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  • I personally think Raiko wanted to execute her along with Desna and Eska and maybe Tonraq unless he's still greatful for her saving him. Tenzin, Izumi, Korra and whoever was the Earth whatever it became (I hope the new name is 'Earth union') who was probably Wu at the time believed she should live and be sentenced to life imprisonment. but what do you guys think?

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    • Regarding Kuvira, I'll copy-and-paste what I said on another thread:

      If they execute her, the Earth Nation will erupt into chaos. Again. Unlike in WWII when we were executing Nazi war criminals, the Earth Empire was never conquered - it still exists, and I doubt all of Kuvira's army was present when she attacked Republic City. Killing her would be to ignite another powderkeg - one maybe as bad as the assassination of Hou-Ting. 

      If anything, she'll get life in prison. Then again, many of the lesser Nazi war criminals (many of which were at the very least culpable to worse crimes than the ones she committed), barely served out a decade of their sentence before being released. Admittedly, many of these men were quite old by the time the war ended and it was decided to release some due to serious health problems, but others were released to gain favor with the newly created West Germany.

      I doubt he wants to execute the twins and Korra's father. Even if he wanted to, he'd essentially be trying to have the heads of state of both the Nothern and Southern Water Tribes tried and executed. Which would be one Hell of an international incident. 

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    • Life in a non-earthen, all-platinum or metal-less prison.

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    • They brought in the wonderful people of Chin Village ... the verdict?

      "Eaten by bears!"

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    • Nonono - the verdict has to be ironic with a poetic flare to it!

      "Eaten by badgermoles!"

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    • On the part of the Empire:

      Empire destroyed. The Earth Nation is torn to pieces. Now there is a independent and miserable state. Or union whose existence is dedicated to two goals: the destruction of what remains of the forces of the nation and facilitate foreign businessmen and businesswomen capture resources and production facilities. Cowards and traitors are declared heroes. Heroes are declared villains. Force was replaced by a weakness. Unity was replaced by disunity. Kuvira's nightmare has now become a reality. Come up with the worst punishment is not possible.

      On the part of the Republic:

      While Kuvira is alive there is a risk the recovery of strength and greatness of the Earth Nation. This inflict heavy damage to the economic interests of the Republic. Besides a strong and united the Earth Nation by default is a threat for the Republic. But to kill her then make her martyr. Although all the good characters except Korra agree with the idea to kill Kuvira. The optimal option is to poison her in jail and said that she had died from the disease. Or hang it and say that she hung herself.

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    • If Desna and Eska get to rule the Northern Water Tribe, Kuvira should become president of the world. They were the right and left hand of Unalaq as he unleashed Vaatu on the world. Not only did they not see prison time for being high ranking actors in the Water Tribe Civil War and they also facilitated that business with the dark spirits, but they became leaders of the nation? If that's how things work in their world, Kuvira should be free and expecting some cushy high ranking position. Death penalty/life imprisonment? Hah!

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    • Difference being, D&E were obviously kept in the dark about their father's ultimate plans, and upon discovering them, disavowed and abandoned him. That is a bid difference from Kuvira's arc.

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    • Desna & Eska are rather terrible candidates for being the heads of state of the Northern Water Tribe, but hey, you can't win 'em all.

      I guarantee Kuvira got life in prison. I think she should be executed, but too many powerful people have sentimental attachment to her to let that happen.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Desna & Eska are rather terrible candidates for being the heads of state of the Northern Water Tribe, but hey, you can't win 'em all.

      I guarantee Kuvira got life in prison. I think she should be executed, but too many powerful people have sentimental attachment to her to let that happen.

      But they have no democracy such as in the Republic.The world community is obligated to intervene! Captain Republic also known as Avatar Korra must fly to the aid of the oppressed people of Northern Water Tribe and Fire Nation!

      All the good characters except Korra agree with the idea to kill Kuvira. Some have tried to kill her own, including a surprise attack. Kuvira never allowed herself unfair fight. Unlike Suyin, Kuvira has the honor of an officer. Others simply felt it was good and right. But Korra is not spared Kuvira but herself. At its core, this is the usual selfishness.

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    • Hey, if they did not kill the most powerful and dangerous benders who tried to kidnap infant Korra, they'll prolly not kill Kuvira.

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    • Love Robin wrote:
      Hey, if they did not kill the most powerful and dangerous benders who tried to kidnap infant Korra, they'll prolly not kill Kuvira.

      Of course they will not kill her. She would die from a serious illness or hanged himself in his cell. At least this is "official version" of her death.

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    • Integer115 wrote:

      Love Robin wrote:
      Hey, if they did not kill the most powerful and dangerous benders who tried to kidnap infant Korra, they'll prolly not kill Kuvira.

      Of course they will not kill her. She would die from a serious illness or hanged himself in his cell. At least this is "official version" of her death.

      Not a very wise thing to do, for such prisoners have a way of escaping or otherwise "coming back from the dead", and that would just engender distrust of the government.

      Best to simply lock her away and say nothing more. She'll soon enough be forgotten by the public masses. Yes, her actions will still be remembered, but *she* will be forgotten.

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    • Love Robin wrote:

      Not a very wise thing to do, for such prisoners have a way of escaping or otherwise "coming back from the dead", and that would just engender distrust of the government.

      Best to simply lock her away and say nothing more. She'll soon enough be forgotten by the public masses. Yes, her actions will still be remembered, but *she* will be forgotten.

      In fact, it often works.

      Living or dead, she is a symbol. And if for some reason she will be escape from prison then a revival of the empire will be inevitable. Maybe for a very short period.

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    • All the good characters except Korra agree with the idea to kill Kuvira. Some have tried to kill her own, including a surprise attack. Kuvira never allowed herself unfair fight. Unlike Suyin, Kuvira has the honor of an officer. Others simply felt it was good and right. But Korra is not spared Kuvira but herself. At its core, this is the usual selfishness.

      I don't think anything would cause you to second-guess Kuvira.

      Love Robin wrote: Hey, if they did not kill the most powerful and dangerous benders who tried to kidnap infant Korra, they'll prolly not kill Kuvira.

      The reason they didn't do that was because they wanted information. i don't know why they let Zaheer live, maybe they want him to tell them the location of the rest of the Red Lotus agents. Though, as mentioned previously, I do agree that they likely won't kill Kuvira. Even though they totally should, because she's basically as bad as Unalaq, just less willing to admit it.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      The reason they didn't do that was because they wanted information. i don't know why they let Zaheer live, maybe they want him to tell them the location of the rest of the Red Lotus agents. Though, as mentioned previously, I do agree that they likely won't kill Kuvira. Even though they totally should, because she's basically as bad as Unalaq, just less willing to admit it.

      The man who wants to throw the world into ten thousand years of darkness and the women who took out his nation out of the coffin. Yes, they are identical :)

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    • Wow, so many people calling for the death penalty. I'm actually surprised by that. 

      Her crimes don't warrant execution, in my opinion.

      Starting a war of conquest over territorial claims and colonial subjugation? If that were reason enough, then that means several hundred world leaders (past and present) deserve execution - including various U.S. Presidents - Polk, Lincoln, McKinley, T. Roosevelt, etc. That's not even including the darker actions taken by U.S. Presidents during the Cold War. 

      Interning people she couldn't trust in camps? It's a horribe crime that definitely deserves prison time, but execution? I don't know. May as well execute Franklin Roosevelt too. Same with Andrew Jackson (which is actually debatable), and any other President that was in office during westward expansion (including Lincoln). 

      Superweapons? Let's execute FDR and Harry S. Truman too. And all the heads of state of the United States, Russia, China, France, the UK, India, Pakistan, any NATO/Soviet-aligned nation that hosted nukes, Israel (they almost certainly have nukes), and (maybe) North Korea.

      Iran wants nukes; let's execute their heads of state too. 

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    • Well, Zeta, I'm sure some of those actions absolutely WOULD have resulted in some executions, if someone came along who had the power & motive to prosecute them for it.

      Integer115 wrote:

      Neo Bahamut wrote:

      The reason they didn't do that was because they wanted information. i don't know why they let Zaheer live, maybe they want him to tell them the location of the rest of the Red Lotus agents. Though, as mentioned previously, I do agree that they likely won't kill Kuvira. Even though they totally should, because she's basically as bad as Unalaq, just less willing to admit it.

      The man who wants to throw the world into ten thousand years of darkness and the women who took out his nation out of the coffin. Yes, they are identical :)

      Unalaq also spouted crap about uniting the Water Tribe to justify his narcissistic, manipulative, power-grubbing backstabbing, the difference is that you buy into Kuvira's nonsense, while I don't buy into either of their paper thin rationalizations.

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    • Well, don't give Unalaq's "reunification" agendas too much credit either. I highly doubt they were very important to him *other* than as a means to an end to achieve his goals. Motivating people to do what you want by selling them on what *they think they want* is just basic Villainy 101. Selling the NWT on sailing on the SWT helped back his plays while keeping everyone including the avatar looking *right* while he was moving *left*.

      Sleight of hand diversionary tactics.

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    • Unalaq didn't give a damn about the people of the South; he was using it as a pretext to gain control over the Southern Spirit Portal. That much is obvious, considering that he was willing to more or less destroy the world for Vaatu. 

      And yes, it made for a good international incident to distract everyone. I'll give the man credit for that.

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    • Even more impressive if that's what he was going for. I was suggesting that they were both using a thin coating of rhetoric to justify & rationalize what they were doing.

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    • By Book 4, I think it was more about the idea of the Earth Nation for Kuvira than it was about the people. I'm sure at the beginning of her quest to rebuild the country she was doing it for the right reasons, but the power, stress, and chaos probably warped her into the person she was when she refused to hand over power. Starting the Avatar equivalent of World War II by attacking the URN was too much of a gamble for any sane person to act on; her Zaku and experience of beating the Avatar (be sheer luck) probably inflated her ego to the point where she thought she could take on the world and win. 

      The best comparison I can find to this in western society would be Napoleon Bonaparte. 

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    • If it were anime suyin would put her to tentacle rape,but I think the avatar might take on an intercession for her safety....... As in because the innocence of her own self image potraied in kuvira but banned from enterring republic city cus of society hatred towards kuvira. But I think she deserves tentacle rape....

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    • Oh, *everyone* deserves the specialness which is tentacle rape. No doubt. [thumbs up]

      "She fell into a vat of tentacles and died while being raped to death."
      "That's horrible! She didn't have a chance."
      "Well, except for the four times she climbed out to go to the bathroom…"
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    • ... What. 

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    • And yet I am very happy to see how people who claim that the cruelty and violence is bad with such pleasure relish the idea of the most brutal violence against the person that they do not like.

      With regard to the extremely weak attempts to condemn the activities of Kuvira. Then I obviously have to start talking platitudes: bread no grows on trees.

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    • I said execution, you really think that's the most brutal thing I could come up with? Besides, I never suggested that there was no such thing as justifiable homicide, so that's a non-point.

      "Extremely weak attempts" my ass, I can literally just neutrally state a few things she did--started prison camps, attacked the URN without declaring war, canceled the agreement she made to step down--& the implications speak for themselves. You're the one who has to twist yourself into knots explaining why it "had to be done."

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    • So you want me to continue to speak platitudes. Okay:

      Banality №1: insurgents must be destroyed in order not to lose the country. But Kuvira chose a much more humane way to solve the problem.

      Banality №2: the fifth column should clean up from the first to the last man. Leave at least one and a week later they will have a dozen.

      Banality №3: Republic leader did enough to Empire considered Republic only as an enemy. And the Empire had the opportunity to make a preemptive strike. And more than any special reasons is not needed. Although a lot of other reasons.

      Banality №4: The leader of one state in principle, by definition, nothing may be required to leaders of other state. For Real. National interests are always matter more. The only exception to this rule is a puppet government. But Kuvira refused to dance to the tune of Raiko.

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    • No, that wasn't an invitation to make more excuses. Try this, name as many things as you can that would cause you to second guess Kuvira's actions.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      No, that wasn't an invitation to make more excuses. Try this, name as many things as you can that would cause you to second guess Kuvira's actions.

      I do not know exactly what you want. My opinion: she did everything that had to do. Was exactly one bad thing - sending all fire/waterbenders in the camp. But I do not know whether this solution would be wrong. With regard to the Republic, yes Avatar is invulnerable. This was an unforeseen event.

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    • She committed Treason.

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    • Love Robin wrote:
      She committed Treason.

      You could just as well argue Wu committed treason by aiding the enemy during the invasion of Republic City, which was being launched by the Earth Nation. 

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    • CommanderZeta wrote:

      Love Robin wrote:
      She committed Treason.

      You could just as well argue Wu committed treason by aiding the enemy during the invasion of Republic City, which was being launched by the Earth Nation. 

      No.

      Prince Wu is the rightful—and coronated—ruler of the Earth Kingdom. Whatever *he* decided was *his to decide*. Kuvira not only did not step down from her duties as she had been tasked to do, she STOLE the entirety of the Earth Kingdom to announce the formation of an "Earth Empire", which meant she was also declaring *herself* as Earth Empress. That is called a coup, and is treason to the Throne and Crown Family.

      Not to mention hypocritical. She wanted to recoup the lands LEGALLY annexed to the UR by the properly recognized Crown Monarchy of the time, YET she *stole ALL* of the EK lands to be her Empire. Hypocracy utmost.

      To put this into perspective, suppose any famous US general in the course of their duties decided to NOT stand down to their President, but instead declare the formation of ALL American territories as an "American Empire" with themselves in charge.

      Treason.

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    • Love Robin wrote:

      No.

      Prince Wu is the rightful—and coronated—ruler of the Earth Kingdom. Whatever *he* decided was *his to decide*. Kuvira not only did not step down from her duties as she had been tasked to do, she STOLE the entirety of the Earth Kingdom to announce the formation of an "Earth Empire", which meant she was also declaring *herself* as Earth Empress. That is called a coup, and is treason to the Throne and Crown Family.

      Not to mention hypocritical. She wanted to recoup the lands LEGALLY annexed to the UR by the properly recognized Crown Monarchy of the time, YET she *stole ALL* of the EK lands to be her Empire. Hypocracy utmost.

      To put this into perspective, suppose any famous US general in the course of their duties decided to NOT stand down to their President, but instead declare the formation of ALL American territories as an "American Empire" with themselves in charge.

      Treason.

      You keep me laugh. Thank you for this.

      Monarchy died with the state. And Kuvira has created a new state for themselves. Yes, she was willing to share their power. Power that she has created. But when she learned of intentions of foreign leaders she's plans changed. This is another platitude. I repeat: there is only one legitimate authority - the one that has the power to. All rights written on paper in politics are worth less than the paper itself. The real power in this idiot was less than his badgermole. 

      The legitimacy of the annexation is determined only by its success or failure.

      Your example has just two serious errors. The first - not corresponding to the initial conditions. The second - ignoring the principle of power.

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    • Legitimacy and royal blood doesn't mean shit if you lose. It didn't save the Bourbons from the guillotine, and the French monarchy was just as unpopular as the Earth Kingdom. You know why Wu was hiding out in Republic City? Apparently, it was too dangerous for him to live in his own kingdom - even places where order had already been restored by Kuvira. Every monarch for the Earth Kingdom we've seen has either been weak, deluded, oppressive, tyrannical, or some combination of those factors; it's not hard to see why he's hated in his own country. That's not factoring in his opulent lifestyle, dismissive attitude of the state of his nation, his inflated ego, and any other factors that make him unappealing to a nation that has just been gripped by three years of chaos and civil war. 

      Also, the Earth Kingdom of LoK did not recognize the sovereignty of the United Republic of Nations. Kuei signed the provinces away to avoid restarting the war, meaning he failed to regain land that had historically been part of the Earth Nation. While it was a legitimate and legal transaction that I agree with wholeheartedly, it doesn't change the fact that the Earth Kingdom - which won the war - lost land to the Fire Nation colonists, which Avatar Aang sided with. It was the best choice of a shitty situation, but the Earth Kingdom was humilated by the treaty. 

      Hou-Ting, as you'll remember, outright stated that Republic City was built on Earth Nation land and that she had intentions to build an army to retake it. This means that the Earth Kingdom - ruled by Hou-Ting - did not recognize the United Republic of Nations as a country. Would Kuvira have reversed this stance had the Earth Empire been recognzied as the government of the Earth Nation? Maybe she would have, since her nation that she built from the ground up would be considered an equal member of the international community. Or maybe she wouldn't have, and would have broken her agreements with Republic City to take the city by force.

      As a general rule, when nations that refuse to acknowledge the others' right to exist, relations are inherently hostile. It's to be expected.  

      Whether you like it or not, the Earth Empire was the reigning state that ruled over the Earth Nation. During the Napoleonic Wars, none of the nations aligned against Napoleon considered the First French Empire to be the legitimate government of France, even though more people approved of Napoleon and his Empire than they did of the Bourbon dynasty that drove France into the ground. Doesn't change the fact that it is now considered the legitimate government of France from 1804-1815 (excluding the first Bourbon restoration in 1814), and that Napoleon is still a national hero in France. 

      Much like how Hou-Ting was driving the Earth Nation into the ground, and making the monarchy unpopular both domestically and internationally. Raiko trying to put Wu on the throne was just like the Coalitions' attempts to overthrow Napoleon and place Louis XVI's cousin back on the French throne.

      That depends; are we handing the government over to a weak-willed, spoiled brat who has no idea how to run a country, who is actively being supported by say... the People's Republic of China or the Russian Federtion? Then yes, I'd rather go with the American general who would actually have the interests of the United States at heart. 

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    • Love Robin wrote:

      No.

      Prince Wu is the rightful—and coronated—ruler of the Earth Kingdom. Whatever *he* decided was *his to decide*. Kuvira not only did not step down from her duties as she had been tasked to do, she STOLE the entirety of the Earth Kingdom to announce the formation of an "Earth Empire", which meant she was also declaring *herself* as Earth Empress. That is called a coup, and is treason to the Throne and Crown Family.

      Not to mention hypocritical. She wanted to recoup the lands LEGALLY annexed to the UR by the properly recognized Crown Monarchy of the time, YET she *stole ALL* of the EK lands to be her Empire. Hypocracy utmost.

      To put this into perspective, suppose any famous US general in the course of their duties decided to NOT stand down to their President, but instead declare the formation of ALL American territories as an "American Empire" with themselves in charge.

      Treason.

      This isn't really URN's call, she's defeated by them and their prisoner. Wu could very easily be considered betraying his country to begin with by allowing a foriegn power so much influence in their national policy. Kuvira did make a coup d'etat, but at the same time, she seemed rather popular in so doing. If the people don't want that monarchy, who's really the traitor? Sure, Kuvira rationalized what she was doing, but, she rejected Wu's leadership based upon fundamental problems with the monarchy, which leads into the next point...the monarchy giving away rights to large tracts of land.

      Not sure the "legality" was what was important, so much as what was "rightfully" theirs. Someone murders a person's brother, the killed person's sister wants revenge, to murder the killer. This (in most countries) isn't legal, but could be argued to be "right" or "just." Some would agree this is justice, others might not. Agree or disagree with Kuvira on this, but it's not hypocritical of her. She's the new head of state of the entity that is the Earth Nation, she's not stealing from the people, in fact she's working on reacquiring what was historically their birthright. According to Kuvira (which, I'd say we don't have much reason to doubt her intent, given her heart to heart with Korra in the finale), she's doing it for the common good of her people. Again, agree or disagree with her in practice on whether or not it's a sound course of action...but, she believes she's doing it for the people, not herself.

      Okay, if we want to talk analogies/parallels to real life, you mention a US general, well, let me remind you, the American Revolution was stealing from Britain and only a minority actually wanted to revolt. In many ways, the American Revolution was just like that. Many people even wanted George Washington to become a king. ("But that's different!" Right? >.>)

      But okay, let's call it treason, but with this in mind, is treason always so bad?

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    • "History is written by the winners"

      But seriously, no matter if a New Government is *better* or *worse*, the incumbent power is what calls it treason or not. America may even *side* with those attempting a coup, but it *is still* treason. You just better make sure you *win* if you want to keep your heads.

      Regardless of what Kuvira's initial motivations were, she went too far.

      As for people wanting to make Washington "King", let's just look at that statement: The PEOPLE wanted him in charge. He did not ask for it. He was a general and wanted to go back to his simple life. He mainly acquiesced because he recognized the people felt his job was yet to be finished.

      You can try to romanticize Kuvira and her actions, but truth is she went too far. Way past her instructions. She performed a coup. That is treason.

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    • But seriously, no matter if a New Government is *better* or *worse*, the incumbent power is what calls it treason or not. America may even *side* with those attempting a coup, but it *is still* treason. You just better make sure you *win* if you want to keep your heads.

      Obviously. Treason is subjective, depending on who you talk to and what the circumstance is. 

      Regardless of what Kuvira's initial motivations were, she went too far.

      Agreed; however, I get the feeling that "too far" means different things for either of us.

      I believe she went "too far" at the moment when we started hearing about the internment/reeducation camps. For a nation reeling from civil war and inherently distrustful of foreigners, I'm not exactly surprised that something like this happened, but I don't understand the rationale behind locking up both Fire Nation and Water Tribe citizens/nationals. It seems too much like it was shoe-horned in to make her more villainous - especially considering that the Water Tribes were the Earth Kingdom's only allies in the HYR, and that neither tribe was (shown to be) involved in the reunification of the Earth Nation. There's no reason that I can think of for anti-WT sentiment. 

      I believe the creation of superweapons (which I don't particularly care about) and her intent to attack Republic City came later.

      So yes, she should be imprisoned for the internment camps and her attempt to start World War II. 

      As for people wanting to make Washington "King", let's just look at that statement: The PEOPLE wanted him in charge. He did not ask for it. He was a general and wanted to go back to his simple life. He mainly acquiesced because he recognized the people felt his job was yet to be finished.

      For Christ's sake, it's like everyone seems to forget something key to the creation of the Earth Empire - how on earth did she amass such a large army, one that was well-equipped and willing to start a world war on her orders? Judging by how quickly the country was reunited, that means that she was able to quell revolts and establish order quickly. It seems very likely that a lot of the people in the Earth Nation went along willingly with her.

      You can try to romanticize Kuvira and her actions, but truth is she went too far. Way past her instructions. She performed a coup. That is treason.

      I am not romanticizing her. There's nothing idyllic about handing complete authority over your country to spoiled imbecile who requires advisors - Raiko's advisors - to run government for him. Considering that she was more-or-less the regent of the Earth Kingdom, I'd say that she was the government of the Earth Nation. So what, she was committing treason against herself? She'd be committing treason by handing the country over to Raiko and Wu. 

      This is realpolitik, not political idealism. 

      The Founding Fathers committed treason against the Kingdom of Great Britain, and I'm glad they did.

      Louis XVI willingly fled the Kingdom of France to the Austrian Netherlands (Belgium) following the early stages of the French Revolution, hoping to appeal to his wife's family (the Hapsburgs) so that an international coalition could be put together to crush the will of the people. He was hoping the reactionary European powers would crush his own countrymen so that he could regain his authority over the nation, away from France's first attempt at a constitutional monarchy. 

      He was caught, tried for treason against his own country, and executed.

      While Wu doesn't deserve such a fate, the circumstances sound very similar - which would imply that they're trying to force the monarchy down the peoples' throats. 

      So yes, a coup-d'etat to rest power away from the puppet of a foreign power was the right thing to do. 

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    • Executing her would probably not be a good idea since her forces would still be at large and would simply continue to advance on the United Republic since her orders would no longer apply after her death. And most likely would there are some eager officers in her army who would simply take her place and continue the conquest.

      After her trial, where she admitted her doings but still insisted to have been in the right, Korra would take her bending away and she'd be imprisoned on a remote island. Since I've always got an Napoleon feel from her I think a punishmenet that mirrors his would be fitting.

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    • I couldn't really see execution for Kuvira in the Avatar universe. The defense would simply add in the fact that she did restore order and all the good she did. They could just ask the judge/judges that they should simply remember that when deciding a punishment. Prison seems to be the norm for just about everyone, no matter the crime. Even Zaheer performing murder and causing the huge chaotic period for the next three years just got an underground cell.

      Too bad there's no chi blocking bloodbender to take away bending, i'd imagine that would be quite a way to keep alot of these guys under wraps. It's also too bad Korra decided never to learn that technique Aang used, but she was never spiritual enough to contact the other Avatars without serious help. 

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    • "History is written by the winners"

      Effectively, it is in a world. Though, in this fiction, we're an outside entity with an external perspective...and we're not killed by the events of war or by being the losers. It is a little unique from how that works in our world in that respect.

      But seriously, no matter if a New Government is *better* or *worse*, the incumbent power is what calls it treason or not. America may even *side* with those attempting a coup, but it *is still* treason. You just better make sure you *win* if you want to keep your heads.

      Why? And if we go by "History is written by the winners." Who gives a shit what the old Earth Kingdom government in exile thinks? Well, aside from the URN that benefits from maintaining that the EKiE government is the rightful ruler. They were effectively ousted until the finale of this season.

      I guess it does come down to a matter of perspective, are they insurgents or are they patriots?

      Regardless of what Kuvira's initial motivations were, she went too far.

      In your opinion, fair enough. In others'? Maybe not so much. But again, where's the line? Let the officials arrest the murderer and give them a trial and maybe throw them in prison for X number of years? Or is hunting down the murderer and killing them in turn fair game? Depends on who you talk to.

      As for people wanting to make Washington "King", let's just look at that statement: The PEOPLE wanted him in charge. He did not ask for it. He was a general and wanted to go back to his simple life. He mainly acquiesced because he recognized the people felt his job was yet to be finished.

      Did the PEOPLE want Wu or his family as their king? Kuvira had a pretty powerful following by the time she declared the Earth Empire a soveriegn nation. Many still followed her and aside from a few detractors that had vested interests in Kuvira not being in power, we don't really see much to indicate that she was unpopular. While it would have been nice to get a better picture of how popular she was among EN people, in Little Ba Sing Se, she was clearly well received by those shown there.

      You can try to romanticize Kuvira and her actions, but truth is she went too far. Way past her instructions. She performed a coup. That is treason.

      Which "truth" is that?

      What exactly makes her "instructions" legitimate? Because the URN said so? Or the URN's puppet Wu being on board?

      Indeed, she performed a coup, are all coup d'etats bad?

      Hypothetically, let's assume the majority of the Earth Nation was on board and wanted to oust Wu and put Kuvira in. Would you consider this treason? Would you consider it a bad thing for her to take power? Why is the Earth Kingdom's monarchy "legitimate" in the first place?

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    • Being of the Royal Crown Family, Wu does not *need* the People to want him in office. Using Grandma Yin as the "Lens of the People" there were those who still recognized his place on the Throne.

      Here's the thing: We were SHOWN how Kuvira operated. We SAW how she recruited people. The "reunite the nation" was secondary to "pledge your loyalty to *me*". Not to the Earth Kingdom. *Me*. Under threat of death: "perhaps you'll be freed before another train comes along." And the result? Her smirking as "hail the Great Uniter" rang forth.

      Would there be true believers, sure. But I doubt those trainside bandits would be among those sent on missions like kidnapping Wu.

      The WMD was an accident, but one she pursued at the threat of Varrick's life. Then she had no care that Opal—whom many believe to be her "adopted" sister—was in the way. Something which caused even Bataar Jr try to stop the test.

      At some point Kuvira stopped being about the Earth Kingdom and was all about *her*. Okay, *she* pledged to perform certain duties, but decided to no longer fulfill them as she was tasked to do. How did she deal with *her* people who decided to no longer fulfill their tasks to her?

