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  • So I just thout of a quastion Thier were two part's of the Avatar series (so far) The Legend of Korra and The Last Airbender but of the two shows Wich was more well Loved by the Fans? Also wich Avatar did you personaly like more Korra or Aang and wich Team Avatar did you personaly like more the Last Airbender one or the Legend of Korra one?

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    • 1) The general consensus seems to be that the original series was better than Korra.

      2) I liked Aang better.

      3) I liked Aang's Team Avatar better, mostly due to Sokka.

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    • The original, by far. On all accounts. 

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    • 1. Even with the Korrasami hype, I'd still say the original has a fair following. A colleague of mine actually didn't want to watch it at all, saying the unique atmosphere was somewhat destroyed.

      2. Can I just point you to any one of my posts for that, or shall I mention that I seriously considered getting an arrow tattooed on my head at one point? And that's a tough decision, I'm very proud of my hair.

      3. Sorry, Bolin. Team Korra really doesn't have the same dynamics as the Gaang. Even Suki played a bigger part than original members of Team Korra.

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    • On that note, which clever person came up with the word "Gaang"? I should like to meet them.

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    • Avatar Vyakara wrote:
      On that note, which clever person came up with the word "Gaang"? I should like to meet them.

      I'd give them my replica Pour le Mérite, but I consider it to be priceless...

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    • I'd rather not choose as both series are great though I will say that certain things {being a mini-series mostly and of course, love triangles to name some} might have prevented LOk from reaching it's full potential, especially the mini-series format.

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    • Original series:

      It was way more thought out.

      Characters had way more development.

      Better structure.

      But man, dont just accept the opinion of the mass. Evaluate things by pure independent thought and critical thinking.

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    • Honestly while it seems popular among vocal fans to hate up on Korra, I found LoK to be the more enjoyable series.  The last two season espcially did a great job with the characters and by the end of "Korra Alone" I felt a far stronger connection with Korra than I did Aang whose character I felt remained largely static throughout ATLA.  Of course I've also come across people who think that "Korra Alone" is an example of how God awful Korra is as a character because "No one from Last Airbender would be weak enough to develop PTSD.".

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    • I can see some people liking the original or the sequel for individual or varied reasons. Each one has some segments or advantages over the other, but I'd have to say the original is most likely the more popular one with fans. It might be largely due to the initial LoK run of just one book, the general 'failure' of book 2, the move from tv to internet with books 3 and 4, or a combination of multiple causes. Oh, and ATLA nostalgia.

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    • Hmm. I can see where you're coming from, Javelin, because that last argument is ridiculous. And, of course, I respect your opinion on this matter. (I happened to really like that episode myself; it seemed to get a little of the old spunk we had from Korra around Book 1 in a somewhat darker way.) But I'm not really sure the characters in LoK were that much better than in TLA, mainly because they kept getting shoved around in terms of personality. Granted, one could argue that Aang and Team Avatar were static, but they were also moving around a lot. In a way, they needed to be static, and more to the point, they did actually mature as the seasons passed. I've heard people talk about Toph in Book 4 as if she was the same Toph in TLA, and to some extent that's true. But the personality had completely reverted back to before she met the Gaang; brash, insecure, a loudmouth, incapable of doing anything for anyone but herself. And, of course, there's aspects of that Toph everywhere, but as spring turned to summer she seemed to mature considerably, showing more of a softer and calmer side, taking time to listen to other people instead of pushing them away. And that's just one of the characters, and not even the most focused-on. But on the other hand, look at Bolin. Certainly, he gained a measure of confidence, and being with Kuvira helped a lot, but I'd almost say his character regressed again when he faked an injury to try and win Opal's affection again. And don't even get me started on Raiko, or Varrick (actually, maybe not Varrick), or even Tenzin to some degree.

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    • I feel that The Last Airbender had a better dynamic, and many fans try relating characters from LOK to those of TLA, so I see that as fans perferring TLA, but it is normal to like the original versus the spin-off. Not that I didn't like LOK, I did, but although I loved Korra she seemed a bit to rash sometimes. I love Mako, even though he could be a complete tool sometimes, Zuko was like that too, and that explains my liking of him. I guess I missed the old feeling of TLA and that LOK was too new, and the 21st century scene was something you had to get used to. Characters like Asami surprised me, I thought she'd be bland like Mai, even though Mai had her moments, Asami seemed more sympthatic. To answer your question, I love both shows with all my heart, but nothing will beat TLA.

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    • I didn't like LoK at all. There were some elements like Varrick and Bolin(he was funny from time to time but his jokes seemed too forced most of the time) that i liked but there was a lot of things i disliked. If i should say all the good things from LoK, they would be: Red Lotus(not P'li, i didn't like her), Iroh, Amon/Noatak, Stand Up Amon, Amon a boat, the gif of Iroh talking to Korra with flashes of his interactions with Zuko in the previous series, and Tenzin. That's about it.

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    • ^that's admirable that you defended LOK against some of my criticisms despite not liking it.

      anyway, yeah I don't like LOK. I think it had potential to be good (except for season 2, that was just pure awfulness) but, it was ruined by changes in the universe among other things. but, what I hate most is many of the universe changes. I liked some of the plot ideas and some of the characters. The only thing better about LOK is that the animation seemed better and more consistent (damn eyes changing every other episode in ATLA).

      I actually feel like a decent amount of people like both series but, like ATLA better.

      as far as Korra's personality. eh, I actually didn't get bothered by her personality as much as others. but, maybe that's because my focus was shifted to other things. idk.

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    • I'll admit, there were a huge number of characters with potential in there. Forget Varrick for a second (it's hard), I want to know more about that page! And yeah, they did use the animation budget a bit better when it came to characters (though to tell you the truth the experimentation seemed less shaky as TLA went on). So I guess it wasn't all bad.

      Don't forget Amon-ishing Benders, Saitama. (Admonishing? Amon-ishing? I have a feeling that didn't work...)

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    • What page are you talking about? Of course the animation was better, it's been ten years(or almost it, i don't know when LoK began). But they still didn't have a fight like Aang vs Ozai or Zuko vs Azula. I really disliked the modern fighting, it felt like watching UFC fights. This kind of fight is more effective? Probably, but it doesn't have the same appeal as a Jackie Chan fight or Ip Man fighting ten black belts(at least for me). Now that i think about it, it would be awesome if ATLA had the same elements but a better animation like LoK. The fights would be amazing.

      I forgot to say but my favorite is Aang and the Gaang. I also disliked the way they used lightining and metalbending in LoK, but what really made me dislike the show is probably something that most people don't even have a problem with, that is the modernization.

      Character wise, Zaheer and Ghazan seem pretty interesting, and the interactions of the RL in general are really good kinda like a opposite version of the Gaang. Noatak/Amon was good too but they rushed things with him too much.

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    • I didn't mind most of the modernization. I would've preferred it not to happen but, I was ok with it.

      what I didn't like were the sci fi things like the mecha tanks.

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    • I did feel like the designs of LoK were very hit or miss. A number of the misses consisted of Unalaq, the top Amon chi-blockers (way too evil looking for a group looking to bring equality), the cgi designs, and a good number of the background characters although I suppose they could be passable. Some of the hits included a good number of core characters and the backgrounds in the later books.

      I've noticed that some people like the newer setting and some really dislike it so I'd place it in that middle camp. 

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    • ^don't forget the spirit designs. which were 98% misses.

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    • The dark spirits especially ... I felt a lot of them were just purple with tentacles. The spirits from ATLA definitely had better designs, especially Hei Bai with his peaceful panda and angry monster forms.

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    • TheAvatarNate wrote:
      ^don't forget the spirit designs. which were 98% misses.

      Some were indeed generic and others were simply stuff we'd seen before in other films, but I saw a few that felt were decent representations. The creators do talk about a design deadline so there's some reason to believe they weren't able to get out enough, unique designs.

