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  • I actually can’t believe people are actually taking Kuvira's sideeven after the latest episode, so I want to address the fact some think she’s not the villain and is completely justified in her actions. Do you know who else took advantage of a broken nation, promised all its people a better standard of living condition, was a charismatic speaker, loathed the idea of a monarchy due to the fact it was 'weak' and threw their opposition into prison camps? Adolf Hitler. Kuvira is basically an analogue for Hitler's early years of ruling. Think about it. After WWI Germany was a mess so along comes Hitler who promises to all people of all classes that he will heal Germany and for the most part he manages to improve a lot of aspects of German life. After the assassination of the Earth Queen and the anarchy in the Earth Kingdom Kuvira steps up to repair the damage done and rebuild the Earth Kingdom. Hitler was loved by the masses despite his intimidating exterior just like Kuvira. Hitler also pressured the development of new technologies just like Kuvira. Hitler changed the laws of Germany so that he could become a dictator and didn’t have to answer to President Hindenburg. Kuvira usurped power from Prince Wu so she wouldn’t have to deal with a King being above her. You see what I mean. Kuvira may seem like a good candidate to lead the Earth Kingdom but she’s just one step away from becoming another Ozai or Chin. Even Kuvira’s offers to provinces in the Earth Kingdom to join her or perish parallels to Hitler’s policies. Any opposing political party he either absorbed or destroyed. Kuvira uses fear mongering to get what she wants and straight up threatens to attack Zaofu unprovoked. I have no idea how anyone at this point can think Kuvira is a liberal leader who just uses tough love. At best she’s a dictator, at worst she’s an autocrat and I can’t wait for Korra to give her a taste of her own medicine.  

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    • Had Wu been given power, I think he would have another case of Long Feng disease on his hands. Everybody would have tried to grab power from him.

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    • The fact is that there are currently no good options for the Earth Kingdom as far as leaders go.  On the one hand we have Kuvira who is obviously an aspiring warlord who is pretty much carving out an empire by her own hand Conan style, and who will almost certainly go to further and further extreems to get what she wants.  On the other hand we have Wu, for whom the term Incompetent would be considered a compliment, and he would easily be nothing more than a puppet on the throne while likely corrupt groups *cough* Dai-Li *cough* would easily sway and manipulate, ultimately to terrible ends.  Either way, the people are likely to suffer no matter which option, and they seem to be currently too broken up and chaotic to attempt to form a more democratic government at this time. 

      So ultimately it comes down to a choice between bad option A or bad option B.  Do we take the side of the competent but likely power hungry would-be dictator who gets stuff done but may ultimately turn the whole world against them, or do we take the side of the puppet and simply go back to the way things were with an incompetent/useless monarch on the throne who ultimately drives the nation further into their namesake?

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    • Yeah like Hitler she bribed and coerced territories to his empire. He did this until he there was no more way to do it. Then he declared war on Poland. And the rest is history. Will Kuriva do the same? Zaofu, maybe Omashu, etc.

      However she is also similar to Napoleon

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    • I think she will be established as an absolute villain when the spirit root device turns out to be some WMD.

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    • She is a pretty good analogue to Hitler and the Dragon Emperor.

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    • she's not genocidal tho

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    • I don't think we meant she was homicidal, only comparing her to Hitler in his early conquests. However, she might reveal that shes genocidal... But chances are most likely not.

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    • Her quote of "getting what she wants" tells me she will step on anybody who gets in her way so she may be a genocidal one in a military way such as attacking a city through seige weapon and etc.

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    • I have to say. She is worse than Ben Yusuf in El Cid: The Legend. I mean... she torture people and never let them go to die. At least, Yusuf just killed them in the final with one slice of his sword and let them 'passed' away.

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    • I'm fed up with people comparing Kuvira to Hitler because he is so famous. The situation is different with every authoritarian ruler. A better but less-known example would be China, which is generally associated with the Earth Kingdom. When Hitler seized power, Germany was already a republic. Unification wasn't Germany's problem, while there was chaos after the last Chinese dynasty crumbled. Japan created a puppet state for the last Emperor of Qing in northeastern China. This could refer to Raiko wanting Wu to be in charge in order to keep the Earth Kingdom weak. Moreover, Kuvira doesn't seem to discriminate against people who are disabled or from another nation, at least her goal isn't to "clean" her Empire to become "pure".

      Although Bryke confirmed that Kuvira is the antagonist, this season is not a matter of good vs bad. And I assume that the solution won't be "the one defeats the other". Korra is doing it right. When Kuvira asks her to talk to Suyin, Korra doesn't contradict her and stubbornly side with Zaofu. She's there to keep balance (the Book's title). It seems that it's rather Suyin who's going to make the situation worse by attacking first.

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    • Kuvira is Napoleon.

      Also, people seem to be a bit confused as to what the word "genocide" means.

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    • Unlike these dictators that people keep comparing her to, she can be reasoned with.

      Korra will find a way.

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    • Ifnsman wrote:
      Unlike these dictators that people keep comparing her to, she can be reasoned with.

      Korra will find a way.

      I personally don't think Korra's problem was she used fighting to solve everything. It is that she always let her problems  escalate. There would have not been a season two had Korra taken Unalaque's bending away the second she knew he was corrupt.She could have activated the avatar state before she was mercury poisoned and avoided the 3 year recovery time.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      Kuvira is Napoleon.

      Also, people seem to be a bit confused as to what the word "genocide" means.

      I think she is more like evil female version of El Cid.

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    • I saw a blog post going into detail on how, considering everything surrounding the situation, Napoleon is the best comparison:

      • Decadent, incompetent monarch is killed, leaving a power vacuum.
      • The kingdom dissolves into anarchy.
      • Someone steps in and restores order.
      • The above individual is asked to step down, and refuses.
      • The above individual declares their former kingdom an empire.
      • The above individual, on behalf of said empire, starts threatening the rest of the world.
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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      I saw a blog post going into detail on how, considering everything surrounding the situation, Napoleon is the best comparison:
      • Decadent, incompetent monarch is killed, leaving a power vacuum.
      • The kingdom dissolves into anarchy.
      • Someone steps in and restores order.
      • The above individual is asked to step down, and refuses.
      • The above individual declares their former kingdom an empire.
      • The above individual, on behalf of said empire, starts threatening the rest of the world.

      While I agree that it matches very well, this scenario (corrupt->anarchic->pacified->empire) happened more than once.

      One significant difference: France didn't descend into chaos due to Louis XVI execution: it was just a symptom, while in the Avatar world, we see it as being the cause. That's not a bug, it's a feature: Avatar is a world of heroes, where individuals matter a lot more than they do in our world. And the same could be said for all the other bullet points.

      Finally, Kuvira IS a villain, that's absolutely certain now! Look at the way she stands! Can't she turn her body so that it points to the same place her eyes are looking at?

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    • Godwin's Law. Please stop shoving Hitler everywhere.


      Kuvira is more analogous to the chinese warlords, all things considered. Also unlike Hitler, she's not an artist and/or motivated by oppurtinism and pettiness, she pretty much always forced her way in for the sake of what she believes to be a righteous cause.

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    • Falconfly wrote:
      Godwin's Law. Please stop shoving Hitler everywhere.


      Kuvira is more analogous to the chinese warlords, all things considered. Also unlike Hitler, she's not an artist and/or motivated by oppurtinism and pettiness, she pretty much always forced her way in for the sake of what she believes to be a righteous cause.

      Like what I am said before. She is more like evil female version of El Cid.

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    • Falconfly wrote:
      Godwin's Law. Please stop shoving Hitler everywhere.


      Kuvira is more analogous to the chinese warlords, all things considered. Also unlike Hitler, she's not an artist and/or motivated by oppurtinism and pettiness, she pretty much always forced her way in for the sake of what she believes to be a righteous cause.

      Wait, Kuvira was a part of suyin's dance troup. Dance is a fine art last time I checked.

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    • Also, how do you know what Hitler was motivated by? It could have not been *opportunism* or pettiness. It's possible he was just plain delusional. Not agreeing with the Hitler Kuvira comparisons (although if she had a postmark she would look identical) but the refutation isn't convincing.

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    • Fireshadowz wrote:
      Also, how do you know what Hitler was motivated by? It could have not been *opportunism* or pettiness. It's possible he was just plain delusional. Not agreeing with the Hitler Kuvira comparisons (although if she had a postmark she would look identical) but the refutation isn't convincing.

      Hitler was most likely motivated (at least in the beginning) by parental issues, combined with a healthy dose of racism and exagerated nationalism. But let's be clear: his motivations are completely irrelevant to the comparison. After all that we have seen, what are Kuvira's motivations?

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    • LM3014 wrote:
      Fireshadowz wrote:
      Also, how do you know what Hitler was motivated by? It could have not been *opportunism* or pettiness. It's possible he was just plain delusional. Not agreeing with the Hitler Kuvira comparisons (although if she had a postmark she would look identical) but the refutation isn't convincing.
      Hitler was most likely motivated (at least in the beginning) by parental issues, combined with a healthy dose of racism and exagerated nationalism. But let's be clear: his motivations are completely irrelevant to the comparison. After all that we have seen, what are Kuvira's motivations?

      Based on the flashback, she at least initially was concerned with people's public safety. Now, it's hard to know for sure, but I think Toph's little speech about each villain having a good idea tainted by extremism probably spells out her current motivations.

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    • She can be extreme if something doesn't go her way. But, she actually is smooth talker especially towards Korra who doesn't know what to think initially. Just show's you that she's devoted to her Empire and restoring order. Also Korra was lost within herself for a few years so she couldn't restore the balance Kuvira did. 

      However, I think Kuvira's balance might be more extreme than it should be. Afterall we do learn more about what happens to the people after they're first visit; occording to Opal. Very similar to Nazi Germany without the Homicidal part. But, than again those could be rumors or just Opals opinion. But, since she's likely revisted towns in the Earth Kingdom her statement might be true. 

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    • Trevor MacEwan wrote:
      She can be extreme if something doesn't go her way. But, she actually is smooth talker especially towards Korra who doesn't know what to think initially. Just show's you that she's devoted to her Empire and restoring order. Also Korra was lost within herself for a few years so she couldn't restore the balance Kuvira did. 

      However, I think Kuvira's balance might be more extreme than it should be. Afterall we do learn more about what happens to the people after they're first visit; occording to Opal. Very similar to Nazi Germany without the Homicidal part. But, than again those could be rumors or just Opals opinion. But, since she's likely revisted towns in the Earth Kingdom her statement might be true. 

      Kurvira's shown violent tendencies, however.  She uses her power, and fear to make people submit to her will.  She hasn't been shown as homicidal. Not yet.  Hitler didn't seem homicidal at first  He proved to be a leader for Germany during the Weimar Republic.  He was what they needed. 

      Heck, Bolin mentioning that a town they "integrated" didn't have running water, and after joining the Earth Empire, they got satomobiles.  If it weren't for Hitler, the company, Volkswagon, wouldn't exist.  He encouraged an ideal of a perfect home, where everyone could afford a nice car.  And that lead to an important development in Germany's economy (an economy that Hitler fixed, by the way).  Bolin pointing that out was just another hint towards who she may very well be based off of. 

      "Reeducation camps," threats for states to join, and militarization through the idea of supremacy, and former glory.  The thing that made Hitler so successful in getting so many Germans on his side was that he played off of their loyalty to their country.  They worked for him because they loved their country.  He didn't preach hatred towards other countries.  He preached a twisted form of love for Germany, and for the soldiers families.  Hatred was thrown into the mix, but towards certian peoples: "gypsies," Jews, and other "weird" groups for being dangerous to their country, and anyone who was considered "not patriotic enough."  And that seems to be the case with Kuvira's followers.  Considering she's threatening to throw Bolin into, essentially, a concentration camp for speaking his mind and not agreeing with her, who's to say she hasn't done it to other people?  ...Actually, she has.  "Dissenters," any who don't agree.  They already suggested it in dialogue. 

      Ignoring the obvious dictator parallel, Kuvira matches up pretty well with Hitler outside of his conquest to claim territory for Germany, which is, of course, WWII.  I tried to match her up with other dictators in similar situations, but none fit as well as Hitler does.

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    • Angry Opal

      "Dissenters are sent to who knows where!"





      Clearly Opal has been around the Earth Empire to know people are being enslaved but no one knows where the dissenters are sent.

      If no one has found the dissenters, maybe they were killed off. Kuvira was completely willing to kill Varrick

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    • Thinklogic wrote:

      Clearly Opal has been around the Earth Empire to know people are being enslaved but no one knows where the dissenters are sent.

      If no one has found the dissenters, maybe they were killed off. Kuvira was completely willing to kill Varrick

      She was completely willing to threat Varrick. Killing him would be a waste of talent, enslaving him isn't. And Kuvira seems like the type that won't waste talents, if you know what I mean.

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    • LM3014 wrote:

      Thinklogic wrote:

      Clearly Opal has been around the Earth Empire to know people are being enslaved but no one knows where the dissenters are sent.

      If no one has found the dissenters, maybe they were killed off. Kuvira was completely willing to kill Varrick

      She was completely willing to threat Varrick. Killing him would be a waste of talent, enslaving him isn't. And Kuvira seems like the type that won't waste talents, if you know what I mean.

      Im curious why Kuvira hasnt tried disposing of Opal yet

      "Dissenters are sent away"

      -Opal disagreed with Kuvira in "All these years"

      -Pointed out Kuvira enslaved camps, something Kuvira tried to keep secret from Bolin\

      -Weakens Bolin's loyalty to Kuvira

      -And like her family, dissapproves Kuvira's dominance

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    • PaladinLillith wrote:

      I tried to match her up with other dictators in similar situations, but none fit as well as Hitler does.

      There are many that fit better, actually, considering that she's, y'know, not committing genocide at this point.

      Seriously: the only circumstance under which comparisons to Hitler are not invocations of Godwin's law are those in which genocide is being committed.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:

      PaladinLillith wrote:

      I tried to match her up with other dictators in similar situations, but none fit as well as Hitler does.

      There are many that fit better, actually, considering that she's, y'know, not committing genocide at this point.

      Seriously: the only circumstance under which comparisons to Hitler are not invocations of Godwin's law are those in which genocide is being committed.

      Meaning we can't really compare Hitler to 1941 Hitler?

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    • There are a few parts missing from the Napoleon analogy. Kuvira disrespects all of her adopted family besides Batar Jr. where as Napoleon promoted all his brothers to places of honour.  

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    • Though seriously, I want to see a photoshoped Napoleon hat and a photoshoped post mark and see which one is more resembleing.

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    • Thinklogic wrote:
      LM3014 wrote:

      Thinklogic wrote:

      Clearly Opal has been around the Earth Empire to know people are being enslaved but no one knows where the dissenters are sent.

      If no one has found the dissenters, maybe they were killed off. Kuvira was completely willing to kill Varrick

      She was completely willing to threat Varrick. Killing him would be a waste of talent, enslaving him isn't. And Kuvira seems like the type that won't waste talents, if you know what I mean.
      Im curious why Kuvira hasnt tried disposing of Opal yet

      "Dissenters are sent away"

      -Opal disagreed with Kuvira in "All these years"

      -Pointed out Kuvira enslaved camps, something Kuvira tried to keep secret from Bolin\

      -Weakens Bolin's loyalty to Kuvira

      -And like her family, dissapproves Kuvira's dominance

      Because murdering an airbender is the sure fire way to get the rest of the world to turn against you. Especially now that airbenders actually help people instead of looking down from their mountain temples.

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    • Falconfly wrote:
      Thinklogic wrote:
      LM3014 wrote:

      Thinklogic wrote:

      Clearly Opal has been around the Earth Empire to know people are being enslaved but no one knows where the dissenters are sent.

      If no one has found the dissenters, maybe they were killed off. Kuvira was completely willing to kill Varrick

      She was completely willing to threat Varrick. Killing him would be a waste of talent, enslaving him isn't. And Kuvira seems like the type that won't waste talents, if you know what I mean.
      Im curious why Kuvira hasnt tried disposing of Opal yet

      "Dissenters are sent away"

      -Opal disagreed with Kuvira in "All these years"

      -Pointed out Kuvira enslaved camps, something Kuvira tried to keep secret from Bolin\

      -Weakens Bolin's loyalty to Kuvira

      -And like her family, dissapproves Kuvira's dominance

      Because murdering an airbender is the sure fire way to get the rest of the world to turn against you. Especially now that airbenders actually help people instead of looking down from their mountain temples.

      In "The Calling" didnt those Earth Generals say Kuvira want all of Tenzin's children handed over?

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    • Thinklogic wrote:
      Falconfly wrote:
      Thinklogic wrote:
      LM3014 wrote:

      Thinklogic wrote:

      Clearly Opal has been around the Earth Empire to know people are being enslaved but no one knows where the dissenters are sent.

      If no one has found the dissenters, maybe they were killed off. Kuvira was completely willing to kill Varrick

      She was completely willing to threat Varrick. Killing him would be a waste of talent, enslaving him isn't. And Kuvira seems like the type that won't waste talents, if you know what I mean.
      Im curious why Kuvira hasnt tried disposing of Opal yet

      "Dissenters are sent away"

      -Opal disagreed with Kuvira in "All these years"

      -Pointed out Kuvira enslaved camps, something Kuvira tried to keep secret from Bolin\

      -Weakens Bolin's loyalty to Kuvira

      -And like her family, dissapproves Kuvira's dominance

      Because murdering an airbender is the sure fire way to get the rest of the world to turn against you. Especially now that airbenders actually help people instead of looking down from their mountain temples.
      In "The Calling" didnt those Earth Generals say Kuvira want all of Tenzin's children handed over?


      No, those two guards simply assumed kidnapping them would please her. In reality, I doubt Kuvira wants to risk the consequences of kidnapping the children of a very influencial and well respected politician like Tenzin - not to mention that Jinora is now a well established figure of her own right and the implied new spiritual leader of her people.

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    • LM3014 wrote:
      Deist Zealot wrote:

      PaladinLillith wrote:

      I tried to match her up with other dictators in similar situations, but none fit as well as Hitler does.

      There are many that fit better, actually, considering that she's, y'know, not committing genocide at this point.

      Seriously: the only circumstance under which comparisons to Hitler are not invocations of Godwin's law are those in which genocide is being committed.

      Meaning we can't really compare Hitler to 1941 Hitler?

      False equivalence.  In that case, you're talking about the same individual at different points in time.

      Again: let me know when Kuvira attempts genocide.  That will be the point at which comparing her to Hitler will no longer be a Godwin.

      Fireshadowz wrote:
      There are a few parts missing from the Napoleon analogy. Kuvira disrespects all of her adopted family besides Batar Jr. where as Napoleon promoted all his brothers to places of honour.

      And, again: she also hasn't committed genocide, but the Godwins run riot—and pretty much entirely on the grounds that she's authoritarian and goes gunning for dissenters.  (Never mind that one could say the same of the U.S. government in certain eras.)

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    • I think we can agree that Kuvira is now worse than Amon, Unilaq, Zhao, Azula, and Zaheer put together.

      I just hope she hasn't gone mad the same way Azula has. It'd be too unsettling.

      I'm sure Korra will do what it takes to ruin her plans now that she has just been cured of her mental breakdown.

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    • You're right really. Bryke has already confirmed Kuvira as the villain. I think that the only thing that changes here is that people can actually see her point of view a little better than the past villains.

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    • if kuvira learns to bend plantium, avatar world is doomed, maybe not tho. maybe korra will take away kuviras bending 

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    • Allison0z wrote:
      if kuvira learns to bend plantium, avatar world is doomed, maybe not tho. maybe korra will take away kuviras bending 

      Agree with you in this. And do you think she will stop at just the Earth Kingdom? I mean... her goal is only the Earth Kingdom.

