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  • Seriously! I don't see the entire series being that all greater than how you may think of it being. I mean don't get me wrong! Avatar The Last Airbender 'IS' thrilling and the stories are good and deep, but I could think of 'A LOT' of shows that are far superior and enduring than it. Also, why all the hate over the sequel? Sure it doesn't have many of the ingredients that made Avatar The Last Airbender great, so what! It's it's 'OWN' story with it's 'OWN' rules and it's 'OWN' path! You could think of it being like Digimon, when they change seasons, it's different stories to each have it's own charm, as well as variety! Also, like those, Korra as a whole, could be boiled down to as an experimental series, a direction in which the creators long wanted to try out. If you don't like it, then it'll help them to learn from their mistakes when they create the next Avatar series. It's as simple as that! Though to my opinion, you should be thankful for what you've got as Legend of Korra now, otherwise you would've gotten something in which would be A LOT WORSE!!!

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    • Simple, many fanboys are completley blinded by nostalgia. I love TLA but people are just plain stupid sometimes.

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    • Nostalgia; people never see the sequel as good enough compared to the original

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    • QueenCeline wrote: Nostalgia; people never see the sequel as good enough compared to the original

      They mostly believe in a formula that goes First series = Make a series! Gain sequel, midquel and prequel = Make more money!

      I personally couldn't care less, as long as the sequel is good! Which it is!

      Sometimes sequels, midquels and prequel are planned at the exact same time as the main series, and are just created to put in more details in which the main series couldn't fit in.

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    • i hate nostalgia! it's all "the original was the best. everything after that sucks."

      i like both series, but unfortunately i haven't see ATLA since it was taken off netflix. I think that both series explore their themes very nicely. ATLA's theme of war and destiny is well done. it contributes a lot of aspects associated with those themes; oppression, enemy occupattion, loss of loved ones, genocide, denial of fate, acceptance of fate, and coups. LoK's themes are those never explored in ATLA, such the relationship of benders and non-benders, the nature of spirits, and the real need of the avatar. I enjoy the characters of both series, though LoK's characters are far less humorus than ATLA's, which i can appreciate alot since a lot of humor bothers me somewhat in a overall dramatic series.

      But why should it matter what anyone else thinks? if you like something, then that is all should matter to you. If someone dislikes the same thing that you like, then just accept that they don't share your opinions of said thing and move on. My brother doesn't like LoK and i accept that. people like portal and i don't, which accept none the less

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    • It's just a bunch of Avatar genwunners.  

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    • You could think of it being like Digimon, when they change seasons, it's different stories to each have it's own charm, as well as variety!

      This is an interesting analogy, since it's a pretty broad consensus that Season 3 is the best. Though technically that started the alternate continuities--the ACTUAL canonical sequel to Season 1 (Season 2) is generally agreed to be one of the worst. Still, I don't think anyone would have cared if Season 3 was directly connected to Seasons 1 & 2, since Ryo was in the Digimon Adventure games & most of the Japanese fans knew this. In fact, the games made a ridiculous attempt to link the 2 continuities that makes no bloody sense, but doesn't appear to bother people.

      Tangent aside, I think the hate has really died down. Much like Mike & Bryan predicted, the more people see, the more they understand the plan, & the more satisfied they are with the overall developments.

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    • I actually prefer LOK. It's far better than ATLA (IN MY OPINION)

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    • though honestly I wish they would visit more locations in LoK, which was something I adore in ATLA because you saw an new location almost every episode. Sadly though, LoK stays to the usual locales, which are either Republic City or Zhaofu.

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    • BelgiumHelper wrote:
      I actually prefer LOK. It's far better than ATLA (IN MY OPINION)

      Wow, someone who agrees with me. It must the fish picture.

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    • Incub7 wrote:
      though honestly I wish they would visit more locations in LoK, which was something I adore in ATLA because you saw an new location almost every episode. Sadly though, LoK stays to the usual locales, which are either Republic City or Zhaofu.

      They especially created Republic City so that there would be a new location...

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    • Urano23 wrote:
      Simple, many fanboys are completley blinded by nostalgia. I love TLA but people are just plain stupid sometimes.

      Yep. Pretty much the same answer for "Why such hate for the movie and praise for Avatar The Last Airbender?" Leave the hate unchecked, sooner or later it's going bite you back in your heiney.

      Divided, ratings fall...

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    • Don't know, both series have got their own thing that I like.

      TLA has this more traditional feeling, except for the firenation machinery. I like that traditional stuff.

      LOK has, well, best of two worlds. It's still traditional at some points, but also has got some tech. I don't know which one to like better, I do know that I thought Korra was quite a b*tch when I started watching. But as the story developed, she became quite a good avatar.

      Also, some people say that Korra's weak. I say it's quite realistic that she isn't able to just smash everybody to pieces within three hits or less.

      Sure, the Avatar has quite some power, but that doesn't mean the Avatar should be able to defeat a group of 10 within three good hits unless the Avatar state is activated.

      Well, long story short: They're both awesome.

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    • Well, long story short: They're both awesome.

      I think everyone can agree on that ;)

      Time to lock this thread folks

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    • The problem might be several things. First is the obvious nostalgia part of ATLA and the praise it keeps getting. It wouldn't surprise me if there were quite a number of people who've seen ATLA and just decided to skip LoK. 

      A huge reason is the cast change. People seem to really love the original cast, and having most of the original cast either dead or not relevant can be quite a turn off. How many people gasped and cheered at the re-emergence of Toph for book 4? How many people hated having the past lives (Aang in particular) and their connection to the Avatar destroyed? 

      A part of that is the time difference. We got to know a really unique world in Avatar and suddenly changing it can really scare some people. It doesn't help that we haven't really seen that much of the world. We keep going back to the same locations. Seriously, I've seen enough of Republic City.

      Yes, it doesn't help that some of the new Team Avatar are not quite as good as the original. Mako is incredibly boring, Bolin can be tricked almost all the time, and Asami is just often there to fuel lesbian fantasies of certain people. I'd say that often the side characters (Varrick, Lin, Tenzin, and so on) are often more interesting.

      We should be far more invested in the core of Team Avatar that what we are in LoK. Think of this: we haven't seen Mako in a few episode. Do you really care that he is there?

      There are many other things at play including book 2 almost being a trainwreck, problems with the writing, the direction, a failure to properly articulating themes, missed opportunities, book lengths, and so on. ATLA has some problems with a number of episodes, but overall it functions incredibly well.

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    • There are many other things at play including book 2 almost being a trainwreck, problems with the writing, the direction, a failure to properly articulating themes, missed opportunities, book lengths, and so on. ATLA has some problems with a number of episodes, but overall it functions incredibly well.

      I have to agree with you on the direction. i mean the plot doesn't seem to move forward in a significant way until the post half-way point of the season. of course most episodes in any series are made just to further character development, not always to move the plot forward. 

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    • I think TLOK's plot goes a bit rushed with a lack of character development. I always liked the first few episodes of an Book and then it gets all "a wild villain appears!" *takes rest of book to dispose of them*

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    • Persoanlly, it seems rather rushed. I still ove it to bits. But yeah, moves too fast for me. Even character's skills move fast...and the last series it was ridiculous(Katara being a master waterbender by the end of season 1 was weird...but I so got over it). Now you have Zaheer mastering a element in weeks. 


      Secondly, the show seems to like not answering interesting questions. People rather know what happened between say Tenzin and Lin then the latest thing with mako. Or who're Lin & Su-Yin's baby daddies. Or what happen to Suki and Sokka! Yet this show continues to ignore these and keep us in suspense. I wouldn't care If it was Season 1 or 2...but this is the last book. I'd understand If you're tired of waiting for an answer. 


      Other characters tend to be more interesting, too! I mean, seriously. Who here doesn't want to know how Amon got to where he was? We see s sad flashback from when he was like 4-17...then skip to him in his 40's. It feels incomplete. Then there's Unalaq and the fact we don't clearly know his motive. Free the spirits according to Toph. Why? We got that he was friendly but why was he so darn sinister? Vaatu? They also underutilize so many characters like Jinora. She wants to be a master(is currently)...but do we ever see much of her that says she should be one? 


      The show has it's problems, but I still love it! I just wish they invested more time in getting to know the characters around the show. And slow down. Let us see how the world is changed. And I agree, stop going back to Republic City and utilize Zaofu less before it becomes the new Republic city! 

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    • Yes, the show is still extremely watchable and entertaining. Even more so when the writers finally get themselves into a good rhythm. I just wish it didn't take so long for it to happen.

      Ironically, the creators said that they liked shorter seasons when they've had far more success with longer ones?

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    • Well, I haven't finished watching the original ATLA series, but I find Korra entertaining because it touches upon spiritual and political themes not seen in most other shows. Compared to ATLA, I also like the fact that the LoK characters are older as I was never really sold on the idea that small children could save the world (though I guess teenagers aren't that much better). 

      That being said, I sometimes find the pace of the show to be too fast. I understand, of course, that this has to do with Nickelodeon limiting each season to 13 episodes, but this has led to depth being sacrificed for speed. I also think the series could be stronger if they scrapped the need to introduce a new villain each season.

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    • JayAaerow wrote:
      Persoanlly, it seems rather rushed. I still ove it to bits. But yeah, moves too fast for me. Even character's skills move fast...and the last series it was ridiculous(Katara being a master waterbender by the end of season 1 was weird...but I so got over it). Now you have Zaheer mastering a element in weeks. 

      Other characters tend to be more interesting, too! I mean, seriously. Who here doesn't want to know how Amon got to where he was? We see s sad flashback from when he was like 4-17...then skip to him in his 40's. It feels incomplete. Then there's Unalaq and the fact we don't clearly know his motive. Free the spirits according to Toph. Why? We got that he was friendly but why was he so darn sinister? Vaatu? They also underutilize so many characters like Jinora. She wants to be a master(is currently)...but do we ever see much of her that says she should be one? 

      I think that Zaheer was able to master airbending because of his strong spiritual nature and his vast knowledge of air nomad culture. As for Unalaq, i think that he suffers from what i like to call "Scar Symdrome". I believe much like Scar, Unalaq was very jealous of his brother's heir to the throne, and just again like Scar, he took extreme measures to make sure he'd ascend the throne. But like Ozai, Unalaq wanted more power even if it meant sacrificing his humanity and destroying the world. Of course i wouldn't be surprised that Vaatu was able to amplify Unalaq's dark thoughts for his own advantage. Vaatu saw how powerful a mere human became after fusing with his counterpart, so he thought that if he fused with a human he would have absolute power. if Unavaatu wasn't purified, the Dark Avatar would be reincarnated again and again (if Vaatu was able to ), and everytime the world would be in grave danger when the incarnate reach their full potential. i mean can you imagine the raw destructive power of Dark Avatar State. Sure the Dark Avatar would only be able to bend only one element, but whose to say that a connection to the very embodiment of chaos wouldn't increase the destructive capability of their element immensely.

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    • Off course there is more character development in ATLA, don't forget that LOK has fewer episode to tell a story, while ATLA could take the time for filler-ups..

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      Yes, the show is still extremely watchable and entertaining. Even more so when the writers finally get themselves into a good rhythm. I just wish it didn't take so long for it to happen.

      Ironically, the creators said that they liked shorter seasons when they've had far more success with longer ones?

      yeah, imagine what the show would be if each season was 26 episodes (the average length of many cartoon seasons that I know of).

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    • BelgiumHelper wrote:
      Off course there is more character development in ATLA, don't forget that LOK has fewer episode to tell a story, while ATLA could take the time for filler-ups..

      They could have used those three books to tell a single, overarching story. They are attempting that with the theme of the villains questioning the Avatar's role in the current world, but it just hasn't been as successful as ATLA. A sucessful build up to that singular villain present in the three books of ATLA versus a continual rethread with a "villain of the book" trope going on.

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    • I love ATLA and LOK for different reasons. They both have their strengths and weaknesses 

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      BelgiumHelper wrote:
      Off course there is more character development in ATLA, don't forget that LOK has fewer episode to tell a story, while ATLA could take the time for filler-ups..
      They could have used those three books to tell a single, overarching story. They are attempting that with the theme of the villains questioning the Avatar's role in the current world, but it just hasn't been as successful as ATLA. A sucessful build up to that singular villain present in the three books of ATLA versus a continual rethread with a "villain of the book" trope going on.

      That or they could've introduced all of the villains earlier in Book 2 so we got to know them a bit better before they went "bad". It would have given us more time to know them and built up greater tension before their final showdown with Korra. 

      I also think giving each member of Team Avatar a moment to shine detracts from the overall story. Granted, I love all the supporting cast, even that annoying little Meelo, but I feel the story could be just as strong without some of them. 

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    • Turning a blind eye to criticism is your right, but complaining about the existance of criticism itself is just silly. People have different opinions, you should just accept it. Legend of Korra is a good show, but no show is for everyone. There is always someone who is going to dislike it, no matter how good the show is.

      Also, It is easy to write off praise for ATLA as blind nostalgia and use it as a scapegoat when people start hating LoK. Hard would be to actually take your time to analyze things and realize why they are hating it. Even harder would be to accept different opinions, I suppose.

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    • Peluso Mesquita wrote:
      Turning a blind eye to criticism is your right, but complaining about the existance of criticism itself is just silly. People have different opinions, you should just accept it. Legend of Korra is a good show, but no show is for everyone. There is always someone who is going to dislike it, no matter how good the show is.

      Also, It is easy to write off praise for ATLA as blind nostalgia and use it as a scapegoat when people start hating LoK. Hard would be to actually take your time to analyze things and realize why they are hating it. Even harder would be to accept different opinions, I suppose.

      ^Truth was spoken that day

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    • Hasdi wrote:

      Urano23 wrote:
      Simple, many fanboys are completley blinded by nostalgia. I love TLA but people are just plain stupid sometimes.

      Yep. Pretty much the same answer for "Why such hate for the movie and praise for Avatar The Last Airbender?" Leave the hate unchecked, sooner or later it's going bite you back in your heiney.

      Divided, ratings fall...

      Nope. It's been explained to you numerous times by numerous people that "changes are fine, but they have to make sense," & that more persistent problems relate to dialogue (both writing & delivery), effects, choreography, cinematography, & over-narration, even if we disregard the unnecessary stylistic changes & controversial elements like racebending & weakening Katara.

      Also, It is easy to write off praise for ATLA as blind nostalgia and use it as a scapegoat when people start hating LoK. Hard would be to actually take your time to analyze things and realize why they are hating it. Even harder would be to accept different opinions, I suppose.

      Easy to assume that people haven't analyzed the complaints. I have blog posts that I've written just because I got tired of addressing the same complaints all of the time. They don't cover EVERY subject, in part because some were addressed better by other people before I got around to them, & probably less than half of my posts fit into that category, but they demonstrate the point that I'm not going to write a fresh, in depth review every time someone goes "I think LoK sucks!"

      So here's just 1 quick example of a how we know people will complain a lot about something in Legend of Korra, but tend to downplay when it happens in Avatar:

      "She's so weak, she always needs help or a Deus Ex Machina to defeat the enemy."

      • Aang needs the Ocean Spirit to win at the end of Book 1.
      • He loses at the end of Book 2.
      • He needs the Lion Turtle to be able to defeat Ozai without killing him.

      Aang literally did not come out of ANY of the finales victorious & WITHOUT help from some kind of outside agent/Deus Ex Machina. Acting like this is a reason why Korra sucks, but it doesn't apply to Aang, is a clear case of Nostalgia Goggles.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      It's been explained to you numerous times by numerous people that "changes are fine, but they have to make sense,"

      And as I have explained numerous times, the changes make worked for me. Since you have difficulty making sense of the changes, one of us must be stupid and that offends you. I accept that it is a matter of taste not intelligence. The movie is not for everyone and that's ok. The same goes for Korra and other products of this franchise.

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    • You only "accept that it is a matter of taste" when we call out your spiel that we're irrational/alienating movie fans/basically ruining the franchise. It's like the Observer Effect, the mere act of paying attention to your argument changes it.

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    • Guys. Lets keep this thread on topic. . . please? We're talking about Korra, not the horrid abomination that was the Shyamalan Film.

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    • Honestly both series have their ups and downs, but ATLA wins in my book simply because it is more coherent. LOK's story lines are very short, straightforward, and formulaic. Yes, it has been getting better with each passing season but it still just lacks that core story that made ATLA so engaging. ATLA and LOK are, however, both very well designed. The art and animation is beautiful in both series, and Korra arguably has more interesting battles (The Season 1 fights were amazing, except for Zaheer I haven't really seen anything that can compare to an Equalist). 

      I still "prefer" ATLA because it had was much more organically written and had a greater breadth to it. The two shows are pretty much on even ground except when you try and read into the story. That continuity and complexity is what gives ATLA more credence, at least in my book.

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    • I like both ATLA and LoK. I've met very few that liked ATLA that would go so far as to say they dislike LoK. In fact, the other night at the bar with some friends of friends, somehow Avatar came up in discussion and randoms I didn't know talked about how much they liked both series. Out of about eight people that watched Avatar (some liked ATLA better, some LoK), only one did not like LoK. In forums on the internet, I don't even really see that many people that overtly dislike LoK overall. I think this is a much more isolated issue than OP makes it out to be.

      Note that I've been mislabeled as a LoK hater before because I've criticized aspects of LoK (and really, mostly just a couple of aspects of Book Two and that I would like more episodes...as if the latter is indicative of hating the show), but criticizing =/= disliking. I wonder how much of this perception of LoK haters is actually people that like it, but just have smaller complaints about certain aspects of the show.

      As for ATLA fanboys, well, it's not their fault that Aang was perfect. :P

      But seriously, bear in mind that because ATLA was longer -some of the problems with overly condensed story/plot or lower amounts of development that LoK may be viewed to have (which are frequently cited as the biggest problem with LoK), are either not present or as glaring. It also had the advantage of being first, whereas LoK will be viewed in the context of ATLA's sequel. But again, pretty much everyone I know that likes Avatar likes both series.

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    • RaidenRadio wrote:
      Guys. Lets keep this thread on topic. . . please? We're talking about Korra, not the horrid abomination that was the Shyamalan Film.

      For what it's worth, it was the movie that got me to watch the show. I could see through the horrible acting that at its core, there was a fantastic story, so I decided to watch the show and fell in love with it.

      Anyways, I think The Elementalists most recent post has some excellent points.

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    • I am basically withholding naming a preference until the end of Book 4.

      Guys. Lets keep this thread on topic. . . please? We're talking about Korra, not the horrid abomination that was the Shyamalan Film.

      But it's just so easy.

      For what it's worth, it was the movie that got me to watch the show. I could see through the horrible acting that at its core, there was a fantastic story, so I decided to watch the show and fell in love with it.

      That's beautiful, man.

      I, for one, think that it is one of the finest comedies ever made.

      I wonder how much of this perception of LoK haters is actually people that like it, but just have smaller complaints about certain aspects of the show.

      Probably not as much as you might think, unless you have a very loose definition of what constitutes a "small complaint."

      Then again, while a lot of people in the early days boasted of hating it, the numbers told a very different story. Ironically, the ratings plummeted along with the hate comments.

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    • Did that Korra-late (hahahahahahaha) with Nick not advertising well,  swapping time slots, or taking it off tv and putting it online only with little apparent warning? As a fan of the series, I missed a number of episodes for awhile due to all of those reasons.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote: Did that Korra-late (hahahahahahaha) with Nick not advertising well,  swapping time slots, or taking it off tv and putting it online only with little apparent warning? As a fan of the series, I missed a number of episodes for awhile due to all of those reasons.

      Yeah, there's a huge Korralation between when Nick started screwing around with the time slots & when viewership dropped off. I was taking statistics at the time, so I practiced by comparing the decline in viewership with various proposed explanations.

      Naturally, there were some people who clung to the explanation that it was because the show sucked, even though nothing in Book 2's plot seemed to be related to the ratings.

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    • Well, I do prefer ATLA but I enjoy LOK. LOK is far from a carbon copy of ATLA but things are less interesting when you have seen something similar.

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    • Incub7 wrote:
      JayAaerow wrote:
      Persoanlly, it seems rather rushed. I still ove it to bits. But yeah, moves too fast for me. Even character's skills move fast...and the last series it was ridiculous(Katara being a master waterbender by the end of season 1 was weird...but I so got over it). Now you have Zaheer mastering a element in weeks. 

      Other characters tend to be more interesting, too! I mean, seriously. Who here doesn't want to know how Amon got to where he was? We see s sad flashback from when he was like 4-17...then skip to him in his 40's. It feels incomplete. Then there's Unalaq and the fact we don't clearly know his motive. Free the spirits according to Toph. Why? We got that he was friendly but why was he so darn sinister? Vaatu? They also underutilize so many characters like Jinora. She wants to be a master(is currently)...but do we ever see much of her that says she should be one? 

      I think that Zaheer was able to master airbending because of his strong spiritual nature and his vast knowledge of air nomad culture. As for Unalaq, i think that he suffers from what i like to call "Scar Symdrome". I believe much like Scar, Unalaq was very jealous of his brother's heir to the throne, and just again like Scar, he took extreme measures to make sure he'd ascend the throne. But like Ozai, Unalaq wanted more power even if it meant sacrificing his humanity and destroying the world. Of course i wouldn't be surprised that Vaatu was able to amplify Unalaq's dark thoughts for his own advantage. Vaatu saw how powerful a mere human became after fusing with his counterpart, so he thought that if he fused with a human he would have absolute power. if Unavaatu wasn't purified, the Dark Avatar would be reincarnated again and again (if Vaatu was able to ), and everytime the world would be in grave danger when the incarnate reach their full potential. i mean can you imagine the raw destructive power of Dark Avatar State. Sure the Dark Avatar would only be able to bend only one element, but whose to say that a connection to the very embodiment of chaos wouldn't increase the destructive capability of their element immensely.

      I think it is silly to say that you can learn a way of fighting by learning its pleasantaries and history. If I go study Ronda Rousey's wikipedia page and then go stalk her for a year, I wouldn't be the one of the  world's greatest female MMA fighters (mostly because I am a dude). Part of Unvatu's immense power was because it was during HC. 

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    • Fireshadowz
      Fireshadowz removed this reply because:
      off topic
      23:35, November 14, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      For what it's worth, it was the movie that got me to watch the show. I could see through the horrible acting that at its core, there was a fantastic story, so I decided to watch the show and fell in love with it.

      Good for you. A bad publicity is better than no publicity at all. Icon_thumbup.gif

      Neo Bahamut wrote:

      You only "accept that it is a matter of taste" when we call out your spiel that we're irrational/alienating movie fans/basically ruining the franchise.