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    • A design deadline? It's getting easier and easier for me to like these guys again. Well, Toph's revamp aside, anyway.

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    • Book 2 did feel like it was extremely rushed in just about every aspect, but I haven't really seen anything that says how much time they had with the production or how much towards individual parts of the production itself. 

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    • if I had a design deadline I just would write most of the spirits out of the story instead of making a ton of stupid looking ones.

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    • In response to the OP, seems to me like Avatar: The Last Airbender was more popular among the fans, and that is the one I like better. I also liked Aang's party better.

      It was just one of the best made anime in my opinion, with fantastic pacing and character development being particularly exceptional. It had a great mix of main story and side story content and balanced the two very well.

      I think Legend of Korra only really surpasses it in visuals (which were frequently stunning) and the final scenes, LoK had a very powerful finish in the last two minutes that ATLA didn't hit (it was kind of par for the course).

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    • I guess I should stop avoiding this thread....

      My base impression is that Avatar is, overall, a more consistent story, but I do question that to an extent, because I have not seen it criticized anywhere near the extent that I have its sequel. I already know of at least a few things that "Legend of Korra" gets ripped apart for which are always ignored in Avatar, such as the tendency for the Avatar to not win without a last minute save from a Deus Ex Machina.

      The characters are sort of a mixed bag. I vastly prefer Korra to Aang (& Korra's love interest to Aang's, for that matter), but of the supporting cast, there aren't many that I'm enormously interested in, whereas I'm very fond of Toph, Sokka, & Zuko. Moving to villains, my favorites would have to be Amon, Azula, & Ty Lee.

      Despite being a sequel, the setting of "Legend of Korra" is counter-intuitively more original. I can sum up Avatar's setting in 5 words: "Feudal Asia with steampunk elements." Even if you come up with a similar thing for Korra, such as "Roaring 20's Asia with magic," how many times has the Roaring 20's even been used as a fantasy setting? I can think of Fullmetal Alchemist, Bioshock Infinite, I've heard that Boccano! is, &...that's pretty much it. "Legend of Korra" also got rid of the Countries of Hats sort of thing, where the countries arbitrarily had certain themes & there was little to no mixing between them. I forget who put it this way, but someone once described Avatar as "Some water people help an air person get to the north pole while protecting him from fire people." You can't really sum up the political situation in "Korra" so simply.

      One nice thing about the Big Bad Per Season format is that we got a pretty nice rotation of plots. I can say that the Equalist Rebellion & the Red Lotus were some of my favorite story arcs in the franchise's history.

      Right now, I'm inclined to say that I enjoy "Legend of Korra" a bit more. Maybe I've just seen Avatar too many times, maybe I'm tired of it being overhyped, or maybe I'll look back some time & conclude that the sequel actually IS better. Iunno.

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    • someone once described Avatar as "Some water people help an air person get to the north pole while protecting him from fire people."

      Hmm, when you put it like that, I guess LoK does have the edge in political complexity, particularly when you consider the ideology of Zaheer and his gang.

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    • It's Baccano! and you forgot JoJo.

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    • I'm not familiar with JoJo, & I don't really watch Baccano!

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    • ...are you two speaking Bokonese, by chance? I hope I'm not offending.

      On the note of complexity, sure, they were more complex in setup in LoK, but definitely not in detail. We actually got a chance to see how the movements worked in TLA; with Korra, they're squashed before we really get a good idea of all the variation in the systems. Even the Red Lotus is really unclear at times, especially concerning membership.

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    • I am in the same boat as Neo's outlook on this. I think he has a point and there are definitely some refreshing areas touched on in LOK that we did not get to see in TLA. Honestly, as a fanbase everyone wants to go into deep deep detail about every aspect the show brings up, which is natural. But it's a shame that sometimes it's not just enjoyed as much at face value. If it was an 18-22 epsiode season, then I would be much more inclined to argue that plots or characters were not fleshed out enough, but I am sure it was a balancing act, and I think that kept things dynamic in LOK. Honestly, I enjoyed the contrast of story telling style between the two series. As stated above, I was excited to see who the next villian would be and how it would provide a vastly different challenge physically and mentally for Korra. Aang had a very straight forward goal, not too much to confuse about having to take out the head figure/dictator/emperor, it was about getting to the point where he could act on what he wanted to do really. Half the time, Korra wasn't even sure what exactly to do about the problem. Things were bigger than her (Political scandal with Tarrlok), or villains felt somewhat the same way she did (Korra HATED Ho Ting truthfully). So what if we didn't get more nameless Red Lotus members? The 4 we got were in high protection prisions for a reason. I really only care about them to be honest. I think one of the best representations of how impactful this style is, was in book 3 Venom of the Red Lotus where Korra sees the halucinations of all the Villians she has faced. Just done in a spectacular way to show how seriously messed up some of her encounters have been. As much as I thought Unalaque had his flaws, how much would that suck for your Uncle to not only screw your father over, but straight up want to kill you... interesting betrayal though. Guess I just liked being able to sit back and enjoy the newer style of show, and trusted in the writers and animators to provide a great product, which I think they did.   

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    • Actually, the nameless Red Lotus members were my problem. I can understand settings where the villains actually have a point, but not when they suddenly add more people from nowhere (nullifying the earlier point about young people not being in the RL, by the way).

      The problem with me wasn't the setup, it was the consistency. The jumps between antagonist and villain seemed just a teensy bit rushed, and I know they may have tried to balance it, but there were some extremes I felt just didn't work. After Amon, nobody seemed to act rationally enough to transition smoothly. Unalaq...maybe, but Zaheer and his group went from anarchists to cold-blooded terrorists a little too quick, and Kuvira's Colossus just...where the Fog of Lost Souls did she get that much platinum, anyway?

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    • Hmmm, one of the big complaints about ATLA is that deus ex machina during the Ozai fight so I'm sure if its really ignored, but overshadowed by the even more ridiculous attempts in the sequel. There's also the idea that LoK is more current in the minds of the community, seeing how it recently ended.

      @Avatar Vyakara: It wasn't just the Red Lotus mooks, but the mooks of Unalaq could also be included. Perhaps even all of the mooks to different degrees. They were essentially just there, whenever the plot needed them for convience. How about using them to help open that portal instead of just Eska/Desna?

      Much of that problem might be that the plot seemed to rush through some of those villain scenes and essentially just get rid of the villains every book. Did they really have to do that? Kuvira, in particular, seemed like the kind of character you'd want to develop [effectively] over a few books.

      There was that transition to an almost "heroic" feeling during Toph's speech, although that speech really should have been Korra saying it to someone as an epiphany. But it did more Toph lines.

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    • ...are you two speaking Bokonese, by chance? I hope I'm not offending.

      Baccano! is an anime from the creator of Durarara! Durarara! is set in modern Ikebukuro, Tokyo. Starring a headless Irish faerie.

      (nullifying the earlier point about young people not being in the RL, by the way).

      What? Anyway, my problem with the other members of the Red Lotus is that they left that plot thread hanging & never did anything with it. Not even so much as "We arrested them all during the timeskip."

      @Avatar Vyakara: It wasn't just the Red Lotus mooks, but the mooks of Unalaq could also be included. Perhaps even all of the mooks to different degrees. They were essentially just there, whenever the plot needed them for convience. How about using them to help open that portal instead of just Eska/Desna?

      Money, that's why.

      Much of that problem might be that the plot seemed to rush through some of those villain scenes and essentially just get rid of the villains every book. Did they really have to do that?

      You know, if were guaranteed more seasons, I might agree with this, but I didn't really want to see a situation where Book 1 was its own self-contained story & the remaining 3 Books were all continuations of the same plot. It would be too lopsided.

      But now, with something like Bones, there's like 10 seasons so it's not so weird if some of the overarching villains last for 2 or 3.

      Kuvira, in particular, seemed like the kind of character you'd want to develop [effectively] over a few books.