      IRL when a military commander oversteps their bounds and authority, the concern and term is *treason*. Mutiny if it involves a ship. And what do most Court Martials generally uphold? That the Commanding Officer is Usually Right. That the crew do not know all the particulars. Go watch The Caine Mutiny. Especially the part *AFTER* the trial. The Captain had to be *torpedoed* in order to win the case for the crew's favor. But notice that the question was put before them all: "Perhaps if you had *supported* him, things might have turned out differently". And as we saw, Wu was maturing. Sure he still had a ways to go at the time of his coronation, but mature he did.

      Right or Wrong, Treason is Treason. And what generally is the attitude of the treasonous commander if they manage to pull off their coup? *Distrust* of their supporters. "If you could turn against our former President/king/Commander-in-Chief, you'll turn against me."

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    • Integer115 wrote:
      Love Robin wrote:
      Hey, if they did not kill the most powerful and dangerous benders who tried to kidnap infant Korra, they'll prolly not kill Kuvira.
      Of course they will not kill her. She would die from a serious illness or hanged himself in his cell. At least this is "official version" of her death.

      I highly doubt if they ever bother telling that particular story that they'd go with a storyline like that

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    • Anyway, I think they'll just put her in jail; she did give herself up willingly, so it's not like she poses a threat anymore

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    • Yeah, because an old woman worshipping the image of Hou-Ting as though she were a divine being really makes me feel all warm and fuzzy about the royal family. Not to say there weren't freaks like that that followed Kuvira - I'm certain there were - but she's not really a great example.

      We saw how she dealt with bandits that were harrassing a village of innocent people - I don't really feel any sympathy for them. Using them as soldiers was probably her way of making them useful and keeping them under her control; forced conscription sucks, but it's hardly a crime against humanity. A lot of nations have compulsory military service, and the United States still maintains the draft - on paper - and would implement it should the need arise. Military service as opposed to jail time is nothing new, either - I know it was a option in the U.S. during World War II. 

      I don;t like how she treated that village. She should have helped them regardless of what the chose. I'm not disputing that. However, we don't know if she really would have left them to starve. Notice how in most situations she uses threats of military force and coercion rather than outright marching her army through the streets of a town and attacking it? You could argue that she just prefers to avoid casualties; you could also that she bluffs her way through and is effective enough at it to get what she wants. Obviously not the moral thing to do, but at least she tries to avoid violence for the sake of it. 

      Yeah, she was arrogant and had an ego. Well, a lot of politicians and generals are like that - including many of the good ones. Wu also has an ego, but unlike Kuvira, he can't pull it off effectively, nor can he back it up; he just looks pathetic, and comes off as annoying.

      By the time of the weapon testing, it's clear that she's "jumped the rails", so to speak. 

      Wu was maturing by the end, yes. I'm glad that he got the character development to become a lot less annoying, and to actually have something to contribute to the show. Notice how at the end of the show - after he's had that character development - what his decision regarding the Earth Nation is? He says he doesn't want to be the king. Maybe he's realized that he's not the kind of person who should be leading a country - one who obviously hasn't had any training, nor does he apparently have the temperment for one.

      Sure, he helps save a bunch of people in Republic City - and I'm glad he helped the innocent civilians. However, operating on your belief that he is the "rightful" leader of his nation, he is willingly aiding a foreign power during a time of war. That, in of itself, is treason. Much like Louis XVI running to his mother-in-law's empire for help to put down his own people, so that he could have his throne. 

      Can he inspire people? Sure, apparently he can - that "inspirational" speech to evacuate everyone was weird too, in my opinion, but whatever. He does have an ounce of charisma, and can use it to effect; that would make him a good figurehead, but nothing more. 

      Or, you know, they'd be glad that she stood up for her country against a weak-willed puppet being installed by a foreign nation. 

      EDIT: I suppose I should also ask this: what's your opinion on Darth Vader?

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    • QueenCeline wrote:
      Anyway, I think they'll just put her in jail; she did give herself up willingly, so it's not like she poses a threat anymore

      Yeah, she'll certainly get prison for life. Maybe after a while she'll be exiled to some random island on house arrest or something - once the Earth Nation (or what's left of it) has hopefully settled down, and the threat of her pulling a Napoleon's Hundred Days is over. 

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    • Yes, she is imperious and proud. The appearance of these traits is logical. She was the only person who has worked for the good of the nation. The rest are either served her or harm her.

      Kuvira was the only power in the Empire. Other politicians in the Empire was not.

      Some leaders prefer caution, other leaders prefer onslaught. Both strategies have both advantages and disadvantages.

      After the creation of the Empire, war was already on the threshold. Leaders of other nations openly declared they will not tolerate the power of Kuvira. They immediately started looking for a way to eliminate Kuvira. Finally, the leader of the Republic has already begun the process of creating a military coalition to replace Kuvira on Wu. In such a situation to be afraid to go to war was too late. Need to be proactive. A preemptive strike against the Republic is the best choice. Rapid capture of Republic just will replace the hot to the cold war.

      Further still easier. Raiko complained Korra. Avatar Woman arrived and rectify the situation so that Republic beat Empire.

      All the talk about treason have no real value. Only power. If the military leader could take power from his sire, now he is a leader. And the only thing that proves it - have deposed sire had less power than its military leader.

      But the situation with Kuvira this example is not appropriate. I repeat: the monarchy died with the Earth Kingdom. And Kuvira did not swear allegiance to someone else.

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    • The only reason the "EK died and with it the monarchy" (debateable, a monarch-in-exile is STILL a monarch) is because of Treason. Treason is STILL treason, even if the usurpers win. "how'd they get into power?" "They rose up against the old power" "Isn't that treason?" "Sure, but they won". Still treason. Winning does not negate that. Not among neutral observers.

      Kuvira left the parameters of her mission, and let her Ego dictate her actions. That cannot be contested. *It is what she did*.

      And Wu's helping RC citizens against the Earth EMPIRE is not treason, as he is the rightful ruler of the Earth *Kingdom*. He was a citizen and monarch of the EK *not* the EE. It was the EE which was at war with the RC, not the EK. So no treason on his part. The EE should NEVER have existed. Wu was under no obligation to support *any* EE initiative.

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    • If the Earth Kingdom was as popular as you think it is, why was it so easy for Kuvira to get rid of it? That's what I'd like to know. 

      I actually had to go back and review some stuff - I was unclear as to whether or not Wu was actually crowned "Earth King" before Kuvira pulled an "lol no" on him. Turns out he was - I was operating on the mistaken impression that he had never actually been crowned; my opinion still stands that he was a spoiled brat who knew shit about leading a country, who was being hosted by both Raiko and the URN (even though very few people actually liked him) since there was apparently "no one better" to put on the throne. He's obviously a political tool to be used to control the Earth Kingdom as Raiko sees fit; advisors chosen by Raiko to run the country for him? That absolutely screams foreign manipulation - to say otherwise is sheer naivety. 

      "Treason" is a subjective term, depending on who is in power and what the situation is - don't pretend otherwise.

      George Washington, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin - many of these great men, all of which were proud British subjects at one point - willingly committed "treason" against Great Britain, fighting for what they believed in. 

      Senior military and political officials - including the Royal Guard - committed "treason" against King Louis XVI at the start of the French Revolution, ending the Ancien Regime which was driving France into the ground. Louis, growing wary of the liberal movements and being convinced by... Marie Antoinette, I believe?... was caught fleeing to neighboring Austria to gain international support to put down France's first experiment with a constitutional monarchy. This action, was seen as "treason" against France committed by their own King, so they had him executed. 

      The conspirators of the July 20th plot willingly committed "treason" against Nazi Germany, in the hope that by assassinating Hitler that'd they be able to take control of the government, purge the SS, and negotiate a favorable peace treaty with the Allies. The Nazis, in turn, punished these men and their families for "treason", executing many men - such as Claus von Stauffenberg. 

      So, did Kuvira commit "treason" against a pampered idiot being used by the URN to control the Earth Nation and protect Republic City's interests? I guess so. Still, I really don't care - because that's the kind of treason I can get behind. 

      A nation's "legitimacy" is only determined by those in power, and in the end, the URN won because Kuvira overstepped her limits. Had they lost - or better yet, had Kuvira never invaded Republic City - then they wouldn't have much ground to deny the nation's sovereignty. I mean, they could continue to pretend that Wu and some random nobles represented the Earth Nation more than the actual country governing the Earth Nation, but that rarely works out.

      Like with the Republic of China (Taiwan) vs the People's Republic of China. Taiwan held China's seat on the National Security Council until the 1970s because the West hated communism and were pissed that China didn't like being ruled by Chiang Kai-shek. Not that Mao Zedong was an improvement over the right-wing Kuomintang, but I digress. 

      The fact of the matter was that the Earth Nation in its entirety was controlled by the Earth Empire, headquartered in Ba-Sing-Se, with its own army, economy, industry, etc. The Earth Kingdom - as a functioning state - ceased to exist when Kuvira dissolved it during Wu's coronation. There was no Earth Kingdom until it was restored following the fall of the Earth Empire, not matter what a government-in-exile consisting of a handfull of people think. 

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    • For a group of *neutral* chroniclers, yes, it is still Treason. Because Neutral parties call a spade a spade.

      Did the American Founding Fathers commit Treason against the British Crown? Most definitely. Patrick Henry said "If this be treason, then make the most of it", so they *understood* what their actions amounted to.

      However, I shall also point out that they also fitted the roles of Freedom Fighters against an oppressive rule. Was the Earth Kingdom oppressive? Most arguably under the Queen's Rule. However Wu did not fit that personality. He was at best a floppish milquetoast concerned more with image and position than actual ruling before his wake up calls.

      However, Kuvira was not a "freedom fighter" since there was no effective ruling system in place so long as Wu was yet to be coronated and restored to the throne. The *very things she was tasked to do*. In fact most of her actions as her Ego Engaged she became the exact opposite of a freedom fighter, but rather someone in need of freedom fighters fighting for freedom against her.

      Look, the Queen did not "recognize the annexation of the lands to the UR". Yet it was still a fact those lands belonged to the United Republic. That Kuvira—who had no legal authority to declare the formation of an Earth Empire—refused to recognize the Earth Kingdom does not invalidate it or make it disappear.

      Still, at that point was room for Earth Kingdom Freedom Fighters, they were just never shown beyond the Earth Nationals still dedicated to the Earth Kingdom. Primarily the Beifongs and Varrick/Zhu Li.

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    • Being of the Royal Crown Family, Wu does not *need* the People to want him in office. Using Grandma Yin as the "Lens of the People" there were those who still recognized his place on the Throne.

      To quote Monty Python: "Supreme executive power derives from a mandate of the masses."

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bqQ-C1PSE

      Yet, as pointed out, we do see a number of people actually supporting Kuvira in Little Ba Sing Se. Just how representative is grams' view? She's also a bit fanatical about it and supported Hou-Ting, who seemed to be an unpopular ruler.

      Here's the thing: We were SHOWN how Kuvira operated. We SAW how she recruited people. The "reunite the nation" was secondary to "pledge your loyalty to *me*". Not to the Earth Kingdom. *Me*. Under threat of death: "perhaps you'll be freed before another train comes along." And the result? Her smirking as "hail the Great Uniter" rang forth.

      Indeed, we were shown how she operated, and barring the internment camps (which I don't like), I'm not really seeing much that's so out of line. Hell, my country has done/does far worse.

      In so doing, she united the nation and amassed the influence to take control away from one that was heavily influenced by foreign powers. An important distinction in making that transition from the old monarchy.

      Sooooooo you're saying that it's out of line to execute (or just let die) combatants that come at an official with lethal force in an ambush, that refuse to comply? Hmm, interesting.

      Would there be true believers, sure. But I doubt those trainside bandits would be among those sent on missions like kidnapping Wu.

      Perhaps, but consider why were they doing this, was it because they were bullying everyone and relishing in the lawlessness? Were they robbing trains because they were starving and needed to get food/money/supplies to survive...because of generations of the monarchy driving the nation into the ground left the countryside impoverished?

      Maybe Kuvira was just the leader they wanted.

      The WMD was an accident, but one she pursued at the threat of Varrick's life. Then she had no care that Opal—whom many believe to be her "adopted" sister—was in the way. Something which caused even Bataar Jr try to stop the test.

      So, you make such a big fuss about traitors, if so, Kuvira's actions should make perfect sense to you and be pretty much justified.

      Opal was actively in an operation to harm the Earth Empire, why would she stop the test? Varrick had important information on their research and she found a great potential weapon to fight an enemy nation. Nations that we live in, don't let people like Varrick go free with that kind of knowledge.

      At some point Kuvira stopped being about the Earth Kingdom and was all about *her*. Okay, *she* pledged to perform certain duties, but decided to no longer fulfill them as she was tasked to do. How did she deal with *her* people who decided to no longer fulfill their tasks to her?

      Kuvira was about the Earth Nation, not so much the Earth Kingdom (not so unlike Suyin, well, Suyin wasn't even so much about the Earth Nation either, just Zaofu). Kuvira already went to Ba Sing Se to restore order, then the URN backed her.

      Varrick not working on the technology and potentially revealing the secrets to foreign nations when they inevitably continued the research anyways wasn't acceptable to her, so she gave him a choice to work for her or die. Bolin was getting prison time for turning on them. Bataar Jr. cracked and Kuvira chose the cause over her personal life and him.

      Kuvira generally seems to choose mercy and opportunity for rehabilitation over capital punishment, unless the person poses a threat.

      IRL when a military commander oversteps their bounds and authority, the concern and term is *treason*. Mutiny if it involves a ship. And what do most Court Martials generally uphold? That the Commanding Officer is Usually Right. That the crew do not know all the particulars. Go watch The Caine Mutiny. Especially the part *AFTER* the trial. The Captain had to be *torpedoed* in order to win the case for the crew's favor. But notice that the question was put before them all: "Perhaps if you had *supported* him, things might have turned out differently". And as we saw, Wu was maturing. Sure he still had a ways to go at the time of his coronation, but mature he did.

      You're not going to try and argue that Wu had a better grasp of what was going on than Kuvira, are you?

      But, okay, I get it, you're down with the US going back under Britain's rule.

      Right or Wrong, Treason is Treason. And what generally is the attitude of the treasonous commander if they manage to pull off their coup? *Distrust* of their supporters. "If you could turn against our former President/king/Commander-in-Chief, you'll turn against me."

      Oh, if this is purely semantical, I guess that could be said of Kuvira, but so too Varrick, Bolin, Zhu'Li, and Korra.

      Hmmm, I wouldn't think of it that way, I am of the camp that intent matters. "Why did you do it?" is more relevant than what you did. (Also, if the treasonous commander doesn't trust those that fought under them, I am surprised they suceeded in this hypothetical coup d'etat.) If you disobeyed orders to do the "right thing" ("Uhhh, no, I'm not going to gun down this village and murder innocent children and I'm not going to let you do it either. Court Marshall/firing squad away, I won't do it!"), I'm fine with it. Call it "treason" if you wish, I wouldn't find wrong in that, as the cause and reason > the chain of command. I would be less inclined to trust someone who would follow the amoral orders of a tyrant rather than defy/defect.

      Like with Washington, he was a traitor to Britain (but considered a "patriot" in the US and not a traitor), should he have been distrustful of those that were previously British soldiers or citizens, but chose to fight for the colonies as "patriots" when the Revolutionary War started? Bearing in mind, he was fighting an unpopular war for the unpopular side (which was really a proxy war with France against Britain).

      Anyways, the term treason itself, isn't really so important to the actual concept here. And I don't really care if she is technically a traitor or not. I'm more interested in whether what she did was right or wrong, beneficial or detrimental, and semantical arguments are boring. Some definitions of "treason" speak of betraying the country, others specify the country's government, w/e's.

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    • The fact that she's a traitor is important insofar as it debunks the claims that she was justified because she's "the rightful leader."

      In terms of defying orders for self-serving reasons vs. to "do the right thing," well I think it's telling that her act of treason was to declare HERSELF Emperor while Bolin's, Varrick's, & Zhu Li's were all because they were concerned that she was using her power to hurt others--& she responded by threatening them with death &/or prison camps.

      Wanting to bend people to your will rather than lose their talents by killing them is not indicative of "mercy."

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    • "Rightful Leader" has nothing to do with it - and I'd argue that such a term is archaic in of itself.

      The only thing that determines legitimacy is power; having that power gives credibility, and when combined with time, establishes a lineage that is considered "legitimate". Almost every monarchy in history started out as the personal fiefdom of a warlord who gained enough power and support to create a country, one that would be led by each succession of his descendents. Some claimed "ancient lineage", "divine right", or even "divine descent", and they used other established groups and institutions (like organized religions) to give those claims meaning. 

      Effective? Competent? Not a puppet to a foreign regime? Those things make her more worthy of running the Earth Nation than Wu - to Hell with his blood ties to a dynasty that has done little good for the country - especially not in the last two hundred years. 

      I don't think anyone here's debating that she at least had the signs of becoming an egotistical despot by the time Book 4 started. Despite that, she at least gives a damn about the people in her country - or at least the idea of the country - compared to the alternative. She was the one in the position of authority, a leader that people already looked up to, one that was immensly popular.

      Should she have refused to hand over power, and instead announced that she'd let the people decide what form of government they'd want over having a regime forced on them by a foreign power without their approval? Absolutely. But she didn't, and I think Kuvira was a better alternative to Wu as leader of the country; it's just a shame she was a power-thirsty, egotistical despot, though I don't think the change to that was complete until at least half-way through the season. He'd run it into the ground, if not for those advisors - advisors hand-picked by Raiko.

      (Which isn't suspicious at all...)

      Varrick (inadvertently) created the first man-made weapon of mass destruction, and knew how to replicate the process. He's a security threat (as far as any nation would be concerned), and Kuvira viewed him as such. Considering his past "loyalty" to Team Avatar and Republic City, all the while arming the South during the Civil War, she has reason to be wary of him. He was living in exile at Zaofu because he knew that if he stepped back into Republic City, they'd arrest him too. 

      Zhu-Li tried to assassinate Kuvira, which was an act of "treason", considering that she had sworn her loyalty to Kuvira (it was a ruse to spy on the Earth Empire and sabotage the spirit weapon, but as far as Kuvira was concerned, it was legitimate). The normal punishment for treason - especially high treason, like the attempted regicide of a nation's leader - is usually death. Not surprising there. 

      She was brave, willing to sacrifice her life to take out Kuvira and Bataar for what she believed in, and she had to have known the consequences if she had failed. 

      By that vein, if the consider Kuvira's actions "treason" against Wu, then those would be grounds for execution. I don't think she deserves the death penalty, and I certainly know killing her would just tear the Earth Nation apart (again), so they wouldn't be stupid enough to try it. 

      Of course it's mercy - they're not dead. It's shitty mercy, but mercy nonetheless. 

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    • The only thing that determines legitimacy is power; having that power gives credibility, and when combined with time, establishes a lineage that is considered "legitimate".

      Might makes right is another argument that comes up in support of her, no less inane, but 1 thing at a time.

      Effective? Competent?

      I'll get to this question later.

      Not a puppet to a foreign regime?

      I refer you back to my statement that I can just neutrally state Kuvira's actions & they look bad, but her supporters have to twist facts. Suddenly, "we're going to send advisers" becomes "we're going to make the Earth King a puppet."

      Despite that, she at least gives a damn about the people in her country - or at least the idea of the country - compared to the alternative.

      Anyone in the Earth Empire who didn't agree with her views was thrown in prison camps. What she cares about is literally an echo chamber for her own views. So noble.

      Should she have refused to hand over power, and instead announced that she'd let the people decide what form of government they'd want over having a regime forced on them by a foreign power without their approval? Absolutely. But she didn't, and I think Kuvira was a better alternative to Wu as leader of the country;

      Which is based on an entirely one sided argument, since we never see Wu as a ruler. I'd also note that Kuvira eventually gets her nation disbanded as a result of the war she stupidly started. So, if we're arguing from pragmatism, technically she's a worse ruler than the Earth Queen. Because, if you're arguing that the results justify her, well then doing pretty well for 3 years doesn't cut it, we have to look at the endgame, & the endgame is that she blows her resources on a stupid giant robot & gets captured by the Avatar.

      Varrick (inadvertently) created the first man-made weapon of mass destruction, and knew how to replicate the process. He's a security threat (as far as any nation would be concerned), and Kuvira viewed him as such. Considering his past "loyalty" to Team Avatar and Republic City, all the while arming the South during the Civil War, she has reason to be wary of him. He was living in exile at Zaofu because he knew that if he stepped back into Republic City, they'd arrest him too.

      You are literally endorsing killing people for crimes they "might" commit.

      Zhu-Li tried to assassinate Kuvira

      No she didn't. I checked the Wiki, so I know this isn't just my bad memory, & thanks to the Wiki, I also remember that Kuvira had her chained up in the test town for the Spirit Cannon.

      Kuvira, once again displaying her sense of mercy & hesitance to resort to the death penalty. *Slow, sarcastic clap.*

      Of course it's mercy - they're not dead. It's shitty mercy, but mercy nonetheless.

      That would mean that torture is mercy.

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    • Yes solves only power.

      And it is so obvious.

      Either the king decides either accept the decision of his advisers. Yes or no.

      Her views is strong and united nation, a prosperous state and the elimination of banditry and separatism. Yes, people who openly oppose these views during a severe crisis should be isolated from society. Or executed. 

      The state has gained power and decided to become more powerful. Yes, it is quite unexpected.

      Yes, politics is a serious business.

      The explosion of "Dora" had to kill Kuvira and other scientists and officers of the Empire.

      Do you think that you can make her life even worse? You are mistaken.

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    • Her views is strong and united nation, a prosperous state and the elimination of banditry and separatism. Yes, people who openly oppose these views during a severe crisis should be isolated from society. Or executed.

      You are either a troll or a psychopath.

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    • I like the idea that Kuvira get executed. What should she get? Impale to death? Hanged? Beheaded? Burning alive? Or tied her up and let some carnivorous animals eat her?

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    • I was going to say, "Shot with a spirit cannon," but it blew up. Actually, fine, no executions, just hand her over to the Spirits & see what they feel is an appropriate punishment for using them to power a laser. Could even make a betting pool out of it. Proceeds go towards repairing Zaofu & Republic City.

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    • Might makes right is another argument that comes up in support of her, no less inane, but 1 thing at a time.

      That's because it's true. It sucks, but that's how the world works - and from what we've seen, their world is no different. Power is power, and that's how a nation, political party, religion, or any kind of group stays relevant - power.

      I'll get to this question later.

      Lol, why wait? She's effective at what she does. She reunited a massive country within a span of three years, starting from a small group of like-minded individuals who left with her. That is effective. Competent? She was certainly competent at the start of her quest to unite the country, and was largely competent for the first half of Book 4.

      By the end of Book 4? I'll be the first to admit she was insane, drunk with power, and an egotistical despot. Internment/reeducation camps, creation of her giant mecha, and the attempted invasion of Republic City - which almost certainly would have started another world war - are perfect examples of why the power went to her head and why she need to be taken down. She came to her senses after Korra beat the shit out of her and had a talk with her. Then she willingly surrendered and ordered her army to stand down.

      I refer you back to my statement that I can just neutrally state Kuvira's actions & they look bad, but her supporters have to twist facts. Suddenly, "we're going to send advisers" becomes "we're going to make the Earth King a puppet.

      I don't have to twist facts, because they are facts. Raiko is sending advisors to run a country for the inept Prince that they apparently had no other option to pick for the throne of a defunct Kingdom that was just as oppressive as Kuvira's Empire. Why didn't they just decide to make the Earth Nation a federation? If they're so in favor of democracy and letting the people decide, where the Hell was that plan at the beginning of Book 4? How could you not see Wu as anything but a puppet of Raiko?

      Anyone in the Earth Empire who didn't agree with her views was thrown in prison camps. What she cares about is literally an echo chamber for her own views. So noble.

      I'm not going to defend this action because I don't agree with it, and this is one of the reasons why I think she deserves life in prison. Of course, that's disregarding the fact that we never saw how widespread these camps were, we never saw any prior rationale or sign of racism on part of Kuvira, Bataar, or anyone else in the Earth Nation... this seriously feels like it was shoe-horned into the plot to make her progress to full villain complete. 

      Nevermind the fact that apparently enough people in the Earth Nation agreed with her so that she was able to get away with the camps, arms race, and invasion of Republic City, otherwise her Empire wouldn't be as stable as its made out to be, and she wouldn't have had such a large following. Blame her as much as you want - I'm fine with that - but where's the blame for the Earth Nation going along with this? 

      Which is based on an entirely one sided argument, since we never see Wu as a ruler. I'd also note that Kuvira eventually gets her nation disbanded as a result of the war she stupidly started. So, if we're arguing from pragmatism, technically she's a worse ruler than the Earth Queen. Because, if you're arguing that the results justify her, well then doing pretty well for 3 years doesn't cut it, we have to look at the endgame, & the endgame is that she blows her resources on a stupid giant robot & gets captured by the Avatar

      He was whiny, weak-willed, spoiled, maked an ass of himself, threw money away left-and-right, and he couldn't inspire anyone for shit. It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to see what kind of a ruler someone like that would be - it really doesn't. I'm not going to defend Kuvira's invasion of Republic City, because it was really f****** stupid. Of course, we're talking about Kuvira when she had already gone evil, because she lost any form of competence in the last half of Book 4.

      For goodness sake, Kuvira didn't disband the Earth Nation - Wu did. Her actions - internationally - were no different than Hou-Ting; had she been given the opportunity, she outright stated that she would invade and end Republic City's independence.

      They didn't have to disband it, the could have made it some democratic federation (like they should have done from the beginning). No, instead they carried through with this world's equivalent of the Bourbon Restoration, and Wu wrecked his own country - which had existed in some form for the past few thousand years - just like the Bourbons did when they retook the throne after Napoleon was exiled (for the second time). 

      You are literally endorsing killing people for crimes they "might" commit.

      No I'm not - and you're literally putting words into my mouth. I'm condoning keeping an eye on a man who knows how to create weapons of mass destruction, because his knowledge would be a tremendous asset to any nation on the planet. 

      The United States kept a short leash on everyone working on the Manhattan Project during the Second World War for good reason. Any chance of those plans for the atomic bomb reaching either the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, or Imperial Japan would have been disastrous. As it turned out, they were right to be wary - the Soviets actively had spies in the project and were able to replicate their own bomb four years after WWII.

      No she didn't. I checked the Wiki, so I know this isn't just my bad memory, & thanks to the Wiki, I also remember that Kuvira had her chained up in the test town for the Spirit Cannon. Kuvira, once again displaying her sense of mercy & hesitance to resort to the death penalty. *Slow, sarcastic clap.*

      ... Right, the Wiki anyone can edit. You must have also missed the part in the show where the cannon was about to overload with Kuvira, Bataar, and Zhu-Li right next to it. You saw the magnitude of the explosion when the cannon went off in Republic City (admittedly influenced by the spirit vines), but even then, you saw the demonstration of its firepower against the mountain. That would have gone off and killed everyone - Zhu-Li would have given her life to kill Kuvira and end her reign of terror. 

      Mercy? What mercy? There was none when she ordered that Zhu-Li be executed for betraying her. I mean, there might be mercy in a quick and (hopefully) painless death of getting annihilated by the cannon, but even then I would be hard-pressed to call that "mercy". The punishment for treason is usually death - again, I'm not surprised. I mean, are you?

      That would mean that torture is mercy

      Again, putting words into my mouth. Nice. I guess there was some psychological torture against those bandits, but I'd hardly call her attempt to subdue them torture. I still don't feel sympathy for a group of bandits who were willingly going to steal from a starving village; she could have killed them, but she didn't. Instead she conscripted them into her army. 