      Excellent. I'm glad we can all agree that it is a matter of taste. To each his own cup of Jasmine tea. Now, if the Nostalgia Critic and his whores kindly stop rubbing his self-entitled video rant on me and other movie fans, we'll be all set. Let's have a group hug...

      128px-Olaf_transparent.png

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    • You are putting words in Neos mouth Hasdi. I reiterate. Get over yourself Hasdi. Maybe if you'd take off the damn rose colored glasses and see the Shamhammer movie for the BS it is maybe you'd have less people thinking you're a troll.

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    • I love korra's Villains but loved Atla's benging, one drawback with Korra is the lacklustre bending, especially in later seasons

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    • Hate is a really strong word. I don't think anyone hates Korra. Two series are just different. They're like apples and oranges. 

      There is one apparent absence in Korra that Last Airbender doesn't have: Comic relief. Many characters in the ATLA were goofy. I know that many people liked that in particular. But that's fine. Korra is darker and written more for adult audience.    

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    • makes sense as most of the fandom would have aged between series and they were targetting those audiences who'd come back to the avatar universe through nostalgia, making it darker is just a consequence of a more mature audience

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    • Good for you. A bad publicity is better than no publicity at all. 

      I am legitimately thankful for it, as it prompted me to watch the animated series, which I otherwise would not have. I wouldn't say it was "bad publicity" I watched it in theaters and saw an awesome story that was just buried by bad acting. I could see there was something great about it, so I went to the source. I wouldn't watch a sequel now, unless they did some serious recasting, but the fact of the matter is, that shitty movie got me into the fandom.

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    • Bolindude wrote:
      makes sense as most of the fandom would have aged between series and they were targetting those audiences who'd come back to the avatar universe through nostalgia, making it darker is just a consequence of a more mature audience

      I'm not quite sure of that. Yeah, there's a ton of throwbacks to the old show (actually, there might be way way too many), but it constantly feels like LoK is just skimming at the surface than going any deeper. The show looks mature but has a certain sense of superficiality to some of its messages. Mostly the problem was how these messages were articulated.

      Of course, I'm leaving out book 4 until it's over. Yet's just hope they handle some of the topics they keep bringing up better than the other books, rather than just use thowaway expository dialogue or weak shots.

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    • I think season 3 sums up the series progression towards a more mature audience, and not only because it depicts the death of the Earth Queen in such graphic fashion. the whole idea behind chaos being the natural order is something which is very deep, and philosophically grand. It shows that the series is constantly evolving to fit a more mature style of storytelling. 

      I think the main flaw behind Korra is the bending, watching avatar the last airbender, and seeing the amazing feats of the benders of that era, you just expected more. The bending in the universe is integral to the story telling in my opinion, and Korra's lack-lustre bending detracts away from the amazing storylines esp. season 3 which i thought had a great and really deep story. 

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    • I consider Korra as a continuation of the last airbender not something to compete with it. Both are two of my favorite shows

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    • Thebridge14 wrote:
      I consider Korra as a continuation of the last airbender not something to compete with it. Both are two of my favorite shows

      This is the greatest thing I've read all day 

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    • I don't even know what to say about this movie argument anymore. A thread from over a year ago proves that Nostalgia Critic is a dick for saying that a bad movie was bad? Also, I guess I'm a prostitute. It makes no sense.

      Thebridge14 wrote: I consider Korra as a continuation of the last airbender not something to compete with it. Both are two of my favorite shows

      Well, so do I, I just constantly compare things. I think it's a memory strategy.

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    • Zuko0sHon0r wrote:

      Thebridge14 wrote:
      I consider Korra as a continuation of the last airbender not something to compete with it. Both are two of my favorite shows

      This is the greatest thing I've read all day 

      Thanks dude

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    • While I agree that it is a continuation in theory, comparisons will inevitably be drawn. Its not something which is decided upon its instictive when you have a show seperated by a time period, despite the temporal sequence. Certain things of Korra do not reflect the quality of the last airbender. If it were truly a continuation the impecable standard of atla should be engrained into the legend of Korra. Korra lacks in certain areas, which is why I don't believe it is a continuation in the truest sense of the word.

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    • You can't say that ATLA is different from ATLOK because while they star different personalities they are the same storyline by the same people. It's like your saying you likes Season one of ATLA better than season three of ATLA. They might be different people but they are just one storyline. Don't compare because it's basically just one series. And ATLOK answers a lot of missing questions.

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    • Not really, its a new age and the whole reincarnation thing is used to show how eventhough the avatar is the same, they embody different personalities. Your saying that since it revolves around the same concept that it shouldn't be compared, this is wrong. Aang himself asked once why the Avatar was not an all powerful spirit, its because each person has to grow into a unique avatar that is controlled by the disparate contexts of different eras. However my flaw with Korra is the bending, nothing more. I love the story lines. However you cannot conclude that they are the same because they focus on a universal aspect, contexts differ. The writers wouldn;t have made the world evolve if they wanted a continuation of Aang's adventures, instead they want a fresh new face, who has their own unique storyline. That is why comparisons can be drawn. Your point about comparing seasons undermines your point, because it reflects a single character, who progressive changes, with Korra we are given a new character. Also we can compare the 2 series because they are different. It's like saying one era of history can not be compared to another eventhough it draws on a previous era, we obviously compare them. thus we can compare the 2 series.

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    • One can say they are different, in terms of real world criteria, some new people are working on it, some changes in style and other things, it is a slightly different thing. Now, they are canonically connected and part of the same fictional universe. They also aren't the same series, one is Avatar: The Last Airbender and the other is Legend of Korra, it's similar to the franchise Gundam in this sense.

      In Gundam there are a few examples I'd like to mention, there is the Universal Century timeline (UC) and there are other timelines collectively known as Alternate Universes (AU). AU contains many different timelines, some of which are connected, others that are not. UC however is considered "the main" Gundam timeline and has the most series. The original series in UC was "Mobile Suit Gundam" (MSG) it later had a sequel entitled "Zeta Gundam" which was a few years after the events of the original. It had a mostly new cast with a few cameo appearances from the original series. Zeta is a continuation of MSG in the overarching story, but it is a new series and the same goes for series within that timeline, some of which are chronologically set 50 years later in the timeline and created 20 years after in our world, with many different people working on the project.

      LoK is distinct from ATLA, they are different series, but LoK is a continuation of ATLA's story and the franchise.

      On the topic of comparing the two, well, Books within ATLA (Water, Earth, and Fire) have been compared ("I hated Water, but Earth and Fire rocked, flameo!") and books within LoK have been compared ("Air was cool, Spirits sucked, Change was good, and the jury is still out on Balance."). In Gundam, MSG and Zeta have often been compared, some hated MSG but loved Zeta, some the other way around, some liked them both, some still hated both and prefer other UC or even AU series. One of the AU's was called 00 Gundam and it was split into two seasons with a time skip, the two seasons are often compared quite a bit considering they were released within a year of each other and fans have been somewhat divided on whether two is a faithful continuation or if it became too divergent, some applaud season 2 and think 1 predictable, others the opposite. Series and installments within franchises are frequently compared with themselves. And while I would say I enjoyed 00 Gundam season 1 better, I wouldn't say season 2 was not a true continuation and in UC Gundam, I would argue the continuations were often better than the original.

      In ATLA and LoK, I think I still need to see LoK finish before I make a final judgment, but regardless, LoK is clearly a connected to ATLA and continues the story and much of what made ATLA, ATLA.

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    • That's true. As a sequel, LoK is ultimately tied together with ATLA. 

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    • The themes also cycle even minor connections seem to pop up basically every time I watch korra I see a little nod to atla.

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    • People also tend to hate book 2 spirits for its slow start but towards the end it got much better

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    • I don't think the pacing was the biggest problem with Spirits (though alot of the uninspired exposition could have been a result of it). It was how they changed the lore. The introduction of Raava and Vaatu, the origins of bending and the Avatar, how spirits play into the world, etc. While it was kind of cool to see, it just doesn't really jive with the original theme. To me, it made the Avatar seem less important and more arbitrary.

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    • Did LoK have to live up with the original themes of ATLA in order to be effective? Yeah, I'd agree with many of the points about book 2 and most importantly with the backstory and its change in what balance meant. 

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    • It explained the lore better in my opinion made the avatar seem more human and relatable. The origins of bending made sense that it had to be granted from a lion turtle and then mastered by studying each elements respected animal. Raava basically provides background on how the avatar state works per say think about when katara healed aang she used spirit water that healed both aang and raava. Raava is basically the source of energy that drives the avatar state and she is a very aggressive spirit which made sense why aang couldn't control the avatar state for so long. The spirits were different in a sense but the aye aye and most of the spirits could easily fit in to atla. It also explained why there are so few spirits in the mortal world because the portals were closed durring aangs time

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    • It further explained things, but further explaination isn't always good or well handled.

      But, I'm glad you liked it.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      It further explained things, but further explaination isn't always good or well handled.

      But, I'm glad you liked it.

      I know alot of people would disagree with this but I thought it was better than book 1 air

      Heres my list of seasons from best to worst not counting book 4

      1.ATLA Book 3 Fire

      2. ATLA Book 2 Earth

      3. LOK Book 3 Change

      4. LOK Book 2 Spirits

      5. ATLA Book 1 Water

      6. LOK Book 1 Air

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    • Mine isn't that far off.

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    • Thebridge14 wrote:
      It explained the lore better in my opinion made the avatar seem more human and relatable. The origins of bending made sense that it had to be granted from a lion turtle and then mastered by studying each elements respected animal. Raava basically provides background on how the avatar state works per say think about when katara healed aang she used spirit water that healed both aang and raava. Raava is basically the source of energy that drives the avatar state and she is a very aggressive spirit which made sense why aang couldn't control the avatar state for so long. The spirits were different in a sense but the aye aye and most of the spirits could easily fit in to atla. It also explained why there are so few spirits in the mortal world because the portals were closed durring aangs time

      I got the opposite impression. The addition of Raava to the equation in a rather haphazard way only removed parts of the human element for me. 

      The major problem was the idea of balance. I've stated it before but when the writed changed their definition from the usual one, it just didn't seem to work out. Balance in the typical yin/yang fashion is the preferred point between two opposing force and the Raava/Vaatu storyline effectively changed balance to being an opposing force.

      Myth in storylines is great because it's unknown or mysterious. If you removed the origin story altogether, I think book 2 could have been stronger. Not counting the removal of other elements or filler.

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    • I meant that the avatar creation was a mistake by a human rather than something created by an all powerful being. I actually thought raava and vaatu represent balance quite nicely for example when wan locked vaatu up wan needed to fuse with raava and he literally had to imprison raava in his own body in order to lock vaatu up so technically they were both locked up The idea of balance still came into play because wan said despite his victory against vaatu he still influenced humanity. Your saying remove the origin story as in take wans whole plot line away arguably the best episodes in the entire franchise I guess to each his own

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    • I actually thought that they handled the vaatu/raava fairly well in relation to yin/yang. In yin/yang there are opposites just as vaatu is darkness and chaos and raava is light and order. However, these oppositions to each othe; you cannot have order if there was never chaos and vice versa. Another aspect of yin/yang is that they both change into each other. This is addressed a little in LoK, as raava will emerge from the tiny glimmer of light from vaatu every 10,000 years and vice versa. Yin/yang also need to be in harmony and an excess amount is dangerous. This is also somewhat in LoK; vaatu growing larger and stronger when he is seperated from raava. However, vaatu seems closer to the Zoroastrian deity Angra Mainyu, as vaatu is constantly trying to destroy raava's order just as angra mainyu does to his opposing god, Ahura Mazda.

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    • Beginnings was the best part of book 2, but I'm just not sure if the ideas present in them positively affected the series. I'm still seeing repercusions of it.

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      Beginnings was the best part of book 2, but I'm just not sure if the ideas present in them positively affected the series. I'm still seeing repercusions of it.

      I agree. I personally liked the representation of yin and yang forces as Raava and Vaatu, but I didn't like it that the Avatar represented one side of the chi (order). I thought the Avatar was all about balance between good and evil, but we got more of a Westernized good-vs-evil feel to the Avatar. If I were to rewrite Beginnings I would not have had Wan help Raava against Vaatu, but instead his role will be to end the war between light and dark.

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    • I'd agree with the emphasis on the westernized aspect of the conflicts. There was a certain sense of Raava being angelic and Vaatu being rather demonic. We also didn't get the idea that both sides are supposed to have positive and negative aspects to them. Instead we have a very muddled idea of what they represented through their dialogue.

      The basic yin and yang idea of balance would have lend itself to the rewrite as well. 

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    • Raava and Vaatu are suppose to be one entity that represents balance though it was when wan severed them it created a rift in the worlds balance . Raava had some negative qualities like judging humans as selfish and killing innocent animals when fighting vaatu

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    • Poet Laghima wrote:
      Kubernes wrote:
      Beginnings was the best part of book 2, but I'm just not sure if the ideas present in them positively affected the series. I'm still seeing repercusions of it.
      I agree. I personally liked the representation of yin and yang forces as Raava and Vaatu, but I didn't like it that the Avatar represented one side of the chi (order). I thought the Avatar was all about balance between good and evil, but we got more of a Westernized good-vs-evil feel to the Avatar. If I were to rewrite Beginnings I would not have had Wan help Raava against Vaatu, but instead his role will be to end the war between light and dark.

      Ah Westenized good vs evil, why do you always intempt of breaking the entire balance? I swear if Korra doesn't combine the powers of both Raava and Vaatu in order to stop Kuvira in the series finale, I don't know if I could ever trust anything licensed by Nickelodeon ever again! I mean you saw how they ruined the Rugrats in the 2000s when Kimi was introduced, and this was before Spongebob had the same medicine, and even before Avatar: The Last Airbender came out, and having Nickelodeon wish they have nothing to do with it, as they're now wanting their channel to be for little babies and kids instead of teens, eventhough they have Teenick! What happened to the good old days where both kids and adults could watch shows like a family. Now all that's gone because of Political Correctness. I'm beginning to see how they're portraying the important characters of Korra now. With Raava representing the babies and children of today, The Avatar Nickelodeon now, and Vaatu being US!!! Propaganding us to be locked away from the good stuff in which we once shared with the now seperated and alienated children on Nick and other pointless Kids channels in which were once considered good!.

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    • Looks like someone is confusing political correctness with westernized good versus evil.

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    • Ahem, people hated on LOK long before it was revealed that Korra was bisexual and if people turn against Korra just because of who she ended up with then they should re-evaluate their priorities

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    • No, it's more like they should stop being a bigoted fuck.

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    • Nostalgia is a file that removes the rough edges from the good old days.

      -Doug Larson

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    • As a person who does like Avatar: The Last Airbender better than Korra, (even though I believe both are epic), it's not even really because of nostalgia for me. I just think the original has better characters, that are more relatable and lovable, a better storyline because it's fleshed out longer, better traditional martial arts, and I really like the adventure aspect of Avatar, which LoK didn't really have. Yes, I loved LoK to death, I just loved ATLA even more.

      And honestly, I feel most people don't hate LoK, it's just everyone thinks people do, but if they do, so what? The Korra genre just isn't their thing. Is that a bad thing? Not really. We still have tons of fans of Legend of Korra and I'm satisfied with it. Legend of Korra is still a great show to most of us fans here using the Wiki. Plus, we can add on how Nickelodeon handled the show, they treated it like crap. Then, there still is nostalgia, though it didn't affect me, the dramatic change could've really scared fans away, even though I don't think that's right, because they should at least give a try, but like I said earlier, everyone has their own opinions that we shouldn't hate upon.

      So, in conclusion, I believe 1)Both shows are epic beyond comparison, however ATLA is better imo, 2)People hating Korra doesn't have to be such a bad thing, because everyone has their own likes and dislikes, and 3)Nickelodeon contributed to Korra hate because it handled the show very badly.

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    • Well, that's not really hard question. First of all everything is subjective and we have right to like and hate whatever we want. But still, BOTH series are epic.

      So, why do so many people hate LOK? I have my own opinion about that. First of all, as someone already mentioned, it's simply nostalgia. And also people just couldn't accept the fact that Aang, Sokka and other beloved characters are no longer alive and ( as Katara said that ) it's time for new generation to take on the responsibility of keeping peace and balance in the world. People usually can't accept changes.

      My second explanation is that people just have to be hateful towards something ( it's our nature, what can I say? ). Like shipping wars. It is tv show wars.  like wars between Star Trek: TOS and Star Trek: TNG fans, like wars between Game Of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire fans, and so on. 

      I grew up watching this ATLA. It was part of my childhood and it really is great and epic show. In all honesty, at the first time, I didn't know how to feel about new series ( and yes, I almost started hating it even before I saw it ). But eventually, it has become my favorite tv show and now I like it even more than ATLA. You can't deny that LOK is for more mature audience and it contains darker and realistic themes. There is violence, poverty, and unkindness as well as nobility, community, etc. Also personally I think that characters are more interesting and have developed a lot. Korra had lot of failures, she was broken, desperate but isn't this more realistic? Aang was brilliant character. He was wise and kind monk, chosen one, call him whatever you want, you can call him messiah if you want. And at the age of 12, he defeated Fire Lord! Yeah, but he hasn't developed as character and person. Aang in a very last episode is the same person he was in a very first episode ( that's my opinion ). But Korra has changed a lot. She started as ambitious, enthusiastic about being "chosen one", teenager girl who faced darkness of real world and politics. Amon took her bending away, Vaatu separated her and Raava and then cut her connection to her past lifetimes permanently, Zaheer tortured, poisoned, crippled her leaving her physically and mentally broken. Then Tenzin and the president were basically saying "you're no longer needed". But she didn't give up and continued fighting. Personally for me she is inspirational. She isn't perfect but her imperfection is what I like about her. Yes, she was 17 ( younger than Aang ) but she lived in different time. Do you think that teenagers of today have same mentality as teenagers in 18th century ( there were rapid changes within 70 years )? 

      And also villains in LOK aren't just "bad guys". They have their motivations, ideology and philosophy. They have actual reasons to leave behind the morals ( not just, I'm the Fire Lord, I want to burn whole Earth Kingdom to the ground! Mahahaha! ). Sometimes you even feel sorry for them. The only villains in ATLA that I was interested in were Sozin and Azula.

      In conclusion, I would say that ATLA and LOK are both great shows equally. And we can't compare them ( at least IMO ) because they're completely different. You may agree or disagree with me because it's subjective theme ( oh, and sorry for my horrible English ). 

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    • Skipper:

      Korra was older than Aang, was that a typo?

      That aside, I more-or-less agree. Even after the initial hype has died down, I still find myself generally preferring the sequel series. I haven't precisely identified why that is yet, or if that actually makes it better, but it is what it is.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Skipper:

      Korra was older than Aang, was that a typo?

      Yes, she was older. But again, that doesn't matter because they lived in different times. In medieval times, girls used to marry at the age of 13, Murad IV ascended to the throne at the age of 11, Tutankhamun was only 9 years old when he became pharaoh, Mary was only 6 years old when she became queen of Scots, Ptolemy XIII  came to power at the age of 12 ( I may be mistaken ). But those were different times. Now, people are considered kids until their early 20s. Well, at least most of modern day "princes" and "princesses" are not mature epough to rule kingdoms and empires. 

      Personally, I think, that it is important part of LOK. We must understand how hard it is to be Avatar in the modern world. People have president, they finally developed global political system, etc. Now Korra's position is symbolic. I think, if Aang was in Korra's shoes, he would be OK with it. He wanted to be normal while Korra wanted to be a hero. 

      Also, in edittion, I want to say that Aang was never traumatized mentally, spiritually. Maybe only when he found out that Gyatso was killed off. But Korra was tortured, manipulated and broken in every season. Still she never gave up ( for example, Amon did give up. He couldn't face failure ).

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    • The original series spent very little time analyzing Aang's traumatic experiences, they mostly just alluded to them here & there. Zuko's, Katara's, & Sokka's tragic backstories all got more attention than his.

      Partly the characters in Avatar are younger because of the whole "they had to mature quickly" thing, but a lot of it's honestly just "They'll do the things we need them to do for the sake of the plot, regardless of it being unrealistic for their age group."

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    • The storm the southern air temple the desert the serpants pass and the awakening were good ways of showing aangs trauma and anxieties . But aangs personality wasn't to harp on the negative he was ussauly trying to move forward. " could you imagine how much pain aang felt when he learned his entire culture was taken from him" But he never let it destroy his spirit he chose to find meaning in his suffering and eventually found peace" I think this described why aang didn't focus on his on the horrible things that happend to him that

      much .
      
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    • That's exactly the problem with the writing for Aang, it gives the unrealistic impression that people can just "not harp on the negative." There was 1 criticism of the ending of Book 4 that essentially said it was poorly written because it's unrealistic & callous for Korra & Asami to go off on a romantic vacation so soon after Asami died. But...that's what Aang did. Find out the Air Nomads are all dead, cry for a few minutes, go off to ride Elephant Koi & try to woo Katara.

      Obviously there's variation between people of what will trigger PTSD, not everyone who goes through a traumatic experience gets it, & it probably does help that he wasn't actually around to see them all get fried. Still, you'd expect that there would be more mourning after finding out not only your whole family, but your whole SOCIETY was murdered.

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    • From what I gather Aangs follows a budhist concept in finding meaning suffering. that's literally what Sid arthur did. It might not be the most relatable. That's not to say that somtimes aang was hiding from how he felt (the serpents pass ). I wasn't trying to compare aang to asami here. It's pretty clear that between the southern air temple and the storm aang was still feeling guilt and sadness but he was hiding from it

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    • Skipper8888 wrote:
      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Skipper:

      Korra was older than Aang, was that a typo?

      Yes, she was older. But again, that doesn't matter because they lived in different times. In medieval times, girls used to marry at the age of 13, Murad IV ascended to the throne at the age of 11, Tutankhamun was only 9 years old when he became pharaoh, Mary was only 6 years old when she became queen of Scots, Ptolemy XIII  came to power at the age of 12 ( I may be mistaken ). But those were different times. Now, people are considered kids until their early 20s. Well, at least most of modern day "princes" and "princesses" are not mature epough to rule kingdoms and empires. 

      To be fiar, the young rulers listed here weren't mature enough to rule either; Murad's mother ruled for him in his early years,as did Mary's. Tut had Ay and Horemheb at his side and Ptolemy co-ruled with his much older sister and then a regent

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    • Siddhartha. And the thing about the Buddhist ideal is that it's pretty much unattainable.

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    • Yes, of course they had regents, etc but there are more examples and that doesn't change the fact that people were more mature back then. You can't deny the fact that mentality and maturity level of people is different in every historic period.

