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  • What happened to Korra when she had the chance to end this whole thing up?? I mean, I didn't like the fact she attacked Kuvira.....She could handle this mess otherwise!!!

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    • I don't get it at all, yes I get that they are not going to kill off the main antagonist halve way into the season but Korra can matelband she could've just used the rings around Kuvira's neck to choke her to death and yes Kuvira could free herself I get that but I don't get why Korra didn't use the matel pieces on Kuvira's suit to attack her. 

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    • If it was strictly a physical confrontation, Korra could have won no problem, but it wasnt, it was a phycological duel, and Korra is still injured in that regard. Wounds of the mind remain long after the body is healed

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    • yeah, Korra really struck me as weak in this episode, even the airbending she did in her brief moment in the Avatar State was really less impressive than what Jinora and Opal came up with. It's very likely she'll be bummed out over what happened in the next episode and I really don't want to sit through much more recovery process.

      We could see her defeat coming miles away because of the overall plot, but I really didn't think it would be because of this issue being brought back. I think they'll try to explain it with some new thing like "this was not the most balanced thing to do so my inner self fought me back" or something.

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    • WinstonMacdonald wrote:
      I don't get it at all, yes I get that they are not going to kill off the main antagonist halve way into the season but Korra can matelband she could've just used the rings around Kuvira's neck to choke her to death and yes Kuvira could free herself I get that but I don't get why Korra didn't use the matel pieces on Kuvira's suit to attack her. 

      easiest non fatal way would be to constrict her shoulder plates, get up close clap down on her ears to take away ballance then take away her bending.

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    • It was kind of silly how weak she was in the non-avatar state. I find it very stupid when the villain can only lose mid to end season. Aang beat his villains multiple times throught the season and it wasn't lame.

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    • Perhaps that Dark Korra could be Vaatu trying to gain a return, and that the whole premice is to have Korra be able to balance the powers of both Raava and Vaatu.

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    • I dislike how they constantly make Korra look like she's acheived inner strength only to have her get wrecked by an enemy. Why go through the whole emotional mumbo-jumbo of "You can metalbend the poison out yourself Korra, let go of the past" and then have her get destroyed by Kuvira?

      It seems to me they just keep milking Korra supposed insecurities and in the end, it almost makes it look like she never develops as a character. I thought she was done seeing the Avatar state hallucinations so when it happened this episode, it came as a complete surprise. If they somehow spin this into something substantial, I'm all for it, but as I've said, Korra just keeps going on this roller coaster where she gets all this inner knowledge, making you think she's improved but then, she fails.

      The spirit vines look like they'll be interesting though.

      EDIT: @Shirona, that's an interesting theory but on the Q&A, the creators said that Vaatu is too weak to be exerting his influence on the Avatar. In 10000 years though, he'll definitely be a problem for the Avatar.

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    • Fireshadowz wrote:
      It was kind of silly how weak she was in the non-avatar state. I find it very stupid when the villain can only lose mid to end season. Aang beat his villains multiple times throught the season and it wasn't lame.

      You can't compare it to the original series, the pacing is different. You can't build up so much in LoK. Moreover, Aang actually rarely defeated his opponents. Throughout Book 1, Team Avatar was constantly fleeing from Zuko and Zhao. Book 2 was fleeing from Azula. Apart from these, there were one-episode antagonists and the story was resolved quickly. And it wasn't always Aang who saved the day. The only real fight was vs Ozai, while Korra had to beat a villain each book.

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    • -Darjeeling- wrote:
      Fireshadowz wrote:
      It was kind of silly how weak she was in the non-avatar state. I find it very stupid when the villain can only lose mid to end season. Aang beat his villains multiple times throught the season and it wasn't lame.
      You can't compare it to the original series, the pacing is different. You can't build up so much in LoK. Moreover, Aang actually rarely defeated his opponents. Throughout Book 1, Team Avatar was constantly fleeing from Zuko and Zhao. Book 2 was fleeing from Azula. Apart from these, there were one-episode antagonists and the story was resolved quickly. And it wasn't always Aang who saved the day. The only real fight was vs Ozai, while Korra had to beat a villain each book.

      Aang stopped a powerful lava flow with Airbending. Aang >Current Korra

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    • Dondoit wrote:

      Aang stopped a powerful lava flow with Airbending. Aang >Current Korra

      And Korra could already bend three element at the age of four. And Korra learned metalbending. They are just different. Can we just stop comparing?

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    • I think this Korra is much weaker not only after the battle with Zaheer, but also her avatar state when Unalaq severed Korra from the past 10,000 years of avatars. We must remember that Aang was severed from the avatar state, when Azula struck him with lightning and killing him. It wasnt until the battle with Ozai, that his back hit the piece of rock that his avatar state reactivated and evened the odds. We have to see what the final episode has in store.

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    • Aang beat Azula and Zuko multiple times throught the series. Yes you can compare them because the same creators use a similar style when making this show.

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    • Dragonboy6491 wrote:
      I dislike how they constantly make Korra look like she's acheived inner strength only to have her get wrecked by an enemy. Why go through the whole emotional mumbo-jumbo of "You can metalbend the poison out yourself Korra, let go of the past" and then have her get destroyed by Kuvira?

      It seems to me they just keep milking Korra supposed insecurities and in the end, it almost makes it look like she never develops as a character. I thought she was done seeing the Avatar state hallucinations so when it happened this episode, it came as a complete surprise. If they somehow spin this into something substantial, I'm all for it, but as I've said, Korra just keeps going on this roller coaster where she gets all this inner knowledge, making you think she's improved but then, she fails.

      The spirit vines look like they'll be interesting though.

      EDIT: @Shirona, that's an interesting theory but on the Q&A, the creators said that Vaatu is too weak to be exerting his influence on the Avatar. In 10000 years though, he'll definitely be a problem for the Avatar.

      Exactly why I did not like this episode.

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    • Dondoit wrote:
      -Darjeeling- wrote:
      Fireshadowz wrote:
      It was kind of silly how weak she was in the non-avatar state. I find it very stupid when the villain can only lose mid to end season. Aang beat his villains multiple times throught the season and it wasn't lame.
      You can't compare it to the original series, the pacing is different. You can't build up so much in LoK. Moreover, Aang actually rarely defeated his opponents. Throughout Book 1, Team Avatar was constantly fleeing from Zuko and Zhao. Book 2 was fleeing from Azula. Apart from these, there were one-episode antagonists and the story was resolved quickly. And it wasn't always Aang who saved the day. The only real fight was vs Ozai, while Korra had to beat a villain each book.
      Aang stopped a powerful lava flow with Airbending. Aang >Current Korra

      A volcano doesn't play mind games, and Korra had just started to regain her composure, Korra had lost before either of them started bending, why? Because of Kuvira's statements about Bolin, Korra being rusty, and telling her army not to interfere. All that combined with her already weakened self  confidence ment that many of her internal "braces" where weakened, the pressure of Zaofu meant her nerves had no where to go, and all it took was one solid hit to beat her, just like how Old Team Avatar took down the Firenation Drill. Kuvira uses a popular tactic employed by competetors in any competition, the only reasons why it is working on her now more so than Tanno employed it, are because the stakes are higher, and she was already unsure of herself, the words of a certain blind earthbender resinate here, Korra has been trying to find different angles to dealing with Kuvira but "There's no different angle, no clever solution, no trickety-trick that's going to move that rock. You've got to face it head on." in this case that rock is Kuvira, in this situation that is what decided the battle, not bending ability.

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    • Dragonboy6491 wrote:
      I dislike how they constantly make Korra look like she's acheived inner strength only to have her get wrecked by an enemy. Why go through the whole emotional mumbo-jumbo of "You can metalbend the poison out yourself Korra, let go of the past" and then have her get destroyed by Kuvira?

      It seems to me they just keep milking Korra supposed insecurities and in the end, it almost makes it look like she never develops as a character. I thought she was done seeing the Avatar state hallucinations so when it happened this episode, it came as a complete surprise. If they somehow spin this into something substantial, I'm all for it, but as I've said, Korra just keeps going on this roller coaster where she gets all this inner knowledge, making you think she's improved but then, she fails.

      The spirit vines look like they'll be interesting though.


      Her getting rid of the poison gave her back her confidence to return back to her friends and actually fight. It did allow some progress but not enough. I reckon seeing herself in the avatar state will become something more substantial  that she will have to unlock to reunite her with Raava and be able to use the avatar state. 


      People say korra is too weak and by the last season you do expect the protagonist to be able to kick ass, but maybe kuvira is just too daym strong. 

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    • Kuvira's trash talk was lame, it wouldn't intimidate the lion in "The Wizard of Oz."

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    • Is it that Korra is weak? Or is Kuvira just really strong? Besides, it's mid-season and Kuvira is the Big Bad; of course she isn't going to get beat now

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    • Fireshadowz wrote:
      Aang beat Azula and Zuko multiple times throught the series. Yes you can compare them because the same creators use a similar style when making this show.

      Difference; Zuko and Azula were not at the top; Kuvira is; if Korra beat Kuvira now, it would mean the end of the story

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    • Jack92 wrote:
      Dragonboy6491 wrote:
      I dislike how they constantly make Korra look like she's acheived inner strength only to have her get wrecked by an enemy. Why go through the whole emotional mumbo-jumbo of "You can metalbend the poison out yourself Korra, let go of the past" and then have her get destroyed by Kuvira?

      It seems to me they just keep milking Korra supposed insecurities and in the end, it almost makes it look like she never develops as a character. I thought she was done seeing the Avatar state hallucinations so when it happened this episode, it came as a complete surprise. If they somehow spin this into something substantial, I'm all for it, but as I've said, Korra just keeps going on this roller coaster where she gets all this inner knowledge, making you think she's improved but then, she fails.

      The spirit vines look like they'll be interesting though.


      Her getting rid of the poison gave her back her confidence to return back to her friends and actually fight. It did allow some progress but not enough. I reckon seeing herself in the avatar state will become something more substantial  that she will have to unlock to reunite her with Raava and be able to use the avatar state. 


      People say korra is too weak and by the last season you do expect the protagonist to be able to kick ass, but maybe kuvira is just too daym strong. 


      Strength has little to do with it, Kuvira is a master manipulator, she essentially won before the first blow, the fight merely secured her victory. Kuvira could be a fairly weak metalbender, tallented as she may be, and we wouldn't know the difference, she has created the illusion that she is unstoppable in a fair fight, yet the only person we have seen her fight with any formal training is Korra, and she tore down her self confidence before the first blow. As far as bending antagonists go, Kuvira could be the weakest bender thats a main antagonist thus far. It wasn't strength she used to defeat Korra, in a way she didn't defeat Korra, she manipulated her into defeating herself.

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    • Fireshadowz wrote:
      Aang beat Azula and Zuko multiple times throught the series. Yes you can compare them because the same creators use a similar style when making this show.

      You really think those times when Aang fought together with his friends until they grabbed their stuff and got away can be compared to Korra now? Aang pretty much helped the locals in Book 1, it didn't have anything to do with defeating the big bad guy Zuko and those one-episode villains were rather impersonal threats. Did Zuko or Azula after encountering Aang ever look as bad as Korra now? They just failed to capture the Avatar. We don't have these "multiple times" because a season with 12-14 episodes needs a different approach.

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    • QueenCeline wrote: Is it that Korra is weak? Or is Kuvira just really strong? Besides, it's mid-season and Kuvira is the Big Bad; of course she isn't going to get beat now

      Short Answer: Yes.

      Long Answer: Korra's whole character focuses on her strength of both body & personality. She is not someone who can get away with being a wimp, like Opal, who actually took a level in badass this season. Perhaps she stole it from Korra.

      Similarly, Kuvira has no bloody excuse to be able to mop the floor with the Avatar, though I suppose I can accept that Korra was still weak from the poison & being out of commission for so long. I'm just glad they didn't pull some BS that would allow her to defeat the Avatar State.

      Also, just because Kuvira can't be defeated right now, doesn't mean she has to be some kind of untouchable terminator thing. Also, she could have been defeated, & replaced with a surprise antagonist. For example, Zhu Li, if they're really planning to go the route of making her a villain.

      Mind you, this is all in answer to your question, which presumes Korra being weak. I'd like to think that she isn't.

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    • Even if Korra got the poison out she's still weak from being 3 years weak. I mean just because she gets out the poison she won't be instantly beating of the strongest benders in the world when a week ago she couldn't fight some random thieves.

      It was clear that Korra would not be able to win and not for plot reasons(taking down the main villain mid season). Infact I'm shocked that she actually one-shot Kuvira in the avatar state, I thought she wouldn't be able to pull that.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      QueenCeline wrote: Is it that Korra is weak? Or is Kuvira just really strong? Besides, it's mid-season and Kuvira is the Big Bad; of course she isn't going to get beat now

      Short Answer: Yes.

      Long Answer: Korra's whole character focuses on her strength of both body & personality. She is not someone who can get away with being a wimp, like Opal, who actually took a level in badass this season. Perhaps she stole it from Korra.

      Similarly, Kuvira has no bloody excuse to be able to mop the floor with the Avatar, though I suppose I can accept that Korra was still weak from the poison & being out of commission for so long. I'm just glad they didn't pull some BS that would allow her to defeat the Avatar State.

      Also, just because Kuvira can't be defeated right now, doesn't mean she has to be some kind of untouchable terminator thing. Also, she could have been defeated, & replaced with a surprise antagonist. For example, Zhu Li, if they're really planning to go the route of making her a villain.

      Mind you, this is all in answer to your question, which presumes Korra being weak. I'd like to think that she isn't.

      Kuvira's "strength" lies not in her bending but in her ability to create illusions that can stop people from resisting, those who see through the illusion she sends away as  quickly as possible before they break it to others, she made Korra believe that she was still weak, so she fought poorly.

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    • What exactly are these illusions? If someone was constantly saying you're weak in real life, you would start losing faith in yourself. It doesn't require some kind of "magic". Kuvira is just persuasive.

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    • Strength has little to do with it, Kuvira is a master manipulator, she essentially won before the first blow, the fight merely secured her victory. Kuvira could be a fairly weak metalbender, tallented as she may be, and we wouldn't know the difference, she has created the illusion that she is unstoppable in a fair fight, yet the only person we have seen her fight with any formal training is Korra, and she tore down her self confidence before the first blow. As far as bending antagonists go, Kuvira could be the weakest bender thats a main antagonist thus far. It wasn't strength she used to defeat Korra, in a way she didn't defeat Korra, she manipulated her into defeating herself.

      Bull on the part where you say she's the weakest bending antagonist. Kuvira took on over 20 earthbending bandits and won. Kuvira's obvioulsy a hard match for Korra, not to mention Korra was giving it her all. Zaheer was definitely the weakest antagonist in terms of bending due to the fact that he had just aquired it, while Kuvira has spent her entire life learning her's. Kuvira defeated Korra physically, but there's something wrong with Korra still, so I don't think Korra's relapse back into seeing her Avatar self has anything to do with the fight with Kuvira. 

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    • I could tell from the begging of the fight she looked uncornodinated and her bending was pathetic espically her fire bending seriosly its like no one ever thinks to use fire in a stream instead of just shooting small blasts that are easily dodged. 

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    • She got rocked harder than Patterson vs Johansson. From 6:20 onward it's just plan butchering. Though admittedly I should have known this was going to happen. She needs to get her head right or else she's going to lose every fight.

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    • QueenCeline wrote:
      Fireshadowz wrote:
      Aang beat Azula and Zuko multiple times throught the series. Yes you can compare them because the same creators use a similar style when making this show.
      Difference; Zuko and Azula were not at the top; Kuvira is; if Korra beat Kuvira now, it would mean the end of the story



      Actually Azula was at the top, the fire nation was much more powerfull than any other nation

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    • Korra is psychologically weak and that was obvious since the first season. Overall, she simply doesn't have the spark of Kyoshi, Roku, or Aang when they were in their prime. This is the reason she can't harness her avatar state properly. But even though this may not be agreeable, then there's an even stronger reason: She lost her connection to the past avatars. She has no guidance. And since she's not a spiritual person to begin with so that she can regain her inner balance, I say she's going to get into a lot of trouble. Hard to say how this season will unfold...  

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    • Cooldude527 wrote:
      QueenCeline wrote:
      Fireshadowz wrote:
      Aang beat Azula and Zuko multiple times throught the series. Yes you can compare them because the same creators use a similar style when making this show.
      Difference; Zuko and Azula were not at the top; Kuvira is; if Korra beat Kuvira now, it would mean the end of the story


      Actually Azula was at the top, the fire nation was much more powerfull than any other nation

      Ozai was at the top; he was the person pulling the strings, is what I'm saying

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    • WampaLumpa wrote:
      Korra is psychologically weak and that was obvious since the first season. Overall, she simply doesn't have the spark of Kyoshi, Roku, or Aang when they were in their prime. This is the reason she can't harness her avatar state properly. But even though this may not be agreeable, then there's an even stronger reason: She lost her connection to the past avatars. She has no guidance. And since she's not a spiritual person to begin with so that she can regain her inner balance, I say she's going to get into a lot of trouble. Hard to say how this season will unfold...  

      No, she could access her Avatar state fine in the fight. The problem was that Korra is still going through her PTASD and the act of seeing old Avatar state self in Kuvira just caused her to lose composure. Even during the Zaheer fight, Korra was doing a decent job considering all the poison in her system so I'm not quite certain of the connection side.

      Kuvira did use metalbending on Korra, but Korra never even tried to use metalbending against Kuvira. It was just a straight up brawl, going back the movements of the players. 

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    • One thing's for sure. It'll take seven more episodes before Korra's ready to defeat Kuvira for good.

      Until then, she'll end up having hallucinations even without the poison.