      There aren't enough letters in the word "no."

      Hmmm, one of the big complaints about ATLA is that deus ex machina during the Ozai fight so I'm sure if its really ignored, but overshadowed by the even more ridiculous attempts in the sequel. There's also the idea that LoK is more current in the minds of the community, seeing how it recently ended.

      I don't think people really complain about it that much, but that's not even the only one. There's also the "conveniently shaped rock" that unblocks Aang's Chi & allows him to use the Avatar State & the fusion with the Ocean Spirit. In the only season finale without a Deus Ex Machina, the Gaang loses.

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    • Rushing: Why would you need 10 seasons? ATLA did it with 3 books?

      Kuvira: It was easy to develop her character in book 3 alone but they just waited till almost the end to even say her name. So, it would have been doable without much effort at all. Just switch her with Suyin at the end with the metalbending the poison so you have an interesting situation in book 4 during their first meeting. 

      Gaang losing: It doesn't look good for Ozai either even if he defeats Aang: his airships are gone, Azula is defeated, and Ba Sing Se is retaken. The fusion thing is odd because its just kind of happens and nothing close to it really occurs again. Even Korra doesn't bother trying to fuse with other spirits, other than to reform the status quo in book 2.

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    • Rushing: I don't know why you called this "rushing," since that's not what I said, but Avatar had 1 main villain that the other main villains were connected to. That is not the same thing as developing several different conflicts over the course of the series.

      Kuvira: Better yet, not have her at all.

      Gaang Losing: The fight with Ozai is something I brought up in a different thread. The Gaang lost in "Crossroads of Destiny," due to lack of a Deus Ex Machina. Except the spirit water, I guess, but that was more of a Chekhov's Gun. For fusing with Spirits, that's essentially what combining forces with the Ocean Spirit was, so again, this is not an exclusive problem with "Legend of Korra."

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    • Rushing: The idea of the villains just being extremes (or imbalances) is pretty loose. I'm more refering to the idea of having them develop more over their respective season rather than going as quickly as you can to get rid of them. For example, more time with Unalaq or spirits instead of RC stuff.

      You'd have to create another character to replace. It would be difficult as they essentially just introduced her in book 4 because we didn't know anything about her in book 3. At that point you could just take out the superfical story element about her and Korra.

      Ocean Spirits: Yeah, its one of those weird things that's just glossed over. I think most would agree that writing is better without those kind of elements or minimized.

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    • I suppose it's fair to say that Unalaq & the Dark Spirits could have been given more screen time. Though I was referring more to the idea of continuing a villain across multiple Books.

      It wouldn't be difficult at all, as I've said before, any background character could have done Kuvira's job.

      I don't really see the "spirit fusion" as a big deal, it was established to have a cost & not many Spirits would want to do it anyway. As for the theory of Spirits weaponizing it against humans, humans now have a lot more methods to fight back against Spirits, particularly the Avatar, & since Wan's time, a number of Spirits have become indifferent or even benevolent towards humans.

      Certain other things, sure. I'm still a bit mad that Cosmic Korra & Unavaatu were never explained. I suppose we're meant to take it that Harmonic Convergence was 1 big "screw the rules."

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    • There's enough elements going on in LoK to have some sort of villain, or group of villains, over multiple books. You could have even used a book or two  with two or more groups of villains running around: have the Red Lotus "win" a book and cause rampant chaos in the EK and then have Korra somehow have to deal with them and whoever replaces Kuvira. I'm sure multiple scenarios or paths could exist.

      I thought the Cosmic Korra and Unavaatu were made to appeal to the creators' love of kaiju and Pacific Rim? Sometimes that might be all you need rather than anything in the story? I would have also prefered something to be explained about that situation. 

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    • Which would be weird, because the Red Lotus would take up 2 books while Amon only got 1.

      That too.

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    • I suppose if the first book wasn't self-contained? I guess you could also do something with Amon in that case, but that might just go down to the personal preference of the writer. Likewise with all the other characters or elements.

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    • To be honest with you, it really depends. In the first series, I suppose we forgave the Dei Ex Machinis, but looking back, I can understand why. Sure, merging with La came out of nowhere, but we really didn't know much about the Avatar back then, and it made sense to assume that, somewhere, multiple combinations were possible. The blocked chakra was brought up continuously throughout the third book, not to mention being talked about in some depth the book before, and the way that it opened was done in a way that seemed both realistic and dramatic in spite of it coming out of nowhere. (I think I should mention that the reason the Gaang lost is not because they didn't have a Deus Ex Machina; they really did, though it was more a "god out of rock pyramid". The reason they lost is because the Avatar State wanted to show off in front of a psychopath who could generate lightning on a whim, and who wasn't overawed by theatricals like the Dai Li.) But Korra's Dei Ex Machinīs seemed...off. Sure, there was the bit with Aang, and personally, I liked that one; it had a nice buildup, it gave her a new skill (okay, I didn't like that bit; how come she didn't have to work for it?), and most importantly, it wasn't rushed as much; they let you feel the loss, let you understand what had been done, and what was necessary to fix it turned out to be something new, but possible and even reasonable by the old show's standards. But the rest? Korra turning into the Blue Spirit? Vaatu bringing giant vines? No more past Avatars? A new portal? When at any point were any of these addressed or even thought of by the characters before the events? Sure, the after-effects are felt very strongly, but there's no buildup, no sense of story; they just...happen. And yes, I'm sure it can be argued that the new spirit portal was potentially there with Energybending, but honestly, why not just dissipate the energy? Why not just have the vines consume it? Why destroy, in a nutshell, what it took seven seasons to make?

      And yes, probably a large part of it is that they were working on a sequel series, and the original had fairly set guidelines about what was possible and what wasn't. There's a very fine line with sequels between original material and horrendous deviation, and a lot of it has to do with timing and setup. Korra walking into a tree wasn't very much of a buildup; Vaatu bringing forth vines was never thought of before, and only served to alter the setting drastically without any explanation. It's all in the script, friends, and if it doesn't flow, it has to go.

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    • Blue Spirit: Okay.

      Loss of Avatars: Unalaq stated he was going to destroy the Avatar, & Amon voiced a similar sentiment.

      Vines: Unalaq said that he wanted to bring the Spirits back & the Avatar demonstrated the power to combine with Spirits before.

      Portal: Vaatu mentioned breaking through the divide between worlds to create the original portal, establishing that enough spiritual power can create portals.

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    • Blue Spirit: Thank you.

      Loss of Avatars: Amon wanted to destroy the current Avatar. Unalaq ripped the spirit of light out of the Avatar, and destroyed the connection to the past Avatars (which by the way should have destroyed her multi-bending abililties as well, seeing as they were passed through Raava with Wan).

      Vines: I'm not upset per se that the vines happened, I'm just confused as to why Vaatu never used them before if he had the power. Moreover, why didn't Raava? Was Plantbending just one of Unalaq's subskills that we never learned about? Are all the spirit vines giant energy-enhanced kelp?

      Portal: ...maybe. What's also possible is that the portals were there before, which kept the compasses working, and that Vaatu just learned how to open them. Also, would that mean Vaatu can Energybend? And Korra's carrying him around inside her? Who thought that was a good idea?

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    • Avatar Vyakara wrote:
      Blue Spirit: Thank you.

      Loss of Avatars: Amon wanted to destroy the current Avatar. Unalaq ripped the spirit of light out of the Avatar, and destroyed the connection to the past Avatars (which by the way should have destroyed her multi-bending abililties as well, seeing as they were passed through Raava with Wan).

      Vines: I'm not upset per se that the vines happened, I'm just confused as to why Vaatu never used them before if he had the power. Moreover, why didn't Raava? Was Plantbending just one of Unalaq's subskills that we never learned about? Are all the spirit vines giant energy-enhanced kelp?