      And again, Aang was monk. He meant to be wise and mature. He was brought up by teachers, not parents. And we must take a note of that if we want to talk about his maturity level and also if we want to understand why he didn't really suffer an emotional and psychic traumas. Of course he was devastated when he found out that his whole socety was murdered but his spirituality and ability to stay calm was his strength. But I'm not saying that he wasn't just a kid. Of course he was!  It is fascinating that he defeated the Fire Lord at the age of 12.

      But still, let's think about this: he barely was involved in political affairs. Most of the time Gaang just were wandering the world. Yes, in each season finale, he had to face real difficulties but that's all. While Korra always was in the middle of political struggles and major conflicts.

      This conversation may last forever because it's subjective.

      However, we can't deny that Korra had more reasons for being devastated. Most of LOK haters, think that it is her weakness and pointless for plot. I already explained why ( I think that ) it mustn't be considered as weakness. 

      I have read interesting review about connection between Korra and Amon ( and nah, you may relax. It's not shipping. Ew..). It's called "The Three Waterbenders" and I think that it conatains good explanation for finale or importance of Korra's devastation. But again, it's subjective and you may think that it's just some bullshit.  

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    • LOK was trash. The horrible love stories completely annighlated and buried any reedeming qualities in my opinion. Not to mention the fact in my opinion in the first 2 seasons Korra was an ulikable character to me. Which added to the love triangle made me give up the series for an extremely long time. The series had great comeback in season 3 when the series put the focus off love and more on friendship. The story flowed better, and the characters definitely shined more. The story was pretty badass. I hear alot of people cameback to the show because of 3. But then came four which was altogether a meh experience to me. Bolin and Varrick being the strongest enetertainment value in my opinion. Which once again pisses me off how they decided to end the show with Bolin getting a after thought cameo and that abonoxious love triangle getting the last say so.  Big woop Korrasami got together. Which is another cliche for female protagonist. Anyone with an inkling of taste would have wanted a team avatar ending. Overall LOK had interesting villains and the possibility of great stories. Instead it turned into a fan service gone wrong deal. Aang adventures didn't have the romance that dominanting . The series was more about adventure and great stories. Much simpler in story to Korra but all the more better because of that reason. Korra seemed like a failed attempt at being an anime. The only people I see defending the series most of the time are korrasami shippers to be honest.

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    • Yes, of course they had regents, etc but there are more examples and that doesn't change the fact that people were more mature back then. You can't deny the fact that mentality and maturity level of people is different in every historic period.

      I don't really think so. Child labor, for instance, used to be very common. But it's not that children were somehow more capable of adult labor than they are now, they just had to do it anyway.

      There are certain developmental milestones that are pretty much hard wired. For instance, you can show a child a crayon box, then show them that it's full of candles, & ask them what someone else would think is in the box, & it's very rare that they can correctly answer "crayons" until age 4. The frontal lobe just hasn't developed enough for that kind of abstract reasoning yet.

      Big woop Korrasami got together. Which is another cliche for female protagonist.

      I've yet to hear a single example of a protagonist in western children's animation, female or otherwise, outside of LGBT-specific entertainment, who enters into a same sex relationship. And even if you knock off a few of those qualifiers, it's still very rare.

      Korra seemed like a failed attempt at being an anime.

      That doesn't even make sense.

      The only people I see defending the series most of the time are korrasami shippers to be honest.

      Which you've conveniently written off as having "no inkling of taste." I love the smell of genetic fallacy in the morning. Or 3:30 in the afternoon, as the case may be.

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    • For the record, I'd just like to say that if it with wasn't for LOK, I would not have become a fan of the Avatar universe at all.

      I can understand why people like Aang over Korra, though: because they grew up with him. It's the same way a whole generation of children grew up reading Harry Potter or watching Luke Skywalker on the big screen. There's something magical about being young and armed with power of God while going up against an evil force that no one else can stop. I used to love it. But now that I'm older, the magic has lost its charm.

      Having spent a number of years working in a morgue and seeing children lying in body bags with their milky eyes fixed towards the ceiling, I've come to be disillusioned with the idea that kids can save the world. It's a romantic notion at best. It's sort of like the ten year old who claims he wants to take down ISIS– you know it isn't going to happen.

      Likewise, I came to LOK late, and the only reason I was willing to give it a chance was because the characters were older. Yes, teenagers aren't necessarilly more capable at saving the world than children are, but (for me) we now move into the realm of possibility where, with a lot guidance, it might be plausible. And there's something else I find interesting about the teenage years: it's a time in one's life, during the cusp of adulthood, that idealism clashes with reality. Plans are aborted, hearts are broken, and lives are torn apart. I relate to those struggles a lot more. And it probably accounts for the explosion of YA literature all over the globe. 

      To be sure, the pacing of ATLA series is better (read slower) and by default the character development is, too. But I like LOK more for its steampunk setting; the themes of totalitarianism, fascism, and anarchy woven (albeit simply) throughout the plot, and the risk it took by revealing Korra's sexual orientation.

      In short, both series have merits. And the nice thing about spinoffs like LOK is that it attracts outsiders like me, who might not otherwise have given the original source material a chance.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
       



       
      I've yet to hear a single example of a protagonist in western children's animation, female or otherwise, outside of LGBT-specific entertainment, who enters into a same sex relationship. And even if you knock off a few of those qualifiers, it's still very rare.


      What there is a massive amount of this trope being portayed in stories showcasing strong female leads in mainstream media being gay or bi. Shows with way more massive followings than LOK. Xena, Buffy, and numerous examples in western comics. Black widow also had such a relationship. All explored way better than LOK. Again with way way way more followers than LOK. Bryke sucks at creating relationships in depth that is point blank fact.The only ones celebrating the relationship is Korrasami shippers who just wanted a win for lgbt representation.Half the people say they don't care about the story only that it happened. Makorra was horrible and Korrasami is a joke. What makes it worse is he practically discarded the whole team final parting for the latter. 
      That doesn't even make sense.


      Only because you can't comprehend it. Seems like you have limited amount media exposure if you think what happened in LOK is groundbreaking or particularly interesting.
      Which you've conveniently written off as having "no inkling of taste." I love the smell of genetic fallacy in the morning. Or 3:30 in the afternoon, as the case may be.

      Whatever you say bro. You just want to the see the twighlight the animated series. A real ending was like the one in season 3 which had way better depth than that sham of ending with Korrasami. How can you justify Bolin the one who helped create the team being tossed as an afterthought for a ovverdone statement. Bi females is not breaking a trend something like Mako being with WU would be the trend breaker. Considering male same sex couples  are the ones under represented. But the series was so groundbreaking it didn't consider that lol.

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    • What there is a massive amount of this trope being portayed in stories showcasing strong female leads in mainstream media being gay or bi. Shows with way more massive followings than LOK. Xena, Buffy, and numerous examples in western comics.

      Buffy was never in a same sex relationship, she had a one-night stand with Satsu. Willow "became" a lesbian, but firstly she's not the protagonist, & secondly for 3 whole seasons she was much more strongly portrayed as heterosexual than Korra, & most of the anti-Korrasami arguments focus around it "coming out of nowhere."

      Xena does not have a canon relationship with a woman, it's all "subtext."

      Not to mention that not a single 1 of your examples relates to western children's animation. No shit if you look for ANY same sex relationship in media, you're bound to find a few. However, children's media is vastly different from a teen-focused series like Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I explicitly contextualized my argument, so you're blatantly straw-manning. And yes, Legend of Korra IS officially marketed at children, it's rated TV-Y7.

      So no, you're full of crap. You're padding your argument with examples that aren't actually what you claimed they are, much less refuting MY point.

      So let's try this again: Name a single female protagonist in mainstream western children's animation who has a same sex relationship.

      If you try to obfuscate with examples irrelevant to my question one more time, I will be forced to conclude that you're simply lying.

      Bryke sucks at creating relationships in depth that is point blank fact.

      Oh great, you're one of those people who makes blatant opinion statements, & tries to insist that they're facts.

      The only ones celebrating the relationship is Korrasami shippers who just wanted a win for lgbt representation.

      ...Yes, the only people who like the relationship, are the people who like the relationship. This is the most inane thing you've said yet.

      Half the people say they don't care about the story only that it happened.

      And 99% of statistics are made up on the spot.

      Only because you can't comprehend it.

      Yeah, okay, calling me stupid is by no means an attempt to distract from the fact that you can't explain what that even means.

      Whatever you say bro. You just want to the see the twighlight the animated series.

      And you rely on straw men & ad hominems to distract from the fact that your arguments are shallow, inaccurate, & often fail to differentiate between subjective & objective claims.

      Also, nice quote.

      Bi females is not breaking a trend something like Mako being with WU would be the trend breaker. Considering male same sex couples are the ones under represented.

      Yes, that would also be a trend breaker. Yet another trend breaker would be if Korra, Mako, & Asami all jointly decided to date. The discussion isn't about every hypothetical "trend breaker," it's about a specific one.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      .
      Buffy was never in a same sex relationship, she had a one-night stand with Satsu. Willow "became" a lesbian, but firstly she's not the protagonist, & secondly for 3 whole seasons she was much more strongly portrayed as heterosexual than Korra, & most of the anti-Korrasami arguments focus around it "coming out of nowhere."

      In an era when there was practically no representation of a lesbian willow was unique. Especially for a main character to be portrade as such. What does it matter if it's the protagonist or not a character heavily involved in the story was introduced in a same sex. Also what does it matter if it was a one night stand. It is leaps and bounds better representation than Korrasami. Which was mostly showcased as a friendship. Lol driving a car with you friend oh shit major head turner.

      Xena does not have a canon relationship with a woman, it's all "subtext."

      Not to mention that not a single 1 of your examples relates to western children's animation. No shit if you look for ANY same sex relationship in media, you're bound to find a few. However, children's media is vastly different from a teen-focused series like Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I explicitly contextualized my argument, so you're blatantly straw-manning. And yes, Legend of Korra IS officially marketed at children, it's rated TV-Y7.

      So no, you're full of crap. You're padding your argument with examples that aren't actually what you claimed they are, much less refuting MY point.




      You are full of shit Xena has plenty of onscreen  scenes ranging from kissing to other showings of affection in the show. She was a clear cut representation of being bi. Also again way better showing than Korrasami.


      Stopcrying bro. Way more people read western comics  and watch those shows more than watchedavatar. Billion dollar industry vs a show that had struggle views. Also fyi comics are aimed at young readers for the most part. Open sexuality is a normal subject. The point is mainstream media portrays this sexuality alot. I even named the black widow. You are clutching at the childrens show line simply because that is all you got. Which is retarded as fuck because childrens shows don't necessarily have to focus on such a subject. They need to cater to a general audience. Especially considering news flash the majority of the world is straight. So in comparison to who actually watches these shows bi representation is doing just fine.



       
      ...Yes, the only people who like the relationship, are the people who like the relationship. This is the most inane thing you've said yet.


      Yeah you sound like  a petulant child who is mad because someone doesn't like what they like at this point.
      And 99% of statistics are made up on the spot.


      Yeah that is why this subject has been nonstop discussion since the show ended. A massive amount people dislike the show. Don't be so butthurt because you do lol. Not the end of the world.
      Yeah, okay, calling me stupid is by no means an attempt to distract from the fact that you can't explain what that even means.


      I didn't call you stupid. I am just pointing out the fact the representation is a heavy overused representation in anime. Not my fault you can't connect this to other media. Western shows like avatar is goin extinct and get canceled nowadays. Anime actually has the bigger following when it comes to such animation.
      And you rely on straw men & ad hominems to distract from the fact that your arguments are shallow, inaccurate, & often fail to differentiate between subjective & objective claims.

      Also, nice quote.


      So your whole point is to call my arguement shallow. But yet everything I say is fact I have yet to lie about anything. There is stronger better representations of relations in animated and other mainstream works than LOK. Whether you disagree is your opinion. I can point blank tell by your disposition you don't want to have an open discussion about this but rather die hard just defend it.
      Yes, that would also be a trend breaker. Yet another trend breaker would be if Korra, Mako, & Asami all jointly decided to date. The discussion isn't about every hypothetical "trend breaker," it's about a specific one.


      Well my point is the love was not well done even for a kids show,and distracted from the more better parts of the series. Which is why Avatar was better in my opinion. If the series had more of flow like season 3 it would have been way better. Korra felt like a stronger protagonist and the other characters shined more.


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    • Oh lookie, instead of answering direct questions, you focus on trying to prove I'm "butthurt." When your whole argument can basically be summed up as "people who don't hate the shows I do are retarded!" Also, "why does it matter that Willow isn't a protagonist?" Because that's what you said, prior to all of your goal post shifting.

      Thanks for confirming that you are indeed a lying troll & should be ignored.

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    • Personally ATLA is my alltime faviorite show, that how ever doesnt mean i dont love LOK, i do, yes sometimes korra gets unfairly ripped apart but as of recent ive seen the nitpicking/ ripping going both ways. 

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Oh lookie, instead of answering direct questions, you focus on trying to prove I'm "butthurt." When your whole argument can basically be summed up as "people who don't hate the shows I do are retarded!" Also, "why does it matter that Willow isn't a protagonist?" Because that's what you said, prior to all of your goal post shifting.

      Thanks for confirming that you are indeed a lying troll & should be ignored.

      Nope you just proved who the troll was with this response. I have cited notable example and brought straight fact. The only thing you are doing now instead of engaging in actual discussion is trying to deflect and discredit what I say. Even in your previous post you were all breaking down having a civil conversation. Now you are outright acting like a stubborn child. All hallmark signs of a troll who doesn't like opinions that differ from their own. Deuces bro hope you grow up its just a cartoon. Also the last airbender is better deal with it lol.

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    • You have 6 edits to your name, all flame posts, most of them directed at me, & you're trying to insist that I, who have been here for years, am a troll.

      Good luck with that.

      Personally ATLA is my alltime faviorite show, that how ever doesnt mean i dont love LOK, i do, yes sometimes korra gets unfairly ripped apart but as of recent ive seen the nitpicking/ ripping going both ways.

      In my experience, there are 2 reasons for that:

      1. It's reducto ad absurdum. The idea is that if you take the person's argument & apply it to a situation where they won't agree with the conclusion, they'll realize it's absurd. It is rarely successful, because usually the rebuttal is "that's different."

      2. The more you practice this, the more you kind of start to see the holes in the original. Well, maybe Kataang WASN'T that interesting of a pairing. Maybe Aang DIDN'T develop much. Maybe things usually WERE resolved via Deus Ex Machina. Maybe Zuko WAS kind of a jerk even when we were supposed to be sympathizing with him. Maybe we just kind of ignored these things.

      I don't think it's a "bad show," but I DO think it shouldn't be put on this pedestal that says it can do no wrong.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      You have 6 edits to your name, all flame posts, most of them directed at me, & you're trying to insist that I, who have been here for years, am a troll.

      Good luck with that.


       

      Yeah all the edits were behind misspelled words. Which displays how petty you are if that concerns you. You are so high strung on defense of the series Ironic that you don't realize everyone of your posts are flaming yet attack mine. Hypocrisy at it's finest. All of your post are antagonistic for opposition of your opinion. Nothing but an arguement full of ad hominem.

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    • Admin Noticeboard.

      Go for it.

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    • Sounding salty now lol.

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    • I found Korra better, because it had 4 climaxes instead of just the 1 in the original series. The original of anything is usually seen as best though.

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    • ShironaKarius149 wrote: Seriously! I don't see the entire series being that all greater than how you may think of it being. I mean don't get me wrong! Avatar The Last Airbender 'IS' thrilling and the stories are good and deep, but I could think of 'A LOT' of shows that are far superior and enduring than it. Also, why all the hate over the sequel? Sure it doesn't have many of the ingredients that made Avatar The Last Airbender great, so what! It's it's 'OWN' story with it's 'OWN' rules and it's 'OWN' path! You could think of it being like Digimon, when they change seasons, it's different stories to each have it's own charm, as well as variety! Also, like those, Korra as a whole, could be boiled down to as an experimental series, a direction in which the creators long wanted to try out. If you don't like it, then it'll help them to learn from their mistakes when they create the next Avatar series. It's as simple as that! Though to my opinion, you should be thankful for what you've got as Legend of Korra now, otherwise you would've gotten something in which would be A LOT WORSE!!!

      Because in several cases, the original is always better than the sequel. That's the world we live in. Many have grown to love Aang over the years. As for Legend of Korra, it lost me after mid book 3. I mean, they have a new setting, but they lack imagination with what to do with it. They set foundations for plot elements I could imagine happening, but they never expand. To me, colossal failure.

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    • Torresp wrote:

      ShironaKarius149 wrote: Seriously! I don't see the entire series being that all greater than how you may think of it being. I mean don't get me wrong! Avatar The Last Airbender 'IS' thrilling and the stories are good and deep, but I could think of 'A LOT' of shows that are far superior and enduring than it. Also, why all the hate over the sequel? Sure it doesn't have many of the ingredients that made Avatar The Last Airbender great, so what! It's it's 'OWN' story with it's 'OWN' rules and it's 'OWN' path! You could think of it being like Digimon, when they change seasons, it's different stories to each have it's own charm, as well as variety! Also, like those, Korra as a whole, could be boiled down to as an experimental series, a direction in which the creators long wanted to try out. If you don't like it, then it'll help them to learn from their mistakes when they create the next Avatar series. It's as simple as that! Though to my opinion, you should be thankful for what you've got as Legend of Korra now, otherwise you would've gotten something in which would be A LOT WORSE!!!

      Because in several cases, the original is always better than the sequel. That's the world we live in. Many have grown to love Aang over the years. As for Legend of Korra, it lost me after mid book 3. I mean, they have a new setting, but they lack imagination with what to do with it. They set foundations for plot elements I could imagine happening, but they never expand. To me, colossal failure.

      It's better cause they have a summary at the end of every season of Korra. The first series took a while to conclude so it looks more drawn out than Korra. It's like each season is its own long episode. 

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    • Eo bablybut wrote:
      I found Korra better, because it had 4 climaxes instead of just the 1 in the original series. The original of anything is usually seen as best though.

      The assault on the NWT and the end of book 2 don't count as climaxes?

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      Eo bablybut wrote:
      I found Korra better, because it had 4 climaxes instead of just the 1 in the original series. The original of anything is usually seen as best though.
      The assault on the NWT and the end of book 2 don't count as climaxes?

      In Korra?

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    • Kubernes wrote:

      How many people hated having the past lives (Aang in particular) and their connection to the Avatar destroyed? 


      I thought it was a ballsy  move to make.  It  shows that  actions  and conflicts  have real,  lasting effects  that aren't undone by a reset button.   The series also shows that each Avatar IS  his or her own person.  That Kora  isn't Aang, any more than Aang was Ryku or Kyoshi.

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    • *Peeks in to see if this thread is still legitimately active.*

      I think crying "nostalgia" on anyone who prefers the original to the sequel is just as reductive and silly as claiming that anyone who prefers the sequel to the original is just distracted by the shiny.  Like it or not, there are entirely valid criticisms to be had of Legend of Korra that aren't relevant to the original.  (The short-arc format, for one.)

      Which certainly isn't to say that some of the complaints about LoK aren't spurious, or anything.  I mean, I've seen people effectively taking offense at the fact that Korra is no longer a naïve, sheltered teenager by Book 4.  (Apparently, even after three and a half years—during which she's been through some shit—she should still be rowdy, slightly clueless, and hung up on some guy she's not compatible with.  Otherwise, she's been weakened and derailed.)

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    • It isn't, some dude was necroposting with homophobic slurs, but got shut down & I didn't even get to see his rage.

      There probably are people who like the sequel just because it's newer, though I'd be willing to bet that's the less common reaction. "They Changed It, Now It Sucks" is a pretty well-documented phenomenon. Which is why I make that argument when people basically say that near verbatim.

      I'm not sure I see an issue with the short arc format. I used to hate that, but it was basically out of elitism. Several shows I've seen since then have made me wonder if there's anything really wrong with an arc-based approach.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      It isn't, some dude was necroposting with homophobic slurs, but got shut down & I didn't even get to see his rage.

      There probably are people who like the sequel just because it's newer, though I'd be willing to bet that's the less common reaction. "They Changed It, Now It Sucks" is a pretty well-documented phenomenon. Which is why I make that argument when people basically say that near verbatim.

      I'm not sure I see an issue with the short arc format. I used to hate that, but it was basically out of elitism. Several shows I've seen since then have made me wonder if there's anything really wrong with an arc-based approach.

      I saw at least some of the rabid incoherent anti-Korrasami railing, but the thread was reading as not posted since last year despite that apparently not being the case.

      The short-arc format just...well, it was mainly Book 1 that felt actively disjointed, but it seemed like it resulted in stories having to get tied up a lot more quickly than they merited.  In other words, the same problem that Kate Forsyth's "Rhiannon's Ride" trilogy had (if you haven't read that and want to, I'm not going to spoil it; suffice to say that there was some tying up of loose ends that seemed overly quick, unceremonious, and...well, too easily processed by the rest of the cast despite coming off like it was done for the sake of making the good guys' victory a slightly bitter one). 

      Plus, a lot of characters ending up being sadly inchoate.  Which was admittedly mostly an antagonist issue; but when an antagonist issue affects at least one of the arc villains (I'm looking pointedly at Unalaq) when the recurring theme of the arc villains is that their motives are supposed to make sense on some level other than For Teh Evulz?  That'd be dubious enough even if it were entirely an antagonist issue...and it's not.

      And unless one is using the word "elitism" to condemn having literally any standards or critiques at all, I don't see what that has to do with anything.  And, to be honest, I see "they changed it, now it sucks" used as a dismissal tactic against any criticism of a sequel or reboot more often than the genuine article.  (Note, also, that I didn't finish watching A:TLA all the way through until the hiatus between Book 1 and Book 2 of LoK; and that I can acknowledge that there are things that the sequel series did better.)

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    • The short-arc format just...well, it was mainly Book 1 that felt actively disjointed, but it seemed like it resulted in stories having to get tied up a lot more quickly than they merited. [...] Plus, a lot of characters ending up being sadly inchoate. Which was admittedly mostly an antagonist issue; but when an antagonist issue affects at least one of the arc villains (I'm looking pointedly at Unalaq) when the recurring theme of the arc villains is that their motives are supposed to make sense on some level other than For Teh Evulz? That'd be dubious enough even if it were entirely an antagonist issue...and it's not.

      Ah. That. Well, that is true, most shows that go for an arc-based format have seasons that are at least a bit longer. Though I do think it's worth noting that a lot of the characters in the original series (mostly antagonists) didn't get the most backstory either. Zhao & Combustion Man are basically just dicks, & we get a literal line of backstory on Long Feng, but it didn't really matter because it was done so well.