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    • SonicFan wrote:
      I think we can agree that Kuvira is now worse than Amon, Unilaq, Zhao, Azula, and Zaheer put together.

      I just hope she hasn't gone mad the same way Azula has. It'd be too unsettling.

      I'm sure Korra will do what it takes to ruin her plans now that she has just been cured of her mental breakdown.

      I would agree with the notion that Unilaq and Azula (to an extent) was cartoonishly evil...but Amon and Zaheer? They actually could debatably even be heroes. In fact, I actually think, from what we saw of Zaheer, he may have been right, and had he been fleshed out a little more, I may have outright fully agreed with him. I think the argument could be made that the avatar does not represent balance as it favors a more lawful good approach, rather than a true neutral. When they introduced Raava, it really became more about light vs dark, and while they did have the bit about how they both exist within each other, Raava isn't balance, the relationship between Raava and Vaatu would be symbolic of balance and harmony, but neither one, individually, actually embodies the concept. I really was disappointed in them going the route they did with LoK Book 2, but, that's where we're at.

      While Toph mentions Zaheer as being too extreme, I fail to see where he actually was. What did he do? Killed a despot? Attempted to kill a superbeing that directed humanity's fate as it pleased, at times even on whims significantly altering the world, such as taking part in political matters, supporting or killing royalty/political figures, generaions of keeping the four nations separate, separating the spiritual world from the physical world, recombining them, both times without really much thought or any input from the general pubic, human or spirit. Zaheer wanting to take out this being that can do what it wants to everyone else without any recourse, is actually a pretty reasonable desire. He advocated for freedom and he was targeting some deeply problematic entities to that end.

      Historically, I actually think Korra has often made bad or at least reckless decisions that just happened to turn out alright and being young or inexperienced, really isn't a meaningful response when so many lives are impacted so significantly by her actions. I think a very good case can be made for there not being a need for the avatar, I may not even stop there, the avatar may even be detrimental to their world.

      While Kuvira may be a problem, previous Earth Kingdom governments have failed the people, and she prevented another inept and irresponsible leader to come to power and she's advocating strict law and order. If Zaheer sucks for being against this in favor of liberal definition of freedom, it's interesting to see how against Kuvira people are. I see that they are two opposites, but I don't think Zaheer was as far left on the pendulum as Kuvira is to the right. So where is the point on the scale that is balance? If the king would have been (more or less) balance, is this balance even that great?

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    • There needs to be an balance between restriction and freedom. Too much freedom allows freekilling, robbing, and an majority of lives ruined too soon. Total restriction allows no ability to discover life's offerings. Cant fully support Zaheer's total anarchy or Hou-tings tyrannical abuse

      I do however agree with what Zaheer said about there being no nations. If people were living as one, it would combine all cultures, allowing everyone to live freely how theyd like (under some restrictions such as no killing/stealing). There would be no need to restore the air nation as there are no other nations to become balanced with

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    • In Zaheer's actions, where was he wrong? Was it wrong to kill the Earth Queen who was impoverishing her country and just abusing power in general? Was it wrong to attempt to eliminate the Avatar, which is a self proclaimed bridge between the spirits and humans, that divided the world and recombined it on whims and shaped human history according to its own discretion, that backed this influence with incredible force or the threat of it? Where is the balance line?

      Note that the Air Nomads didn't have much of a government outside of immediate small groups and had quite a bit of freedom and autonomy and were doing fine, well, until an imperial power came in and wiped them out...because they feared the avatar.

      I've come to think that the nations don't really matter, I always thought it was more about the balance of the people that did the bending having some effect on the world (like, the world needed earthbenders, or something happens like the spiritual imbalance begins to make the soil die off or something). After the Book 2 retcon to the lore, I don't think even the benders really matter. Bending itself, isn't really seeming to be inherently important. It's just a tool that people got from the Lion Turtles (now I wonder how the "original benders" like sky bison, badgermoles, dragons, and...the moon, got their bending), not some deep spiritual thing or required spiritual component that ties in with the world, the spiritual aspects of it seem added in to the already occuring phenomena (much like martial arts are physical movements the body can make, but spiritual aspects are added to these already possible movements, making the act a spiritual one, at least according to some of the practitioners). So, if there are no airbenders, the only loss is that a cultural identity dies. Of course, I'd argue this contradicts the earlier stuff we saw in Avatar: The Last Airbender, which bending was really tied to the spiritual connection (hence why all Air Nomads were able to airbend).

      Unless something new becomes revealed, which reconciles these apparent contradictions, I suspect the "balance of the nations" never really mattered to begin with, at least for any inherent natural/spiritual reason.

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    • I don't care if she's a demigoddess with a sketchily-defined role or not:  Trying to painfully kill an eighteen-year-old girl crosses the line.  Ditto threatening to wipe out a remnant population in order to coerce said girl into turning herself over, especially after going on and on about how much you respect the culture of said remnant population.  (Did I mention that Zaheer is a four-plus culture vulture?  Like, the most grating sort of weeaboo and the most pompous sort of New Ager all rolled into one?)

      And no, doing it in the name of "freedom" is not a justification—any more than "unity" is a justification for press-ganging people.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      I don't care if she's a demigoddess with a sketchily-defined role or not:  Trying to painfully kill an eighteen-year-old girl crosses the line.  Ditto threatening to wipe out a remnant population in order to coerce said girl into turning herself over, especially after going on and on about how much you respect the culture of said remnant population.  (Did I mention that Zaheer is a four-plus culture vulture?  Like, the most grating sort of weeaboo and the most pompous sort of New Ager all rolled into one?)

      And no, doing it in the name of "freedom" is not a justification—any more than "unity" is a justification for press-ganging people.

      To be fair, it's clear that Zaheer wasn't that willing to wipe out the Air Nomads, given the ruse and how he kept them secretly in the caves.

      That said, that makes him a hypocrite, since he's imprisoning an entire nation to use as potential leverage.

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    • In the end Zaheer betrayed Korra to get what he wanted. So, yea I guess that makes him a hypocrite. 

      While Kuvira is the villain she doesn't seem interested in fighting the Avatar, or is that just me? Amon planned to take her out, Unavaatu wanted to as well, and even Zaheer did to make her the last Avatar. 

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    • Maybe she realises that opposing a fully mastered avatar is pretty stupid. She doesn't want her as an enemy, since it's a dangerous one, and has no real reason. I mean Zaheer directly opposed the avatar, Unalaq wanted to bring chaos and darkness, those are examples of villains that were opposing the avatar.

      Kuvira wants to unite the earth kingdom, the avatar isn't the enemy. The ones who oppose that unification are the real enemies. The avatar could even agree with her.

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    • Trevor MacEwan wrote:

      While Kuvira is the villain she doesn't seem interested in fighting the Avatar, or is that just me? Amon planned to take her out, Unavaatu wanted to as well, and even Zaheer did to make her the last Avatar. 

      Why should she be interested in fighting the Avatar at all? If she was, they would've already fought instead of talking. So far, her plan has been uniting the Earth Kingdom. Whoever stands in her way is a threat. It doesn't necessarily have to be Korra. However, the concept of protagonist vs antagonist in a physical battle has turned out to be a must.

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    • Than the question is how is she really a villain than? Sure she's extreme when it comes to how she wants to unite the Earth Kingdom/Empire. But, taking three years to bring back order does show how bad things were after Zaheer killed Hou-Ting. Also Prince Wu would have been a bad choice to run the Kingdom... It would descend back into chaos which is what Kuvira wants to prevent.   

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      LM3014 wrote:
      Deist Zealot wrote:

      PaladinLillith wrote:

      I tried to match her up with other dictators in similar situations, but none fit as well as Hitler does.

      There are many that fit better, actually, considering that she's, y'know, not committing genocide at this point.

      Seriously: the only circumstance under which comparisons to Hitler are not invocations of Godwin's law are those in which genocide is being committed.

      Meaning we can't really compare Hitler to 1941 Hitler?
      False equivalence.  In that case, you're talking about the same individual at different points in time.

      Again: let me know when Kuvira attempts genocide.  That will be the point at which comparing her to Hitler will no longer be a Godwin.

      It would be a false equivalence were we talking about real persons. It's not a false equivalence when we're talking about fictional persons, because a writer can inspire himself in only parts of a real character and ignore all the rest. Also, all this obssession about Godwin's law is pointless. Am I authorized to compare her to Pol Pot, Slobodan Milosevic or Genghis Khan? Of course I am, provided I give reasonable points of comparison. Gudwin's "Law" was made to keep people from throwing "Reductio Ad Hitlerum" comparisons on shaky arguments, not to keep people from pointing out that Hitler matches really well to someone, except for the most egregious set of crimes he ordered.

      Not that I think Kuvira was completely inspired in Hitler: as I said, lots of other dictators had very similar trajectories. But parts of her personal character and more strikingly, parts of the imagery surrounding her are clearly inspired in Hitler, and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out!


      Fireshadowz wrote:
      There are a few parts missing from the Napoleon analogy. Kuvira disrespects all of her adopted family besides Batar Jr. where as Napoleon promoted all his brothers to places of honour.

      Hitler's family doesn't have any similarity with Kuvira's either.

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    • As much as Kuvira being a villian and a dictaintor and Prince Wu being a complete incompetant wuss, I'll still stick with Kuvira? Why? 


      Well, the whole phase from the royal family to the dicatorship, and to the democratic goverment is something that, preety much all countries in the current day world have experianced. Think about china, korea, all countries in south america, and countries in africa. They all had that 'phase' where a strong dictator (of varying dictator-ness) took over and govered for a while, was taken out by another dictator, and this just heppened over and over and it eventually became slightly more democratic each time. I'm sorry, but democracy is not someting that's handed down in a platter (unless you were a colony that got democracy because your mother-land sais so, but in that case we don't have autonomy)


      At least Kuvira isn't planning to establish her own royal family like Napoleon (i think, she seem to be preety against the whole royal family ruling idea) and she haven't yet expressed desire to either massacre entire race of people or to subjugate all other countries (like fire nation and water tribe) into her own rule like Hitler. 

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    • Trevor MacEwan wrote:
      Than the question is how is she really a villain than? Sure she's extreme when it comes to how she wants to unite the Earth Kingdom/Empire. But, taking three years to bring back order does show how bad things were after Zaheer killed Hou-Ting. Also Prince Wu would have been a bad choice to run the Kingdom... It would descend back into chaos which is what Kuvira wants to prevent.   

      "Entrainment camps", menacing Varrick into building a crazily dangerous superweapon, (perhaps just speculation?) hiring bandits to force people into joining. Without all that, she's no villain, but these three are more than enough to make her into one.

      I don't care for Wu either, but Kuvira is not the solution. She wil bring chaos to the kingdom too, although perhaps a different form of chaos.

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    • Why I am the only one who saw her as evil female counterpart of El Cid?!

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      I don't care if she's a demigoddess with a sketchily-defined role or not:  Trying to painfully kill an eighteen-year-old girl crosses the line.  Ditto threatening to wipe out a remnant population in order to coerce said girl into turning herself over, especially after going on and on about how much you respect the culture of said remnant population.  (Did I mention that Zaheer is a four-plus culture vulture?  Like, the most grating sort of weeaboo and the most pompous sort of New Ager all rolled into one?)

      And no, doing it in the name of "freedom" is not a justification—any more than "unity" is a justification for press-ganging people.

      Yes, cold-blooded murder is wrong in a very fundamental level. Threatening genocide in order to accomplish murder is even worse, even if you don't really want to do it. And adding to your criticism, Vaheer's supposed motivation ("freedom to everybody") is extremely hypocritical, as he's not giving the people of the Earth Kingdom the right to decide their own future: instead, he's throwing them into chaos (where dictators and oppressors thrive) and who cares what happens from there? Not his problem.

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    • LM3014 wrote:

      It would be a false equivalence were we talking about real persons. It's not a false equivalence when we're talking about fictional persons, because a writer can inspire himself in only parts of a real character and ignore all the rest. Also, all this obssession about Godwin's law is pointless. Am I authorized to compare her to Pol Pot, Slobodan Milosevic or Genghis Khan? Of course I am, provided I give reasonable points of comparison. Gudwin's "Law" was made to keep people from throwing "Reductio Ad Hitlerum" comparisons on shaky arguments, not to keep people from pointing out that Hitler matches really well to someone, except for the most egregious set of crimes he ordered.

      Not that I think Kuvira was completely inspired in Hitler: as I said, lots of other dictators had very similar trajectories. But parts of her personal character and more strikingly, parts of the imagery surrounding her are clearly inspired in Hitler, and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out!

      Calling reductio ad Hitlerum by its proper name—which, unless the character is genocidal, is what it is—is "obsession" now?

      Your argument is "this character is a classic authoritarian villain out of Central Casting, which could describe any despot ever.  Therefore, despite not having committed the definitive atrocity that determines whether or not a Hitler analogy is appropriate, this character is clearly a Hitler reference."

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    • Even some parts of her infantry look like German Troops. 

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    • Trevor MacEwan wrote:
      Even some parts of her infantry look like German Troops. 

      Which might be relevant if that hadn't become the archetypal "dictator's little flunkies" aesthetic in media.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:Which might be relevant if that hadn't become the archetypal "dictator's little flunkies" aesthetic in media.

      Also the metalbenders in her army wear helmets like Stormtroopers in Star Wars. So, far there is a lot of ties to Germany. 

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    • Trevor MacEwan wrote:
      Deist Zealot wrote:Which might be relevant if that hadn't become the archetypal "dictator's little flunkies" aesthetic in media.
      Also the metalbenders in her army wear helmets like Stormtroopers in Star Wars. So, far there is a lot of ties to Germany. 

      Again: you're focusing strictly on aesthetics.  So far, her tactics have been "authoritarian villain out of central casting."  They could describe literally any dictator ever.  In fact, as far as Western comparisons go, Napoleon continues to fit better—right up to declaring herself emperor.

      It remains that genocide is the defining factor as to whether a Hitler analogy is appropriate or reductive.  At this point, we have no proof that she's committed, attempted, or even threatened genocide; therefore, the comparison is reductive.

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    • I'm not arguing against that. I agree that so far she's been an Authoritarian leader using military force to keep the Earth Kingdom/Empire from decesending back into Chaos. 

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    • Trevor MacEwan wrote:
      I'm not arguing against that. I agree that so far she's been an Authoritarian leader using military force to keep the Earth Kingdom/Empire from decesending back into Chaos. 

      Ah, okay; gotcha.

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    • -Darjeeling- wrote:
      I'm fed up with people comparing Kuvira to Hitler because he is so famous.

      It's not that he's so famous, it's because there's some obvious parallels, there were Hitler parallels in Ozai too as well as Kuvira, being that, they're both tyrannical dictators who got rid of those who they perceived to be a threat to their view, plans and ambitions and then suppress them. Kuvira is a particularly fascist villain, that doesn't mean she's entirely like Hitler, but Hitler was a fascist too.

      Just look at her empire and try not to tell me that it wasn't partly inspired by Nazis (and Storm troopers)

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:

      LM3014 wrote:

      It would be a false equivalence were we talking about real persons. It's not a false equivalence when we're talking about fictional persons, because a writer can inspire himself in only parts of a real character and ignore all the rest. Also, all this obssession about Godwin's law is pointless. Am I authorized to compare her to Pol Pot, Slobodan Milosevic or Genghis Khan? Of course I am, provided I give reasonable points of comparison. Gudwin's "Law" was made to keep people from throwing "Reductio Ad Hitlerum" comparisons on shaky arguments, not to keep people from pointing out that Hitler matches really well to someone, except for the most egregious set of crimes he ordered.

      Not that I think Kuvira was completely inspired in Hitler: as I said, lots of other dictators had very similar trajectories. But parts of her personal character and more strikingly, parts of the imagery surrounding her are clearly inspired in Hitler, and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out!

      Calling reductio ad Hitlerum by its proper name—which, unless the character is genocidal, is what it is—is "obsession" now?

      Your argument is "this character is a classic authoritarian villain out of Central Casting, which could describe any despot ever.  Therefore, despite not having committed the definitive atrocity that determines whether or not a Hitler analogy is appropriate, this character is clearly a Hitler reference."

      As I said, there's no reason to use genocide as the only test separating "good Hitler comparisons" from "bad Hitler comparisons". If for no other reason, because plenty of autocrats practiced genocide, and there is no reason to eliminate them as valid points of comparison.

      Second, the "classic authoritarian villain out of Central Casting" IS inspired by Hitler. Gas masks, "entrainment camps", WW2 helmets... these are all symbols that are only used in popular culture to mean "authoritarian villain" because they were linked to Hitler, the Wehrmacht and the SS at some point.

      That's the same as saying that a character that looks like the generic leader of the generic nomadic steppe horde can't be compared to Genghis Khan, because he didn't practice genocide in screen. The generic leader of the generic nomadic steppe horde IS "Genghis Attila the Hun Khan"! It's just that after several centuries of cultural evolution, this stereotype became so sublimed that lots of people use it without even knowing where it came from.

      Now how useful these comparisons are? Not a lot, of course. All these symbols entered in pop culture long ago, so they don't really matter when it comes to knowing if the character is a reference. That's why I agree with you that she's more of a Napoleon, despite the fact that she lacks most trappings and symbols that Napoleon is famous for.

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    • LM3014 wrote:
      Deist Zealot wrote:

      LM3014 wrote:

      It would be a false equivalence were we talking about real persons. It's not a false equivalence when we're talking about fictional persons, because a writer can inspire himself in only parts of a real character and ignore all the rest. Also, all this obssession about Godwin's law is pointless. Am I authorized to compare her to Pol Pot, Slobodan Milosevic or Genghis Khan? Of course I am, provided I give reasonable points of comparison. Gudwin's "Law" was made to keep people from throwing "Reductio Ad Hitlerum" comparisons on shaky arguments, not to keep people from pointing out that Hitler matches really well to someone, except for the most egregious set of crimes he ordered.

      Not that I think Kuvira was completely inspired in Hitler: as I said, lots of other dictators had very similar trajectories. But parts of her personal character and more strikingly, parts of the imagery surrounding her are clearly inspired in Hitler, and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out!

      Calling reductio ad Hitlerum by its proper name—which, unless the character is genocidal, is what it is—is "obsession" now?
      Your argument is "this character is a classic authoritarian villain out of Central Casting, which could describe any despot ever.  Therefore, despite not having committed the definitive atrocity that determines whether or not a Hitler analogy is appropriate, this character is clearly a Hitler reference."
      As I said, there's no reason to use genocide as the only test separating "good Hitler comparisons" from "bad Hitler comparisons". If for no other reason, because plenty of autocrats practiced genocide, and there is no reason to eliminate them as valid points of comparison.

      Second, the "classic authoritarian villain out of Central Casting" IS inspired by Hitler. Gas masks, "entrainment camps", WW2 helmets... these are all symbols that are only used in popular culture to mean "authoritarian villain" because they were linked to Hitler, the Wehrmacht and the SS at some point.

      That's the same as saying that a character that looks like the generic leader of the generic nomadic steppe horde can't be compared to Genghis Khan, because he didn't practice genocide in screen. The generic leader of the generic nomadic steppe horde IS "Genghis Attila the Hun Khan"! It's just that after several centuries of cultural evolution, this stereotype became so sublimed that lots of people use it without even knowing where it came from.