      EDIT: Changed argument against Wu to past-tense; he improved by the end of Book 4.

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    • I would also like to state that I'm not dead-set against executing her - from a moral basis. I mean, the Avatar (the ultimate authority of all the nations) chose to spare her, and Kuvira willingly gave up and told her army to stand down.

      Ozai did far worse - I'd argue that he literally was this universe's version of Hitler - and yet he was spared by Aang. Why didn't they execute him? Partially because Zuko probably wouldn't have liked it, but also because it would have probably caused a civil war in the Fire Nation. Which we might end up seeing, since Smoke and Shadows is supposed to focus on the Fire Nation following the aftermath of the Hundred Year War. 

      Executing Kuvira would be no different - you'd be guaranteed to cause another civil war in the Earth Nation. I also have no problem with taking her bending away from her permanently. 

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Her views is strong and united nation, a prosperous state and the elimination of banditry and separatism. Yes, people who openly oppose these views during a severe crisis should be isolated from society. Or executed.

      You are either a troll or a psychopath.

      It's simple. You are confusing the concept of freedom and permissiveness. If you get up on the protection of chaos and anarchy then get ready for the consequences.

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    • She was probally given life imprison since yakone was given that after blood bending a few dozen people while she conquered the entire earth kingdom. If Korra can take bending away then it should be taken away along with Zaheer.

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    • Thebridge14 wrote:
      She was probally given life imprison since yakone was given that after blood bending a few dozen people while she conquered the entire earth kingdom. If Korra can take bending away then it should be taken away along with Zaheer.

      Yakone's crimes to Kuvira's aren't even comparable. Yakone was a mob boss, but Kuvira was a dictator who had WMDs and almost started World War II. Yakone certainly deserves prison, but Kuvira has done enough that it could warrant an execution. Political and external factors make the idea of executing her very unsavory, and very complicated. 

      I agree regarding Zaheer - take his bending away too. 

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    • In point of fact, Wu did not disband the Earth *Kingdom*, he stated his intention to do away with the *monarchy*. In favor of supporting individualized areas the right to have their own elected officials. Would it retain in any form the term "Kingdom"? Possibly. Probably not, tho. So "Earth Nation" is a good potential term.

      But Hey, the Disbanding was only stated as a goal, it had yet to happen. While no reason to believe it won't occur, we still need to await future stories to establish that it *did* occur.

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    • Love Robin wrote:
      In point of fact, Wu did not disband the Earth *Kingdom*, he stated his intention to do away with the *monarchy*. In favor of supporting individualized areas the right to have their own elected officials. Would it retain in any form the term "Kingdom"? Possibly. Probably not, tho. So "Earth Nation" is a good potential term.

      But Hey, the Disbanding was only stated as a goal, it had yet to happen. While no reason to believe it won't occur, we still need to await future stories to establish that it *did* occur.

      True. That's where the crux of my issue regarding Wu at the end of the show comes form. He became tolerable at the end of the series, from a comic relief character that I detested to someone I don't sneer at every time I see him on the screen; so yeah, that's an improvement. 

      Again, I don't have any problem with dissolving the monarchy. The nation's dynasty has had nothing but mediocre, weak, and terrible rulers for the past two centuries. After the disaster with Kuvira, I'd say democracy is what the nation needs - as well as serious checks on the power of any executive leader. 

      I like "Earth Federation", myself. Not just because I'm a Gundam fan, but I digress. 

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      The fact that she's a traitor is important insofar as it debunks the claims that she was justified because she's "the rightful leader."

      In terms of defying orders for self-serving reasons vs. to "do the right thing," well I think it's telling that her act of treason was to declare HERSELF Emperor while Bolin's, Varrick's, & Zhu Li's were all because they were concerned that she was using her power to hurt others--& she responded by threatening them with death &/or prison camps.

      Wanting to bend people to your will rather than lose their talents by killing them is not indicative of "mercy."

      Perhaps because I come from an era in which monarchy is considered antiquated, I am of the opinion that being born into the right family doesn't really make for a valid form of government. It would have been nice to have seen more of what the people actually wanted in the nation.

      But it wasn't really selfserving, it was for her notion of what was best for the nation. She felt she needed to be strong and the nation needed to become strong again to see prosperity. Now, "was she misguided?" is a debatable point, but "selfserving?" she herself after being defeated explains the opposite of that. We don't really know what the structure of the government was/would be, and even if she were to remain the soveriegn, if she truly believed she was the best person for the job for the betterment of the nation as a whole, that's selfless.

      In their own ways, as far as intent goes, all four you mention were doing what they felt was right. And this manifested differently in each of them. Note that Suyin (not mentioned) and Zhu'Li both seemed down with assassinating Kuvira, so death was apparantly on the table as far as they were concerned.

      Prison isn't merciful, considering that treason often carries capital punishment?

      Kuvira had many opportunities to just kill people that stood against her, but generally did not, unless they posed a serious threat. In this sense, I'd consider her relatively merciful. She threatened Varrick (who had military secrets/technology that could threaten her nation in others' hands) with death (maybe she wouldn't have gone through with it) and ordered execution for Zhu'Li (who just tried to assassinate her and a crowd). She could have outright killed the Water and Fire Nation ethnics in the EN, she could have mowed down Korra with her army and then could have slaughtered Zaofu, she could have destroyed Republic City from the outset. Kuvira was tough, but she showed a more merciful approach rather than just ruthlessly killing. And in the end, when she started firing on RC, this was after they breached the truce. If she were Ozai or Unalaq, RC would have been gone.

      No she didn't. I checked the Wiki, so I know this isn't just my bad memory, & thanks to the Wiki, I also remember that Kuvira had her chained up in the test town for the Spirit Cannon.

      Kuvira, once again displaying her sense of mercy & hesitance to resort to the death penalty. *Slow, sarcastic clap.*

      Then WIki's wrong on this one. Zhu'Li sabotaged the cannon to blow up, the second time knowing that Kuvira, Bataar Jr., and other military would be there for the weapon's demonstration.

      Would you criticize Wu for ordering Kuvira's execution if Kuvira tried and failed to assassinate him and his top generals in his palace?

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    • Personal feelings as to what constitutes a legitimate government is not itself a legitimate reason to invalidate it. Whether you like it or not, a monarchy *IS* a valid form of government. It is no different from the Fire Nation having a royal family. There is no difference between Izumi's *right to rule* and Wu's.

      Not to mention *Empires* are forms of government based upon monarchies. Empress Kuvira was a monarch. She committed treason partly with the reasoning she felt *she* had more of a "right to rule" than Wu.

      So why could she not, as Wu's coronation approached, have requested, even insisted, that due to her performance in the Service of the Throne she be installed as one of, if not the prime, advisor?

      Because her Ego grew. She began to believe her own hype. Just imagine how different things would have been had Korra not been still suffering her PTSD… "you can even use the Avatar State". Ego out of control.

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    • Possession of power on the facts and the approval of the majority of the population enough to recognize the power of man. Real power. A paper power has no value if not backed up by actual authority or approval of the majority of the population.

      Authority, the army, the masses, what else you need to confirm Kuvira's right to rule? She had to remove the sword from the stone?

      The show has been clearly shown then that foreign leaders initially perceived she as a tool. She was supposed to create a state for this idiot and then as an obedience dog give authority over the state in the hands of the king-jester and his foreign advisers. But she refused.

      The only point where she's ego hurt her - when she went to the city with her robot. In fact, this is not a bad weapon. Beam cannon can not lead plunging fire. By this they positioned it on the robot arm. But of course this does not solve the problem completely. Dora has a very low mobility. Need special railroad. In addition there are big problems with the bridges. But the giant robot has no problems with mobility. The river robot can go to ford. But any self-propelled gun being in the city becomes very vulnerable. That is, she was not supposed to use the robot in the city. Or if it has already entered the city and was attacked then she was immediately select is back from the city. Instead, she took the fight. It was only but a fatal mistake.

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    • Kuvira was tasked with clearing out anarchists. In the course of so doing, she became the biggest anarchist. Power to Rule does not always equate to either Right to Rule or Best to Rule.

      But we're going in circles now. You've romanticized Kuvira. You've bought into and drunk her kool-aid. You're hailing the "great uniter".

      So there is nothing more I need to say, as indeed I've been retreading ground already.

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    • CommanderZeta wrote:

      Thebridge14 wrote:
      She was probally given life imprison since yakone was given that after blood bending a few dozen people while she conquered the entire earth kingdom. If Korra can take bending away then it should be taken away along with Zaheer.

      Yakone's crimes to Kuvira's aren't even comparable. Yakone was a mob boss, but Kuvira was a dictator who had WMDs and almost started World War II. Yakone certainly deserves prison, but Kuvira has done enough that it could warrant an execution. Political and external factors make the idea of executing her very unsavory, and very complicated. 

      I agree regarding Zaheer - take his bending away too. 

      I know that Kuvira did far worse than Yakone but there really is no punishment worse than life in prison (that was kinda my point sorry if the wording was confusing) besides death but korra risked her life to save her so I doubt she would allow Kuvira to be killed.

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    • Love Robin wrote:
      Kuvira was tasked with clearing out anarchists. In the course of so doing, she became the biggest anarchist. Power to Rule does not always equate to either Right to Rule or Best to Rule.

      But we're going in circles now. You've romanticized Kuvira. You've bought into and drunk her kool-aid. You're hailing the "great uniter".

      So there is nothing more I need to say, as indeed I've been retreading ground already.

      "Foreign leaders". For this reason, they can not demand from she. They might hope that she will perform their wet fantasies. They could put pressure on she. They could threaten her and try to get rid of her. But she did not swore fealty. And no papers are not signed.

      I fundamentally do not rely on emotions when assessing characters. Only logic.

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    • But it wasn't really selfserving, it was for her notion of what was best for the nation. She felt she needed to be strong and the nation needed to become strong again to see prosperity. Now, "was she misguided?" is a debatable point, but "selfserving?" she herself after being defeated explains the opposite of that. We don't really know what the structure of the government was/would be, and even if she were to remain the soveriegn, if she truly believed she was the best person for the job for the betterment of the nation as a whole, that's selfless.

      Pfft, yeah, I'm sure the fact that she named HERSELF the Emperor that everyone had to swear loyalty to was a COMPLETE coincidence.

      By the end of Book 4? I'll be the first to admit she was insane, drunk with power, and an egotistical despot. Internment/reeducation camps, creation of her giant mecha, and the attempted invasion of Republic City - which almost certainly would have started another world war - are perfect examples of why the power went to her head and why she need to be taken down.

      Yeah, I friggin' KNOW, that's why I'm saying she's a terrible person & war criminal who deserves what she gets. But what's baffling is that people still romanticize her even after conceding, again & again, how despotic she was.

      She came to her senses after Korra beat the shit out of her and had a talk with her. Then she willingly surrendered and ordered her army to stand down.

      Having a tragic backstory doesn't make her a good person. As far as surrendering goes, well I argue that her "remorse" is situational, contingent on her realization that, in her words, "The Avatar is more powerful than anything I could come up with."

      That's because it's true. It sucks, but that's how the world works - and from what we've seen, their world is no different. Power is power, and that's how a nation, political party, religion, or any kind of group stays relevant - power.

      Okay, fine, then anything that happens to Kuvira is automatically justified, because she was overpowered.

      See, ALL of the arguments used in favor of Kuvira have some glaring flaw, flip-flopping between them as is convenient doesn't mean the flaw does not exist, it means you're being inconsistent.

      Lol, why wait?

      Because it was better addressed in another point. You should really read to the end before you try to argue.

      I don't have to twist facts, because they are facts. Raiko is sending advisors to run a country for the inept Prince that they apparently had no other option to pick for the throne of a defunct Kingdom that was just as oppressive as Kuvira's Empire. Why didn't they just decide to make the Earth Nation a federation? If they're so in favor of democracy and letting the people decide, where the Hell was that plan at the beginning of Book 4? How could you not see Wu as anything but a puppet of Raiko?

      "Puppet" implies complete control. "Adviser" implies instruction that can be taken or left as the King desires. It COULD be euphemistic, but there's no evidence of that, you're just asserting it because it's convenient to your point. Sorry, I don't consider making things up to be a valid argument.

      I don't see why I had to explain this. If you still think you're arguing from fact & not speculation, wow.

      this seriously feels like it was shoe-horned into the plot to make her progress to full villain complete.

      And yet people STILL romanticize her.

      Nevermind the fact that apparently enough people in the Earth Nation agreed with her so that she was able to get away with the camps, arms race, and invasion of Republic City, otherwise her Empire wouldn't be as stable as its made out to be, and she wouldn't have had such a large following. Blame her as much as you want - I'm fine with that - but where's the blame for the Earth Nation going along with this?

      Well, most of her forces are literally faceless, so ascribing a motive to them is difficult. Plus, you have to take into account the fact that Kuvira used conditioning, threats, & other coercive methods to keep her army in line.

      He was whiny, weak-willed, spoiled, maked an ass of himself, threw money away left-and-right, and he couldn't inspire anyone for shit. It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to see what kind of a ruler someone like that would be - it really doesn't.

      As you like to note, Kuvira at the beginning of her reign & Kuvira by the end of her reign behave very differently. Further, even without the benefit of Raiko's advisors, Wu becomes a lot more responsible as time goes on--which you also note. Since these characters are capable of making a lot of change in a relatively short time span, no, you can't predict the entire course of Wu's reign.

      For goodness sake, Kuvira didn't disband the Earth Nation - Wu did.

      I was referring to losing the Earth Empire, but to this I say, "If you want all of the credit, you also get all of the blame." If she hadn't made Wu a political outcast, he wouldn't have absorbed the ideals of the United Republic. If she hadn't oppressed her people, people wouldn't be as wary of a strong central government. If she had just minded her own damn business, the world leaders leaned towards letting her keep the Earth Empire. In other words, if she'd done any of a number of things differently, the decision to split the Earth Kingdom probably would not have happened. So it is, in fact, her fault.

      Mind you, I don't agree that splitting the Earth Kingdom "ruined" it, quite the opposite in fact.

      No I'm not - and you're literally putting words into my mouth. I'm condoning keeping an eye on a man who knows how to create weapons of mass destruction, because his knowledge would be a tremendous asset to any nation on the planet.

      Well, Kuvira threatened to kill him if he wouldn't go along with her plan, & you defended "not letting Varrick go free with that kind of information," so maybe you should be more clear on what you're referring to.

      ... Right, the Wiki anyone can edit. You must have also missed the part in the show where the cannon was about to overload with Kuvira, Bataar, and Zhu-Li right next to it. You saw the magnitude of the explosion when the cannon went off in Republic City (admittedly influenced by the spirit vines), but even then, you saw the demonstration of its firepower against the mountain. That would have gone off and killed everyone - Zhu-Li would have given her life to kill Kuvira and end her reign of terror.

      1. The "anyone can edit, therefore it's wrong" excuse is a lame cop out.

      2. Except Ziu Li had already sabotaged the machine several times, & each time the test was aborted, so a more logical conclusion is that she wanted them to give up on the weapon. Kuvira, in fact, was warned of the danger of this weapon several times, & was the one who had no problems putting lives at risk to develop it. Not to mention putting lives at risk when she used it on people.

      Mercy? What mercy? There was none when she ordered that Zhu-Li be executed for betraying her. I mean, there might be mercy in a quick and (hopefully) painless death of getting annihilated by the cannon, but even then I would be hard-pressed to call that "mercy". The punishment for treason is usually death - again, I'm not surprised. I mean, are you?

      I'm not the one that said that Kuvira "avoids the death penalty where possible & generally chooses mercy." It's bollocks, she's a raging psychopath who resorts to murder to avoid being mildly inconvenienced (Bataar Jr.) & only chooses another option when she can get some kind of benefit out of keeping the person alive.

      Again, putting words into my mouth. Nice.

      No I'm not, you flat-out said that not killing someone constitutes mercy, you're just getting mad that I pointed out how stupid that claim is. Oh well. It's not my fault you insist on defending a blatantly untrue argument.

      I guess there was some psychological torture against those bandits, but I'd hardly call her attempt to subdue them torture.

      I wasn't actually suggesting that Kuvira uses torture, it's just 1 of any number of examples that show that "lol she didn't kill that person" is a stupid reason to consider her "merciful." The mere act of not murdering the Hell out of someone does not imply kind or compassionate intention.

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    • She created an army and state in your opinion she did it in the rank of a soldier?

      Only the camps for foreigners. Its her only sin. If she was perfect it would only hurt her image.

      She in no need to repent.

      Power not have any alignment. Your claims are unfounded.

      This idiot has neither the knowledge nor the experience nor even the will. Republic advisors would ruled Wu even more easily than US advisers ruled Yeltsin.

      She revived the deceased state. Do you think it is done exceptionally clean methods? Go down to earth.

      In fact, he was a clown. Clown who knows how to entertain people and animals.

      Oppression of the people? People of Ba Sing Se not heard about it. Or they are no longer the people? Or you continue to assert that the crimes against the state are not subject to punishment?

      Release the person who knows the secret superweapon to freedom during the Cold War? You are either a troll or a child.

      The test was aborted due to the risk of explosion. Your assumption is incorrect.

      You've probably never played chess? In order to win the game sometimes you have to sacrifice their figures.

      i.e. your assumption is incorrect.

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    • Yeah, I friggin' KNOW, that's why I'm saying she's a terrible person & war criminal who deserves what she gets. But what's baffling is that people still romanticize her even after conceding, again & again, how despotic she was.

      Not romanticizing her. We're pointing out that she's not the clear-cut villain and a black-and-white world that you think it is. Alexander, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon all had their negative attributes, but that doesn't mean they weren't great leaders. At one point during her reunification, it seems like Kuvira was. At some point, her ego and insanity screwed her over, and she lost.

      Having a tragic backstory doesn't make her a good person. As far as surrendering goes, well I argue that her "remorse" is situational, contingent on her realization that, in her words, "The Avatar is more powerful than anything I could come up with.

      I didn't say it did. Lol, I haven't even said once that she's a good person throughout this whole argument. She was neutral at best during the first half of Book 4, going full-on villain by the end. Being "good" doesn't mean she isn't a more competent ruler than Raiko's alternative.

      As you like to note, Kuvira at the beginning of her reign & Kuvira by the end of her reign behave very differently. Further, even without the benefit of Raiko's advisors, Wu becomes a lot more responsible as time goes on--which you also note. Since these characters are capable of making a lot of change in a relatively short time span, no, you can't predict the entire course of Wu's reign.

      Wu becomes responsible and more mature by suffering and going through loss - the loss of his throne to Kuvira, as well as his international humiliation. The loss makes him think, and then Mako and his family take him in, and he bonds with them. He finds friendship, and people who set a good example. That empathy and sympathy he begins to learn - or hone, I suppose - is what makes him better.

      Contrast this with putting a whiny, spoiled prince who is now getting just about whatever he wants - the wealth and status of the world's largest nation, and a very prestigous title "the Earth King". Life of luxury and power awaits. I admit it's not guaranteed, but it's just as likely that he'd become worse as the Earth King. 

      I was referring to losing the Earth Empire, but to this I say, "If you want all of the credit, you also get all of the blame." If she hadn't made Wu a political outcast, he wouldn't have absorbed the ideals of the United Republic. If she hadn't oppressed her people, people wouldn't be as wary of a strong central government. If she had just minded her own damn business, the world leaders leaned towards letting her keep the Earth Empire. In other words, if she'd done any of a number of things differently, the decision to split the Earth Kingdom probably would not have happened. So it is, in fact, her fault.

      Yes, I'm well aware. Look, I don't agree with all of Kuvira's actions that day, but I can't fault her for taking power from Raiko and Wu - it just screams Bourbon Restoration. Maybe the international community should have just decided to make the Earth Nation a democracy instead, hm? Instead of reinstalling a regime that his been proven time and time again to not work. I have said over and over that Kuvira made mistakes - I'm not refuting that. She should have avoided using the spirit weapon, should have not created those prisons, and for goodness sake, her invasion of Republic City was doomed from the start. 

      There are plenty of things that are her fault, yes, and nothing she did helped. Wu still didn't have to dissolve the Earth Nation, but he did. 

      Except Ziu Li had already sabotaged the machine several times, & each time the test was aborted, so a more logical conclusion is that she wanted them to give up on the weapon. Kuvira, in fact, was warned of the danger of this weapon several times, & was the one who had no problems putting lives at risk to develop it. Not to mention putting lives at risk when she used it on people.

      Yes, she did. But they still didn't. When it was about to go off, was she rushing in to fix the damage, to save everyone? No, that was Bataar, because he (understandably) didn't want to die. Zhu-Li knew the risks of sabotaging the weapon, because she seemed to have an idea of how it worked. So yes, it looks like that if it came to that, she was willing to sacrifice herself to kill Kuvira and her followers.

      I'm not the one that said that Kuvira "avoids the death penalty where possible & generally chooses mercy." It's bollocks, she's a raging psychopath who resorts to murder to avoid being mildly inconvenienced (Bataar Jr.) & only chooses another option when she can get some kind of benefit out of keeping the person alive.

      There's a difference in the context I was using. Not only are we dealing with a slightly less insane Kuvira pre-spiritweapon discovery, but those were bandits who had been terrorizing a town. There has been plenty of precedence for armies executing bandits and looters on the spot in times of crisis. She didn't have to let them live, but she did, and she conscripted them into her army. That is mercy.

      Kuvira by the latter half of the show - after the discovery of the spirit-nuke - stopped showing mercy altogether; by then, she's willing to kill anyone who gets in her way. That includes using Zhu-Li for sabotaging her ultimate weapon and trying to (or accidentally, whatever) kill both her and Bataar. As far as she's concerned, that's a capital offense, and deserved execution. By spiritcannon, in this case. 

      No I'm not, you flat-out said that not killing someone constitutes mercy, you're just getting mad that I pointed out how stupid that claim is. Oh well. It's not my fault you insist on defending a blatantly untrue argument.

      There are different degrees of mercy, I suppose, but deciding not to kill someone over something is ususally a form of usually "mercy". It's not a stupid claim, because that is a valid definition for "mercy". I mean, yeah, they've been conscripted into her army, but they're not dead. There'd be no hope after that. 

      I'm not mad, actually - I'm having fun. Not often I can have a debate on here with someone who can actually keep up and present a challenge.

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    • Integer115 wrote: She created an army and state in your opinion she did it in the rank of a soldier?

      Only the camps for foreigners. Its her only sin. If she was perfect it would only hurt her image.

      She in no need to repent.

      Power not have any alignment. Your claims are unfounded.

      This idiot has neither the knowledge nor the experience nor even the will. Republic advisors would ruled Wu even more easily than US advisers ruled Yeltsin.

      She revived the deceased state. Do you think it is done exceptionally clean methods? Go down to earth.

      In fact, he was a clown. Clown who knows how to entertain people and animals.

      Oppression of the people? People of Ba Sing Se not heard about it. Or they are no longer the people? Or you continue to assert that the crimes against the state are not subject to punishment?

      Release the person who knows the secret superweapon to freedom during the Cold War? You are either a troll or a child.

      The test was aborted due to the risk of explosion. Your assumption is incorrect.

      You've probably never played chess? In order to win the game sometimes you have to sacrifice their figures.

      i.e. your assumption is incorrect.

      You are clearly addressing me, but I'm not actually reading your posts, because there's no point trying to reason with someone who says psychotic shit like "everything is justified for the cause."

      I'm actually fairly good at chess, but my skill went up a lot when I took Sun Tzu's statement that "the best war is the one never fought" to heart. 9 times out of 10, sacrificing a piece just weakens you.

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    • Not romanticizing her. We're pointing out that she's not the clear-cut villain and a black-and-white world that you think it is. Alexander, Julius Caesar, and Napoleon all had their negative attributes, but that doesn't mean they weren't great leaders.

      Her ability to lead is not one of my main points, I reference it mainly in response to how it is used to defend her.

      That said, I actually DON'T think she's a good leader, but for different reasons. She's a good FIGHTER, which explains why she can quell rebellions across the Earth Kingdom & turn the military into a powerhouse. But pretty much every non-military benefit to the Earth Empire came from someone else. The railroad overhaul, I'm pretty sure, was Asami's idea. If not, it was probably Bataar Jr.'s. He's an architect, so it stands to reason that most industry advances come from him. And the Spirit Vine technology was Varrick's brainchild.

      When we see Kuvira HERSELF make decisions on how to allocate these resources, she's very...creative. Why use your big, fancy army when you can either challenge the Avatar to a duel or build a giant robot?

      Much of Book 4 makes a lot more sense if Kuvira is relatively unintelligent outside of direct combat, & most of the Earth Empire's advances come from other people.

      Wu becomes responsible and more mature by suffering and going through loss - the loss of his throne to Kuvira, as well as his international humiliation. The loss makes him think, and then Mako and his family take him in, and he bonds with them. He finds friendship, and people who set a good example. That empathy and sympathy he begins to learn - or hone, I suppose - is what makes him better. Contrast this with putting a whiny, spoiled prince who is now getting just about whatever he wants - the wealth and status of the world's largest nation, and a very prestigous title "the Earth King". Life of luxury and power awaits. I admit it's not guaranteed, but it's just as likely that he'd become worse as the Earth King.

      Well, you can say a lot of things about the plan to put Wu on the throne, EXCEPT that it promoted any 1 person's interests. The plan was a joint agreement between Raiko, Kuvira, Tenzin, Suyin, Izumi, & of course Wu himself. I think even the Water Tribe Chiefs were there for the coronation.

      Given that, & given that the agreement had been working pretty well for the 3 years that Kuvira was cleaning out the Earth Kingdom--& that she was starting to show some worrying signs of being power mad--if you then presented me with the options (A) support Kuvira in naming herself Emperor & seeing how that goes down or (B) keep going along with the original plan, both are relative gambles, but I would go with the latter.

      The best case scenario would, of course, be that the decision is ACTUALLY handed over to the Earth Kingdom people (such as a democracy), but if I had to choose between the 2, of course I would go with the option that places absolute power in the largest amount of hands. Should I be concerned that a lot of those hands are "foreign"? I don't know, that seems a bit xenophobic to me, & it's not like despotism or incompetence can't be home grown.

      Yes, she did. But they still didn't. When it was about to go off, was she rushing in to fix the damage, to save everyone? No, that was Bataar, because he (understandably) didn't want to die. Zhu-Li knew the risks of sabotaging the weapon, because she seemed to have an idea of how it worked. So yes, it looks like that if it came to that, she was willing to sacrifice herself to kill Kuvira and her followers.

      Maybe, but either way, I stick to the following arguments:

      1. The intent is to sabotage the machine, not necessarily kill Kuvira.

      2. The risk of death comes mainly from Kuvira & Bataar Jr. insisting on a project they can plainly see is dangerous.

      On a personal note, I would be absolutely fine if Ziu Li knocked off Kuvira. I loathe that boring, square-headed snake in the grass. In fact, at one point, I actually DID vainly hope that Ziu Li would kill her & replace her as the Big Bad.

      There are different degrees of mercy, I suppose, but deciding not to kill someone over something is ususally a form of usually "mercy". It's not a stupid claim, because that is a valid definition for "mercy". I mean, yeah, they've been conscripted into her army, but they're not dead. There'd be no hope after that.

      It is utilitarianism. Similar to the thing I said about Chess, this is why "I will not kill my underlings" or something to that effect appears on the Evil Overlord exist. You can be literally devoid of conscience or empathy & still see that, objectively, there are benefits to a low execution count. It boosts morale because people are more likely to view you as benevolent, & of course as I keep saying, you can't use their talents if they're dead. Even if they are unskilled &/or you have to imprison them for the rest of their lives, you can still get free labor out of them. How the prospective victims feel about their options is incidental, the endgame is simply to get use out of them.