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    • The avatar state appeared weaker look at the gust of wind she hit kuvira with compared to the one opal used korra should really consider carring water around with her she really only ever has access to three elements

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    • Madz1101 wrote:
      I think this Korra is much weaker not only after the battle with Zaheer, but also her avatar state when Unalaq severed Korra from the past 10,000 years of avatars. We must remember that Aang was severed from the avatar state, when Azula struck him with lightning and killing him. It wasnt until the battle with Ozai, that his back hit the piece of rock that his avatar state reactivated and evened the odds. We have to see what the final episode has in store.

      We don't really know the extent of the damage to the link between the previous lives, but the Avatar State was always described as channeling the combined knowledge and power of all previous avatars. If the connections were truly gone, Avatar State would just be Korra's knowledge and power. When she fought Zaheer, we were seeing comparable bending to Aang's Avatar State in terms of power.


      No, she could access her Avatar state fine in the fight. The problem was that Korra is still going through her PTASD and the act of seeing old Avatar state self in Kuvira just caused her to lose composure. Even during the Zaheer fight, Korra was doing a decent job considering all the poison in her system so I'm not quite certain of the connection side.

      Kuvira did use metalbending on Korra, but Korra never even tried to use metalbending against Kuvira. It was just a straight up brawl, going back the movements of the players. 

      Kuvira is a better metalbender than Korra. Korra barely knows how to do it, with only a little bit of training or practice with in the art. She could try to trade with Kuvira in metalbending, but Kuvira would probably just win the exchange. Using different elements for offense is a better idea. However, Korra just fired away with low powered potshots and Kuvira dodged most of them. Kuvira also used some tricks to control the tempo of the battle and keep Korra off balance. Maybe Korra was approaching this like a brawl, but Kuvira was fighting as a skilled duelist. Barring the brief Avatar State, Kuvira wiped the floor with Korra from start to finish.

      I'm not saying Kuvira is the best bender in the world, or even that she's particularly exceptional, but Korra fought this duel stupidly, both how she actually fought in it...and the fact that she even fought it in the first place. How everyone opposing Kuvira on Zaofu's side handled the entire situation; Su's posturing before Kuvira even marched on the city and the lack of diplomacy (if even for show), the assassination attempt, Korra accepting to fight this duel, and particularly her losing, just further legitimizes Kuvira's military actions and position. Kuvira may be (debatably) in the wrong but, her opponents are really making her look good by comparison.

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    • Aang was on pair with Ozai it was reluctance to kill that allowed Ozai to gain the upper hand

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    • @Weltall8000: I think they set it up for a fight so that Kuvira would have that victory she needed to begin some plan to take over RC (seems to be the common consensus for the next target). That and it fits with the series (fights > intrique or tactics). Not talking about just action, as action can be many different things beyond two people throwing rocks at each other.

      Plus, I get the feeling that if Korra was in her "prime" she wouldn't have even tried that tactic. I would have prefered a more talkative or negotiating Korra but we just don't have the time for that anymore. Maybe the comics will force a situation that Korra cannot solve through force?

      The book does scream metalbending to me, and Korra does know metalbending, so I expect her to use more of it. In addition to the other elements. Even if airbending is so much better in the Avatar state than other elements.

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    • I'm talking about this in the "in universe" context. What they're doing in terms of story structure (having a mid series battle to setup for the rising action to the ultimate climax), isn't really what I'm talking about.


      I have to believe Korra would normally have performed better, if nothing else, in terms of her fundamentals, she can hit bigger and faster than this. I've never really considered Korra to be a particularly creative fighter however, she's always been more of the head on attack variety.

      I agree, I would have liked to see Korra play it smarter and talk it out. I'd have been happy if she didn't even fight here. But she did. And that was most likely a big mistake on her part. Now she has to recover from it, meanwhile Kuvira gets to move forward with impunity and some serious street cred (she schooled the Avatar in a one on one duel, that even utilized the Avatar State, after an assassination attempt during a truce, and with the Avatar's friends intervening). While I'm still a big fan of the show, I'm increasingly frustrated with how, frankly, stupid Korra is. I really appreciate the characters who are more level headed and insightful. Korra's charm is really wearing off and it's kind of like she really needs to start maturing. Most likely she's ultimately going to win in the end, but without her really changing (finally), it will just feel deus ex machina if she's the one to save the day.


      Indeed, Korra does know metalbending...but she's not revealed to be great at it yet, from anything shown. It would be great if she improves. I can't really agree with that, all the elements rock in Avatar State. For instance, look at what Aang did to the Fire Navy at the North Pole at the end of Book 1 with water.

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    • Dragonboy6491 wrote:
      I dislike how they constantly make Korra look like she's acheived inner strength only to have her get wrecked by an enemy. Why go through the whole emotional mumbo-jumbo of "You can metalbend the poison out yourself Korra, let go of the past" and then have her get destroyed by Kuvira?

      It seems to me they just keep milking Korra supposed insecurities and in the end, it almost makes it look like she never develops as a character. I thought she was done seeing the Avatar state hallucinations so when it happened this episode, it came as a complete surprise. If they somehow spin this into something substantial, I'm all for it, but as I've said, Korra just keeps going on this roller coaster where she gets all this inner knowledge, making you think she's improved but then, she fails.

      The spirit vines look like they'll be interesting though.

      EDIT: @Shirona, that's an interesting theory but on the Q&A, the creators said that Vaatu is too weak to be exerting his influence on the Avatar. In 10000 years though, he'll definitely be a problem for the Avatar.

      Yeah, I completely agree. Ever since this whole recovery saga and even some time before that, Korra's likability as a character has just been going down for me. I understand that Korra had suffered major psychological damage and that her recovery was needed to be shown to develop her character and the story, but at the same time, I also feel like this emotional mumbo-jumbo is getting old and boring. To be honest, I think it's just bad writing. Basically, the writers didn't want Korra to defeat Kuvira already, which she easily could have, but wanted to prolong the story for several more episodes. The only way they could think of doing that was by bringing back Korra's psychological problems. Even if there is some justifiable and logical explanation for it, it's not gonna roll with me; I'm just too done with Korra being a lousy Avatar... 

      This may sound silly but I wish Milo could somehow take over as Avatar. He's just so badass XD. Did you see how he entered the battlefield like a fricking boss, shooting one gust of air after another and then beating his chest? Oh yeah, and let's not forget his self-portrait!!! Hahahaha, that was too good.  

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    • I don't think it have an impact on the battle but Korra lacked access to water. Also what happened to all the metal bands and where do all the metal bands come from?

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    • Still, two more elements than Kuvira had access to.

      Kuvira (and many of those in her army) wears metal on her uniform, which she uses as weapons.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Still, two more elements than Kuvira had access to.

      Kuvira (and many of those in her army) wears metal on her uniform, which she uses as weapons.

      Yes that, but the quantity. How does she reload?

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    • She didn't have to. Kuvira really didn't throw many at Korra in their fight, maybe five or so and she has some on her shoulders, collar, down the back, etc. plenty for this fight.

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    • She had enough to take on 20 bandits earlier in the series, and yea she only through a couple at Korra even though she could used way more. 

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    • Thought they might have had Kuvira's army intervene and save her from Korra in the Avatar State...or even for her soldiers to just stand between Kuvira and Korra to force her not to kill all them.

      Then she looked up and for a split second I thought they were pulling some freak twist like, Kuvira's actually in the Avatar State as well...what the hell?

      Then it was how it was.


      Great episode. I've had so many complaints about the ones that came before but this one - I have none.

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    • The amount of Aang fanboys is too damn high. Why won't you rewatch your precious Atla and see just how many times Aang had to be bailed out by someone. 

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    • The amount of aang fanboys has always been high. They are particularly hilarious when they claim stupid s*** overestimating TLA characters. I've even heard people say Toph could have beaten Kuvira and her entire army by herself or others claiming Aang could have beaten the whole red lotus crew alone. Meanwhile, in reality Zuko gets one-shotted.

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    • I just don't get the fact she lost SO easily!!! Ok, she wasn't weak when she gave mercy to Kuvira while she was in the Avatar State. But why did she see herself??? And why Kuvira tried to kill her, in the end? They didn't say the winner could kill the other one!!!

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    • She tried to kill her because, after experiencing the avatar state she knew she would be no match for Korra if allowed to live and fully recover from her mental and physical issues!

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    • No offense but what if you were ill and you needed some alone time?

      How could you be up to snuff to fight a bad guy then?

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    • I was literally in love with that fight. I mean, Kuvira can't really take a hit, and neither can Korra.

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    • I was incredibly dissapointed in Korra during the fight.  I didn't see her as particularly weak, but it was absurd that Korra was the one attacking when she should have been defending.  Korra had the good position of only having to keep Kuvira from advancing, yet she charged in without using an ounce of neutral jing.  

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    • The amount of aang fanboys has always been high. They are particularly hilarious when they claim stupid s*** overestimating TLA characters. I've even heard people say Toph could have beaten Kuvira and her entire army by herself or others claiming Aang could have beaten the whole red lotus crew alone. Meanwhile, in reality Zuko gets one-shotted.

      Zuko is an old man and he doesn't appear to be as good a bender as he used to be. I would have expected him not to be as agile, but I'd have expected him to have a considerable amount of skill with his bending, which didn't really seem to be the case. While Zuko was a good fighter, I think he was the weakest bender in Team Avatar. Why I liked him however was because I felt he had heart.

      Toph on the other hand, was a prodigy and arguably the greatest Earthbender of her time...by the age of 12. I wouldn't make the claim that Toph could drop Kuvira's army solo, but in her prime (and maybe even now), she'd drop Kuvira.

      Aang would have gotten his ass beat by the Red Lotus crew if solo and old Team Avatar vs Red Lotus crew, I might give to RLc. But end of series Aang could have beaten Zaheer in a duel. Not that Korra ever really did get a "fair fight" with Zaheer.

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    • Yeah, I mean Kuvira was waiting before she attacked, but Korra didn't.I thought Toph would help her with this issue!!!! But Korra didn't learn anything...

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    • I wouldn't say Zuko is the weakest member of original team avatar. He could give Toph and Aang a fair fight, even if losing at the end. I've always thought he was on par with Katara. Toph isn't that strong as a fighter, it's just that she's soooo good as an earthbender that beats pretty much anyone on equal conditions. Even if Zuko was the weakest member of the team avatar they were all pretty much equal. It's not that Toph was a hundred times stronger than Zuko. I mean, EoS zuko was beating Azula 1 on 1(she was insane but still).

      When I saw Kuvira fighting I noticed that she fights exactly like toph(only no seismic sense). She waits for the exact time, her attacks are precise and effective. She remains perfectly calm and barely moves from her position. Kuvira is really damn good. I would say if she fought Toph right now, she would win mostly because Toph is old and can't move the way she used to.

      I agree that EoS Aang could beat Zaheer on a duel. But the whole Red Lotus crew, that's a joke. Even Kyoshi would lose fighting 1 v 4  against those guys.

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    • i guess that she isn't weak but totally lost her focus. I can see her regaining her acces to the former avatars- don't know how- but would be kind of interesting though, because her situations reminds me of avatar kyoshi, with chin the conquerer, who created an earth empire too. Guess Korra's gonna destroy Kuvira after she regained her acces to the past avatars- if u see the preview of book 4, you'll see korra with short hair in her water tribe outfit with short hair back in the spirit world. Guess she has some buisness there. Of course she's gonna win this endfight, but we'll se how.

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    • Katara and Zuko were even in every fight they fought besides the north pole where katara had the full moon at night

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    • I wouldn't say Zuko is the weakest member of original team avatar. He could give Toph and Aang a fair fight, even if losing at the end.

      Full disclosure, Zuko is my favorite character from Avatar. I even dressed up as him for Halloween.

      I think Zuko was a great fighter, but alot of that came from his conventional martial arts training. He was very agile and incorporated physical attacks and weapons. But his bending wasn't as exceptional as some of the other benders surrounding him. He did get a bit of a boost near the end when he and Aang learned the Dance of Dragons and was comfortable with the lightning redirect technique, but his raw bending power never got to the levels of Toph or even Katara (barring Sozen's Comet).

      Note that I did not say "weakest member of original team avatar" as I, agree, he wasn't. His relative bending however, I'd argue, was.

      I've always thought he was on par with Katara.

      By the book of Fire, Katara is able to hold her own against Zuko, whom had far more formal training. Once she had nearly a year of experience with Aang waterbending, she was definitely able to fight at his level, and that is in spite of him also being excellent at hand to hand combat and very agile. Katara's strength was almost entirely her bending, whereas Zuko relied on bending supplemented by weapons and conventional martial arts.

      Toph isn't that strong as a fighter, it's just that she's soooo good as an earthbender that beats pretty much anyone on equal conditions.

      Indeed, like Katara, her bending was exceptional, so much so, it made her arguably the most powerful member of Team Avatar outside of Avatar State Aang.


      Even if Zuko was the weakest member of the team avatar they were all pretty much equal. It's not that Toph was a hundred times stronger than Zuko. I mean, EoS zuko was beating Azula 1 on 1(she was insane but still).


      I'd like to think that Zuko had surpassed Azula as a bender...but that just wasn't the case. He certainly had improved, but mental state was really the deciding factor in their duel, she was regressed terribly and was just losing it to the point that she was in the middle of a mental breakdown. Sure, Zuko was matching and even pressing Azula (and I get that him tanking the lightning to save Katara is what took him out of the fight), but Katara was able to beat a Sozen's Comet enhanced Azula decisively in moments.

      When I saw Kuvira fighting I noticed that she fights exactly like toph(only no seismic sense). She waits for the exact time, her attacks are precise and effective. She remains perfectly calm and barely moves from her position. Kuvira is really damn good. I would say if she fought Toph right now, she would win mostly because Toph is old and can't move the way she used to.


      I'll be fair, we've not seen many feats for old Toph, though, from what bending she did do, I'm inclined to believe she's still incredibly sharp, given her precise and fast bending and she had 70 years to improve the art. Her senses being vastly improved also hints at this.

      Kuvira is quite a formidable bender, but I'm not seeing much indicating her being beyond Toph's level as of ATLA, excluding her control over metalbending, which, as we know, Toph had just developed at that point. In the following years however, Toph began the Metalbending School and very reasonably presumably improved it to at least the point that most metalbenders we see now are with it. Kuvira is a creative fighter, but so is Toph and Toph had some very impressive feats both offensive and defensively. And she was able to throw the Avatar of her time (and the current one, whilst being an old woman herself) around like a ragdoll too.

      At the absolute very least, Toph Prime vs Kuvira, Toph would press Kuvira, if not destroy her outright.

      Old Toph vs Kuvira? Hard to say, would need more information. But I do agree, if Toph lost, it would likely be tied to the fact that she's old. Short of Kuvira having some super bending abilities she's holding back right now, that's where I think it stands. 

      I agree that EoS Aang could beat Zaheer on a duel. But the whole Red Lotus crew, that's a joke. Even Kyoshi would lose fighting 1 v 4  against those guys.

      A fully realized Avatar State Avatar going full out with intent to kill without regard for collateral damage (and not imminently dying of poisoning), I don't really see a small group of even exceptional benders taking them out. Even in that one feat, Kyoshi cut down to the mantle and moved an island. With that kind of power, if an Avatar didn't care about anything other than killing those four (zero regards for killing bystanders or devastating the landscape) it would happen. Why I say Aang would get wrecked by the RLc, is because he wouldn't kill them. If Aang had intent to kill which is completely out of character, sure, he'd be capable of murdering them.

      In regards to Kuvira, even a regressed Avatar State Korra was able to instantly beat down Kuvira upon entering the Avatar State, she just couldn't bring herself to deliver the coup de grace, which resulted in Kuvira easily regaining the advantage.

      If we had an Avatar that was serious about killing someone (without some poisoning or mind rape working against them), I don't think there's any known character short of Vaatu, that wouldn't get instagibbed by the Avatar.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      I wouldn't say Zuko is the weakest member of original team avatar. He could give Toph and Aang a fair fight, even if losing at the end.

      Full disclosure, Zuko is my favorite character from Avatar. I even dressed up as him for Halloween.

      I think Zuko was a great fighter, but alot of that came from his conventional martial arts training. He was very agile and incorporated physical attacks and weapons. But his bending wasn't as exceptional as some of the other benders surrounding him. He did get a bit of a boost near the end when he and Aang learned the Dance of Dragons and was comfortable with the lightning redirect technique, but his raw bending power never got to the levels of Toph or even Katara (barring Sozen's Comet).

      Note that I did not say "weakest member of original team avatar" as I, agree, he wasn't. His relative bending however, I'd argue, was.

      I've always thought he was on par with Katara.

      By the book of Fire, Katara is able to hold her own against Zuko, whom had far more formal training. Once she had nearly a year of experience with Aang waterbending, she was definitely able to fight at his level, and that is in spite of him also being excellent at hand to hand combat and very agile. Katara's strength was almost entirely her bending, whereas Zuko relied on bending supplemented by weapons and conventional martial arts.

      Toph isn't that strong as a fighter, it's just that she's soooo good as an earthbender that beats pretty much anyone on equal conditions.

      Indeed, like Katara, her bending was exceptional, so much so, it made her arguably the most powerful member of Team Avatar outside of Avatar State Aang.


      Even if Zuko was the weakest member of the team avatar they were all pretty much equal. It's not that Toph was a hundred times stronger than Zuko. I mean, EoS zuko was beating Azula 1 on 1(she was insane but still).


      I'd like to think that Zuko had surpassed Azula as a bender...but that just wasn't the case. He certainly had improved, but mental state was really the deciding factor in their duel, she was regressed terribly and was just losing it to the point that she was in the middle of a mental breakdown. Sure, Zuko was matching and even pressing Azula (and I get that him tanking the lightning to save Katara is what took him out of the fight), but Katara was able to beat a Sozen's Comet enhanced Azula decisively in moments.

