straight men.

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    • If I recall correctly: the initial jump to humans from other primates was due to hunting, and the initial spread beyond its point of origin was most likely due to dirty needles.  (Not just from IV drug users, either; unwitting doctors may have been to blame.)  And I know that at its point of origin, it didn't discriminate by gender or orientation. 

      At any rate: presuming that a fictional character in a fantasy setting is doomed to contract a real-world disease and die young of it, just by virtue of being bisexual and in love with another woman?  That's both disturbingly bigoted and patently silly.

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    • The bushmeat trade is the believed origin, but it's disputed whether the initial spread was due to unsafe medical practices or increased promiscuity. Needles are also an issue, so it also doesn't help that people have historically been more likely to kick gay kids out of their home, & homelessness is correlated with drug use.

      Also, because as I said, I am nothing if not belaboring the point, & because I think this may be the only time disguised horse may get an actual education on HIV, in "the 21 cities hit hardest by the AIDS crisis," the average amount of MSM who have AIDS is 19%. Too high, but hardly the foregone conclusion some like hidden donkey up there seem to think it is. Of course, this varied by city as well, with only [6% of gay Atlantan men testing positive.] Being black or Hispanic also significantly increased the risk of being HIV positive, gay or otherwise, which I'm sure is a talking point used by eugenics proponents.

      Switching gears, I'd actually agree that it was cowardly for Nickelodeon to not commit while the show was still running, but the "show their true colors" line was something else. I don't understand how so many people apparently didn't realize that the show was liberal as Hell.

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    • Yeah, it was a wimp move.  But Covert Mule is wrong about why it was a wimp move; it was a wimp move because it smacks of trying too hard not to push the limits of a Y7 rating or offend the self-proclaimed moral guardians.  (Who, quite frankly, are going to get their skivvies in a knot at any queer content whatsoever...as evidenced, ironically enough, by Surreptitious Onager's reaction.)

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