      I'm not mad, actually - I'm having fun. Not often I can have a debate on here with someone who can actually keep up and present a challenge.

      Well, thank you. I'm about 50/50. I hold scorn for Kuvira that most people reserve for Unalaq. On the other hand, if I thought you had nothing interesting to say, I wouldn't be answering you.

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    • That said, I actually DON'T think she's a good leader, but for different reasons. She's a good FIGHTER, which explains why she can quell rebellions across the Earth Kingdom & turn the military into a powerhouse. But pretty much every non-military benefit to the Earth Empire came from someone else. The railroad overhaul, I'm pretty sure, was Asami's idea. If not, it was probably Bataar Jr.'s. He's an architect, so it stands to reason that most industry advances come from him. And the Spirit Vine technology was Varrick's brainchild.

      Right - she's a general and a politician, with a degree of charisma. In the same sense that Napoleon was a great leader. He wasn't a scientific genius, nor was he an architect - he delegated such tasks to people who actually knew what they were doing. Kuvira's stabilization of the country allowed such improvements and wonders to be completed; without that nothing would have been completed.

      When we see Kuvira HERSELF make decisions on how to allocate these resources, she's very...creative. Why use your big, fancy army when you can either challenge the Avatar to a duel or build a giant robot? Much of Book 4 makes a lot more sense if Kuvira is relatively unintelligent outside of direct combat, & most of the Earth Empire's advances come from other people.

      Here she is willing to fight herself, as an inspiration for her soldiers - she's willing to put her life on the line, and lead from the front, instead of hiding behind a desk like many generals. Of course, this is partially because she can actually fight without the absolute certainty that she's going to get shot by a marksman hiding in a tree, and can engage in a (relatively) fair fight.

      Kuvira only won the battle with Korra because the Avatar had a PTSD moment. Her arrogance thinking she could take Korra in a straight fight is one of her signs that her ego and insanity are compromising her judgement, making her less competent. 

      I have said, in many threads, that creating that giant mecha makes no sense, whatsoever. I mean, she had her railgun/spirit cannon, which really was effective enough. If she had the resources to make a Zaku, why didn't she just make the railgun a giant artillery piece on tank tracks? It's just as much a waste of resources as the Death Star is in Star Wars; considering the subtle (and not so subtle) references to Star Wars throughout Book 4, I'm really wondering if they just created it to give Kuvira her own Death Star, because that's what it feels like. 

      You could tie that into her lust for power/loss of competence for the story, but whatever. 

      Well, you can say a lot of things about the plan to put Wu on the throne, EXCEPT that it promoted any 1 person's interests. The plan was a joint agreement between Raiko, Kuvira, Tenzin, Suyin, Izumi, & of course Wu himself. I think even the Water Tribe Chiefs were there for the coronation.

      I'm not so sure Suyin was as active in this plot as you think. Raiko calls upon her to help restore order to the Earth Nation, so that he can put Wu on the throne. She outright refuses, and gets pissed when Kuvira decides to step-up and do her duty for her country. By this logic, why would Suyin have anything to do with the plan to reunite the country? She didn't care - she sat behind Zaofu's metal walls while the Earth Nation was tearing itself apart. 

      World leaders being present for the coronation doesn't mean they had anything to do with it - that's just part of the social nicities and whatnot that accompany being the head of state of a country. Raiko was pleading to Izumi for assistance, and yet, no representatives from the Water Tribes were present. I'm sure they nodded their heads to it all, but they weren't active participants. They had more important things to worry about - like recoving from their own civil war inflicted upon them by Unalaq. 

      The best case scenario would, of course, be that the decision is ACTUALLY handed over to the Earth Kingdom people (such as a democracy), but if I had to choose between the 2, of course I would go with the option that places absolute power in the largest amount of hands. Should I be concerned that a lot of those hands are "foreign"? I don't know, that seems a bit xenophobic to me, & it's not like despotism or incompetence can't be home grown

      Restoration of the Earth Kingdom would place absolute power in a spoiled brat who knew nothing about diplomacy and tact, with advisors of dubious loyalties. Xenophobic or not, but a foreign nation is putting people in charge of another nation, and will almost certainly be affecting its domestic and foreign policies. We have seen from their tumultuous history that the URN and the Earth Nation have not gotten along. Kuei attempted to expel the Fire Nation colonists entirely and reclaim the land he lost. He failed spectacularly, certainly lost respect at home and abroad, and looked like a weak failure.  

      Nevermind the fact that the Earth Kingdom "won" the war that almost wiped them off the map, but they still couldn't take back what was theirs. It's not difficult to see why the URN would want to control the Earth Nation - we have seen that when the Earth Nation gets its shit together, they can easily wipe the URN off the map, and there's the very real chance that it could have done it had Hou-Ting managed to attack Republic City. 

      That's how nations work in real life, and we've seen that nations act no differently in their world. I would ask what nationality you are and present an argument from history or hypothetical whatever, but I'm not sure that you'd care. 

      Obviously it can, but then it's the fault of the people from that nation for going along with it. If a government is being forced on them without their consent, then I'd argue that it's different. 

      Maybe, but either way, I stick to the following arguments: *insert two arguments*

      Except they've seen that it can be done. Kuvira had enough faith in Bataar so that he could replicate and get it to work, and we've seen that he was able to, without Zhu-Li's constant sabotage. Which means they were making progress - enough progress that Zhu-Li felt the need to sabotage it to make them think it wouldn't work. Then Bataar would find the problem and fix it, and work would continue without incident.

      Besides, they're working on a new, dangerous technology; risks are bound to be involved. That didn't stop people from inventing new and useful things in our world, so why should that be any different? 

      It is utilitarianism. Similar to the thing I said about Chess, this is why "I will not kill my underlings" or something to that effect appears on the Evil Overlord exist. You can be literally devoid of conscience or empathy & still see that, objectively, there are benefits to a low execution count. It boosts morale because people are more likely to view you as benevolent, & of course as I keep saying, you can't use their talents if they're dead. Even if they are unskilled &/or you have to imprison them for the rest of their lives, you can still get free labor out of them. How the prospective victims feel about their options is incidental, the endgame is simply to get use out of them.

      Yes, and this was likely her viewpoint in late Book 4. It may not be intentional mercy on her part, but it's still a form of mercy nonetheless (I guess? lol). I still believe she retained some semblance of her Book 3 personality at the beginning of Book 4, even though we were starting to see signs of her... fall, for lack of a better term. I will agree with you completely regarding the end of Book 4, leading up to her half-assed redemption during the finale. 

      Well, thank you. I'm about 50/50. I hold scorn for Kuvira that most people reserve for Unalaq. On the other hand, if I thought you had nothing interesting to say, I wouldn't be answering you.

      You're welcome. I still think you're rude, but at least you're honest, so whatever. Ironically, the scorn you hold for Kuvira is the scorn I hold for Unalaq. Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on Unalaq?

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    • Right - she's a general and a politician, with a degree of charisma. In the same sense that Napoleon was a great leader. He wasn't a scientific genius, nor was he an architect - he delegated such tasks to people who actually knew what they were doing. Kuvira's stabilization of the country allowed such improvements and wonders to be completed; without that nothing would have been completed.

      I consider her more of a fool who was just in the right place at the right time to profit off of others.

      Kuvira only won the battle with Korra because the Avatar had a PTSD moment. Her arrogance thinking she could take Korra in a straight fight is one of her signs that her ego and insanity are compromising her judgement, making her less competent.

      I agree--I say there's a time & a place for a general (mostly in fiction) to prove how cool they are, & that wasn't it.

      I have said, in many threads, that creating that giant mecha makes no sense, whatsoever.

      Which is what makes it such an effective example--almost nobody thinks it was a good idea. I don't know if it was a "reference" to the Death Star. The big, fancy superweapon is probably a trope that predates the Death Star.

      Also, I never had any problems with the Death Star's construction, just how stupidly easy it apparently is to destroy.

      I'm not so sure Suyin was as active in this plot as you think. Raiko calls upon her to help restore order to the Earth Nation, so that he can put Wu on the throne. She outright refuses, and gets pissed when Kuvira decides to step-up and do her duty for her country. By this logic, why would Suyin have anything to do with the plan to reunite the country? She didn't care - she sat behind Zaofu's metal walls while the Earth Nation was tearing itself apart.
      • Shrug.* She clearly was involved. I would speculate she became involved because of her concerns about Kuvira.
      Restoration of the Earth Kingdom would place absolute power in a spoiled brat who knew nothing about diplomacy and tact, with advisors of dubious loyalties. Xenophobic or not, but a foreign nation is putting people in charge of another nation, and will almost certainly be affecting its domestic and foreign policies.

      So would an alliance, which is more how I would classify this. Doesn't mean alliances are bad.

      That's how nations work in real life, and we've seen that nations act no differently in their world. I would ask what nationality you are and present an argument from history or hypothetical whatever, but I'm not sure that you'd care.

      I avoid that for 2 reasons:

      1. History is not my area of expertise.

      2. Argument from historical analogy only goes so far, & in fact you can often come up with mutually exclusive analogies for the same thing.

      In terms of a hypothetical? I don't know, what am I hypothetically trying to establish?

      Except they've seen that it can be done. Kuvira had enough faith in Bataar so that he could replicate and get it to work, and we've seen that he was able to, without Zhu-Li's constant sabotage. Which means they were making progress - enough progress that Zhu-Li felt the need to sabotage it to make them think it wouldn't work. Then Bataar would find the problem and fix it, and work would continue without incident. Besides, they're working on a new, dangerous technology; risks are bound to be involved. That didn't stop people from inventing new and useful things in our world, so why should that be any different?

      Mainly because it was a totally unnecessary act of aggression. If they were primarily building a power plant, or had reason to believe that someone else might use one on them first, it MIGHT be different. I put emphasis on "might," because this thing also works by burning up spirits. That is firstly very disturbing if you think about it & secondly just asking for some kind of horrible Spirit-Human War. This is kind of the epitome of "just because we CAN do it, doesn't mean we SHOULD."

      Yes, and this was likely her viewpoint in late Book 4. It may not be intentional mercy on her part, but it's still a form of mercy nonetheless (I guess? lol).

      Mitigation would be a more appropriate term, as it does not imply benevolence, only opting for a reduced or lessened sentence.

      You're welcome. I still think you're rude, but at least you're honest, so whatever.

      I prioritize logic & honesty, so.

      Ironically, the scorn you hold for Kuvira is the scorn I hold for Unalaq. Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on Unalaq?

      Largely indifferent, but whereas Kuvira was a hypocrite & had a personality that I describe as "vaguely constipated, all of the time," Unalaq not only owned his terribleness when called on it, he reveled in it. Pretending to be good, he was boring. Dropping the act, he wasn't pushing many thought-provoking themes, but was a lot more enjoyable to watch. I also think he proved to be a lot smarter & more manipulative. All around, a better villain, not that this says much.

      Kuvira is basically the opposite. She never drops her rhetoric, so she stays that same boring monotone throughout the arc. Frankly, she is more of a plot device. She exists to push this theme about a well-intentioned person that goes too far & becomes a dictator, & to make people argue over the politics of the Earth Kingdom restoration. She could have been basically any minor character.

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    • [chuckle] Kuvira *was* "any minor character", in book3.

      Repeating myself, but Kuvira could have leverage all her good work into being appointed as one of, or chief, Advisor to Wu. Since the 3 nations and UR agreed to her appointment to clean things up and secure the EK for Wu to have a safe return, I can see no reason why they would refuse her request.

      Wu did not need much to turn him around. Mako gave him a verbal bitch-slap and instead of being appalled or crushed, took the words to heart. Kuvira in an advisory position could have done the same. Plus likely Mako would have been there too to help talk to him.

      Of course that would have left B4 without a major villain, but Kuvira would not have resorted to Treason.

      But since a villain *was* needed, treason it was.

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    • [chuckle] Kuvira *was* "any minor character", in book3.

      Exacta. And she could have absolutely been swapped out for Zhu Li. Or some other Zaofu guard. Or your mom.

      Repeating myself, but Kuvira could have leverage all her good work into being appointed as one of, or chief, Advisor to Wu. Since the 3 nations and UR agreed to her appointment to clean things up and secure the EK for Wu to have a safe return, I can see no reason why they would refuse her request.

      I said the exact same thing in another thread, & Integer told me that Kuvira shouldn't settle for being "just an adviser" to an idiot.

      Wu did not need much to turn him around. Mako gave him a verbal bitch-slap and instead of being appalled or crushed, took the words to heart. Kuvira in an advisory position could have done the same. Plus likely Mako would have been there too to help talk to him.

      Are you literally reading my mind?

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    • Personal feelings as to what constitutes a legitimate government is not itself a legitimate reason to invalidate it. Whether you like it or not, a monarchy *IS* a valid form of government. It is no different from the Fire Nation having a royal family. There is no difference between Izumi's *right to rule* and Wu's.

      I was conceeding that this was personal feelings and not objective fact, and that I may just  be a person of my time on that particular subject and so I see it through that lens.

      However, your point here falls to the same logic you criticize me for. And you just say monarchy is valid, cool, I can say it isn't just as easily and have an equally compelling assertion.

      So, that brings up a good question, why is Izumi's rule legitimate either?

      Not to mention *Empires* are forms of government based upon monarchies. Empress Kuvira was a monarch. She committed treason partly with the reasoning she felt *she* had more of a "right to rule" than Wu.

      Difference here being Kuvira didn't inherit it due to heredity, which was the factor I was critical of in monarchies in general.

      So why could she not, as Wu's coronation approached, have requested, even insisted, that due to her performance in the Service of the Throne she be installed as one of, if not the prime, advisor?

      Why do they need to acknowledge the throne in the first place? And if effectively taking power from the throne, why do they need to keep the throne?

      Because her Ego grew. She began to believe her own hype. Just imagine how different things would have been had Korra not been still suffering her PTSD… "you can even use the Avatar State". Ego out of control.

      Implying that she didn't actually believe the cause to begin with? If she didn't actually believe it, then it would change things, certainly. However, according to her testimony in the end, which I'm not seeing much reason to disbelieve, she seemed to always be on board with that ideology throughout.

      Kuvira knew she could get to Korra that way and did. And assuming Korra would have kept her word, it would have been so effective of a plan, that she'd ultimately have won the war because of it. Of course a full strength Avatar would have demolished Kuvira in single combat, but Kuvira read her better. Pushing Korra's buttons was the plan, and what ended up happening? Kuvira beat down the Avatar in single combat, even when the Avatar used the Avatar State AND the Avatar ran away with outside help breaking the agreement and humiliating herself in front of Kuvira's army. And that's how people would perceive it. That was a huge victory for the Earth Empire and would reasonably give a serious morale boost.

      =

      Pfft, yeah, I'm sure the fact that she named HERSELF the Emperor that everyone had to swear loyalty to was a COMPLETE coincidence.

      Who's saying it's coincidence? I'm saying it was by design to acheive her goal of restoring the Earth Nation to glory and greatness.

      I get your implication, but, how about you substantiate it? Show me where it was for personal glory and that her motivation wasn't to build up the Earth Nation for the sake of building up the Earth Nation.

      1. The "anyone can edit, therefore it's wrong" excuse is a lame cop out.</p>

      Except, it's true and multiple errors of fact exist in wiki articles. When it is contested/conflicts, the source material > what wiki says. In this case, yes, wiki's wrong, and pointing out that anyone can edit it and it can be wrong, is a relevant point.

      2. Except Ziu Li had already sabotaged the machine several times, & each time the test was aborted, so a more logical conclusion is that she wanted them to give up on the weapon. Kuvira, in fact, was warned of the danger of this weapon several times, & was the one who had no problems putting lives at risk to develop it. Not to mention putting lives at risk when she used it on people.

      She did sabotage it at least once before the weapon's demonstration, but we know for a fact she knew Kuvira would be there for the final one and Bataar Jr. points out how she knew what would happen when it was about to explode and Zhu'Li is proud of what she did when confronted.

      "Warned of the danger?" That the machine would, rather than work as intented, blow up in her face? Zhu'Li knowingly sabotaged it so it would do that, all of the danger was Zhu'Li's sabotage. Bataar Jr., her chief of technology, assured her it would be functional for the big unveiling.

      Who's lives were at risk developing it? Varrick because she threatened to kill him? Other than that, who? People working on the weapon that Zhu'Li endangered by rigging the weapon to explode rather than fire?

      That last part...yes, it's a weapon...that's the point. It's supposed to be dangerous for those in the target area when used properly. So, this applies to all weapon makers, including Asami.
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    • First, stop doing "implying" because I don't imply. I state what I mean. Start taking my statements at face values.

      Second, Even though Avatar Wiki is a wiki which "anyone can edit", fact is this wiki is pretty much on lock down. It is just locked down in a way that will not trigger Staff coming in and demoting people. Just review the Wiki Activity page to see how swiftly "anyone edits" gets reverted. A few get through, but for the most part, the Admins have Avatar Wiki in a stranglehold, seemingly theirs the only edits which stand. So… not so much "anyone can edit".

      Empire and Empress is a monarchy. Just say that Kuvira and her Empire were allowed to go the distance. Who do you think would eventually ascend the throne upon her illness and eventual death? And why? It would be her heir, and because they are *HER* heir. So… not changing anything in the long run. And would suit her right if her heir was a Wu.

      Kuvira's challenge to Korra was Pure Ego. She had no intelligence telling her that Korra was anything less that 100%. If not for the lingering PSTD—which again she had no knowledge of—Kuvira would have had her clocked cleaned and handed back to her. So Pure Ego going into that challenge. Even deeper ego coming out of it.

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    • First, stop doing "implying" because I don't imply. I state what I mean. Start taking my statements at face values.

      You wrote:

      "She began to believe her own hype."

      In context, that does imply that before, she didn't believe it. So, did you just write something unclearly and wrote something you didn't exactly mean, or did you make this implication?

      </span>

      Second, Even though Avatar Wiki is a wiki which "anyone can edit", fact is this wiki is pretty much on lock down. It is just locked down in a way that will not trigger Staff coming in and demoting people. Just review the Wiki Activity page to see how swiftly "anyone edits" gets reverted. A few get through, but for the most part, the Admins have Avatar Wiki in a stranglehold, seemingly theirs the only edits which stand. So… not so much "anyone can edit".

      Except, I substantiated how what is being reported from the Wiki doesn't line up with what actually happened in the show. I'm not just saying "it's on wiki so it is wrong!" I'm pointing out what happened in the show and going with the source material as the authority, rather than the wiki.

      I certainly will go to the wiki for reference on a number of things, but it's not authoritative on the matter, if there is a conflict between it and the source material, source material wins in its own canon, and, as you admit, at least some errors of fact do slip through the cracks. You try to answer this with others editing the edit, so, we're back to more and more edits. Either way, the end result is that, despite commendable efforts, wiki is sometimes wrong, hence my point.

      Empire and Empress is a monarchy. Just say that Kuvira and her Empire were allowed to go the distance. Who do you think would eventually ascend the throne upon her illness and eventual death? And why? It would be her heir, and because they are *HER* heir. So… not changing anything in the long run. And would suit her right if her heir was a Wu.

      Great, then you have no qualms with her form of government. Meanwhile, you again, miss the aspect of monarchies that I criticized and specified again.

      And again, we don't even really know what the structure of the Earth Empire government would really look like. It was never explained in the show. It could have been with a dictator, it could have been an oligarchy, it could have had a senate, but we don't know. But, hypothetically if it went down that after Kuvira it would go to a Wu-like character, I'd have the same problem with it.

      Kuvira's challenge to Korra was Pure Ego. She had no intelligence telling her that Korra was anything less that 100%. If not for the lingering PSTD—which again she had no knowledge of—Kuvira would have had her clocked cleaned and handed back to her. So Pure Ego going into that challenge. Even deeper ego coming out of it.

      Says you.

      How do you know she had no intelligence on Korra? She knew she was away for years to recover. Numerous people throughout the EE did see her and some did recognize her, for instance the owner of the stall with the Avatar Wall, Korra publically got trounced by some nobodies. It's not all that unreasonable that word got to Kuvira of an Avatar sighting and one in which two losers dropped her. And, the fact of the matter is, she read the situation correctly and won.

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    • I consider her more of a fool who was just in the right place at the right time to profit off of others.

      Except that she's not a fool, because she knew exactly what she was doing. Hate her character all you want, I don't give a damn - but give credit where it's due. She literally became the Napoleon of the Avatar Universe in at least half the time it took Bonaparte in actual history.

      So would an alliance, which is more how I would classify this. Doesn't mean alliances are bad.

      Nothing wrong with alliances, but even within alliances, there are stronger partners and there are weaker partners. We have seen throughout the show that Raiko does little out of the goodness of his heart, nor does he intervene internationally unless he has something to gain - exceptions include anything that pertains to the welfare of Republic City, because he does love his country.

      If he was truly out to "do the right thing", he would have aided the Southern Water Tribe during the WT Civil War. Except he didn't; he felt that it would have been a waste of resources to involve himself and the URN in a war that he felt they had no stake in, and he didn't care unless it affected Republic City directly. Granted, any and all chance of military aid was off the table the moment Korra went behind his back and tried to subvert his authority over his own military, but he was firm in his decision then. 

      Raiko is a politician, and will do anything to stay in power - even blaming Korra for problems (of which some blame does admittedly fall on her shoulders) to divert public attention and maintain public opinion to be reelected. He knows the Earth Nation is a threat to his nation's sovereignty - as we eventually saw when Kuvira tried to wipe it off the map - and that it has repeatedly refused to acknowledge its right to exist - when Hou-Ting was still Earth Queen. 

      It makes perfect sense that he'd use Wu as a puppet to control the Earth Nation to protect Republic City's independence, as well as to protect the nation's access to those vital imports from the Earth Nation - imports that Kuvira was using to keep Republic City in check. 

      The problem is that Raiko makes literally every mistake committed by the reactionary forces of Europe after the Napoleonic Wars, and puts his nation in jeopardy because of it. I'm not blaming him for Kuvira's invasion, of course - she didn't have to do it, and blame lies entirely with her - but he did nothing to make the situation better. 

      Which is what makes it such an effective example--almost nobody thinks it was a good idea. I don't know if it was a "reference" to the Death Star. The big, fancy superweapon is probably a trope that predates the Death Star. Also, I never had any problems with the Death Star's construction, just how stupidly easy it apparently is to destroy.

      Superweapons as tropes have been around for a while, but not until the creation of the atomic bomb IRL did man-made superweapons gain the level destructive capability and terror that they do now; the Death Star was arguably a metaphor for a nuclear holocaust destroying the earth, something anyone during the Cold War would have felt keenly.

      Of course it was a reference to the Death Star - there were so many references to Star Wars in the this season that it was obvious. Hell, I'd argue that Kuvira is a weaker, less interesting expy of Darth Vader.

      Lol, you have no problems with the Death Star, but you have problems with Kuvira's Zaku? That literally makes no sense.

      Largely indifferent, but whereas Kuvira was a hypocrite & had a personality that I describe as "vaguely constipated, all of the time," Unalaq not only owned his terribleness when called on it, he reveled in it. Pretending to be good, he was boring. Dropping the act, he wasn't pushing many thought-provoking themes, but was a lot more enjoyable to watch. I also think he proved to be a lot smarter & more manipulative. All around, a better villain, not that this says much.

      Unalaq was boring to watch, not Kuvira. There was nothing new, astounding, or conflicted about his character - storybook evil villain with no redeeming qualities, one that wishes to merge with the closest thing the Avatar world has to the Devil/Satan/Whatever and destroy every living being on the planet.

      I was not surprised by his turn to evil, and literally nothing he did surprised me either - if Kuvira was an expy of Darth Vader, Unalaq was an expy of Darth Sidious/Emperor Palpatine. But yes, Unalaq was a better manipulator and schemer than Kuvira - I agree with you there. That doesn't mean I found him that more enjoyable.

      -

      Although we have yet to see the origin of the Earth Kingdom, we have been told that the Fire Nation started out as a theocracy ruled by the Fire Sages, with the head Fire Sage (was he called the Fire Lord even then?) acting as their leader. Though I am wary to use the Wiki as a source - I do hope it's not bullshit - it says that the head of the Fire Sages took power for himself and turned the nation into a monarchy. 

      Which means, of course, that the first Fire Lord of their dynasty launched a coup-d'etat against the government, relegated the Fire Sages to an advisory role and shunted them off to be the guides for the Avatar when in the Fire Nation. Another example of a man with power seizing control of the government for his own desires, creating a dynasty out of nothing. 

      I could compare this to the Hochmeister of the Teutonic Order converting to Protestantism and changing his country into the Duchy of Prussia - Albrecht I von Hohenzollern. That's actually a perfect example of a theocracy transitioning into a monarchy. 

      Like any monarchy when it first starts, there's no "legitimacy" to begin with - only power and aid the regime gets from other established groups; same goes for when there's a change in dynasty. This is my point - legitimacy of a monarchy is only supported by the length of the dynasty's reign, and how firmly it is connected with the people.

      In the case of France, the Bourbon dynasty lost its legitimacy when it drove the nation into the ground, failed to allievate the suffering of its people, and when the king willingly betrayed his country to Austria. The Earth Kingdom's monarchy has almost certainly lost legitimacy with how poorly Kuei handled the country, and how Hou-Ting ran it into the ground. That's two centuries of terrible monarchs - France lost faith in the Bourbons in less than fifty years. 

      Also as far as empires are concerned... the Holy Roman Empire (in theory) was not a hereditary empire. It was an elective monarchy where the Emperor was chosen by seven electors - four of which were monarchies, three of which were theocracies as of the creation of this system in 1356. 

      Also, the German Empire (1871-1918) was technically not a hereditary empire, at least in the traditional sense. It was an... imperial federation, where the King of Prussia acted as the executive leader of the federation. The head of the federation however was called the "German Emperor", and the office of the "German Emperor" was a permanent title of the King of Prussia... meaning that the hereditary monarchy of Prussia was always the head of the German Empire every time the Prussian monarchy changed hands. 

      If that last one sounds convoluted, that's because it is. It really is strange. I actually learned that today - and so did you! :D

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    • Part of the legitimacy argument would certainly depend on how you or anyone views legitimacy. One basic view is simply that a government is legitmate based on popularity (the number supporting it). In that view, Kuvira is certainly legitmate based on that and what the show implies. That's merely the moral stance on legitmacy, and doesn't necessarily reflect the reality.

      That's where the Avatar part of legitmacy comes in. In the history of the Avatar universe, the ultimately decides legitimacy through that 'balance' clause in the show. The moment Kuvira becomes a substantive enemy for Korra, she effectively loses legitimacy.

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    • Exactly. Korra, being the most powerful human on the planet - and arguably a person of mass destruction - has both the power and authority to determine what is legitimate and what is not.

      Her ability to decide legitimacy comes from her own legitimacy - that being the fact that she is the Avatar, which has existed to keep the world in balance for ten thousand (and three) years. When she lost against Kuvira (which was a fluke, lets be honest), Kuvira's legitimacy rose and her defeat of the Avatar was a propoganda coup. 

      Once again, legitimacy revolves around power and length of time. 

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    • Relative to the Avatar, of course.

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    • Legitimacy is "relative" to anyone with power. The French people had power, and decided that the monarchy was no longer "legitimate", especially after the king betrayed his country. So they executed him. This sent shockwaves throughout Europe, because those leaders who were "legitimate" saw this as a threat to their power. So they formed a coaltion to put it down. 