      When I saw Kuvira fighting I noticed that she fights exactly like toph(only no seismic sense). She waits for the exact time, her attacks are precise and effective. She remains perfectly calm and barely moves from her position. Kuvira is really damn good. I would say if she fought Toph right now, she would win mostly because Toph is old and can't move the way she used to.


      I'll be fair, we've not seen many feats for old Toph, though, from what bending she did do, I'm inclined to believe she's still incredibly sharp, given her precise and fast bending and she had 70 years to improve the art. Her senses being vastly improved also hints at this.

      Kuvira is quite a formidable bender, but I'm not seeing much indicating her being beyond Toph's level as of ATLA, excluding her control over metalbending, which, as we know, Toph had just developed at that point. In the following years however, Toph began the Metalbending School and very reasonably presumably improved it to at least the point that most metalbenders we see now are with it. Kuvira is a creative fighter, but so is Toph and Toph had some very impressive feats both offensive and defensively. And she was able to throw the Avatar of her time (and the current one, whilst being an old woman herself) around like a ragdoll too.

      At the absolute very least, Toph Prime vs Kuvira, Toph would press Kuvira, if not destroy her outright.

      Old Toph vs Kuvira? Hard to say, would need more information. But I do agree, if Toph lost, it would likely be tied to the fact that she's old. Short of Kuvira having some super bending abilities she's holding back right now, that's where I think it stands. 

      I agree that EoS Aang could beat Zaheer on a duel. But the whole Red Lotus crew, that's a joke. Even Kyoshi would lose fighting 1 v 4  against those guys.

      A fully realized Avatar State Avatar going full out with intent to kill without regard for collateral damage (and not imminently dying of poisoning), I don't really see a small group of even exceptional benders taking them out. Even in that one feat, Kyoshi cut down to the mantle and moved an island. With that kind of power, if an Avatar didn't care about anything other than killing those four (zero regards for killing bystanders or devastating the landscape) it would happen. Why I say Aang would get wrecked by the RLc, is because he wouldn't kill them. If Aang had intent to kill which is completely out of character, sure, he'd be capable of murdering them.

      In regards to Kuvira, even a regressed Avatar State Korra was able to instantly beat down Kuvira upon entering the Avatar State, she just couldn't bring herself to deliver the coup de grace, which resulted in Kuvira easily regaining the advantage.

      If we had an Avatar that was serious about killing someone (without some poisoning or mind rape working against them), I don't think there's any known character short of Vaatu, that wouldn't get instagibbed by the Avatar.


      absolutley right! They are all definetly no deal for a fully realized avatar. But Korra definetly needs to get her mindblock away!

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    • I agree that Toph prime would beat Kuvira, I can't really see Toph on her primer fighting an earthbender and losing. Maybe Bumi(the old man) but even that is unlikely to me. Specially considering he was very old.

      As for the Red Lotus fighting a fully realized avatar, well, I think they could win no matter who he is. I mean, Zaheer alone could handle Korra pretty well. I know she was poisoned but that wasn't an issue until later. The power of the avatar state comes from Raava, which means, all the avatars have pretty much the same raw power when it comes to bending. Maybe Kyoshi is a better fighter(can't really tell since we didn't get to see her in a real fight) but there's a big gap from:

      (Avatar State Korra = Zaheer)

      (Avatar State Kyoshi > Zaheer + P'Li + Ming Hua + Ghazan ) ?

      Hmm, I don't think so. I might be wrong, Kyoshi did split a continent but I think that's just bending the earth with the avatar state rather than being so powerful that can break the earth. I mean, Ghazan burned the entire aire temple. If we judge Ghazan's strenght by the lava he buried the temple with he's avatar state level. But he clearly is not, there are other factors like the fact it took him quite some time to accomplish such a feat.

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    • As for the Red Lotus fighting a fully realized avatar, well, I think they could win no matter who he is. I mean, Zaheer alone could handle Korra pretty well. I know she was poisoned but that wasn't an issue until later. The power of the avatar state comes from Raava, which means, all the avatars have pretty much the same raw power when it comes to bending. Maybe Kyoshi is a better fighter(can't really tell since we didn't get to see her in a real fight) but there's a big gap from:


      Korra technically is a "fully realized Avatar" even though I don't agree with the classification.

      Korra only even got to the point of the forced Avatar State because she was in mortal danger from the poison. It did progressively get worse, but she was pressing Zaheer most of the fight. With him spending alot of the battle running. And Korra was pretty much acting like a wounded animal lashing out at a threat.

      Not exactly, Raava holds the elements and connects the current life to the previous lives. Raava is undeniably a major part of why the Avatar is so powerful, but it isn't entirely Raava that is the power. The Avatar State draws upon the power and knowledge accumulated by every past incarnation, so, really, the Avatar State keeps getting stronger with the more lives added to the list. One point of contention, that I find interesting, is that some argue the connections to the previous lives are gone after Vaatu's attack in Book 2, which if that were true, it may have significantly reduced the power of the Avatar State. I don't believe the connections are completely gone, and would argue if they were, the Avatar State would simply be Korra at this point. I am open to the possibility that the state has been weakened as a result of the attack, but, not enough information to really tell.

      Suffice it to say, at least until Korra's damage from Vaatu (at which point, we don't really know), the Avatar State only got stronger each progressive generation.

      (Avatar State Korra = Zaheer)

      (Avatar State Kyoshi > Zaheer + P'Li + Ming Hua + Ghazan ) ?

      Hmm, I don't think so. I might be wrong, Kyoshi did split a continent but I think that's just bending the earth with the avatar state rather than being so powerful that can break the earth. I mean, Ghazan burned the entire aire temple. If we judge Ghazan's strenght by the lava he buried the temple with he's avatar state level. But he clearly is not, there are other factors like the fact it took him quite some time to accomplish such a feat.

      In with my earlier comments, Kyoshi's Avatar State may have been stronger than Korra's, due to Vaatu's damage to Raava. Korra also wasn't really in control of the Avatar State, fighting like a wild beast and was literally dying as the fight went on due to poisoning. I mean, look at Aang, he beat the shit out of Fire Lord Ozai during Sozin's Comet (and yes, to be fair, Aang should reasonably have benefited from the upgrade too), Ozai was an incredibly powerful firebender with a whole lifetime of experience bending. Some things were admittedly stacked against Korra while fighting Zaheer, when comparing her to other Avatars.

      Kyoshi cut down to the mantle and bent the earth and magma, and turned what was part of a peninsula, into an island out in the ocean. That is a massive feat of power.

      Both were impressive feats but:

      Moving an island > burning down a temple.

      And Kyoshi did it in seconds.

      The combined RLc very well couldn't have even penetrated the elemental shield of Avatar Aang, which withstood attacks from a Sozin's Comet enhanced Ozai. The only reason why I think RLc could beat Aang is because it is not in his character to kill and he seems reluctant to even enter the Avatar State (possibly due to him being locked out of it throughout most of book 3, so maybe if he had complete access to it whenever he felt like, he would just use it and rock them), and that would be necessary while dealing with these people in a 1v4. I'm frankly shocked that they managed to even capture the four a decade earlier and that was with multiple benders fighting them.

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    • It was kind of disappointing. Each time she makes a breakthrough or change it's implied she's attained newfound knowledge or understanding. I know she was "rusty", but she was still fighting like book 1 Korra. 

      So I guess she'll end up heading deeper into the Spirit World and reconnecting with whatever is left of/a reincarnated Raava. Or come to peace with herself and the responsibilities of being the Avatar. (Which is, you know, weird. I thought she was over it when she removed the last traces of mercury.) 

      Then we know the rematch in the last episode. Korra will outmanuever and outbend Kuvira while probably keeping completely calm and focused. Once she finds out she's definitely going to lose, Kuvira will lose her shit and get desperate/reckless. Then the spirit weapon will get blown up, etc. 

      Or something. 

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    • I think Kuvira will only grow stronger as a bender. And she, like Korra, will come to realization of a few things. So as Korra develops, so will Kuvira.

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    • How will Korra develop?? What is in her mind? Why did she see herself? Will Tenzin or Jinora help her again???

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    • I don't agree that Korra shouldn't have fought the duel. It was impressive that she even managed to broker a truce, & yeah Suyin was stupid for screwing it up, but let's not pretend that if we absolve Kuvira for imprisoning Suyin, she's innocent.

      She shouldn't be attacking Zaofu in the first place. She shouldn't be the Earth Empress in the first place. How quickly she forgets that she only got to where she is by totally disregarding the agreement she had with the other nations.

      She also stands accused of civil rights abuses & is building some kind of super weapon, which Korra can't just ignore. No, I think Korra's line of "fighting is what the old me would have done" was just an excuse, I think she's just still hesitant to fight IN GENERAL.

      A peaceful solution is basically impossible here, & frankly I think it was pure Idiot Ball Plot for Kuvira to attempt to challenge Korra to a duel. She could have just backed off & said that if Zaofu wants to rule itself, then they don't get to import or export anything over her territory. Korra would feel compelled to continue negotiations with her (which would be designed to tie her up in bureaucratic red tape) & Zaofu would eventually yield to the pressure. Kuvira could even give small concessions, like allowing donated food to be flown in by the Air Nomads, which would soften her image, but ultimately just be delaying the inevitable. Hou Ting & Long Feng may have been pompous windbags, but they knew that you don't defeat an Avatar by bashing them into submission.

      Seeing as Kuvira clearly had no plan for the Avatar State & is said to have been made similar to Book 1 Korra, I don't think her trash talk was some kind of calculated move, & if it was, like I said, that was the lamest Reason You Suck Speech I've ever heard.

      "I brought balance to the Earth Kingdom, not you. Go home, you're no longer relevant here."

      "Cute. If you want Zaofu, you can have it when I use the Avatar State to drop it on top of you."

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    • Why should Korra have fought the duel?

      She's recombining the nation, which she was tasked to do by Raiko and eventually Suyin came to support that plan. Let's think about it, why is the Earth King qualified to rule the nation? Why does being born into the royal family make him a legitimate ruler?

      To be fair, Kuvira did just walk in and take/stabilize Ba Sing Se. It was only after that, that she gained their approval and support. She started this without the other nations and if left alone, she probably could have continued to this point without them. She took the majority of Zaofu's military force and wealth with her when she left.

      Korra has ignored this for 3 years. What have the united nations done about it? Where is the oversight? Those are fairly big allegations and nobody has done anything about it.

      Why is building a superweapon wrong? Also, the Avatar is essentially a super weapon that answers to nobody, why is that allowed to roam free?

      Kuvira was just attacked by Suyin, leader of Zaofu, and she went in and took it, without bloodshed. Kuvira did offer a truce and was willing to negotiate. Suyin pretty much destroyed that, but Korra fighting her doesn't fix that.

      Kuvira wants the former Earth Kingdom reunited and so she's going to do just that. Suyin's Zaofu is within Earth Empire's national boundaries and so this is merely a civil skirmish. This would be like Texas saying it felt like seceding from the union and the US military went there and said "no, you're not."

      Kuvira could impose an embargo on Zaofu...but why? Kuvira walked in, captured its leader who attacked her during a truce, and trounced the Avatar in single combat when she tried to stop her, and as per their agreement, Korra is now, by her word, not to interfere with Kuvira. Kuvira won the day easily, without killing anyone, without losing any troops, and has a very strong case for holding Zaofu.

      Kuvira explicitly told her to go ahead and do whatever she felt she had to, including using the Avatar State. Kuvira knew Korra was a joke and she was right.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:

      Kuvira explicitly told her to go ahead and do whatever she felt she had to, including using the Avatar State. Kuvira knew Korra was a joke and she was right.

      That's pretty much how I see it... Kuvira is skilled at manipulation and that's her strength against the Avatar. Also where was that pent up rage Korra was talking about? Old Korra would of attacked with more fury than she did in this duel. Also now Kuvira has full control of the Earth Kingdom/Empire with the exception of Republic City and the United Republic of Nations which was seceded from the Earth Kingdom. Unlike Zaofu Kuvira would have to actually fight to take over Republic City and the Fire Nation. 

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    • Why should Korra have fought the duel?

      Literally everything that I am saying is the explanation.

      Your next several comments are totally irrelevant. Neither Kuvira stabilizing the Earth Kingdom nor the fact that someone else was ignoring the problem gives her free reign to do whatever she wants.

      Why is building a superweapon wrong? Also, the Avatar is essentially a super weapon that answers to nobody, why is that allowed to roam free?

      The purpose of the Avatar is to preserve balance within society & nature, which building a giant death ray would obviously disrupt. Furthermore, the Avatar has legitimized its existence by repeatedly saving the world & brokering truces. Note that this does not mean that the Avatar is always right, just that the Avatar has proven its usefulness to the world as a peacekeeper.

      What the Avatar DOES NOT DO is say, "Well, since I've done all of these great things for the nations of the world, that means they all have to answer directly to me. And since I've saved the lives of countless people, that means that they are under my control, & will be imprisoned if they criticize my rule." (Psst...that would be Kuvira.)

      Kuvira was just attacked by Suyin, leader of Zaofu, and she went in and took it, without bloodshed. Kuvira did offer a truce and was willing to negotiate. Suyin pretty much destroyed that, but Korra fighting her doesn't fix that.

      Sort of like how Suyin attacking Kuvira doesn't justify the fact that Kuvira stole power from Wu & attacked Zaofu in the first place. Of course it doesn't undo Suyin's mistake, the duel isn't about that, it's about stopping Kuvira.

      I'll tell you how I would have prevented Suyin from attacking Kuvira: "Kuvira, you have 10 seconds to surrender or else I go into the Avatar State & drop a mountain on you. And I know you overthrew the existing government when your position was supposed to be temporary, so don't try any of that 'rightful owner of Zaofu' crap on me."

      Kuvira wants the former Earth Kingdom reunited and so she's going to do just that. Suyin's Zaofu is within Earth Empire's national boundaries and so this is merely a civil skirmish. This would be like Texas saying it felt like seceding from the union and the US military went there and said "no, you're not."

      If there was a step in the middle there where some general abolished the democracy & declared himself Emperor, then decided he didn't like this whole "state rights" thing & was going to impose a bunch of new laws on Texas, which include forced labor camps for anyone who criticizes the government because the Constitution is now toilet paper, then yes, it would be like that.

      Kuvira could impose an embargo on Zaofu...but why? Kuvira walked in, captured its leader who attacked her during a truce, and trounced the Avatar in single combat when she tried to stop her, and as per their agreement, Korra is now, by her word, not to interfere with Kuvira. Kuvira won the day easily, without killing anyone, without losing any troops, and has a very strong case for holding Zaofu.

      Kuvira's plan didn't work because it was smart, it worked because Korra had a PTSD flashback when she was about to crush Kuvira, or more to the point, it worked because the plot needed it to. You can't say a plan is good because it worked in hindsight, & even if we allowed that, we would have to ultimately conclude that Kuvira's plan is bad because Korra is clearly going to defeat her by the end of the season.

      And if you tell me that Kuvira somehow knew that Korra would be unable to kill her, that's crap writing, you can't "predict" something like that. People with PTSD are still able to fight & kill, that's why a common symptom of war flashbacks is to act like you're in a fight, either pulling someone nearby under cover or attacking them because you've mistaken them for an enemy.

      So how can Kuvira predict that Korra won't stick to her agreement? Because that's stupid, the Avatar wouldn't ignore the situation even though all of her friends & the world leaders want her to intervene because "lol I promised." But if she was tied up in endless negotiations, she might, because you've got that carrot on the stick to coax her along, that illusion that she might find a resolution that makes everyone happy if she just...keeps...talking...to...you...just...a...little...longer....

      Kuvira explicitly told her to go ahead and do whatever she felt she had to, including using the Avatar State. Kuvira knew Korra was a joke and she was right.

      Again, it worked because of plot convenience, there is no way that Kuvira could have predicted Avatar State Korra would be unable to kill her.

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    • Literally everything that I am saying is the explanation.

      Oh, sorry, I assumed you would have actually had something of substance to support the assertion.

      Your next several comments are totally irrelevant. Neither Kuvira stabilizing the Earth Kingdom nor the fact that someone else was ignoring the problem gives her free reign to do whatever she wants.

      Except, they aren't irrelevant. Her claim to the position stems from the fact that she was the primary leader to unite the nation. As for the "ignoring the problem" bit, it's a legitimate question, if this is such a widespread problem, why has nobody pressed the issue? Why is this Suyin's defense only now that Kuvira is essentially done reuniting the nation? If she was a subordinate to Raiko et al, why hasn't this issue been addressed? And all we are working on is heresay in regards to the reeducation, we've only had vague allusions to it, we've not seen or been told what the "reeducation" actually entails.

      But okay, I could go your route and say that your points were irrelevant:

      She shouldn't be attacking Zaofu in the first place. She shouldn't be the Earth Empress in the first place. 

      because she actually is marching on Zaofu, whether she should or shouldn't be allowed to is irrelevant, because she actually is doing it. Whether she should or shouldn't be Earth Empress is irrelevant, because she actually is Earth Empress now.

      The purpose of the Avatar is to preserve balance within society & nature, which building a giant death ray would obviously disrupt. Furthermore, the Avatar has legitimized its existence by repeatedly saving the world & brokering truces. Note that this does not mean that the Avatar is always right, just that the Avatar has proven its usefulness to the world as a peacekeeper.

      This role is one the Avatar was self appointed to and it decides these things without the input of the humans. It's no more legitimate than Kuvira claiming herself to be the Earth Empress. The Avatar essentially cut the world in half 10,000 years ago, the Avatar recently recombined the world on a whim, both being huge earth changing events, the Avatar historically kept the four nations separate, the Avatar has toppled governments before, the Avatar has endorsed governments, the Avatar has failed to defend an entire race, which was targeted because its incarnation was a member of said race and the previous Avatar had pissed off that world leader and threatened him with a huge show of force. etc. While a case can be made for the legitimacy of the Avatar, a case for it being a negative force can also be comfortably made.