      Portal: ...maybe. What's also possible is that the portals were there before, which kept the compasses working, and that Vaatu just learned how to open them. Also, would that mean Vaatu can Energybend? And Korra's carrying him around inside her? Who thought that was a good idea?

      The whole Vaatu control over spirits itself is confusing. It seems like the presence alone can influence them somewhat, but then we have other dark spirits like that sea serpent which just looks to be operating on its own. In fact, if we didn't know that being eaten by a spirit would send you somewhere else (which is odd too), who knows what would have happened to the story.

      Most of the spirit vine problem stems from the idea that they and spirits are one and the same. Yet, we don't have a good grasp on what that means exactly nor is it exactly explored. Plus, the problem of spirit bending not working on them? Then the whole problem of them reacting to Kuvira's harvesting and that entire plot.

      Portals: Yeah, they were there before LoK. I think the idea is that Vaatu told Unalaq (who really knows because the story decides to never really tell us that much of their relationship) when they somehow first established contact or some time after that. I guess the Avatar just forgot about Raava or the portals throughout the years.

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    • I was supposed to establish that there was buildup, & I did.

      The vines are very simple: They are Spirits. There's nothing more to be said there, it is a literal statement. Korra's technique could not work on them because it can only purify impure Spirits, she does not know the "corruption" variant, nor would she use it if she did.

      Dark Spirits, likewise, are Spirits that have been corrupted. Vaatu will corrupt Spirits, being the incarnation of chaos, but Spirits can become Dark without him.

      Obviously the Sea Spirit didn't eat Korra, that was merely a cliffhanger.

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    • Buildup? To destroying the past lives? In what possible way? Maybe I'm misinterpreting this.

      Okay. Say the vines are spirits. I'll even throw in the unnecessary purification thing; that was a good idea there. So why has no other spirit been able to make them? Not even those that would benefit from, I dunno, an extra bit of nature in a place that's really devoid of plant life? Can you imagine how much easier life would have been in Senlin if Hei Bai could just shshshshlomph some new trees into existence?

      I still say they're just kelp on spiritual steroids.

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    • There was about as much build-up as there was to the fact that Spirit Water could revive the dead, or a rock was going to unleash the fury of the Avatar State. There were offhand mentions of chi being blocked or water that would become important later, but nothing was explicitly spelled out before it happened.

      Why would any old Spirit be able to do what Raava & Vaatu can? Aside from a few general characteristics, the Spirits all have very specific powers, if indeed they have any. Raava & Vaatu have not demonstrated abilities of "lesser" spirits like the Aye-Aye's teleportation, & I'd expect that before I'd expect Hei Bai demonstrating the powers of the Spirits of Balance & Chaos.

      Thouh Hei Bai actually DOES create more trees, humorously enough. I always just assumed that it could only be done when passing between worlds, & was not very efficient.

      Anyway, now that we know the vines are Spirits themselves, & we know from the original series that the Avatar could combine with a Spirit, it makes a lot of sense that the Dark Avatar could reroute the vines.

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    • Eh, I'd say the Spirit Water was (as mentioned above) more a Chekov's Gun than an actual Deus.

      True. They do all have specific powers. It's just that I always assumed Vaatu would be too busy acting as a living evil embodiment of an abstract concept to really care about horticulture. I mean, the only thing Raava was able to do was Bend in somebody else's body, and even then the human got the Bending first. Even if the vines are just new spirits, the Avatar was working in sync with La, not harnessing him directly; Vaatu didn't exactly turn into Hu's swamp puppet to flood the city in green. Anyway, wouldn't it have been so much easier to fight Raava if he could summon spiritually enhanced kelp to pull her down while he struggled to get free?

      Oh, yeah! Right when he was leaving! I mean, they were just saplings, but they were still plants. Maybe Kuvira should have tried Senlin first.

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    • Raava has the same power, so it wouldn't be of that much use. The plants are not very sophisticated spirits, as Hu could control them--they express only minimal will of their own.

      Vaatu probably doesn't, but Unalaq does.

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    • He must have made a stop at the Foggy Swamp on the way down to the South Pole...

      Bit of an exaggeration there, Neo. To be honest, I don't really know how spirit vines differ from regular plants. I presume they're different somehow (I know Hu Bended them, but he was using the water inside the vines, not controlling their spirit directly or creating them; he did the same later with seaweed). I just had a very funny vision of the Dark Avatar going green, the Mr. Hyde version of the Lorax maybe. Hence the energy-enhanced kelp I've been going on about.

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    • More likely, dug them up from the Spirit World.

      I wasn't saying that they were being controlled in the same way, just that they seem to have very primitive minds. They'll lash out if they're damaged, but they're easy to control otherwise. They do send visions & such, but they're really just a manifestation of what the person's subconscious wants to see.

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    • Wait, are we talking about Vaatu or Unalaq here?

      Hmm. You make a point. Do you reckon the Republic City vines also bring back memories, or is that a swamp thing mainly?

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    • Vaatu uses the vines against Korra, but it's mainly Unavaatu who brings them into the human world.

      There was probably a lot more spiritual energy at Foggy Swamp, but the new portal may have changed that. On the other hand, daily distractions probably inhibit visions & they're building the city away from the Spirit Wilds.

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    • So it's more likely to be something Unalaq was working on in his spare time?

      Hmm. Well, I must admit, they barely seemed to notice the spirits after a while (but then again, those little ones don't exactly show majestic feats of power like the older ones).

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    • As in when Unavaatu jams his tentacles into the ground, he summons them from the Spirit World.

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    • I guess...it's just strange that he would actually want to. If they're pure spirits, then why would the spirit of chaos call them forth? You'd think he'd be botanophobic by now, having been stuck in a tree for all of civilization.

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    • I still think people underestimate how much influence Unalaq had, Unalaq having stated a few times that he wanted to bring back the Spirits.

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    • It seems more like Vaatu's influence that Unalaq's. Maybe if we got to see him turn a few spirits evil with that spirit ending?

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    • The power is Vaatu's, the motive is Unalaq's. Compare it to closing the portals. It was Raava's power, but Wan's decision.

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    • Not too sure about that. The dialogue after the transformation and the transformation itself seem to indicate more control for Vaatu. Even the set up paints Unalaq as simply aninstrument for Vaatu to leave his prison. Part of the problem is the lack of interaction between the two.

      That and the problem of Unalaq needing the twins to go after Korra, but that's solved by a magical dark spirit that prevents the two groups from fighting. There's also the problem that killing the Avatar does prevent Vaatu from being released but that also pretty much stops Unalaq too since he cannot open the other portal. 

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    • Vaatu does seem more in control...but I find it hard to believe he'd bring uncorrupted spirits back into the physical world without a jolly good reason. Unalaq, at least to begin with, might have had some kind of motivation like that. Again, we really don't know, seeing as they barely speak to one another at all before fusing.

      Yeah...of course, maybe if the Avatar–not just Korra–died, there'd be a way as well, seeing as Vaatu would just swallow the new Raava and maybe use the extra burst to break out.

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    • It's not surprising that people think that Unalaq was a mindless puppet to Vaatu, since that's what everyone was predicting would happen. But that expectation was never really met, Unalaq retained his personality after fusing with Vaatu, & there's no reason to believe that changed when he turned into a giant squidman.

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    • Oh, yeah, he did look a bit like a squid, didn't he? I never really thought about that. I suppose the shift from human to spirit form seemed to suggest that Vaatu was just using him as a puppet. Hmm...I wonder...would that form have been limited to Harmonic Convergence? If Korra had destroyed Vaatu during Harmonic Convergence before Raava got ripped out of her, do you think she would have grown into a giant as well?

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      It's not surprising that people think that Unalaq was a mindless puppet to Vaatu, since that's what everyone was predicting would happen. But that expectation was never really met, Unalaq retained his personality after fusing with Vaatu, & there's no reason to believe that changed when he turned into a giant squidman.