      So I don't know if it's necessarily the case that this stems from not having an overarching story &/or longer seasons. As for rushed plotlines, personally I can't think of many I'd label that in either series. The end of Endgame, obviously, but then Avatar has the equally absurd notion that whatever "spiritual enlightenment" is, it can be achieved in the space of 22 minutes in "The Guru."

      And unless one is using the word "elitism" to condemn having literally any standards or critiques at all, I don't see what that has to do with anything.

      I pretty much hated anything that was too much like anything I used to like before high school. In some ways, this was legitimate. Such as obviously I only liked Dragonball Z because it was flashy, it was a mess as far as the writing was concerned, with an author who outright admits that he forgot most of what he wrote. In other ways, it was embarrassingly stupid, such as thinking that Batman The Animated Series must've been crap because it didn't really have any overarching story.

      And, to be honest, I see "they changed it, now it sucks" used as a dismissal tactic against any criticism of a sequel or reboot more often than the genuine article.

      Well, back in the early days of Book 1 until I think sometime during Book 3, I remember being on the front lines of a bunch of threads where the titles could've pretty much been made in the form of "X is supposedly different now, so it sucks."

      The technology is more advanced, so that sucks. The bending styles are more pragmatic, so the bending is somehow weaker or not as good. Which, of course, sucks. Allegedly the Avatar State is somehow "different" &, you guessed it, not as good. Drove me friggin' batshit. Thank shit that's mostly died out.

      (Note, also, that I didn't finish watching A:TLA all the way through until the hiatus between Book 1 and Book 2 of LoK; and that I can acknowledge that there are things that the sequel series did better.)

      So, if it's not too broad of a question, what do you think are the strengths & weaknesses of each?

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    • Zhao, Sparky, and Long Feng were secondary antagonists; and the only one who struck me as more inchoate than Unalaq was Sparky, who wasn't so much a character as the equivalent of the gAang being two steps ahead of a wildfire.  (Dear dweeb on YouTube: at least P'Li had lines instead of just grunting and snarling in battle.)

      A:TLA had more time to go in-depth with characters (due to being a longer show with more overlap between story arcs) and was more exploratory in terms of the setting.  I'd argue that it managed the same level of seriousness despite being an overall lighter and cheerier show, which is something of a balancing act.  It could, however, be argued to be a bit too idealistic.

      LoK was...no two ways about it, far stronger in terms of visuals and music.  I also actually count going from steampunk to roaring-'20s urban-fantasy dieselpunk as a point in its favor.  And I appreciate that they made at least an attempt to gray up the morality...and, not to be petty or anything, but how few damns they gave about offending the bigots as much as they possibly could under a Y7 rating.  But I also think that Bryke had high concepts that they wrapped up in overly-simplistic ways (what they confirmed to be canonical marginalization of nonbenders—some self-loathing waterbender stirring the pot notwithstanding—in Book 1, and the tyranny/regicide mess in Book 3).

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    • (Dear dweeb on YouTube: at least P'Li had lines instead of just grunting and snarling in battle.)

      Yeah, fuck whoever that person is & whatever they said.

      I pretty much agree with those summaries, save that I had no real problem with Book 3's thing.

      Also, while I was reading through that message, I missed the 1st "y" in "tyranny," which made things very confusing.

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    • They pretty much said that P'Li had less personality than Sparky, which—seeing as Sparky had literally no lines—is kind of ridonkulous.  Except they were less polite about it than that. 

      And as I'm not the sort of person who tries to sneak peeks at strangers in public bathrooms, I wouldn't use that other word.

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    • Hard to have less personality than someone who has NO personality. P'li may not have had much of a personality, but Sparky-Sparky-Boom-Man had none whatsoever.

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    • I disagree, being a Silent Character doesn't make him devoid of personality. We know he was cunning, ruthless, proud, & professional, but willing to go against his contracts under the right circumstances.

      I'd say that P'li edges him out, though, because we at least get a bit of insight into her past & personal life.

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    • And one of the jabs that this person took at P'Li regarding Sparky being somehow a better character concerned P'Li not having many lines.  When Sparky, regardless of whether or not we argue that he had a personality, had literally no lines unless we count Uncle Iroh's second VA making the occasional combat noise.

      I suspect, based on a few details, that there was a double standard going on.  But I was mainly just blinking in disbelief at the sheer ridiculousness of it all.

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    • Truthfully, I didn't much like the finale of Legend of Korra in my oppinion. There are many reasons of why, and one of which is the plain obvious...

      Why Republic City again? We've already done that, twice! The last thing we want is another big battle in Republic City again. How I would play is this, have Kuvira conqure Republic City and have a completely united Earth Empire, and have Katara and her friends retreat to the Fire Nation. Then as they plan of retaking Repulic City, Kuvira, now fueled with so much power, execute the business of Empire building outside the Earth Empire, starting with a tit for tat on the Fire Nation itself, namely The Fire Nation invaded and conqured the Earth Kingdom, then we shall do the same to the Fire Nation and see how they like it. Then the final battle will take place there, and, if this would end up being the case or not, have Kuvira be force to retreat, and have the final battle in Republic City. It would at least show us what the Fire Nation would look like and how pogressive it has become after the events of Avatar the Last Airbender. And although the Fire Nation never wanted to take part in the war against the Fire Nation, so did America with WWII until Pearl Harbor. At least it would help the Fire Nation to redeem themselves from sixty years ago. 

      Nothing wrong with how Kuvira was defeated in the end, I personally felt that it was touching and understandable. It helps to explaine of why Kuvira is acting like Korra, and why she had been doing the opposite to what the Avatar was trying to maintain peace. When she was handed over, I was expecting more of a silent moment for Kuvira when she was taken away, not Soo sculding her like a bad little child. But then again, what would you expect for a show that is made for Nickelodeon.

      Another nitpic, Earth States. Seriously? Are they literally trying to push in more of the US agenders into the show now? But then who am I to judge for a show being made in the US.

      And lastly, I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, Korrasami. Nothing wrong with the pairing, and I've obviously knew this was going to happen a mile away. But the way of how they build their relationship and the finale up, I felt was very rushed. Which I can understand with the three year gap, the studio not being funded by Nickelodeon who rather prefer stupid moneymaking timewasters than a work of expensive art nowadays. All I see of this finale is nothing more than just a fanpander, to give the fans what they want before finally leaving nick for good and calling it a day.

      Just how I feel, everyone is entitled to their own oppinions. All I'm saying is that we could make a better finale than what they've rushed out because Nick doesn't care about good shows anymore, but instead cheap cashins.

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    • My opinion is basically that I disagree entirely with your opinion. I don't even like the finale, but those reasons don't strike me as very good complaints against it.

      If the plot was already "rushed," as you put it, it doesn't make any sense to try to shoehorn the Fire Nation in on top of that just because people want to see it. And there's really no place BUT Republic City for the final battle, since it concludes that arc about the conflict between the modern city & the Spirit Wilds. Plus, the only Fire Nation location that would make that much of an impact to see torn apart is MAYBE the capital, which again would mean more rushing to get there.

      I'm not even remotely upset by the fact that they have a couple of US "agendas," as you put it, compared to all of the crap about "rightful kings" & whatnot.

      I'm not going to beat on the vaguely horse-shaped stain on the floor that is the subject of arguments over Korrasami.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I'm not even remotely upset by the fact that they have a couple of US "agendas," as you put it, compared to all of the crap about "rightful kings" & whatnot.

      And if we're gonna talk about "U.S. agendas," we should probably mention how Kuvira went all "no way of determining their loyalty" on immigrants/citizens of foreign descent.  (Also, I don't recall "Earth States" being a name that was ever actually used in canon.)

      I'm not going to beat on the vaguely horse-shaped stain on the floor that is the subject of arguments over Korrasami.

      Yeah...that's probably for the best.

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    • And if we're gonna talk about "U.S. agendas," we should probably mention how Kuvira went all "no way of determining their loyalty" on immigrants/citizens of foreign descent.

      That's something that the US is good at, yeah.

      Yeah...that's probably for the best.

      Took every ounce of my self-control not to say, "They're here, they're queer, & you gotta deal with it!"

      Whoops. There went every ounce of my self-control.

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    • Unfair treatment of foreigners and immigrants is something every country is good at. Simply saying it is just the US is just displaying an abundant ignorance of human history.

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    • Okay, first, it's a quip, it's supposed to be an amusing one-liner, not a comprehensive course on human history. Second, it doesn't even say what you're bitching about.

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    • Nostalgia + Pop Cultural Sexism + Fear of Change + Nerd Rage = WE HATE LEGEND OF KORRA!

      Now, this isn't to say that some people don't have legimate complaints about LOK; while I enjoy both series, watching Korra's multitude of failures in the early episodes can make me pine for the light-hearted and escapist elements Aang and his easy early victories brought to the table.  That said, I think that plenty of ATLA fans dislike LOK for the silly reasons above.  I remember back in the day, when LOK was still in development, people were already griping about the writers replacing Aang with a girl.  Let me repeat that: people were complaing about the show, before the show even existed.

      Personally, I am relieved that ATLA has come to an end and that they writers are moving on with a new cast of characters.  I can think of far too many shows (Inuyasha, One Piece, DBZ, Roughly Half of All Shonen) that go on and on and untill they run out of ideas instead of drawing their story to a tasteful close. 

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    • Only half of shonen? You are very generous.

      I do recall a lot of people complaining about the show before it even aired. From what I recall, it was mostly "bah, technology!" & maybe some angst about how it wouldn't be a continuation of the old cast.

      Also, if it seems like I harp on low hanging fruit, that's mostly because when someone dislikes the show for reasons that aren't stupid, there's often not much to say other than "oh, that's disappointing."

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Only half of shonen? You are very generous.

      Eh, probably so.  Honestly, it feels like almost ninety percent of Shonen, but I've recently discovered a couple of shows I don't entirely hate, so I'm trying to lower my biases towards the genre, lol.

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    • Some people just aren't open to the Avatar sequel being more intense or mature as the original series.

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    • InkSpider wrote:

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Only half of shonen? You are very generous.

      Eh, probably so.  Honestly, it feels like almost ninety percent of Shonen, but I've recently discovered a couple of shows I don't entirely hate, so I'm trying to lower my biases towards the genre, lol.

      I don't actually have an issue with Shonen series, they're just damn easy to make fun of.

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    • The main reason that people like ATLA more than Korra is because ATLA is more nostalgiac, and the problems with Korra are a lot more obvious. Season 2 is the worst season that the 2 series' have produced, and Season 1 would be in the same boat if it wasn't for Amon. Korra has fallen into many cliche pitfalls, and there wasn't much excuse past the first season. There was just a lot of character changing in the second season as opposed to the first. 

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    • What would you have done to make LoK different, AvatarAero?

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    • Aggression25 wrote:
      What would you have done to make LoK different, AvatarAero?

      1. Korra comes off as really bratty and idiotic. She's a heavy subscriber to the "Punch first, ask questions later" philosophy, but that doesn't really change over the entire series. Don't get me wrong, Season 3 and 4 were absolutely fantastic, but even after her pain from fighting Zaheer, she still acts stupid against Kuvira, showing that even though she went through 3 years of hardship, her thinking didn't change much. So I would have showed real change in Season 3 and 4, showing a more reserved Korra who thinks before she fights. Hell, even if she acted nicer towards people whose opinion differed from hers, I would be okay. 

      2. Everything that Korra wants comes easily to her. 

      "Lost your bending? Here, let's give you airbending out of nowhere!"

      "Can't bend anymore? Here, let me activate your Avatar State and give you back your bending, cause I can do that now!"

      "Do you need to know about Raava? Screw going on a trip and exploring the Spirit World, let me just explain everything in one big exposition dump!" (Admittedly, the Wan episodes were the best part of Season 2, but it is a huge exposition dump)

      Except for her recovery from the poison (Another example of great writing from Season 3 and 4), everything Korra wants comes easily to her. She doesn't have to work to find out how she needs to do anything, the only hard parts of her journey are doing the things she needs to do. Aang had to find out how to do something, do it, and then deal with the repercussions. Korra only has to do something, and then disappear for a few months. 

      After the Season 1 finale (the writers knew they needed a second season, so they copped out on the bending part) I would have forced Korra to go on a journey for half of the season, and only show her journey, with a bunch of references to the first show (Omashu, Kyoshi Island, more swamp action). Then, at the mid - season finale, when she gets back, she finds Republic City in ruins, and a bunch of her friends and family members hiding elsewhere. Then they reveal the problems that have happened in Republic City since they find out that the Avatar is gone. That would be much more appealing, for her to have to journey to get her bending back. 

      3. Stop with the romance. I get it. It's a more adult show than ATLA. You have to include some important parts of life if you want to scale the age up. But come on, Bryke! You didn't have to resort to the infamous "love triangle"! The only use for Mako and Asami in the first two seasons is to cause problems for Korra in everything she does, which gets infuriating when they do nothing else for half the series. Asami really steps up in Season 3 as a friend to Korra, making her worth it, but Mako just remains in the shadows for most of Season 2, and doesn't do much in Season 3. 

      If they had just never had the love triangle, it would have worked. There are a lot better ways to handle this. For example, have Mako choose Asami, and never have to worry about Korra. Or have Mako go with Korra, and then still think of Asami as a friend. There were so many problems in the first and second season, all because of dating, breaking up, kissing and more dating. At least Asami had the sense (sometimes) to focus on the bigger picture, but then she became petty at random points and just discussed love while there was an attack imminent. 

      4. The character shifts are enormous. The biggest and most obvious one that I can see is that Lin becomes less and less of a good cop than a counterbalance and cliched "bad cop" to Mako's intelligence. She spent all of Season 2 doing nothing but stopping Mako. The point where she is infuriated by Mako "barging in" on her meeting with Raiko killed me. This was the same guy who saved her ass when she was trapped in Sato's workshop. He helped save Republic City from Amon. The least she could have done was show some respect and say, "Well, even though you're a rookie, you are on Team Avatar, and without you, I wouldn't be able to bend, so sure, let's hear what you have to say." Lin is smarter than this. 

      Unalaq, as a villain, changes over the course of Season 2. First, he is this uber - spiritual guide, and then he tries to brute force the Northern Spiritual Portal into opening. Kind of a switch. Unalaq flip - flops on his decisions all the time. He told Korra that he could open the spirit portal, which he then told his children was a lie. When they reported that they couldn't capture the Avatar, which would have thrown a wrench into the works, he just went, "Oh well, we didn't need her anyway", which makes for a really wierd show to watch. 

      Keeping all the characters consistent is a real problem for the characters of Season 2, and while they do come back to their old selves, it's really weird watching them. Especially Bolin. Wow...

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    • It's a lot easier to skim over the faults of a show when strong emotions like nostaliga are invovled. People are very quick to tear LoK to pieces for every little fault compared to ATLA. I won't say that LoK doesn't have its problems (because it very much does) but there are those people who are against it solely because they feel like like the LoK took over ATLA. 

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    • DarkNet1 wrote: It's a lot easier to skim over the faults of a show when strong emotions like nostaliga are invovled. People are very quick to tear LoK to pieces for every little fault compared to ATLA. I won't say that LoK doesn't have it's problems (because it very much does) but there are those people who are against solely because they feel like like the LoK took over ATLA. 

      Yeah, this is exactly what I think when I read over most complaint posts.

      1. The statement that her first solution never stops being fighting is objectively false. In Book 4 she tries to negotiate with Kuvira, in Book 3 she considers all of the options of the Red Lotus hostage scheme & forms a plan, & even in Book 2 she tries to keep peace between the Water Tribes before Unalaq is revealed as a scheming traitor which makes the whole thing moot. I dare say that if she "comes across as bratty and idiotic," that's not the fault of the writing.

      2. So the 3 examples of things "coming easy to" Korra are cherry picked from Book 2 & the end of Book 1, & the statement that Aang always had to work for everything is just wrong. A point was made about how learning the elements came easy to him, in fact it was even easier for him to learn earthbending than it was for Korra to use airbending, which is often used as an argument against Korra. Gaining control of the Avatar State by being found by some guru & later hitting a rock also doesn't take much effort. Also, picking on Korra's learning airbending is just wrong, I have no idea why people are so quick to forget that she's been practicing techniques for training airbending the entire season & that her greatest block was psychological.

      3. I'll give you this one.

      4. That's a little unrealistic. Mako had no real evidence & him being on "Team Avatar" doesn't entitle him to special privileges. That was a character trait of hers since the very beginning.

      I'm also not seeing any "switch" with Unalaq. Being spiritual & resorting to force are not mutually exclusive. It's also pretty obvious, especially since he ultimately fails to open the Spirit Portal, that his statement that he didn't need Korra was just him desperately grasping at straws.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      DarkNet1 wrote: It's a lot easier to skim over the faults of a show when strong emotions like nostaliga are invovled. People are very quick to tear LoK to pieces for every little fault compared to ATLA. I won't say that LoK doesn't have it's problems (because it very much does) but there are those people who are against solely because they feel like like the LoK took over ATLA. 

      Yeah, this is exactly what I think when I read over most complaint posts.

      1. The statement that her first solution never stops being fighting is objectively false. In Book 4 she tries to negotiate with Kuvira, in Book 3 she considers all of the options of the Red Lotus hostage scheme & forms a plan, & even in Book 2 she tries to keep peace between the Water Tribes before Unalaq is revealed as a scheming traitor which makes the whole thing moot. I dare say that if she "comes across as bratty and idiotic," that's not the fault of the writing.

      2. So the 3 examples of things "coming easy to" Korra are cherry picked from Book 2 & the end of Book 1, & the statement that Aang always had to work for everything is just wrong. A point was made about how learning the elements came easy to him, in fact it was even easier for him to learn earthbending than it was for Korra to use airbending, which is often used as an argument against Korra. Gaining control of the Avatar State by being found by some guru & later hitting a rock also doesn't take much effort. Also, picking on Korra's learning airbending is just wrong, I have no idea why people are so quick to forget that she's been practicing techniques for training airbending the entire season & that her greatest block was psychological.

      3. I'll give you this one.

      4. That's a little unrealistic. Mako had no real evidence & him being on "Team Avatar" doesn't entitle him to special privileges. That was a character trait of hers since the very beginning.

      I'm also not seeing any "switch" with Unalaq. Being spiritual & resorting to force are not mutually exclusive. It's also pretty obvious, especially since he ultimately fails to open the Spirit Portal, that his statement that he didn't need Korra was just him desperately grasping at straws.

      To be honest, I can see a lot of your points. I think ATLA is really great, and that it has big flaws (like Deus Ex Machina a bunch, even starting the show off on a Deus Ex Machina point) but I think Korra's flaws a lot more glaring and interfere with the plotline and understanding. I'm a bit of an unreasonable and excessively hard film critic, so it stands to reason that I expected too much out of the sequel. 

      On a positive note, I really thought Korra was great. Season 3 and 4 were a big throwback to ATLA, and they really lifted the series. Korra's transformation is really showing how she changed as a result of Zaheer's influence, and her meeting Toph is pretty much how I imagined. Season 1 wasn't too bad either, Amon really stepped up and carried the show. He was arguably the most dangerous villain Korra had to face. In fact, if it wasn't for Tarrlok, Amon would have won. 

      Season 2 was probably the worst season, but easily two of the best episodes in the entire series were the Wan episodes. Those really stuck out because of the writing difference, exposition crafted well (Shyamalan take notes you filthy - ) and a lot of connections to the original show and Season 1 of Korra (anyone notice the Dance of the Dragons when Wan is learning firebending?). 

      To end it off, I was way too harsh on the series, but I expected more than I got. In the end, Korra is an enjoyable show to watch, and there was only a bit more Deus Ex Machina (which is annoying). All in all, I would watch, and I acknowledge ATLA had a lot of problems too. It's just..it's such a good show, dammit!

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    • I don't think we're that far apart in that assessment. I don't think Book 2 was AS bad as a lot of people make it out to be--aside from Beginnings, I think the Civil War, the Sting, & Night of a Thousand Stars were strong subplots--but it was still the weakest Book & a strong contender for weakest Book of both series. Most of the time, I can say that the criticism of Legend of Korra often picks it apart for things that are given a pass in Avatar, but in the case of Book 2, that doesn't really apply.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I don't think we're that far apart in that assessment. I don't think Book 2 was AS bad as a lot of people make it out to be--aside from Beginnings, I think the Civil War, the Sting, & Night of a Thousand Stars were strong subplots--but it was still the weakest Book & a strong contender for weakest Book of both series. Most of the time, I can say that the criticism of Legend of Korra often picks it apart for things that are given a pass in Avatar, but in the case of Book 2, that doesn't really apply.

      I agree with you there. I can't really detect a legitimate Season in Avatar that was weak for any reason: Season 1 solidified a lot of the character relations and introduced some characters, Season 2 focused on finding a earthbender and Ba Sing Se and Season 3 was really strong in introducing Zuko to the team as well as getting more information about the Fire Nation, reinforcing the belief that not all Fire Nation was inherently bad. 

      Season 1 could have been improved by not having the plot move so slowly. When you're watching it, there isn't much visible action between getting from the South Pole to the North Pole. The subplots are pretty strong, and relevant later, but having important characters - like Bumi, Suki and Jet - pop up later in the Season would make for a more interesting journey. However, the character development is really strong during this time, and even extends to Zuko once we get to the Storm. 

      The only major complaint I have with Season 2 is that they completely regress on the idea of Ba Sing Se being a good place to be, because their leader doesn't acknowledge the existence of the war that is knocking on their doors. If they had a less ignorant leader (maybe one that knew about the war, but left the details to Long Feng), then some questions would be set to rest. The major problem I had with Long Feng's plan was that he didn't seem to realize that even if Ba Sing Se could distract the Fire Nation, eventually, when the entire world was under the Fire Nation's control, they would eventually come knocking on Ba Sing Se's wall. Speaking of which, Trump should take a good long look at what Ba Sing Se did with their wall. 

      The only major complaint I had with Season 3 - which ties in with the problem with Season 1 - was that the first half wasn't as much of a buildup to the invasion as hoped. What I think would have done better is have Zuko defect early on into the season, allowing the team to get some more time to build character relations and also wouldn't change much of the later stages - Zuko could still go and talk to his father about him remaining with the Avatar. I mean, Ozai wouldn't know about Zuko's defection since he was an exile/refugee, anyway. 

      All in all, a strong series. None of the biggest flaws in the series were much in front of Season 2, but still, Season 2 remained strong with some really good subplots. The South Pole/Spirit World subplot was a lot stronger than the one in Republic City (especially Bolin, Bolin did nothing that whole season), but it remains a good season. Compared with the excellence of the other seasons in LoK and ATLA, it doesn't do well, but Season 2 of Korra is a fantastic season by any cartoon standards. It just doesn't do well when compared to a masterpiece that is the Avatar franchise. End rant. 