      Having the death ray and using it are not the same thing. Also, considering there is a walking WMD alive in the Avatar, a big weapon to counter it is not so wild an idea.

      What the Avatar DOES NOT DO is say, "Well, since I've done all of these great things for the nations of the world, that means they all have to answer directly to me. And since I've saved the lives of countless people, that means that they are under my control, & will be imprisoned if they criticize my rule." (Psst...that would be Kuvira.)

      But it easily could and may have even done so in the past. We do know of Avatar Kuruk going around boasting and dueling people randomly and pissing off spirits, pretty much against what the Avatar is supposed to do. We have Kyoshi killing a world leader and rearranging the map because she felt like it. The Avatar is a person given massive power and they get to use it as they choose, and when the Avatar wants to do something, generally, people cannot resist due to its immense power.

      As for your shot at Kuvira, where is the proof of her doing this widespread? She's uniting her nation and claims she's looking for equality and order. All we really have is a couple of mentions of "reeducation camps" and a couple of threats against people who are turning on their end of a bargain (Varrick was working on this project for her and Bolin agreed that he was on board). Comparing her to a conqueror, she's incredibly lenient when compared to many of those from our own history.

      Sort of like how Suyin attacking Kuvira doesn't justify the fact that Kuvira stole power from Wu & attacked Zaofu in the first place. Of course it doesn't undo Suyin's mistake, the duel isn't about that, it's about stopping Kuvira.

      Kuvira had the power, Wu didn't. He had nothing for her to steal. Kuvira is the leader of the Earth Empire, Wu is Earth King in name only, pretty much like he would have been had Raiko's advisors ruled Earth Kingdom.

      As leader of the nation, why should she not claim her own country's territory? If anything, Suyin is holding something that isn't hers and ultimately, couldn't hold it anyways, even with her employing underhanded tactics. And testament to how effective Kuvira is, she reclaimed the city without killing anyone.

      And Korra had no standing in the conflict to begin with and Kuvira had a solid claim to the land.

      I'll tell you how I would have prevented Suyin from attacking Kuvira: "Kuvira, you have 10 seconds to surrender or else I go into the Avatar State & drop a mountain on you. And I know you overthrew the existing government when your position was supposed to be temporary, so don't try any of that 'rightful owner of Zaofu' crap on me."

      If that's how you'd do things, how are you criticizing Kuvira and her methods with a straight face? You're also further illustrating my point with how problematic the very concept of the Avatar is.

      If there was a step in the middle there where some general abolished the democracy & declared himself Emperor, then decided he didn't like this whole "state rights" thing & was going to impose a bunch of new laws on Texas, which include forced labor camps for anyone who criticizes the government because the Constitution is now toilet paper, then yes, it would be like that.

      Okay, still waiting, seeing as there wasn't a democracy there to begin with. This was a kingdom with a monarchy to an empire with an empress. What new and fundamentally different laws were on the table? Where are the forced labor camps in Avatar, specifically for merely criticizing the government?

      But even in Texas' case, which is in a federal republic, they'd be facing down the national army.

      Kuvira's plan didn't work because it was smart, it worked because Korra had a PTSD flashback when she was about to crush Kuvira, or more to the point, it worked because the plot needed it to. You can't say a plan is good because it worked in hindsight, & even if we allowed that, we would have to ultimately conclude that Kuvira's plan is bad because Korra is clearly going to defeat her by the end of the season.

      Nothing indicates she knew Korra would be there until she saw her there right before the truce.

      This is what happened in their universe and if you want to just chalk it up to "because the plot needed it to" then everything in Avatar could simply be that. Korra only wasn't locked out of bending in her first encounter with Amon, because the plot needed it to work out like it did.

      But again, Kuvira wasn't afraid of Avatar State and very clearly pointed this out beforehand and she was right, she didn't need to be afraid of Korra.

      And if you tell me that Kuvira somehow knew that Korra would be unable to kill her, that's crap writing, you can't "predict" something like that. People with PTSD are still able to fight & kill, that's why a common symptom of war flashbacks is to act like you're in a fight, either pulling someone nearby under cover or attacking them because you've mistaken them for an enemy.

      Kuvira did predict it. So, if you want to argue that it's shit writing, have at it. I think the writing is good and it's just that Korra is a flawed character, which is part of good writing.

      As for your views on PTSD, it manifests in different ways. Some can function more or less fine, some become super violent, some lock up, et al. Korra has some deep seated mental issues and those were a part of this fight...and the last few seasons. It's not just out of nowhere. And this is her first real fight in years. Which further supports the notion that fighting Kuvira was a bad idea.

      So how can Kuvira predict that Korra won't stick to her agreement? Because that's stupid, the Avatar wouldn't ignore the situation even though all of her friends & the world leaders want her to intervene because "lol I promised." But if she was tied up in endless negotiations, she might, because you've got that carrot on the stick to coax her along, that illusion that she might find a resolution that makes everyone happy if she just...keeps...talking...to...you...just...a...little...longer....

      Which agreement do you refer to? The Truce? Kuvira probably expected it, because she knows Korra is a hot headed young adult.

      So, you're saying that promises don't mean anything? Why are you upset about Kuvira shafting Wu on a matter of principle again?

      Kuvira didn't need to go that route though, she doesn't need to negotiate at this point, she has the rebel leader and the Avatar isn't going to go for a diplomatic solution anyways. Also, Kuvira believes Korra to be irrelevant, so, she doesn't really care what the Avatar does, just wants it to stop pestering her and wasting her time.

      Again, it worked because of plot convenience, there is no way that Kuvira could have predicted Avatar State Korra would be unable to kill her.

      Fine, if you want to go that route, I'll raise you that Korra is only even alive right now because of dozens of instances of plot shielding.

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    • I feel that Kuvira could eventually overcome the Avatar State like Zaheer did as well as Unalaq. It would be cool to watch Korra go full Avatar State and Kuvira still keep up with her.

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    • Any basic bender, including some that are "superpowered" like Ozai, cannot really keep up with the Avatar state without some gimmick or plot device that either limits the Avatar state in some way or rivals it. With the way the story is going, the gimmick thus far is the limiting prospect (i.e. Korra's psychology problem).

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    • Oh, sorry, I assumed you would have actually had something of substance to support the assertion.

      I can't demonstrate a point to someone who is deliberately avoiding it, so consider this my last response.

      Except, they aren't irrelevant. Her claim to the position stems from the fact that she was the primary leader to unite the nation.

      Which is irrelevant, it proves only that she was capable of a public service, which she was already recognized for. It didn't win her control over the throne, she just plain went, "I'm taking it & no one's gonna stop me."

      But okay, I could go your route and say that your points were irrelevant:

      How is it irrelevant? Do you even know what was being argued here? It was that Kuvira would not be vindicated if we pardoned her of capturing Suyin, because she still has other crimes to answer for.

      While a case can be made for the legitimacy of the Avatar, a case for it being a negative force can also be comfortably made.

      So can I see it? Oh...that was supposed to be it, wasn't it?

      Cut the world in half: Literally necessary to prevent humans from going extinct.

      Recombining it: Considering Korra could always close the portals if something went wrong, this was never an issue, & was just seized upon as a scapegoat by Raiko.

      Political Stuff: So? None of this is inherently bad.

      Failed to stop a genocide: Wow, that's really reaching. Never mind that the Fire Nation also targeted Earthbenders & Waterbenders just to keep them out of the war.

      I wouldn't be comfortable with this case if I had to defend it in a court of law. You rely primarily on tortured logic of situations taken out of context. In fact, people in all eras generally turn to the Avatar in times of need, with the people arguing that it shouldn't exist largely being psychos like Zaheer & Amon.

      Now, if Wan had turned around & tried to conquer the world with his new found power, no, he wouldn't be legitimate.


      Having the death ray and using it are not the same thing.

      Yeah, I bet it's just a decoration. Something to hang on top of her mantle.

      Also, considering there is a walking WMD alive in the Avatar, a big weapon to counter it is not so wild an idea.

      This is like having an army specifically to counter the UN Peace Force.

      As for your shot at Kuvira, where is the proof of her doing this widespread?

      Is this your first TV show, or are you just being intellectually dishonest? Law of Conservation of Detail. Look it up. If the show tells us something, it's not just blowing smoke, it's because it's important.

      Kuvira had the power, Wu didn't. He had nothing for her to steal.

      Yes. He did. He had legal ownership of that post from birth. The reason he couldn't exercise his power at his coronation is because Kuvira seized control of the nation. And let me clear something up for you: I am not "upset," I'm simply pointing out that this:

      As leader of the nation, why should she not claim her own country's territory?

      Is bollocks. You can't make arguments that hinge on Kuvira having a legal right to those territories when she doesn't have a legal right to those territories.

      If that's how you'd do things, how are you criticizing Kuvira and her methods with a straight face? You're also further illustrating my point with how problematic the very concept of the Avatar is.

      Let's be honest, you're going to perceive EVERYTHING as proving you right. Right here, YOU YOURSELF draw a comparison between me & Kuvira, but you still say it would be wrong for the Avatar to do this, but not Kuvira.

      Okay, still waiting, seeing as there wasn't a democracy there to begin with.

      ...YOU are the one who made the analogy to America IN THE FIRST PLACE. I know that the situations you are comparing are completely dissimilar, but I did my best to make it work anyway, because I'm actually TRYING TO ADDRESS YOUR POINT. Because that is how intellectual honesty works.

      As for your views on PTSD, it manifests in different ways

      Yes, this is WHY IT CAN'T BE PREDICTED, & therefore trying to portray a character as smart by having them PREDICT IMPOSSIBLE THINGS THROUGH WILD LEAPS IN LOGIC is bad writing. Fortunately, there is good reason to believe that the authors actually understand the difference between JUSTIFYING THE PLOT versus USING THE PLOT AS JUSTIFICATION, even if you don't. For a great example, hop on to Rumors & Updates, where I show how they don't just go "lol Korra has PTSD 'cause we say so," but actually take the effort to replicate the symptoms with great accuracy.

      So, you're saying that promises don't mean anything?

      Holy Loaded Question, Batman. I'm saying that promises don't overrule common sense, such as "this person might not keep their agreement, I shouldn't bet on that" or "maybe I need to break this agreement for the greater good." The agreement in question, by the way, is Korra's word to not interfere because she lost the duel.

      Kuvira didn't need to go that route though, she doesn't need to negotiate at this point, she has the rebel leader and the Avatar isn't going to go for a diplomatic solution anyways.

      No, instead she's going to regain her mojo & come kick the crap out of Kuvira, which could have been avoided if the supergenius didn't challenge her to a fight.

      Also, Kuvira believes Korra to be irrelevant, so, she doesn't really care what the Avatar does, just wants it to stop pestering her and wasting her time.

      Then she's an idiot, but I already kind of figured that out when she thought she could defeat the Avatar State in a duel.

      Fine, if you want to go that route, I'll raise you that Korra is only even alive right now because of dozens of instances of plot shielding.

      I'd argue that this isn't true, but it honestly doesn't even matter, because this is a straw man with a dash of irrelevance: Saying that this scene only occurred for plot convenience does not imply that every other scene that preceded it was flawless.

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    • I can't demonstrate a point to someone who is deliberately avoiding it, so consider this my last response.


      Who's deliberately avoiding it? If this is your last response because you're angry, why even bother typing that and wasting the time to finish the post? But alright, if it's going to be like that, I won't even bother reading the rest of your post. Everybody wins!

      Any basic bender, including some that are "superpowered" like Ozai, cannot really keep up with the Avatar state without some gimmick or plot device that either limits the Avatar state in some way or rivals it. With the way the story is going, the gimmick thus far is the limiting prospect (i.e. Korra's psychology problem).

      Pretty much this. But at least they tried. :)

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    • Yes, she is weak. Is it her fault? Not at all. To be honest, (nostalgia aside), I'd much rather Korra as a friend and while she is markedly weakened now in book 4 (so far), her insecurities are totally justified. Have we ever had a crazy masked man who wanted to destroy our abilities and strengths? Have we ever had an uncle who wanted our title to be voided? Have we ever had an anarchist run amok trying to kill us? That is some heavy psychological baggage, not to mention how physically devasted she was from the poison and the massive falls she took. 

      If you pay attention to her fight with Kuvira, and compare it with basically any scene where Korra fights prior to Book 4, you'll notice that Korra is markedly thinner - she's lost muscle, practice, confidence and speed, and PTSD to boot. I'm not sure if any of you have actually met someone who's suffered/suffering from PTSD (whether it be from war or whatever), but I can assure you that Korra is handle it FAR better than most. <3 Korra! I believe in you! 

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      I can't demonstrate a point to someone who is deliberately avoiding it, so consider this my last response.


      Who's deliberately avoiding it? If this is your last response because you're angry, why even bother typing that and wasting the time to finish the post? But alright, if it's going to be like that, I won't even bother reading the rest of your post. Everybody wins!

      Any basic bender, including some that are "superpowered" like Ozai, cannot really keep up with the Avatar state without some gimmick or plot device that either limits the Avatar state in some way or rivals it. With the way the story is going, the gimmick thus far is the limiting prospect (i.e. Korra's psychology problem).

      Pretty much this. But at least they tried. :)

      If Korra was straight up able to enter the Avatar and take out the villain, we wouldn't have much of a story or any real tension. I can see the need to somehow remove that overpowering factor or to mitigate it. Part of what made book 1 nice was that Korra didn't have any access to that power.

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      Weltall8000 wrote:
      I can't demonstrate a point to someone who is deliberately avoiding it, so consider this my last response.

      Who's deliberately avoiding it? If this is your last response because you're angry, why even bother typing that and wasting the time to finish the post? But alright, if it's going to be like that, I won't even bother reading the rest of your post. Everybody wins!

      Any basic bender, including some that are "superpowered" like Ozai, cannot really keep up with the Avatar state without some gimmick or plot device that either limits the Avatar state in some way or rivals it. With the way the story is going, the gimmick thus far is the limiting prospect (i.e. Korra's psychology problem).

      Pretty much this. But at least they tried. :)

      If Korra was straight up able to enter the Avatar and take out the villain, we wouldn't have much of a story or any real tension. I can see the need to somehow remove that overpowering factor or to mitigate it. Part of what made book 1 nice was that Korra didn't have any access to that power.

      You do realise this is how ATLA started?

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    • Well, to be fair, Roku didn't take out Sozin, which is what made him angry and set him down on the warpath, ultimately slaughtering the Air Nomads and positioning the Fire Nation on its course of imperialism. If Roku did kill Sozin, I wonder what would have happened.

      Or better yet, what If Roku took Sozin up on his proposal? Would they have peacefully united the world? Would they have conquered it? Would the world be better or worse off?

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    • Honestly, she's really weaker compared to the past avatars. She's overly dramatic, too stressed and emotional. I don't know if this has something to do with her being a girl a "teenage girl". Plus, she's not thinking things through before she act. tsk..tsk.. but i still like her when she's not herself and she's being the AVATAR. :)

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    • I was at first not buying that Korra could lose to Kuvira even without the Avatar State, but I'm now convinced as I'd forgotten how weak she'd really become. But it was still pretty ridiculous that Kuvira thought she could take on the Avatar State.

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    • Right now Korra is a lot weaker than she was during the entire series. Episode 1 of Book 1 she was a lot stronger(not counting avatar state). Not long ago she lost against some random thieves and some random earthbender.

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    • FirelordRoku wrote:
      I was at first not buying that Korra could lose to Kuvira even without the Avatar State, but I'm now convinced as I'd forgotten how weak she'd really become. But it was still pretty ridiculous that Kuvira thought she could take on the Avatar State.

      The concept of the avatar state isnt well known among people who arent spiritual or the avatar. 

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    • Kuvira is smart, agile, and an absolute bending master. Korra has had one recurring problem throughout the entire series, she doesn't know when to take the defensive stance. She is too agressive and lets that take over when she needs to take a step back. Kuvira, as previously said by many other commenters, is a master manipulator. She had an ARMY behind Korra, even if she said she would make it a fair fight, that is going to make you feel helpless. She tore her down, and Korra got angry and attacked. Kuvira took a sloppy, unprepared, broken down Avatar and let her tire herself out before beating the living crap out of her. 

      Korra is also a very weak Avatar. We have all seen what the Avatar State can do when used properly (if you really need a reminder, watch the season finale of the first series). Korra isn't a very good bender because she is agressive and acts before she thinks. I don't want to bash her but she needs to get rid of her hot-headedness or she will lose over...and over...and over again. 

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    • Thebridge14 wrote:
      FirelordRoku wrote:
      I was at first not buying that Korra could lose to Kuvira even without the Avatar State, but I'm now convinced as I'd forgotten how weak she'd really become. But it was still pretty ridiculous that Kuvira thought she could take on the Avatar State.
      The concept of the avatar state isnt well known among people who arent spiritual or the avatar. 

      Kuvira had worked with Korra before however. She was involved in quite a bit of the later book 3 events (she was Suyin's captain and she fought alongside the Avatar against the Red Lotus members on a couple ocassions). It's reasonable to assume that she's both familiar with Korra and has at least a basic understanding of how the Avatar functions.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Thebridge14 wrote:
      FirelordRoku wrote:
      I was at first not buying that Korra could lose to Kuvira even without the Avatar State, but I'm now convinced as I'd forgotten how weak she'd really become. But it was still pretty ridiculous that Kuvira thought she could take on the Avatar State.
      The concept of the avatar state isnt well known among people who arent spiritual or the avatar. 
      Kuvira had worked with Korra before however. She was involved in quite a bit of the later book 3 events (she was Suyin's captain and she fought alongside the Avatar against the Red Lotus members on a couple ocassions). It's reasonable to assume that she's both familiar with Korra and has at least a basic understanding of how the Avatar functions.