      It's more of a combination than anything. At least, from the creator's view in the artbook. The dialogue after the transformation doesn't help the 'in-control' aspect.

      There's also the problem of the powers and portfolio of Vaatu himself and how different they are from Raava. Raava is the spirit of light and peace so control would be problematic from that perspective and the other Avatars. The Avatar state would have been an easy workaround way to have her there for the shows but they didn't go that way. 

      Vaatu, on the other hand, easily influences spirits, controls the spirit vines, and espically manipulation (the key trait). He's also the spirit of darkness which would certainly mean quite a difference in the relationship than any of Raava's so the idea of it being like the Avatar is unlikely because those differences. It's the reason for the whole transformation thing and the ability to emerge from Unalaq to rip out Raava from Vaatu.

      Raava and Vaatu are based on the yin/yang philosophy: complementary and opposing forces. The opposing side is certainly there but the idea of complementary isn't. 

      Mindless is bit much but Unalaq almost ruined his own plans several times and acted generally incompetent throughout the book.

      @Vyakara: Well, Korra did become that giant during the final fight so it evens out? The problem with a giant Korraava after the HC is the writing for it? I guess they could go in Dune's direction and the god-emperor worm thing?

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    • No, it's established that they have similar powers, Unalaq's whole plan doesn't work unless they do.

      I can't shake the feeling that people just don't want there to be answers to some of these questions.

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    • I didn't like Unalaq much as a character, but I have to give him credit that he played everybody pretty well to get what he wanted. If he was incompetent, he was less so than his opponents.

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    • Some of us, on the other hand, most certainly do, Neo.

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    • Avatar Vyakara wrote: Some of us, on the other hand, most certainly do, Neo.

      I don't think I've ever seen you accept an answer besides "plot hole!"

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      No, it's established that they have similar powers, Unalaq's whole plan doesn't work unless they do.

      Where was this established? Even if you take the literal portfolios of the two (light and peace versus darkness and destruction) there's not too much room for much to share besides the link potential with a human. Even with Vaatu cannot open or close the portals, the simple idea of getting the Raava Avatar to open the portals remains.

      It's true that we only have one other duality-like relationship in Avatar that we've seen: Tui and La. 

      There's certainly some definite competency and shenanigans going on in book 2. I'd point to something like Lin in book 2 as one such example of how you take a good character and turn them into a shell of their former self.

      Unalaq: I think the basic idea of trying to get the world back in tune with the spirits is a good one but the way its executed is just so ineffectual. This is the same thing that happens a few other times in the series and drags it down. Way way way back in a thread I thought that tying Unalaq with Aang as his spirital teacher would have an easy change that really adds an interesting dynamic.

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    • Maybe I'm not understanding you...but are you saying Vaatu couldn't open the spirit portals, assuming he were free? Vaatu couldn't open the portals because he was bound in the Tree of Time. Vaatu presumably created or opened the portals in the first place and connected the material and spiritial worlds, as per his testimony. If he were free, and Raava wasn't hindering him, there's little reason to believe he couldn't have opened them himself.

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    • Vaatu needs the portals merely opened to be released during the HC. Even if he wasn't freed and couldn't open or close the portals, the basic plan to get the Avatar to open the portals remains.

      The creation of the portal(s) doesn't necessarily imply Vaatu can open or close as the Avatar can. I suppose you could connect the idea to the art book pictures of the portals around the tree of time being a yin/yang symbol of rocks. That would illustrate that there was two possible forces at work for portal generation rather than one. Then again, Vaatu is giving half-truths in several instances and we also have Zaheer telling the Avatar they can do almost anything.

      Extending beyond that, maybe it's more along the idea of the Avatar creation? That you would need a Raava-like spirit to form with one and the power of the HC. The problem with that is the idea of formation relies on a cosmic event and the power around it rather than either spirit itself, if a spirit binding to a human is only limited to Raava (and if they are extending it to Vaatu).

      We do have one portal being generated in book 4 through the use of some Avatar magic and a ton of spirit energy. You could look at the color of the spirit gun's energy as Vaatu-like, thus requiring two opposing sources of energy to create a portal rather than a singular one.

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    • It kind of does, if he's to be believed, he tore through the barriers between the two worlds, the portals are the only known openings between the two worlds.

      Where does Vaatu give half truths? Barring his deceiving Wan to become free and gain the upper hand. What does he have to gain by lying about this? What makes it even seem unreasonable that he could?

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    • There seemed to be ways to get into and out of the spirit world. Didn't Hei Bei use the solstice as a means to cross into either? There's also the pools of The Mother of Faces and how you view them. But all of these come after Vaatu breaks the divide.

      Did Vaatu say he spanned the divide or something like that? It does imply he was the first through or formed the first way between the two worlds. This also leads to the problem of the dual portals and their presentation. If the idea that it requires two different sources from Korra's portal is true, then it requires both Vaatu and Raava's powers to generate the portal(s) and Vaatu was merely the one who triggered their creation and/or was first to go through them.

      The general notion of being a friend or postive to the spirits is a half truth because of the way Vaatu actually treats them as almost literal puppets by his mere presence alone in one scene in Beginnings. He, or it, just uses them for his own benefit. It could simply be his nature as the spirit of darkness and chaos, 

      LoK has alot of interesting ideas going on but the way some of them are are executed is something that could have been pulled off more effectively. 

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    • Hei Bei seemed to have the ability to move between the worlds, what I meant was actual gates that things could go through without a special ability to travel between them. When Wan closed the portals, most physical and most spirit beings couldn't walk between the two planes as they could before. But either way, this is presumably after Vaatu broke through the barrier between the worlds to begin with. And some spirits did stay on the physical side when Wan sealed it. Also, Hei Bei was before the LoK retcons...so there is that.

      It doesn't really seem to imply that at all. Vaatu apparently opened them on his own and Raava (well, fused with Wan) closed them, then opened, them again on her own. As for Korra's portal, it could simply have been a huge concentration of energy just breaking through being what needed to happen, and in this instance, it was achieved by Korra acting against the rampaging spirit cannon. It might have produced the energy to do it without her, seeing as it was drawing more and more power from the vines and apparently was intensifying.

      Where does Vaatu talk about being a friend to the spirits? Where does he use them as literal puppets? His influence draws out their darker side or their darker side empowers him, but Raava essentially does the same thing only in reverse. Anyways, where is the deception on his part?

      Well, for LoK, sure, some of them were interesting ideas, but they felt kinda cobbled together and not really a smooth continuation of ATLA's themes. So, I am inclined to agree.

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    • Spirits have an easier time of moving from one plane to the other, provided they have enough energy & the divide is weak, but the portals allow more-or-less uninhibited passage between worlds.

      Raavaatu would have been combined at the time, so presumably they created the portals by fighting, either at the same time or in separate battles.

      I would say it's pretty clear that Vaatu uses Spirits as puppets. They certainly seem to feel that way, plus he had them acting as his private army.

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    • We also have some humans able to enter the spirit world, though they lose their physical world powers like bending. This is however in the wake of Vaatu breaking through.

      We don't really know that Vaatu and Raava are always connected like they were when Wan happened upon them. It seemed implied that Raava grabbed hold of him and so they were wrestling around, while they are complimentary and intrinsically linked, they might not always have to be directly, physically connected, prior to Wan severing the tentacles. Also, during Vaatu's claim of responsibility, he clearly says that he did it using the term "I." And if it was their fighting that did it, it would seem like he'd mention that, as that would reasonably be a sore spot for Raava, "WE did this" as opposed to "Just me" like "hahaha! You helped create what you view to be a problem, loser!"

      Not so sure about that bit on them being puppets. We never hear any testimony from the dark spirits one way or the other, but they may actually agree with him. Keeping in mind, he was still imprisoned and couldn't overtly do anything, these spirits could have come to him, wanting to get back territory in the physical realm, were bitter about the result of the last HC, still hated humans, what have you.