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    • Yes, but there's that common thread of a relatively recurring Avatar as a lynchpin. Granted, the Avatar isn't infirmed, dead, or otherwise incompacitated. Makes some sense with the lore and that they have been the main character for two shows.

      Zaheer and his group decided the Earth Queen wasn't "legitimate". Sometime it takes one dude to send shockwaves and force a sort-of competent/imcompetent person to reunify a country?

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    • Another - yet slightly different - display of power. the Red Lotus had the power to act on their belief that the Earth Queen was no longer fit to rule, so they killed her. Again, power deciding who is legitimate and who is not.

      I still say Kuvira was competent during the timeskip. Semi-competent at worst during the beginning of Book 4. Definitely incompetent by the later half of Book 4.

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    • CommanderZeta wrote: the Red Lotus had the power to act on their belief that the Earth Queen was no longer fit to rule, so they killed her

      In point of fact, even before Zaheer killed the EQ, he told Korra the RL was all about chaos as the natural order. They did not decide the EQ was no longer fit, they did not believe in *ANY* queens. Or kings, or even elected officials. They were all for Anarchy.

      Weltall8000 wrote: "She began to believe her own hype."

      What the statement says is that "she began to". That does not "imply" she did not before, it *means* she did not before. You are mixing up implications with meanings.

      Weltall8000 wrote: How do you know she had no intelligence on Korra? She knew she was away for years to recover. Numerous people throughout the EE did see her and some did recognize her, for instance the owner of the stall with the Avatar Wall, Korra publically got trounced by some nobodies. It's not all that unreasonable that word got to Kuvira of an Avatar sighting and one in which two losers dropped her. And, the fact of the matter is, she read the situation correctly and won.

      Because we were not SHOWN that Kuvira had this knowledge. There was not even dialog along the lines of "I want to hear everything the Avatar is doing" to indicate to us she was even *thinking* about Korra. At all. Until she showed up at Zaofu. What you suggested is a headcanon: something you believe is possible but was not delivered by canon. Not even by "official" sources. So what you think your headcanon *means* about Kuvira's savvy is false.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      You are clearly addressing me, but I'm not actually reading your posts, because there's no point trying to reason with someone who says psychotic shit like "everything is justified for the cause."

      I'm actually fairly good at chess, but my skill went up a lot when I took Sun Tzu's statement that "the best war is the one never fought" to heart. 9 times out of 10, sacrificing a piece just weakens you.

      That is, you deny the fundamentals of geopolitics. Then our conversation is really meaningless. If you do not want to recognize the power of what it is that is your right. But you pleased me your naivety and for that I thank you.

      You forgot: Chess is a game for two players.

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    • In point of fact, even before Zaheer killed the EQ, he told Korra the RL was all about chaos as the natural order. They did not decide the EQ was no longer fit, they did not believe in *ANY* queens. Or kings, or even elected officials. They were all for Anarchy.

      Semantics. The point was that he had the power to institute a regime change, because he felt that the monarchy - or rather, all governments - were no longer legitimate. So they took action because of that power.

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    • Who will agree with me to have Kuvira beheaded? I like that idea. Mostly... 

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    • Bersarker wrote:
      Who will agree with me to have Kuvira beheaded? I like that idea. Mostly... 

      Yeah... uh, no.

      I mean, if you want to restart the civil war, make her a martyr for her cause, and piss off her army - which is still very much a threat...

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    • Bersarker wrote:
      Who will agree with me to have Kuvira beheaded? I like that idea. Mostly... 

      For Kuvira is better to die and not see how miserable traitors of the nation (Suyin, Wu, other) converted great and powerful state in the shit.

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    • CommanderZeta wrote:
      Bersarker wrote:
      Who will agree with me to have Kuvira beheaded? I like that idea. Mostly... 
      Yeah... uh, no.

      I mean, if you want to restart the civil war, make her a martyr for her cause, and piss off her army - which is still very much a threat...

      Kuvira was implied to be very popular with the masses during book 4 so there could be an actual civil war brewing over her capture.

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    • I think as long as she remains alive, which means that she can continue to have her army standing down - even after she is tried and imprisoned - I think another civil war can be averted. Most of her soldiers would be too loyal to disobey her. 

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    • That's possible as I don't really see execution being used in that universe, mainly because of the other examples we have. *cough* Zaheer *cough*

      I can see Kuvira giving a short speech, which would play into the other speech scenes, where she essentially puts down an element that wants to fight against Korra, Suyin, or any relevant good guy. 

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    • What the statement says is that "she began to". That does not "imply" she did not before, it *means* she did not before. You are mixing up implications with meanings.

      As you phrased it, this implies that before she did not believe this, it does not explicitly state this, hence I referred to it as "implying." "Kuvira began to believe it," while it doesn't outright say "she didn't believe before," it implies that she didn't, without directly saying that. Why do you take such exception to this?

      Also, do you have anything to actually back up the original assertion?

      Because we were not SHOWN that Kuvira had this knowledge. There was not even dialog along the lines of "I want to hear everything the Avatar is doing" to indicate to us she was even *thinking* about Korra. At all. Until she showed up at Zaofu. What you suggested is a headcanon: something you believe is possible but was not delivered by canon. Not even by "official" sources. So what you think your headcanon *means* about Kuvira's savvy is false.

      So, I suggest the possibility of hearing news of arguably the most famous person in the world, by someone with arguably the most resources in the world, (noting there had been sightings of her or people matching her description, in said person's nation) being reasonable, and you can difinitively tell me that she has no intel at all on her? Well, prove it. You're making alot of claims that you are not supporting at all.

      No, it isn't "headcanon," I'm pointing out how it isn't so absurd that Kuvira would have some kind of notion of Korra's state, whether from before, reading her at the time, or both. The only assertion I made on that subject here is that Kuvira accurately read the situation, she knew she could win and she did. I speculated on possible reasons why she'd have known why, but I'm not sitting here saying it's all definitely true, just very plausible explanations for what happened. Meanwhile, you're telling me Kuvira definitely doesn't know anything about her (even though Korra being in the south recovering for the past few years is common knowledge) and also making the assumption that Kuvira can't read the situation at all, all of it must have been hubris. Which, as we see from the fight, Kuvira is clearly goading Korra and tearing her apart methodically. I even point out how Kuvira winning this decisively benefits her efforts. This really takes down arguably the biggest obstacle to her war effort, down a peg and it is a huge boost to her military's position/morale.

      And of itself, as for this "headcanon" nonsense, just what do you think you're doing? Who are you to lecture me (or anyone really) about "headcanon."

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    • Integer115 wrote:

      Neo Bahamut wrote:

      You are clearly addressing me, but I'm not actually reading your posts, because there's no point trying to reason with someone who says psychotic shit like "everything is justified for the cause."

      I'm actually fairly good at chess, but my skill went up a lot when I took Sun Tzu's statement that "the best war is the one never fought" to heart. 9 times out of 10, sacrificing a piece just weakens you.

      That is, you deny the fundamentals of geopolitics. Then our conversation is really meaningless. If you do not want to recognize the power of what it is that is your right. But you pleased me your naivety and for that I thank you.

      There's a difference between understanding & excusing.

      You forgot: Chess is a game for two players.

      And?

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      Integer115 wrote:

      Neo Bahamut wrote:

      You are clearly addressing me, but I'm not actually reading your posts, because there's no point trying to reason with someone who says psychotic shit like "everything is justified for the cause."

      I'm actually fairly good at chess, but my skill went up a lot when I took Sun Tzu's statement that "the best war is the one never fought" to heart. 9 times out of 10, sacrificing a piece just weakens you.

      That is, you deny the fundamentals of geopolitics. Then our conversation is really meaningless. If you do not want to recognize the power of what it is that is your right. But you pleased me your naivety and for that I thank you.

      There's a difference between understanding & excusing.


      You forgot: Chess is a game for two players.

      And?

      This is the law of society and nature. For example: I want a perpetual motion machine of the first kind. But this contradicts the first law of thermodynamics. No matter how I feel about the first law of thermodynamics. The law of nature is working independently of my opinion of him.

      Your opponent is also involved in the game. For example: Kuvira has a chance to kill all his enemies with a single blow. If she refuses this blow is a blow they inflict. And it will be an unexpected blow. Remember two assassination attempts. By this she strikes first, sacrificing her boyfriend.

      "Now, philanthropists may easily imagine there is a skilful method of disarming and overcoming an enemy without causing great bloodshed, and that this is the proper tendency of the art of War. However plausible this may appear, still it is an error which must be extirpated; for in such dangerous things as war, the errors which proceed from a spirit of benevolence are just the worst. As the use of physical power to the utmost extent by no means excludes the co-operation of the intelligence, it follows that he who uses force unsparingly, without reference to the quantity of bloodshed, must obtain a superiority if his adversary does not act likewise. By such means the former dictates the law to the latter, and both proceed to extremities, to which the only limitations are those imposed by the amount of counteracting force on each side." 

      Carl von Clausewitz, On War,   

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    • Except that she's not a fool, because she knew exactly what she was doing. Hate her character all you want, I don't give a damn - but give credit where it's due. She literally became the Napoleon of the Avatar Universe in at least half the time it took Bonaparte in actual history.

      "You're wrong because I'm right." Brilliant. No, idiot politicians getting credit for things going right out of dumb luck is not unheard of. Case in point: "I defeated the Avatar (because her PTSD flared up)!"

      It makes perfect sense that he'd use Wu as a puppet to control the Earth Nation to protect Republic City's independence, as well as to protect the nation's access to those vital imports from the Earth Nation - imports that Kuvira was using to keep Republic City in check.

      Raiko is an asshat, but everything you've just mentioned explains why he breaks his isolationist stance & gets involved, it doesn't constitute proof that he's the next Long Feng.

      Of course it was a reference to the Death Star - there were so many references to Star Wars in the this season that it was obvious. Hell, I'd argue that Kuvira is a weaker, less interesting expy of Darth Vader.

      The original Star Wars trilogy, frankly, is a very generic story. This makes it difficult to determine when something is a "reference" vs. when it just so happens to work out similarly.

      Lol, you have no problems with the Death Star, but you have problems with Kuvira's Zaku? That literally makes no sense.

      You've not explained what is supposedly wrong with the Death Star. It is a weapon that can blow up whole planets, that seems pretty useful. Unlike Kuvira's robot, it has artillery to protect its admittedly stupid weak points. It also doubles as a home base for the Empire. It is probably not unreasonable to build, if you can mine resources across the galaxy. Since it's in space, the only potential structural problem it would have to deal with is collapsing under its own gravity, & I'm not sure if it's big enough to do that.

      Unalaq was boring to watch, not Kuvira. There was nothing new, astounding, or conflicted about his character - storybook evil villain with no redeeming qualities,

      He was more fun to watch because he had an actual personality. You can say that his personality is cliched, but it's pretty much undeniable that he showed more emotion than Kuvira.

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    • When I stray into head- or non-canon territory, I state it. Otherwise, I work within what the show gives us.

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    • This is the law of society and nature. For example: I want a perpetual motion machine of the first kind. But this contradicts the first law of thermodynamics. No matter how I feel about the first law of thermodynamics. The law of nature is working independently of my opinion of him.

      Calling it a "law" does not make it an unchangeable fact of nature, no, it's human behavior, which can be predicted & modeled, but ultimately, is not deterministic.

      Regarding Kuvira's supposed "intelligence," firstly the phrase "military intelligence" implies things that are beyond common knowledge. Secondly, it's abundantly clear that she had no special knowledge on how to fight the Avatar. Once Korra goes into the Avatar State, she kicks Kuvira's ass up & down the landscape. Kuvira clearly could not deal with the Avatar State. Even if I grant the ridiculous proposition that she somehow "predicted" that Korra's PTSD would flare up right there, unless she's a Villain Sue who knows everything no matter how improbable, this was a risky assumption that just so happened to pay off.

      In other words, hubris.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      Calling it a "law" does not make it an unchangeable fact of nature, no, it's human behavior, which can be predicted & modeled, but ultimately, is not deterministic.

      Regarding Kuvira's supposed "intelligence," firstly the phrase "military intelligence" implies things that are beyond common knowledge. Secondly, it's abundantly clear that she had no special knowledge on how to fight the Avatar. Once Korra goes into the Avatar State, she kicks Kuvira's ass up & down the landscape. Kuvira clearly could not deal with the Avatar State. Even if I grant the ridiculous proposition that she somehow "predicted" that Korra's PTSD would flare up right there, unless she's a Villain Sue who knows everything no matter how improbable, this was a risky assumption that just so happened to pay off.

      In other words, hubris.

      Human is part of nature. And you will not find in his mind anything that is not part of nature. For Real. Even altruism comes from instinct.

      Kuvira thought that her superweapon will win. She made a mistake and lost. And it is also natural. So determined elite. Will + circumstances.

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    • Human is part of nature. And you will not find in his mind anything that is not part of nature. For Real. Even altruism comes from instinct.

      Not all "natural" things are the same. I shouldn't have to explain why your analogy doesn't work, it should just be obvious. You can choose how you behave, you can't change the thermodynamic properties of an object by deciding not to follow them. It's an argument from false analogy.

      And that's not just a lofty hypothetical, as an example, war rape is an incredibly common practice which is predicted both by theories of rape as a method of psychological control & as an evolutionary adaptation. Yet most societies you are aware of probably don't sanction this.

      Because those societies have decided, for various reasons, that this is not proper behavior, & there's enough support to enact policies against it. There are certainly individuals who find ways around the policies, but the sanctioned, wholesale abduction of women to serve as sex slaves in the conqueror's home territory is a thing of the past. And rightfully so.

      Scientific explanations for behaviors are not moral justifications nor suggestions that the behaviors cannot change.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      Not all "natural" things are the same. I shouldn't have to explain why your analogy doesn't work, it should just be obvious. You can choose how you behave, you can't change the thermodynamic properties of an object by deciding not to follow them. It's an argument from false analogy.

      And that's not just a lofty hypothetical, as an example, war rape is an incredibly common practice which is predicted both by theories of rape as a method of psychological control & as an evolutionary adaptation. Yet most societies you are aware of probably don't sanction this.

      Because those societies have decided, for various reasons, that this is not proper behavior, & there's enough support to enact policies against it. There are certainly individuals who find ways around the policies, but the sanctioned, wholesale abduction of women to serve as sex slaves in the conqueror's home territory is a thing of the past. And rightfully so.

      Scientific explanations for behaviors are not moral justifications nor suggestions that the behaviors cannot change.

      Morality is completely artificial instrument. There can not be any of objective morality. Morality is determined by the circumstances and the authorities. But people who are the authority, by definition, above morality. They create the moral and dictate it.

      That is, from the birth of the person or committed to a leading position and is beyond morality. Or take a lower social position and should be moral. That is, should the will of the other person. A person who has the power. Such relationships are easily represented as a standard model "predator - prey".

      Yes, a person can unsubscribe from subjection and do not aspire to power, that is a departure from the morality. But this is a self-isolation. Something like Buddhism. That is all determined by the will to power. 

      Moreover morality is defined as the best model of behavior in specific circumstances as dictated by the conditions. Nature. That is just two factors - people endowed with the power and the environment. And these are people standing over morality but also at the mercy of nature. That is the power of nature is still decisive.

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    • Nobody is saying that humans aren't part of nature, so quit beating that straw horse, what I'm saying is that your argument is just the naturalistic fallacy.

      Also, morality is just like any other philosophy, there is sound logic & unsound logic, regardless of whatever the guy with the biggest gun says.

      Look, I'm sorry you apparently never developed the ability to think for yourself, but if the best you've got is "authority figures must be blindly worshiped," we have nothing to talk about. You have nothing profound to say & you're just going to keep being exasperated when I insist on rejecting Argument From Authority. Trust me, it's not a productive use of anyone's time.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Nobody is saying that humans aren't part of nature, so quit beating that straw horse, what I'm saying is that your argument is just the naturalistic fallacy.

      Also, morality is just like any other philosophy, there is sound logic & unsound logic, regardless of whatever the guy with the biggest gun says.

      Look, I'm sorry you apparently never developed the ability to think for yourself, but if the best you've got is "authority figures must be blindly worshiped," we have nothing to talk about. You have nothing profound to say & you're just going to keep being exasperated when I insist on rejecting Argument From Authority. Trust me, it's not a productive use of anyone's time.

      I do not propose to blindly obey authority. I noted that the rules of morality are formed outside of the catch and the people in power. By this philosophy has only an indirect relationship. Here for example, if isolation completely innocent people accidentally caught in the center of the epidemic is due to a simple arithmetic rule: "the death of one innocent person is preferable to the death of two innocent people," - then for an explanation of this rule is already necessary to go beyond the limits of human morality and access biological desire to preserve their species. If a person is seeking to increase their power in the long run it will inevitably go beyond the standards of morality. Besides the very human desire to show their power often goes beyond conventional morality. For example already an indication of the situation with the epidemic. 

      Power - is a manifestation of power in the process of competition people: if A subject can objectively reach its goal despite the intentions of the subject B, by definition, power, and more powerful than B, or, equivalently, A has power over B Private case is the presence of a opportunities in force to act in accordance with its objectives. The actual ratio of the power of the subjects determined in the course of their practical impact. Since the collision usually leads to a decrease in the power of the parties, the reality of the scale of the collision constrain the power of a third party, whose power can become a dominant force in the weakening of the warring parties. The latter circumstance leads to an objective uncertainty relations of power.

      Details you can be found in the theory of elites Pareto and theory of the state McGuire-Olson.

      But if you need the reasoning here they are: A strong and united state can provide the best conditions for human existence. Divided into parts and weakened chaos and anarchy state loses power and as a consequence the possibility of any serious achievements. For this reason, the leader who wants unity and prosperity for the country is beneficial for the nation as a whole. But it is not beneficial to individual representatives of this nation: bandits, dishonest commersant, regional leaders, foreign leaders. For these people, chaos and anarchy in the state is a gold mine. They can influence public opinion. This public opinion prevents the goal - the creation of a strong and prosperous nation. Besides the lack of adequate economic and political literacy may cause some inhabitants also act against the this leader. Both situations prevent the achievement of goals and as a consequence harm the nation. And if chaos and anarchy are strong then there is the risk of loss of the state and even the nation. That is, these people are enemies of the nation and the state. And depending on the severity of their crimes should be punished. Agitation can be punished ordinary jails. But sabotage and assassinations may be punished, including the execution. That's what I said. And that's what you call me a psychopath than made me laugh much.

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    • "You're wrong because I'm right." Brilliant. No, idiot politicians getting credit for things going right out of dumb luck is not unheard of. Case in point: "I defeated the Avatar (because her PTSD flared up)!"

      I'm talking about how she reunified an entire country within the scope of three years. See, that's the problem - because when her lust for power isn't clouding her judgement, she actually is a good politician, and a good general. That's why she isn't just a "fool". Was she lucky? Hell yes, no one's denying that - but to deny that skill was involved to guide a country that had imploded into a modern, industrialized military superpower is outright ridiculous.

      Raiko is an asshat, but everything you've just mentioned explains why he breaks his isolationist stance & gets involved, it doesn't constitute proof that he's the next Long Feng.

      Long Feng? Why are you comparing him to Long Feng? Long Feng was out to take over the country because of greed and a lust for power, and he was quite the repressive dictator. Raiko, on the other hand, was looking out for his country because he's its leader. He knows how serious of a threat the Earth Nation is to the URN, and after the crisis with Hou-Ting - they had to have told him about her plans to wipe his country off the map - he had every right to fear the possibility of it happening.

      So what did he do? He intervened in the civil war, tried to use Kuvira to do the dirty work to rebuild the country, and had Wu protected in Republic City until it was deemed "safe" for him to return to his own country. Where he would assume power of a weak and unpopular monarchy, with advisors from a foreign country running the Earth Nation. Raiko was smart, and his plan is sound. His problem was that he thought he could control and predict Kuvira like he could Wu.

      he original Star Wars trilogy, frankly, is a very generic story. This makes it difficult to determine when something is a "reference" vs. when it just so happens to work out similarly.

      <sigh> Hero that's lost their way, being led to a swamp where they find a hermit to teach them. Hermit screws with them for a while until they agree; hero improves. A well-meaning character with a troubled past/childhood (Kuvira's felt like it was shoe-horned in poorly, but I digress) that is placed in a position of power, and leads and army during a civil war. Power corrupts them and they take power for "their empire". Her officers' uniforms look like Imperial uniforms. Her soldiers look quite a bit like stormtroopers, except I'd say their helmets look more like Darth Vader's. Ridiculous, over-the-top superweapon designed to inspire fear and can obliterate shit with a single blast. Is taken about by the hero and their friends. Hero redeems villain and yadayada.

      There are more similarities, but I don't feel like going into them. I know Star Wars borrows from other mythologies and events in history, but the amount of similarities line up. 

      You've not explained what is supposedly wrong with the Death Star... Since it's in space, the only potential structural problem it would have to deal with is collapsing under its own gravity, & I'm not sure if it's big enough to do that.

      ... The Death Star is a massive orbital space-station that has been in construction for nearly twenty years by A New Hope. Imagine all the resources, manpower, and time that has gone into making it. Now imagine if all of those resources had been diverted to building Star Destroyers to police the worlds the Empire had conquered. Star Destroyers on their own have enough firepower to carpet-nuke a planet's surface into molten glass; the Empire didn't need to waste all that time and effort into a ridiculous weapon when resources could have been better used elsewhere. 

      Hell, they could have built a few more of the Super Star Destroyers - like Vader's flagship in Episodes V and VI, the Executor. Even more firepower than the conventional Star Destroyer, and still able to produce the same effect. In the now defunt Expanded Universe (f*** Disney), Palpatine had his own, unique SSD called the Eclipse. Not only was it larger than the Executor, but it had a superlaser mounted in the prow - it wasn't enough to blow a planet up, but it cracked the crust and rendered it uninhabitable. They also wouldn't have taken twenty years to produce, and make more sense than a massive, slow-moving, over-designed Death Star.

      Kuvira's Zaku operates on a similar principle; waste of resources. They should have turned the railgun platform for the cannon into a massive tracked mobile artillery piece, if anything. Or, you know, made an actual bomb and invest in mult-engine aircraft. RC had little to nothing in the way of anti-aircraft defenses.

      He was more fun to watch because he had an actual personality. You can say that his personality is cliched, but it's pretty much undeniable that he showed more emotion than Kuvira.

      What personality? Oho, I'm evil for the lulz and want to destroy the world? He had absolutely no character development. His goal was insane - he wanted to plunge the world into ten-thousand years of darkness and kill every living being on the planet. He was boring on screen - absolutely boring. Everything he did was predictable. I mean, if you like him, then good for you.

      I'm already getting the feeling that exploring this tangent will be a waste of time, anyway. 

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    • CommanderZeta wrote: I'm talking about how she reunified an entire country within the scope of three years. See, that's the problem - because when her lust for power isn't clouding her judgement, she actually is a good politician, and a good general.

      What Kuvira was, foremost, was a BULLY. And a tyrant-in-the-making. It is unclear how long before she adopted the tactics, but what we were shown was she would waltz into a town and promise to help them *only* if they signed fealty to her. We saw her promise to feed and protect one town, but did *nothing* to lift a finger to provide even temporarily relief assistance. "Sign or starve" is basically the choice she gave them. It was certainly the reason why the governor finally *did* sign.

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    • If Kuvira deserve a punishment, what about Baatar Jr. and the soldiers of her? I believe they also deserve a punishment as well.

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    • Bersarker wrote:
      If Kuvira deserve a punishment, what about Baatar Jr. and the soldiers of her? I believe they also deserve a punishment as well.

      Kill Kuvira and kill Baatar Jr. and kill all the soldiers of the Empire and kill the entire population of the Empire, and will peace and quiet. Such an option you want?

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    • Bataar deserves to be put on trial and imprisoned with Kuvira, but considering Suyin's protective streak and whatnot, she'll probably pull strings and he'll just get house-arrest in Zaofu. Strikes me as something she'd do, even though he would deserve worse. 

      I mean, you can dissolve her army if you want - even though most of them wouldn't be guilty of war crimes - but it'll just make everything worse. We tried that with the Iraqi Army in 2003. It failed spectacularly. 

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    • Bersarker wrote: If Kuvira deserve a punishment, what about Baatar Jr. and the soldiers of her? I believe they also deserve a punishment as well.

      I don't know why everyone keeps thinking Bataar Jr is getting a Pass for his role with Kuvira. ALL the context of his conversation with his mother was about how the *family* would cope with him. "We'll work through this as a family" is JUST that: As A Family.

      It addresses *nothing* about his war activities. Suyin does *not* speak for the UR.

      My oldest son once got in trouble with the law. It was stupid and youthful. He apologized to me for what it put me through. That did not get his charges dropped or reduced. As his mother I stuck by him. I attended all his legal proceedings and visited him in jail while waiting for his trial date. As did his brothers and sisters. We got through it as a family.

      So I'd expect the same with BJ. And there is only so much Suyin *could say* if she was inclined to. He had played an integral part of continued research and development of the Spirit Cannon. Lives were lost. Immense property damage done. And probability is high he had integral roles with the R&D and construction of the Colossus .

      He is not going to get off easy.

      The rest? Look to the surrender of the Civil War South Army, and the WWII German forces for probable models on how the EE forces would be handled.

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    • Just think of it as a prison sentence with a potential pardon for Bataar Jr. Periodic family visits till he gets out. I'm not exactly sure the similarities between the Avatar universe and ours?

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    • Maybe Bataar Jr. got off with community service? xD

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    • Do you hold any kind of office or have real political clout? Suyin does, so, this potentially is a factor in mitigating his punishment, which you two may or may not share. This should be well above her level of authority, but she does have influence with some of the most influential people in their world.

      Also, Eska and Desna set an incredibly low bar for post war culpability. Bataar Jr. really may get a light sentence (if any).

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    • They did redeem themselves which consitutes freedom from culpability in many animations. They were essentially pawns anyways which you could almost use for Bataar Jr. Even Kuvira could essentially clear him by saying that she used him all those years.

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    • Eska and Desna were kept in the dark about their father's plans. Even at that it was a Civil War, not a global one, so the only ones affected by their knowing actions were the two WTs.

      Baatar Jr however was willingly at Kuvira's side and continued development of the WMD. Probably Megamaid. Kuvira's goals were not kept secret from him, unlike, say, Bolin. Even if Kuvira says she mislead him, "just following orders" has proven to be a weak defense for high-level officers IRL.

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    • Love Robin wrote:

      Bersarker wrote: If Kuvira deserve a punishment, what about Baatar Jr. and the soldiers of her? I believe they also deserve a punishment as well.

      I don't know why everyone keeps thinking Bataar Jr is getting a Pass for his role with Kuvira. ALL the context of his conversation with his mother was about how the *family* would cope with him. "We'll work through this as a family" is JUST that: As A Family.

      It addresses *nothing* about his war activities. Suyin does *not* speak for the UR.

      My oldest son once got in trouble with the law. It was stupid and youthful. He apologized to me for what it put me through. That did not get his charges dropped or reduced. As his mother I stuck by him. I attended all his legal proceedings and visited him in jail while waiting for his trial date. As did his brothers and sisters. We got through it as a family.

      So I'd expect the same with BJ. And there is only so much Suyin *could say* if she was inclined to. He had played an integral part of continued research and development of the Spirit Cannon. Lives were lost. Immense property damage done. And probability is high he had integral roles with the R&D and construction of the Colossus .

      He is not going to get off easy.

      The rest? Look to the surrender of the Civil War South Army, and the WWII German forces for probable models on how the EE forces would be handled.