      Now how useful these comparisons are? Not a lot, of course. All these symbols entered in pop culture long ago, so they don't really matter when it comes to knowing if the character is a reference. That's why I agree with you that she's more of a Napoleon, despite the fact that she lacks most trappings and symbols that Napoleon is famous for.

      Not "good versus bad."  Valid versus reductive.  The aesthetic is one thing; if you're going to argue that it goes that far beyond the aesthetic, you'd best be able to back it up without dismissing or trivializing the defining atrocity.  Which, in the case of Hitler comparisons, is an attempt at genocide.  ("Genocide," for the record, has a very specific definition.)

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:

      Not "good versus bad."  Valid versus reductive.  The aesthetic is one thing; if you're going to argue that it goes that far beyond the aesthetic, you'd best be able to back it up without dismissing or trivializing the defining atrocity.  Which, in the case of Hitler comparisons, is an attempt at genocide.  ("Genocide," for the record, has a very specific definition.)

      Again, Hitler wasn't the first or the last autocrat to attempt genocide. There is no reason to define these autocrats entirely by genocide: there are plenty of other atrocities in their records (certainly the case for Hitler).

      Since we're discussing fictional characters, the obvious comparison to real-life people is to find out if the character references a famous person. Aesthetics are perfectly valid points to consider... As I said again and again, I agree with you that there isn't a lot of things in common between Kuvira and Hitler that haven't entered Kuvira by default from popular culture stereotypes of dictators. At the moment, it's just her former life that seems to have a few vague points in common.

      But maybe next week Kuvira will be show to have labor camps were people produce war machines for her Empire, or maybe she will want to conquer the Fire Nation for extra land and then transform its inhabitants in slaves, etc.

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    • LM3014 wrote:
      Deist Zealot wrote:

      Not "good versus bad."  Valid versus reductive.  The aesthetic is one thing; if you're going to argue that it goes that far beyond the aesthetic, you'd best be able to back it up without dismissing or trivializing the defining atrocity.  Which, in the case of Hitler comparisons, is an attempt at genocide.  ("Genocide," for the record, has a very specific definition.)

      Again, Hitler wasn't the first or the last autocrat to attempt genocide. There is no reason to define these autocrats entirely by genocide: there are plenty of other atrocities in their records (certainly the case for Hitler).

      Since we're discussing fictional characters, the obvious comparison to real-life people is to find out if the character references a famous person. Aesthetics are perfectly valid points to consider... As I said again and again, I agree with you that there isn't a lot of things in common between Kuvira and Hitler that haven't entered Kuvira by default from popular culture stereotypes of dictators. At the moment, it's just her former life that seems to have a few vague points in common.

      But maybe next week Kuvira will be show to have labor camps were people produce war machines for her Empire, or maybe she will want to conquer the Fire Nation for extra land and then transform its inhabitants in slaves, etc.

      I honestly feel that there are parellels between Kuvira and Hitler, some really obvious ones.

      I mean, really? Kuvira just sent Bolin to the camps. I wonder who was famous for that?

      And even then, Hitler would still have force labor in Germany during his rule, most of them from the camps.

      Kuvira isn't as hateful as Hitler was towards people but she's clearly an anagram to fascist governments and the Nazi regime from the 1930s-40s

      And there's nothing wrong with that.

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    • AvatarKatar wrote:
      LM3014 wrote:
      Deist Zealot wrote:

      Not "good versus bad."  Valid versus reductive.  The aesthetic is one thing; if you're going to argue that it goes that far beyond the aesthetic, you'd best be able to back it up without dismissing or trivializing the defining atrocity.  Which, in the case of Hitler comparisons, is an attempt at genocide.  ("Genocide," for the record, has a very specific definition.)

      Again, Hitler wasn't the first or the last autocrat to attempt genocide. There is no reason to define these autocrats entirely by genocide: there are plenty of other atrocities in their records (certainly the case for Hitler).

      Since we're discussing fictional characters, the obvious comparison to real-life people is to find out if the character references a famous person. Aesthetics are perfectly valid points to consider... As I said again and again, I agree with you that there isn't a lot of things in common between Kuvira and Hitler that haven't entered Kuvira by default from popular culture stereotypes of dictators. At the moment, it's just her former life that seems to have a few vague points in common.

      But maybe next week Kuvira will be show to have labor camps were people produce war machines for her Empire, or maybe she will want to conquer the Fire Nation for extra land and then transform its inhabitants in slaves, etc.

      I honestly feel that there are parellels between Kuvira and Hitler, some really obvious ones.

      I mean, really? Kuvira just sent Bolin to the camps. I wonder who was famous for that?

      And even then, Hitler would still have force labor in Germany during his rule, most of them from the camps.

      Kuvira isn't as hateful as Hitler was towards people but she's clearly an anagram to fascist governments and the Nazi regime from the 1930s-40s

      And there's nothing wrong with that.

      And that, right there, is what invalidates the analogy.  Genocide is the definitive atrocity of Nazism—as in, it's what defined it as unequivocally atrocious.  It's disrespectful to the victims and survivors of the Holocaust, and to their descendants, to make that comparison unless genocide is happening.

      Also: not only do we not know that she's running death camps?  As I've pointed out elsewhere, the U.S. government, during the same era, was putting Japanese-Americans in camps.  But in that case, there's also the xenophobia aspect that's missing from our fictional example.

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    • AvatarKatar wrote:
      -Darjeeling- wrote:
      I'm fed up with people comparing Kuvira to Hitler because he is so famous.
      It's not that he's so famous, it's because there's some obvious parallels, there were Hitler parallels in Ozai too as well as Kuvira, being that, they're both tyrannical dictators who got rid of those who they perceived to be a threat to their view, plans and ambitions and then suppress them.

      Kuvira is a particularly fascist villain, that doesn't mean she's entirely like Hitler, but Hitler was a fascist too.

      Just look at her empire and try not to tell me that it wasn't partly inspired by Nazis (and Storm troopers)

      How well do you really know Hitler and Germany's situation back then? I guess many people would think of him first if they were to mention a dictator. If you draw parallels, then refer to dictators in general. It's obvious that the reason why people compare Kuvira to Hitler is because he's famous and many people don't about anyone else very well since they've never learned.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:

      And that, right there, is what invalidates the analogy.  Genocide is the definitive atrocity of Nazism—as in, it's what defined it as unequivocally atrocious.  It's disrespectful to the victims and survivors of the Holocaust, and to their descendants, to make that comparison unless genocide is happening.

      Also: not only do we not know that she's running death camps?  As I've pointed out elsewhere, the U.S. government, during the same era, was putting Japanese-Americans in camps.  But in that case, there's also the xenophobia aspect that's missing from our fictional example.

      Nazism and Fascism isn't just about the genocide of an entire race or just xenophobia, it's the over authoritized, nationalized government that holds an extreme view of what it believes in. That could mean anything from a "race" of people to it's own laws.

      I'm not saying genocide is not an atrocity that's associated with Nazism, but that's not the only thing associated with Nazism. Nazism was always really a form of fascism, which is what Kuvira is. It's not really desrespectful, many people compared Ozai to Hitler or Amon to Stalin and not many complained.

      No but the conditions in the American camps weren't as severe because the American government didn't hold as strong an extreme racist view on Japanese-Americans (though, I'm sure there were a few people with them).

      Is she running death camps? Most likely not but what she's doing is the definition of Fascism and is forcing innocent people to locate to these camps if they defy the empire.

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    • SonicFan wrote:
      I think we can agree that Kuvira is now worse than Amon, Unilaq, Zhao, Azula, and Zaheer put together.

      I just hope she hasn't gone mad the same way Azula has. It'd be too unsettling.

      I'm sure Korra will do what it takes to ruin her plans now that she has just been cured of her mental breakdown.

      Not at this point, Zaheer  wanted to permenantly rid the world of the avatar and was willing to commit a second genocide of the airbenders in order to do it. Unilaq wanted to take over the world and plunge the world into 10000 years of darkness. Zhao almost permenantly rid the world of waterbenders. Kuvirra's plans have not gotten so outblown yet.

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    • -Darjeeling- wrote:

      How well do you really know Hitler and Germany's situation back then? I guess many people would think of him first if they were to mention a dictator. If you draw parallels, then refer to dictators in general. It's obvious that the reason why people compare Kuvira to Hitler is because he's famous and many people don't about anyone else very well since they've never learned.

      I'm a huge nerd on World War II and I understood the situation.

      The parellel between Hitler and Kuvira is not the hatred against a group of people but the over authorization and extreme nationalism which is what Hitler did and supported at the time.

      Kuvira's situation is extremely fascist, it's clear. There's no real issue with comparing her to Hitler. Honestly, you can compare her to any dictator of a fascist government and it would do.

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    • Fireshadowz wrote:
      SonicFan wrote:
      I think we can agree that Kuvira is now worse than Amon, Unilaq, Zhao, Azula, and Zaheer put together.

      I just hope she hasn't gone mad the same way Azula has. It'd be too unsettling.

      I'm sure Korra will do what it takes to ruin her plans now that she has just been cured of her mental breakdown.

      Not at this point, Zaheer  wanted to permenantly rid the world of the avatar and was willing to commit a second genocide of the airbenders in order to do it. Unilaq wanted to take over the world and plunge the world into 10000 years of darkness. Zhao almost permenantly rid the world of waterbenders. Kuvirra's plans have not gotten so outblown yet.

      Zaheer was not going to kill the airbenders. He had them imprisoned while he had decoys out during the hostage exchange. He presumably was going to let them go after he took care of Korra.

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    • AvatarKatar wrote:
      -Darjeeling- wrote:

      How well do you really know Hitler and Germany's situation back then? I guess many people would think of him first if they were to mention a dictator. If you draw parallels, then refer to dictators in general. It's obvious that the reason why people compare Kuvira to Hitler is because he's famous and many people don't about anyone else very well since they've never learned.

      I'm a huge nerd on World War II and I understood the situation.

      The parellel between Hitler and Kuvira is not the hatred against a group of people but the over authorization and extreme nationalism which is what Hitler did and supported at the time.

      Kuvira's situation is extremely fascist, it's clear. There's no real issue with comparing her to Hitler. Honestly, you can compare her to any dictator of a fascist government and it would do.

      I think the problem with doing so is the stigma that Hitler and Nazis carries with them. It unduly elevates the perception of villany surrounding the one compared to the former. Sure, she has some general similarities to him, but really very little of the things that set him apart from other conquerors or rulers. So, it really is kind of asinine to really defend the comparison. Or, I can start comparing her to Alexander the Great or hell, Rosa Parks, why not? I can draw a number of general similarities between Kuvira and many other historical figures, it doesn't make them particularly compelling ones though.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:

      I think the problem with doing so is the stigma that Hitler and Nazis carries with them. It unduly elevates the perception of villany surrounding the one compared to the former. Sure, she has some general similarities to him, but really very little of the things that set him apart from other conquerors or rulers. So, it really is kind of asinine to really defend the comparison. Or, I can start comparing her to Alexander the Great or hell, Rosa Parks, why not? I can draw a number of general similarities between Kuvira and many other historical figures, it doesn't make them particularly compelling ones though.

      I don't agree. Honestly, the paring has sense to it, it's not just senseless "Mean leader so she's Hitler", there's a legit parellel from Kuvira and fascism and fascism in particular.

      I'm gonna end my thoughts here:

      The parellels between Kuvira and Hitler or just plain Kuvira and Fascism is plain to the eye to basics of dictatorship or just plaining similar. People are bringing the Kuvira comparison from what I see is her choices. She hasn't committed a genocide but as Bolin and Varrick said, she's crazy. She sends people to the camps and forces her views and ideology on the people who follow her in a 1920s-30s like setting in a place with where a country needs her the most.

      I'm not gonna reply to anymore comments directed at me about the comparison between Kuvira and Hitler and advise people on the thread to stop doing so too because let's face it.

      When Hitler becomes an argument on an online thread, it usually ends badly and seeing the legit frustrations and stress the admins are having at the moment, it's best to end the Hitler comparsion here and not drag on. You have the right to disagree with me all you want.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Fireshadowz wrote:
      SonicFan wrote:
      I think we can agree that Kuvira is now worse than Amon, Unilaq, Zhao, Azula, and Zaheer put together.

      I just hope she hasn't gone mad the same way Azula has. It'd be too unsettling.

      I'm sure Korra will do what it takes to ruin her plans now that she has just been cured of her mental breakdown.

      Not at this point, Zaheer  wanted to permenantly rid the world of the avatar and was willing to commit a second genocide of the airbenders in order to do it. Unilaq wanted to take over the world and plunge the world into 10000 years of darkness. Zhao almost permenantly rid the world of waterbenders. Kuvirra's plans have not gotten so outblown yet.
      Zaheer was not going to kill the airbenders. He had them imprisoned while he had decoys out during the hostage exchange. He presumably was going to let them go after he took care of Korra.

      He sure threatened them, at very least okayed his girlfriend shooting at them, and beat the living hell out of the Cloudbabies.  We don't know what he was planning on doing.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      Weltall8000 wrote:
      Fireshadowz wrote:
      SonicFan wrote:
      I think we can agree that Kuvira is now worse than Amon, Unilaq, Zhao, Azula, and Zaheer put together.

      I just hope she hasn't gone mad the same way Azula has. It'd be too unsettling.

      I'm sure Korra will do what it takes to ruin her plans now that she has just been cured of her mental breakdown.

      Not at this point, Zaheer  wanted to permenantly rid the world of the avatar and was willing to commit a second genocide of the airbenders in order to do it. Unilaq wanted to take over the world and plunge the world into 10000 years of darkness. Zhao almost permenantly rid the world of waterbenders. Kuvirra's plans have not gotten so outblown yet.
      Zaheer was not going to kill the airbenders. He had them imprisoned while he had decoys out during the hostage exchange. He presumably was going to let them go after he took care of Korra.
      He sure threatened them, at very least okayed his girlfriend shooting at them, and beat the living hell out of the Cloudbabies.  We don't know what he was planning on doing.

      If killing them was his intent, why bother even keeping them alive in the first place? He didn't even actually use them physically for the hostage exchange turned double cross. Since he was using water in cloth decoys anyways, he could have murdered them all and had his plan work out exactly as it had through to the capture of Korra. Hell, if he had done that, he'd have sucessfully killed Korra ultimately as the airbenders would have been dead, thus not able to save her.

      I'm not saying he certainly was above killing a few of them if necessary (though, to my knowledge, he killed no airbenders, and save Avatar Korra herself, he never attempted to kill one either), but it clearly wasn't his intent or MO to slaughter them.

      But alright, if we ignore all of that, you mention how we don't know what he was planning, so, if we go on that, by your admission, one can't really say he was going to commit genocide, as they don't know his intent. And that is if we're even ignoring his actions which indicate at the very least, a relucance (if not flat out refusal) to kill any of them, barring the Avatar itself.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Deist Zealot wrote:
      Weltall8000 wrote:
      Fireshadowz wrote:
      SonicFan wrote:
      I think we can agree that Kuvira is now worse than Amon, Unilaq, Zhao, Azula, and Zaheer put together.

      I just hope she hasn't gone mad the same way Azula has. It'd be too unsettling.

      I'm sure Korra will do what it takes to ruin her plans now that she has just been cured of her mental breakdown.

      Not at this point, Zaheer  wanted to permenantly rid the world of the avatar and was willing to commit a second genocide of the airbenders in order to do it. Unilaq wanted to take over the world and plunge the world into 10000 years of darkness. Zhao almost permenantly rid the world of waterbenders. Kuvirra's plans have not gotten so outblown yet.
      Zaheer was not going to kill the airbenders. He had them imprisoned while he had decoys out during the hostage exchange. He presumably was going to let them go after he took care of Korra.
      He sure threatened them, at very least okayed his girlfriend shooting at them, and beat the living hell out of the Cloudbabies.  We don't know what he was planning on doing.
      If killing them was his intent, why bother even keeping them alive in the first place? He didn't even actually use them physically for the hostage exchange turned double cross. Since he was using water in cloth decoys anyways, he could have murdered them all and had his plan work out exactly as it had through to the capture of Korra. Hell, if he had done that, he'd have sucessfully killed Korra ultimately as the airbenders would have been dead, thus not able to save her.

      I'm not saying he certainly was above killing a few of them if necessary (though, to my knowledge, he killed no airbenders, and save Avatar Korra herself, he never attempted to kill one either), but it clearly wasn't his intent or MO to slaughter them.

      But alright, if we ignore all of that, you mention how we don't know what he was planning, so, if we go on that, by your admission, one can't really say he was going to commit genocide, as they don't know his intent. And that is if we're even ignoring his actions which indicate at the very least, a relucance (if not flat out refusal) to kill any of them, barring the Avatar itself.

      He would have killed them had Korra not shown up.

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    • Also he prettty brutally beat Tenzin

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    • Fireshadowz wrote:
      Weltall8000 wrote:
      Deist Zealot wrote:
      Weltall8000 wrote:
      Fireshadowz wrote:
      SonicFan wrote:
      I think we can agree that Kuvira is now worse than Amon, Unilaq, Zhao, Azula, and Zaheer put together.

      I just hope she hasn't gone mad the same way Azula has. It'd be too unsettling.

      I'm sure Korra will do what it takes to ruin her plans now that she has just been cured of her mental breakdown.

      Not at this point, Zaheer  wanted to permenantly rid the world of the avatar and was willing to commit a second genocide of the airbenders in order to do it. Unilaq wanted to take over the world and plunge the world into 10000 years of darkness. Zhao almost permenantly rid the world of waterbenders. Kuvirra's plans have not gotten so outblown yet.
      Zaheer was not going to kill the airbenders. He had them imprisoned while he had decoys out during the hostage exchange. He presumably was going to let them go after he took care of Korra.
      He sure threatened them, at very least okayed his girlfriend shooting at them, and beat the living hell out of the Cloudbabies.  We don't know what he was planning on doing.
      If killing them was his intent, why bother even keeping them alive in the first place? He didn't even actually use them physically for the hostage exchange turned double cross. Since he was using water in cloth decoys anyways, he could have murdered them all and had his plan work out exactly as it had through to the capture of Korra. Hell, if he had done that, he'd have sucessfully killed Korra ultimately as the airbenders would have been dead, thus not able to save her.

      I'm not saying he certainly was above killing a few of them if necessary (though, to my knowledge, he killed no airbenders, and save Avatar Korra herself, he never attempted to kill one either), but it clearly wasn't his intent or MO to slaughter them.

      But alright, if we ignore all of that, you mention how we don't know what he was planning, so, if we go on that, by your admission, one can't really say he was going to commit genocide, as they don't know his intent. And that is if we're even ignoring his actions which indicate at the very least, a relucance (if not flat out refusal) to kill any of them, barring the Avatar itself.

      He would have killed them had Korra not shown up.

      Yeah, that's what hostage means. He didn't want to kill them, but had to used them to get to Korra. 

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    • "He would have killed them had Korra not shown up."

      He switched the hostages out with the water in cloth ruse. He needed to keep them imprisoned so that they couldn't escape and have Korra learn that they were free, thus negating the reason why Korra would have to meet him on his terms. If he wanted to kill them, he could have killed rather than capture them. As his plan was, he never even needed them alive. Not killing them was actually more difficult (and proved his undoing) than just killing them outright and disposing of the bodies.


      "Also he prettty brutally beat Tenzin"


      Which =/= killing Tenzin. He very well could have, again, he did not need Tenzin alive and it would have been better off with him dead. Not killing him was merciful and corroborates the notion that he doesn't want to kill airbenders. Zaheer subdued them, in order to further his plan to kill the avatar, but he didn't kill any of them (even Tenzin, who was a threat, very likely was more powerful than Zaheer himself), when it would have been easier for him to just do that. This shows he was at the very least definitely not out to slaughter them.