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    • AvatarAero wrote:

      Aggression25 wrote:
      What would you have done to make LoK different, AvatarAero?

      1. Korra comes off as really bratty and idiotic. She's a heavy subscriber to the "Punch first, ask questions later" philosophy, but that doesn't really change over the entire series. Don't get me wrong, Season 3 and 4 were absolutely fantastic, but even after her pain from fighting Zaheer, she still acts stupid against Kuvira, showing that even though she went through 3 years of hardship, her thinking didn't change much. So I would have showed real change in Season 3 and 4, showing a more reserved Korra who thinks before she fights. Hell, even if she acted nicer towards people whose opinion differed from hers, I would be okay. 

      2. Everything that Korra wants comes easily to her. 

      "Lost your bending? Here, let's give you airbending out of nowhere!"

      "Can't bend anymore? Here, let me activate your Avatar State and give you back your bending, cause I can do that now!"

      "Do you need to know about Raava? Screw going on a trip and exploring the Spirit World, let me just explain everything in one big exposition dump!" (Admittedly, the Wan episodes were the best part of Season 2, but it is a huge exposition dump)

      Except for her recovery from the poison (Another example of great writing from Season 3 and 4), everything Korra wants comes easily to her. She doesn't have to work to find out how she needs to do anything, the only hard parts of her journey are doing the things she needs to do. Aang had to find out how to do something, do it, and then deal with the repercussions. Korra only has to do something, and then disappear for a few months. 

      After the Season 1 finale (the writers knew they needed a second season, so they copped out on the bending part) I would have forced Korra to go on a journey for half of the season, and only show her journey, with a bunch of references to the first show (Omashu, Kyoshi Island, more swamp action). Then, at the mid - season finale, when she gets back, she finds Republic City in ruins, and a bunch of her friends and family members hiding elsewhere. Then they reveal the problems that have happened in Republic City since they find out that the Avatar is gone. That would be much more appealing, for her to have to journey to get her bending back. 

      3. Stop with the romance. I get it. It's a more adult show than ATLA. You have to include some important parts of life if you want to scale the age up. But come on, Bryke! You didn't have to resort to the infamous "love triangle"! The only use for Mako and Asami in the first two seasons is to cause problems for Korra in everything she does, which gets infuriating when they do nothing else for half the series. Asami really steps up in Season 3 as a friend to Korra, making her worth it, but Mako just remains in the shadows for most of Season 2, and doesn't do much in Season 3. 

      If they had just never had the love triangle, it would have worked. There are a lot better ways to handle this. For example, have Mako choose Asami, and never have to worry about Korra. Or have Mako go with Korra, and then still think of Asami as a friend. There were so many problems in the first and second season, all because of dating, breaking up, kissing and more dating. At least Asami had the sense (sometimes) to focus on the bigger picture, but then she became petty at random points and just discussed love while there was an attack imminent. 

      4. The character shifts are enormous. The biggest and most obvious one that I can see is that Lin becomes less and less of a good cop than a counterbalance and cliched "bad cop" to Mako's intelligence. She spent all of Season 2 doing nothing but stopping Mako. The point where she is infuriated by Mako "barging in" on her meeting with Raiko killed me. This was the same guy who saved her ass when she was trapped in Sato's workshop. He helped save Republic City from Amon. The least she could have done was show some respect and say, "Well, even though you're a rookie, you are on Team Avatar, and without you, I wouldn't be able to bend, so sure, let's hear what you have to say." Lin is smarter than this. 

      Unalaq, as a villain, changes over the course of Season 2. First, he is this uber - spiritual guide, and then he tries to brute force the Northern Spiritual Portal into opening. Kind of a switch. Unalaq flip - flops on his decisions all the time. He told Korra that he could open the spirit portal, which he then told his children was a lie. When they reported that they couldn't capture the Avatar, which would have thrown a wrench into the works, he just went, "Oh well, we didn't need her anyway", which makes for a really wierd show to watch. 

      Keeping all the characters consistent is a real problem for the characters of Season 2, and while they do come back to their old selves, it's really weird watching them. Especially Bolin. Wow...

      Okay, but what about the loss of the past lives? Would you have done anything about that awful point in Book 2?

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    • Aggression25 wrote:

      AvatarAero wrote:

      Aggression25 wrote:
      What would you have done to make LoK different, AvatarAero?
      1. Korra comes off as really bratty and idiotic. She's a heavy subscriber to the "Punch first, ask questions later" philosophy, but that doesn't really change over the entire series. Don't get me wrong, Season 3 and 4 were absolutely fantastic, but even after her pain from fighting Zaheer, she still acts stupid against Kuvira, showing that even though she went through 3 years of hardship, her thinking didn't change much. So I would have showed real change in Season 3 and 4, showing a more reserved Korra who thinks before she fights. Hell, even if she acted nicer towards people whose opinion differed from hers, I would be okay. 

      2. Everything that Korra wants comes easily to her. 

      "Lost your bending? Here, let's give you airbending out of nowhere!"

      "Can't bend anymore? Here, let me activate your Avatar State and give you back your bending, cause I can do that now!"

      "Do you need to know about Raava? Screw going on a trip and exploring the Spirit World, let me just explain everything in one big exposition dump!" (Admittedly, the Wan episodes were the best part of Season 2, but it is a huge exposition dump)

      Except for her recovery from the poison (Another example of great writing from Season 3 and 4), everything Korra wants comes easily to her. She doesn't have to work to find out how she needs to do anything, the only hard parts of her journey are doing the things she needs to do. Aang had to find out how to do something, do it, and then deal with the repercussions. Korra only has to do something, and then disappear for a few months. 

      After the Season 1 finale (the writers knew they needed a second season, so they copped out on the bending part) I would have forced Korra to go on a journey for half of the season, and only show her journey, with a bunch of references to the first show (Omashu, Kyoshi Island, more swamp action). Then, at the mid - season finale, when she gets back, she finds Republic City in ruins, and a bunch of her friends and family members hiding elsewhere. Then they reveal the problems that have happened in Republic City since they find out that the Avatar is gone. That would be much more appealing, for her to have to journey to get her bending back. 

      3. Stop with the romance. I get it. It's a more adult show than ATLA. You have to include some important parts of life if you want to scale the age up. But come on, Bryke! You didn't have to resort to the infamous "love triangle"! The only use for Mako and Asami in the first two seasons is to cause problems for Korra in everything she does, which gets infuriating when they do nothing else for half the series. Asami really steps up in Season 3 as a friend to Korra, making her worth it, but Mako just remains in the shadows for most of Season 2, and doesn't do much in Season 3. 

      If they had just never had the love triangle, it would have worked. There are a lot better ways to handle this. For example, have Mako choose Asami, and never have to worry about Korra. Or have Mako go with Korra, and then still think of Asami as a friend. There were so many problems in the first and second season, all because of dating, breaking up, kissing and more dating. At least Asami had the sense (sometimes) to focus on the bigger picture, but then she became petty at random points and just discussed love while there was an attack imminent. 

      4. The character shifts are enormous. The biggest and most obvious one that I can see is that Lin becomes less and less of a good cop than a counterbalance and cliched "bad cop" to Mako's intelligence. She spent all of Season 2 doing nothing but stopping Mako. The point where she is infuriated by Mako "barging in" on her meeting with Raiko killed me. This was the same guy who saved her ass when she was trapped in Sato's workshop. He helped save Republic City from Amon. The least she could have done was show some respect and say, "Well, even though you're a rookie, you are on Team Avatar, and without you, I wouldn't be able to bend, so sure, let's hear what you have to say." Lin is smarter than this. 

      Unalaq, as a villain, changes over the course of Season 2. First, he is this uber - spiritual guide, and then he tries to brute force the Northern Spiritual Portal into opening. Kind of a switch. Unalaq flip - flops on his decisions all the time. He told Korra that he could open the spirit portal, which he then told his children was a lie. When they reported that they couldn't capture the Avatar, which would have thrown a wrench into the works, he just went, "Oh well, we didn't need her anyway", which makes for a really wierd show to watch. 

      Keeping all the characters consistent is a real problem for the characters of Season 2, and while they do come back to their old selves, it's really weird watching them. Especially Bolin. Wow...

      Okay, but what about the loss of the past lives? Would you have done anything about that awful point in Book 2?

      A trip to the spirit world. She could spend maybe a whole episode learning about her past lives, and reconnect with them. Or maybe, she just needs to reconnect with the important ones, so that their knowledge will flow into her. If she hit a roadblock against Kuvira, and needed some additional strength or some knowledge, then that would have been a good thing to do. 

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    • I have an idea: Instead of Deus Ex Machinaing them back, maybe permanent consequences exist & the story has actual stakes?

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I have an idea: Instead of Deus Ex Machinaing them back, maybe permanent consequences exist & the story has actual stakes?

      That sounds like a good idea, but I can't think of reasonable consequence that would make it hard for Korra to rely on. Because, if I were a sentient and thinking villain in Avatar, I would make it my goal to craft a plan that could only be defeated if Korra had the ability she no longer has. And I think at least 2 of the villains are smart enough to make a plan like that.

      There isn't much we could take away. We could kill off a main character, or even a secondary character, but that would be a bit dark for a kids show. We can't have Korra lose her bending, because that's an integral part of the story. 

      A long journey that she has to take to get it back would make a lot more sense than removing something forever. Especially if we add in the high stakes of "if you fail, you won't get your bending back", then have her actually fail, and only get her bending back by achieving some level of spiritual connections (like actually fighting for the spirits). 

      I don't know. I'm not a good writer, and I will probably fall into more pitfalls writing my fanfiction than Bryke did in Season 2. If you have any good ideas, sling them my way. 

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    • I'm saying that the loss of the past lives is not "awful," if it upsets people, it's doing what it's supposed to do. If they go back on that, it just becomes, "Oh, that wasn't a big deal, all she had to do was X. Of course she wouldn't lose that permanently."

      Now, I know what you're thinking--actually I don't, but I'm going to pretend I do & use it as a pretext to say something I was going to say anyway--the loss of her bending is a different matter. You can't really have a show about "The Avatar, Master of All 4 Elements," if they can't actually use all 4 elements. I suppose you could say that at the very least it shouldn't have been as easy to regain them, but even if they had all the time in the world, I still don't think I'd want to see her re-learn the elements. I'm with Bryan, I already saw that once with Aang, I'm good.

      The point is that the past lives are the perfect sacrifice, because fans really care about them being gone & they're just useful/important enough that losing them poses an ongoing challenge but not so critical that the show can't function without them.

      Actually, there's a channel dedicated to over-analyzing anime that I think has a really good quote on this: "Death in media isn't interesting because 'oh that's sad, I'm sad,' it's interesting because it inherently changes the character dynamics. A character who was once a force in the narrative suddenly isn't, any arc they were going through is abruptly cut short, & the story can no longer rely on their presence to drive the plot."

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I'm saying that the loss of the past lives is not "awful," if it upsets people, it's doing what it's supposed to do. If they go back on that, it just becomes, "Oh, that wasn't a big deal, all she had to do was X. Of course she wouldn't lose that permanently."

      Now, I know what you're thinking--actually I don't, but I'm going to pretend I do & use it as a pretext to say something I was going to say anyway--the loss of her bending is a different matter. You can't really have a show about "The Avatar, Master of All 4 Elements," if they can't actually use all 4 elements. I suppose you could say that at the very least it shouldn't have been as easy to regain them, but even if they had all the time in the world, I still don't think I'd want to see her re-learn the elements. I'm with Bryan, I already saw that once with Aang, I'm good.

      The point is that the past lives are the perfect sacrifice, because fans really care about them being gone & they're just useful/important enough that losing them poses an ongoing challenge but not so critical that the show can't function without them.

      Actually, there's a channel dedicated to over-analyzing anime that I think has a really good quote on this: "Death in media isn't interesting because 'oh that's sad, I'm sad,' it's interesting because it inherently changes the character dynamics. A character who was once a force in the narrative suddenly isn't, any arc they were going through is abruptly cut short, & the story can no longer rely on their presence to drive the plot."

      Well said. I didn't completely understand where your point was coming from until I read the thread above it, and I completely agree. 

      The past lives, like you said, are the "perfect sacrifice". They not only cause problems for the character and the audience, since they played a major role in the first series, but it's a bit sentimental, and seeing Aang connect with Roku so much and seeing that contrast - where Korra doesn't connect with Aang more than twice - is really good for the character dynamic. 

      What I would have liked better is have Korra have a problem that can only be overcome if she had the ability to talk to her past lives, kind of like what Aang did in the series finale. Then, when Korra has to solve the problem on her own, she will be a better person, and can connect with her spiritual self even more. I get that something has to be lost, but she didn't really have much to overcome with the loss of her past lives. She could still enter the Avatar State, and there wasn't much consequence as a result of losing her connection. 

      Another nitpick I had (and this might seem completely unrelated, but bear with me) was that the Season 4 finale - the end of the Korra series - was just one villain that we heard about for only one season. If they somehow brought Amon, Unalaq or Zaheer back for the finale, that would cause significant problems for Team Avatar. I wanted some sort of really evil villain that they had to really take the time to evaluate to beat. There was a lack of that in the final season, because there was a different villain for each season. And if Korra didn't have her connection to her past lives, then she would have to solve it on her own. 

      If you didn't get that, just let me know, and I can explain further. But I really like the idea of losing her connection to her past lives. I just wish that there was more "finding herself" between then and facing Zaheer. 

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    • AvatarAero wrote:

      Aggression25 wrote:

      AvatarAero wrote:

      Aggression25 wrote:
      What would you have done to make LoK different, AvatarAero?
      1. Korra comes off as really bratty and idiotic. She's a heavy subscriber to the "Punch first, ask questions later" philosophy, but that doesn't really change over the entire series. Don't get me wrong, Season 3 and 4 were absolutely fantastic, but even after her pain from fighting Zaheer, she still acts stupid against Kuvira, showing that even though she went through 3 years of hardship, her thinking didn't change much. So I would have showed real change in Season 3 and 4, showing a more reserved Korra who thinks before she fights. Hell, even if she acted nicer towards people whose opinion differed from hers, I would be okay. 

      2. Everything that Korra wants comes easily to her. 

      "Lost your bending? Here, let's give you airbending out of nowhere!"

      "Can't bend anymore? Here, let me activate your Avatar State and give you back your bending, cause I can do that now!"

      "Do you need to know about Raava? Screw going on a trip and exploring the Spirit World, let me just explain everything in one big exposition dump!" (Admittedly, the Wan episodes were the best part of Season 2, but it is a huge exposition dump)

      Except for her recovery from the poison (Another example of great writing from Season 3 and 4), everything Korra wants comes easily to her. She doesn't have to work to find out how she needs to do anything, the only hard parts of her journey are doing the things she needs to do. Aang had to find out how to do something, do it, and then deal with the repercussions. Korra only has to do something, and then disappear for a few months. 

      After the Season 1 finale (the writers knew they needed a second season, so they copped out on the bending part) I would have forced Korra to go on a journey for half of the season, and only show her journey, with a bunch of references to the first show (Omashu, Kyoshi Island, more swamp action). Then, at the mid - season finale, when she gets back, she finds Republic City in ruins, and a bunch of her friends and family members hiding elsewhere. Then they reveal the problems that have happened in Republic City since they find out that the Avatar is gone. That would be much more appealing, for her to have to journey to get her bending back. 

      3. Stop with the romance. I get it. It's a more adult show than ATLA. You have to include some important parts of life if you want to scale the age up. But come on, Bryke! You didn't have to resort to the infamous "love triangle"! The only use for Mako and Asami in the first two seasons is to cause problems for Korra in everything she does, which gets infuriating when they do nothing else for half the series. Asami really steps up in Season 3 as a friend to Korra, making her worth it, but Mako just remains in the shadows for most of Season 2, and doesn't do much in Season 3. 

      If they had just never had the love triangle, it would have worked. There are a lot better ways to handle this. For example, have Mako choose Asami, and never have to worry about Korra. Or have Mako go with Korra, and then still think of Asami as a friend. There were so many problems in the first and second season, all because of dating, breaking up, kissing and more dating. At least Asami had the sense (sometimes) to focus on the bigger picture, but then she became petty at random points and just discussed love while there was an attack imminent. 

      4. The character shifts are enormous. The biggest and most obvious one that I can see is that Lin becomes less and less of a good cop than a counterbalance and cliched "bad cop" to Mako's intelligence. She spent all of Season 2 doing nothing but stopping Mako. The point where she is infuriated by Mako "barging in" on her meeting with Raiko killed me. This was the same guy who saved her ass when she was trapped in Sato's workshop. He helped save Republic City from Amon. The least she could have done was show some respect and say, "Well, even though you're a rookie, you are on Team Avatar, and without you, I wouldn't be able to bend, so sure, let's hear what you have to say." Lin is smarter than this. 

      Unalaq, as a villain, changes over the course of Season 2. First, he is this uber - spiritual guide, and then he tries to brute force the Northern Spiritual Portal into opening. Kind of a switch. Unalaq flip - flops on his decisions all the time. He told Korra that he could open the spirit portal, which he then told his children was a lie. When they reported that they couldn't capture the Avatar, which would have thrown a wrench into the works, he just went, "Oh well, we didn't need her anyway", which makes for a really wierd show to watch. 

      Keeping all the characters consistent is a real problem for the characters of Season 2, and while they do come back to their old selves, it's really weird watching them. Especially Bolin. Wow...

      Okay, but what about the loss of the past lives? Would you have done anything about that awful point in Book 2?

      A trip to the spirit world. She could spend maybe a whole episode learning about her past lives, and reconnect with them. Or maybe, she just needs to reconnect with the important ones, so that their knowledge will flow into her. If she hit a roadblock against Kuvira, and needed some additional strength or some knowledge, then that would have been a good thing to do. 

      Oh, she has to reconnect with all of them.

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    • Aggression25 wrote:

      AvatarAero wrote:

      Aggression25 wrote:

      AvatarAero wrote:


      Aggression25 wrote:
      What would you have done to make LoK different, AvatarAero?
      1. Korra comes off as really bratty and idiotic. She's a heavy subscriber to the "Punch first, ask questions later" philosophy, but that doesn't really change over the entire series. Don't get me wrong, Season 3 and 4 were absolutely fantastic, but even after her pain from fighting Zaheer, she still acts stupid against Kuvira, showing that even though she went through 3 years of hardship, her thinking didn't change much. So I would have showed real change in Season 3 and 4, showing a more reserved Korra who thinks before she fights. Hell, even if she acted nicer towards people whose opinion differed from hers, I would be okay. 

      2. Everything that Korra wants comes easily to her. 

      "Lost your bending? Here, let's give you airbending out of nowhere!"

      "Can't bend anymore? Here, let me activate your Avatar State and give you back your bending, cause I can do that now!"

      "Do you need to know about Raava? Screw going on a trip and exploring the Spirit World, let me just explain everything in one big exposition dump!" (Admittedly, the Wan episodes were the best part of Season 2, but it is a huge exposition dump)

      Except for her recovery from the poison (Another example of great writing from Season 3 and 4), everything Korra wants comes easily to her. She doesn't have to work to find out how she needs to do anything, the only hard parts of her journey are doing the things she needs to do. Aang had to find out how to do something, do it, and then deal with the repercussions. Korra only has to do something, and then disappear for a few months. 

      After the Season 1 finale (the writers knew they needed a second season, so they copped out on the bending part) I would have forced Korra to go on a journey for half of the season, and only show her journey, with a bunch of references to the first show (Omashu, Kyoshi Island, more swamp action). Then, at the mid - season finale, when she gets back, she finds Republic City in ruins, and a bunch of her friends and family members hiding elsewhere. Then they reveal the problems that have happened in Republic City since they find out that the Avatar is gone. That would be much more appealing, for her to have to journey to get her bending back. 

      3. Stop with the romance. I get it. It's a more adult show than ATLA. You have to include some important parts of life if you want to scale the age up. But come on, Bryke! You didn't have to resort to the infamous "love triangle"! The only use for Mako and Asami in the first two seasons is to cause problems for Korra in everything she does, which gets infuriating when they do nothing else for half the series. Asami really steps up in Season 3 as a friend to Korra, making her worth it, but Mako just remains in the shadows for most of Season 2, and doesn't do much in Season 3. 

      If they had just never had the love triangle, it would have worked. There are a lot better ways to handle this. For example, have Mako choose Asami, and never have to worry about Korra. Or have Mako go with Korra, and then still think of Asami as a friend. There were so many problems in the first and second season, all because of dating, breaking up, kissing and more dating. At least Asami had the sense (sometimes) to focus on the bigger picture, but then she became petty at random points and just discussed love while there was an attack imminent. 

      4. The character shifts are enormous. The biggest and most obvious one that I can see is that Lin becomes less and less of a good cop than a counterbalance and cliched "bad cop" to Mako's intelligence. She spent all of Season 2 doing nothing but stopping Mako. The point where she is infuriated by Mako "barging in" on her meeting with Raiko killed me. This was the same guy who saved her ass when she was trapped in Sato's workshop. He helped save Republic City from Amon. The least she could have done was show some respect and say, "Well, even though you're a rookie, you are on Team Avatar, and without you, I wouldn't be able to bend, so sure, let's hear what you have to say." Lin is smarter than this. 

      Unalaq, as a villain, changes over the course of Season 2. First, he is this uber - spiritual guide, and then he tries to brute force the Northern Spiritual Portal into opening. Kind of a switch. Unalaq flip - flops on his decisions all the time. He told Korra that he could open the spirit portal, which he then told his children was a lie. When they reported that they couldn't capture the Avatar, which would have thrown a wrench into the works, he just went, "Oh well, we didn't need her anyway", which makes for a really wierd show to watch. 

      Keeping all the characters consistent is a real problem for the characters of Season 2, and while they do come back to their old selves, it's really weird watching them. Especially Bolin. Wow...

      Okay, but what about the loss of the past lives? Would you have done anything about that awful point in Book 2?
      A trip to the spirit world. She could spend maybe a whole episode learning about her past lives, and reconnect with them. Or maybe, she just needs to reconnect with the important ones, so that their knowledge will flow into her. If she hit a roadblock against Kuvira, and needed some additional strength or some knowledge, then that would have been a good thing to do. 
      Oh, she has to reconnect with all of them.

      But we can't have her reconnect individually with a thousand Avatars (Roku's line, by the way, which isn't supported by Wan's story), so if we have her reconnect with the last three (Aang, Roku and Kyoshi) and then with Wan and a couple after him, then she should be able to get all the knowledge she needs. Or she could reconnect with Aang through Tenzin, Bumi and Kya, who could then help her with all of the others. 