      I just wanted them to be destroyed for good. If I have my own kingdom, my option about punish criminals are going to be give me the good reason to spare you or get killed only.

      In this way, I can keep everything in line and your people will do as what you wanted. And if I'm one who are being conqured, I will use reason first and will do that for many times.

      But if it's no use, I'll order the preemptive strike before my enemies will strike me. Unless my enemies are powerful than me, so will talk to them offer myself

      and my kingdom to join them. This is what I will do if I have a kingdom of my own. But as that I am just normal person in reality so I'll do this for myself only.

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    • They were his right and left hands. They knew they were using dark spirits, they knew they were invading the south under false pretexts and using a bullshit war to cover the opening of these portals. Even if they hypothetically had no idea about Vaatu (at the outset), there's still all of that to consider. EE wasn't a global war, it was two neighboring states over territory. If you want to consider this "global" because the URN = global, comprised of all the other nations, then the Water Tribe Civil War is also global, due to Water Tribe's connection to URN.  Also, for the Water Tribe Civil War being "a civil war" it had far reaching consequences that impacted the entire world due to the increase in dark spirits and ultimately the opening of the portals, as well as damage to Republic City.

      Desna and Eska knew at least everything up to Vaatu, the only thing that seemed to surprise them was how their father didn't care about humanity any more and they even actively worked to stop the Avatar from opposing Vaatu all the way up to Unalaq's fusion with him. You also can't tell me they didn't see all the dark spirits that were flying around...and directly helping them all that time either.

      They really did their part to endanger the world (and they should have known better given all they saw), in a way far beyond even the most critical view of anything Bataar Jr. or Kuvira did...and now they rule the Northern Water Tribe. Does a last minute change in heart absolve all of that? And if so, that utterly tanks the argument that Bataar Jr. should even be punished.

      Also note, Varrick would be considered a traitor twice over toward the URN, did most of the research to develop the spirit vine technology for Kuvira, and he's totally free and getting married with all the VIPs in attendance. Sure, he defected from her and helped in the defense of RC...but Bataar Jr. did so too.

      Seems like the Hiroshi Sato and Zaheer were the only ones that really got punishments that stuck, and what they did was relatively minor in comparison to some of the others that got a slap on the wrists/their actions forgotten. Which makes me think, why's Zaheer still in prison? He helped out the Avatar, where's his pardon/promotion? Given their track record, he should be grand admiral of the Air Nation or something.

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    • Sorry to say, but you do not have a clear grasp of how legal and international matters work.

      Varrick defected and actively worked in the defense of AND FIGHT FOR the RC. That is known as a War Time Pardon for his expertise. Let's remember that what he intended to develop was a source of Clean Energy. The moment the destructive potential was known he was ready to pull the plug. From that point anything developed from his experiments was entirely coerced.

      Also, he did his level best to destroy his work, and was ready to give his own life in the process. It was only due to Bolin's quick thinking they survived.

      That was indeed worth his pardon. Beyond that he was in one of the two surviving flying machines, placing his life on the front lines of the battle. That's complete redemption.

      Eska and Desna… their fate was *only* left to the WTs. The Civil War did not *involve* the UR, which in fact stood divorced of the war. When Korra *tried* to get UR Forces involved, Raiko came in and squashed it. That the RC was endangered was solely because the Dark Avatar was threatening the entire world. Which, *had* the UR not divorced itself from the situation when Korra asked for help might have prevented it. So they have nothing to add to what happens to Desna and Eska. So talk to Korra's father as the elected leader of the SWT about why he gave them a pass.

      Hiroshi was not pardoned. At All. He was unofficially furloughed from prison to aide in the battle. It was clearly stated that he would be tossed back in after. Only he died. If he got *any* kind of a pardon it would have been posthumously.

      Zaheer opted to help Korra cleanse her spirit because Kuvira's goals were counter to his own; was working to undo his "freeing" of the EK, so yeah, he was willing to help. He didn't even attempt to bargain for better privileges. Probably because he knew Korra could not deliver anyway.

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    • I'm talking about how she reunified an entire country within the scope of three years. See, that's the problem - because when her lust for power isn't clouding her judgement, she actually is a good politician, and a good general. That's why she isn't just a "fool". Was she lucky? Hell yes, no one's denying that - but to deny that skill was involved to guide a country that had imploded into a modern, industrialized military superpower is outright ridiculous.

      She's a good fighter with a lot of weapons, of course she could unify the country. 3 years is mostly a convenient timeframe for the story.

      It is very possible for a well-armed general to get by on relatively mediocre tactics, conquer a nation, & then have no real clue how to lead it.

      Long Feng? Why are you comparing him to Long Feng?

      Accusations of puppet government.

      I know Star Wars borrows from other mythologies and events in history, but the amount of similarities line up.

      Which proves absolutely nothing, if you are familiar with one of my favorite mantras, "Correlation does not equal causation." The only similarity confirmed to be intentional is the Earth Troops' helmets.

      Hell, they could have built a few more of the Super Star Destroyers - like Vader's flagship in Episodes V and VI, the Executor. Even more firepower than the conventional Star Destroyer, and still able to produce the same effect. In the now defunt Expanded Universe (f*** Disney), Palpatine had his own, unique SSD called the Eclipse.

      No offense, but I'm not a Star Wars nerd, so I don't know why you assumed that I knew the technical specs of all of these ships. Given that information, I see your argument. The 1 possible use for the Death Star that I might suggest is that blowing a planet apart, as opposed to merely slagging the surface, allows for easier collection of all of its juicy resources.

      I'm already getting the feeling that exploring this tangent will be a waste of time, anyway.

      Well, yeah, you completely disregarded what I said & made the same red herring that I already deconstructed. Complaining that you find his personality cliche does not change the fact that he showed emotion.

      Also, I really have to laugh if you're trying to tell me that Kuvira was more original or developed than Unalaq. Her personality was basically his shtick for the 1st half of Book 2, & her development was essentially fake. They just took a character that we knew nothing about, except that we assigned her as a "good guy" because she helped the heroes in battle, then cast her in the role of the cliche villain for the next season. We can envision her trajectory as a Fallen Hero, but in the 1980's, Final Fantasy I accomplished the same thing with a SINGLE SENTENCE:

      "Garland used to be the best & most faithful knight in Cornelia, but he went mad with power, & now he's rebelling against the King."

      Her mommy issues are a similar tactic of slapping a paper thin psychological "excuse" on a character to give them the illusion of depth.

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    • It's only a "last minute" change of heart if you're technically still in the game. Bataar Jr. only switched sides because Kuvira casually tossed his life away. He didn't really make a choice to stop helping her, he was rejected.

      I'm not 100% sure about the statement that Varrick didn't initially plan on building a weapon.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote: I'm not 100% sure about the statement that Varrick didn't initially plan on building a weapon.

      Kuvira What happened? Were we attacked?
      Varrick No! We were spirit-vined! But don't worry! I'm putting the kibosh on this project.
      Kuvira No, you're not. Do you realize what we could do with this kind of power?
      Varrick Yes! I do! And that's why we gotta put an end to it! What if it fell into the wrong hands?
      Baatar Jr Since when does that matter to you?
      Varrick I know, it's not like me, right? Usually I look at a project like this and think, "Wow! I could make a ton of money off this!" But recently, I've been having these strange feelings… inside. It's like I'm… concerned with others. And there's this nagging voice in my head constantly telling me what's right from wrong!
      Zhu Li I believe that voice is your conscience, sir.
      Kuvira Well, I'm the other voice in your head, and I'm telling you you will continue with this project.
      Varrick Sorry, no. I just really gotta stand my ground on this one—Whoa!
      Kuvira And now there's a voice in my head telling me to drop you on the tracks. Should I listen?
      Varrick No! No! Head voices are liars, what do head voices know? I'll work on the project! Please don't drop me!

      That is not the response of a person who intended to make a weapon. In the scene prior to the first explosion, he specifically stated intention to energize batteries. So… not intended to be a weapon.

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    • Sorry to say, but you do not have a clear grasp of how legal and international matters work.

      No, that would describe you far more accurately. Your position relies on shifting goalposts and blatant hypocrisy.

      Varrick defected and actively worked in the defense of AND FIGHT FOR the RC. That is known as a War Time Pardon for his expertise. Let's remember that what he intended to develop was a source of Clean Energy. The moment the destructive potential was known he was ready to pull the plug. From that point anything developed from his experiments was entirely coerced.

      Also, he did his level best to destroy his work, and was ready to give his own life in the process. It was only due to Bolin's quick thinking they survived.

      That was indeed worth his pardon. Beyond that he was in one of the two surviving flying machines, placing his life on the front lines of the battle. That's complete redemption.

      After he has committed treason twice against the URN and was a huge actor in the Water Tribe Civil War committing fraud, conspiracy, obstruction of justice, committing acts of terrorism with explosives, etc. Where is your hard line against treason and blatant law breaking now? Developing a WMD, which you're so critical of to begin with, even under durress, is still making the WMD. At what point is saving your own skin not worth others' lives? With such moral compunctions, he should have said "whelp, drop me off the train."

      But I just love the leniency you give to people you arbitrarily feel like giving it to when the show tries to paint them in a positive light after the fact of them committing enough crime to realistically lock them away for several lifetimes/get the death penalty.

      Eska and Desna… their fate was *only* left to the WTs. The Civil War did not *involve* the UR, which in fact stood divorced of the war. When Korra *tried* to get UR Forces involved, Raiko came in and squashed it. That the RC was endangered was solely because the Dark Avatar was threatening the entire world. Which, *had* the UR not divorced itself from the situation when Korra asked for help might have prevented it. So they have nothing to add to what happens to Desna and Eska. So talk to Korra's father as the elected leader of the SWT about why he gave them a pass.

      Why should it be? Their actions affected the entire planet.

      No need for quotations, and, it did involve the URN (and the rest of the world (for instance the trade lines are impacted by the dark spirits their actions are involved with)), see above.

      Hiroshi was not pardoned. At All. He was unofficially furloughed from prison to aide in the battle. It was clearly stated that he would be tossed back in after. Only he died. If he got *any* kind of a pardon it would have been posthumously.

      ...Hence, I said his punishment was one of two high profile cases that stuck.

      Zaheer opted to help Korra cleanse her spirit because Kuvira's goals were counter to his own; was working to undo his "freeing" of the EK, so yeah, he was willing to help. He didn't even attempt to bargain for better privileges. Probably because he knew Korra could not deliver anyway.

      Yet, his actions helped the URN, EK, and Avatar, covering those that he "wronged," and this was integral in the war effort. He didn't have to do anything, but he chose to. How's this fundamentally different from the others? Since we're all for giving people second chances that benefit their captors', why not Hiroshi and Zaheer getting them too? In Zaheer's case, is it because he's not repentant? Hiroshi was, while Varrick/Zhu'Li and Desna/Eska don't appear to even acknowledge any wrong doing.

      I get that someone like Varrick was useful for the war effort, but he should, if we care at all about law and order, have received the same treatment Hiroshi Sato did, "help us to save the nation, but you're going right back to prison after." Instead, he's apparently absolved of everything and has an opulant wedding with many of the VIPs that he royally screwed over multiple times.

      But yes, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, because you say so.

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    • There is nothing hypocritical in NOT having a judicial system with a Blanket Philosophy. IRL America, each case is tried on its own merits. Blankets are only good up to the point of arrest, but the fates are decided case-by-case. In any two which appear to be identical crimes and circumstances, one might walk while the other life imprisonment or death.

      Zaheer, although it was not put in this light, helped from prison because Kuvira was working to reverse the Red Lotus's goal of "the natural order of things" anarchy. She had to be stopped. Plus, Korra is not in a position to extend to him *any* leniency.

      Soooo, if *you*, attempting to make/mix up something in your hobby spare time accidentally discover a super powerful formula/process which your neighbor, employer, landlord, someone-else decides to mass produce as a WMD, YOU should go to prison for it? No. You'd go down as a footnote in the history books as the one who initially discovered it, but there'd be no cause to vilify you. Unless you wish to vilify yourself… "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."

      Varrick was pardoned/cleared of his past crimes against the UR. Kuvira saw to that. So while true they happened, he can no longer be charged for them.

      Varrick did not want to die. Bad man that! At least not initially. And being dropped on the tracks would have done nothing to prevent the Spirit Beam from being made a reality. Well, maybe *slowed* the development some while BJ worked out the logistics of it. But after escaping and being dragged back—feeling betrayed by Zhu Li, so nothing more to really live for—he destroyed his lab and complete work. And was prepared to die with it.

      That is worthy of a pass. He then saw to it the UR was informed of the existence of the weapon so they'd not be totally surprised. He actively worked to counter the coming attack, while *refusing* to replicate the Spirit Weapon for the UR, so, you know, moral convictions and victory.

      But if he had to face a judicial system like which you seem to favor, I guess none of that means anything.

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    • Is treason really a crime that warrents death in the Avatar universe? People seem to constantly switch sides in the show with relatively minor consequences. Prison seems to be about the harshest punishment that you can inflict on someone, other than say exile in Zuko's case.

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    • Yet, you refuse to look at them on their merits, you sweep under the rug treason, conspiracy, terrorism and the like, because they do something helpful after they cause a huge problem that's about to (or has) explode(d).

      Hiroshi gets jail time and presumably will go back to jail after helping.

      Twins get head of state. All they did to make up for what they did was fight some dark spirits at the last second, which arose from a situation they helped manufacture (well after they had knowingly been working with said spirits).

      Varrick apparently gets absolved. Despite the laundry list of crimes already listed in previous posts, because he makes a prototype to fight against Kuvira.

      ^In 2/3 of these cases, their "redemption" was helping to resolve situations they held direct responsibility for. Great, they helped, now go back to jail. Hiroshi is the only one that helped out in a problem that the person(s) in quesiton didn't have a hand in creating.

      (Additionally, how you earlier mentioned looking at the Civil War or WWII post war trials, the twins should have, if following suit with the US CW (even though in this case, the South won instead), been stripped of all ability to hold office and possibly seen some prison time (and the US CW was extremely lenient compared to others in history, though ironically, the war that cost the most American deaths to date even still), if following the WWII trials, they should have committed suicide or been hanged.)

      On the Zaheer bit, you dismiss his aid because his goals aligned with the protagonists', well, so did all 3 above, why do two of the entries get pardons? Korra can't extend this? So? URN can, his actions directly benefitted them and had he not done it, they probably lose the war. So, where's the fundamental difference there?

      If I'm working for someone as malicious as you paint Kuvira to be, at an extremely high level in the organization (I don't get to claim ignorance of who they are and what they do), and what I'm doing pretty obviously has a high likelihood of being weaponized (it housed massive amounts of energy and they all knew this), then when I discover it can be weaponized to such a level, I am pretty reasonably responsible for my actions and what comes in the direct wake of my work. Particularly if I continue working on it, give someone else in the organization knowledge of how it works, even if under duress. If I have reason to believe that this person will use my work to kill millions of people, even at the cost of my life, if I work on it, I'm culpable.

      So, you're literally saying it's okay to just ignore one's actions. Why even have laws and punishment?

      So, build the bomb, spread the knowledge, then commit suicide, great, that makes the problem go away! Also, again, your own life vs potentially millions, is that a fair trade? I mean, I value my own life greatly...but to knowingly endanger millions of people? That's crossed my line long before that point.

      Helping to create the situation in the first place, then participating in cleaning it up after much collateral damage and some deaths, why does this wipe away?

      Yeah, I guess I'm way out there, actually believing in accountability.

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    • First, Korra has no ability to offer or leverage pardons. She might *ask* for them to be considered. She cannot provide them. So yeah, she goes to visit Zaheer and she need not offer him anything. Especially if he doesn't ask for anything.

      Varrick lucked out, and that is true, but once pardons are provided, they don't get taken back or voided unless very specific terms are (or are not) met. *Your* Kuvira swung him pardons in the UR. So everything pre-book4 is clean slate.

      The (USA) laws regarding Under Duress are quite clear, and provides the best legal defense other than Exoneration and Diminished Mental Capacity. Nothing said or done when proven as Under Duress can be liable.

      Let's also keep in mind that this was the First technological WMD *ever* for the known Avatarverse. This is not like IRL where the gawdawful results are a reality to nearly everyone. It was unique for them. It was an accidental side effect from a benign project for Clean Energy. Being *forced* under threat of life to continue developing it *as* a WMD means that Varrick is free from both actus reus and mens rea. And President Raiko has both the power and the right to decide on the spot whom to give pardons to.

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    • I'm not saying Korra needs to give the pardon. Zaheer helped her and by proxy, URN. So, they must ask for them to be absolved?

      Except, it isn't actually just gone, only legally is it gone and really due to making arbitrary exceptions to the rules because he has an unrelated talent.

      Yep, genocide under duress, that'd be totally fine. "But, sir, I didn't want to kill all those people! The boss said they'd kill me if I didn't!" "You killed an entire city..." "But the said they'd kill me, so it's 'kay. Can I go now?" In real law, there is a limit to how far that defense will go, building a WMD you believe will kill millions has gone far beyond that range. You would be right if he weren't doing something in the ballpark of making a WMD that he believed could be used against people, killing them en masse. Really, duress laws that you allude to are no defense for actions of this magnitude.

      From entry on "Duress," Wikipedia:

      For duress to qualify as a defense, four requirements must be met:[1]

      1. The threat must be of serious bodily harm or death
      2. The threatened harm must be greater than the harm caused by the crime
      3. The threat must be immediate and inescapable
      4. The defendant must have become involved in the situation through no fault of his or her own.

      Using this as a general guide, Varrick definitely fails on at least #2 and pretty defensibly fails on #4 too.

      When nuclear weaponry was created, that was our first taste of real WMDs. It wasn't that long ago in our history either and this is during a military technological boom in the spirit tech's case. If Kuvira, not a scientist, could tell this could be weaponized either instantly or already thought that prior to the event on the train, then it is unfathomable that it didn't occur to Varrick, a guy who built weapons.

      With the kind of rationalizations and allowances you give him, if we applied them to Kuvira, she should walk too.

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    • Korra said she didn't forgive Zaheer, right?

      Not all scientists can foresee every possible application, positive, or negative of their discoveries or inventions. People have a certain inclination to view a new idea or invention based on their particular field or background. How many movies are there with a general or some villains using some new product for military purposes that the creator never envisioned?

      It can be a bit sketchy because we're not exactly sure if Varrick was the one behind the military weapons in Kuvira's forces. The only invention that seems to be linked to Varrick that we know of for certain might be the train and rail system. You could say its implied based on information in book 3 about Varrick being an inventor but that invention was the magnet suit. That doesn't even include Bataar who's also an engineer/inventor so I'm more inclined to blame the writing.

      I'd say there's some certain duress with Varrick. He obviously didn't know that his experiment would yield a purple beam of destruction though. He does try to disrupt the plans for that bomb by blowing it and the available spirits vines so I'd give it to him for taking some responsibility.

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    • I kind of think Su is the real villain here, She basically raised Kuvira and yet she turned out this way, same with Batar yet he is forgiven and Kuvira is sent to jail. Su also let the earth kingdom descend into Chaos she didn't need to take over in order to help she could have worked with the air nation and Republic city to elect a council to run the earth kingdom. Kuvira was right Su did turn her back on the the Earth Kingdom.

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    • Thank you Kuberness.

      Varrick DID NOT USE his discovery as a weapon—except when he set it to self-destruct his portion of the train, and even then he ordered out everyone but Bolin, so no other lives were endangered and they escaped—*he* did not develop it as a weapon. He did his level best to stuff his genie back into its bottle.

      Kuvira, on the other hand, the one who *duressed* Varrick and ordered the application of his discovery into a weapon, had to be *stopped*. She does not get to skate.

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    • Why many people don't wanted Kuvira to be executed? She had do a lot of bad things. She is nothing but the female historical version of El Cid.

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    • I can't speak for others, but execution doesn't seem very Avatar-ish. At least for the good guys. It does feel like something a villain would do. You know, like what Kuvira was going to do to Zhu li.

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    • Yet, it should have been obvious it could be weaponized, Kuvira, not a scientist, immediately knew it had such applications (or realized it sooner), how could Varrick not have realized that something with so much potential energy (which he knew was unstable) could be used for weapons? Particularly when he was involved in making weapons and studying the vines extensively already.

      Yes, so, let the entire science crew that knew how to use the technology they helped him make, survive and replicate it! Great idea if you're trying to shove it back in the bottle, especially after you already developed the weaponized version of it. If he actually wanted to keep it out of "the wrong hands" the obvious answer was to blow up the entire train without warning, killing the scientists that knew how to make spirit weaponry so his work couldn't be followed to cause catastrophe later. What he did was make it, train up some people to make more of it, then kill himself off and he doesn't have to deal with the consequences, the people on the receiving end of the cannon are still screwed and he's still undeniably bearing culpability.

      Your duress defense was already blown apart. And the help Varrick provided to oppose Kuvira was in the wake of enabling her to have the tech in the first place. Why not let her skate? They don't seem to really care all that much about treason, terrorism, or endangering the entire planet, so what's a little border dispute? Or in Zaheer's case, murdering a despot that was planning a war anyway? Yeah, Zaheer took out someone doing/conspiring to do the things Kuvira is cited as needing to be stopped for, yet they throw the book at him (he's basically killing a Kuvira who's shitty to all of her people and he's considered evil for it.). So, again, these crazy double/triple standards are all over the place. About the only common thread is if the narrative paints them in a positive light at some point near the end, they get a pass and the negative things they do are forgotten. But if you actually stop and think about it, it's totally absurd that they're walking free in light of their actions.

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      I can't speak for others, but execution doesn't seem very Avatar-ish. At least for the good guys. It does feel like something a villain would do. You know, like what Kuvira was going to do to Zhu li.

      Eye for an eye doesn't fly? Do note that Zhu'Li was about to blow up a machine in the middle of a crowd of high ranking Earth Empire personel. Makes sense Kuvira would give her the death penalty for that.

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    • That is not the response of a person who intended to make a weapon.

      Speculative. It could easily be the response of a person who intended to make a weapon, but then realized that the weapon could fall into the hands of people he didn't trust with it. There's also the fact that mentions that Varrick has recently begun having a "nagging concern for others" that he didn't have before. So, I'm still not convinced.

      Is treason really a crime that warrents death in the Avatar universe? People seem to constantly switch sides in the show with relatively minor consequences. Prison seems to be about the harshest punishment that you can inflict on someone, other than say exile in Zuko's case.

      In the Northern Water Tribe, at least, it is. Which humorously enough reminds me of the "mercy" claim, as Unalaq intentionally ordered the penalty to be waived in order to make him look better.

      Yep, genocide under duress, that'd be totally fine. "But, sir, I didn't want to kill all those people! The boss said they'd kill me if I didn't!" "You killed an entire city..." "But the said they'd kill me, so it's 'kay. Can I go now?" In real law, there is a limit to how far that defense will go, building a WMD you believe will kill millions has gone far beyond that range.

      Well, sometimes I don't think laws are based on reality. For example, if all the person had to do was push a button that would bomb the city, it is logical that they would probably respond to the the threat without thinking it through.

      Similarly, Varrick INITIALLY responded to the threat against his life, but after having time to think, he WAS willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. And, in fact, because of his INITIAL refusal, he was able to destroy EVERYTHING that he'd been working on, effectively doing a lot more good than if he'd just been splattered against the tracks.

      Not to mention, he plays a key role in stopping Kuvira's invasion force.

      I'm not sure of the reason, but people who willingly participate in serial killings often get lesser sentences than the "brains behind the operation." Perhaps this is because of plea bargaining.

      All of this would surely come up in Varrick's hypothetical trial as mitigating factors.

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    • Say they pushed the button, but didn't know what this actually did? Sure, I'd give you that. If they did understand ("I push this button, and a million people die")? No, that is on them. I do agree there is a level of understanding required here though, like you seem to suggest.

      Along with what I mention in my earlier post, if his initial response "don't drop me!" was used to actually cleverly destroy the trail of his work (blow up the train and the others that developed/knew the tech), I could agree with that, but he didn't. As a result at least Bataar Jr. knew how to complete the weapon due to Varrick's work under duress.

      He does play a significant role in the ultimate defeat of Kuvira...but at the same time, he was instrumental in developing the spirit weaponry that really made her so insurmountable in the first place. This situation arose with his help and despite his "redemption" we're still talking after quite a bit of death and destruction that he's unquestionably partially culpable for.

      Plea bargaining is a pretty delicate balance, that really has some fundamental problems attached to it. There are some very compelling arguments that suggest it ultimately undermines the criminal justice system more than it helps it.

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    • Bersarker wrote:
      Why many people don't wanted Kuvira to be executed? She had do a lot of bad things. She is nothing but the female historical version of El Cid.

      Scale of operations Kuvira and El Cid cannot be compared. At El Cid had the strength only to Valencia. Kuvira was able to unite the whole nation. The scale of its action reminds of Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella of Castile. And her character brings to mind the Lioness of Romagna - Caterina Sforza. Although from El Cid so how people remember him in her something is present.

      "She had do a lot of bad things"... Hmmm... I don't know how to react to this statement. I can say that she is a politician. That she had to get the country from the grave. And is impossible to create the state using songs and dances. But it is useless. I think the reason for the change in the age of the viewer are the focus of the show. The Last Airbender was designed for children. But the Legend of Korra is designed for more adult audience. Nevertheless, many spectators continue to evaluate characters focusing on their children's notions of good and evil. That is, is in full denial of the fundamentals of geopolitics for the usual division of the characters on the heroes and villains. In part, this fault for writers that wanting to keep as many elements Last Airbender they donate a portion of likelihood. Nevertheless, most of the elements are in place.

      "Whatever choice we make, we must do the evil while try to do good; for we must abandon one moral end in favor to another ". Hans J . Morgenthau, Scientific Man Vs. Power Politics.

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    • Integer115 wrote:
      Bersarker wrote:
      Why many people don't wanted Kuvira to be executed? She had do a lot of bad things. She is nothing but the female historical version of El Cid.
      Scale of operations Kuvira and El Cid cannot be compared. At El Cid had the strength only to Valencia. Kuvira was able to unite the whole nation. The scale of its action reminds of Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella of Castile. And her character brings to mind the Lioness of Romagna - Caterina Sforza. Although from El Cid so how people remember him in her something is present.

      "She had do a lot of bad things"... Hmmm... I don't know how to react to this statement. I can say that she is a politician. That she had to get the country from the grave. And is impossible to create the state using songs and dances. But it is useless. I think the reason for the change in the age of the viewer are the focus of the show. The Last Airbender was designed for children. But the Legend of Korra is designed for more adult audience. Nevertheless, many spectators continue to evaluate characters focusing on their children's notions of good and evil. That is, is in full denial of the fundamentals of geopolitics for the usual division of the characters on the heroes and villains. In part, this fault for writers that wanting to keep as many elements Last Airbender they donate a portion of likelihood. Nevertheless, most of the elements are in place.

      "Whatever choice we make, we must do the evil while try to do good; for we must abandon one moral end in favor to another ". Hans J . Morgenthau, Scientific Man Vs. Power Politics.

      I meant about how much they are like each other. Both, Kuvira and El Cid wanted to have their own kingdoms. To do that, they both had ravaged the towns and countrysides

      for the resources and the riches. El Cid had executed the Moors in Valencia that are on the side of the Almoravids by hanged them at hands and burn them alive.

      Kuvira might do that to the people who have no origins in the Earth Kingdom, including the people of United Republic as well. Their reign in their kingdoms were short

      and they both were once in service of the powerful rulers. For El Cid, it's King Alfonso the Sixth of Leon and Castile and Emir Ahmad Al-Muqtadir of Zaragoza.