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    • Except he did need Tenzin alive—but unable to immediately spill the beans; hence, gagging him—for the sake of the ruse.  I don't think he necessarily wanted to kill the airbenders; however, thanks to the ambiguity (and the very fact of the double-cross), I'm not gonna rule out him being entirely capable of going through with it.  As Korra stated in "The Ultimatum," I don't think he was the bluffing sort.

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      Except he did need Tenzin alive—but unable to immediately spill the beans; hence, gagging him—for the sake of the ruse.  I don't think he necessarily wanted to kill the airbenders; however, thanks to the ambiguity (and the very fact of the double-cross), I'm not gonna rule out him being entirely capable of going through with it.  As Korra stated in "The Ultimatum," I don't think he was the bluffing sort.

      He really didn't. I'll grant you that Tenzin does add more believability, and possibly that's what takes them off guard until they see his muffled warning and head gesture, but they probably would have fallen for it anyway. Maybe Tenzin was expendable, though Ghazan and Ming-Hua weren't really shown trying that hard to finish them off, more covering their escape (in the next episode we see them trying to eliminate Team Avatar). Who knows? He could have killed Tenzin and used the corpse or a dummy with his cloths back with the other puddles of water for the ruse. But even if I were to concede that point, this is a far cry from genocide, the original point of contention.

      "Ambiguity" and "the very fact of the double-cross"? How does that indicate he's willing to kill them? He kept them out of the combat zone and not dead. He's willing to use them as a bargaining chip, knowing full well Korra values them, but we don't see any real evidence of him being willing to kill them en masse. Keeping them, like he did (and again, them being dead and the bodies not recovered would make the same effect), potentially could have been a contingency plan for if he could not recover Korra in the likely event that she double crossed him (which she tried to, just, he did a better job at it). Korra believing he has the airbenders is enough for him to have leverage. Also, the very fact he doesn't kill them after returning to the Red Lotus hideout with Korra is a pretty decent case for him not wanting to kill them.

      And as we clearly see, Korra was wrong, Zaheer definitely is the bluffing type. We see a prime example of that when he orders Ghazan over the radio during the hostage negotiation to kill the airbenders, knowing full well that they puddles of water. The entire setup at the Air Temple, nearly an entire episode, was a bluff from Zaheer. 

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    • Getting back to the main topic. Fittingly, Kuvira seems quite the opposite of Zaheer: a focus on order, a goal that doesn't involve the Avatar directly (atm), the ability to operate in the open, and even having the backing of just about an entire nation. Rather than bluff an opponent, Kuvira is certainly more willing to be direct.

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    • Wonder when Kuvira will fight Korra. I bet Korra will not just standing there and let Kuvira conquer the Earth Kingdom.

      And I still like to compare Kuvira to El Cid, except he did this to King Alfonso VI of Kingdom of Castile and Leon while Kuvira did this for herself only.

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    • Bersarker wrote:
      Wonder when Kuvira will fight Korra. I bet Korra will not just standing there and let Kuvira conquer the Earth Kingdom.

      And I still like to compare Kuvira to El Cid, except he did this to King Alfonso VI of Kingdom of Castile and Leon while Kuvira did this for herself only.

      As for as I've seen Korra doesn't believe that Kuvira is evil and can still be reasoned with. Also Kuvira is also pretty good at persuasion in terms that she can manipulate people. Hell she even called a temporary truth with Zaofu so that Korra could convince to Su to surrender. Also she wouldn't make a move till Korra came back. But, since Su is going to try to eliminate Kuvira that would jusitfy Kuvira crushing Zaofu with her army. Also the rest of Nations would see Su as the Aggressor not Kuvira. 

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    • Part of that is Korra being out of the picture for so long and not really knowing what has been going on. I'm sure if she had heard that speech, Korra might have a few other words for Kuvira.

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    • Korra doesn't know kuvira is enslaving and threatening everyone yet

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    • It's kinda obvious that Kuvira will be heading to Republic City.

      First of all: They wouldn't make such a big deal about the fact that Asami built a traintrack from the Republic City to the Earth Kingdom if they weren't going to do anything with it this season.

      And the season would be kinda boring if Kuvira made a superweapon without using it... If she and her army defeat Zao Fu they're done with reuniting the Earth Kingdom and if the rest of the season would be about Team Avatar fighting Kuvira it would be a huge disappointment to me.

      Kuvira had a taste of power and she wants more and more. Plus the fact that this whole series is kind off based around Republic City makes it obvious that Kuvira will go to Republic City at one point in the season.

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    • I wonder what she is going to do tomorrow. I think she will defeat Zaofu and then Korra will see what she is really like.

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    • I agree with that. I think that Su will start to attack Kuriva and Korra will stop Su and Wei and Wing and then Kuriva will destroy Zaofu

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    • Cliffrussell wrote:
      I agree with that. I think that Su will start to attack Kuriva and Korra will stop Su and Wei and Wing and then Kuriva will destroy Zaofu

      I'm 1000 percent sure that will happen! I mean it can happen in other ways? Exept for talking, and everyone knew that is not going to happen.

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    • Cliffrussell wrote:
      I agree with that. I think that Su will start to attack Kuriva and Korra will stop Su and Wei and Wing and then Kuriva will destroy Zaofu

      So Korra's defending Kuvira? Doesn't she know she'll allow her to wreak havoc on the Earth Empire?

      Trust me. Helping Kuvira will be a bad idea.

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    • I am on board with the "Kuvira goes to Republic City" notion. It could be seen as Suyin's assassination attempt being part of a larger conspiracy from leaders related to Republic City against her. Also, Republic City is located within traditional Earth Kingdom territory, Kuvira may demand control of this land back, possibly with the attempt on her life as further justification.

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    • There's a good chance she wants RC to yield, but I think it will be more applicable to the story when Kuvira finally gets the spirt vine technology ready. I'd also suspect that Kuvira will have a good number of elements inside the city to assist (i.e. Kuvira supporters that we've seen several times already). 

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    • What I think is going to happen is that Kuvira will take over Zaofu, and work her way toward RC and have her supporters start havoc while she's on her way. Right before she enters RC Korra will intervein and they will have an epic fight Kuvira trying to hit Korra with the spirit vine energy and her metalbending. Or Kuvira will try to smuggle in a spirit vine bomb to act as a type of atomic bomb and threaten to blow up the city if they don't yeild

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      There's a good chance she wants RC to yield, but I think it will be more applicable to the story when Kuvira finally gets the spirt vine technology ready. I'd also suspect that Kuvira will have a good number of elements inside the city to assist (i.e. Kuvira supporters that we've seen several times already). 

      What I mentioned was the rationalization, the Spirit Vine WMDs very well may be the means.

      I am curious what the military power of the Fire Nation is right now, as I'm not too impressed with the Water Nation's military and a truly combined and organized Earth Nation will be quite formidable. If it were to break into full out war (which I do doubt, just because of the amount of episodes we're slated to have, but I would love to be surprised) it could be pretty rough for any of the other nations, particularly on the Earth Nation's turf.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Deist Zealot wrote:
      Except he did need Tenzin alive—but unable to immediately spill the beans; hence, gagging him—for the sake of the ruse.  I don't think he necessarily wanted to kill the airbenders; however, thanks to the ambiguity (and the very fact of the double-cross), I'm not gonna rule out him being entirely capable of going through with it.  As Korra stated in "The Ultimatum," I don't think he was the bluffing sort.
      He really didn't. I'll grant you that Tenzin does add more believability, and possibly that's what takes them off guard until they see his muffled warning and head gesture, but they probably would have fallen for it anyway. Maybe Tenzin was expendable, though Ghazan and Ming-Hua weren't really shown trying that hard to finish them off, more covering their escape (in the next episode we see them trying to eliminate Team Avatar). Who knows? He could have killed Tenzin and used the corpse or a dummy with his cloths back with the other puddles of water for the ruse. But even if I were to concede that point, this is a far cry from genocide, the original point of contention.

      "Ambiguity" and "the very fact of the double-cross"? How does that indicate he's willing to kill them? He kept them out of the combat zone and not dead. He's willing to use them as a bargaining chip, knowing full well Korra values them, but we don't see any real evidence of him being willing to kill them en masse. Keeping them, like he did (and again, them being dead and the bodies not recovered would make the same effect), potentially could have been a contingency plan for if he could not recover Korra in the likely event that she double crossed him (which she tried to, just, he did a better job at it). Korra believing he has the airbenders is enough for him to have leverage. Also, the very fact he doesn't kill them after returning to the Red Lotus hideout with Korra is a pretty decent case for him not wanting to kill them.

      And as we clearly see, Korra was wrong, Zaheer definitely is the bluffing type. We see a prime example of that when he orders Ghazan over the radio during the hostage negotiation to kill the airbenders, knowing full well that they puddles of water. The entire setup at the Air Temple, nearly an entire episode, was a bluff from Zaheer. 

      The fact that the "airbenders" were actually Ming-Hua's water puppets makes it less a bluff than a ruse.  What he was planning to do with them if he had managed to kill Korra is still a big question.

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    • He actually had the airbenders. It was within his power to have them all killed. He did this to trick Korra into doing what he wanted. It was both a bluff and a ruse.

      bluff1 bləf/noun #1.an attempt to deceive someone into believing that one can or will do something."the offer was denounced as a bluff"{| class="vk_tbl vk_gy" style="color:rgb(135,135,135)!important;border-collapse:collapse;" | class="lr_dct_nyms_ttl" style="font-style:italic;vertical-align:top;white-space:nowrap;padding:0px3px0px0px;"|synonyms: | style="padding:0px;"|deceptionfrontsubterfugepretense, posturing, shamfakedeceit,feinthoaxfacadefraudcharadeMore  |} verb #1.try to deceive someone as to one's abilities or intentions."he's been bluffing all along"{| class="vk_tbl vk_gy" style="color:rgb(135,135,135)!important;border-collapse:collapse;" | class="lr_dct_nyms_ttl" style="font-style:italic;vertical-align:top;white-space:nowrap;padding:0px3px0px0px;"|synonyms: | style="padding:0px;"|pretendshamfakefeignliehoaxposeposturemasquerade,dissembleMore   |}


      Not really, as he could have killed them at any point between capturing them and before he forced Korra's avatar state and it wouldn't have affected his plan at all (in fact, if he did kill them, he'd have successfully killed Korra and gotten away with it), yet he didn't do it. He needed Korra to believe that he was willing and able to kill the airbenders, he didn't need to actually do it.

      Very little, if anything, indicates he would actually kill them en masse.

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    • I'd find it a hell of a lot easier to believe that he wouldn't kill them if it wasn't for the following:

      • P'Li was shooting at Kai.
      • If there's one unequivocal redeeming character trait that we saw from P'Li, it was loyalty.
      • A sniper requires a keen eye.
      • Therefore, there's no way she hadn't been okayed to shoot at anyone in orange—even skinny little preteens.
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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      I'd find it a hell of a lot easier to believe that he wouldn't kill them if it wasn't for the following:
      • P'Li was shooting at Kai.
      • If there's one unequivocal redeeming character trait that we saw from P'Li, it was loyalty.
      • A sniper requires a keen eye.
      • Therefore, there's no way she hadn't been okayed to shoot at anyone in orange—even skinny little preteens.

      And that's your basis for believing that he'll kill all the airbenders? Hah! I've made my case.

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    • Who's agree with me that she is evil female counterpart of El Cid?

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    • I'm suprised no one is talking about comparing her to post-ww2 Mao, especially with all her talk of equality and redistribution of Zao Fu's wealth fairly...

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Deist Zealot wrote:
      I'd find it a hell of a lot easier to believe that he wouldn't kill them if it wasn't for the following:
      • P'Li was shooting at Kai.
      • If there's one unequivocal redeeming character trait that we saw from P'Li, it was loyalty.
      • A sniper requires a keen eye.
      • Therefore, there's no way she hadn't been okayed to shoot at anyone in orange—even skinny little preteens.
      And that's your basis for believing that he'll kill all the airbenders? Hah! I've made my case.

      First of all: nice invocation of Danth's Law there.

      Secondly: are you even aware of the sort of implications that there are to the fact that P'Li had so clearly been okayed to shoot at anyone in orange? 

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    • Grindcorezaza wrote:
      I'm suprised no one is talking about comparing her to post-ww2 Mao, especially with all her talk of equality and redistribution of Zao Fu's wealth fairly...

      Yep that's what I first thought. I didn't agree with all the Hitler comparisons. Kuvira has been way too reasonable and calm compared to Hitler. I actually think she appears to be encouraging and warm towards her subjects, much like Mao (if you've ever read Mao's writings you'll discover he talks in a friendly way when he speaks with normal people). Plus Mao also had reeducation camps that would seem more similar to that of Kuvira's (Hitler's concentration camps are made for mass genocide, not, at least until now, what seems to be what Kuvira is doing with her camps), as well as the idea of "distributing wealth among the people". Maybe it's just that not a lot of people are familiar with Asian history and they're making comparisons with the Western world instead...

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    • I think these quotes from Jonathan Irons in Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare sum up Kuvira's views: 

      " So let me be clear, I am here to solve the world's problems, and I believe the problems begin with you"

      I can also picture Kuvira saying this to the Avatar and her allies (also paraphrased from Jonathan Irons):

      Kuvira:  "What I've started won't end with me.  It's bigger than me, and it's certainly bigger than you.  You think I'm a monster?  That's only because you don't have the conviction to do what's necessary."

      Korra: "Necessary?  The attack on Zaofu, placing people in slave labor?  Reeducation camps?  Threatening innocent lives who don't deserve it!  

      Kuvira:  "I'm saving the world from itself!  When there's no one left to challenge the Earth Empire, there will be no more wars.  There had to be sacrifices along the way!"

      Korra: "All my twisted enemies and all Aang's crazy enemies have used the same argument!"

      I can picture Kuvira saying something like this.  Do you think these quotes fit her personality?

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    • Deist Zealot wrote:
      Weltall8000 wrote:
      Deist Zealot wrote:
      I'd find it a hell of a lot easier to believe that he wouldn't kill them if it wasn't for the following:
      • P'Li was shooting at Kai.
      • If there's one unequivocal redeeming character trait that we saw from P'Li, it was loyalty.
      • A sniper requires a keen eye.
      • Therefore, there's no way she hadn't been okayed to shoot at anyone in orange—even skinny little preteens.
      And that's your basis for believing that he'll kill all the airbenders? Hah! I've made my case.
      First of all: nice invocation of Danth's Law there.

      Secondly: are you even aware of the sort of implications that there are to the fact that P'Li had so clearly been okayed to shoot at anyone in orange? 

      Essentially, it boils down to you just hate Zaheer. Having seen your comments in a few other threads in regards to him today, it basically just confirmed my suspicion and then some (one of my favorites, to paraphrase "I hope someone kills Zaheer in prison and he ends up in the fog in the Spirit World so we never have to see him again"). You've repeatedly failed to give significant evidence that he would kill the airbenders en masse, but fine, I'll humor you once more.

      At absolute best, you've shown two characters (whom put up some of the most resistence) that he may have been okay with killing. Noting that in neither case was he even the one that was in a position to kill them at the point in time in question (noting that he already spared Tenzin despite having an all out battle with him), nor was he shown giving the order to have either specifically killed, particularly with Kai. I'm not saying he is above killing any of them under any circumstance, but I am maintaining (pretty effectively) that he shows a reluctance to kill airbenders (much like he does with civilians in general), particularly the group of them as a whole. He's neither shown killing them, even when he has the chance to do so, nor is killing them even consistent with his overall MO. IF he were to kill/want to kill Tenzin, it could have made sense in the context that he was targeting world leaders, but even then, we do not see a clear attempt on his life by Zaheer or even his allies. And again, killing Tenzin =/= killing airbenders en masse.

      Are you even aware that the majority of the airbenders weren't lethally targeted by P'Li and that she could have killed the majority of them had she been so inclined? Also, P'Li isn't a robot and can act on her own discretion. Zaheer very well may not have told her one way or the other that she could or couldn't kill any airbenders. Perhaps he said not to kill them unless they seemed like a serious threat to the operation. Maybe he said don't kill any of them, but she took it upon herself to kill Kai for the sake of the operation. Who knows? You certainly don't, and that flimsy line of reasoning is pretty much your position at this point, to argue an uphill battle to somehow establish that Zaheer was down with killing the Air Nation again, despite it being contrary to his character both in motivation and in actions.

      And with that, I'll note that I'm not particularly interested in discussing this tangent with you as, I get it, you hate Zaheer and you want to think the worst of him and you don't really have much by way of a valid rebuttal anyway so I'm not getting too terribly much out of discussing this with you at this point. Call it Danth's Law if it makes you feel better, but from here it's looking like you legit got rekt. So, we good with just going back to the main topic of Kuvira?

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    • Torresp wrote:
      I think these quotes from Jonathan Irons in Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare sum up Kuvira's views: 

      " So let me be clear, I am here to solve the world's problems, and I believe the problems begin with you"

      I can also picture Kuvira saying this to the Avatar and her allies (also paraphrased from Jonathan Irons):

      Kuvira:  "What I've started won't end with me.  It's bigger than me, and it's certainly bigger than you.  You think I'm a monster?  That's only because you don't have the conviction to do what's necessary."

      Korra: "Necessary?  The attack on Zaofu, placing people in slave labor?  Reeducation camps?  Threatening innocent lives who don't deserve it!  

      Kuvira:  "I'm saving the world from itself!  When there's no one left to challenge the Earth Empire, there will be no more wars.  There had to be sacrifices along the way!"

      Korra: "All my twisted enemies and all Aang's crazy enemies have used the same argument!"

      I can picture Kuvira saying something like this.  Do you think these quotes fit her personality?

      To be fair, the "attack on Zaofu" was basically just Kuvira capturing Suyin and her two sons when they snuck into her camp to kill her, and then Kuvira beating down the Avatar in a duel. The rest was just marching. "The attack on Zaofu" does not make for strong rhetoric.

      Moving on, barring the relatively extreme compulsion of citizens to be loyal to Kuvira's government, she doesn't sound all that bad, relatively speaking. Other leaders might just wipe out entire populations without giving them the choice to join. Ozai for instance was ready to scorch the Earth Kingdom. I don't agree with or like her methods, but it doesn't seem all that bad when looking at history in their world or ours.

      Most interestingly though, Kuvira's last line is basically what the Avatar has done, it's basically a WMD that can walk in and threaten or even topple entire governments if it so chooses and has done so in the past.

      But, you have a point, I could see them have a similar conversation.

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    • Kuvira is an asshole and I kinda want her obliberated by that superweapon Varrick is forced to create. Howewer, she was just another idealist, just like Amon, Old man Uni and Zaheer, who tried to reach her goal by force.

      However, she threatened Varrick. While I felt sorry for Amon, Uni and Zaheers gang, I really want her to die painfully.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:

      Torresp wrote:
      I think these quotes from Jonathan Irons in Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare sum up Kuvira's views: 

      " So let me be clear, I am here to solve the world's problems, and I believe the problems begin with you"

      I can also picture Kuvira saying this to the Avatar and her allies (also paraphrased from Jonathan Irons):

      Kuvira:  "What I've started won't end with me.  It's bigger than me, and it's certainly bigger than you.  You think I'm a monster?  That's only because you don't have the conviction to do what's necessary."

      Korra: "Necessary?  The attack on Zaofu, placing people in slave labor?  Reeducation camps?  Threatening innocent lives who don't deserve it!  

      Kuvira:  "I'm saving the world from itself!  When there's no one left to challenge the Earth Empire, there will be no more wars.  There had to be sacrifices along the way!"