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    • I read a story similar to what you suggest. Korra was able to reconnect with all her past lives just by reconnecting with Aang, forming a chain in reverse.

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    • That was pure fluke, then. 

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    • I love both seasons almost equally. I'll admit, I have a bit of bias towards ATLA, but LOK is an extremely strong show, and honestly when I talk to my friends I'll just use "Avatar" as a blanket term for both of them because I view LOK as a continuation of ATLA instead of a competing show. 

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    • AvatarAero wrote: That was pure fluke, then. 

      But imagine if it were really possible. All you'd have to do is connect with the Avatar before you, and then they connect with the Avatar before them and so on until you reconnect with the original. It'd be a remarkable way to restore a spiritual connection.

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    • Or she could form more of a bond with Raava? That seems more uniquely Korra than having to tie everything back to TLA.

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    • Aggression25 wrote:

      AvatarAero wrote: That was pure fluke, then. 

      But imagine if it were really possible. All you'd have to do is connect with the Avatar before you, and then they connect with the Avatar before them and so on until you reconnect with the original. It'd be a remarkable way to restore a spiritual connection.

      Yes, but the problem only arises once, and it won't happen again until Vaatu rises, because I think only he has the strength to break Raava like he did in their battle. Of course, it would be great for the new Avatar to deal with some of the repercussions...

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    • Or just go to the Spirit World.

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    • AvatarAero wrote:
       have Korra have a problem that can only be overcome if she had the ability to talk to her past lives, kind of like what Aang did in the series finale. 

      The past incarnations were of absolutely no help to Aang in resolving his dilemma in the series conclusion. The only helpful advice came from a giant turtle.

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    • Simple, A:TLA had like two really bad episodes, Korra had Book 2: Spirits

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Simple, A:TLA had like two really bad episodes, Korra had Book 2: Spirits

      What's you problem with Spirits? I'll admit, the bit with Korra threatening a judge rubbed me the wrong way, and the backstory for Wan was ill-timed, but it had great suspense, thrilling action and some decent development of Tenzin's character.

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    • What it did to pin beifong is unforgivable.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      What it did to pin beifong is unforgivable.

      Pin Beifong?  I don't remember that character, lol.

      Are you talking about Lin's being a jerk to Mako?

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    • Yeah

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    • I actually quite enjoyed Book 2, with...some exceptions. In Lin's defense, Mako made himself look like an idiot several times, for example barging in on an interrogation ranting & raving about some device that the witness didn't even recognize.

      Lin told him to file it with the detectives, which he should've done from the beginning if that was protocol. Now, we know they're incompetent & lazy, but they do most of that while Lin's back is turned. Once she cottons on, she fires them.

      She does pretty much what a police chief is supposed to do. They put a lot of trust in their unit, since it's their job to coordinate the police as a whole, not check every individual piece of alleged evidence.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I actually quite enjoyed Book 2, with...some exceptions [...]

      Same here. Actually, Book 2 had been my favorite book and that was by the time after all of Book 3 had been aired. I don't know why people judge the whole show so badly only because of one season that happened to have a few ups and downs.

      Sure, there are a few things I didn't enjoy - mostly the subplots -, but in overall, like Neo stated, I also really liked the book. 

      I think the biggest issues people have with the book are

      1) the love triangle (also not a big fan of it either, but not entirely appalled towards it)

      2) the severed connection to the past lives (personally, one of my favorite aspects of the entire show)

      Neo Bahamut: "The point is that the past lives are the perfect sacrifice, because fans really care about them being gone & they're just useful/important enough that losing them poses an ongoing challenge but not so critical that the show can't function without them."

      [...] Death in media isn't interesting because 'oh that's sad, I'm sad,' it's interesting because it inherently changes the character dynamics. A character who was once a force in the narrative suddenly isn't, any arc they were going through is abruptly cut short, & the story can no longer rely on their presence to drive the plot."

      Definitely agree with both here. I mean, the loss/sacrifice of the connection to all the past lives was such a game changer. I think I get why people are so upset about it, but seriously, that's brilliant.

      I could go on and on about this and delve deeper into the meanings and all the aspects of this, but experience - well, with that I mean observation - tells me that whatever you write in the internet, people won't care and will instead continue spatting out their opinions and try to force the other party into being of the same opinion.


      As to answer the thread's question, yes, like most already stated here, I think it's mostly due to nostalgia and denial. I mean, even Nickelodeon had their doubts about the series' success.

      People are complaining about so many things which are 'wrong' and 'bad' in their eyes, but exactly those things they're ranting about are what makes the show; e.g. Korra's character, the 'sudden lesbian fan service', the highly too advanced technology, the way that bending is being treated like the characters take it for granted etc.

      Funnily enough, the things people hate so much are the things I like the most. IMO, the fact that we get to see those advanced things are kind of cool and I think they did well delivering a 20's feeling. And seriously, even if the technology should have been too advanced, guys, don't forget - this is the Avatar-universe we're talking about. Of course everything's not as it is in the real world.

      The producers wanted to establish a solid ground for the show with those elements, a sole identity. I feel like people are missing the point because this is the point; TLOK might be the sequel of A:TLA but it's its own show.

      Again, you could take the example with the loss of the connection to the past lives as a symbol for this, but again, won't dive into it, unless someone either wants me to or seriously pisses me off and letting me no other choice as to do so.

      Personally, I'm a big fan of TLOK, even a bigger fan of it than of its prequel because of all those elements the show is based on. And yes, while it might not be perfect, neither is A:TLA if we're honest, and in my opinion, these A:TLA vs TLOK discussions are worthless, but if people want to bulge on it, so be it.

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    • Some people like Star Wars Attack of the Clones but that doesn't make it good. The same can be said of book 2. It didn't really add anything positive to the universe (it might even detract from it with the portals alone), went backwards with its main characters, and fumbles numerous times. It's really a mess when you actually examine it.

      I suppose it adds Varrick, so that's one positive? As opposed to Korra being the biggest jerk of the series for the first half of the book? Asami just being able to create [Equalist] weapons with no real implications and being okay with bribery? Two forgettable villains? The midichlorian effect of Wan's story?

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    • Some people like Star Wars Attack of the Clones but that doesn't make it good. The same can be said of book 2.

      News flash, you hating it & saying it's shit doesn't mean you're right either, this is a useless non-point.

      It's really a mess when you actually examine it.

      Except you didn't do that, you just made a bunch of assertions. Now, I want you to look at my "defense of Lin" post. THREE PARAGRAPHS were necessary to rebut something that could be said in as little as 2 words: "Lin sucks."

      It's easy for you to just throw out a bunch of assertions & proclaim them as fact, in order to actually rebut them, I would have to take a lot of time explaining, & the payoff isn't really worth it because you could always just brush it all aside because Star Wars & midichlorians or something.

      And that's not a baseless ad hominem, you didn't respond to the points either of us made, you just said they don't matter because something Star Wars something something midichlorians.

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      [...]

      I suppose it adds Varrick, so that's one positive? As opposed to Korra being the biggest jerk of the series for the first half of the book? Asami just being able to create [Equalist] weapons with no real implications and being okay with bribery? Two forgettable villains? The midichlorian effect of Wan's story?

      Well, to be fair, one might think that after such a meaningful event a person/character would have changed, but the fact is, that it's not as easy like that. Yes, Korra was pretty upset and all at the end of the first book, until Aang came in, but you can't really expect a complete 360° turn of character development.

      I won't deny that Korra was a bit annoying, but that's just her personality and her way of dealing with things. And I think that all this behavior of her was for a reason; character development. We didn't really have that in Book One. Some people might say that it began some time during Book Three, but you know when it really happened?

      Well, that's where the severed connection comes in.

      Bryke did it for a reason; for character development, which they said themselves, and IMO it did pay off.

      So, no, I wouldn't say that her character is a flop to the time of the second book. For me, the biggest jerk of the entire show would be Raiko, I guess, though his reasons are understandable.

      About Asami; I don't really see why you are complaining here. The mecha tanks were used in the civil war after all and we already know from the first book what they are capable of, so no need on dwelling on it. The book is called "Spirits" for a reason, after all.

      Now, I seriously looked up the term you used in your last point. Knowing its meaning, I will say that I don't think that Wan's story is essential for Book Two. I know the most - let's say 99% of this fandom - loves the episode(s), probably because it resembles A:TLA and say that it's the only good thing of the book.

      You too, as it seems.

      I disagree, though. I wouldn't say Beginnings has a 'midichlorian' effect. We do get some insight into how the Avatar Cycle began and who the first Avatar was etc. but really, Book Two has several aspects/subplots and only because you like two episodes the most, doesn't mean that they're the best and essential.

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    • I won't deny that Korra was a bit annoying, but that's just her personality and her way of dealing with things.

      Whether or not people find it annoying, it's been addressed at great length how her reactions were born of the tension of trying to navigate between her expected role as a neutral peace keeper & her very much non-neutral stake in the conflict, so for some to claim this didn't advance her character, that just comes across as willful ignorance. Even worse when the argument reduces to "I found the character annoying," as if development means that anyone in particular, subjectively, will not be made to feel uncomfortable by the conflict.

      For me, the biggest jerk of the entire show would be Raiko, I guess, though his reasons are understandable.

      Ah, yes, I remember having many debates with people who apparently seriously felt that doing absolutely nothing to prevent the literal end of the world was legitimately "good strategy."

      About Asami; I don't really see why you are complaining here.

      I believe he's complaining about how Asami's manufacturing of the weapons & attempting to profit off of the war was "bad," but a major theme of the series & especially book 2 is shades of gray.

      The book is called "Spirits" for a reason, after all.

      In fairness, arguably the biggest problem with Book 2 is that it has little to actually do with Spirits until an abrupt switch in the last half or third or whatever it was. I say "arguably" because the sting operation & the civil war were the strongest subplots, in my view.

      Now, I seriously looked up the term you used in your last point.

      I can only assume "Midichlorian Effect" means "I preferred the more ambiguous backstory for the Avatar, which therefore means the new one is bad," because that's generally the point one makes when they invoke Midichlorians.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      Whether or not people find it annoying, it's been addressed at great length how her reactions were born of the tension of trying to navigate between her expected role as a neutral peace keeper & her very much non-neutral stake in the conflict, so for some to claim this didn't advance her character, that just comes across as willful ignorance. Even worse when the argument reduces to "I found the character annoying," as if development means that anyone in particular, subjectively, will not be made to feel uncomfortable by the conflict.

      I know that. I did watch the same show as you, don't worry. I didn't exactly claim that it doesn't advance her character. In fact, I pointed out that there's a specific reason for her reactions. And while I did say that she was a tad annoying, I was referring more to the Makorrasami triangle bit. In overall, I get why she did what she did.

      Ah, yes, I remember having many debates with people who apparently seriously felt that doing absolutely nothing to prevent the literal end of the world was legitimately "good strategy."

      Putting it like you do, that wouldn't sound like a good strategy. I am not the biggest fan of Raiko, but as others stated in threads, his actions - or lack thereof - were justified to a certain degree.

      I can only assume "Midichlorian Effect" means "I preferred the more ambiguous backstory for the Avatar, which therefore means the new one is bad," because that's generally the point one makes when they invoke Midichlorians.

      Well, kind of, I guess.. I think Kubernes meant that the Wan episode(s) had an essential effect on the book, basically meaning that the season would be nothing without it. And as I said, I don't agree.

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    • I know that. I did watch the same show as you, don't worry. I didn't exactly claim that it doesn't advance her character. In fact, I pointed out that there's a specific reason for her reactions.

      I know, I was doing a weird addressing a 3rd person thing. I wasn't originally going to respond to the points as per what I said earlier, but when you basically laid the groundwork I decided I could be assed to fill in more details.

      And while I did say that she was a tad annoying, I was referring more to the Makorrasami triangle bit.

      Well, I can't argue with that.

      Putting it like you do, that wouldn't sound like a good strategy. I am not the biggest fan of Raiko, but as others stated in threads, his actions - or lack thereof - were justified to a certain degree.

      There's a certain point up to which I understand him, sometimes even agree with him, but once he learns about Vaatu--& he makes it clear he believes Korra--he just goes completely off the rails & he basically goes downhill from there, presumably to justify Zaheer's observation that he's "a moronic President." I mean, there's just no rational reason that he couldn't spare even 1 ship for the cause of preventing the apocalypse.

      Well, kind of, I guess.. I think Kubernes meant that the Wan episode(s) had an essential effect on the book, basically meaning that the season would be nothing without it. And as I said, I don't agree.

      There's not really much more point in me speculating on it, I just didn't feel like asking because I wanted to head off a plausible "you should know what I'm talking about if you examined the plot as closely as I did" response.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      ​A Ah, yes, I remember having many debates with people who apparently seriously felt that doing absolutely nothing to prevent the literal end of the world was legitimately "good strategy."
      ​B I believe he's complaining about how Asami's manufacturing of the weapons & attempting to profit off of the war was "bad," but a major theme of the series & especially book 2 is shades of gray.
      ​C I can only assume "Midichlorian Effect" means "I preferred the more ambiguous backstory for the Avatar, which therefore means the new one is bad," because that's generally the point one makes when they invoke Midichlorians.

      A - As opposed to what? If you remember, there's only a few days to HC. How exactly do you get a force mobilized, sail it to the SWT, defeat or bypass the blockade, land the force, and march it to the southern portal in a few days? A few days being as short as two days to as long as four days. The options are not good. Of course, the north pole is the correct option but apparently that's not an actual option. Thank heavens for a plot convient battleship that's the fastest ship in the world and has a plane (which also adds to the problem of sending a  force). Not really much of a choice.

      B - Where's this mention of shades of grey in book 2. The entire Raava/Vaatu situation pretty much kills that outright. Good and evil are very very very clear in book and distinct lines are drawn between them. More like characters are getting suckered into helping the villains.

      With Asami, no one really mentions that making weapons is a potentially bad thing. Apparently no one cared. You'd think Mako would but nope!

      C- A midichlorian effecti is simply something that detracts from a mythos/background rather than supplements or adds to it. HC alone is the opposite of yin and yang, which is what Raava/Vaatu were supposed to be. It's like they completely forgot about Tui and La and that relationship perfectly encapsulates the Yin/Yang Harmony idea. There's numerous instances of this in Beginnings.

      Now that I remember, the only good thing besides Varrick in book 2 was the Tenzin storyline.

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    • A. It's the literal apocalypse vs. a navy blockade, it's not a hard priority to figure out, one is a little harder to deal with.

      B. Raava & Vaatu are not the only part of Book 2.

      C. No it isn't.

      That was undeserving of a full response.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      A. It's the literal apocalypse vs. a navy blockade, it's not a hard priority to figure out, one is a little harder to deal with.

      B. Raava & Vaatu are not the only part of Book 2.

      C. No it isn't.

      That was undeserving of a full response.

      A - You're just presenting a false choice. If you can't get down to the south portal, there are few alternatives against "chaos". Sure, the north portal but the writers didn't think of that. Then again, there's spirits that are portals and can give plot amnesia.

      B - No, but they are part of book 2 that people point to as the 'best' part of the book: Beginnings. They also drown any grey portions of the book because of that main conflict of literal good versus evil.

      C - Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

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    • I could say you can't just cherry pick which parts the Book you want to "count," how it's not a "false choice" to say the UF can't defeat the Dark Spirits since it's shown in the finale, & so on, but what's the point? It obviously doesn't embarrass you to make such facile, easily debunked claims.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I could say you can't just cherry pick which parts the Book you want to "count," how it's not a "false choice" to say the UF can't defeat the Dark Spirits since it's shown in the finale, & so on, but what's the point? It obviously doesn't embarrass you to make such facile, easily debunked claims.

      Now that is a pretty embarrassing attempt at a retort. The idea of choosing between either attempting to attack the blockade or it's the end of the world is just a terrible argument. Why? Because, at that stage in the story (Night of a Thousand Stars), the blockade is just an obstacle among several rather than a major focus previously in the book. Defeating the blockade alone doesn't defeat Unalaq since there's that problem of mobilizing, sailing to the swt, landing, offloading, traveling by land to the southern portal, and then defeating Unalaq.

      Cherry picking would have been something like choosing one of those obstacles and saying that getting past that alone would solve the problem or that not doing it would have resulted in armageddon. It is plain fallacious and easily to confute. A bit silly as well.

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    • Neo Bahamut
      Neo Bahamut removed this reply because:
      Not worth it.
      05:27, February 24, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Thinklogic wrote:
      I think TLOK's plot goes a bit rushed with a lack of character development." 

      I agree with you on this one. What I loved about the ATLA was the deepness in character development and relationship between them. For what I have seen in LoK for now (just finished book two) Is that these are often neglected. It all kind of feels superficial, and it all follows the same pattern: There is a problem, Korra uses violence, it doesnt get her anywhere, she starts doubting herself, and then someone comes and says that its ok you can do it,  and the she is basically just given the answer to what she is supposed to do. Emphasize on given, as I still haven't seen her figuring something out by herself, actually learning from her mistakes. In the ATLA characters also had more sides to them, they were complicated just like real people. In LoK it feels that it is just one characteristic that defines the character which is really annoying as they commit the same mistakes over and over again. I'm not saying that LoK was bad, I really enjoyed the first book, and I'll start watching the third book soon. I really like the idea of a woman being the avatar and presented as powerful and respected being, and I really hope there is further character development. I just wished that the producing of the animation didn't have such a rushed plot, I don't really know how it is with the comics but I hope its different.

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    • I think that's a strangely common characterization of Book 2, considering Korra in fact tries to be diplomatic first & that doesn't work, but either way, if you're like most people, you'll probably feel differently once you start getting through Books 3 & 4.

      The thing about an arc is that its trajectory is more apparent as more of it is visible.

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    • ...and I have just run across still more bitter Makorrians, elsewhere, bewailing how the entire series was "ruined" by their 'ship not being endgame.

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    • Shipping. Not even once.

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    • You'd think they'd be over it by now; it was exceptional only by virtue of being a deconstruction.  But no such luck.  And based on how they're harping on it—and scrambling desperately to pretend that it's not all about their 'ship sinking—I half suspect that they may be one of the main sources of at least the more recent hate.

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    • There are still Zutarans out there, Makorrians being around isn't surprising.

      I don't get why they can't just split the difference: Makorrasami

      or

      Zutang

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    • Zutarians, for the most part, seem less...rabid...and seem to have less in the way of persection fantasies.  And even if there was that much ruined-forevering and virulent irrational character hate (be that aimed at whoever was perceived as "crotchblocking" the fandom favorite, or whoever was perceived as "friendzoning" him) at the time over Zutara not happening, it's not as much in evidence now.  So...worst case scenario is that they've either calmed down, or accepted that their pairing was essentially manufactured by Nickelodeon to troll them.

      Plus, with Korrasami vs, Makorra, we get that additional wrinkle that no one wants to talk about.  Don't get it twisted; I'm not saying all of them or even most of them are; I'm saying that if the ones who aren't are really so horrified at the thought of being associated with the genuine article, they need to quit flipping out over perceived false accusations and deal with the actual problem.  (But then again, all too many of them seem to think that the only actual problems are that their 'ship sunk and it was Korra who moved on.)

      Teal-deer: 'shippers are ridiculous to begin with.  Now, add to that the fan reaction when the fandom favorite doesn't hook up with the girl to whom the worst of them think he's entitled.  And Makorra vs. Korrasami is not only more recent, but took a twist that's still seen as controversial.

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    • The worst part about the entitlement argument is that he cheated on both of them with the other. If entitlement ever existed, that act alone would forever lose him the deed.

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    • There's this one fan who lurks on a few fansites, or sites with significant fan contingents, that are willing to put up with her nonsense.  Throughout Book 1, she'd not only all but make fun of anyone who suggested that Makorra might not be endgame, but once claimed (or at least co-signed the claim) that 'shipping Korra with anyone except Mako violated her character agency.

      Then, they broke up...and she had a minor meltdown.  I remember running across this one incoherent post from her Tumblr where she insisted that if they didn't get back together, they wouldn't be able to get along and Korra wouldn't be ready to date anyone. (Personally, I wonder how she managed to miss how that was the case before they got together.  But I digress.)

      She was relatively quiet for the rest of the run of the series—interpreted every interaction between Korra and Mako as romantic, praised how Korra and Asami were becoming such good friends, posted the occasional (as often as not wrongheaded) meta regarding something that wasn't Korra's love life, and that was about it.  And then, the finale happened...and she completely flipped her lid (TVTropes and AvatarSpirit seem to have gotten the brunt of it, if anyone's curious enough to brave either of those hellholes) and went back on every positive thing she'd said about the second half of the series.

      Since then, it's been all about how she hates Asami (sure, she pays lip service to the contrary; it invariably adds up to how Asami really is too brittle to date Korra or really isn't important enough to be considered a major character, and how that's totally not character hate), thinks Korra is "out of character" for reciprocating Asami's affections, and thinks that it's all so unfair to Mako.  (Oh: and she interpreted Bryan Konietzko's denunciation of fandom homophobes as a blanket accusation of homophobia against all Makorra 'shippers, in case anyone's wondering where that script came from.)

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      There's this one fan who lurks on a few fansites, or sites with significant fan contingents, that are willing to put up with her nonsense.  Throughout Book 1, she'd not only all but make fun of anyone who suggested that Makorra might not be endgame, but once claimed (or at least co-signed the claim) that 'shipping Korra with anyone except Mako violated her character agency.

      Then, they broke up...and she had a minor meltdown.  I remember running across this one incoherent post from her Tumblr where she insisted that if they didn't get back together, they wouldn't be able to get along and Korra wouldn't be ready to date anyone. (Personally, I wonder how she managed to miss how that was the case before they got together.  But I digress.)

      She was relatively quiet for the rest of the run of the series—interpreted every interaction between Korra and Mako as romantic, praised how Korra and Asami were becoming such good friends, posted the occasional (as often as not wrongheaded) meta regarding something that wasn't Korra's love life, and that was about it.  And then, the finale happened...and she completely flipped her lid (TVTropes and AvatarSpirit seem to have gotten the brunt of it, if anyone's curious enough to brave either of those hellholes) and went back on every positive thing she'd said about the second half of the series.

      Since then, it's been all about how she hates Asami (sure, she pays lip service to the contrary; it invariably adds up to how Asami really is too brittle to date Korra or really isn't important enough to be considered a major character, and how that's totally not character hate), thinks Korra is "out of character" for reciprocating Asami's affections, and thinks that it's all so unfair to Mako.  (Oh: and she interpreted Bryan Konietzko's denunciation of fandom homophobes as a blanket accusation of homophobia against all Makorra 'shippers, in case anyone's wondering where that script came from.)