      While Kuvira was once in service of Suyin, the ruler of Zaofu.

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    • Bersarker wrote:

      I meant about how much they are like each other. Both, Kuvira and El Cid wanted to have their own kingdoms. To do that, they both had ravaged the towns and countrysides

      for the resources and the riches. El Cid had executed the Moors in Valencia that are on the side of the Almoravids by hanged them at hands and burn them alive.

      Kuvira might do that to the people who have no origins in the Earth Kingdom, including the people of United Republic as well. Their reign in their kingdoms were short

      and they both were once in service of the powerful rulers. For El Cid, it's King Alfonso the Sixth of Leon and Castile and Emir Ahmad Al-Muqtadir of Zaragoza.

      While Kuvira was once in service of Suyin, the ruler of Zaofu.

      You say "executed the Moors in Valencia" that as if it's something bad.  For the elevation of Spain had to expel the Moors. And I remind you that the Moors against Christians, too, were extremely skeptical. And you do not forget how the Moors came to Valencia?

      And I remind you that Kuvira did not kill any fire/waterbender. And the creation of temporary isolation camps for people able to throw fireballs in that situation could be justified step.

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    • No, that is on them. I do agree there is a level of understanding required here though, like you seem to suggest.

      What I am suggesting is that people whose lives are directly threatened will make knee-jerk decisions, & that laws should be based on facts. It sounds nice to say that you just shouldn't kill a person even if you're threatened, but it's probably not how human psychology actually works.

      Along with what I mention in my earlier post, if his initial response "don't drop me!" was used to actually cleverly destroy the trail of his work (blow up the train and the others that developed/knew the tech), I could agree with that, but he didn't. As a result at least Bataar Jr. knew how to complete the weapon due to Varrick's work under duress.

      That's inane, the fact that he didn't predict that Bataar Jr. could recreate his work doesn't negate the fact that he planned on destroying it nor the fact that he set back production of the weapon.

      He does play a significant role in the ultimate defeat of Kuvira...but at the same time, he was instrumental in developing the spirit weaponry that really made her so insurmountable in the first place. This situation arose with his help and despite his "redemption" we're still talking after quite a bit of death and destruction that he's unquestionably partially culpable for.

      That's the whole point, he's counteracting the damage, & more than that, he's doing it because he WANTS to.

      He is clearly expressing remorse & doing everything within reason to make reparations.

      Plea bargaining is a pretty delicate balance, that really has some fundamental problems attached to it. There are some very compelling arguments that suggest it ultimately undermines the criminal justice system more than it helps it.

      Perhaps, but are we arguing based on how the law DOES work or how it SHOULD work?

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    • Bersarker wrote: Why many people don't wanted Kuvira to be executed? She had do a lot of bad things. She is nothing but the female historical version of El Cid.

      I'm wondering that as well. I could see if this was motivated by a general opposition to the Death Penalty, but that doesn't seem to be it.

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    • Varrick was probably Pardoned. President Raiko has that unilateral power and would have pardoned him to get his expertise. *Raiko* wanted the Spirit weapon to counter Kuvira's. He *demanded* it.

      Varrick *refused*.

      There was no negotiation. Raiko did not come back with anything like revoking Varrick's (latest) pardon, or tossing him into jail until he reconsidered. So the Wartime, Battlefield Justice decisions were that Varrick was not held as responsible for his discovery being weaponized.

      You are NOT responsible for your actions Under Duress. Yet even under duress, Varrick managed to blow up his lab, research, and all available materials. From his comments later, he did not expect Bataar Jr to be able to replicate the work.

      In addition Varrick's actions at that time showed he was not a killer. He could have said nothing about the self-destruct and let it go off taking the entire train with him and stopping Kuvira in the ultimate fashion—although got to say the optics of the spirit weapon going off and destroying all but the very front portion of the train and Kuvira just a foot or so *beyond* its radius is abso-freakin'-lutely *beautiful*…

      Anyway, Varrick was no killer. And while he may have stooped to selling weapons for wartime gain in the past, even he saw the misuse of Spirit Energy as something which needed to Not Be.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      Bersarker wrote: Why many people don't wanted Kuvira to be executed? She had do a lot of bad things. She is nothing but the female historical version of El Cid.

      I'm wondering that as well. I could see if this was motivated by a general opposition to the Death Penalty, but that doesn't seem to be it.

      My personal biases about her character aisde, I'm not against executing her - and to a lesser degree, Bataar - on a moral basis. 

      My problem is from a geopolitical viewpoint - it'd be like the Coalition executing Napoleon after his defeat at Waterloo instead of exiling him to a far-flung island west of Africa, where the British knew he'd have no chance of escaping. It would cause turmoil in the Earth Nation, and make the already daunting task of creating (and policing) dozens of seperate nations even harder.

      It's not like executing Sadam Hussein, where the majority of the country - Shi'a Arabs and Sunni Kurds - hated his guts. Executing a leader that's popular in their home country is never a decision to be taken lightly.

      Imagine if the United States had decided to execute Emperor Hirohito at the end of World War II. Japan would have been impossible to control, and the fragile peace could very well have been broken. I mean, there was an attempted coup against the Emperor literally the night before he gave his surrender speech via radio to the nation. 

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    • What I am suggesting is that people whose lives are directly threatened will make knee-jerk decisions, & that laws should be based on facts. It sounds nice to say that you just shouldn't kill a person even if you're threatened, but it's probably not how human psychology actually works.

      I get it, however, in duress scenarios the person being threatened is still considered culpable to a degree, even if that defense is sucessful. What it is doing legally/morally is reducing/effectively nullifying their liability. When the results of what you do under duress exceed a certain range and tip the scale further than if they carried out their threat (like they have two hostages and your life, but they have you kill 30 people), your culpability/liability isn't reduced to where you're free to go. I get that a knee jerk reaction is what it is and it may be difficult to make a clear judgement, but if you do understand (or reasonably should understand) what's going on, duress doesn't fly. In context with Varrick (after Kuvira didn't drop him and he went to work), he had time to think.

      That's inane, the fact that he didn't predict that Bataar Jr. could recreate his work doesn't negate the fact that he planned on destroying it nor the fact that he set back production of the weapon.

      Bataar Jr. watched him build it and was privy to all of his work all the way up until he left. It slowed down in the sense that Varrick was their best scientist and he was no longer working for them and the physical apparatus he made was now gone. Point is though, he already cleared the trail and by this point, beleived these people were "the wrong hands." If he doesn't want to let spirit weaponry become a reality soon, killing Bataar Jr. and the science staff is the way to stop it, which he had the means to do.

      That's the whole point, he's counteracting the damage, & more than that, he's doing it because he WANTS to.

      He is clearly expressing remorse & doing everything within reason to make reparations.

      Like I pointed out, that damage wouldn't have occurred without his actions, and it wouldn't have needed cleaning up if he didn't develop it, even if under duress. How does being sorry for what one did, absolve one of crimes committed? Giving a lighter punishment? That I could see, like life imprisonment as opposed to the death penalty. But walking? No.

      Perhaps, but are we arguing based on how the law DOES work or how it SHOULD work?

      We're arguing about plea bargaining? If he's having a trial, he's not plea bargaining. Also, what you were talking about with the serial killer, I took to mean as the common practice of taking people with lesser crimes to testify against the perpetrator in exchange for lesser sentences, so prosecution can nail the actual killer. Or in the case where there are multiple people involved with someone at the top ("mastermind" as you mentioned), lesser sentences for the flunkies, so that they can connect the leader that they otherwise might not get a conviction on. Or the most problematic in my opinion, plea bargaining so everyone doesn't have to go through a trial.

      I don't think any of those would apply to Varrick, they have Kuvira in custody after all and it's high profile so it would seem like they wouldn't want to forego the trial for a lesser sentence. The only one that I could kind of see would be for the last example if they wanted to guarantee the conviction and they weren't confident they could get it.

      =

      Varrick was probably Pardoned. President Raiko has that unilateral power and would have pardoned him to get his expertise. *Raiko* wanted the Spirit weapon to counter Kuvira's. He *demanded* it.

      Varrick *refused*.

      There was no negotiation. Raiko did not come back with anything like revoking Varrick's (latest) pardon, or tossing him into jail until he reconsidered. So the Wartime, Battlefield Justice decisions were that Varrick was not held as responsible for his discovery being weaponized.

      Raiko could take a page from Kuvira and force Varrick to do R&D for them. Varrick seemed like he would have worked on the Hummingbirds willingly enough anyways. Then after he could (and should) be tried/be put in prison.

      You are NOT responsible for your actions Under Duress. 

      And you are wrong about duress, legally, and I'd say (more importantly), morally too.

      In addition Varrick's actions at that time showed he was not a killer.

      Maybe he doesn't pull the trigger himself, but he did set up bombs in a public place and detonate them, intentionally worked to escalate a civil war, as well as make the WMD that was pretty obviously going to be used. Spoiler, these things have a propensity to kill people.

      But, by your reasoning, Charles Manson should walk because, as of now, he's not a killer. Only difference is he wasn't already pardoned once for his crimes (because apparently in your world, that wipes away someone's very nature).

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    • I can see that argument. I don't agree that it would be a problem, but it makes good logical sense.

      You are NOT responsible for your actions Under Duress. Yet even under duress, Varrick managed to blow up his lab, research, and all available materials. From his comments later, he did not expect Bataar Jr to be able to replicate the work.

      Well, legally, & mostly since I trust Wikipedia with my life, Weltall seems to be correct that under duress is not considered a valid defense for murder, in most cases.

      Should it be? Well, I think it depends on the nature of the "duress."

      True, the worst thing Varrick ever did was inflame the civil war & sell weapons to both sides. That's pretty bad, but it's clear he always had reservations about directly inflicting violence on people. Even if he didn't realize it.

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    • Does anyone know if anyone used "duress" as an excuse during the Nuremburg Trials? 

      That would definitely determine how it would hold up in just about any international tribunal.

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    • Hmm, good question. I never really looked too deep into them and just assumed the trials weren't really fair. (Huge bias against them, but huge crimes committed so w/e's "guilty" verdicts were all but inevitable.) But it is true that not all of those convicted were hanged.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Hmm, good question. I never really looked too deep into them and just assumed the trials weren't really fair. (Huge bias against them, but huge crimes committed so w/e's "guilty" verdicts were all but inevitable.) But it is true that not all of those convicted were hanged.

      The overwhelming majority receieved prison sentences - sentences that were shortened a few years later. Many were let out due to health reasons (a lot of them were old men who had experienced both world wars), or were released to curry favor with the newly established West German Republic. 

      I think Albert Speer was one of the latter.

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    • I don't know, but I remember that the Nuremberg Trials coined the phrase, "Just following orders isn't an excuse" & then psychologists ran studies that found out that the vast majority of people absolutely will follow orders, even if they're terrible. Which undercuts my point about how laws are sometimes based on what the courts would like to believe, not how reality actually works.

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    • It's like animal instincts kicking in - humans like to survive, after all.

      For the Nuremburg argument, part of it had to do with the deeply-seeded mentality that the Germans had - they'd been ruled, as a society/culture for nearly a thousand years by princes, dukes, kings, and emperors. Even the German Empire (1871-1918) was a constitutional monarchy, but the kaiser still had quite a bit of power. Then they had democracy forced on them after Wilhelm II abdicated, and the first few years were... pretty bad. It evened out before the Great Depression, but when that hit, everything went to Hell. Prussia (one of the German states), which had a tradition of loyalty and obedience (which - in principle - there is nothing wrong with), symbolized the traits that were easily corrupted by the Nazis during WWII; this was one of the reasons why it was on the chopping block and dissolved in 1947.

      Similar arguments can be made for nations like China and Russia, as well.

      So when a powerful leader came to them, offering salvation and stability, they jumped at the opportunity. Of course, we know how that worked out. For a nation like the Earth Nation, with its long history of monarchs (either inept or tyrannical) and feudal governance, this feels like a similar situation. 

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    • I'm not sure what would happen to Kuvira. Maybe Su Yin would allow Kuvira to return to house arrest in Zao Fu.

      Death? Certainly not. Life in prison? Don't think so either.

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    • Maybe, but even in a setting as simple as a lab experiment in an American city, we find a similar effect.

      I rather agree about the Earth Nation being a similar situation. Hitler was in the back of my mind when I was thinking about someone who, by all accounts, was pretty unremarkable in intellect but somehow amassed this hugely powerful empire.

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    • Duke of Skibbington wrote:
      I'm not sure what would happen to Kuvira. Maybe Su Yin would allow Kuvira to return to house arrest in Zao Fu.

      Death? Certainly not. Life in prison? Don't think so either.

      I don't think execution is likely.

      Life in prison will be the worst she gets, although she may get out after a few decades, if she's shown repentence - I could also see it being done as a political gesture towards the Earth Nation (or what's left of it). If she does get released, it would only be after the region has stabilized (meaning there's little chance of her having an opportunity to gain power again), and I would add other conditions - she be stripped of the right to run for public office, maybe strip her of her right to vote (maybe not, idk), indefinite house-arrest, and I'm not opposed to her having her bending removed - permanently.

      That house-arrest wouldn't be in Zaofu - Suyin hates her guts. Maybe some isolated island off the coast of the Earth Nation. 

      I still see a better comparison of Kuvira to Napoleon, but whatever.

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    • Duress is a viable defense. Especially in jury trials; jury members are asked to place themselves in such circumstances.

      Wikipedia states that *IF* the law system which the case is umbrella'd under are so written, then the authorities *can* say "dun'matter". Juries may still say otherwise.

      However the operational truth (in US Law) is the "he might have pulled the trigger, but *you* put the gun in his hand and pointed him" mentality; the law wants the *responsible* party more than the one under duress. If someone has your family—spouse, children, possibly including even a baby(or more)—and tell you to go kill xx or they all die… you *may* try to find a way to work yourself around and out of it, but failing to do so, 99 44/100% of the time, you'll do as instructed.

      Unless you're a psychopath with no true human emotion or sense of human connections.

      Or a Vulcan.

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    • While it certainly is viable, that depends heavily upon the cirucumstances.

      We're talking about weapons of mass destruction and possible mass-murder here - which are entirely different things, and I'm certain the "I'm under duress" argument would have been dismissed by the Allied tribunals at Nuremburg after WWII.

      Since the spirit cannon was fired in a largely (if not entirely) evactuated city, the number of actual civilian casualties could very well be non-existent. All of the targets we have seen - where people have died - have been military targets (ex: the WWI-style dreadnoughts in Republic City's harbor). Because of this, Varrick and Zhu-Li - who were under duress - have a better chance of getting a pardon than they would have otherwise. 

      Wehrner von Braun is a decent example of a real-life scientist/engineer who might qualify for the "duress" argument. Before WWII, he built rockets and the like, dreaming of putting people into space. During the war, he built ballistic missles for the Nazis that claimed the lives of thousands of civilains - particularly in Britain; those missles were also built using slave labor from the concentration camps, though I'm pretty sure that wasn't his decision. Because of his experience with rocketry, the Americans took him into custody and made good use of his skills during the Cold War, designing ICBMs (intercontinental ballistic missles - nukes, essentially).

      He's also the man that designed the rockets that pushed NASA into space and onto the Moon - which was his original goal as an idealistic inventor from before the war. 

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    • Duress is a viable defense. Especially in jury trials; jury members are asked to place themselves in such circumstances.

      Except, in the capacity that we're talking about, it isn't. By most law, duress for something that fits that "outweighing criteria" previously mentioned, isn't a defense. If you're talking about:

      A) "This dude held a gun up to my head and told me to steal someone's keys and drive the car away from the crime scene, before he threw me out of the car and drove off" then sure, duress is a valid defense.

      B) "Dude held a gun up to my parents' heads and told me if I didn't kill ten random people by the end of the day, they'd kill my parents" isn't a valid defense.

      Maybe a jury would/wouldn't convict them, but all other things being equal, A's is a legally sound defense, B's isn't. Juries being easily swayed morons that don't understand basic law isn't the issue here.

      ==

      As for great minds getting special treatment, I'm all for tapping that valuable resource, but at the same time, they're criminals that should have their freedom stripped of them. Let's keep using the von Brauns for their usefulness in advancing technology and humanity in general, but at the same time, they shouldn't get to be above the law because they're intelligent, rich, influential, etc. Commute them from prison to the office under armed guard every day, keep them working for the common good, sure, but hold them accountable for their crimes against society. If they can do more good alive than dead, keep them alive, but make them pay their debt.

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    • The state needs a weapon, this is important. If a person with the stigma of a rogue believes that it is wrong then it is his personal problem. If the power of your state frightens other states it's just wonderful, less likely to start a full-scale war.

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    • As for the punishment is prison is the best option. Kuvira can escape and create a weapon that can destroy Avatar! In Earth Nation there is a Lion turtle bones. Using these bones Kuvira can create analogue Kiryu. Even Avatar can not defeat MechaLion turtle.

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    • Integer115 wrote:
      As for the punishment is prison is the best option. Kuvira can escape and create a weapon that can destroy Avatar! In Earth Nation there is a Lion turtle bones. Using these bones Kuvira can create analogue Kiryu. Even Avatar can not defeat MechaLion tortle.

      ... What?

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    • CommanderZeta wrote:
      Integer115 wrote:
      As for the punishment is prison is the best option. Kuvira can escape and create a weapon that can destroy Avatar! In Earth Nation there is a Lion turtle bones. Using these bones Kuvira can create analogue Kiryu. Even Avatar can not defeat MechaLion tortle.
      ... What?

      Agree with you Zeta. I don't even know what is this guy said either.

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    • Bersarker wrote:

      Agree with you Zeta. I don't even know what is this guy said either.

      I Googled it; had something to do with Godzilla. Meh. 

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    • I figured it was some kind of Kaiju reference.

      We all know that the tactic of "I have a superweapon so everyone will be to afraid to escalate the situation" totally stopped the spread of nukes.

      Putting a cap on how far you can escalate your arms without necessary self-defense isn't just an emotional stigma, you reach a point where global destruction is a very real danger. And by "necessary," I don't mean Floridan "I was concerned that I might be attacked at some point" logic.

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    • We all know that the tactic of "I have a superweapon so everyone will be to afraid to escalate the situation" totally stopped the spread of nukes.

      I could just as easily argue that if it had not been for the very real prospect of nuclear war, that a conventional war between the Soviet Union and the United States would have been more likely. During the Suez Crisis, Britain and France threatened to use nuclear weapons against the Soviet-leaning Arab nations, but the US and the USSR stepped in and ordered them not to - both were unwilling to allow the prospect of a nuclear war, as conventional war between the great powers was no longer feasible. The threat of nuclear war is part of the reason why India hasn't wiped Pakistan off the map, too. 

      Putting a cap on how far you can escalate your arms without necessary self-defense isn't just an emotional stigma, you reach a point where global destruction is a very real danger. And by "necessary," I don't mean Floridan "I was concerned that I might be attacked at some point" logic.

      Nuclear weapons are a double-edged sword, certainly - and non-proliferation is the preferable way to go. However, it is unrealistic, since nations (that are capable of doing so) are greedy, self-serving entities and will always search for an edge over their rivals. WMDs were the next step in the unfortunate evolution. 

      An... older example of such an arms race would be Germany's attempt to match the British Navy before World War I. It was the wrong thing to do - especially how it contributed to the start of the war, and how it limited Germany's ability to fight a land war - but it was Germany attempting to even the playing field against the largest colonial empire the world has ever seen.

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    • Can anyone give me the proper reason of why Kuvira, Baatar and their army cannot be executed? If they can't get executed, they should be sent in exile

      and being banned from the Earth Kingdom forever. That is what I like.

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    • Bersarker wrote:
      Can anyone give me the proper reason of why Kuvira, Baatar and their army cannot be executed? If they can't get executed, they should be sent in exile

      and being banned from the Earth Kingdom forever. That is what I like.

      I have told you. At least once. 

      Executing her could cause an international crisis, make her a martyr for her cause, undermine the Avatar's moral authority (I mean, they didn't execute Ozai, and he deserved it more than Kuvira), and throw the Earth Nation into turmoil. 

      Suyin would never let Bataar be executed. Period. 

      Her army? That'd be like rounding up every German soldier during WWII - including the Wehrmacht, KriegsmarineLuftwaffe, and any normal branch of the military - and massacring them wholesale. While war crimes were committed by some parts of these organizations, there were not inherently out to genocide Europe into extinction - where as the SS and it's paramilitary branch of the Waffen SS actively were. 

      Are there war criminals that deserved to be punished? Likely, yes. But her entire army? Most of them, who are probably normal people with normal lives, serving their country? Not only is it a horrible idea, but you're also taking away the moral highground that Republic City has - or at least clai​ms to have. 

      It's also highly impractical, will make the job of policing the several dozen new states very difficult, it will piss a lot of people in the Earth Nation off - families with people who are in that army, and many people probably still view Kuvira's army as the force that brought peace to the country. It may have been a harsh, repressive peace, but people are generally able to stomach quite a bit when they're no longer starving and having to worry about their village being burned to the ground by warlords or bandits. 

      In short... executing her army would be impractical - if not impossible - arguably immoral, and the Earth Nation would flip their collective shit. Executing Bataar will never happen, because of Suyin. Executing Kuvira - while far less dangerous than killing her army wholesale - is still a dangerous move, even if it is justifiable. They could get away with stripping her of her bending and exiling her to an island prison for a few decades. Maybe after everything has settled down, she might get house-arrest. I doubt it, but who knows. 

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    • Part of that execution idea would definitely hinge on her cause being substantial after the catastrophic defeat in book 4 and the fact that her government was so centralized. Didn't Korra sort of execute Unalaq? That one wasn't really by choice as much as Korra might not know of any other way to defeat a spirit other than spirit bending (which destroys the spirit from the implications and creator answers)?

      The house-arrest/exile/non-prison prison solution could work but the Red Lotus were essentially kept in prison for over a decade. Even Zaheer, a non-bender. It was only about a decade so maybe after 20 years or so they could let out Kuvira. Not sure where she would be house-arrest though or what she would do.

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    • Korra spoke of attempting to save Unalaq, but he was too far gone, melded with Vaatu.

      Remove Kuvira's bending and lock her away in a red lotus-grade prison.

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    • Love Robin wrote:
      Korra spoke of attempting to save Unalaq, but he was too far gone, melded with Vaatu.

      Remove Kuvira's bending and lock her away in a red lotus-grade prison.

      Eh, the purpose of those prisons was to have places were you could store dangerous criminals who had the ability to bend - it just so happened that three of the four were bending prodigies, so extreme (and arguably inhumane) methods were required. If you take her bending away, she becomes a normal person, and can be held in a normal prison - probably on some island off the coast of the Earth Nation where it would be difficult (if not impossible) for her to escape. 

      But over all - yes. I agree with the sentiment.

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    • Who could actually take away her powers? Korra just knows that method to reverse the bloodbending or that technique of Aang's to remove bending. If she could remove bending, I would thought Zaheer wouldn't be floating in his cell by now?

      Besides, why the hell wouldn't the White Lotus know chi blocking themselves if they were guarding these kind of prisoners? Or get some Kyoshi Warriors to guard them? 

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      Who could actually take away her powers? Korra just knows that method to reverse the bloodbending or that technique of Aang's to remove bending. If she could remove bending, I would thought Zaheer wouldn't be floating in his cell by now?

      Besides, why the hell wouldn't the White Lotus know chi blocking themselves if they were guarding these kind of prisoners? Or get some Kyoshi Warriors to guard them? 

      I was under the impression that she knew how to energybend - I don't think "calming spirits" is a form of sub-bending, and I'm sure she'd at least remember how to energybend after the restored Lin's bending (I'm sure Lin wasn't the only one she restored, too). 

      Oh, I'm sure they do, but I don't think chi-blocking is that much of a science; rather, I don't think it's that predictable or reliable. It's great to have, but I don't think it's always a guarantee. This may be sounding circular or something, but I don't think it's as effective as just being able to take away bending; and since Korra should (theoretically) be able to energybend, she should be able to do it. 

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    • If you're referring to the gold water thing, that is absolutely a subform of waterbending.

      Regarding removing Bending, it goes weirdly unaddressed, though it can be assumed that Korra was in no shape to remove Zaheer's bending until recently, & either had bigger problems to worry about or chose to let him keep it.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      If you're referring to the gold water thing, that is absolutely a subform of waterbending.

      Regarding removing Bending, it goes weirdly unaddressed, though it can be assumed that Korra was in no shape to remove Zaheer's bending until recently, & either had bigger problems to worry about or chose to let him keep it.

      I mean, does she absolutely have to have waterbending in order to be able to calm the spirits? Couldn't she just as easily do it with fire, or air?

      Yeah, I understand why Zaheer didn't have it removed - I mean, he did temporarily cripple Korra - but it seems like there isn't much he can do with it now, so that may be the reason why he still has it. Or, they at least make it seem like there's nothing he can do to escape now. I don't know. 

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    • CommanderZeta wrote:
      Bersarker wrote:
      Can anyone give me the proper reason of why Kuvira, Baatar and their army cannot be executed? If they can't get executed, they should be sent in exile

      and being banned from the Earth Kingdom forever. That is what I like.

      I have told you. At least once. 

      Executing her could cause an international crisis, make her a martyr for her cause, undermine the Avatar's moral authority (I mean, they didn't execute Ozai, and he deserved it more than Kuvira), and throw the Earth Nation into turmoil. 

      Suyin would never let Bataar be executed. Period. 

      Her army? That'd be like rounding up every German soldier during WWII - including the Wehrmacht, KriegsmarineLuftwaffe, and any normal branch of the military - and massacring them wholesale. While war crimes were committed by some parts of these organizations, there were not inherently out to genocide Europe into extinction - where as the SS and it's paramilitary branch of the Waffen SS actively were. 

      Are there war criminals that deserved to be punished? Likely, yes. But her entire army? Most of them, who are probably normal people with normal lives, serving their country? Not only is it a horrible idea, but you're also taking away the moral highground that Republic City has - or at least clai​ms to have. 

      It's also highly impractical, will make the job of policing the several dozen new states very difficult, it will piss a lot of people in the Earth Nation off - families with people who are in that army, and many people probably still view Kuvira's army as the force that brought peace to the country. It may have been a harsh, repressive peace, but people are generally able to stomach quite a bit when they're no longer starving and having to worry about their village being burned to the ground by warlords or bandits. 

      In short... executing her army would be impractical - if not impossible - arguably immoral, and the Earth Nation would flip their collective shit. Executing Bataar will never happen, because of Suyin. Executing Kuvira - while far less dangerous than killing her army wholesale - is still a dangerous move, even if it is justifiable. They could get away with stripping her of her bending and exiling her to an island prison for a few decades. Maybe after everything has settled down, she might get house-arrest. I doubt it, but who knows. 

      Well... the exile idea is kind of better. But if killed did an option here, I like to use to banish them forever!

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    • Not sure if this was taken into account, but to remove bending via energybending, it comes down to a battle of the wills, Aang almost didn't overcome Ozai. A broken Kuvira might reasonably succumb to EOS Korra, but Zaheer might not lose and could destroy her and possibly the Avatar Spirit with her.

      As it was shown to us, removing someone's bending through energybending is extremely dangerous and it is a really big deal. Aang did it because he refused to (knowingly) directly take someone's life but needed an alternative to decisively defeat Ozai. It could easily be argued it was irresponsible of him to attempt it (though, it could also be argued that because of that, it showed it would work as his spirit was "unbendable").

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    • Considering how easily Kuvira caved at the end and gave up, I don't think Korra would have too much difficulty. 