      Korra: "All my twisted enemies and all Aang's crazy enemies have used the same argument!"

      I can picture Kuvira saying something like this.  Do you think these quotes fit her personality?

      To be fair, the "attack on Zaofu" was basically just Kuvira capturing Suyin and her two sons when they snuck into her camp to kill her, and then Kuvira beating down the Avatar in a duel. The rest was just marching. "The attack on Zaofu" does not make for strong rhetoric.

      Moving on, barring the relatively extreme compulsion of citizens to be loyal to Kuvira's government, she doesn't sound all that bad, relatively speaking. Other leaders might just wipe out entire populations without giving them the choice to join. Ozai for instance was ready to scorch the Earth Kingdom. I don't agree with or like her methods, but it doesn't seem all that bad when looking at history in their world or ours.

      Most interestingly though, Kuvira's last line is basically what the Avatar has done, it's basically a WMD that can walk in and threaten or even topple entire governments if it so chooses and has done so in the past.

      But, you have a point, I could see them have a similar conversation.

      No, the last line is basically the same argument that not only Korra's enemies have used, but it's also the same argument twisted infamous people in history have ever used. It was those arguments that were used to justify attacking innocent lives. Even the Avatar would never do that.

      But still, don't you think she's very similar to Jonathan Irons from Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare? just watch only the beginning cutscenes (not the whole video), and you will see what I mean:

      http://youtu.be/VXS91eGPt-Y http://youtu.be/1c8dRRhh1r8

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    • No, the last line is basically the same argument that not only Korra's enemies have used, but it's also the same argument twisted infamous people in history have ever used. It was those arguments that were used to justify attacking innocent lives. Even the Avatar would never do that.

      When I said "basically what the Avatar has done" it wasn't necessarily about slaughtering people, rather that mindset of "I have the right path for the world and I am willing and able to use force."


      But still, don't you think she's very similar to Jonathan Irons from Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare? just watch only the beginning cutscenes (not the whole video), and you will see what I mean:

      Bear in mind, I'm not particularly familiar with the character and all I know of him is basically from the beginning cutscene, but there are some vague similarities between that and what we've seen of Kuvira. Though, she is a member of the class that he criticizes (she's leader of a government of a nation). I don't think we've seen her outright say anything to the effect that she's going to end war. I think it's premature to make such a claim. Maybe she will later and invalidate what I'm saying, but at the moment, this is where we're at.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      No, the last line is basically the same argument that not only Korra's enemies have used, but it's also the same argument twisted infamous people in history have ever used. It was those arguments that were used to justify attacking innocent lives. Even the Avatar would never do that.

      When I said "basically what the Avatar has done" it wasn't necessarily about slaughtering people, rather that mindset of "I have the right path for the world and I am willing and able to use force."


      But still, don't you think she's very similar to Jonathan Irons from Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare? just watch only the beginning cutscenes (not the whole video), and you will see what I mean:

      Bear in mind, I'm not particularly familiar with the character and all I know of him is basically from the beginning cutscene, but there are some vague similarities between that and what we've seen of Kuvira. Though, she is a member of the class that he criticizes (she's leader of a government of a nation). I don't think we've seen her outright say anything to the effect that she's going to end war. I think it's premature to make such a claim. Maybe she will later and invalidate what I'm saying, but at the moment, this is where we're at.

      Well, she technically wasn't the leader of a government, just a non-governmental army whose inital aim was to restore order.  Second, she does want to end war--in the Earth Kingdom, because it was in a state of war for centuries.  Now, I can name even more similiarities between Irons and his army and Kuvira and the Earth Empire (Quotes taken from custscenes in Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare:

      Irons: (Atlas Advertisement) "Four years ago, One man tried to destroy our way of life.  One man tried to throw the world into Darkness.  It felt like we could never find our way back.  But we did.  Together.  When you were vulnerable, we gave you our strength.   When you were sick, we delivered you the cure.  When there was chaos, we brought you order.  Stability, safety, a chance to start again.  Who are we? (Displays Atlas Logo) We're the way forward." 

      If you want, the video with this is below (watch up to 1:41):

      http://youtu.be/jo4kbHel_4Q?t=56s

      The thing about Atlas is that looked too good to be true, only to reveal much later the sinister workings later on.  

      Just replace "four" with "three", and "Atlas" with "Earth Empire", and try to see if the rest of the description fits with what Kuvira believes she is doing.  I can greatly imagine that Kuvira would say stuff like this, but it hides the inner truth about the empire.  

      Or, here's another scene where Irons describes Atlas.  Just ignore the statements of being for hire, and you will see how similar Atlas is to Kuvira's Earth Empire (start at 9:49, watch up to 10:34):

      http://youtu.be/XgGr2T0U9vM?t=9m49s

      Now, here's the trailer for the game itself, and pay particular attention to the ending where Irons speaks, because I also think it's also in line with Kuvira. 

      http://youtu.be/pUysNWHffWg

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    • Well, she technically wasn't the leader of a government, just a non-governmental army whose inital aim was to restore order. 

      Wasn't before. Is now.

      Second, she does want to end war--in the Earth Kingdom, because it was in a state of war for centuries.

      I meant in the sense that she's reforming the whole world and this will be a permanent solution that cuts to the very origins of war. She very well may end up doing this, but as of now, she's not revealed anything approaching that. Reuniting a broken nation is not that.

      Now, I can name even more similiarities between Irons and his army and Kuvira and the Earth Empire (Quotes taken from custscenes in Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare:

      I mean, in some very broad strokes, they seem to have some similarities based on what I'm hearing here and in the linked video, sure. But again, I really don't know this character, so I can't really comment at length. Maybe they're super similar, I don't know. To be completely honest, I don't really care about CoD or its characters, and I'm not particularly interested in spending the time sifting through videos of it in acquainting myself with them. It hasn't piqued my curiosity. Not trying to be mean, just making it clear before it goes down this road. I do appreciate the links and attempts to bring me up to speed on it however. Perhaps someone else is interested in comparing the two characters, and that's cool, but I'm not.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Well, she technically wasn't the leader of a government, just a non-governmental army whose inital aim was to restore order. 

      Wasn't before. Is now.

      Second, she does want to end war--in the Earth Kingdom, because it was in a state of war for centuries.

      I meant in the sense that she's reforming the whole world and this will be a permanent solution that cuts to the very origins of war. She very well may end up doing this, but as of now, she's not revealed anything approaching that. Reuniting a broken nation is not that.

      Now, I can name even more similiarities between Irons and his army and Kuvira and the Earth Empire (Quotes taken from custscenes in Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare:

      I mean, in some very broad strokes, they seem to have some similarities based on what I'm hearing here and in the linked video, sure. But again, I really don't know this character, so I can't really comment at length. Maybe they're super similar, I don't know. To be completely honest, I don't really care about CoD or its characters, and I'm not particularly interested in spending the time sifting through videos of it in acquainting myself with them. It hasn't piqued my curiosity. Not trying to be mean, just making it clear before it goes down this road. I do appreciate the links and attempts to bring me up to speed on it however. Perhaps someone else is interested in comparing the two characters, and that's cool, but I'm not.

      Well, I'm kinda waiting to hear from someone else.  

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    • Implord wrote:
      Kuvira is an asshole and I kinda want her obliberated by that superweapon Varrick is forced to create. Howewer, she was just another idealist, just like Amon, Old man Uni and Zaheer, who tried to reach her goal by force.

      However, she threatened Varrick. While I felt sorry for Amon, Uni and Zaheers gang, I really want her to die painfully.

      I want her torture to death! Like took away both her and her who-to-be-husband skin and burn them alive!

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    • I've been expressing alot of my thoughts today with pictures, but I think it seems appropriate here. Here is what Im seeing in each character

      Raiko and Tenzin

      "Not gonna fight until they come here"

      Vaatu escapes during Harmonic Convergence

      Korra: Just like last time...





      Hiroshi and Asami

      Hiroshi, the only one who can "equalize the odds"

      Mako comforting Wu

      "Will attend the reunion, only to find what Kuvira's up to and drop the whole Mako guard thing"





      Varrick and Bolin

      "Hey guys, we're back"

      File:Zhu Li proposal.png





      Lin and Opal talk

      "When your parents and siblings are gone you still have your aunt and uncle as family" -Bolin

      Baatar saddened

      "We're good parents for 80% of children"





      Kuvira

      "I hold no morality"

      Korra confronting herself

      "2spooky4me"









      If Kuvira were to be killed... just a prediction...

      Out of any character, Opal seems to have been hurt by Kuvira's actions in this book. Brother becomes an main antagonist while imprisioning her other brothers and parents. Boyfriend is threatened and enslaved while Kuvira insists Bolin is against her, straining their relationship. Shes seen villages she's tried to help get enslaved. Mom/Dad's city has been conqoured.

      She was also willing to break Oath to attack someone like Kuvira. She probably wants to kill Kuvira more than any other character. Let her learn the ways of Zaheer to deal with Kuvira properly

      Korra and Opal airbend

      "Can you teach me that lethal airbending move?"

      Korra suffocated

      "You know... that one Zaheer used at Lahima's peek?"





      Korra tears up

      PTSD *triggered*

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    • What's the deal with the Kuvira "I hold no morality" phrase? It seems like I've seen that a few times around here. (Was this a line I missed in the show?)

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    • This is it, the Free world will not stand for this and will declare war on Kuvira.  But, how can the rest of the world stand against the world's most advanced, largest standing military?  

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      What's the deal with the Kuvira "I hold no morality" phrase? It seems like I've seen that a few times around here. (Was this a line I missed in the show?)

      The main difference between Kuvira and the other villains, is there is no morality to what she is doing

      Amon offered equality

      Unalaq returned spirits

      Zaheer offered Freedom

      Some people in the Avatar world find what they're doing good, but others do not


      Kuvira keeps claiming what shes doing is good while contradicting what she says. There is nothing good about what shes doing

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    • If freedom is considered moral, order and security are on the scale as well (as they are the other side of freedom).

      While I'm not a fan of Kuvira's apparent general notion of where the line should lay, I can still see how some, many in fact, could view the general thrust of her movement as good. I don't identify with it, but I can see it.

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    • Thinklogic wrote:
      Weltall8000 wrote:
      What's the deal with the Kuvira "I hold no morality" phrase? It seems like I've seen that a few times around here. (Was this a line I missed in the show?)
      The main difference between Kuvira and the other villains, is there is no morality to what she is doing

      Amon offered equality

      Unalaq returned spirits

      Zaheer offered Freedom

      Some people in the Avatar world find what they're doing good, but others do not


      Kuvira keeps claiming what shes doing is good while contradicting what she says. There is nothing good about what shes doing

      True.  She's just like Superman from Injustice: Gods Among us:

      I imagine Korra's next interaction with Kuvira will be like this: http://youtu.be/1S94YcdW7Hc?t=10m57s

      Kuvira is also like Jonathan Irons as shown here: http://youtu.be/pUysNWHffWg pay particular attention to his line at 2:22.  

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    • Thinklogic wrote:
      Weltall8000 wrote:
      What's the deal with the Kuvira "I hold no morality" phrase? It seems like I've seen that a few times around here. (Was this a line I missed in the show?)
      The main difference between Kuvira and the other villains, is there is no morality to what she is doing

      Amon offered equality

      Unalaq returned spirits

      Zaheer offered Freedom

      Some people in the Avatar world find what they're doing good, but others do not


      Kuvira keeps claiming what shes doing is good while contradicting what she says. There is nothing good about what shes doing

      What do you mean that she's offering no morality? She's offering equality (under her rule) and order or stability from the last three years of chaos. There's even that modernity and prosperity approach that was the core of her initial beliefs before she turned to the dark side.

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      Thinklogic wrote:
      Weltall8000 wrote:
      What's the deal with the Kuvira "I hold no morality" phrase? It seems like I've seen that a few times around here. (Was this a line I missed in the show?)
      The main difference between Kuvira and the other villains, is there is no morality to what she is doing

      Amon offered equality

      Unalaq returned spirits

      Zaheer offered Freedom

      Some people in the Avatar world find what they're doing good, but others do not


      Kuvira keeps claiming what shes doing is good while contradicting what she says. There is nothing good about what shes doing

      What do you mean that she's offering no morality? She's offering equality (under her rule) and order or stability from the last three years of chaos. There's even that modernity and prosperity approach that was the core of her initial beliefs before she turned to the dark side.

      "This is not about equality this is about control!"

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    • Nice rhetoric. As an aside, are hoarding and clinging to power, equality?

      Also, while the imagery in the restraints is pretty jarring, bear in mind this is in the wake of a botched assassination attempt Suyin committed against a national leader...in the middle of the night...during a truce. That's kind of a mitigating factor.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Nice rhetoric. As an aside, are hoarding and clinging to power, equality?

      Also, while the imagery in the restraints is pretty jarring, bear in mind this is in the wake of a botched assassination attempt Suyin committed against a national leader...in the middle of the night...during a truce. That's kind of a mitigating factor.

      Kind of? Do that with any modern nation and you're probably getting "accidentally" shot by the bodyguards.

      If it wasn't for the spirit vine superweapon, the "entrainment camps" and the hired bandits, Kuvira wouldn't be a villain. She would at worst be a controversial figure.

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    • Can't we just state that about everyone in the series is an asshole, right now?  Name one person who acts like a sane person would probably do. Apart from Mako, who's got a job which should make him the emotional most unstable character (I don't like children and I dont suffer people gladly who should be adult but seem to haven't got the memo). And Ikki. I like Ikki.

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    • LM3014 wrote:
      Weltall8000 wrote:
      Nice rhetoric. As an aside, are hoarding and clinging to power, equality?

      Also, while the imagery in the restraints is pretty jarring, bear in mind this is in the wake of a botched assassination attempt Suyin committed against a national leader...in the middle of the night...during a truce. That's kind of a mitigating factor.

      Kind of? Do that with any modern nation and you're probably getting "accidentally" shot by the bodyguards.

      If it wasn't for the spirit vine superweapon, the "entrainment camps" and the hired bandits, Kuvira wouldn't be a villain. She would at worst be a controversial figure.

      My text is always in italics so I may not have noticed but, If I didn't, I meant to italicize the "kind of" part. When I said "That's kind of a mitigating factor" what I really meant was "That absolutely was a mitigating factor."

      I don't think possessing a super weapon is ipso facto bad, any more than having a national military is. It's what you do with it that is important.

      So, would you argue that prison with the intent to rehabilitate and reintroduce inmates into society eventually is bad?

      "Hired bandits"? Perhaps I missed it, but could you link to where it's proven she hired bandits to assault towns?

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    • Poet Laghima wrote:
      Grindcorezaza wrote:
      I'm suprised no one is talking about comparing her to post-ww2 Mao, especially with all her talk of equality and redistribution of Zao Fu's wealth fairly...
      Yep that's what I first thought. I didn't agree with all the Hitler comparisons. Kuvira has been way too reasonable and calm compared to Hitler. I actually think she appears to be encouraging and warm towards her subjects, much like Mao (if you've ever read Mao's writings you'll discover he talks in a friendly way when he speaks with normal people). Plus Mao also had reeducation camps that would seem more similar to that of Kuvira's (Hitler's concentration camps are made for mass genocide, not, at least until now, what seems to be what Kuvira is doing with her camps), as well as the idea of "distributing wealth among the people". Maybe it's just that not a lot of people are familiar with Asian history and they're making comparisons with the Western world instead...

      As always, sadly.

      And obviously, people have always to freaking compare every goddamn villain [fictional... or not] with Hitler. just because he T-bagged a lot of people and grabbed some territories, this isn't the single historical inspiration people would draw from. And actually, genocide and territorial conquest is something humans have been doing since... ever. you see... Hitler was just another one.

      Anyways, nice comparison there!! If they're following that pattern, sounds like no one is gonna mess with the Earth Empire for quite some time hehe... maybe the Earth Kingdom[Empire] will once more rise to be the badass MF it was way before the whole crap [Kyoshi killing Chin, HYW, Hou-Ting murder, etc] begun.  

      We could also use Generalissimo Chiang Kai Shek as an example. started initially as a warlord, anti-monarchy, somewhat fascist-styled ideology, saw himself in the duty of pacifying and uniting Republican China, thrown in a warlord state, chaotic ever since the end of the Great Qing Empire...  bent on unifying China, he tried to did what Mao did later, however most of his plans were halted due to the sudden Japanese invasion.

      Another example could be Meiji Japan, although it lacked a great ruler/leader like what Kuvira represents. It also united the nation, ended feudalism overthrowing the shogunate (seen as backwards and unfit for the present days), militarized the country and also started annexing and conquering territory

      . Quite a controversial period on its own, seen for 'great' achievements but also for placing Japan on the same pattern of imperialist agression that western nations had already been doing. [it makes sense, considering that the FN parallels imperialism, spec. on the 18-19th century. now Kuvira might represent the rise of imperialist Asia, with the rise of Japan]. 

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:

      My text is always in italics so I may not have noticed but, If I didn't, I meant to italicize the "kind of" part. When I said "That's kind of a mitigating factor" what I really meant was "That absolutely was a mitigating factor."

      I don't think possessing a super weapon is ipso facto bad, any more than having a national military is. It's what you do with it that is important.

      So, would you argue that prison with the intent to rehabilitate and reintroduce inmates into society eventually is bad?

      "Hired bandits"? Perhaps I missed it, but could you link to where it's proven she hired bandits to assault towns?

      Oops, didn't realize the italics meant thant.

      Possessing a super-weapon is not in itself a bad thing, but the way Kuvira is going about acquiring hers is certainly villain territory.

      If the entrainment camps are just that, OK. I just don't think they are. It's heavily implied that they are some kind of torture camp. In her defense, not death camps, it seems.

      I was just throwing all the things that could characterize her as a villain. I can't prove this accusation either.

      In the end, Kuvira is a pretty swell girl. Brave, smart, great bender, highly aggressive. The worst thing she has done on camera is menacing Varrick with death to convince him to do his job. Certainly villain territory, but just that? Come on! Then she also tried to kill the Avatar in a duel... seconds after the Avatar tried to kill her, so it doesn't count.

      They will probably show something horrible happening in the entrainment camps, milk the superweapon thing as much as possible and make her go into a highly aggressive campaign of conquest against the URN. Probably make her go insane too. Otherwise, they will need another villain to make this season interesting. Diplomacy and politics are just boring :).

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    • I would have actually been impressed with them if they let Kuvira get taken out (death, loss of bending, imprisonment, something) and then blindside us with someone/something else. It might still happen.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      I would have actually been impressed with them if they let Kuvira get taken out (death, loss of bending, imprisonment, something) and then blindside us with someone/something else. It might still happen.

      I want Kuvira and her fiance to suffer. In a way that the Native Indian Women did to Governor Ratcliffe.

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    • Kuvira was just like all the other three villains from the past seasons of TLK. And also like Fire Lord Sozin. Overly idealistic, Heroes wanna be, gone crazy cuckoos = Villains/Antagonist! 

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    • Amihan wrote:
      Kuvira was just like all the other three villains from the past seasons of TLK. And also like Fire Lord Sozin. Overly idealistic, Heroes wanna be, gone crazy cuckoos = Villains/Antagonist! 

      Are you kidding me?  The argument of her having to make tough decisions?  Twisted ****s throughout Korra's and Aang's history have used the same argument, and we all know how it went down.  I have a feeling Kuvira  will go down a power-hungry madwoman.  

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    • Torresp wrote:

      Are you kidding me?  The argument of her having to make tough decisions?  Twisted ****s throughout Korra's and Aang's history have used the same argument, and we all know how it went down.  I have a feeling Kuvira  will go down a power-hungry madwoman.  