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    • We also have some humans able to enter the spirit world, though they lose their physical world powers like bending. This is however in the wake of Vaatu breaking through.

      Humans can enter the Spirit World by detaching their spirits from their bodies by meditation. After that, many of the same rules apply: A lot of spiritual energy (have to be very spiritual to do it) & where/when the borders between worlds are weakest.

      We don't really know that Vaatu and Raava are always connected like they were when Wan happened upon them. It seemed implied that Raava grabbed hold of him and so they were wrestling around, while they are complimentary and intrinsically linked, they might not always have to be directly, physically connected, prior to Wan severing the tentacles.

      Everything that happened when they were severed suggests it's a highly uncommon event. Raava immediately shrunk down several sizes, the monks were surprised that she would show up without her other half, Raava suggests this is how she keeps Vaatu "in-line," & of course, since 1 emerges from the other, well, their life cycle starts out with them attached, so why would you let your enemy go?

      Also, during Vaatu's claim of responsibility, he clearly says that he did it using the term "I." And if it was their fighting that did it, it would seem like he'd mention that, as that would reasonably be a sore spot for Raava, "WE did this" as opposed to "Just me" like "hahaha! You helped create what you view to be a problem, loser!"

      Vaatu's kind of an arrogant dick. As for the latter, well it's been so long since it happened, there's really nowhere in the dialogue where it could easily come up, & also Raava never said that she considers the portals a problem.

      Not so sure about that bit on them being puppets. We never hear any testimony from the dark spirits one way or the other, but they may actually agree with him.

      Technically, the weird eel spirit thing says that Unalaq was using them, but with a few exceptions, Vaatu was the one actually turning them.

      There's also Aye-Aye, who apparently had no idea what was going on while he was "darkened." Sure, he was angry, but it's not suggested that he wanted to be one of Vaatu's foot soldiers.

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    • Yeah, and while that can happen, what I was getting at was that they can't just waltz in easily, like they could with the opened portals, and much less widespread for beings of one to go over to the other.

      Indeed, they may have been linked often or all the time, just, we don't really know.

      True, I guess she doesn't, that's more of a Wan thing.

      Thing about that is, Vaatu was sealed while a number of them turned dark. We also saw human emotions influencing them. Unalaq may have been scheming, but we don't really see Vaatu manipulating him or even Unalaq manipulating the spirits, we aren't shown how it all goes down, if it's forced, willingly, or if Vaatu just being around influences them naturally (ie, he can't really help it, his aura does this). I'm not really convinced it's Vaatu doing it, not that I'm ruling out entirely, but it seems to be one of those things that isn't entirely explained.

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    • Yeah, and while that can happen, what I was getting at was that they can't just waltz in easily, like they could with the opened portals, and much less widespread for beings of one to go over to the other.

      Yes, I agree with most of what you're saying, & it's refreshing to see someone else explain some of these things. I'm just adding additional points, in this case the circumstances under which it is not necessary to use the portals to cross from 1 plane to the other.

      Also, Wan Shi Tong must be pretty powerful to move a whole damn library that's basically a castle.

      Indeed, they may have been linked often or all the time, just, we don't really know. True, I guess she doesn't, that's more of a Wan thing.

      Right. It's mostly the fact that Raava shrinks immediately after being severed from Vaatu that makes me think she's seldom apart from him prior to the Wan Incident, if ever. Once they are, it appears that the scales shift in Vaatu's favor.

      Thing about that is, Vaatu was sealed while a number of them turned dark. We also saw human emotions influencing them.

      Vaatu is not the only thing that turns Spirits Dark, but he does possess the power to control Dark Spirits, & something which the prison sphere does not seem to block.

      I suppose it's possible that Unalaq was somehow able to assume control of the Dark Spirits directly, but I'm not sure how that would work.

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    • Negative influence of Vaatu: The influence of Vaatu inside the prison is an odd one. It does appear he's like a 'black' sun: radiating some sort of negative energy, but some of these spirits (like the water leviathan) seem to act on their own without some sort of controller like Unalaq around.

      I'm more likely to think of Unalaq doing the negative spirit bending while Vaatu is locked away because we actually see him doing it. First to Jinora and then to spririt Korra. He isn't successful but he does use it. However, after being released, we get that tide of dark spirits.

      Crossing from one plane to another: The larger and more powerful spirits seem to be able to cross from one realm to another, only needing some point to do so. Hei Bei uses the season and mom using the pool. I do wonder how long Jinora was playing with the spirits or how many were running around invisible before the portals were opened?

      Small Raava: Plus Raava is still essentially small until she's reborn when Korra takes her out. The whole sealing of Vaatu and the portals seem more likely Wan just using the positive energy. There's even the idea of the addition of physical elements (bending) to supplement the lock if we look at the Unalaq, Eska, and Desna scene to try and open it and the overal power of elements towards spirits (either against Vaatu with Wan/Korra and spirit bending).

      However, was there any indication that the tree of time would make a prison for Vaatu and that Wan could even do it prior? There never looked to be a transfer of knowledge or experience from Raava to the Avatar. I did find the book 2 art book qoute about the portals situation:

      "BK: I remember working out the spirit world portal area with Mike and the writers, trying to interpret and add to their ideas visually with pen scribbles on a legal pad. We all agreed upon this yin-and-yang expanse of rock, with the earth distorted by the formation of the portals. Not only did Raava and Vaatu pierce through to the physical realm here, but I also like to imagine that those spirits originated here, born of energy from the primordial Tree of Time."'

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    • I've explained multiple times that Dark Spirits are what happens when a Spirit gets angry & becomes unbalanced, people just...don't seem to want to believe it.

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    • Well, it was a litle unclear in places. For all we know, those Dark Spirits could merely be applying modern fashion trends for all the sophistication they have. Not to mention Desna and Eska can ride them.

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    • I don't remember them doing that, but yeah, some of them obey Unalaq, because Vaatu can take control of nearby Dark Spirits & Unalaq is Vaatu's no. 2.

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    • Either third- or second-last episode of Book 2. They're effectively Nazgûl in purple dresses.

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    • That sounds vaguely familiar.

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    • One thing to rule them all,

      One thing to change them,

      One thing to power them all

      And subtly rearrange them

      In the land of South Pole, where the penguins fly.

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    • Of course, I don't know if there are penguin spirits. But I would forgive that Book a lot of its transgressions if there were.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I've explained multiple times that Dark Spirits are what happens when a Spirit gets angry & becomes unbalanced, people just...don't seem to want to believe it.

      It isn't simply just basic angriness at play in all circumstances. Influence and manipulation is clearly plays a large part in many of the dark spirits in book 2. Even the scene with the primitive fire benders versus Aye-aye and the other spirits is clearly using the negative influence of Vaatu along with the basic anger of the spirits. 

      Weren't those gopher-like spirits in episode 10 changed into that goo because of distress that Korra gave off? While they were angry that Korra tried to bend elements at them, the loss of emotional control on Korra's part exacerbated the situation, if we go by Jinora in that scene. Are we ignoring things like this?

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    • I'm not "ignoring" anything, I just don't have the time to sit here & write out a long explanation of every scene every time someone goes, "But why are there Dark Spirits when Vaatu isn't around?"

      You get the idea. Negative vibes makes Dark Spirits, Vaatu is sort of the patron deity of Dark Spirits, but they exist without him.

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    • Referring back to an earlier post, is it possible that there are different levels of spirit? So the larger/older spirits, like Wan Shi Tong and La and Old Iron, only have relatively minor changes to their exterior upon becoming angry (Hei Bai too, really; six-legged thing, but he could shift back and forth when he wanted), while the "newer" spirits, those less encrusted by time, can have all of their energy corrupted instead of just getting angry.

      Also, I wish to give kudos to Bumi for actually following in his father's footsteps (after a bit) and actually calming a dark spirit instead of tearing apart its ectoplasmic structure piece by piece. Now there's a man I can call the son of Avatar Aang and Master Katara.