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    • CommanderZeta wrote:

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      If you're referring to the gold water thing, that is absolutely a subform of waterbending.

      Regarding removing Bending, it goes weirdly unaddressed, though it can be assumed that Korra was in no shape to remove Zaheer's bending until recently, & either had bigger problems to worry about or chose to let him keep it.

      I mean, does she absolutely have to have waterbending in order to be able to calm the spirits? Couldn't she just as easily do it with fire, or air?

      Yeah, I understand why Zaheer didn't have it removed - I mean, he did temporarily cripple Korra - but it seems like there isn't much he can do with it now, so that may be the reason why he still has it. Or, they at least make it seem like there's nothing he can do to escape now. I don't know. 

      Spiritbending works because Waterbending has the explicit ability to redirect chi flow. No other element has demonstrated this, though firebending has shown at least the ability to read chi paths.

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    • Do you guys think banish Kuvira, Baatar and their army and banned them and their descendants to come into the Earth Kingdom forever would be a good idea?

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    • So now that kuvira is defeated is Zaheer going to go back to trying to kill korra or is he a changed man?

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    • Bersarker wrote:
      Do you guys think banish Kuvira, Baatar and their army and banned them and their descendants to come into the Earth Kingdom forever would be a good idea?

      For foreigners expulsion of patriots of Earth Nations is the final success. For a Earth Nation deprived of patriots means to lose power.This is another platitude.

      PS: Why all of this the questions? Do you think that the bread grows on trees?

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    • Thebridge14 wrote: So now that kuvira is defeated is Zaheer going to go back to trying to kill korra or is he a changed man?

      Neither, he's stuck in a hole. But aside from that, he pretty much said that he was only helping because their interests aligned "for now."

      Do you guys think banish Kuvira, Baatar and their army and banned them and their descendants to come into the Earth Kingdom forever would be a good idea?

      As was said before, penalizing the ENTIRE army is unrealistic. I don't see the benefit of exile over execution. It might cause an uproar? Do it quietly.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Not sure if this was taken into account, but to remove bending via energybending, it comes down to a battle of the wills, Aang almost didn't overcome Ozai. A broken Kuvira might reasonably succumb to EOS Korra, but Zaheer might not lose and could destroy her and possibly the Avatar Spirit with her.

      As it was shown to us, removing someone's bending through energybending is extremely dangerous and it is a really big deal. Aang did it because he refused to (knowingly) directly take someone's life but needed an alternative to decisively defeat Ozai. It could easily be argued it was irresponsible of him to attempt it (though, it could also be argued that because of that, it showed it would work as his spirit was "unbendable").

      The Ozai fight was certainly a battle of wills but the second usage of the "permanent" block against Yakone seemed to lack that element. But maybe Aang was so much stronger in that regard there wasn't a fight? There wasn't even that element of danger present too.

      I doubt a defeated and demoralized Kuvira would have stood any chance during the finale. The lack of any bending removal simply feels like an Aang element and the creators really wanted to break from that older story. It wasn't even an option in LoK books 2, 3, or 4.

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    • Ozai was a master firebender under the influence of Sozin's Comet.  While Yakone was a master waterbender, it wasn't night, much less a full moon.  Also, he was probably too startled and demoralized to put up much of a fight.

      As to Kuvira: my guess is that they contrived something akin to Ghazan's cell.  Or, alternately, something platinum.

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    • There's certainly enough leftover platinum to make a cell. Maybe an entire prison too.

      Yakone didn't have the moon, but there was enough "talent" in that bloodline to do bending that required it. Probably wasn't used because it wasn't really needed. What would a battle of wills between them positively affect the story about a flashback? The only way is that it could have played the moral desire for revenge, which was already present.

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    • They wouldn't need to make an elaborate prison if they can get Korra to take her bending away. All they would need would be a small compound/prison on a remote island far enough from the Earth Nation where the White Lotus can keep an eye on her and prevent any chance of escape. Like how Napoleon was under permanent house-arrest on St. Helena, until his death in 1821. 

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    • Zaheer is more of a risk with bending like mentioned before kuvira is demoralized so taking her bending would add insult to injury, we know the second Zaheer gets his cuffs off he's flying away to go kill some world leader, seriously his bending needs to be removed!

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    • Who's agree with me about having Kuvira banish from the Earth Kingdom for eternity?

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    • Aang while facing Ozai was up against an incredibly strong willed opponent and he was new to all of this. Yakone, while an incredibly powerful bender, may not have had the same kind of willpower that Ozai had, on top of that, Aang was a well established Avatar by the time he encountered the latter.

      One thing Kuvira had going for her, before the final defeat at least, was that she was incredibly strong willed. Korra was very stubborn and hot headed, for sure, but whether or not that translates into useful willpower, is another matter. And if say, Korra knows how to lock out bending and tried to before Kuvira witnessed the blast against the spirit cannon, Korra might not have been able to pull it off. Certainly very risky for a relatively low payout.

      Also, as for the removal of bending ability, I get the impression that it is a huge deal to do this in its own right, risk to the blocker themselves aside. Like, the blocker is robbing the bender of a part of their identity. The two instances we saw Aang do this it was with incredibly powerful benders who short of killing them, was seemingly the only way to truly bring them down. Ozai was sitting king of the Fire Nation and its conquered territories, with a large following and arguably the most powerful firebender of his time. This decisive defeat was necessary to stop his movement, and even then, Aang hesitated to do the removal until Ozai tried to resume his attack after that point. Yakone, clearly couldn't be anywhere near water or another living being, as he could control it with bloodbending, he proved way too dangerous as he was willing and able to harm others. Short of killing them, I don't really see much realistic alternatives.

      Kuvira was more like Ozai in these regards, however the distinction seems to lie in that at no point do I think Korra could have definitely beaten Kuvira in the "battle of will" while Kuvira was unwilling to surrender -unlike Ozai, when Kuvira was defeated and saw it, she quit. Ozai probably never would so long as he had his bending. Ozai's power was his bending, Kuvira's, while an impressive bender, was more from her influence.

      In Zaheer's case, I think the world could benefit from learning from him. Some things he holds true are dangerous for the order they have, but at the same time, he does have a valuable insight into how things do and should work and his actions ultimately did lead to a better Earth Nation, he dirtied his hands, but some drastic intervention was necessary. He's also a fountainhead of Air Nomad philosophy and undeniably has some valuable insight into the culture and secrets of airbending and is apparently willing to help even an enemy of his by providing or utilizing his knowledge to help them better themselves, if he thinks it will benefit others.

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      There's certainly enough leftover platinum to make a cell. Maybe an entire prison too.

      Yakone didn't have the moon, but there was enough "talent" in that bloodline to do bending that required it. Probably wasn't used because it wasn't really needed. What would a battle of wills between them positively affect the story about a flashback? The only way is that it could have played the moral desire for revenge, which was already present.

      What I meant was that Ozai was operating under a significant power boost that probably hiked up his morale.  Yakone wasn't.

      Thebridge14 wrote:
      Zaheer is more of a risk with bending like mentioned before kuvira is demoralized so taking her bending would add insult to injury, we know the second Zaheer gets his cuffs off he's flying away to go kill some world leader, seriously his bending needs to be removed!

      Zaheer was considered dangerous enough to warrant a supermax cell as a badass-normal. 

      Mind you, my guess is that their concern, at the time that said cell was built, wasn't Zaheer spontaneously becoming an airbender; it was (for example) P'Li escaping the crevasse and blasting the roof off the damn thing.  (Or, alternately, that Zaheer could break people by talking—although, to be honest, I think most people would get sick of the Guru Laghima quotes long before he could succeed at that—and would pick up a following in a standard prison.)  But it still remains that Zaheer, as a badass-normal, was considered dangerous enough to warrant that cell.

      At any rate: I don't think depowering him would be enough.

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    • Why no ones listen to me? Banish forever is not that bad, right?

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    • CommanderZeta wrote:
      They wouldn't need to make an elaborate prison if they can get Korra to take her bending away. All they would need would be a small compound/prison on a remote island far enough from the Earth Nation where the White Lotus can keep an eye on her and prevent any chance of escape. Like how Napoleon was under permanent house-arrest on St. Helena, until his death in 1821. 

      Put her on Kyoshi's Island. It has all those potential warriors to guard her and there's even the irony thing going on after Kuvira crushed the Kyoshi medal of freedom. Payback, big time.

      @Deist Zealot: The point being is that there wasn't even a fight or battle of wills with the block. Almost exactly like what happened when Amon was blocking the bending of everyone. The reactions of the victims is just about the same too. Even the idea of "risk" to the blocker (Aang in this case) isn't even present during the flashback.

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    • I wanna know something. Did Kuvira know about the waterbenders of the Swamp Tribe in the Foggy Swamp. And if she know, will she try to get rid of them?

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    • Bersarker wrote:
      I wanna know something. Did Kuvira know about the waterbenders of the Swamp Tribe in the Foggy Swamp. And if she know, will she try to get rid of them?

      I'm certain she knew about them - in their modern and interconnected world, how could they not? It's an entire society of people living in the Earth Nation. Hell, Tahno's got that swamp-bender blood in him (I think?) and he lived in Republic City.

      We didn't even see them when Korra explored the swamp, so there's no guarantee that they're still there. But if they were, she'd probably force them off their land and relocate them. Like an internment camp, or maybe a... reservation? Who knows. At the very least, they'd be in the way of her harvesting the vines, and they'd have to go. 

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    • They're still there.  Toph mentioned that they're intimidated by her.

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    • CommanderZeta wrote:
      Bersarker wrote:
      I wanna know something. Did Kuvira know about the waterbenders of the Swamp Tribe in the Foggy Swamp. And if she know, will she try to get rid of them?
      I'm certain she knew about them - in their modern and interconnected world, how could they not? It's an entire society of people living in the Earth Nation. Hell, Tahno's got that swamp-bender blood in him (I think?) and he lived in Republic City.

      We didn't even see them when Korra explored the swamp, so there's no guarantee that they're still there. But if they were, she'd probably force them off their land and relocate them. Like an internment camp, or maybe a... reservation? Who knows. At the very least, they'd be in the way of her harvesting the vines, and they'd have to go. 

      What about the Northern Air Temple? I mean... if  Zaheer and his Red Lotus didn't destroy it.

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    • life in prison likely. probably something similar to zaheer.

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    • That's what I'm thinking too.

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    • To answer the question directly, I think she was probably put in prison for decades or life. I don't think Korra would have allowed her to to be executed...and I doubt Suyin would have allowed it either. If she did, she certainly would have regretted it later.

      As for the trial, I doubt she had one. Based on her words and actions toward  the end of the finale, she would have just plead guilty and been sentenced to whatever they saw fit. Had she not acted the way she did--to me it's like she had a 'come-to-jesus' moment...but that might not mean the same to you as it does to me, so...just ignore this--I would guess the case would have gone to trial, she would have said morethan her piece in the very Kuvira way she does and probably would have gotten a decently light sentence. Still imprisonment, but maybe not as much as if she had just plead guilty. (I mean plead guilty in the scenario in which she does not have her emotional spill-her-guts-apologize-to-suyin thingy).


      Something I think some people are forgetting is exactly how similar Kuvira and Korra are. The writers of the show did that on purpose, you know. Kuvira may have been a villan, but she had good intentions. She went about doing the right thing the wrong way. I kind of relate her to Brutus from the Shakespeare play Julius Caesar: at the end of the play, Mark Antony declares Brutus the noblest Roman ever to live, even though Brutus killed Mark Antony's best friend...and his own best friend, too. The other conspirators persuaded him Caesar was too ambitious for Rome, and so Brutus sacrificed his dear friend for what he thought was the greater good, just like Kuvira almost did with Baatar Jr. The good of her people was more important than her own happiness, which is hard for many people to accept. Despite the fact it's cruel, it is right. Yes, Kuvira could have left Republic City alone, but she wanted to make the Earth Empire whole again, possibly because she herself wanted to be whole again, not just because she wanted more land and people to rule over. As for her methods...Kuvira didn't need to cleanse the kingdom of benders who were not earthbenders, but putting naysayers into reeducation camps is not completely illogical. Cruel, yes, but not illogical. These naysayers could have rallied anough people behind them to tear the Earth Empire to pieces again, and Kuvira would not--could not allow that to happen. Kuvira herself was abandoned, a feeling she loathed, and she refused to let her people feel the same way.

      I think that Korra, had she ended up in a situation similar to Kuvira's, would have done almost exactly what Kuvira did. I still that that if Korra had to choose between the world and Asami, much like how Kuvira had to choose between her people and Baatar, she would choose the world, but not because she doesn't love Asami, simply because she has a duty to the rest of humanity. Even if Korra and Kuvira followed different paths, they easily could have overlapped. Korra understands Kuvira, and that shows that Kuvira is not evil. Just misled.

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    • The very second you hear that Kuvira is crazy, the whole notion that her and Korra are similar pretty much go out the window. Even before that scene, its only Bolin (Bolin!) that brings up the idea of them being similar. Once you get that crazy scene, the story itself pretty much throws out the similarity factor.

      Good intentions alone don't make two character similar, it takes more than that. The creators tried to do that through various means like saying the two characters have similar structures but ultimately fail because they were not able to really do it. Put the two together, such as that first fight between them, and you see two radically different people.

      Amon and Zaheer had "good" intentions too: Amon wanting equality, although he did not realizing he was simply following what his father wanted all along. Zaheer wanted freedom for people. In fact, the whole Toph speech about the three previous villains, is about characters taking things way way too far. Kuvira is just another link in that chain. Even the idea that Unalaq wanted people to be closer to spirits, and ignoring all the problems with that, is somewhat justified by Korra's decision to keep the portals open. 

      The decisions Kuvira make don't really come across as the type of decisions Korra would make. The idea of overlap doesn't really work based on that alone and what we know about the characters. Kyoshi and Kuvira maybe and that's because of the similar nature of the two. Korra and Kuvira just don't share that aspect in the narrative and we haven't even touched on the very different backgrounds and developments of the two. 

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    • Korra would not choose "the World" over Asami. Just as she choose Jinora over the world in B2.

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    • Compare Kuvira and villains of previous seasons not a good idea in my opinion.

      Amon did not fight for equality between people. He just destroyed all that different from the standard. One can imagine a communist who wants to destroy the factories instead of nationalizing them. Such a crazy communist this is Amon. That is, it is not communism, it is Inquisition.

      Unalaq just wanted to throw the world in to 10,000 years of darkness.

      Zaheer was really an anarchist. Although not all anarchists fight for his ideals with terrorist methods. And of course not all anarchists are ready to throw people themselves to solve the problems created by this anarchist. They has its political and economic program.

      Kuvira did everything correctly (except the underestimation of the enemy). She was the only character that really work for the Earth Nation. All other character or standing on the sidelines, or served her, or fighting against her. That is, if Amon is a bad example of the communist and Zaheer is a bad example of the anarchist then Kuvira is correct and positive example of the patriot.

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    • I think Amon may well have been dedicated to the cause. He disliked bending and viewed it as a source of strife, though paradoxically, used bending to eliminate bending.

      His problem with benders was this natural ability they were born with that gave them a huge advantage that he felt they exploited against nonbenders. It created a caste system with people who clearly had advantages over others as a result. He had the power to remove that, hence, his movement.

      Funny you should liken him to a communist destroying factories rather than nationalizing them, as Amon's movement extensively used factories and technology to work toward their goal.

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    • Sense comparison was as follows: bending can be used for the benefit of all the people or Amon can simply delete it. Amon chose the second option. But it was possible to do otherwise. For example request to benders brought to public works or training nonbenders strikes of Kung Fu who tripping bending became public and free of charge.

      That is, although the decision of Amun was partly justified. Bender in any case can more than the nonbender. That is, the nonbender has the knowledge, skills and technology and bender have the knowledge, skills, technology and bending. And this birthright, whose absence can never be compensated.

      But the method that Amon was going to solve this problem led to a decrease in total power of people. While there would be a method which resolves the problem, and (at least partially) stores the total power of people.

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    • May I ask, what will happen if Korra didn't disappear while the Earth Kingdom go into chaotic state? Will Kuvira using the way of conquest or just let the Avatar did her job?

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    • She certainly deserves to be punished (Bataar too, he is equally guilty), but life imprisonment seems like a complete waste to me. Kuvira is way too gifted, and unlike the other villains in the series she actually realized that she had gone too far.

      Kuvira is repentant and one of the most powerful metalbenders around...I think she can do a lot of good if the world leaders give her a second chance. Maybe a few years in prison...and then they could commute her sentence into something less punitive...and more restorative. Because letting her rot in prison is doing no one any good, so why not use her incredible metalbending and earthbending powers to help develop the Earth Kingdom (basically some sort of "community service")? I think that woud be a more fitting punishment, especially because she did a lot of good for the Earth Kingdom territories when no one else would.

      In addition, Korra was risking her life and the whole avatar circle just to save Kuvira's life...only to let her to rot in prison forever?  I really don't see the point – these scenes with Korra and Kuvira were about compassion, right? But considering Kuvira's issues and the prison system for benders in the avatar universe (solitary confinement and chains), life imprisonment would probably be a worse fate than death. It would have been more compassionate to let her die if that's the plan.

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    • Something I think some people are forgetting is exactly how similar Kuvira and Korra are. The writers of the show did that on purpose, you know.

      I'm actually going to agree with everyone calling BS on this. Okay, sure, the writers drew parallels, but they were superficial similarities at best. At no point has Korra ever earned my scorn as Kuvira has. If you think this is just my arbitrary whims, consider that she's a teenage female fighting prodigy with an angry streak & a penchant for Firebending--does that make her Azula?

      Kuvira may have been a villan, but she had good intentions. She went about doing the right thing the wrong way.

      What she had was an obsession with having the biggest murderboner in all of the 5 Nations.

      The good of her people was more important than her own happiness, which is hard for many people to accept. Despite the fact it's cruel, it is right.

      No, it's not "right," & this isn't an issue of "lol I don't understand the greater good," because the whole thing was simply UNNECESSARY. She DIDN'T NEED the United Republic land, & even if she did, there were less psychotic ways to get out of that situation. She didn't even have to give up her stupid murderboner plans, all she had to do was agree to a negotiation & use it as a ruse to rescue Bataar Jr. & assassinate her enemies. No, I don't buy it, if you "love" someone, you're a LITTLE bit more conflicted about killing them, you would TRY to find other options.

      possibly because she herself wanted to be whole again, not just because she wanted more land and people to rule over.

      I reiterate that personal baggage is not an excuse for committing atrocities. The only difference between that & "I just wanted it for my own gain" is that the latter is honest.

      As for her methods...Kuvira didn't need to cleanse the kingdom of benders who were not earthbenders, but putting naysayers into reeducation camps is not completely illogical. Cruel, yes, but not illogical. These naysayers could have rallied anough people behind them to tear the Earth Empire to pieces again, and Kuvira would not--could not allow that to happen.

      Every country could use this excuse, it's unchecked paranoia that is rather odd coming from someone who's supposedly "for the people." And it's really not that different from purging those pesky minorities, the "logical reasons" for that are much the same: It gives the nation a sense of being "one united people" & they make a convenient scapegoat since their concerns may "divide" the state, especially if they might have alliances to people in enemy nations.

      I think that Korra, had she ended up in a situation similar to Kuvira's, would have done almost exactly what Kuvira did.

      Except she WAS in similar situations. As much as Kuvira whines about restoring order in the Earth Kingdom, Korra did that after the Equalist Rebellion & the Water Tribe Civil War. "But she had help!" you might say. Well, yeah, that's because she ACCEPTED it instead of throwing everyone who argued with her in jail or killing them.

      Korra understands Kuvira, and that shows that Kuvira is not evil. Just misled.

      Actions speak louder than words.

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    • Both wanted to/did use force to resolve problems. Both fought for their views on how things should be. Parallels can be drawn between many otherwise unlike characters, but on some general concepts, these two did have some meaningful overlap. Would I say the two are two sides of the same coin? Probably not, but comparisons can be drawn. Likewise, I wouldn't immediately liken Korra to Azula, but they do indeed have some similarities.

      She did want the land, she was willing to go to war for it. But "murderboner?" Not really. The idea seemed to be to intimidate them into surrendering without having to actually fire on the city. A "murderboner" I'd expect no terms, just l4z0rz without warning.

      Perhaps our history is psychotic, but declaring war and fighting over land has been a staple of foreign policy in our world for, like, ever.

      I think the problem with your idea there about the negotiations is that Bataar was the negotiator and RC broke the truce and captured a diplomat. Added to that, Bataar had knowledge of the Colossus and was a threat if they successfully interogated him, on top of the fact that Kuvira then discovered the location of URN's WMD, the Avatar, which would continue to resist EE regardless. Now, he was a poor choice to accept their surrender IMO, because he was so important for their tech, but, that's how it went down.

      As for trying to save him. You may not be convinced, but really, some people do operate that way and it was very pragmatic of her to make the choice she did. Plotshielding notwithstanding, Kuvira won right there when she fired on the Avatar/Bataar's location.

      As for "atrocities" she fought a war over a border dispute. Yes, she had a WMD, and used it against military targets and a largely evacuated city (that turned down the surrender and captured her envoy). If we get past the WMD stigma, would it really have been different if she carpet bombed instead? If she had her tanks mow through the city, shelling buildings? Comparing her actions to actual wars in our world, I'm not really seeing her being so out of line with actual battles and commanders. Is that a matter of us as people being really messed up? Or is she being judged unfairly?

      About them "restoring order" sounds like more parallels between the two to me.

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    • Wondering what will happen after the Earth Kingdom go independent? The remaining of the Earth Kingdom royalty split the kingdoms and made their own principalities?

      That would be awesome one, if you guys ask me.

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    • Bersarker wrote: Wondering what will happen after the Earth Kingdom go independent? The remaining of the Earth Kingdom royalty split the kingdoms and made their own principalities?

      That would be awesome one, if you guys ask me.

      That is not exactly "elected officials". That is a series of fiefdoms. Not to say that if any of the Royal Family still exists they cannot run for office, but it is not what you suggest.

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    • It's entirely possible - considering how monarchies work and the nature of feudalism - that some of those provinces were already ruled by members of the Royal Family, but were subject to the Kingdom centered in Ba-Sing-Se; in other words, there might have already been dukes and counts along side other scattered kings (like Bumi I), that ruled parts of the Earth Nation.

      In which case, I'd say that it clearly didn't work. And without a central monarch keeping them contained and unified, you could have dynastic wars over titles and land between the claimaints. Which could be just as bad as the chaos that erupted after Hou-Ting's assassination. So no - it's a bad idea. I'd almost rather they all be independent republics, but that in no way means they wont go to war. 

      As far as royals being elected into office... I know it has happened in real life, in the case of Simeon II, the last Tsar of Bulgaria (overthrown by the Soviets in 1946). After the country became a republic (free of Soviet influence in the 90s) he returned home and ran for election to become the nation's Prime Minister in 2001.

      For the love of God, anything less than an Earth Federation or Earth Union could destroy any hope of stability on the continent. I say it's not worth the risk, when you can give the states the autonomy they want and keep the Earth Nation at the same time. 

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    • Both wanted to/did use force to resolve problems. Both fought for their views on how things should be. Parallels can be drawn between many otherwise unlike characters, but on some general concepts, these two did have some meaningful overlap. Would I say the two are two sides of the same coin? Probably not, but comparisons can be drawn. Likewise, I wouldn't immediately liken Korra to Azula, but they do indeed have some similarities.

      Yeah? I was disputing the claims that they're "basically the same" & Korra would "do the same thing in the same situation." Sounds like we agree there.

      She did want the land, she was willing to go to war for it. But "murderboner?" Not really. The idea seemed to be to intimidate them into surrendering without having to actually fire on the city. A "murderboner" I'd expect no terms, just l4z0rz without warning.

      Maybe, we don't really know what her endgame was for her war prisoners. Seeing the way she treats even closest ally & "love of her life," though, I'm not inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt.

      Perhaps our history is psychotic, but declaring war and fighting over land has been a staple of foreign policy in our world for, like, ever.

      I doubt you intended it this way, but this is a straw man. I am not saying that going to war for any reason is psychotic, or even going to war over land, I'm saying that, under the circumstances, Kuvira's reason for going to war was just plain psychotic. Bear in mind:

      1. The land was legally given. 2. The country has been doing fine without it for 70+ years. 3. The Earth Empire clearly didn't need it to rise to prominence.

      There's clearly no need for it & it's not a reaction against any recent attack, so literally the only reason for this conflict is "Screw you, it's MINE," which I would characterize as psychotic. Yes, this happens in the real world, no that doesn't automatically make it reasonable.

      I think the problem with your idea there about the negotiations is that Bataar was the negotiator and RC broke the truce and captured a diplomat. Added to that, Bataar had knowledge of the Colossus and was a threat if they successfully interogated him, on top of the fact that Kuvira then discovered the location of URN's WMD, the Avatar, which would continue to resist EE regardless. Now, he was a poor choice to accept their surrender IMO, because he was so important for their tech, but, that's how it went down.

      First of all, it's pretty clear that this was the Avatar & her friends acting on their own, not the URN breaking the truce, second of all, I'm still suggesting she kills the Avatar, just with an alternate method. If the "problem" is that this might fail, that kinda already happened with her existing plan. You call it "plot shielding," but truth be told, there was no guarantee that just firing on the factory would have killed Korra.

      As for trying to save him. You may not be convinced, but really, some people do operate that way and it was very pragmatic of her to make the choice she did. Plotshielding notwithstanding, Kuvira won right there when she fired on the Avatar/Bataar's location.

      Yes, it's quite easy to write someone's life off because saving them would be slightly more inconvenient if you don't actually love them. Being a psychopath in general would probably help too.

      As for "atrocities" she fought a war over a border dispute.

      Well, yeah, war in general, ESPECIALLY unjustified war, is an atrocity.

      Is that a matter of us as people being really messed up?

      Well, for one thing, again you keep saying, "This happens in the real world" with the implication that it makes it justified. In fact, we do recognize these things as war crimes & try to put sanctions on them. Some more successfully than others, but the point is, we at least recognize that these things are bad.

      Or is she being judged unfairly?

      I'm not being harsh enough. I haven't even called her subhuman garbage yet.

      About them "restoring order" sounds like more parallels between the two to me.

      Amon wanted "order." Ozai wanted "order." They're not the SAME "order." There are similarities between any 2 people, often, the differences are the important part.

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    • CommanderZeta wrote:

      It's entirely possible - considering how monarchies work and the nature of feudalism - that some of those provinces were already ruled by members of the Royal Family, but were subject to the Kingdom centered in Ba-Sing-Se; in other words, there might have already been dukes and counts along side other scattered kings (like Bumi I), that ruled parts of the Earth Nation.

      In which case, I'd say that it clearly didn't work. And without a central monarch keeping them contained and unified, you could have dynastic wars over titles and land between the claimaints. Which could be just as bad as the chaos that erupted after Hou-Ting's assassination. So no - it's a bad idea. I'd almost rather they all be independent republics, but that in no way means they wont go to war. 

      For the love of God, anything less than an Earth Federation or Earth Union could destroy any hope of stability on the continent. I say it's not worth the risk, when you can give the states the autonomy they want and keep the Earth Nation at the same time. 

      The choice to put Wu on the throne is partially made because of a lack of other choices, if any actually exist. If anything there seems to be a number of cases of parts of the EK being somewhat independent but still feeling like they belong "loosely" to the nation.

      As for the entire "good" intentions things, it doesn't really matter her intentions. What matters is what she actually did and that's what she should be responsible for: the destruction of RC, the purges, the labor camps, and so on.

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