      Exactly my point.. Cause sh'e one crazy woman!

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    • Amihan wrote:
      Torresp wrote:

      Are you kidding me?  The argument of her having to make tough decisions?  Twisted ****s throughout Korra's and Aang's history have used the same argument, and we all know how it went down.  I have a feeling Kuvira  will go down a power-hungry madwoman.  

      Exactly my point.. Cause sh'e one crazy woman!


      She'll die in disgrace.

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    • Kuvira goes back to the entire secret keeping thing

      Once you join her she reveals the truth of what shes doing, and whether you like it or not you cant quit. If you wanna quit you get sent to an re-education camp until you are willing to work again. Baatar Jr mentions "you're working for Kuvira you dont get to quit". He doesnt allow Varrick, Bolin and Zhu Li to escape and at the end of E6, Kuvira asks Baatar Jr to be certain Bolin and Varrick are dead. Cant let them tell everyone else of Kuvira's intentions.

      Also when Opal asks "wheres Bolin? He'd never go through with something like this". Kuvira responds that hes working with her fianse on something very important. Are you sure its not "my boss is threatening me and not letting me quit"

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    • Implord wrote:
      Amihan wrote:
      Torresp wrote:

      Are you kidding me?  The argument of her having to make tough decisions?  Twisted ****s throughout Korra's and Aang's history have used the same argument, and we all know how it went down.  I have a feeling Kuvira  will go down a power-hungry madwoman.  

      Exactly my point.. Cause sh'e one crazy woman!

      She'll die in disgrace.

      For once I actually want Korra to kill her. But no like Unalaq's death that didn't even look or feel like a death(I thought all she had done was purify Vaatu or something leaving only Unalaq). I want her to be killed by the avatar like Chin. 

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    • Urano23 wrote:
      Implord wrote:
      Amihan wrote:
      Torresp wrote:

      Are you kidding me?  The argument of her having to make tough decisions?  Twisted ****s throughout Korra's and Aang's history have used the same argument, and we all know how it went down.  I have a feeling Kuvira  will go down a power-hungry madwoman.  

      Exactly my point.. Cause sh'e one crazy woman!

      She'll die in disgrace.
      For once I actually want Korra to kill her. But no like Unalaq's death that didn't even look or feel like a death(I thought all she had done was purify Vaatu or something leaving only Unalaq). I want her to be killed by the avatar like Chin. 

      I want Kuvira to be dead to too! But I want her suffer first!

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    • Torresp wrote:
      Thinklogic wrote:
      Weltall8000 wrote:
      What's the deal with the Kuvira "I hold no morality" phrase? It seems like I've seen that a few times around here. (Was this a line I missed in the show?)
      The main difference between Kuvira and the other villains, is there is no morality to what she is doing

      Amon offered equality

      Unalaq returned spirits

      Zaheer offered Freedom

      Some people in the Avatar world find what they're doing good, but others do not


      Kuvira keeps claiming what shes doing is good while contradicting what she says. There is nothing good about what shes doing

      True.  She's just like Superman from Injustice: Gods Among us:

      I imagine Korra's next interaction with Kuvira will be like this: http://youtu.be/1S94YcdW7Hc?t=10m57s

      Kuvira is also like Jonathan Irons as shown here: http://youtu.be/pUysNWHffWg pay particular attention to his line at 2:22.  

      Kuvira does remind me of Adam Sandler Superman without the whole accidently killed Louis despair debacle.

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    • Kuvira could be comared to Napolean (Weather or not he was a villian can be debated.) But he went from a military leader to an emperor. Kuvira's earth kingdom will need to be opposed by the other nations armies, because it was already showen Korra is too weak to stop her for whatever reason. Korra must need to learn something from Aand because compare Aang fighing Ozai to Korra fighting Kuvira. It is possible this could be the next great war and Korra will learn allot from it.

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    • I think very few seemed to have noticed that Kuvira is proving Red Lotus Order right. Without chaos, the natural order of things, there will always be another tyrant or dictator trying to seize the power. (I remember a certain Polish caricaturist wonderfully demonstrating this phenomenon through his drawings)....There is a reason why Season 3 is strategically written -- to get people think about Zaheer's unpopular yet thought-worthy point of view. 

      As for Kuvira-Hitler comparisons... wellm she could be compared with any political leader that tries to seize power by fooling others that she's doing the right thing. I might as well compare her with Stalin (thoguh the latter was paranoid). The world is full of political leaders like them. Even today. Hitler just happened to be the top dog in that department.

      Writers of the series are caricaturists and making a point. What Kuvira does has a name. It's called Stockholm Syndrome --- people fall in love with their captors. It's how Kuvira is seizing the power to an extent that most thinks she's not at a fault. Bolster that with short-term aid, then the whole country is behind you, giving you the power to silently rule out opposition....Well, history is full of sorry cases like these. Just read stuff.  

      Bottom of the line, I wish that Red Lotus Order has something more to play in this series. I think Zaheer might make a comeback.

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    • Bersarker wrote:
      Urano23 wrote:
      Implord wrote:
      Amihan wrote:
      Torresp wrote:

      Are you kidding me?  The argument of her having to make tough decisions?  Twisted ****s throughout Korra's and Aang's history have used the same argument, and we all know how it went down.  I have a feeling Kuvira  will go down a power-hungry madwoman.  

      Exactly my point.. Cause sh'e one crazy woman!

      She'll die in disgrace.
      For once I actually want Korra to kill her. But no like Unalaq's death that didn't even look or feel like a death(I thought all she had done was purify Vaatu or something leaving only Unalaq). I want her to be killed by the avatar like Chin. 
      I want Kuvira to be dead to too! But I want her suffer first!


      That's no good. It'd make Korra as bad as she is.

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    • WampaLumpa wrote:
      I think very few seemed to have noticed that Kuvira is proving Red Lotus Order right. Without chaos, the natural order of things, there will always be another tyrant or dictator trying to seize the power. (I remember a certain Polish caricaturist wonderfully demonstrating this phenomenon through his drawings)....There is a reason why Season 3 is strategically written -- to get people think about Zaheer's unpopular yet thought-worthy point of view. 

      As for Kuvira-Hitler comparisons... wellm she could be compared with any political leader that tries to seize power by fooling others that she's doing the right thing. I might as well compare her with Stalin (thoguh the latter was paranoid). The world is full of political leaders like them. Even today. Hitler just happened to be the top dog in that department.

      Writers of the series are caricaturists and making a point. What Kuvira does has a name. It's called Stockholm Syndrome --- people fall in love with their captors. It's how Kuvira is seizing the power to an extent that most thinks she's not at a fault. Bolster that with short-term aid, then the whole country is behind you, giving you the power to silently rule out opposition....Well, history is full of sorry cases like these. Just read stuff.  

      Bottom of the line, I wish that Red Lotus Order has something more to play in this series. I think Zaheer might make a comeback.

      I agree the Red Lotus should have more of a part in Book 4 than what they have so far. They have been some of the most compelling villains we've seen in the series so far. I think a majority of the reason why Book 3 was so good is because of the suspense that built up along with these villains--who are they, why did they come together, and how are their bending abilities so badass? And what is their past? We still have that mystery of how Zuko, Tenzin, Sokka, and Tonraq managed to stop them on that night 16 years ago. Things like these keep the audience speculating. Sadly we never got to know their backstory, or maybe not yet. We'll see

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    • Implord wrote:
      Bersarker wrote:
      Urano23 wrote:
      Implord wrote:
      Amihan wrote:
      Torresp wrote:

      Are you kidding me?  The argument of her having to make tough decisions?  Twisted ****s throughout Korra's and Aang's history have used the same argument, and we all know how it went down.  I have a feeling Kuvira  will go down a power-hungry madwoman.  

      Exactly my point.. Cause sh'e one crazy woman!

      She'll die in disgrace.
      For once I actually want Korra to kill her. But no like Unalaq's death that didn't even look or feel like a death(I thought all she had done was purify Vaatu or something leaving only Unalaq). I want her to be killed by the avatar like Chin. 
      I want Kuvira to be dead to too! But I want her suffer first!

      That's no good. It'd make Korra as bad as she is.

      Don't she and her fiance deserve that? Well you see what did she had done! I like to called her as evil female counterpart of El Cid!

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    • Bersarker wrote:

      Don't she and her fiance deserve that? Well you see what did she had done! I like to called her as evil female counterpart of El Cid!

      What did she do to deserve torture?

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    • Bersarker wrote:

      Don't she and her fiance deserve that? Well you see what did she had done! I like to called her as evil female counterpart of El Cid!

      Isn't El Cid revered as a national hero?

      Your seemingly irrational and excessive hatred for her is kinda disturbing.

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    • It seems people get really upset about political stuff. Guys, so much hatred is not healthy. Just enjoy the series! 

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Bersarker wrote:

      Don't she and her fiance deserve that? Well you see what did she had done! I like to called her as evil female counterpart of El Cid!

      Isn't El Cid revered as a national hero?

      Your seemingly irrational and excessive hatred for her is kinda disturbing.

      I'm not quite sure how Kuvira is a counterpart to a character who fought in a time of a divided land of two major cultures (not counting the problem of land versus religion loyalty), but still respected the enemy's culture.

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    • -Darjeeling- wrote:
      It seems people get really upset about political stuff. Guys, so much hatred is not healthy. Just enjoy the series! 

      I enjoy the series because of political stuff. It mirrors real life events. It brought much character into the series. As for hatred being healthy or not, there's this saying by Edward Abbey: "You can't study the darkness by flooding it with light." 

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Bersarker wrote:

      Don't she and her fiance deserve that? Well you see what did she had done! I like to called her as evil female counterpart of El Cid!

      Isn't El Cid revered as a national hero?

      Your seemingly irrational and excessive hatred for her is kinda disturbing.

      My hatred is also very strong. But if you take a life, do it because it's the only way to protect other lifes. If you wished that persons death, it's your right. Death is supposed to happen and her death makes the world better. But if Kuvira where to be tortured, it would make her a matyr.

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    • Says who?

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      Weltall8000 wrote:
      Bersarker wrote:

      Don't she and her fiance deserve that? Well you see what did she had done! I like to called her as evil female counterpart of El Cid!

      Isn't El Cid revered as a national hero?

      Your seemingly irrational and excessive hatred for her is kinda disturbing.

      I'm not quite sure how Kuvira is a counterpart to a character who fought in a time of a divided land of two major cultures (not counting the problem of land versus religion loyalty), but still respected the enemy's culture.

      I mean about the way she and El Cid are trying to unite all lands to be under a command of someone. For El Cid, he did for Alfonso XI of Castile and Leon while Kuvira just do it for herself.

      For the other things, they have a lot in common. In my point of view of course!

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    • Well, El Cid fought for Alfonso's brother first and eventually he was essentially pushed out by Alfonso. There are some similarities with the political maneuvering later in life, but it's not really for territorial gain. The biggest problem is that El Cid was open to collaborative planning or tactics, while Kuvira seems to largely focused on her plans with that hint of seclusion. 

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      Well, El Cid fought for Alfonso's brother first and eventually he was essentially pushed out by Alfonso. There are some similarities with the political maneuvering later in life, but it's not really for territorial gain. The biggest problem is that El Cid was open to collaborative planning or tactics, while Kuvira seems to largely focused on her plans with that hint of seclusion. 

      Thanks... here another questions... do you think Earth Empire is enough for Kuvira? And will she become a mass murderer?

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    • Bersarker wrote:
      Kubernes wrote:
      Well, El Cid fought for Alfonso's brother first and eventually he was essentially pushed out by Alfonso. There are some similarities with the political maneuvering later in life, but it's not really for territorial gain. The biggest problem is that El Cid was open to collaborative planning or tactics, while Kuvira seems to largely focused on her plans with that hint of seclusion. 
      Thanks... here another questions... do you think Earth Empire is enough for Kuvira? And will she become a mass murderer?

      I'd guess so.

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    • So now Kuvira is harvesting the big tree in the Swamp. I bet Toph will find out what's going on and probably ask who they are and what are they doing.

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    • Yeah, now that she's totally on Toph's turf, while I initially would have figured Toph's part was just a cameo and over...that might not be the case now.

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    • I doubt she'll do anything. There are just way too many for her to take on, but it's an opportunity for Toph to take action later on.

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    • Kubernes wrote: I doubt she'll do anything. There are just way too many for her to take on, but it's an opportunity for Toph to take action later on.

      Are you kidding me? When has that ever stopped her before? And besides, she can always enlist some swampbenders to help her out.

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    • Do you guys think she will take over the other countries?

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    • Bersarker wrote:
      Do you guys think she will take over the other countries?

      I think Kuvira might do worse and use the energy against any possible opposition.

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    • Maybe she want's to rule the spirit realm as well?

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    • Considering the purge subplot, I'm doubtful of that.

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    • As long as she dies in the end, I'm happy.

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    • if avatar aang fought with Kuvira she would not be able  to bend any shit .

      korra is so weak compared to aang.   

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    • But just like Aang, she weren't able to finish the job when she had the godamn chance.

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    • If you're comparing Korra vs Kuvira to Aang vs Ozai, Aang finished it as far as he wanted to, and his way was harder than just killing him, which was entirely within his power to do by the end of book 3 (and probably any book if he entered the Avatar State).

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    • Do we have any idea how Korra actually wants to end it, other than she wants to defeat Kuvira? She was going to crush Kuvira while in the Avatar state, but suddenly sees the image of the old her in the avatar state. Maybe it's just a clue about how she should handle Kuvira?

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    • I'm always want Kuvira to suffer to death!

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    • Alright, she started to imprison non- earthkingdomers and is probably going to kill Toph. She's Hitler.

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    • Implord wrote:
      Alright, she started to imprison non- earthkingdomers and is probably going to kill Toph. She's Hitler.

      Likely, Toph would be really hard to capture considering she "sees everything" so they might as well kill her

      Would be interesting though if she was captured and had an conversation with Suyin

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    • Thinklogic wrote:
      Implord wrote:
      Alright, she started to imprison non- earthkingdomers and is probably going to kill Toph. She's Hitler.
      Likely, Toph would be really hard to capture considering she "sees everything" so they might as well kill her

      Would be interesting though if she was captured and had an conversation with Suyin

      And after take over the Earth Kingdom. What she will do next? Conquer the Fire Nation?

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    • Bersarker wrote:
      Thinklogic wrote:
      Implord wrote:
      Alright, she started to imprison non- earthkingdomers and is probably going to kill Toph. She's Hitler.
      Likely, Toph would be really hard to capture considering she "sees everything" so they might as well kill her

      Would be interesting though if she was captured and had an conversation with Suyin

      And after take over the Earth Kingdom. What she will do next? Conquer the Fire Nation?

      Republic City is closer and used to be Earth Kingdom territory and has a ton of spirit vines too. Besides, it's a good place to start since it belongs to the United Republic. She would be declaring war to everyone. It's not that crazy if she does manage to create nukes with those spirit vines.

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    • I still want her to be blown up by her own spirit nukes.

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    • That would be pretty good, I can imagine a scene similar to Zhao's "death" with Zuko at the end of book 1. Kuvira about to fall to her demise and Korra trying to save her, rejecting and dying on the spot. It makes sense since Korra doesn't have a personal grudge against her and even tried to talk to her. Her posture against Kuvira was completely different to every other villain. 

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    • Or... Kuvira is gonna piss Korra really off by killing someone from the main cast. Probably Toph.

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    • Urano23 wrote:
      That would be pretty good, I can imagine a scene similar to Zhao's "death" with Zuko at the end of book 1. Kuvira about to fall to her demise and Korra trying to save her, rejecting and dying on the spot. It makes sense since Korra doesn't have a personal grudge against her and even tried to talk to her. Her posture against Kuvira was completely different to every other villain.

      Neither does Kuvira has anything personal against Korra.

      Implord wrote:
      Or... Kuvira is gonna piss Korra really off by killing someone from the main cast. Probably Toph.

      Toph is not a main character in LoK.

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    • I don't think Kuvira is gonna kill anyone, specially Toph. It might happen but I don't know, she would get the award to the most hated villain ever if she killed Toph but I doubt they would go as far. 

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    • Urano23 wrote:
      Bersarker wrote:
      Thinklogic wrote:
      Implord wrote:
      Alright, she started to imprison non- earthkingdomers and is probably going to kill Toph. She's Hitler.
      Likely, Toph would be really hard to capture considering she "sees everything" so they might as well kill her

      Would be interesting though if she was captured and had an conversation with Suyin

      And after take over the Earth Kingdom. What she will do next? Conquer the Fire Nation?
      Republic City is closer and used to be Earth Kingdom territory and has a ton of spirit vines too. Besides, it's a good place to start since it belongs to the United Republic. She would be declaring war to everyone. It's not that crazy if she does manage to create nukes with those spirit vines.

      And after the Republic City, what's next? Water Tribes or Fire Nation? I mean if she conquer Republic City, it is mean she act as threat to the other three as well.

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    • Urano23 wrote:
      I don't think Kuvira is gonna kill anyone

      You know she was going to chop Korra's head off right before Opal and Jinora intervened during The Battle of Zao Fu

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    • Thinklogic wrote:
      Urano23 wrote:
      I don't think Kuvira is gonna kill anyone
      You know she was going to chop Korra's head off right before Opal and Jinora intervened during The Battle of Zao Fu

      I think she was just going to imprison her...

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    • We don't really know that, she may have just been going to knock her out. Kind of like Unalaq to Tonraq in Book 2, with a big smash to him while bound. As per Kuvira's terms, she seemed concerned with appearances of it being a fair and defined fight, with Korra's loss meaning that Korra will stay out of Kuvira's way for good. Killing her would do this, but if that was her intent, kind of pointless to say that and it may have cost her some level of respect with those watching the fight if she actually did kill her, particularly given the terms. If Kuvira was going to kill her, she may as well have just said, "this is a fight do the death" or "end" since it's Nickelodeon.

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    • I think it was implied that Kuvira was going to injure or kill Korra at the end of the fight. We have Korrra held in place by rocks with only her head exposed and Kuvira metalbending sharp-looking metal bands. It certainly wasn't looking good for the Avatar.

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    • Again, we really don't know what Kuvira's intention was there, we're only left to speculate. I doubt she was going to deliver a lethal blow, for reasons mentioned above. I would however hazard the guess that she was going to blast her and knock her unconscious, making it clear she defeated the Avatar (again, similar to what happened with Unalaq and Tanraq in book 2).

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    • Blast her with sharp metal pieces? But, yes, Kuvira's major plans are still in the dark. We can guess that she will target RC next, but I'm still wondering why she's been doing other strange stuff. Building a continent long wall? Purges? Is it just an effort to show that she's super hard for order and to expand upon the idea that Toph brings up in the swamp?

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      We don't really know that, she may have just been going to knock her out. Kind of like Unalaq to Tonraq in Book 2, with a big smash to him while bound. As per Kuvira's terms, she seemed concerned with appearances of it being a fair and defined fight, with Korra's loss meaning that Korra will stay out of Kuvira's way for good. Killing her would do this, but if that was her intent, kind of pointless to say that and it may have cost her some level of respect with those watching the fight if she actually did kill her, particularly given the terms. If Kuvira was going to kill her, she may as well have just said, "this is a fight do the death" or "end" since it's Nickelodeon.

      Considering that Korra had just tried (and failed) to kill Kuvira, I'm sure nobody in the Earth Empire Army would have any trouble with Kuvira killling Korra in retaliation.