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    • I think they just didn't think about it at all.

      Tenzin tried to calm a dark spirit and got blasted away. Just like his father.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I'm not "ignoring" anything, I just don't have the time to sit here & write out a long explanation of every scene every time someone goes, "But why are there Dark Spirits when Vaatu isn't around?"

      You get the idea. Negative vibes makes Dark Spirits, Vaatu is sort of the patron deity of Dark Spirits, but they exist without him.

      The blu-ray commentary in the episode confirms the idea that it's Vaatu's influence that turns the spirits when the clouds come together above the two forces and you see a glimpse of Vaatu in the clouds. I only have the blu-ray version so I'm not sure if the dvd has commentary on that episode.

      Again, while emotions of the spirit can help, the ability to turn dark runs along three major avenues in LoK: influence (Vaatu) and manipulation  through spirit bending (which also doesn't care about the emotional state) or a human's emotional state in the spirit world (and only seemingly when its Korra and if she's spiritual immature).

      @AV: There's also another kudos to Bumi. When we see spirit bending (which transforms the energies), we only see Korra or Unalaq use it to go from one extreme to another. Bumi's music at least attempts to balance that out, even if unintentional.

      There's also an odd problem with that leviathan. Has anyone wondered what happened to it? I mean, it's still a dark spirit and still potentially roaming around.

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    • At no point did I ever say that Vaatu can not turn Spirits Dark, I said they can still turn Dark without him. It isn't a hard concept.

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    • I'm just pointing out that it wasn't the anger that pushed the spirits in that scene to a dark spirit state. That's all. In fact, the emotional state of the spirit is not a real concern because the three major ways to form a dark spirits in LoK don't really care about state of the spirit. Are there any in LoK that turn dark on their own?

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    • In the actual dialogue of that scene, "Vaatu is using their anger to turn them to his side!"

      Anger is a reaction to a stimulus, so I don't know what "turn dark on their own" is even supposed to mean.

      Spirits are just "ectosympathetic." Their affective state is much more literally determined by the negative chi in the environment. As opposed to humans, who are more "endosympathetic," whose biology seeks to resist long term changes in their emotional state.

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    • It means turning dark without outside influence. How many spirits turned dark after Vaatu's deaath? And if they turn dark just by being angered, why Aye Aye and the other spirits only turned dark when Vaatu appeared and not before?

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    • An "outside influence" would be literally anything aside from the Spirit just randomly transforming for no causal reason.

      Because the whole point of that scene is to establish Vaatu's power to corrupt & take control of Spirits.

      But we have OTHER scenes that PROVE he's not necessary, chiefly "Iroh's Tea Party," during which NEITHER Vaatu NOR Unalaq were present.

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    • Yes, anything aside from the spirits turning dark by being angry like you said.

      I'm not gonna go over how they don't look like dark spirits in that scene because we already been through that, but instead, have they become dark spirits without Vaatu's existence? There wasn't dark spirits when he was bound to Raava nor after his "death". His existence seems to be what allows them to turn into dark spirits, anger being just a way to become unbalanced.

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    • There were Dark Spirits in the game, which according to Mike & Bryan, can fit into the overall continuity (even if they were non-committal about whether or not it actually DOES).

      If you don't consider that good enough, okay, but either way, I gave an answer, so now I want to know if you can establish that Vaatu is causing something when he's not even around, as opposed to the event simply being unrelated to Vaatu.

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    • I think that The Last Aibender was MUCH better than The Legend of Korra, although I would like another avatar, both fire and earth

      I like Aang much better.


      I thing that the first Team Avatar was better (Gaang)

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    • I would question if the game is actually canon, since Korra didn't see Hundun when she  saw her enemies or no one in the show seemed to mention him. I guess we can overlook this and go to him earthbending and shooting dark spirits from his hands.

      Well, there wasn't any dark spirits before Wan broke him free, and after being locked in the tree the dark spirits are either close to him and the portals or being controled by Unalaq. To be fair, after Korra opened the first portal and discovered his plan, there is a dark spirit attack that doesn't seem to have anything to do with Vaatu or Unalaq, the bat spirits in the Air Temple. Not that i was making a point about him creating and controlling all the dark spirits, just that what allows them to turn into dark spirits is his energy. Energy that Raava kept in check and then was sealed but still could affect spirits close to the portals. Since he is the spirit of darkness, without him around even if the spirits are angered they will be just angry, not DS.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      In the actual dialogue of that scene, "Vaatu is using their anger to turn them to his side!"

      Anger is a reaction to a stimulus, so I don't know what "turn dark on their own" is even supposed to mean.

      Spirits are just "ectosympathetic." Their affective state is much more literally determined by the negative chi in the environment. As opposed to humans, who are more "endosympathetic," whose biology seeks to resist long term changes in their emotional state.

      How does that line actually change anything? As I've said several times before, the idea that there's an extra element, or trigger, of influence or manipulation to shift the spirit to a dark spirit and it's still evident from that line. Literally, in this case as we have the actually manipulator, Vaatu, being the trigger. As the spirit of Yin (negative energy), an unfettered Vaatu in Beginnings does quite a bit.

      I'm not saying Vaatu is needed everytime. I've mentioned it several times in rebuttals in this thread, and if you look up, you'll notice that I bring up spirit bending (which see Unalaq and Korra use) and the idea of the spirit world being an indicator of change based upon human emotion. Do we see Vaatu doing that? No, it's spiritually immature Korra. 

      @SaitamaBro: How really knows about Hundun. He's simular to Iroh with the idea of leaving the physical world behind so there's the element that his emotional state could make up some dark spirits. Hundun's whole chaos ability is also a bit odd so who really knows?

      Unalaq would have had to have some idea of Vaatu before getting Korra to open the portal in the South Pole but there's alot of grey area with that relationship. There's some implication that Unalaq might have been working with Vaatu when he was playing the Red Lotus prior to LoK book 1. In the art book, there was some development about Unalaq using spirit bending to have spirits go back into the north pole after Tonraq's destruction of the area during the flashback.

      Did Unalaq actually invent spirit bending? I doubt it so, with a roughly 10,000 year gap between Wan and Korra, quite a bit can happen. The dark spirit bats, for example, were simply locked away so who knows who or what put them there. 

      There's certainly enough that could have bene done better with book 2 and the whole dark spirit thing. 

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I guess I should stop avoiding this thread....

      My base impression is that Avatar is, overall, a more consistent story, but I do question that to an extent, because I have not seen it criticized anywhere near the extent that I have its sequel. I already know of at least a few things that "Legend of Korra" gets ripped apart for which are always ignored in Avatar, such as the tendency for the Avatar to not win without a last minute save from a Deus Ex Machina.

      The characters are sort of a mixed bag. I vastly prefer Korra to Aang (& Korra's love interest to Aang's, for that matter), but of the supporting cast, there aren't many that I'm enormously interested in, whereas I'm very fond of Toph, Sokka, & Zuko. Moving to villains, my favorites would have to be Amon, Azula, & Ty Lee.

      Despite being a sequel, the setting of "Legend of Korra" is counter-intuitively more original. I can sum up Avatar's setting in 5 words: "Feudal Asia with steampunk elements." Even if you come up with a similar thing for Korra, such as "Roaring 20's Asia with magic," how many times has the Roaring 20's even been used as a fantasy setting? I can think of Fullmetal Alchemist, Bioshock Infinite, I've heard that Boccano! is, &...that's pretty much it. "Legend of Korra" also got rid of the Countries of Hats sort of thing, where the countries arbitrarily had certain themes & there was little to no mixing between them. I forget who put it this way, but someone once described Avatar as "Some water people help an air person get to the north pole while protecting him from fire people." You can't really sum up the political situation in "Korra" so simply.