      Well look on the bright side! Eventhough she's a weak Avatar, at least they didn't make her like Ash Katchum in the newer Pokemon series. I mean haven't you seen him since after Jhoto? It's Descraceful!!!

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Thebridge14 wrote:
      FirelordRoku wrote:
      I was at first not buying that Korra could lose to Kuvira even without the Avatar State, but I'm now convinced as I'd forgotten how weak she'd really become. But it was still pretty ridiculous that Kuvira thought she could take on the Avatar State.
      The concept of the avatar state isnt well known among people who arent spiritual or the avatar. 
      Kuvira had worked with Korra before however. She was involved in quite a bit of the later book 3 events (she was Suyin's captain and she fought alongside the Avatar against the Red Lotus members on a couple ocassions). It's reasonable to assume that she's both familiar with Korra and has at least a basic understanding of how the Avatar functions.


      Yeah but she probally doesnt know about raava and the power boost she gives the avatar 

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    • Xdoods wrote:
      Kuvira is smart, agile, and an absolute bending master. Korra has had one recurring problem throughout the entire series, she doesn't know when to take the defensive stance. She is too agressive and lets that take over when she needs to take a step back. Kuvira, as previously said by many other commenters, is a master manipulator. She had an ARMY behind Korra, even if she said she would make it a fair fight, that is going to make you feel helpless. She tore her down, and Korra got angry and attacked. Kuvira took a sloppy, unprepared, broken down Avatar and let her tire herself out before beating the living crap out of her. 

      Korra is also a very weak Avatar. We have all seen what the Avatar State can do when used properly (if you really need a reminder, watch the season finale of the first series). Korra isn't a very good bender because she is agressive and acts before she thinks. I don't want to bash her but she needs to get rid of her hot-headedness or she will lose over...and over...and over again. 


      Aang at the end of Book 3 wasn't even using the full potential of the Avatar State, as we have seen Kioshi effortlessly break an island away from the mainland right down to the mantle, in mere seconds. The Avatar is unbeatable if they're a skilled enough Avatar.

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    • I think she told Korra it was okay to use the avatar state to goad her, so that Korra wouldn't use it out of pride. She was almost right. Korra didn't use it till the last moment. Kuvira's plan was to humiliate and destroy korra before she used the Avatar State

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    • Yeah but she probally doesnt know about raava and the power boost she gives the avatar 

      She's aware of the Avatar State, so, whether or not she knows why the Avatar has a powerup, is neither here nor there, she's aware of the powerup and for the purposes of fighting the Avatar in this duel, knowledge of Raava is not important.

      I think she told Korra it was okay to use the avatar state to goad her, so that Korra wouldn't use it out of pride. She was almost right. Korra didn't use it till the last moment. Kuvira's plan was to humiliate and destroy korra before she used the Avatar State

      I don't think that's unreasonable.

      Either way; not using it, if Kuvira loses, she lost to the Avatar, no shame in that. Using Avatar State, and Kuvira loses, Kuvira loses to the Avatar using its full power, definitely no shame in that. Using the Avatar State and Kuvira wins, "HOLY COW! KUVIRA JUST BEAT THE AVATAR AT FULL POWER!"

      Whether that's fair or not, that's how most people in universe would probably see it and all of Kuvira's soldiers are now like "our leader is the BAWS!" Korra did everything wrong, from accepting the duel that she shouldn't have on principle, to losing it and further dragging the title of Avatar through the mud.

      If she really wanted to do a show of force, and she wasn't committed to outright murdering Kuvira 100-0 at the outset, she could have pulled something like Avatar Kyoshi and made a gigantic natural barrier between the army and Zaofu. Splitting the ground, creating a river, making a wall of fire, etc. would have been a better idea then getting baited to play someone else's game, breaking the rules, and still losing.

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    • I wish you'd all quit hating on Korra!

      It's not like she'll defeat Kuvira in an instant and there's 7 episodes to go!

      If Korra hadn't lost, there would've been 6 episodes in Book 4, not 13.

      Let's remember that Korra's still suffering mentally and these things take time to recover.

      Hopefully, she'll pull through by the final episode.

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    • Korra didn't do anything wrong. She tried to solve things without fighting. It was Su the one show screw that up like an idiot. Korra had no other choice at that point. 

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    • I agree. People just can't face the facts that Korea's growing as an Avatar. She's come to terms that no matter how much she wants to, fighting often makes the problems worse. I was so surprised though when Suyin was like mirroring Book 1 Korea when she was talking about demolishing the army.

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    • SonicFan wrote:
      I wish you'd all quit hating on Korra!

      It's not like she'll defeat Kuvira in an instant and there's 7 episodes to go!

      If Korra hadn't lost, there would've been 6 episodes in Book 4, not 13.

      Let's remember that Korra's still suffering mentally and these things take time to recover.

      Hopefully, she'll pull through by the final episode.

      Why? Roku did to Sozin, Kyoshi did to Chin.

      They could have just not fought.

      Yes, those help explain why she lost. They don't change the fact that she got trounced in front of thousands of spectators.

      If she doesn't, it could make for an interesting conclusion.


      Korra didn't do anything wrong. She tried to solve things without fighting. It was Su the one show screw that up like an idiot. Korra had no other choice at that point. 

      She seemingly didn't try very hard. Then fought.

      Suyin did screw up, that doesn't mean Korra had to as well.

      She did have a choice. She made a poor one to duel Kuvira and lose. She should have been aware of her status, both her current health (physical and mental) as well as her position as Avatar and what it means to people -if she fights someone, and what it means if that someone beats her down fair and square.


      I agree. People just can't face the facts that Korea's growing as an Avatar. She's come to terms that no matter how much she wants to, fighting often makes the problems worse. I was so surprised though when Suyin was like mirroring Book 1 Korea when she was talking about demolishing the army.

      ...But Korra did fight here and made the problem worse.

      Korra is making rookie mistakes that given what she's gone through, she should have learned by now. I get it with the PTSD, she's not 100% in combat, but she's putting herself in situations she's at a disadvantage in. She's still apparently not realized the kind of weight that her title has with the society she lives in. The avatar can't just go around fighting national leaders and lose their cool, only to get stomped. When Kuvira said she's irrelevant, Korra pulling stunts like this, further validates Kuvira's words. With Kuvira being more powerful than the Avatar in a show of force, in a might-makes-right kind of world, Kuvira is right as Korra is simultaneously tanking her own image.

      Also, I normally let spelling errors slide if I understand the message, but it's "Korra" not "Korea." (This whole post I was thinking of Kim Jong-un.)

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    • I guess you don't get it at all. You keep blaming on Korra for fighting against Kuvira and saying she did have a choice but it is a fact that she didn't. You say that her position worses the situation now that she lost. What would have happened if she hadn't? What was her other option? Give up and say "Yeah, do as you please. Take Zaofu and enslave their people if you want, I'm the avatar and won't do anything." Even worse, Opal and Suyin REALLY were constantly telling her "FIGHT, KICK HER ASS. KILL HER.". They were pushing for her to fight Kuvira. Even Jinora was somehow pressing her. She was the one that told her "We need you, help us" even though Korra wasn't fully recovered. HELL EVEN MEELO WAS(but he's a kid so it's forgivable).

      And there's a thing that is a fact. Korra didn't want to fight.  If she had another option she wouldn't have fought. Obviously she knows she's isn't in shape. You make her look as if she was stupid or something, she perfectly understands her current condition. 

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    • I guess you don't get it at all. You keep blaming on Korra for fighting against Kuvira and saying she did have a choice but it is a fact that she didn't.

      Care to prove that she had zero choice in whether to fight or not? Was a bloodbender standing behind her bending her arms and legs to attack Kuvira?

      I get it was a stressful situation, but you're looking at this so incredibly linearly. Life is far more open ended than you seem to realize. Take Aang for instance, everyone believed he needed to kill Fire Lord Ozai, "that is the only option!" Aang however thought about it and found another way.

       You say that her position worses the situation now that she lost.

      Yes, and it did. Kuvira's position was further legitimized, and Korra agreed to the terms of it. Kuvira's right to Zaofu is okayed by the Avatar, because those stakes were on the table and she agreed to the terms of the duel. Thousands saw the Avatar defeated by an earthbender in one on one combat, Kuvira by right of combat, gets Zaofu and the Avatar has agreed to stop interfering with her. An added bonus if Korra goes back on that, her oath is worthless and she's further dishonored. 'Course, she already was by having her friends jump in. Imagine if Kuvira was an oathbreaker and had her friends jump in.

      What would have happened if she hadn't?

      She wouldn't have disgraced herself and her title, as well as not further legitimize Kuvira and her cause.

      What was her other option? Give up and say "Yeah, do as you please. Take Zaofu and enslave their people if you want, I'm the avatar and won't do anything." 

      That's one option. She could have bided her time, let them take the city and reclaim it later. She could meet with her friends and organize a resistence. She could discuss this with the international leaders. As someone mentioned neutral jing, taking a page from King Bumi's book, may have been the best option here. Korra's choice did not help and appears to have hurt her and her cause.

      On top of that, she's not obliged to do anything. The Avatar is a self appointed position that really only matters because its historically been stronger than everyone else. Kuvira beating the Avatar further encapsulates the very irrelevance that Kuvira attributes to the Avatar.

      Even worse, Opal and Suyin REALLY were constantly telling her "FIGHT, KICK HER ASS. KILL HER.". They were pushing for her to fight Kuvira. Even Jinora was somehow pressing her. She was the one that told her "We need you, help us" even though Korra wasn't fully recovered. HELL EVEN MEELO WAS(but he's a kid so it's forgivable).

      Cool, she was getting bad advice from children. It was still Korra's choice to act on it.

      And there's a thing that is a fact. Korra didn't want to fight.  If she had another option she wouldn't have fought. Obviously she knows she's isn't in shape. You make her look as if she was stupid or something, she perfectly understands her current condition. 

      Given her comments about "rage" I question her lack of willingness to fight, but regardless, she still chose to fight. Just because she "didn't want to" doesn't absolve her of the consequences for going ahead with it.

      If she knows she's not in any shape to fight, that further supports my claim that it was a bad idea for her to fight at the time, particularly with what was on the table.

      I've done a pretty good job at showing how she made a poor choice. Sorry you don't see it that way.

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    • WOULD YOU PLEASE QIUT IT WITH THIS ANNOYING POST ALREADY!!!

      It's old news now, just wait for what the next episodes has in store!

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    • ShironaKarius149 wrote:
      WOULD YOU PLEASE QIUT IT WITH THIS ANNOYING POST ALREADY!!!

      It's old news now, just wait for what the next episodes has in store!

      If you don't like them, don't read them.

      Also, you're the one talking about Pokemon.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      ShironaKarius149 wrote:
      WOULD YOU PLEASE QIUT IT WITH THIS ANNOYING POST ALREADY!!!

      It's old news now, just wait for what the next episodes has in store!

      If you don't like them, don't read them.

      Also, you're the one talking about Pokemon.

      Sheesh! Who'da thought that you guys can be just as Fan Nazis as Star Wars and Lord of the Rings! I was just giving my oppinion. If any of you actually acted like that in real life, who needs company!

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    • Waterbend.3.19 wrote:
      I agree. People just can't face the facts that Korea's growing as an Avatar. She's come to terms that no matter how much she wants to, fighting often makes the problems worse. I was so surprised though when Suyin was like mirroring Book 1 Korea when she was talking about demolishing the army.

      Ironically, fighting usually solved the short term problems (Amon, Unalaq, the Red Lotus). Usually it was the choices made before or after the big fights that caused problems (i.e. Korra not realizing that leaving the portals open would have zero consequences). However, some times the plot solved the problem without needing any action by the Avatar (the spirits in RC).

      Much of the problem with Korra and finding other solutions is that she usually doesn't do them. So far in book 3, Korra wants to essentially train or "fight" Toph in the swamp, fight the bender in the arena, and is forced to try and solve the Zaofu problem by fighting because her diplomatic apporach did nothing. Korra really has a long way to go for the diplomatic approach and it just sucks that we're in book 4, as having Korra solve more problems without using bending or violence would have been great to see.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      I guess you don't get it at all. You keep blaming on Korra for fighting against Kuvira and saying she did have a choice but it is a fact that she didn't.Care to prove that she had zero choice in whether to fight or not? Was a bloodbender standing behind her bending her arms and legs to attack Kuvira?

      I get it was a stressful situation, but you're looking at this so incredibly linearly. Life is far more open ended than you seem to realize. Take Aang for instance, everyone believed he needed to kill Fire Lord Ozai, "that is the only option!" Aang however thought about it and found another way.

       You say that her position worses the situation now that she lost.

      Yes, and it did. Kuvira's position was further legitimized, and Korra agreed to the terms of it. Kuvira's right to Zaofu is okayed by the Avatar, because those stakes were on the table and she agreed to the terms of the duel. Thousands saw the Avatar defeated by an earthbender in one on one combat, Kuvira by right of combat, gets Zaofu and the Avatar has agreed to stop interfering with her. An added bonus if Korra goes back on that, her oath is worthless and she's further dishonored. 'Course, she already was by having her friends jump in. Imagine if Kuvira was an oathbreaker and had her friends jump in.

      What would have happened if she hadn't?

      She wouldn't have disgraced herself and her title, as well as not further legitimize Kuvira and her cause.

      What was her other option? Give up and say "Yeah, do as you please. Take Zaofu and enslave their people if you want, I'm the avatar and won't do anything." 

      That's one option. She could have bided her time, let them take the city and reclaim it later. She could meet with her friends and organize a resistence. She could discuss this with the international leaders. As someone mentioned neutral jing, taking a page from King Bumi's book, may have been the best option here. Korra's choice did not help and appears to have hurt her and her cause.

      On top of that, she's not obliged to do anything. The Avatar is a self appointed position that really only matters because its historically been stronger than everyone else. Kuvira beating the Avatar further encapsulates the very irrelevance that Kuvira attributes to the Avatar.

      Even worse, Opal and Suyin REALLY were constantly telling her "FIGHT, KICK HER ASS. KILL HER.". They were pushing for her to fight Kuvira. Even Jinora was somehow pressing her. She was the one that told her "We need you, help us" even though Korra wasn't fully recovered. HELL EVEN MEELO WAS(but he's a kid so it's forgivable).

      Cool, she was getting bad advice from children. It was still Korra's choice to act on it.

      And there's a thing that is a fact. Korra didn't want to fight.  If she had another option she wouldn't have fought. Obviously she knows she's isn't in shape. You make her look as if she was stupid or something, she perfectly understands her current condition. 

      Given her comments about "rage" I question her lack of willingness to fight, but regardless, she still chose to fight. Just because she "didn't want to" doesn't absolve her of the consequences for going ahead with it.

      If she knows she's not in any shape to fight, that further supports my claim that it was a bad idea for her to fight at the time, particularly with what was on the table.

      I've done a pretty good job at showing how she made a poor choice. Sorry you don't see it that way.

      You know, instead of answer sentence by sentence you could answer the post as a whole. You divide my post and sometimes removes meaning of what I'm actually saying by doing so.

      You want me to prove why she didn't have a choice? I did just that on the post you answered to. I can repeat myself though. Her position doesn't allow her to just quit. Obviously she doesn't have a physical restriction, do I even need to make that clear? Aang didn't want to fight Ozai. But he was the avatar and had to do it, so he did. 

      Whether she had fought or not, the situation is the same:

      1- Either fights and loses ==> The Avatar Lost against Kuvira.

      2- Doesn't fight and leaves her do as she pleases ==> The Avatar either is too scared to fight or knows she can't win.

      What's the difference? Other than the fact that her morale is worse now that she lost(although running away wouldn't be possitive either specially for someone like Korra).

      And Meelo is the only child. Opal is around 20 years old, Su is almost 50 and Jinora is 15. They are not children and they weren't giving advice. They were almost ordering her. Yes, it was Korra's decision in the end. I said that they were pressuring her to fight, I didn't say that she was forced by them.

      Considering she has been trying to solve this peacefully and was trying to avoid conflict since she got to Zaofu(actually before getting to Zaofu too) I don't question her lack of willingness to fight. I don't consider it a choice when your position makes you do something you don't want to do. 

      Have you ever done something you didn't want to, either because your job required that or whatever? 

      Clearly we can't get to an agreement at this point. 

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    • You know, instead of answer sentence by sentence you could answer the post as a whole. You divide my post and sometimes removes meaning of what I'm actually saying by doing so.

      I do, but I'd rather go relevant text to relevant text and make it clear precisely what I'm responding to so the context is clear. I read it as a whole and consider what your overarching point seems to be. I really doubt I'm misrepresenting your position, but if you feel that I am, please point this out specifically and if I believe you can substantiate it, I'll retract the particular aspect of my comment.

      You want me to prove why she didn't have a choice? I did just that on the post you answered to. 

      You can repeat yourself if you wish, but since you didn't reasonably demonstrate the claim the first time, you'd not be making any progress in doing so.

      Her position doesn't allow her to just quit.

      Noting that I did not say she needed to "quit." I pointed out how fighting right then and there, under all those circumstances, was a bad idea. That said, why couldn't she just quit if she decided that's what she wanted to do? She (presumably) has just as much free will as the next person in her world.

      Obviously she doesn't have a physical restriction, do I even need to make that clear?

      I suspect you missed the point.

      Aang didn't want to fight Ozai. But he was the avatar and had to do it, so he did. 

      And Aang didn't want to be the Avatar and so he chose to run. A century later, he chose to play the part. He could have ran away from fighting Ozai too. He chose not to. Everyone was pretty much telling him to kill Ozai. Aang chose not to.

      Korra did not have to fight Kuvira here. She chose to. This was my point.

      Whether she had fought or not, the situation is the same:

      1- Either fights and loses ==> The Avatar Lost against Kuvira.