      What the.. Wow, the nerves of some people. It's just a cartoon series, why bother that much? Geez, things, or rather people, like this really annoy me. Hell, I had been a Makorra shipper until some time into Book 2, and yes, their break-up got a little to me, but seriously, once Book 3 started I couldn't care less about them anymore. Did I think that they might get back together eventually? Perhaps, to some degree. Do I hate Asami now because of all this? Absolutely not. Do I hate the ship Korrasami? No. I ship it even, but again, not being a total fangirl.

      And yeah, her statements are stupid. What's got one guy to do with a whole character arc? Eh, you know what, I don't even wanna get into another of those senseless discussions regarding shipping. There's already enough of that alone here on the wiki.

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    • She's just...kind of a prime example of how fans will go completely off the deep end over the silliest shit.  I think the worst part is that, even after she so spectacularly lost it, there are still people who act like citing her automatically proves that Makorra should have been endgame.

      I mean, she posted this wankery (warning: bothering with that will give you a headache) concerning how introducing an airbender girlfriend for Asami in Book 3 would have solved everything.  And despite the fact that her rationale for this was fairly self-contradictory, based on some serious jumps to conclusions, and pretty damn disingenuous (note how she tries to argue that Korrasami happening somehow means that the canon ending isn't "about Korra," but conveniently leaves out how desperately she wants Asami "out of the way" of her 'ship)?  Not only did people continue taking her seriously after that, but no one so much as rebutted it.

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    • Even one of the tags says 'Shipping nonsense'..

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    • From what I've seen from her?  Either it was self-deprecatory without being self-aware (trying to distract from the fact that she was in one of her characteristic smug snits in the hopes that no one would notice as much and rip her wank to shreds), or it was her taking a jab at Korrasami and trying to be sneaky about it.

      And I wonder if she thinks the Big Damn Kataang kiss at the end of A:TLA means that the finale of that wasn't about Aang?

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:

      And I wonder if she thinks the Big Damn Kataang kiss at the end of A:TLA means that the finale of that wasn't about Aang?

      Lol. If she happens to be a Zutara fan.. Probably. :P

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    • Considering she's accused Korrasami of basically being the equivalent of Zutara having actually happened, I actually don't think she is.

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    • Well, that's surprising.

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    • She just generally comes off as not too self-aware.  And not too observant.  And, above all: like the willingness of bitter Makorra holdouts to equate agreeing with them at great length with genuine insight (and praise her for it) has gone to her head.

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    • At least she's dedicated..

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    • And then, the finale happened...and she completely flipped her lid (TVTropes and AvatarSpirit seem to have gotten the brunt of it, if anyone's curious enough to brave either of those hellholes)

      Wouldn't be much point to it, since I have no idea whom I'm looking for.

      Since then, it's been all about how she hates Asami (sure, she pays lip service to the contrary;

      That seems to happen a lot, with both Asami & Korra.

      thinks Korra is "out of character" for reciprocating Asami's affections, and thinks that it's all so unfair to Mako.

      Mako can eat a dick. Perhaps in more ways than one, if Wuko shippers are right.

      I think the worst part is that, even after she so spectacularly lost it, there are still people who act like citing her automatically proves that Makorra should have been endgame.

      Saw this a lot when Bleach ended too. People have too much time on their hands & overanalyze every snippet of material in a blatantly biased way, therefore OTP.

      Not only did people continue taking her seriously after that, but no one so much as rebutted it.

      Funny, because there's quite a lot of problems with this.

      So here is my proposal: What if they made a named female airbender (which strangely don't seem to exist)....

      Opal. Jinora. Ikki. Technically Korra herself. This line alone makes me wonder how anyone could take this seriously.

      The problem with a certain in-game ship as representation is this--if you try to build a skyscraper with only the resources for a 2 story house, the result will inevitably be shoddy and incomplete.

      Hyperbole aside, you're watching a show about war on Nickelodeon. Network constraints for serious topics are the norm.

      This wouldn't take much actual screen time

      It takes more than what was done in the show, so it would only work if Asami's role was further reduced, though I don't think this person would mind gutting a character for Mako's benefit. I also have to wonder where this "Asami is a Side Character" line came from. In which Book does she not have a major role?

      Considering she's accused Korrasami of basically being the equivalent of Zutara having actually happened, I actually don't think she is.

      Leaving aside the total lack of similarity, the problem with Zutara is its clear absence in any stage of development. If it actually happened, then it wouldn't be a crack ship anymore.

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    • And the beFogged wiki ate my reply. Here goes again:

      Wouldn't be much point to it, since I have no idea whom I'm looking for.

      Not gonna post her screen name, since she seems to have an (empty, inactive) account here and is a medium-name fan in the bargain...but she's the person in this thread who's trying to argue that Korra should resent Asami on account of associating her with her recovery. (Who, ironically enough, has a picture of Korra for her icon.)  And she gets even more ridiculous two pages later.

      That seems to happen a lot, with both Asami & Korra.

      Yeah...there's this one fan writer (one of Lunastar's pals, predictably enough) who's always gushing about how much she loves Korra (no homo), but seems to hate that Korra is a bisexual trauma survivor from a culture of hunters. (And keeps calling her skin tone "tan," in the bargain. If she wants a character with tan skin, I direct her towards P'Li.)

      Mako can eat a dick. Perhaps in more ways than one, if Wuko shippers are right.

      Apparently, the chemistry between Mako and Wu wasn't intended to read as romantic; it remains that they had more chemistry with each other than Mako had with either of his canon love interests.

      Saw this a lot when Bleach ended too. People have too much time on their hands & overanalyze every snippet of material in a blatantly biased way, therefore OTP.

      Haven't seen Bleach; have heard horror stories. Ditto Naruto.

      Funny, because there's quite a lot of problems with this.
      So here is my proposal: What if they made a named female airbender (which strangely don't seem to exist)....
      Opal. Jinora. Ikki. Technically Korra herself. This line alone makes me wonder how anyone could take this seriously.

      I was actually tempted to say something along the lines of "so you wish Asami had ended up with Opal, then?" in response to that idea. As she's apparently at least something of a Bopal 'shipper, it would probably sting.

      Mind you, I'm at least something of a Bopal 'shipper myself. It's simply that Opal is a fairly inchoate character, and the pairing developed mostly off-screen and between books.  But yet, how does this silly girl go about trying to invalidate Asami and Korrasami?

      The problem with a certain in-game ship as representation is this--if you try to build a skyscraper with only the resources for a 2 story house, the result will inevitably be shoddy and incomplete.
      Hyperbole aside, you're watching a show about war on Nickelodeon. Network constraints for serious topics are the norm.
      This wouldn't take much actual screen time
      It takes more than what was done in the show, so it would only work if Asami's role was further reduced, though I don't think this person would mind gutting a character for Mako's benefit. I also have to wonder where this "Asami is a Side Character" line came from. In which Book does she not have a major role?

      Or, alternately: they'd need a hell of a lot more screen time to work with than they had even before their budget got cut in order to splice in this airbender.  I find it amusing that her argument is that Korrasami was an inadequate romantic arc that's an insult to Korra, while Asami is an unimportant character who merits no better...and that the "solution" would be to give Asami what would most likely be the most involved romantic arc on the show in order to get her out of the way of Makorra, since we all know that's what this is really about.

      Speaking of Makorra: there's also the fact that—contrary to her insistence—it had no romantic development after Book 2 (unless one counts Mako being slightly awkward around both Korra and Asami at the beginning of Book 3, although I'm sure she does).  So in order to keep this woman from being an even bigger hypocrite, they'd also need to splice that in.  And considering how romantically incompatible Korra and Mako proved to be—and the fit that she'd throw if Korra's love life didn't get objectively more focus than Asami's—that would require an even longer timeframe.

      All-in-all: I think she's desperately bargaining for an alternative version of the story that keeps her 'ship intact while preserving what she perceives as the entire purpose of Korrasami happening—thus, exempting her from any suspicion of biphobia.  (Not to say that it actually works that way, since her understanding of why Korrasami happened is rooted in bias and her idea still effectively erases Korra's bisexuality.  But she seems to be in denial of at very least that latter.)  The logistics of her idea, and any real examination of her position or the why of it, be damned.

      And I am no longer at all surprised when a Makorra holdout is completely cool with gutting a character on Mako's behalf—not even if that character is Korra. (Mind you, this woman isn't as bad as the likes of that fan writer I mentioned earlier; but that's setting the bar low.)  And since most of them already dislike Asami for crotchblocking their OTP from both ends (hence, this attempt to downplay her importance), it comes as even less of a surprise when she's designated as fair game.

      (As a side note: she also at very least verges on being a Kuvira apologist, but can't comprehend why anyone would say that the Red Lotus ops had antivillain cred.  Take what you will from that.)

      Leaving aside the total lack of similarity, the problem with Zutara is its clear absence in any stage of development. If it actually happened, then it wouldn't be a crack ship anymore.

      This is a direct quote from her: 

      A Bitter Overrated Makorrian wrote:
      As far as I’m concerned, replacing A:tLA’s ending with a Zutara ending is a very close equivalent to what we got in LoK. >_>;

      In other words: that Korrasami was similarly absent before the end because she didn't pick up on it (and, by implication, that Makorra was still a going concern after Book 2 because she wanted it to be endgame), and is thus comparable to a fake 'shiptease that was manufactured by trolling execs. 

      And remember:  When shown unequivocal canon intimacy between Korra and Asami, this silly girl insists either that it's platonic and thus somehow irrelevant to them ultimately falling in love, or that it's just straight-up irrelevant.  (That is, when she's not claiming that Korra is out of character.)

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    • And the beFogged wiki ate my reply. Here goes again:

      Be like me. Copy everything you write before you send it. Live behind 7 different walls of paranoia.

      Not gonna post her screen name, since she seems to have an (empty, inactive) account here and is a medium-name fan in the bargain...but she's the person in this thread who's trying to argue that Korra should resent Asami on account of associating her with her recovery.

      I'll be sure to take a peek.

      Yeah...there's this one fan writer (one of Lunastar's pals, predictably enough) who's always gushing about how much she loves Korra (no homo),

      Whoa, yeah, that part was weirdly specific & came right the Hell out of nowhere.

      but seems to hate that Korra is a bisexual trauma survivor from a culture of hunters. (And keeps calling her skin tone "tan," in the bargain. If she wants a character with tan skin, I direct her towards P'Li.)

      I would be a lot more likely to call Korra tan than P'Li. I'm not that surprised that she has issues with Korra being bisexual, but the rest of it is, once more, oddly specific.

      Apparently, the chemistry between Mako and Wu wasn't intended to read as romantic; it remains that they had more chemistry with each other than Mako had with either of his canon love interests.

      I am Jack's lack of surprise. But yes, I will concede to that second clause, insofar as I recognize the concept of "chemistry." Really, I just wanted to make that pun.

      Haven't seen Bleach; have heard horror stories. Ditto Naruto.

      Bleach is beautiful & pure & why am I the only one who still likes it?

      In defense of the Naruto fandom--a sentence it is utterly bewildering to utter--Naruto's relationship writing is legitimately dumb. As in the writer literally never addresses the fact that Hinata--who eventually marries Naruto--outright told him she loved him halfway through the series & in a movie set after the series it's said that Naruto forgot it somehow? And in that time there were a bunch of hints dropped between Naruto & Sakura ostensibly for the sheer purpose of trolling the fanbase. But don't worry about Sakura, she married the emo git who tried to kill her for getting in the way of his angst-fueled rampage, who apparently doesn't pay attention to her & has been away for so long that he doesn't even know what their daughter looks like.

      Mind you, I'm at least something of a Bopal 'shipper myself.

      Bopal is also beautiful & pure.

      Or, alternately: they'd need a hell of a lot more screen time to work with than they had even before their budget got cut in order to splice in this airbender.

      Well, yeah, that's why I gave her the benefit of the doubt & assumed she wanted screen time trimmed from somewhere else, because that at least makes some actual sense. If you're not trying to develop Korrasami, in theory, you can gut large chunks of entire episodes of the development that apparently didn't really happen & change them to something else.

      All-in-all: I think she's desperately bargaining for an alternative version of the story that keeps her 'ship intact while preserving what she perceives as the entire purpose of Korrasami happening—thus, exempting her from any suspicion of biphobia.

      Yeah...in general, this is actually kind of a problem I have with hypothetical "fixes." I mean, I do them too, so I'm not saying they should be thrown out entirely. But one has to be careful that they actually, y'know, fix more problems than they create.

      And I am no longer at all surprised when a Makorra holdout is completely cool with gutting a character on Mako's behalf—not even if that character is Korra.

      Also happens a lot in Bleach shipping. It's particularly sad when fans want to destroy the genuinely positive relationships--be they romantic or otherwise--between "rival" characters just for the sake of an arbitrary fictional pairing.

      (As a side note: she also at very least verges on being a Kuvira apologist, but can't comprehend why anyone would say that the Red Lotus ops had antivillain cred. Take what you will from that.)

      You know, the funny thing is that despite being described as ludicrously For The Evulz strawman version of anarchists, I actually find the Red Lotus's ideas more respectable than those of the actual anarchists I've talked to. I give them credit for not trying to make some vague, magical thinking type excuse about how removing government will somehow lead to everyone "just taking care of each other," & just saying flat-out that they prize total freedom over safety & stability. It's utterly bonkers, but it's a kind of bonkers that knows & embraces how bonkers it is.

      And remember: When shown unequivocal canon intimacy between Korra and Asami, this silly girl insists either that it's platonic and thus somehow irrelevant to them ultimately falling in love, or that it's just straight-up irrelevant. (That is, when she's not claiming that Korra is out of character.)

      "If I make an argument that can't be proven wrong, that means it must be right!"

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    • I have since checked into that person, & it led me to a lot of hilariously ironic things. I particularly enjoyed "it appeals to fans to think that things they like were planned from the beginning & therefore the only valid interpretation." But hands-down the highlight of my night had to be discovering this unrelated, yet totally accurate, assessment of myself.

      I really wanted to make a "Laughing at the Fandumb" topic, because the drama on these fansites are legitimately hilarious, but there never seems to be enough new examples on-hand when you want them.

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    • That is.. Okay, I need to stop myself or else my head will get all full of this crap. Like, some things she said are honestly bullshit.

      The idea that Korra's romantic interest dressed her up is gross. Korra would never want that.

      I mean.. What? I can't even.. And that tumblr blog is also basically dumb and so contradicting and.. just bullshit, sorry for the language. This is too much stupidity for me.

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    • The stuff about Korra's "true character" is pretty hilarious. It's like the straw version of Korra that is whipped out mostly when someone wants to say she's the worst thing ever. Also using the fact that Korra snapped at Katara one time (& then immediately apologized for) to prove she's some kind of robot who always hates anyone trying to help her, because that is how a sane person behaves.

      I think my favorite thing about the blog is that half of the posts don't even contain a single quote from an actual Korrasami shipper.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:Whoa, yeah, that part was weirdly specific & came right the Hell out of nowhere.

      Rest assured that by a week after the finale, she'd gone from "not that there's anything wrong with that" to sharing pray-away-the-gay crap on social media. (And pre-emptively playing victim before anyone even responded.)

      I would be a lot more likely to call Korra tan than P'Li. I'm not that surprised that she has issues with Korra being bisexual, but the rest of it is, once more, oddly specific.

      "Tan," to me, implies a light shade of brown; P'Li had a fairly dark skin tone by Fire Nation standards (compare her skin tone to Zaheer's; slightly darker with notably warmer undertones even after thirteen years in an ice crevasse), but pretty much only by Fire Nation standards. Korra, by contrast, has a fairly dark complexion even by Water Tribe standards; "umber" would fit more accurately.

      And I don't even know what prompted her to announce that she didn't understand how someone as strong and spiritual as the Avatar could develop PTSD in the first place; all that she'd needed in order to weather the rough spots in her life was faith, after all. (Said "rough spots," for the record? Her parents divorcing, her sister and brother-in-law separating, and getting robbed. Somehow, that doesn't seem to measure up to "surviving a nearly-successful attempt on one's life and suffering an existential crisis.") Or to write Korra as a lifetime vegetarian and "pacifist when it comes to animals." (Korra, we'll recall, is fantasy-counterpart Inuk and comes from a climate that's likely too harsh for vegetarianism to be feasible. If this fan wants a vegetarian Avatar, I direct her towards Aang.) It remains that she did both of the above.

      I am Jack's lack of surprise. But yes, I will concede to that second clause, insofar as I recognize the concept of "chemistry." Really, I just wanted to make that pun.

      Heh heh.

      Bleach is beautiful & pure & why am I the only one who still likes it? In defense of the Naruto fandom--a sentence it is utterly bewildering to utter--Naruto's relationship writing is legitimately dumb. As in the writer literally never addresses the fact that Hinata--who eventually marries Naruto--outright told him she loved him halfway through the series & in a movie set after the series it's said that Naruto forgot it somehow? And in that time there were a bunch of hints dropped between Naruto & Sakura ostensibly for the sheer purpose of trolling the fanbase. But don't worry about Sakura, she married the emo git who tried to kill her for getting in the way of his angst-fueled rampage, who apparently doesn't pay attention to her & has been away for so long that he doesn't even know what their daughter looks like.

      I think the last anime I watched was Sanzoku no Musume Ronja with subs, and that (for no particular reason) was the first anime I'd watched in years. I might be interested in Bleach; but as for Naruto, you're making me think that I dodged a bullet.

      Bopal is also beautiful & pure.

      Still think Opal is kind of inchoate (although hopefully that will be remedied by the comic), but I'm inclined to agree.

      Well, yeah, that's why I gave her the benefit of the doubt & assumed she wanted screen time trimmed from somewhere else, because that at least makes some actual sense. If you're not trying to develop Korrasami, in theory, you can gut large chunks of entire episodes of the development that apparently didn't really happen & change them to something else.

      In light of her perpetual smug petulance and disingenuousness, I've become disinclined to give her any more of the benefit of the doubt than she's already gotten.

      Also: what she's still leaving unspoken is that she thought that up at least in part to get Asami out of the way of Makorra. If one cut out Korrasami (which was between two actually compatible characters) and spliced in a fairly involved love story between Asami and this random airbender within the same timeframe as canon, that would leave little to no time to resolve Makorra (who really weren't that compatible)—at least, not in anything resembling a realistic fashion. At best, they'd merely be overshadowed by Asami and the airbender girl.

      And if they pretty much just picked up where they started off, like she seems to think they could? That (ironically enough, considering the smack she talks about Korrasami) would effectively be the writers half-assing Korra's love story. (Of course, that person is an irrational 'shipper. I'm not sure that she'd care if they half-assed Korra's love story as long as Mako got what she thinks was owed to him.)

      Yeah...in general, this is actually kind of a problem I have with hypothetical "fixes." I mean, I do them too, so I'm not saying they should be thrown out entirely. But one has to be careful that they actually, y'know, fix more problems than they create.

      Let she who has never spared certain jerkbenders throw the first stone at fix fics. (In my defense, it wasn't about 'shipping; it was about wanting them to suffer.)

      You know, the funny thing is that despite being described as ludicrously For The Evulz strawman version of anarchists, I actually find the Red Lotus's ideas more respectable than those of the actual anarchists I've talked to. I give them credit for not trying to make some vague, magical thinking type excuse about how removing government will somehow lead to everyone "just taking care of each other," & just saying flat-out that they prize total freedom over safety & stability. It's utterly bonkers, but it's a kind of bonkers that knows & embraces how bonkers it is.

      Ehh...most of the actual anarchists I've talked to have been less against government, per se, than hierarchy. I won't pretend that there isn't a certain faction whose ideas wouldn't work unless everyone was chaotic good; but even so.

      As for the strawnarchism of the Red Lotus vs. the vaguely authoritarian underpinnings of what, nonetheless, is still the best book in the series? Not even gonna go there. (Remember, they did have Zaheer going off about freedom at all costs...but also, had him specifically discuss oppression, under circumstances where that was a very real issue. Putting that latter in the mouth of a strawnarchist antagonist—antivillain or no—is...a bit screwy, to say the least. Especially if that antagonist is actually kind of a control freak. Sorry; gonna stop now.)

      And...ah, yes: Gems of Korrasami. A hell of a lot of those are either troll blogs taken at face value, or comments taken out of context. Which isn't even going into such bizarre shit as the blog owner getting horribly offended at the thought of Mako 'shipping Korrasami even though he clearly does.

      Korra2000 wrote: That is.. Okay, I need to stop myself or else my head will get all full of this crap. Like, some things she said are honestly bullshit.

      The idea that Korra's romantic interest dressed her up is gross. Korra would never want that.

      I mean.. What? I can't even.. And that tumblr blog is also basically dumb and so contradicting and.. just bullshit, sorry for the language. This is too much stupidity for me.

      Seriously. It makes as much sense as saying that because Mako wordpuked at Korra in the Book 1 finale when she was three-quarters depowered , she should have resented him rather than running up and kissing him as soon as that was resolved. (Hell, I'd argue that Mako behaved more inappropriately by making it all about his feels; Asami kept things about Korra.) Double standards are amazing.

      But that silly girl has been desperately digging for anything that she can find (or contrive) in order to invalidate Korrasami (and invalidate Asami as a character) ever since the finale aired. (And Bryan's confirmation post tipped her even further over the edge.) To be honest, I'm not sure if I find it pathetic or infuriating. It's pathfuriating.

      And calling that blog "bullshit" is putting it politely. It's skybison shit on the flyover.

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      The stuff about Korra's "true character" is pretty hilarious. It's like the straw version of Korra that is whipped out mostly when someone wants to say she's the worst thing ever. Also using the fact that Korra snapped at Katara one time (& then immediately apologized for) to prove she's some kind of robot who always hates anyone trying to help her, because that is how a sane person behaves.

      I've formed a hypothesis based on my observations of Makorra holdouts: Most of them don't actually seem to like Korra all that much; and that individual is a prime example. But yet, if you asked her why she holds Korra in such low regard, I'm sure she'd indignantly deny it.

      I think my favorite thing about the blog is that half of the posts don't even contain a single quote from an actual Korrasami shipper.

      A basic rule is this: If it's not a reblog, they made it up. If it is a reblog and the original post sounds nutty, it's probably from a troll blog (although there's always the chance that it's something that would sound a lot less nutty if it hadn't been deliberately taken out of context).

      And if it's a reblog and the original post sounds completely reasonable? You're looking at the actual reason why that blog exists in the first place: to fling straw and stir the shit.  (Really, they should go into the adobe construction business.)