      One nice thing about the Big Bad Per Season format is that we got a pretty nice rotation of plots. I can say that the Equalist Rebellion & the Red Lotus were some of my favorite story arcs in the franchise's history.

      Right now, I'm inclined to say that I enjoy "Legend of Korra" a bit more. Maybe I've just seen Avatar too many times, maybe I'm tired of it being overhyped, or maybe I'll look back some time & conclude that the sequel actually IS better. Iunno.


      Pretty much agree with all of this. Just like you, a large part of the reason why I enjoyed The Legend of Korra more than ATLA overall (despite the latter being better written consistently) is that I was far more invested in Korra as a character than I ever was with Aang. He is definitely not a bad character by any means but I found him to be too much of the classical "reluctant hero" for my tastes. Definitely not a bad character and I enjoyed ATLA immensely, but I was more invested in the other characters in that show (Zuko, Azula, Toph, Katara) in general.

      I do also agree that people tend to criticize TLoK (and Korra as a character really) for EVERY little nitpick but won't do the same for ATLA despite some of the same critiques often leveled at TLoK could just as easily apply to ATLA as well. But that's another rant...

      They're both awesome shows and despite some writing hang ups and pacing issues here and there, I just loved Korra's growth throughout the story (from "brash warrior to spiritual being" to quote Bryke) and I have always been interested in the spiritual aspects of the Avatarverse in general and felt that the sequel had the opportunity to explore that side a bit more (and I hope the comics continue to explore the spiritual matters more). I'm a sucker for the sort of man vs spirit conflicts (spirituality/nature vs technology/human innovation) and settings so the Legend of Korra resonated with me more. It's the same reason why I love Princess Mononoke out of all the Studio Ghibli films I've seen. Just my two cents really.

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    • 1. Original, by far, without question for me. 

      2. Aang, by far, without question for me. 

      3. ATLA Team Avatar, by far, without question for me. 

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    • Eh, since this has been bumped, I'll say I prefer A: tLA to TLoK, if only by a fairly slight margin. 

      IMO, A: tLA has slightly better characterization overall, tighter storytelling, a more epic feel to its fight scenes, and a bit more of a sense of adventure to it. TLoK has more complex and mature storylines, better animation, and better fight choreography.

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    • D-Bunk'd wrote:
      Eh, since this has been bumped, I'll say I prefer A: tLA to TLoK, if only by a fairly slight margin. 

      IMO, A: tLA has slightly better characterization overall, tighter storytelling, a more epic feel to its fight scenes, and a bit more of a sense of adventure to it. TLoK has more complex and mature storylines, better animation, and better fight choreography.

      And better music.  Doesn't make up for the short-arc format being a pain in the ass.  And the inclusion of a love polygon—especially in the briefest and already most disjointed book in the series—was a bad idea to rival Mako in that same book.

      In summary: agreed.

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    • Eh, no, not in my opinion. Books 2 and 3 of Korra had very good music-2's was excellent, I thought-and 1 and 4's were alright, with the exception of the villains' themes and Korra's.

      ATLA's music is stuck in my mind forever, and that's a good thing. Agreed on everything else.

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    • The weird thing is that we don't really ever hear Jeremy Zuckerman talk about his own work, but Mike & Bryan mention it a lot, & I think they made a really insightful comment about the shift in music between Avatar & Korra. It went something to the effect that, in Legend of Korra, Zuckerman was able to take things he learned from the original series but also had more instruments & a broader range of styles he could apply to it, which made for a lot of tracks that wouldn't have been possible before.

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    • The original show was btter, but Korradid things I like better... too bad for the pacing. I don't know why they were given so much more freedom, time, and money for their first series than they got for their second.

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    • Oh, and even though I like LOK very nearly as much as the original, I'm tired of people comparing Mako to Zuko. They really aren't that similiar, and Zuko is the better character, by a great deal.

      In general, I'll say ATLA, but again, not by that much. I think LOK's villains are in general better-particularly the Red Lotus-although I loved Zuko,Koh,Long Feng and loved to hate Ozai,Azula and Zhao.

      I was more invested in Korra then Aang, but prefer Aang's team overall. The world building was done better in the original, I feel that is one of the least subjective points here.

      LOK dealt with darker character themes, and slightly darker world themes, but remember ATLA could be pretty dark too. Remember Ba Sing Se? Hard parental abuse, child soldiers, the bloody Air Nomad Genocide, bloodbending?

      So yeah. Those are my thoughts.

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    • The original show was btter, but Korradid things I like better... too bad for the pacing. I don't know why they were given so much more freedom, time, and money for their first series than they got for their second.

      This might be how I describe my own views, I'm not sure. Did they really have so much more for the original series? Money sounds plausible, with all of those budget cuts we heard about, but they were given enough freedom to be sole writers on their 1st season.

      Oh, and even though I like LOK very nearly as much as the original, I'm tired of people comparing Mako to Zuko. They really aren't that similiar, and Zuko is the better character, by a great deal.

      Yeah, I'm not really sure where that comes from. They're both firebenders & real jerks when they start out, but other than that, they're not all that similar.

      In general, I'll say ATLA, but again, not by that much. I think LOK's villains are in general better-particularly the Red Lotus-although I loved Zuko,Koh,Long Feng and loved to hate Ozai,Azula and Zhao.

      I feel the sequel villains are more relatable. Everyone in the original series is for the most part just kind of playing follow the leader. Why is Zhao doing all of this stuff? To please the Fire Lord & get promoted. Why is Ozai doing it in the first place? Well, that's what his father & grandfather before him did. The major exception to that is Long Feng, & he's just kind of power hungry. They're still fun to watch, but nobody's sitting around asking, "Hmm, did Ozai have a point?" Even when we don't get a lot of information on their backgrounds, like with the Red Lotus, there's still a sense that they have a cause they believe in, they're not just following someone else's orders.

      The world building was done better in the original, I feel that is one of the least subjective points here.

      You think so? It certainly did set up the basic premise, show all of the nations, & so on, but I think there was a lot in Legend of Korra too. The Spirit World, the Red Lotus, the origin of the Avatar, & so on.

      LOK dealt with darker character themes, and slightly darker world themes, but remember ATLA could be pretty dark too. Remember Ba Sing Se? Hard parental abuse, child soldiers, the bloody Air Nomad Genocide, bloodbending?

      I think a lot of what it comes down to is that the darker themes feel more immediate & present in Legend of Korra. The Air Nomad genocide exists, but they don't talk about it a lot. The worst stuff was kind of off in the background, it wasn't like in Legend of Korra where you see the protagonist get poisoned directly, you see Tarrlok's murder-suicide, & so forth.

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    • The original series had several things that Korra lacked in some measure: consistency, coherency, strong pacing, resolve, and three-dimensional characters.

      Which is why A:TLA is far and wide the more favorable series.

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    • Seeing as there was a sizeable hatedom from Day 1 if not before, which has been referenced a few times in this thread, I'm going to say you're forgetting bias. Seriously, "resolve"? What is that even supposed to mean?

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote: Seeing as there was a sizeable hatedom from Day 1 if not before, which has been referenced a few times in this thread, I'm going to say you're forgetting bias. Seriously, "resolve"? What is that even supposed to mean?

      Maybe resolution is a better word. A:TLA had a clearer and more well defined course than LoK. LoK, of course, was renewed for three seasons it wasn't originally planning to produce, so it was more fluctuant in that department. And that's all I mean by resolve. A:TLA had more surety in its pacing and its plot because it was more nurtured than LoK. So monetary, marketing, etc. drawbacks aside, A:TLA was a stronger show, in my opinion.

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    • Why does it have to be one or the other? I, for my part, like both shows equally. Both have their respective strengths and weaknesses, many of which have already been discussed here and in other threads. But overall I don't have a preference between one or the other.

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    • The last air bender, mostly because of Momo and Toph.

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    • dragon of the mother fucking west nuff said

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    • An anonymous contributor
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