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    • It would appear that Korra made it a matter of life and death, but Kuvira not killing her would just show Kuvira's superiority. Showing the Avatar to be a coward and oathbreaker makes Kuvira look that much better.

      Some people in her army may have still put some stock into the Avatar. Destroying that image by having Korra breaking the rules benefits Kuvira.

      Now, I'll grant you if I were in the position I'd have killed the Avatar outright without hesitating or toying with her. I can see the benefit to demonstrating how superior one is to the Avatar, but I know the Avatar won't be good to their word and could come back to haunt me. Kuvira herself was privy to Korra double crossing someone in book 3.

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    • AdaChi wrote:
      Thinklogic wrote:
      Urano23 wrote:
      I don't think Kuvira is gonna kill anyone
      You know she was going to chop Korra's head off right before Opal and Jinora intervened during The Battle of Zao Fu
      I think she was just going to imprison her...

      http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/The_Battle_of_Zaofu

      Korra hallucinates over Kuvira

      Read the paragraph left of this image





      The article states Kuvira was going to chop Korra's head off and bent sharp blades from the metal strips. Change it if you want

      But do note Korra can bend anything Kuvira can so an Earth or metal prision on the spot wouldnt work. And why would she need to sharpen metal blades if she were to do anything but slice Korra?

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    • Thinklogic wrote:
      Urano23 wrote:
      I don't think Kuvira is gonna kill anyone
      You know she was going to chop Korra's head off right before Opal and Jinora intervened during The Battle of Zao Fu

      I meant that she's not going to get to kill anyone in my opinion, not that she's not willing to kill. Unalaq was determined to kill anyone but didn't for plot reasons. 

      And yes, Kuvira was certainly going to kill her. She sharped metal blades and was aiming for her head and if that wasn't the intention, why would Opal and Jinora interfere?

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    • Once again, that is merely speculation. You do not know that Kuvira was going to kill her. Kuvira has not shown any direct killing and the dialogue does not indicate a clear intent to do so. Kuvira may have wanted to toy with Korra further, perhaps cutting her and tormenting her or holding those up as a threat while she tells her to get lost or while apprehending her for capture. Either way, we don't know.

      Opal hates her, both Opal and Jinora don't like what she's doing, and the two don't want to see Korra lose, be harmed, or captured. There's plenty reason for them to want to intervene and they do.

      I'm not saying it's impossible for Kuvira to have intended to kill Korra, but to say she definitely was going to, is just unsubstantiated.

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    • Well yeah, obviously I can't be a 100% sure that she was going to kill her. I just say that based on the scene and how it was portrayed it seems that she's going to kill her.

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    • I see, interesting choice in words then.

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    • Urano23 wrote:
      Well yeah, obviously I can't be a 100% sure that she was going to kill her. I just say that based on the scene and how it was portrayed it seems that she's going to kill her.

      Also, if you're an insane mastermind to conquer the world, some living avatar would have been far too much of a pain in the ass.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      It would appear that Korra made it a matter of life and death, but Kuvira not killing her would just show Kuvira's superiority. Showing the Avatar to be a coward and oathbreaker makes Kuvira look that much better.

      Some people in her army may have still put some stock into the Avatar. Destroying that image by having Korra breaking the rules benefits Kuvira.

      Now, I'll grant you if I were in the position I'd have killed the Avatar outright without hesitating or toying with her. I can see the benefit to demonstrating how superior one is to the Avatar, but I know the Avatar won't be good to their word and could come back to haunt me. Kuvira herself was privy to Korra double crossing someone in book 3.

      Kuvira either got the villain ball and thus spent lots of time teasing Korra before killing her or she decided to use the fight as an excuse to attack Zaofu: menace Korra with certain death, wait for the airbenders' reaction (a reaction that went against Korra and Kuvira's deal for their duel), conquer Zaofu with excellent moral justification...

      Now, of course killing the Avatar gives obvious benefits. Korra may have acquired a strange case of Aang, but her behavior in the fight proved her to still be quite the dangerous person. Kuvira probably should try to make sure that she won't be smashed by a giant boulder before anything else.

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    • Capturing the Avatar or telling her to get lost are also perfectly reasonable outcomes and could net her less animosity both domestically and abroad, as she noted, "the eyes of the world are on us." While she's unfortunately starting to shape up as a more and more stereotypical villain, she didn't do that here, whether because she wasn't going to or she didn't get the chance, either way, she didn't and so we can't attribute that to her.

      She pretty much did demonstrate that she won the duel at that point, most likely she was going to win. Winning the duel gets the Avatar's stopping Kuvira off the table as per their agreement.

      Now, If I were Kuvira, I agree, I would kill Korra because I know (as well as Kuvira) that Korra does not keep her word and she will continue to try to thwart the Great Uniter. However, Kuvira doesn't give a strong indication that (particularly given the terms of the duel) she is going to off her, and for appearance's sake, it would be overkill in that sense -she already had the duel in the bag and pretty much had all the justification she'd need to take Zaofu.

      And maybe she was going to kill her, it has definite benefits to doing so, but we really can't drop that at her door at this point.

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    • I still don't get it. She's already take Zaofu, what did she want now? The Republic City? Or more than that, other three countries?

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    • The world? More worlds? Is she going to pop up in our reality? Who can tell?

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    • Bersarker wrote:
      I still don't get it. She's already take Zaofu, what did she want now? The Republic City? Or more than that, other three countries?

      Probably Republic City, possibly the Fire Nation, certainly security for her Earth Empire, and she can only achieve these by strength, hence the spirit vines.

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    • LM3014 wrote:
      Bersarker wrote:
      I still don't get it. She's already take Zaofu, what did she want now? The Republic City? Or more than that, other three countries?
      Probably Republic City, possibly the Fire Nation, certainly security for her Earth Empire, and she can only achieve these by strength, hence the spirit vines.

      I know that she might conquer the Republic City but hope she will con conquer the other countries as well. That will make thing go more epic! Because I saw that she captured the people who are not originate from the Earth Kingdom as her prisoners.  Why did she have to do that? Why don't just let them go back to their original homes?

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    • I hope Kuvira doesn't just end up being some kind of villain who wants to take over the world again. Sure, she has a superweapon that will potentially make her level with the power of the Avatar. But her motive? Simply conquering nations for the sake of order? Reminds me of another villain who conquered nations *cough Unalaq *cough. Although it's interesting to see why she's capturing non-earthbenders

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    • Unalaq invaded the South Pole for the spirit portal. Of course, the invasion was stupid and unnecessary as prior to that, he was, more or less, in charge of both North and South Poles.

      It actually makes sense as a goal. Not that I agree with it, but I could see that as an understandable reason to conquer.

      I could be wrong, but it sounded like in one line of the dialogue that they were captured with the intention of being sent out of the country. I could see it as a way to consolodate power and facilitate order through an ethnic and culturally homogenous people.

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    • She's not a psychopath like Azula. She's against monarchy though. So Fire Nation palace may be her next target -- an option that has been discussed elsewhere. 

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    • WampaLumpa wrote:
      She's not a psychopath like Azula. She's against monarchy though. So Fire Nation palace may be her next target -- an option that has been discussed elsewhere. 

      No, because some people, like me, liked Azula for beign awesome. I haven't met a Kuvira- Fan up to now.

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    • Azula was cool, had many great qualities, and made a good antagonist...she was still arguably a psychopath/sociopath.

      I like Kuvira as a character. I disagree with some of her ideology, but I like a number of other aspects about her. Maybe "fan" would be a bit of a stretch for me to use (some might consider me one), but I don't hate her overall and am glad she's in the series.

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    • As long as they don't play on that parallel idea that the writers were pushing for some reason (mainly the designs and comments) and explain why she's doing some of the "crazy" things like the purges, then I'd be fine with the character.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Azula was cool, had many great qualities, and made a good antagonist...she was still arguably a psychopath/sociopath.

      I like Kuvira as a character. I disagree with some of her ideology, but I like a number of other aspects about her. Maybe "fan" would be a bit of a stretch for me to use (some might consider me one), but I don't hate her overall and am glad she's in the series.

      I realized why I liked Azula more: She never made her madness a secret. If you'd ask her "Are you a dangerous psychopath", she would confirm it and then probably kill you for the evulz. But Kuvira is this kind of villain who thinks her actions are somewhat justified. I don't like that.

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    • Azula probably thought she was justified in a Nietzchen Superwoman way, she was just better than everyone else, so the rules don't apply to her. Kuvira could easily justify quite a bit of what she does, just some of it is taken (what many of us would consider) too far.

      Relatively speaking, she's not doing anything that real world governments haven't done that have been at least comparable, if not more extreme. She's probably "less bad" than at least some of the history of most of the nations any of us live in. I'd say she's easily done less harm than the US has in its history. Internment camps based upon ethnicity? Check. Propaganda to elevate the nation and demonize others? US definitely has, Earth Empire is at least talking up how awesome they are. Forced migration or deportation of people that have lived there, even for generations? Check. Slaughtering civilians? US has, not Kuvira (yet, as far as we've been shown anyways). Fought a civil war and reclaimed territory through force? Check, though in the two instances we see with Earth Empire, Kuvira did it through negotiation for one and the other via capturing three would-be assassins (including the political leader of the state) and defeating a person in a duel, for zero deaths. Whether she actually fought any of the states to get them to rejoin is unclear. In the US, it was its bloodiest war. Slavery? US has, the claims of that have, so far, been unsubstantiated for Kuvira's Earth Empire. Even if she outright blows up Republic City with a superweapon, US has been there done that. That's not to mention even the events of the past few decades with various wars and dubious actions taken by the nation. If we look at this in historical context, Earth Empire really isn't all that bad compared to the governments of places many of us live.

      Just sayin'

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    • Azula is the product of her father's pedagogy. Already tagged as "firebending prodigy" by his dad in front of Zuko, she had to live up to the expectations of her equally psychopathic, power-hungry father lord. No mother to ease off her developmental stress, she ended up being a somewhat carbon copy of Ozai. Azula was a narcissist par excellence. And she thought her actions were justified because she was royalty. This is a part of Ozai's pedagogy, which he tried imparting to Zuko as well: "There is no right or wrong apart from what you decide. You are the Fire Lord. What you choose, by definition, is right."

      Kuvira is the product of something else. She ascended to power by doing things that others couldn't.

      Alas in our world, we don't have something called Avatar who could just go and kick some politician butt. Aang and Korra are our solace. 

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Azula probably thought she was justified in a Nietzchen Superwoman way, she was just better than everyone else, so the rules don't apply to her. Kuvira could easily justify quite a bit of what she does, just some of it is taken (what many of us would consider) too far.

      Relatively speaking, she's not doing anything that real world governments haven't done that have been at least comparable, if not more extreme. She's probably "less bad" than at least some of the history of most of the nations any of us live in. I'd say she's easily done less harm than the US has in its history. Internment camps based upon ethnicity? Check. Propaganda to elevate the nation and demonize others? US definitely has, Earth Empire is at least talking up how awesome they are. Forced migration or deportation of people that have lived there, even for generations? Check. Slaughtering civilians? US has, not Kuvira (yet, as far as we've been shown anyways). Fought a civil war and reclaimed territory through force? Check, though in the two instances we see with Earth Empire, Kuvira did it through negotiation for one and the other via capturing three would-be assassins (including the political leader of the state) and defeating a person in a duel, for zero deaths. Whether she actually fought any of the states to get them to rejoin is unclear. In the US, it was its bloodiest war. Slavery? US has, the claims of that have, so far, been unsubstantiated for Kuvira's Earth Empire. Even if she outright blows up Republic City with a superweapon, US has been there done that. That's not to mention even the events of the past few decades with various wars and dubious actions taken by the nation. If we look at this in historical context, Earth Empire really isn't all that bad compared to the governments of places many of us live.

      Just sayin'

      You can't compare a centuries old entity of extremely varied leadership with a three years old autocratic government...

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    • WampaLumpa wrote:
      Azula is the product of her father's pedagogy. Already tagged as "firebending prodigy" by his dad in front of Zuko, she had to live up to the expectations of her equally psychopathic, power-hungry father lord. No mother to ease off her developmental stress, she ended up being a somewhat carbon copy of Ozai. Azula was a narcissist par excellence. And she thought her actions were justified because she was royalty. This is a part of Ozai's pedagogy, which he tried imparting to Zuko as well: "There is no right or wrong apart from what you decide. You are the Fire Lord. What you choose, by definition, is right."

      Kuvira is the product of something else. She ascended to power by doing things that others couldn't.

      Alas in our world, we don't have something called Avatar who could just go and kick some politician butt. Aang and Korra are our solace. 

      That's Azula's official line, and your reasoning could very well be true. But I personally think Azula was much more meritocratic than she led us to believe. She seems to think that might makes right, and that whoever wins a fight/discussion is correct and should act on it very aggressively. That's very common amongst child prodigies: if your entire worth during your life had been given thanks to intelligence, cunning and bending ability, then you probably wouldn't respect anything else but that.

      Thus she discounts Iroh (lost the siege of Ba Sing Se, became a pacifist), Lu Ten (died), Zuko (inferior to her despite his age and status), Azulon (got old, died), Long Feng (lost to her).

      What made Azula an excellent villain, in my opinion, was her use of dramatics, her casual cruelty (always perfectly delivered) and her unbelievable confidence in the two characteristics she valued: her fast tactical cunning and her excellent bending. She always seemed to think herself as the most intelligent person in the room, and that's a solid base for a villain character (look at Breaking Bad).

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    • Kuvira is the worst villain I ever seen. In El Cid: The Legend, Ben Yusuf killing many innocent people. Yes, he is bad. But at least, he never let them suffer.

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    • You can't compare a centuries old entity of extremely varied leadership with a three years old autocratic government...

      Sure, many nations did it over longer periods of time, but is that really an excuse? But alright, I've made the comparison before with Ghengis Khan and other conquerors, she's easily guilty of less than a number of them.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      You can't compare a centuries old entity of extremely varied leadership with a three years old autocratic government...Sure, many nations did it over longer periods of time, but is that really an excuse? But alright, I've made the comparison before with Ghengis Khan and other conquerors, she's easily guilty of less than a number of them.

      It's not just a good excuse, it's a valid argument. You just can't compare Kuvira with the Roman Empire, Australia or the USA. You could compare Kuvira with Obama, Ghandi or Genghis Khan, and even then with the caveat that she has been politically relevant for only three years or so: she has plenty of time to add many more atrocities to her list.

      Being guilty of less warcrimes and genocidal acts than Genghis Khan is not exactly very impressive. Even Tamerlane, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin could take a shot at it.

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    • I do not understand Kuvira one bit. Why is she such a witch? I do not understand Baatar Jr either. What made him such a complete jerk? What is wrong with these two?

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    • It really isn't a valid argument. Comparing her actions as head of state to what other nations have done is within reason, particularly when others are being compared to her in that same capacity, that's what this thread started as.

      She's not even clearly proven to have committed any war crimes yet and many of the things mentioned above were done within just a few years of each other anyways in our world. The very worst thing she's done is imprisoning and/or deporting non ethnic Earth Nation population, sooooo fine, she's a less bad FDR or Lincoln. If she's deporting them, then that's basically what Aang was trying to do after the 100 year war until Zuko fought him and talked him out of it.

      And that whole list of people in your most recent post easily surpass her laundry list. The simple fact is, she really hasn't done all of these terrible things, yet she's compared to all of these people that have and that's okay, but when I point out how little she's really done negative compared to others, that's apples and oranges!

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    • Mayabelle wrote:
      I do not understand Kuvira one bit. Why is she such a witch? I do not understand Baatar Jr either. What made him such a complete jerk? What is wrong with these two?

      I don't know, she's sick of incompetent governance? She wants to push for an industrial revolution? She wants order?

      Bad parenting?

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    • Mayabelle wrote:
      I do not understand Kuvira one bit. Why is she such a witch? I do not understand Baatar Jr either. What made him such a complete jerk? What is wrong with these two?

      It appears Kuvira took this oppurtunity for power since Suyin refused to show aggression

      She may have altered Baatar Jr's way of thinking. First he believes hes having a good time with his dad building stuff. Then makes him believe hes a slave to his dad. Then... makes him a slave to her while claiming hes achieving so much. Baatar Jr isnt getting any fame from this at all

      Kuvira can be defined as a hypocrite big time


      Lets see the chart of hypocrites...

      Kuvira crushes

      Doesnt care if she promised to back down. Betrayed united nation

      Bolin starts to doubt

      "OMGEEZ IS MC RAW KALE MAKING YOU BETRAY ME?!?!"





      Smug Kuvira

      "This is about equality"

      Baraz and Ahnah

      "Except for Water and Fire people. What that's only 50% of the Avatar world population"





      Hama's village

      "But somehow all of them get poorer. I guess distributing fairly is only a loss"

      Kuvira

      "I distribute wealth evenly in the nation"




      Content Baatar Jr. and angry Kuvira

      "I set Baatar Jr free"

      Baatar Jr. and Varrick

      "Now Baatar must dedicate his life to build me the most powerful weapon ever"





      Korra, Opal, and Jinora negotiate

      "If you lose you must stay out of my way"

      Opal and Jinora intervene

      "Jk, Im gonna chop off your head... OH GAWD MORE DEALS ARE BEING BROKEN"





      Kuvira enlists bandits

      "Even though Im still doing it"

      Opal confronting Baatar Jr.

      "Isnt it time to forgive and forget what Ive done?"





      Army at Zaofu's gates

      "Give me the entire city in 24H or else..."

      Suyin opposes Kuvira

      "We arent here to threaten you"

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    • It is true about her not stepping down, but it is consistent with her MO of being against the united government. Removing the foriegn ethnic groups is also working to undo policy from the united government which the former administration seemed to reluctantly allow.

      Your picture of how they keep getting poorer, is from the Fire Nation...~75 years ago. Whether or not they are actually pooerer, we've not rightly seen. But considering this is in the wake of a terribly mismanaged government that was essentially destroyed three years ago, and she's been reuniting it while we what we have seen are improvements to infrastructure particularly in transportation and security, what the series is showing us is seemingly indicating the reverse of your claim.

      Bataar Jr. is pretty clearly on board with her cause of his own volition.

      Oh, the duel. Again, you keep with the "Kuvira was going to chop off Korra's head," you do not know that. Besides, even if we hypothetically agreed that she was trying to kill her, the conversation prior to the duel never ever stipulated that neither party could not kill the other. Also, your picture is while Opal and Jinora are intervening on Korra's behalf, breaching the actual stipulation that it was to be one on one. So, it was Korra's side that broke the agreement here.

      What Kuvira was talking about when she said "isn't it time to forgive and forget?" was about what personally happened between her, the family, and itself. Also, your picture was her subduing attackers from an ambush, totally unrelated to the previous picture or that quote.

      Note that threatening wasn't the intent, but she was going to take it. There are nuances to it. Also, she herself went to negotiate the reintegration of Zaofu she didn't want to have to fight, but Suyin wasn't going to have it any other way, so, force is what it was going to come down to and everyone knew it, but, Kuvira did give her a choice. She also agreed to the truce after Suyin flatly declined, she then still gave a peaceful option for the people of Zaofu after an assassination attempt against her resulted in the capture of Suyin. Bear in mind, Suyin was rebelling the entire time the restructuring was going on as she kept Zaofu autonomous rather than joining the nation.

      Pictures are fun, but try to keep them in context. Whether Kuvira's right or wrong is debatable, but you're spinning the facts.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:It really isn't a valid argument. Comparing her actions as head of state to what other nations have done is within reason, particularly when others are being compared to her in that same capacity, that's what this thread started as.