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    • Rest assured that by a week after the finale, she'd gone from "not that there's anything wrong with that" to sharing pray-away-the-gay crap on social media. (And pre-emptively playing victim before anyone even responded.)

      I would be willing to bet any amount of money that we're looking at a future ex-ex-gay here.

      [Skin color]

      I hadn't really noticed that P'Li isn't ghost pale like a lot of firebenders, but I guess I'd call her "olive." I've always seen "tan" used as kind of a general term for any skin darker than rice paper, which is the reason I found Korra Is Not Tan's fixation on it kind of...odd. I've never heard of the word "umber" before today.

      And I don't even know what prompted her to announce that she didn't understand how someone as strong and spiritual as the Avatar could develop PTSD in the first place;

      Likely a belief that PTSD is something only people deficient in strength of character get. Also those examples she mentioned, while sad, are not considered to be possible causes of PTSD anyway. You pretty much have to almost die or see someone almost die in real life to qualify. And even then, not everyone gets it, though the more you're exposed to, the more likely it is.

      Or to write Korra as a lifetime vegetarian and "pacifist when it comes to animals."

      Taking "turning Korra into Aang" to a new extreme. Which is a shame, because the Southern Tribe is an unusually good take on the concept of a warrior culture.

      Heh heh.

      Thank you.

      I think the last anime I watched was Sanzoku no Musume Ronja with subs, and that (for no particular reason) was the first anime I'd watched in years. I might be interested in Bleach; but as for Naruto, you're making me think that I dodged a bullet.

      Never heard of it. This is basically my reaction to what Naruto turned into. I can make no promises as to whether or not you'd like Bleach. Despite what I said earlier, it has its share of problems, & isn't even in my Top 5 animu.

      In light of her perpetual smug petulance and disingenuousness, I've become disinclined to give her any more of the benefit of the doubt than she's already gotten.

      I do imagine that I'm probably putting lipstick on a proverbial pig, but if the strongest version of an argument is defeated, the rest go with it.

      If one cut out Korrasami (which was between two actually compatible characters) and spliced in a fairly involved love story between Asami and this random airbender within the same timeframe as canon, that would leave little to no time to resolve Makorra (who really weren't that compatible)—at least, not in anything resembling a realistic fashion.

      But that's sort of like pointing out to a Zutara shipper that even if Aang was out of the picture, there'd still be no development for their ship. The response, in most cases, will simply be, "Nuh-uh, there's development everywhere!"

      Which makes the whole "Korrasami shipers are grasping at straws" accusation even funnier. As a side note, this is the most I've ever been called a "crack shipper" for defending the actual canon.

      (Of course, that person is an irrational 'shipper. I'm not sure that she'd care if they half-assed Korra's love story as long as Mako got what she thinks was owed to him.)

      I'm not editing what I just wrote just because I now see that you pointed it out already.

      Let she who has never spared certain jerkbenders throw the first stone at fix fics. (In my defense, it wasn't about 'shipping; it was about wanting them to suffer.)

      I actually have no idea what you're talking about right now.

      Ehh...most of the actual anarchists I've talked to have been less against government, per se, than hierarchy. I won't pretend that there isn't a certain faction whose ideas wouldn't work unless everyone was chaotic good; but even so.

      I don't think it really changes my opinion, since I find a world without hierarchies even more impossible. The only way it seems to work is if you redefine "hierarchy." Like even acknowledging that what we would call "crime" needs to be stopped establishes a hieararchy of non-criminals above criminals.

      Putting that latter in the mouth of a strawnarchist antagonist—antivillain or no—is...a bit screwy, to say the least.

      I don't really see it as an issue, since I'm fond of the Jerkass Has a Point Trope.

      I've formed a hypothesis based on my observations of Makorra holdouts: Most of them don't actually seem to like Korra all that much; and that individual is a prime example. But yet, if you asked her why she holds Korra in such low regard, I'm sure she'd indignantly deny it.

      I honestly don't think a lot of them like any of the characters, they just seem to want Mako & Korra together because...I dunno, aesthetics? "The Way It's Supposed To Be?" It sure as shit isn't because they had such a great history together.

      A basic rule is this: If it's not a reblog, they made it up. If it is a reblog and the original post sounds nutty, it's probably from a troll blog (although there's always the chance that it's something that would sound a lot less nutty if it hadn't been deliberately taken out of context). And if it's a reblog and the original post sounds completely reasonable? You're looking at the actual reason why that blog exists in the first place: to fling straw and stir the shit. (Really, they should go into the adobe construction business.)

      Yep. Even in the posts where I don't agree with the original author, the blog sees the need to go out of its way to take out any rationality or civility it might have & crank any dubious parts Up To 11 in terms of craziness & then go even further beyond.

      Pretty ironic, considering "Rule 1 of Korrasami:"

      Rule 1: Makorra shippers are the scourge of the earth

      See what I did up there? I just insulted Makorra. That is the first rule of Korrasami. ALWAYS INSULT MAKORRA. The idea is to make Makorra look as evil as possible. This is why whenever Mako and Korra are in a scene together, we plug our ears and spray our eyes with cologne to be spared from the atrocity that is Makorra. It doesn’t even have any proof. Who cares if they kissed? The sky wasn’t purple or anything…

      Anyway, it’s easy to make Makorra look bad: you just make grandiose claims about how terrible the ship is. Even better, provide prime examples of how it affects the real world adversely.

      Though I think their weirdest argument is this:

      you’re right it would be great because korra and asami are both straight and therefore that is queer representation it all makes sense now!!!

      Anyway, this is how you know you have a strong argument: You can't defend it without attacking a complete caricature of the opposition.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I would be willing to bet any amount of money that we're looking at a future ex-ex-gay here.

      Oh, she wasn't talking about herself; what she shared was some bullshit video about (from what I can tell) a queer activist who retreated into the closet after getting religion.

      I hadn't really noticed that P'Li isn't ghost pale like a lot of firebenders, but I guess I'd call her "olive." I've always seen "tan" used as kind of a general term for any skin darker than rice paper, which is the reason I found Korra Is Not Tan's fixation on it kind of...odd. I've never heard of the word "umber" before today.

      It's because "tan" implies "light," and Korra isn't light-skinned. (I mean, at least that fan writer doesn't palewash Korra in her bad art—yes, she also does bad art—but that just adds an extra layer of cognitive dissonance.)

      And umber is a neutral brown mineral pigment used for paint and stoneware clay. I figure that if some writers can talk about their pretty white girl characters' satiny porcelain skin, dark-skinned characters shouldn't be begrudged high-fire ceramic comparisons, either.

      Likely a belief that PTSD is something only people deficient in strength of character get. Also those examples she mentioned, while sad, are not considered to be possible causes of PTSD anyway. You pretty much have to almost die or see someone almost die in real life to qualify. And even then, not everyone gets it, though the more you're exposed to, the more likely it is.

      PTSD can also happen to survivors of sexual assault or domestic violence. It remains that...yeah, she was pretty much framing it as a sign of a weak character.

      Sad part is, she wasn't even the only one saying that in reference to Korra—either denying that she had developed PTSD, or using the fact that she had as evidence that she'd been "wimpified" or "tamed." (I'm not sure it's entirely coincidental that "tamed" is the same word that was being used by the rabid anti-Korrasami crowd.)

      Taking "turning Korra into Aang" to a new extreme. Which is a shame, because the Southern Tribe is an unusually good take on the concept of a warrior culture.

      Pretty much.

      Never heard of it. This is basically my reaction to what Naruto turned into. I can make no promises as to whether or not you'd like Bleach. Despite what I said earlier, it has its share of problems, & isn't even in my Top 5 animu.

      Sanzoku no Musume Ronja is from Ghibli, and it's based on a Swedish kids' book that I never quite quit loving. It's a lot less trite than that might make it sound. (Also, there's a harpy that looks like Ming-Hua.)

      I actually have no idea what you're talking about right now.

      I wrote a Red Lotus miniboss survival fic. The main purpose was to give them a collective existential crisis. (And burn the holy hell out of P'Li's face, leaving her half-blind and scarred with her light chakra on strike and hearing loss.)

      I don't think it really changes my opinion, since I find a world without hierarchies even more impossible. The only way it seems to work is if you redefine "hierarchy." Like even acknowledging that what we would call "crime" needs to be stopped establishes a hieararchy of non-criminals above criminals.

      From what I can tell, it refers to hierarchies in the sense of social class, manufactured scarcity, etc. rather than "the everything is permitted" doctrine that the Red Lotus seemed to be pushing for.

      I don't really see it as an issue, since I'm fond of the Jerkass Has a Point Trope.

      Ehh...if you give the jerkass a point, then pretty much completely bury that point under sheer force of jerkassery, I'd question whether it's really much of an example of the Jerkass Has A Point trope any longer. (Another one would be Bryke having to state off-screen that yes, nonbenders really are a marginalized group; and yes, that is being addressed in-universe. The marginalization of nonbenders was fairly clear to me on-screen; other fans, unfortunately, didn't pick up on it and thought that Amon was making a fuss over nothing rather than exploiting a legitimate concern. And as for it being addressed: they had to have Asami come out and say as much in "Remembrances" before everyone who did pick up on it was reassured on that front.)

      I honestly don't think a lot of them like any of the characters, they just seem to want Mako & Korra together because...I dunno, aesthetics? "The Way It's Supposed To Be?" It sure as shit isn't because they had such a great history together.

      I know a lot of them fawn over Mako and act like he can do no wrong. But my guess is that it's probably just the reverse of how they flanderize Korra, if that makes sense.

      Yep. Even in the posts where I don't agree with the original author, the blog sees the need to go out of its way to take out any rationality or civility it might have & crank any dubious parts Up To 11 in terms of craziness & then go even further beyond.

      Pretty ironic, considering "Rule 1 of Korrasami:"

      Rule 1: Makorra shippers are the scourge of the earth

      See what I did up there? I just insulted Makorra. That is the first rule of Korrasami. ALWAYS INSULT MAKORRA. The idea is to make Makorra look as evil as possible. This is why whenever Mako and Korra are in a scene together, we plug our ears and spray our eyes with cologne to be spared from the atrocity that is Makorra. It doesn’t even have any proof. Who cares if they kissed? The sky wasn’t purple or anything…

      Anyway, it’s easy to make Makorra look bad: you just make grandiose claims about how terrible the ship is. Even better, provide prime examples of how it affects the real world adversely.
      Though I think their weirdest argument is this:
      you’re right it would be great because korra and asami are both straight and therefore that is queer representation it all makes sense now!!!
      Anyway, this is how you know you have a strong argument: You can't defend it without attacking a complete caricature of the opposition.

      In their defense (much as it galls me to type that), it hadn't been officially confirmed that Korra and Asami were both canonically bi and in love with each other.

      Don't get me wrong: it was obvious enough that I read it as a queerbait at the time, and was only surprised at them being endgame because I didn't think that Nickelodeon would allow it.  Still, it hadn't been officially confirmed; and fans tend to presume that characters are straight until they're proven otherwise.  (Which is what that oh-so-controversial "hetero lens" comment meant.)

      Even so: it still really is hilarious that this person says "Korra and Asami are both straight" so authoritatively...and then, the very next day, canon says "lolnope; they're bi and they're in love."

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    • Oh, she wasn't talking about herself;

      I was already guessing She Doth Protest Too Much in the previous post. I find it very unlikely even the most insecure straight person would be that fixated on proving they're Totally Not Gay. That she gravitated towards some Pray the Gay Away nonsense soon after only fuels my speculation.

      It's because "tan" implies "light," and Korra isn't light-skinned. (I mean, at least that fan writer doesn't palewash Korra in her bad art—yes, she also does bad art—but that just adds an extra layer of cognitive dissonance.)

      That's what they think, but it can describe a pretty broad range of colors.

      I don't remember which weirdo we're talking about, so I don't remember if I've seen it or not, though I guess I wouldn't be one to judge anyway.

      And umber is a neutral brown mineral pigment used for paint and stoneware clay. I figure that if some writers can talk about their pretty white girl characters' satiny porcelain skin, dark-skinned characters shouldn't be begrudged high-fire ceramic comparisons, either.

      I've always favored "bronze," though hopefully I'll remember to add this to my lexicon.

      [PTSD stuff]

      Ditto all of that.

      Sanzoku no Musume Ronja is from Ghibli, and it's based on a Swedish kids' book that I never quite quit loving. It's a lot less trite than that might make it sound. (Also, there's a harpy that looks like Ming-Hua.)

      No, that actually sounds interesting, but Ghibli in general is filled with things I say I should someday watch & then I never watch them.

      I wrote a Red Lotus miniboss survival fic. The main purpose was to give them a collective existential crisis. (And burn the holy hell out of P'Li's face, leaving her half-blind and scarred with her light chakra on strike and hearing loss.)

      Harsh.

      From what I can tell, it refers to hierarchies in the sense of social class, manufactured scarcity, etc. rather than "the everything is permitted" doctrine that the Red Lotus seemed to be pushing for.

      I guess what I would say is that the Red Lotus's ideas are more disturbing but make more sense, while the ideas of most "real world anarchists" are theoretically admirable but I think they're at best overly simplistic & at worst completely divorced from reality.

      Ehh...if you give the jerkass a point, then pretty much completely bury that point under sheer force of jerkassery, I'd question whether it's really much of an example of the Jerkass Has A Point trope any longer.

      I'm totally comfortable blaming the fans on this. It seems to be a pretty recurring pattern that a lot of people can't seem to grasp any subtlety to the villains. If it were left wing extremism that was on the rise, I imagine we'd see the reactions between Kuvira & Amon flipped.

      Though since I have tried to continue the gray villains trend, I do have to wonder if I'm making the same mistakes.

      In their defense (much as it galls me to type that), it hadn't been officially confirmed that Korra and Asami were both canonically bi and in love with each other.

      True, I did neglect that the last post was before the finale, but that just makes it even funnier to me. Being wrong is forgivable, being so incredibly, egregiously, aggressively wrong & then going into radio silence after the rug is pulled out from under you is just lame. I would also say that most of the fault I'm finding with them would still persist, since it's not so much their doubt that's the issue, but the absolute devotion to strawmanning. Plus, I feel like a lot of this probably became the basis for later arguments that persist to this day.

      Don't get me wrong: it was obvious enough that I read it as a queerbait at the time, and was only surprised at them being endgame because I didn't think that Nickelodeon would allow it.

      You & I both.

      Still, it hadn't been officially confirmed; and fans tend to presume that characters are straight until they're proven otherwise. Which is what that oh-so-controversial "hetero lens" comment meant.)

      I would go as far as to say the "hetero lens" includes maintaining they're straight even after it's proven that they're not. Sure, most denialists technically acknowledge their bisexual status, but since they maintain that it didn't actually happen until the last couple minutes, the unspoken (& sometimes directly spoken) claim is that "it doesn't really count."

      Also, if anyone reading this didn't catch it, I was quite dismissive of the Wuko theory, so it's not the case that I'm saying skepticism of gay pairings is not allowed. I just think it's very important to understand the difference between skepticism & denialism.

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    • I was already guessing She Doth Protest Too Much in the previous post. I find it very unlikely even the most insecure straight person would be that fixated on proving they're Totally Not Gay. That she gravitated towards some Pray the Gay Away nonsense soon after only fuels my speculation.
      I'm just kind of over arguing that rabid homophobes/biphobes are internalizing; it edges a little too close to the sort of blame-shifting that clueless would-be allies do for my liking. (You know, like where someone claims that the Phelps cult or politicians who push homophobic legislation must be internalizing?)

      But then again: she did also put a hell of a lot of effort into arguing that she's not a biphobe. And that turned out to be a lie.

      That's what they think, but it can describe a pretty broad range of colors.
      Quite a few of those seem to be from design sites; and what designers decide to call a color...doesn't always fit the usual definition. I speak partly from having (casually) studied design, and partly on account of having seen a a sort of rose-gold color sold as "octarine" before. (Octarine is supposed to be an impossible color, mind you; the comparison, however, has never been to anything that could be mistaken for rose-gold.)
      I don't remember which weirdo we're talking about, so I don't remember if I've seen it or not, though I guess I wouldn't be one to judge anyway.
      Fan writer who gushes about how much she loves Korra (no homo), but can't stand that she's a bisexual trauma survivor from a culture of hunters. Not the same person with the sillyass idea regarding Asami and an Opal knockoff airbender girl (although both of them took the finale very badly). Hope that clarifies things.

      Let the record state that the only reason that I'm not just using their screen names is that they both seem the sort to Google themselves. I don't want them coming over here and harassing me or otherwise causing drama.

      Harsh.
      At least she survived in my fic. And, conversely: I don't think an eye, some of her hearing, her special technique, and her looks are too much to take in exchange for her getting spared by the adaptation.
      I guess what I would say is that the Red Lotus's ideas are more disturbing but make more sense, while the ideas of most "real world anarchists" are theoretically admirable but I think they're at best overly simplistic & at worst completely divorced from reality.
      I'm not sure this is really the place to be discussing this. However, while I'm pretty damn far removed from being a Rousseauist: our current system is inherently broken and actively failing at this point, positive change is actively being held back on multiple fronts for petty reasons, and the sort of people who cast doubt on the viability of anarchism in the first place are in control. (Hell, I don't even mean the orange thing; I mean that the sort of people the orange thing surrounds himself with have never been powerless.) And, as people more eloquent than myself have explained: we'll need to move away from authoritarianism in order to solve any of that.
      I'm totally comfortable blaming the fans on this. It seems to be a pretty recurring pattern that a lot of people can't seem to grasp any subtlety to the villains. If it were left wing extremism that was on the rise, I imagine we'd see the reactions between Kuvira & Amon flipped.
      Doubt it. First of all, what constitutes "left-wing extremism" is, to put it mildly, debatable. (See: that fiasco in that one thread; I will not say more than that.) Secondly: not even authoritarians tend to admit to liking other authoritarians, regardless of what wing they're on.
      Though since I have tried to continue the gray villains trend, I do have to wonder if I'm making the same mistakes.
      And meanwhile, here I am trying to give my villain a redeeming trait.
      True, I did neglect that the last post was before the finale, but that just makes it even funnier to me. Being wrong is forgivable, being so incredibly, egregiously, aggressively wrong & then going into radio silence after the rug is pulled out from under you is just lame. I would also say that most of the fault I'm finding with them would still persist, since it's not so much their doubt that's the issue, but the absolute devotion to strawmanning. Plus, I feel like a lot of this probably became the basis for later arguments that persist to this day.
      Personally? I'd have a difficult time deciding which is more pathetic: the bullshit from Gems of Korrasami, or the guy who posted this drivel...
      A Complete Blithering Ignoramus wrote:
      I just love how people can ship two straight/heterosexual characters, who would never be sexually attracted to each other to begin with (korra and Asami) and get offended when people ship homosexual characters with straight characters. To those people I say, shut the fuck up and stop getting upset cause you don’t agree with something and do it your fucking self. You are no better than them. The difference? They aren’t hurting anyone for their own beliefs.
      ...nearly a week after the finale.
      I would go as far as to say the "hetero lens" includes maintaining they're straight even after it's proven that they're not. Sure, most denialists technically acknowledge their bisexual status, but since they maintain that it didn't actually happen until the last couple minutes, the unspoken (& sometimes directly spoken) claim is that "it doesn't really count."
      And then, there's when someone (almost invariably a Makorrian) tries to argue that the only biphobia or erasure from the fandom is the fault of "people who deny that Korra ever loved Mako." (Yes, I've seen that happen.)
      Also, if anyone reading this didn't catch it, I was quite dismissive of the Wuko theory, so it's not the case that I'm saying skepticism of gay pairings is not allowed. I just think it's very important to understand the difference between skepticism & denialism.
      Hell, I thought the Asami/airbender girl thing was awful. And I tend not to like Korra/OC, regardless of the OC's gender. And I'm still baffled that there are people out there who 'ship Korvira.
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    • I'm just kind of over arguing that rabid homophobes/biphobes are internalizing; it edges a little too close to the sort of blame-shifting that clueless would-be allies do for my liking. (You know, like where someone claims that the Phelps cult or politicians who push homophobic legislation must be internalizing?)

      I don't like the overuse of the argument either, but I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think there are plenty of explanations for Phelps's behavior that don't rely on the basically 0 evidence assertion that he was secretly gay. But this person is giving off a whole bunch of red flags I've seen from other self-identified "ex-gays."

      Quite a few of those seem to be from design sites; and what designers decide to call a color...doesn't always fit the usual definition.

      I don't know if I would defend all of these, but they make my point that when someone says "tan," they could mean a lot of different things.

      Fan writer who gushes about how much she loves Korra (no homo), but can't stand that she's a bisexual trauma survivor from a culture of hunters. Not the same person with the sillyass idea regarding Asami and an Opal knockoff airbender girl (although both of them took the finale very badly). Hope that clarifies things.

      I think I'm thinking of a 3rd person? The one on the TV Tropes thread.

      Let the record state that the only reason that I'm not just using their screen names is that they both seem the sort to Google themselves.

      I do that sometimes. My screen name assures I mostly get Final Fantasy stuff, though sometimes I see some good drama.

      At least she survived in my fic. And, conversely: I don't think an eye, some of her hearing, her special technique, and her looks are too much to take in exchange for her getting spared by the adaptation.

      I dunno, getting your head blown off sounds like less of a hassle.

      I'm not sure this is really the place to be discussing this.

      Probably not to go that far in depth, no. My political views are pretty easily summed up, just look at something like the Justice Democrats.

      Doubt it. First of all, what constitutes "left-wing extremism" is, to put it mildly, debatable. (See: that fiasco in that one thread; I will not say more than that.) Secondly: not even authoritarians tend to admit to liking other authoritarians, regardless of what wing they're on.

      Well, I am comfortable calling the kinds of people who say that Amon or Zaheer did nothing wrong "left wing extremists." But although I've seen apologists for everyone from Amon to Hou Ting, I rarely, if ever, see someone who apologizes for more than 1 villain. To me, this suggests they're perfectly fine sympathizing with extremists (in the sense that I am abusing that term), but only those that closely match their own views.

      Of course, the problem here is that nobody quite as closely aligns with any real world philosophy as much as Kuvira does with fascism. Amon is a pretty obvious communism metaphor, but only loosely, & Zaheer's group has more in common with like super edgelord libertarians than anything else.

      Though it's debatable how much that matters, since many of Kuvira's apologists refuse to acknowledge that she's a fascist, suggesting you don't have to actually consciously acknowledge the parallels in order to sympathize with the ideology.

      But suffice it to say, if the tankies don't sympathize with Amon, I imagine it's because he's not Stalin enough, because it sur