      2- Doesn't fight and leaves her do as she pleases ==> The Avatar either is too scared to fight or knows she can't win.


      What's the difference? Other than the fact that her morale is worse now that she lost(although running away wouldn't be possitive either specially for someone like Korra).

      Did you watch ATLA? Do you remember King Bumi? Do you remember "neutral jing?" Bumi chilled in Omashu and let the Fire Nation take over and imprison him. Aang even went to spring him out and Bumi flatly refused. He bided his time and when he saw the moment to strike, he did. And he handily reclaimed his city and went on to beat the piss out of some Fire Nation soldiers in key battles. As I outlined for you, there were options, and that would have been one potential outcome of not fighting.

      Korra didn't even need to go out there and face her. Korra could have gone out and said "we'll settle this later." Korra could have feigned join her ranks and then work from the inside. She could have helped the citizens of Zaofu and ensured their safety by overseeing the transition. There are so many things Korra could have done, but this was a terrible choice and outcome. Kuvira at least pretended to respect the position of the Avatar, Korra could have worked with that.

      And what you mention there about morale, is just one of the great reasons why Korra shouldn't have done what she did. She boosted Kuvira's allies and sank Zaofu's.

      Not fighting looks better than having allies intervene and rescue you from a duel you agreed to and still running away.

      And Meelo is the only child. Opal is around 20 years old, Su is almost 50 and Jinora is 15. They are not children and they weren't giving advice. They were almost ordering her. Yes, it was Korra's decision in the end. I said that they were pressuring her to fight, I didn't say that she was forced by them.

      Barring Opal (whom is younger than Korra), they are, what our world would consider, children. But it really doesn't matter, bad advice is bad advice. No need to be obtuse.

      They were pressuring her, soooooooooooooooo what? She still made a choice that worsened things for her and her pals.

      Considering she has been trying to solve this peacefully and was trying to avoid conflict since she got to Zaofu(actually before getting to Zaofu too) I don't question her lack of willingness to fight. I don't consider it a choice when your position makes you do something you don't want to do. 

      So, for all of what? An afternoon? She was trying to disarm this big political/military situation peacefully, without having been involved in it at all prior to them sieging up, or for the past few years of events leading up to it.

      You claim her position makes it to where she must be involved...yet, she's not been involved in any of this for the past few years, shirking this assumed responsibility. Do you not see the inconsistencies here?

      Have you ever done something you didn't want to, either because your job required that or whatever? 

      I've made hard choices and have sometimes chosen in ways I've regretted after the fact due to things I hadn't considered. Mind you, I generally do give thought to what I'm facing. However, I won't do something that I genuinely believe is wrong in the given circumstances. In a situation like this, I would not fight unless I believed Kuvira to both be wrong and that I had the power to neutralize those poised to invade Zaofu and this largely has to do with the fact that I'd look at this in the context of the war, not the battle.

      Clearly we can't get to an agreement at this point. 

      Hence the debate.

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      WampaLumpa wrote:
      Korra is psychologically weak and that was obvious since the first season. Overall, she simply doesn't have the spark of Kyoshi, Roku, or Aang when they were in their prime. This is the reason she can't harness her avatar state properly. But even though this may not be agreeable, then there's an even stronger reason: She lost her connection to the past avatars. She has no guidance. And since she's not a spiritual person to begin with so that she can regain her inner balance, I say she's going to get into a lot of trouble. Hard to say how this season will unfold...  
      No, she could access her Avatar state fine in the fight. The problem was that Korra is still going through her PTASD and the act of seeing old Avatar state self in Kuvira just caused her to lose composure. Even during the Zaheer fight, Korra was doing a decent job considering all the poison in her system so I'm not quite certain of the connection side.

      Kuvira did use metalbending on Korra, but Korra never even tried to use metalbending against Kuvira. It was just a straight up brawl, going back the movements of the players. 

      She could accces it alright. But she couldn't harness enough power out of it. Yes, she did hold her own against Zaheer; but she'd had so many chances to take him down with her avatar state before she got poisoned by him. Yet she didn't. Why indeed? 

      Of course, she's young, reckless, lacking self-esteem etc...Korra is a bit like Avatar Kuruk maybe. But I still think her overall fitness is at low key because she lost her connection to past avatars. Once again, our only reference point is Aang. When the boy stood up against Ozai and about to deliver him the killing blow, other avatars spoke through him. Others avatars, I think, gave Aang physical and mental strength. This is as good as any other speculation that is on offer in this thread. 

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    • Korra was about to drop a huge boulder to crush Kuvira so the power level wasn't the issue. Korra was almost certainly trying to take Zaheer down in that fight. She was also quite pissed about her father "dying", so I'm not quite sure about the second point.

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    • It's obvious that Korra can't control her power in the Avatar State and she told Jinora it had been a while she had fought. So I think she wasn't able to control her and felt it was wrong to kill Kuvira. After all, in the first place, she just wanted to talk with Kuvira.

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    • Just an "on-the-side," I think that people criticize Korra pretty harshly for who and what she is. While she doesn't make all of the right decisions for a given situation at a given time, she's all of what, late teens/early twenties? Not only that but prior to Season 1: Episode 1, she has been living in the poles, sheltered for much of her life. Looking at that alone, no one should be harshly critisizing her for her ignorance, life experience and lack of sound judgement. Even if she was suppose to learn from all these mistakes over the span of three seasons—now four—how would anyone expect her to readily and accurately apply what she's learned. Three different antagonists, three different situations; a young, inexperienced avatar; and a mindset that's going to take more than a few years to change.

      Inspector Incognito (wallcontribs) 15:46, November 11, 2014 (UTC)

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    • I agree with you, but I expected Toph to learn Korra some advice for her future battles...not only shout at her! And something else, do you rememeber the end of the Season 3? Zuko was in the ceremony, but Katara wasn't....Is there any chance the old Team Avatar had been disbanded??

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    • Doesn't Roku say that the Avatar State is the collective power of all the past Avatar's within the current one? If Korra lost her connection to the past Avatars, it makes sense that her Avatar State is so weak.

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    • @GranPakku: True, but think about Wan. With the Avatar State, he defeated the personification of darkness and chaos, as the very first Avatar no less. Korra is essentially the first Avatar in the new cycle so if we base the power of her state off of Wan's, there's no reason to suggest the lack of past lives was responsible for how weak it allegedly appears.

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    • Kwtsos2001 wrote:
      Is there any chance the old Team Avatar had been disbanded??

      I don't have enough information to give an accurate answer, let alone enough to make educated guess. I will say that since Aang is dead, it wouldn't be a stretch to make the assumption that the team disbanded.

      Now, on another note, I wanted to point out something (to the general audience). For those who are unfamiliar, nature abhors a vaccuum. This is true on all planes (mentally, physically and spiritually). Now, for those who are being undoubtedly harsh on Kuvira for what she's doing and the path she's taking, I would like to bring up the Earth Queen from Season 3. Though a tyrant, her presence and title kept a degree of stability within the Earth Kingdom. As soon as that city was "liberated," chaos immediately ensued. That vaccuum lead to an immediate breakdown in society.

      With the Earth Kingdom more or less under Kuvira's control, there is a degree of stability, EVEN IF Kuvira's approach is wrong. In my own personal opinion, this whole problem could have been avoided, had Su Yin took them up on the offer. Knowing her, she wouldn't have been a tyrant, nor a dictator; there probably would have been more peace than there is now.

      Here's another point (personal views included): This isn't really Korra's fight (as some have already mentioned). This has been a situation that's been developing behind the scenes, while Korra was in recovery. She has little to no idea about the intricate details of the situation, let alone the big picture. In all honesty, this is something that the leaders have to deal with, not some unstable and immature girl in her twenties, recovering physically and mentally, holding the title of the Avatar.

      One final point, in reference to the vaccuum mentioned above: some might assert that Wu should have taken the throne. I'm not going to give an answer to that because it's a sensitive situation, especially considering the fact that the two nations are ruled under different types of governments, but consider: if Wu were to be left as the rightful king, there would have still been a vaccuum, considering the fact that he's immature, inexperienced and childish. He would be likely to make the wrong decisions or be used to someone else's cause. I highly doubt stability would have lasted long in his hands.

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    • Inspector Incognito wrote:
      Just an "on-the-side," I think that people criticize Korra pretty harshly for who and what she is. While she doesn't make all of the right decisions for a given situation at a given time, she's all of what, late teens/early twenties? Not only that but prior to Season 1: Episode 1, she has been living in the poles, sheltered for much of her life. Looking at that alone, no one should be harshly critisizing her for her ignorance, life experience and lack of sound judgement. Even if she was suppose to learn from all these mistakes over the span of three seasons—now four—how would anyone expect her to readily and accurately apply what she's learned. Three different antagonists, three different situations; a young, inexperienced avatar; and a mindset that's going to take more than a few years to change.

      Inspector Incognito (wallcontribs) 15:46, November 11, 2014 (UTC)

      These are rationalizations, they do not make her actions right or good.

      Also consider, while sheltered, she's been receiving help and training from some of the most experienced people in their fields in the world. She's also been out of the poles for around five years at this point.

      To be fair, Aang was younger (biologically/mentally) and was away from the outside world for around ten times longer than her and had to solve a 100 year long war coming to a head...while learning three of his four elements.

      Amon and the Equalists, I'll give her credit, and I think she did a reasonably good job given the circumstances. For the current situation, Korra had the opportunity to be involved in events leading up to the current predicament, but she didn't and particularly since she's involving herself in it now, that's on her.

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    • GranPakku wrote:
      Doesn't Roku say that the Avatar State is the collective power of all the past Avatar's within the current one? If Korra lost her connection to the past Avatars, it makes sense that her Avatar State is so weak.

      We don't really see her Avatar State being weak post Harmonic Convergence. It seems quite potent, it's her lack of control and mental stability that is dragging it down. (She beat Kuvira down in seconds whilst in the Avatar State, and was poised for the coup de grace, but because of her mental instability, she freaked out and fell out of the Avatar State, at which point the beatdown on her from Kuvira resumed.)

      I am curious what really happened when Raava got smashed. If just Korra can't access the Avatars, if they are really not connected to Raava now, or what, but the apparent strength of the Avatar State doesn't seem to have diminished. So it doesn't really seem to add up that they're really gone, because the Avatar State (which was said to be a culmination of all previous Avatars' strength and knowledge) appears to have relatively similar strength.

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    • I'd also like to point out that Roku only said the Avatar State gave the "skills and knowledge" of the past Avatars. That does not necessarily translate to raw power. As far as I'm considered, Raava is the one who provides the actual power boost (again, think Wan).

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    • Raava is holding the four elements for the Avatar. When Wan combined with Raava, he had all of the elements, which is pretty powerful. It stands to reason that having the knowledge of all benders before would enhance bending ability greatly. When I said "strength" I was using it interchangeably with "skill" in the assumption that bending power relates to one's skill for what kind of output they'll get. Like Toph for instance was very small and her parents weren't benders, so not much of a strong family line there or anything, but her amazing bending power was (I assume) a result of her skill.

      Thing is though, the Avatar State, if not channeling previous lives for added power (or skill if you prefer), I don't even see the point, as the Avatar already is fused with Raava and already has all four elements. Where's the power boost from, if not from the previous lives? Which brings me to question if they truly truly are gone from Raava. And if they are...why does Raava have the gift of the four elements still? She was only holding them, if she "died" and lost everything she had accumulated (ie connections to the spirtis of her human hosts), why would she have those elements?

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    • The way I see it, skill refers more to the application of the elements, i.e. Aang used waterbending in the Avatar State though he had no prior practice with it. That knowledge came from the past Avatars.

      Skill is related to power, but it's an entirely separate entity. With the Dark Avatar State, Unalaq clearly had his waterbending augmented to the point he could contend with Korra who not only had the four elements but also ten thousand years of bending experience on her side. In terms of skill, Korra should have had the edge so why did she lose? Simple, Vaatu provided a stronger power boost.

      I just noticed this is kind of off-topic but if you want to discuss it further on my message wall, then feel free :)

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    • Thing is though, Raava was reduced to like nothing by the time Wan fought Vaatu. Yet Wan/Raava overpowered him.

      Either way, I guess I'll review it as I begin to watch Book 2 again before Book 3 comes out on DVD.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:

      I am curious what really happened when Raava got smashed. If just Korra can't access the Avatars, if they are really not connected to Raava now, or what, but the apparent strength of the Avatar State doesn't seem to have diminished. So it doesn't really seem to add up that they're really gone, because the Avatar State (which was said to be a culmination of all previous Avatars' strength and knowledge) appears to have relatively similar strength.

      The link to the past Avatars was severed when Raava got smashed by Vaatu. So, effectively Korra is like Wan with no past lives to call upon which means she's on her own. Whether or not those past lives are trully gone is hard to say. But, it definitely looks like that the past lives are gone. 

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Raava is holding the four elements for the Avatar. When Wan combined with Raava, he had all of the elements, which is pretty powerful. It stands to reason that having the knowledge of all benders before would enhance bending ability greatly. When I said "strength" I was using it interchangeably with "skill" in the assumption that bending power relates to one's skill for what kind of output they'll get. Like Toph for instance was very small and her parents weren't benders, so not much of a strong family line there or anything, but her amazing bending power was (I assume) a result of her skill.

      Thing is though, the Avatar State, if not channeling previous lives for added power (or skill if you prefer), I don't even see the point, as the Avatar already is fused with Raava and already has all four elements. Where's the power boost from, if not from the previous lives? Which brings me to question if they truly truly are gone from Raava. And if they are...why does Raava have the gift of the four elements still? She was only holding them, if she "died" and lost everything she had accumulated (ie connections to the spirtis of her human hosts), why would she have those elements.

      Because the avatar spirit has changed since wan and raava fused basically Korra inherited the four elements and was able to use them independentaly of Raava as supposed to Wan who recieved them from the lionturtles. Now Korra holds the elements and Raava would reabosorb them when she dies and bring them to her next life

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    • Notice, she didn't. Korra did not do any elemental bending other than the (assumedly water) purification on Vaatu and this was after she took Raava out of Vaatu, whether or not the close proximity was or was not Raava granting her bending ability, it would make sense that Korra would physically have waterbending due to her biological lineage. Perhaps Korra did inherit the four elements...but that would be pure speculation, as we have zero feats of her using anything but debatably water during her and Raava's seperation.

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    • Korra airbends into the Tree of Time.

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    • yep

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    • Tenzin was right there and may have actually done the bending propelling them both up there, possibly with individual gusts. If not, it very well could have been a minor plothole.

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    • I don't think so, she went into the tree on her own volition and plus tenzin told her not to bend the elements but the energy within herself implying that she could still bend.

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    • Again, Tenzin was right next to her and bent up there, it is very possible (and even more probable) he did that. If she hypothetically could bend any element beyond possibly water at that point, there's no reason for Tenzin to know that she was, in fact, capable of it. The statement seems to have been with the assumption she couldn't bend the elements anymore, which indicates that she filled him in on what she learned about Wan, the origins of humans bending, and Raava...if Aang himself didn't discover this and tell him years before.

      If she was able to bend the other elements without Raava, we have that not being consistent with what both the Lionturtles and Raava itself said in Wan's time. Their testimony seems reliable, as the Lionturtles were the ones that granted the powers in others and Raava knew to hold them.

      And assuming that Korra was even able to bend the four elements without Raava, that opens the door to the Avatar doesn't truly need Raava, and that humans could all become capable of bending four elements, if true, they probably could have all along.

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    • There's nothing to suggest Tenzin bent her up. He landed inside the tree first ... as skilled an Airbender master he is, I doubt Tenzin could just nonchalantly propel Korra up without even turning to face her or make any movement to do so. I'm watching the clip right now and sorry, that explanation just doesn't seem plausible.

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    • Well, Wan was able to bend the elements without Raava in him, albeit not at Avatar levels.  Since Wan and Korra are the same spirit, they should have the same abilities.  Plus, there's no reason that Tenzin should assume that Korra was unable to bend her way up to the tree herself.  

      So Raava facilitated the Avatar gaining all the bending abilities, but doesn't hold the abilities for them.  Likewise, no other bender (save Unavatu) posesses a spirit in them that allowes them to bend.  

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    • Dragonboy6491 wrote:
      There's nothing to suggest Tenzin bent her up. He landed inside the tree first ... as skilled an Airbender master he is, I doubt Tenzin could just nonchalantly propel Korra up without even turning to face her or make any movement to do so. I'm watching the clip right now and sorry, that explanation just doesn't seem plausible.

      He was right next to her and she lost what gave her the ability to bend the other elements. She landed a second after him, he could easily have sent the gusts for both of them for a small hop. He himself walked up there nonchalantly, why would this be even remotely difficult for a master airbender to do for a non airbending friend?

      I guess to me, it seems more likely than something that should be impossible from the exposition and events of an episode on the origin story of human bending and the Avatar, as Tenzin doing it is actually entirely plausible. But, I suppose an oversight is also a reasonable explanation if Korra was the source of the gust.

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    • Then again, maybe she's considered a master of air and she can?

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    • FoggyMoor wrote:
      Well, Wan was able to bend the elements without Raava in him, albeit not at Avatar levels.  Since Wan and Korra are the same spirit, they should have the same abilities.  Plus, there's no reason that Tenzin should assume that Korra was unable to bend her way up to the tree herself.  

      So Raava facilitated the Avatar gaining all the bending abilities, but doesn't hold the abilities for them.  Likewise, no other bender (save Unavatu) posesses a spirit in them that allowes them to bend.  

      Wan was bending one at a time and would have Raava swap them out for him before he switched to another element. For instance, when he fought Vaatu, he only firebent until he called for Raava to join him, after that he started chaingunning the other three elements too.

      Humans were able to hold one element. That's how all of the humans that kept the bending from the Lionturtles were. But if Korra can hold all four without a spirit helping, if a human could gain the gift of the elements, not much apparent reason why they couldn't bend all four too. Of course, the Lionturtles aren't so common now, but I wonder if there really is another source? It may not truly be tied to them, just they were one avenue to get the ability.

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    • Obviously the problem was the very addition of Raava as the Avatar Spirit, when it wasn't needed.

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      Obviously the problem was the very addition of Raava as the Avatar Spirit, when it wasn't needed.

      ^Absolutely this. 

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    • Actually the book 2 commentary does a good job explaining that Bryke originally intended for wan to hold multiple elements by himself but due to the fact they only had 22 minutes to tell his story it would be confusing to the audience to focus on which elements he was carrying and wasn't carrying so they simplified it to just one at a time while he was training with raava. Even the lion turtles quote raava must hold the power for you until you master it supports this idea

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    • Then they should have fitted it in rather than focus on other stuff? It's like the idea that there are two different ranks of Kuvira's mecha-troopers but the story doesn't bother telling us. Or who Future Industries made those new Air Bender suits, but also doesn't bother telling us. They could have also shown us (i.e. one green mecha-trooper leading a bunch of the grey ones).

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    • Maybe they'll add those details in the comics

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    • Dragonboy6491 wrote:
      I'd also like to point out that Roku only said the Avatar State gave the "skills and knowledge" of the past Avatars. That does not necessarily translate to raw power. As far as I'm considered, Raava is the one who provides the actual power boost (again, think Wan).

      My point. Which explains why Korra is mentally weak. She has no reference point. 

      I think comparing Wan and Korra would be like comparing oranges and apples. True, from the perspective of "clean start" and Raava giving the power base. But Wan went through different kinds of hurdles to collect all 4 elements, which made him a very sagacious person in the end. Korra got the elements just like any other avatar. She didn't start collecting elements, or getting training from masters by travelling on her own accord. She got her avatar training in confinement (provided by White Lotus). This clearly had an effect on her development -- she was like a "spoiled" avatar, so to speak. So different lived experiences, different mental structures. Who knows now that after all the hardship she endured, she might become a better avatar in the future.  

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    • Inspector Incognito wrote:
      Kwtsos2001 wrote:
      Is there any chance the old Team Avatar had been disbanded??

      Now, on another note, I wanted to point out something (to the general audience). For those who are unfamiliar, nature abhors a vaccuum. This is true on all planes (mentally, physically and spiritually). Now, for those who are being undoubtedly harsh on Kuvira for what she's doing and the path she's taking, I would like to bring up the Earth Queen from Season 3. Though a tyrant, her presence and title kept a degree of stability within the Earth Kingdom. As soon as that city was "liberated," chaos immediately ensued. That vaccuum lead to an immediate breakdown in society.

      With the Earth Kingdom more or less under Kuvira's control, there is a degree of stability, EVEN IF Kuvira's approach is wrong. In my own personal opinion, this whole problem could have been avoided, had Su Yin took them up on the offer. Knowing her, she wouldn't have been a tyrant, nor a dictator; there probably would have been more peace than there is now.

      Here's another point (personal views included): This isn't really Korra's fight (as some have already mentioned). This has been a situation that's been developing behind the scenes, while Korra was in recovery. She has little to no idea about the intricate details of the situation, let alone the big picture. In all honesty, this is something that the leaders have to deal with, not some unstable and immature girl in her twenties, recovering physically and mentally, holding the title of the Avatar.

      One final point, in reference to the vaccuum mentioned above: some might assert that Wu should have taken the throne. I'm not going to give an answer to that because it's a sensitive situation, especially considering the fact that the two nations are ruled under different types of governments, but consider: if Wu were to be left as the rightful king, there would have still been a vaccuum, considering the fact that he's immature, inexperienced and childish. He would be likely to make the wrong decisions or be used to someone else's cause. I highly doubt stability would have lasted long in his hands.

      Air nomads actually found a way to get around that issue; they had no established leaders, except a council of wise. It could be said that having lived natural lives, they never used their power to overwhelm another. Egalitarianism was the cornerstone of their society; precisely because they all had the same education, same access to same objects, and roughly the same level of non-attachments to any power or something that can invoke power. There's little culture gap among Air nomads, which gave them structure and order. 

      In the world of Avatar, power struggle exists, not because they were there, but because certain someone became instrumental in its inception. When Lion Turtles gave humans shelter, there weren't warring tribes and nations around. The world was in balance. Their isolation in certain pockets of the world was additionally strategic, preventing any chance encounters. Avatar Wan disrupted the balance, intervening in this cycle. In fact he started it all, first by interrupting Raava and Watu, then trying to give elements to everyone.    

      Reflecting back to Zaheer's and even Amon's philosophy, indeed, there should be no power, no class structure, nothing. But the very fact that elements are wielded freely contradicts this proposal. There will always be one element wielder trying to overwhelm another. I remember how Sozin started the 100 year war: "Fire nation got wealthy and stable; it is time to share this wealth with rest of the world" -- which later became the following dictum in Ozai's rule: "Fire, the supreme element." Now Kuvira appears to say "Metal, the supreme element." 

      It's a vicious cycle. Perhaps the only way people can unite could be that Avatar, as the only element wielder in the world, becomes people's common enemy. And this might as well have been Unalaq's idea: to create a dark avatar against which everyone could unite.  

      Clearly, the 4th season is supposed to wrap up all these connections at some point. Well, I hope so.

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    • I actually believed Sozin was initially sincere about sharing the prosperity and greatness with the world, Roku's refusal and eventual attack on Sozin may have embittered him and caused the tyranny later. He hated the Avatar after what it did to him and so he bided his time until he could kill the Avatar and with Roku dead, he used the comet later to wipe out the Air Nomads to get the next Avatar.

      I think the Avatar's involvement in that situation really helped created the problem with the Fire Nation, which was initially a benevolent plan.

      As for ending bending. Amon's plan, really may have been the best thing for their world if only it had succeeded. Korra probably could do that too, which could be an interesting choice.

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    • All tyrannies start like that. Against naysayers. Once their conquest is complete, they are no longer tyrants. They are the savior or uniter. 

      Again, as I hinted at above, it is because of the avatar the world has lost is balance. Red lotus have noticed this. I guess we really want Korra to learn something from these things, but she hasn't done a good job so far. 

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    • I think by the end of this book, she'll be stronger than she's ever been. We have to give her more time to heal

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    • Yeah. Something else involving her spiritual cleanup is going to happen which will empower her. I really want to see how she's going to take down her Avatar state self who's been following her.

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    • Waterbend.3.19 wrote:
      Yeah. Something else involving her spiritual cleanup is going to happen which will empower her. I really want to see how she's going to take down her Avatar state self who's been following her.

      I think the only way is to get rid of the hallucination Korra is by having the real Korra beat her in a fight

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    • Yes, but the hallucination Korra is now Kuvira. Korra should beat her, but not to kill her. And maybe take her bending.But I think the last episode will be more exciting and it won't be only a fight....but THE fight, the final fight. I think Korra will figure out another way to get rid of Kuvira, and finally find balance and peace.

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    • I thought she can't remove bending anymore since she lost her connection with Aang. After all, energybending was something Aang learned to do. Not Korra. It would make sense since she never used energy bending again after season 1 and when she did, she used it on the avatar state(with Aang's knowlegde and skills).  

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    • If Korra was able to energybend to create an astral projection of herself, she can most assuredly still take away bending.

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    • Oh, astral projection is energy bending? I thought it was a high level air bending skill or something anyone can do trough meditation(like entering in the spirit world). My bad if that's the case.

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    • Astral projection can be either an airbending skill or a kind of energybending.Anyway I think we haven't seen Korra energybend because there wasn't anyone to take or restore his bending.

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    • Astral project and spirit projection are two different things

      Astral Projection- The user is able to project ones spirit using energy bending note the user is able to interact with the physical world and cause damage

      Spirit Projection- an air bending move that allows an Airbender to be free from their body and move to different location the user cannot interact with the physical world and is just a soul on the move

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    • Oh, hes you're right. I was confused because both of the abilities are spiritual and their projection seemed the same. Ok, thank you. But how do you explain the fact that Korra can't energybend? Ok she lost her connection with Aang, but she had already learnt the ability.

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    • Are we sure that she can't energybend, or is it just coincidence that we haven't seen her energybend since the end of book 2? 

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    • I believe it is just a coincidence but I want to know what the others think.

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    • Remember Guru Pattik used the same ability and he was just a normal person so Korra being the avatar should have no problem energy bending Reguardless of her connection to aang. Energy bending just requires you to bend the energy within yourself aang only helped korra learn it same with the lion turtle he just imparted the knowledge needed to energy bend but the ability is within the persons soul Reguardless

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    • I know, I believe it too. But Korra can't learn any ability from her past lives or  talk to them.

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    • Yeah but aang taught her bending restoration tenzin and the tree of time taught her astral projection and toph taught her spirt tracking Basically she doesn't need the past avatars to energy bend because she's already learned it from many different sources

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    • Yes, you're right. What else could she learn from others?

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    • Not sure actually. Its hard to say what else she could learn, simply because the boundaries of energybending aren't as defined as the other bending disciplines. Can mind reading be considered a subskill of energybending? Who knows tbh. Again, the parameters aren't as clear. 

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    • I would like to see her metalbending more. I liked her metalbending skills at the episode Reunion. And it would also be awesome a fight at a beach, like when Team Avatar Aang visited the Ember Island. oh, and what's going on with Bolin? We're in the 8th episode and he hasn't arrived at Republic City yet!!

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    • Korra is actually great at metalbending :) I'm pretty proud of her. But she still has retained her offersive style. AND YES SHE CAN TAKE DOWN AVERAGE BENDERS NOW! IMPROVEMENT! 

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    • Yes, she and her abilites have improved, and she's back in action, but can she beat Kuvira? Unfortunately no. I also think that if Kuvira and Toph fight, Kuvira will win, not because she is younger, but because her metalbending skills are impressive. And what is this with those things she use to cover others' eyes. It's crazy!! Anyway, I hope Toph will learn the basics at Korra at metalbending...

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    • I think if Korra is not mindraped, she'd be able to beat Kuvira with Avatar State.

      I don't know about Toph vs Kuvira. IF it were to happen and IF Toph were to lose, I could only fathom age or hostages being the determining factor. Toph was a fantastic metalbender in her prime (with hints of her being superior to Lin and Suyin in the art even today) and still demonstrates a casual mastery of earthbending on screen. Even being younger, Kuvira would really need to be on her game to overwhelm Toph in a duel. But who knows? With King Bumi being over 100 years old and still a force to be reckoned with (during book 3 of ATLA), Toph may have aged well too and still be able to beat someone like Kuvira down. I can't imagine the plot will allow for it, but, just sayin'.

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    • Well, if there is a Toph=Yoda parallel going on, I regret to say that she wont be winning against Kuvira any time soon. But my worries lie with the fact that Yoda dies :/ If Toph dies im going to lose my sanity

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    • I actually am rewatching Star Wars right now lol

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    • No, of course not....Toph cannot die!! It would be so tragic....But I hope Kuvira won't kill Su....Or Korra!!!!! I couldn't stand it.....:'( But I hope it will be a great fight between Kuvira and Toph/Korra.

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    • I think it may be more like a King Bumi situation. She may just surrender and fight when the time is right :) #hope

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    • Yes, the typical earthbending style. But where would the action be? #yolo. But I'm not sure if Kuvira and Toph will fight at this episode. But I know for sure, that if Toph is mad with someone, the someone doesn't exist after that. :P :)

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    • I can't get it out of my head that Korra's battle against Kuvira didn't end so well. How can she stop her if these hallucinations still haunt her?

      Surely, one of the final four episodes can have Korra fix her problem. The sooner she's mentally cured, the better.

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    • I'm sure she will fix the problem, but it will be VERY difficult for her. And I don't know if Tenzin or Jinora can help her this time. She can't either be helped by her past Avatars and Toph can't do anything else. It's up to her now...

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    • I think we will get some more information this friday regarding how she is going to process the problem. 

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    • I certainly hope so. All we keep getting is Korra questioning her actions of the past with no idea what she really wants to do about the future. Other than something with balance, so the question becomes "What kind of balance will Korra achieve?"

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    • Are there any kinds of balance? I don't know. I really don't think she will find balance, at the next episode. We only watch useless episodes now...

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    • There are, it just depends on the person in question and their personal opinion on what "balance" might mean. For example, Korra decided to leave the spirit portals open so that people and spirits are together again. It's just what she though the balance should be compared to before (the separation of both worlds).

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    • Yes, but can you explain if Kuvira believe in "balance", or she doesn't believe? I'm very confused which are their goals... And I also have the feeling, she will attack to Republic City, as the city is located at Earth Kingdom-Empire....

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    • I don't think land matters to Kuvira anymore. Yes, the final battle will probably be in Republic City, but not for the fact it was founded on Earth Kingdom land. She just doesn't want Republic City ruling itself. Her goal is relatively small, like she doesn't want to make the world one nation. She just wants to take any opportunities to conquer the small cities or states because of their great potential.

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    • Can you believe this crazy thing? 3 episodes before The Stakeout I thought there shouldn't be any nations and at The Stakeout Zaheer told Korra that there shouldn't be any nations. And I was sure that Kuvira would want the same thing. Don't you think the world would be better without nations? I don't say I'm anarchist, there should be some borders and morals, but I just say...

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    • There are pros and cons of having society and anarchy. The government offers it's citizens protection against invaders a supply of food materials and jobs while a government can always abuse it's citizens rights And take complete control of its people. An anarchical system has freedom and no laws but there's no guaranteed protection and if a code or moral is broken nobody can stop it.

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    • Yes, so Toph was right. Zaheer believed in freedom and anarchy and that was a good thing, but he took his ideologists too far. That is happening now with Kuvira. At first, she just wanted to help poor states,but now, she only cares about power and have the others under control. I can't wait to find out what she will do to achieve her goal...

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    • It really isn't clear that she only cares about personal power. She may really believe that she's doing this for the greater good, like Zaheer did, only on the other end of the spectrum.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      It really isn't clear that she only cares about personal power. She may really believe that she's doing this for the greater good, like Zaheer did, only on the other end of the spectrum.

      It may also be a combination of both

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    • Could be. Who knows?

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    • Zaheer and Kuvira are kind of like raava and vaatu - Zaheer male wants to bring chaos and destroy the old world, Kuvira female wants to bring order and stability.

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    • Yes, but Kuvira doesn't restore balance and peace now,like Raava did, but she causes fear and something else: What really happened to the other states? Are they happy or terrified and servants?

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    • I know it's a stretch, I'm guessing that states that didn't conform to the Earth kingdom or gave kuvira a hard time were either sent to her camps or enslaved rather than just simply conquered. Ironically all water benders have blue eyes and most fire benders have light skin and their the ones being sent to concentration camps in the avatar world

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    • Well, think the fact the states haven't communicate with the other world,and Kuvira's army doesn't know what had happened with them, she probably wants to hide a secret. Also, the concentration camps are like those from Germany in the World War 2, but not as cruel as them?

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    • Some societies have preferred to close their ports/walls and keep to themselves, like China, Japan, a number of European city states, at various points in their histories without any particularly nefarious plans.

      From what we've seen thus far, I don't think so, I also heard some line about deportation, leading me to believe "ethnic foreigners" are rounded up to be deported. Ethnic Earth Nation people that are in "reeducation camps" being some form of rehabilitation center (in the sense of training them to fit in with the order the Earth Empire mandates). The dialogue has led me to believe there are two different sets here. How much stock should be put into it is nebulous.

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    • Well, if people from the Earth Kingdom had been taken to the cocentration camps, what they should learn from them, despite loyalty? But I don't think it was necessary to gather them, only to learn them loyalty to Kuvira. They were frightened and had no reason to rebel, because Kuvira helped them, the poor people and states. So what they should have done?

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    • I have a feeling we won't see or really hear about the camps at this point in the story. I still want to know why she's been doing some of the things we've been told.

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    • If baraz comes back to help team avatar then maybe

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    • Well, the only thing I want to know is if Korra will be powerful like she used to be before and if Toph will fight Kuvira. And I am sure she will lose. Ok she was the greatest earthbender, but now she is just old. The only reason she defeated Korra is why she was just weak and hadn't fight for a long time.

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    • Concerning the OP:

      Yes, Korra was definitely weak as she simply hadn't recovered from all the physical and psychological damage that had been inflicted on her. It was definitely foolhardy of her to take on Kuvira without much practice, but that's our Korra for you–and it's why I like her so much. 

      Even though Zaheer has helped her reconnect with Raava, I'm still not convinced that Korra has completely gotten over her trauma. I feel she'll still need to overcome the demonic apparition of her former self one last time. 

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    • Yes but the vision was her in the avatar state now that she has reconnected with raava that vision shouldn't exist because she is spiritually enlightened now.

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    • Now korra has complete control over the avatar state so phantom korra is irrelevant now

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    • Thebridge14 wrote:
      Now korra has complete control over the avatar state so phantom korra is irrelevant now

      God I really hope so ermagersh

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    • Yes, I mean, I couldn't see anymore average benders to beat Korra and it was very disappointing..... Hopefully, now everyone will trust her again, but she must prove it, by beating Kuvira once and for all. Something else now: Do you remember what was the title of the last episode of ATLA? Avatar Aang, and I thought the last episode of LoK would be named like that. I think this title woud be nicer.

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    • Now Korra is weak in diplomamacy after what happened in the spirit wilds

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    • lol, she never really was good at it to begin with though.

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    • Yes, I know right!! She must regain the spirits' trust. But how will she do that? By beating Kuvira? If she doesn't have the spirits' help and Toph's help, how will win the fight? And how do you think Raiko will protect the borders?

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    • What did she ever really do to earn the spirits' trust? I think the eel spirit really put it well, she just wants them to help her fight a human war. The only time Korra (or any Avatars we've seen really) have ever approached the spirits is when they needed something from them. In The Rift, we have a spirit say to Aang when Aang talks about being the "bridge between the humans and spirits" and the spirit in question says "the Avatar will always side with the humans. The Avatar is, after all, a human." "...there can be no balance between the spirit world and the human one." So, it's a pretty one sided relationship. We never see the Avatar just hanging out with spirits or spending much time in the spirit world, unless it's ultimately to help humans or the Avatar themelves.

      If Raiko had his way, Varrik would have developed some spirit beam technology and they'd be firing that on the Earth Empire.

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    • Blix1ms0ns wrote:
      Now Korra is weak in diplomamacy after what happened in the spirit wilds

      I dont think they would have gone with her even if she were good at diplomacy; it seems like they just have an opposition to getting invloved in human issues altogether.

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    • It could also supplement the notion that Korra isn't as influential as she could be. She might have her Raava and her powers back, but she doesn't really seem to have the clout you'd think she'd have.

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    • Well, in my opinion, no one shouldn't use spirit power. That could cause the anger of the spirits!!! Plus, well I confuse religion, but, if someone of you is Christian, don't you think that spirit who talked to Korra looked like the snake who fooled Adam and Eve? Just saying....

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    • Korra is weak. I think I'd call it her lack of technique, along with her lack of spiritual awareness, but tbh, I think they trimmed down the powers of benders and the avatar in general because otherwise the LOK would have seemed OP. Aang in his avatar state, and even without it, showed more general power and prowess at his young age, especially having only learned all the elements in a year, compared to Korra.

      OFC, there's also the issue that originally the avatar state worked as a unity of all the past benders, whereas the LOK series degenerated that into where the avatar isn't actually using that unity, but relies more on their skills and power alone. Theoretically, Roku, in LOK, wouldn't have been able to bend at all through the avatars body as he did in A:TLAB. Plus, in Aangs final fight, he mentions "Firelord Ozai, you and your forefathers have devastated the balance of this world, and for that, we shall pay the ultimate price", aka, avatar Aang and all his past reincarnations were going to use their power(s) to kill him, but Aang interferred and prevented them doing it. This, for me, confirms that where in A:TLAB all avatars past and future worked together in unity, it changed for LOK.

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    • Well, Korra hadn't communicate with her past lifes for long, only for 3 months(!!) and, apparently, didn't learn anything from them, except Aang, but still. Korra managed to defeat both Unalaq and the Red Lotus with humans' help and advice. Also, I agree that firebending and waterbending are weaker, but think about the battles between Unalaq and Team Avatar and Tenzin's, Jinora's and Zaheer's airbending. Also, the creators of LoK give emphasis on metalbending, not earthbending. Also, non-benders are more powerful now. New techniques were discovered, like spiritbending, lavabending and bloodbending at day. So I can't exactly compare these series. Any ideas?

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    • Harmonic Convergance happened over three years ago at the point in the story we're at.

      Wait, fire and waterbending are weaker?

      Metalbending is a type of earthbending.

      Spiritbending was known, according to the lionturtle, it was what they bent before the elements. Lavabending was known by Avatars, unclear if others (though, probably was, just rare). We've not seen bloodbending during the day until LoK though, so perhaps that was new.

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    • Fire bending and water bending aren't weaker. The reason it seems like that is that the fire nation is pretty much isolated from world affairs now so we don't get to see many fire bending masters fight. Water bending isn't weaker just look at Unalaqs and minghuas capabilities. Just look at what general iroh did back in book 1 his fire bending was sick. I guess you could argue that the general public has lost the martial art form of bending. I mean if you compare Wans fire bending to most of the fire-bending characters bending in korra you'll notice a difference in skill and fluency because he learned from a dragon

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Harmonic Convergance happened over three years ago at the point in the story we're at.

      Wait, fire and waterbending are weaker?

      Metalbending is a type of earthbending.

      Spiritbending was known, according to the lionturtle, it was what they bent before the elements. Lavabending was known by Avatars, unclear if others (though, probably was, just rare). We've not seen bloodbending during the day until LoK though, so perhaps that was new.

      Energybending, not spirit bending....they are separate abilities, or rather spiritbending is likely a subset of energybending.

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    • I don't think spirit bending is an official thing do u mean spirit purification which I'm guessing is water bending with a little spiritual / energy stuff thrown in. It's pretty cool each element has a spiritual ability now Water has spirit purification Fire has spirit reading Earth has spirit sensing like when korra found wuu and air has spirit projection

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    • Well, the LoK video game referred to the spiritual purification as "spiritbending", so I think it's the canon term now. but don't quote me on that.

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    • Ur probaly right but anyway I don't think what I said about earth having a spirit skill is right because the guru used the same ability to sense appa through the ground and he wasn't an earth bender, so the question is shouldn't energy sensing be added to energy bending as a subskill

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    • My mistake, I mixed this up likely because of how I view this: Energybending was what the lionturtle was talking about and I'm inclined to believe the technique learned from Toph and the purification from Unalaq are forms of energybending. Though, maybe everything is really just subsets of energybending.

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    • First of all, spiritbending is both a type of energybending and a sub-skill of waterbending. Secondly, most of the public has weak skills because they have been learning the pro-bending style. I'm not a fan of this style. Ok you learn how to fight with others, but it's very restrictive.... Iroh( United Forces General), had learn te best style, the original, from his grandfather. I don't think both of his parents are firebenders. But I don't understand how he can use the jet propulsion(  do you remember? firebending), when neither Zuko nor Iroh don't know how to use the technique. FInally, metalbending is stronger because it has inspired many people and is very popular.

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    • Pro vs traditional seems to be the former is faster and more precise, the traditional is slower but can have more power. About Mako and Bolin, they bend very differently from how they do in the ring, when they are outside of the ring at times. While we don't see as much of the huge bending feats we did in ATLA, it seems to lend well to dueling with quick attacks.

      We don't know that they never learned it, only that they never showed it. (Noting that I am not saying that they definitely know it.)

      Inspiring people and being popular does not make something like this stronger than something else.

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    • SpiritBending wrote:
      OFC, there's also the issue that originally the avatar state worked as a unity of all the past benders, whereas the LOK series degenerated that into where the avatar isn't actually using that unity, but relies more on their skills and power alone. Theoretically, Roku, in LOK, wouldn't have been able to bend at all through the avatars body as he did in A:TLAB. Plus, in Aangs final fight, he mentions "Firelord Ozai, you and your forefathers have devastated the balance of this world, and for that, we shall pay the ultimate price", aka, avatar Aang and all his past reincarnations were going to use their power(s) to kill him, but Aang interferred and prevented them doing it. This, for me, confirms that where in A:TLAB all avatars past and future worked together in unity, it changed for LOK.

      Interesting observations. I thought that the final battle in The Last Airbender was really the power of all Avatars combined, without Aang being conciously in control. It was demonstrated before that the Avatar State could be controlled unilaterally and I assumed that this had to do with the chakras (in Aang's case). Until the Avatar mastered the Avatar State, the spirits of the previous Avatars would take control of the Avatar when in danger, which is why Aang always showed superior bending and fighting skills when he entered it (this really wasn't his fighting style, it was too aggressive and too cunning). The final blow was in that sense the point where Aang, for the first time, took control himself and prevented the spirits of his predecessors from killing the Fire Lord. After that he entered the Avatar State again to extinguish the fires. I thought that was really symbolic.

      In The Legend of Korra, we never saw that she entered the Avatar State before the end of Book 1. I assumed at that point that she already mastered it, basically the final revelation of the series. This explains why she could enter the Avatar State at will after that and control all her actions within the Avatar State (restoring bending abilities, using it to win the race against Tenzin's kids). In that sense I don't think that there is a difference between both Avatars, because we just never saw Aang fight in the Avatar State while fully controlling it himself. The only question that remains is whether Korra's successor will be able to rely on the Avatar State as Aang could or that they need to master it first before, like Korra. Since the connection is broken, it would make sense that only Korra's spirit could help them out when in danger.

      So in short: the power of the Avatar State is twofold: Raava and the unity of past Avatars. The Avatar can enter the Avatar State when in danger (until they master it; child-safety if you will) and can draw upon the spirits of their predecessors to control it. Once they assume unilateral control, the unity is no longer there. This would fit with Aang if we assume that he wasn't conciouscly controlling the Avatar State when battling the Fire Lord (which is a reasonable assumption, considering that he had to force himself out of the Avatar State to spare him). That was also the moment when he finally took control himself and was able to enter it at will to extinguish the fires.

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    • Notice that the first attempt to get Bataar Jr to spill the beans was physical force. Notice that she somehow gets increased physical strength? Wtf was with that? 

      With the Avatar state: I think it varies, largely because of several factors. Let's just focus on this control aspect for now. The lack of control over the avatar state forces the user (largely just Aang, as Korra never really had a problem with the state) to act in the defense of the avatar. You could say that because Aang still had not master the state, he was forced to end it to stop the fight.

      We also have to remember that Raava isn't even a part of the story during ATLA.

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    • I thought about that too right when I saw it happening. It may have been her metalbending the chair up. If not, she must get a physical boost too.

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    • It's very out of place, so i'll just blame the direction (why not just let her lift him by the collar or something reasonable?). It looks like a basic wooden chair. Even with metalbending, there's still a human being weighing it down, although Kuvira was good enough lift those bandits with ease.

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    • Thebridge14
      Thebridge14 removed this reply because:
      Accidental post
      04:41, December 13, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • the avatar state boosts physical strength as well why is this a shock. I mean when Korras in the avatar state she's channeling raava so she basically has strength of the light spirit plus herself. Also don't forget when korra used the avatar state against the red lotus she physically broke out of the chains implying that it boosts physical power as well.

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    • This may be irrelevant, but I have a very strong feeling that Vaatu won't make a reappearance. Quite a letdown.

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    • But raava probably will

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    • Thebridge14 wrote:
      But raava probably will

      She already did.

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    • i mean in the finale

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    • Thebridge14 wrote:
      i mean in the finale

      Either way, Vaatu never made a real appearance once so far. I highly doubt he'll appear in the finale. It may be possible, but it's unlikely.

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    • ISIG wrote:
      Interesting observations. I thought that the final battle in The Last Airbender was really the power of all Avatars combined, without Aang being conciously in control. It was demonstrated before that the Avatar State could be controlled unilaterally and I assumed that this had to do with the chakras (in Aang's case). Until the Avatar mastered the Avatar State, the spirits of the previous Avatars would take control of the Avatar when in danger, which is why Aang always showed superior bending and fighting skills when he entered it (this really wasn't his fighting style, it was too aggressive and too cunning). The final blow was in that sense the point where Aang, for the first time, took control himself and prevented the spirits of his predecessors from killing the Fire Lord. After that he entered the Avatar State again to extinguish the fires. I thought that was really symbolic.

      In The Legend of Korra, we never saw that she entered the Avatar State before the end of Book 1. I assumed at that point that she already mastered it, basically the final revelation of the series. This explains why she could enter the Avatar State at will after that and control all her actions within the Avatar State (restoring bending abilities, using it to win the race against Tenzin's kids). In that sense I don't think that there is a difference between both Avatars, because we just never saw Aang fight in the Avatar State while fully controlling it himself. The only question that remains is whether Korra's successor will be able to rely on the Avatar State as Aang could or that they need to master it first before, like Korra. Since the connection is broken, it would make sense that only Korra's spirit could help them out when in danger.

      So in short: the power of the Avatar State is twofold: Raava and the unity of past Avatars. The Avatar can enter the Avatar State when in danger (until they master it; child-safety if you will) and can draw upon the spirits of their predecessors to control it. Once they assume unilateral control, the unity is no longer there. This would fit with Aang if we assume that he wasn't conciouscly controlling the Avatar State when battling the Fire Lord (which is a reasonable assumption, considering that he had to force himself out of the Avatar State to spare him). That was also the moment when he finally took control himself and was able to enter it at will to extinguish the fires.

      Interesting theory, but lacks basis for LoK. LoK, the avatar state is mentioned to be a booster rocket of energy, not the avatars or their skills working in harmony as it was stated to be in A:TLAB. A defense mechanism for the avatar to control. Theoretically, yes, the avatar state Aang was entering prior to his fight before Ozai were uncontrolled, and likely a defense mechanism by the other avatars (although, again, in LoK I still feel that this changed), but by the end of book 2, Aang had been about to enter the controlled avatar state. When Ozai knocked his back into the stone, Aang unlocked his final chakra. That was him gaining control over the avatar state. If he hadn't gained control, I don't think the fight would have gone as well, nor do I feel Aang could have exited out of the state by will alone. For me, this ruined the continuity between A:TLAB and LoK.

      As for the whole waterbending and firebending thing above, lavabending existed prior to A:TLAB, just as a rare ability. Roku used it after taking control of Aang. Firebending itself in A:TLAB is focused on using your anger and hatred. In LoK, they use other methods for the inspiration in their bending, which likely resulted in less powerful bending. Waterbending is on and off, sometimes it seems strong, sometimes it doesn't. TBH, again, Korra doesn't seem that powerful in the bending arts. Katara and Aang showed great power in their waterbending. Korra sometimes seems powerful, and at other times, weak. Same with earthbending, although earthbending seems far weaker than in A:TLAB. As for airbending, it's hard to find a comparison. There weren't any novice airbenders in order to tell how powerful airbending was in A:TLAB, and as Aang was an airbending master that exceeded the strength of Tenzin, you can't compare him to the other airbenders in LoK, although Tenzin has shown himself quite powerful and capable.

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    • The power of the AS comes from raava but the skill and knowledge comes from the past avatars, skill and power are sepperate things. When Aang unblocked the last chakra on the rock he lacked control over the avatar state as he didnot willing enter it. Once the Chakra was unlocked The avatar state was triggerd because aang was almost killed by ozai, it was the defense mechanism part. Plus it was evidence that aang didnt have control until he used the brief glow avatar state when he estinguished the fires because prior to that he had always been in the continous avatar state.

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    • The brief glow isn't considered a controlled avatar state. That's using the avatar state to gain brief amounts of power and knowledge from the past avatars (in the case of Aang) in order to accomplish a singular task. While it is a part of controlling the avatar state, it isn't the controlled state at all. The continuous avatar state is not an uncontrollable instinctive entity. Korra has used it several times (although in LoK, it became a booster rocket of power instead, and the writers changed how it worked). The continuous avatar state is a way of constantly channeling the amount of energy, rather than using a small amount of knowledge and power given from a specific avatar(s) in order to accomplish something. In the case of the battle against Ozai, the continuous state was more effective until the very end of the battle, where Aang chose to exit the avatar state than allow all the past avatars to dictate the decision for the battle.

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    • Actually the brief glow is considered mastered as Bryke confirmed it in the book 2 commentary for The cross Roads of destiny. I get what you mean that you can have control while in the continuous avatar state As wan used a controlled continuous avatar state to fight vaatu. The writers never changed how it works they just explained the source of the power but all the knowledge and skill comes from the past avatars that's why aang was able to use those insane bending feats while korra just uses it to boost her power because she has no past lives.

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    • Well, Aang mastered the Avatar State during his battle with Ozai,right?Right. And all the previous times, he entered the Avatar State because of his brief. But I can't understand how he entered the Avatar State by will when he made that giant air sphere that iced him and Appa. He didn't learn from his mentors how to control it, did he? I mean, he should have first mastered all the elements and then control it. All his previous Avatars learn this ability, after they learnt the elements...

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    • Kwtsos2001 wrote:
      Well, Aang mastered the Avatar State during his battle with Ozai,right?Right. And all the previous times, he entered the Avatar State because of his brief. But I can't understand how he entered the Avatar State by will when he made that giant air sphere that iced him and Appa. He didn't learn from his mentors how to control it, did he? I mean, he should have first mastered all the elements and then control it. All his previous Avatars learn this ability, after they learnt the elements...

      You really should have a look at Avatar State, it is explained there. 'Mastering' the Avatar State means that the Avatar can consciously control and willingly enter it, but until they master it, they can enter it reflexively when in danger or in situations of intense emotion. When the latter happens, the past Avatars control the Avatar State for them, hence the superiour bending. Aang didn't control the Avatar State himself, because we know that he didn't master it at the time, perhaps it even was the very first time that he entered it.

      The disagreement lies with the point at which Aang is said to have mastered the Avatar State. We know for certain that he didn't master it before he spoke to Pathik at the end of Book 2 and we also know for certain that he had mastered it after his battle with Ozai, when he extinguished the fires. In my opinion, I think his realisation came right before he attempted the killing blow on Ozai; when he left the Avatar State before the strike hit Ozai. That means during the battle, he entered the Avatar State reflexively. My own evidence for that would be: the already mentioned constant glowing eyes (reflexive) as opposed to sporadic glowing eyes (mastery), the superiour bending techniques (Aang didn't have the knowledge and skill), Aang's very aggressive fighting style (he was known to have a more defensive and evasive fighting style) and the attempted killing blow. I think his belief that killing is not the solution was so strong that he could finally take control over the Avatar State, hence the point at which the mastery was completed.

      I think that Aang didn't really finish opening the last chakra in Book 2. When he was attempting to do it and entered the Avatar State, he was not actually controlling it yet. Before he could, Azula already killed him. His chi was blocked as a result and he couldn't enter the Avatar State at all. When Ozai pushed him against the rock, the block was lifted and the Avatar State kicked in reflexively (it was pretty much instant). He assumed control later, as I  described.

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    • I thought he opened the chakra in book two but Azula shocked him and reblocked it. When it was reopened in book 3 he was immediately forced into the avatar state by ozai making it the reflexive avatar state which he couldn't control, I'm pretty sure even a fully realized avatar can be forced into the avatar state by physical trama and have no control over it . Like it could be argued korra had no control over the avatar state when she was poisoned it was instead raava piloting her body

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