      Comparing her actions as head of state to the actions of the leadership of a nation is obviously a apples and oranges comparison. Even if you restrict yourself to head of state against head of state (and that's how people have been comparing her), she has been politically relevant for only three years! You can't know what she will do from now on, but she can't get better and will probably only get worse.


      Weltall8000 wrote: She's not even clearly proven to have committed any war crimes yet and many of the things mentioned above were done within just a few years of each other anyways in our world. The very worst thing she's done is imprisoning and/or deporting non ethnic Earth Nation population, sooooo fine, she's a less bad FDR or Lincoln.

      We haven't seen Kuvira's camps. What we know, from the people whom escaped, is that they are at least at the same level of atrocity as the WW2 American camps, except with a larger scope... meaning as far as I'm concerned, she's already much more of a tyrant than FDR and only getting worse.


      Weltall8000 wrote: If she's deporting them, then that's basically what Aang was trying to do after the 100 year war until Zuko fought him and talked him out of it.

      Aang wisely realized what he was doing was tremendously wrong before it became inevitable, and for good reason: it's basically genocide.


      Weltall8000 wrote: And that whole list of people in your most recent post easily surpass her laundry list. The simple fact is, she really hasn't done all of these terrible things, yet she's compared to all of these people that have and that's okay, but when I point out how little she's really done negative compared to others, that's apples and oranges!

      Of course they do. They also had a few decades to do their work and centuries to be investigated pretty extensively by history.

      Give Kuvira a few months and a thorough checking, I'm sure she will prove to be as bad as any Nickelodeon tyrant could be.

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    • Thinklogic wrote:
      Mayabelle wrote:
      I do not understand Kuvira one bit. Why is she such a witch? I do not understand Baatar Jr either. What made him such a complete jerk? What is wrong with these two?
      It appears Kuvira took this oppurtunity for power since Suyin refused to show aggression She may have altered Baatar Jr's way of thinking. First he believes hes having a good time with his dad building stuff. Then makes him believe hes a slave to his dad. Then... makes him a slave to her while claiming hes achieving so much. Baatar Jr isnt getting any fame from this at all

      Or maybe he just likes having an awesome girlfriend and defeating everything that comes in his way while choo-chooing through the Earth Kingdom in an awesome train better than having a dysfunctional family commanded by a pretty selfish, immature child prodigy.

      As for the rest of your post, yes, Kuvira lies sometimes. Shocking! Suyin lied too, all the time. In fact, every politician has to lie sometimes.

      As for the duel, Korra tried to kill her before, and Kuvira was perfectly in her right to kill her: you don't just leave the crazy unstable WMD that just tried to kill you alone.

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    • However, we don't have to debate about Kuviras evil nature anymore. Just look it up:

      1. Wanted to unite the earth kingdom until the king would take her place: Good thing?

      2. But hey, f**k this, she won't give up her job and stays the dictator of her own empire: Evil thing, but considering who would have taken the power instead... Meh.

      3. Ravages the land, sends her enemys - including everyone who's fire or waterbender-  into "education camps" (*Cough* Ausschwitz *Cough) : EVIL!

      4. Starts building weapons of mass destruction, taking advantage of the spirit vines, without caring about the nature nor the balance she's destroying: EVIL!

      5. Toke Zaofu by force: EVIIIIL!

      6. Her hair got messed up while fighting Korra. Only a absolute psychopath would be shown with hair like that. EVIIIIL!

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    • Comparing her actions as head of state to the actions of the leadership of a nation is obviously a apples and oranges comparison. Even if you restrict yourself to head of state against head of state (and that's how people have been comparing her), she has been politically relevant for only three years! You can't know what she will do from now on, but she can't get better and will probably only get worse.

      So, what you're saying is comparing leadership of two nations is apples to oranges.

      You also somehow can claim that she is only capable of getting worse and not better over time.

      We haven't seen Kuvira's camps. What we know, from the people whom escaped, is that they are at least at the same level of atrocity as the WW2 American camps, except with a larger scope... meaning as far as I'm concerned, she's already much more of a tyrant than FDR and only getting worse.

      We do not know that they are at least as bad as the US internment camps during WWII. As for scope, do you know if Kuvira has more than 100,000 in her camps? FDR also had a WMD developed under him which was used shortly after his death in office to level two cities, and he was responsible for pushing for involvement in one of the bloodiest wars in human history, despite public opinion, utilizing at best propaganda, at worst outright fabrication and manipulation of the events leading up to it.

      Aang wisely realized what he was doing was tremendously wrong before it became inevitable, and for good reason: it's basically genocide.

      Noting that Aang had to throw down with Zuko before he changed his mind, and we have no genocide with Kuvira. When she starts killing off entire camps, then you can talk.

      Of course they do. They also had a few decades to do their work and centuries to be investigated pretty extensively by history.


      Give Kuvira a few months and a thorough checking, I'm sure she will prove to be as bad as any Nickelodeon tyrant could be.

      It generally didn't really take them decades to commit atrocities once in power. Kuvira hasn't committed any thus far, yet, you're comparing her to these. Nickelodeon or not, she is what she is and you're making a poor case for her being practically Hitler.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      So, what you're saying is comparing leadership of two nations is apples to oranges.

      No, I have never said that! I'm saying (from the beginning) that comparing the actions taken by one leader, during only three years, with the actions taken by several dozen leaders along almost two centuries is apples to oranges.

      Weltall8000 wrote: You also somehow can claim that she is only capable of getting worse and not better over time.

      In your comparison terms ("she has done something, the US has done about the same thing") yes, she can only get worse, as more information becomes available and she has more time to do wrong.

      Weltall8000 wrote: We do not know that they are at least as bad as the US internment camps during WWII.

      I think that's quite clear from the escapees.

      Weltall8000 wrote: As for scope, do you know if Kuvira has more than 100,000 in her camps?

      Who knows? We don't even know the population of the Earth Empire, so who cares? FDR's ethnical imprisonment camps contained only people from "the enemy races" (whatever they decided that should be), Kuvira's camps are clearly more geared towards ethnical purity itself, a much larger scope by any means.

      Weltall8000 wrote: FDR also had a WMD developed under him which was used shortly after his death in office to level two cities, and he was responsible for pushing for involvement in one of the bloodiest wars in human history, despite public opinion, utilizing at best propaganda, at worst outright fabrication and manipulation of the events leading up to it.

      Several differences:

      1- The Avatar world hasn't large-scale bombardments and executions. Their only WMD is the Avatar State. On the other hand, the nuclear bomb, in 1945, was just a new, more efficient, faster way to thoroughly bomb a city and kill its civilians. If the only way to win the war was through undiscriminated bombing (and that's what his advisors kept saying, their plans for invasion of Japan were completely impractical), then the nuclear bomb was the correct way to do it.

      2- FDR knew with certainty that Germany was trying to create a nuclear weapon too. He would have been an idiot not to respond.

      3- FDR did the entirely right thing by entering WW2. And if he had to manipulate public opinion and Axis diplomacy to make it happen, so what? Entirely fair price for the safety of the nation.

      Weltall8000 wrote: Noting that Aang had to throw down with Zuko before he changed his mind, and we have no genocide with Kuvira. When she starts killing off entire camps, then you can talk.

      Yes, he had. But he changed idea, so that's okay. People make mistakes. And my comment was a response to your comment, that basically tried to make forced deportation into a picnic. It is not.

      Weltall8000 wrote: It generally didn't really take them decades to commit atrocities once in power. Kuvira hasn't committed any thus far, yet, you're comparing her to these. Nickelodeon or not, she is what she is and you're making a poor case for her being practically Hitler.

      It did take more than three years of political career, didn't it? Kuvira started hers less than three years ago. She has already started her WMD, aggressively conquered an entire nation and imprisoned impure Earth Kingdom citizens.

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    • No, I have never said that! I'm saying (from the beginning) that comparing the actions taken by one leader, during only three years, with the actions taken by several dozen leaders along almost two centuries is apples to oranges.

      And your argument is asinine as well as ignoring that I have made comparissons with individual leaders' administrations as well.

      In your comparison terms ("she has done something, the US has done about the same thing") yes, she can only get worse, as more information becomes available and she has more time to do wrong.

      Which is rooted in the base assumption that she will do bad things, particularly above and beyond others mentioned.

      I think that's quite clear from the escapees.

      Baseless speculation as they never really commented on the conditions, only that they were imprissioned and that there was some plan to deport them.

      Who knows? We don't even know the population of the Earth Empire, so who cares? FDR's ethnical imprisonment camps contained only people from "the enemy races" (whatever they decided that should be), Kuvira's camps are clearly more geared towards ethnical purity itself, a much larger scope by any means.

      Exactly, you don't know, so, you can't really comment on the scope, because you have no clue what it is. And you want to talk about the distinction between apples and oranges, hah!

      Several differences:


      1- The Avatar world hasn't large-scale bombardments and executions. Their only WMD is the Avatar State. On the other hand, the nuclear bomb, in 1945, was just a new, more efficient, faster way to thoroughly bomb a city and kill its civilians. If the only way to win the war was through undiscriminated bombing (and that's what his advisors kept saying, their plans for invasion of Japan were completely impractical), then the nuclear bomb was the correct way to do it.

      The US developed the first WMD. One of the traits of nuclear weapons is that when utilized, it has a very high likelihood of harming civilians.

      What you're doing is rationalizing away thousands upon thousands of civilian deaths. Carpet bombing cities was already pretty difficult to defend. Funny thing is, there's a good amount of evidence suggesting that what really prompted the Japanese surrender was the impending Soviet invasion and not the bomb.

      2- FDR knew with certainty that Germany was trying to create a nuclear weapon too. He would have been an idiot not to respond.

      More rationalization, Germany was defeated, meanwhile Japan was isolated and surrounded by the time the bomb was dropped. Developing it to counter Germany's development of nuclear weapons would be one thing, dropping it on Japan was another.

      3- FDR did the entirely right thing by entering WW2. And if he had to manipulate public opinion and Axis diplomacy to make it happen, so what? Entirely fair price for the safety of the nation.

      Wait a sec...are you advocating for "making tough choices" for the public by a leader that believes they know better than their constituents, utilizing propaganda, conspiracy, and outright manipulation "for the safety of the nation"? Why are you arguing against Kuvira again?

      Yes, he had. But he changed idea, so that's okay. People make mistakes. And my comment was a response to your comment, that basically tried to make forced deportation into a picnic. It is not.

      So, Aang does something debatably wrong "for the right reasons" and it's okay. Kuvira does something debatably wrong "for the right reasons" and she's Hitler. I love double standards!

      I wasn't saying it would be a picnic, but you've yet to actually establish they're akin to Nazi concentration camps.

      It did take more than three years of political career, didn't it? Kuvira started hers less than three years ago. She has already started her WMD, aggressively conquered an entire nation and imprisoned impure Earth Kingdom citizens.

      Lincoln was four (and I don't think I even brought up his flagrant disregard for civil liberties or the US Constitution in general) and FDR was twelve and not all of them during war with only the last three being during the US involvement in WWII (which took him only two years to change the US from basically isolationist to blind support of the war). She's not all that far off of others timewise and you've got next to nothing to show for her deathtoll or warcrimes where the others have her beat in spades. The absolute worst you have against her is imprisoning with talk of deporting some undisclosed number of people.

      Funny you should mention "aggressively conquering an entire nation" seeing as she was tasked to do that by what you consider "the good guys." You're down with a government that strong armed her nation in the previous administration and was going to install a puppet government here. On top of all the other double standards you've shown here, how do you honestly reconcile your criticisms of Kuvira?

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    • I really can't believe people who think Kuvira is right in her actions. Slave camps? Purging ethnic groups? Reeducation camps that are basically prisons? She's just like Superman from injustice: Gods among us. She claims she's protecting others, but people are afraid of her.

      These lines of quotes definitely fit Kuvira: "Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right."

      "Politicians don't know how to solve problems. But I do."

      Furthermore, her talk about making "sacrifices", doing what's "necessary"? Like I said before, twisted ****s throughout history used the same argument, and you know how terrible these people were.

      Anything regarding slave labor camps, purging ethnic groups, reeducation camps that are really prisons? Those are all dead giveaways. If that's coming from a refugee, you'd better believe it.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      And your argument is asinine as well as ignoring that I have made comparissons with individual leaders' administrations as well.

      As I said before, these leaders lived for decades, died and were fully investigated by History. You can't compare Kuvira with them without any consideration for that.

      Weltall8000 wrote:
      Which is rooted in the base assumption that she will do bad things, particularly above and beyond others mentioned.

      No, it isn't. If she dies now, her career doesn't get better in terms of doing atrocities. It can only get worse as we obtain more information about the camps. That was your term of comparison, wasn't it? How many types of atrocities someone did.

      Weltall8000 wrote: Exactly, you don't know, so, you can't really comment on the scope, because you have no clue what it is. And you want to talk about the distinction between apples and oranges, hah!

      We know the scope is "people without pure EK ancestry". That was clear from the narrative.

      Weltall8000 wrote: The US developed the first WMD. One of the traits of nuclear weapons is that when utilized, it has a very high likelihood of harming civilians.

      Yes, of course. So do several weapons used in WW2. Not so much in the Avatar World.

      Weltall8000 wrote: What you're doing is rationalizing away thousands upon thousands of civilian deaths. Carpet bombing cities was already pretty difficult to defend.

      No, I'm not. War is not a picnic, and total war will result in the killing of civilians. That's terrible, but it's not something that FDR or Truman could stop: they didn't start WW2, you know.

      Weltall8000 wrote: Funny thing is, there's a good amount of evidence suggesting that what really prompted the Japanese surrender was the impending Soviet invasion and not the bomb.

      There is very good evidence the Soviet invasion of Manchuria was the main cause of the Japanese surrender, and it makes much more sense than the bomb being the main cause... But that wasn't the perception of the Allied Command at the time. Hindsight is 20/20.

      Weltall8000 wrote: More rationalization, Germany was defeated, meanwhile Japan was isolated and surrounded by the time the bomb was dropped. Developing it to counter Germany's development of nuclear weapons would be one thing, dropping it on Japan was another.

      You do realize FDR was dead at that point? In any case, Japan was isolated but had formidable defenses. Forcing surrender would require either a costly invasion that nobody could have supported in their right minds or some terrible shock to the leadership. The bomb was a way to provide that shock. Soviet invasion of Manchuria was another. Nobody knew what would do the job, so they couldn't just sit on their hands and wait for the entire Japanese Islands to starve.

      Weltall8000 wrote: Wait a sec...are you advocating for "making tough choices" for the public by a leader that believes they know better than their constituents, utilizing propaganda, conspiracy, and outright manipulation "for the safety of the nation"? Why are you arguing against Kuvira again?

      I don't believe in Kuvira's methods, particularly her blind choice of people to imprison. It easily ruins her entire character.

      I also don't believe in her goals: uniting the Earth Kingdom, industrializing it and taking out the bandits is one thing, but her stand against Zaofu was simply unjustified (in the end, she found plenty of reasons for her conquest, but the beginning of it was clear warmongering). I also abhor the idea of building a WMD with a highly suspect power source that you know nothing about. Apart from that, Kuvira is fine, and if it wasn't for the "entrainment camps" and all that they represent for the future, I would be all for her.

      Weltall8000 wrote: So, Aang does something debatably wrong "for the right reasons" and it's okay. Kuvira does something debatably wrong "for the right reasons" and she's Hitler. I love double standards!

      He didn't do it, and that's the entire point! Also, never said that Kuvira was Hitler. Don't know where that came from.

      Weltall8000 wrote: I wasn't saying it would be a picnic, but you've yet to actually establish they're akin to Nazi concentration camps.

      They probably aren't extermination camps, but they're bad enough to qualify as a large atrocity.

      Weltall8000 wrote: Lincoln was four (and I don't think I even brought up his flagrant disregard for civil liberties or the US Constitution in general)

      Did he start a ethnic purge? A genocide? A war? Even the war crimes of his administration are quite tame.

      Weltall8000 wrote: and FDR was twelve and not all of them during war with only the last three being during the US involvement in WWII (which took him only two years to change the US from basically isolationist to blind support of the war). She's not all that far off of others timewise

      Almost four times in FDR's case (no, you don't get to pick and choose his years fighting against the crazy genocidal maniacs), and then Lincoln, whose characterization I will never agree with.

      Weltall8000 wrote: and you've got next to nothing to show for her deathtoll or warcrimes where the others have her beat in spades. The absolute worst you have against her is imprisoning with talk of deporting some undisclosed number of people.

      It's a show. Some things just won't be seen. But what we do have is enough to put her over FDR and Lincoln in the atrocity department. Again, ethnic imprisonment camps.

      Weltall8000 wrote: Funny you should mention "aggressively conquering an entire nation" seeing as she was tasked to do that by what you consider "the good guys."

      I don't, so your argument fails from the start. Tenzin is at best blind, Raiko is a slimy idiot and Suyin is criminally negligent.

      Weltall8000 wrote: You're down with a government that strong armed her nation in the previous administration and was going to install a puppet government here. On top of all the other double standards you've shown here, how do you honestly reconcile your criticisms of Kuvira?

      I'm not down with any of the governments from LoK, so no double standards in this matter.

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    • Torresp wrote:
      I really can't believe people who think Kuvira is right in her actions. Slave camps? Purging ethnic groups? Reeducation camps that are basically prisons? She's just like Superman from injustice: Gods among us. She claims she's protecting others, but people are afraid of her.

      These lines of quotes definitely fit Kuvira: "Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right."

      "Politicians don't know how to solve problems. But I do."

      Furthermore, her talk about making "sacrifices", doing what's "necessary"? Like I said before, twisted ****s throughout history used the same argument, and you know how terrible these people were.

      Anything regarding slave labor camps, purging ethnic groups, reeducation camps that are really prisons? Those are all dead giveaways. If that's coming from a refugee, you'd better believe it.

      Agree here

      Hou-ting was not a good leader. People could live happily (not best conditions). Rebels existed who reclaimed the "tax"

      But then you see Kuvira. People live in poor conditions, then when you're threatened to pledge loyalty, then you're a slave. Rebels... no wait all the rebels are dead except Varrick and Bolin. Plus all non-EK citizens are auto imprisioned. How is this all nessesairy? Hou-ting did a better job at leading while spending peoples money on decorations

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    • Thinklogic wrote:
      Torresp wrote:
      I really can't believe people who think Kuvira is right in her actions. Slave camps? Purging ethnic groups? Reeducation camps that are basically prisons? She's just like Superman from injustice: Gods among us. She claims she's protecting others, but people are afraid of her.

      These lines of quotes definitely fit Kuvira: "Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right."

      "Politicians don't know how to solve problems. But I do."

      Furthermore, her talk about making "sacrifices", doing what's "necessary"? Like I said before, twisted ****s throughout history used the same argument, and you know how terrible these people were.

      Anything regarding slave labor camps, purging ethnic groups, reeducation camps that are really prisons? Those are all dead giveaways. If that's coming from a refugee, you'd better believe it.

      Agree here

      Hou-ting was not a good leader. People could live happily (not best conditions). Rebels existed who reclaimed the "tax"

      But then you see Kuvira. People live in poor conditions, then when you're threatened to pledge loyalty, then you're a slave. Rebels... no wait all the rebels are dead except Varrick and Bolin. Plus all non-EK citizens are auto imprisioned. How is this all nessesairy? Hou-ting did a better job at leading while spending peoples money on decorations

      100% true.

      What did Kuvira did good to the Earth Kingdom/Empire? Unifying? So what? It's not like citizens are much better than they were before, infact, according to Opal they might be worse. And they have to remain loyal to Kuvira. And those are the ones who are lucky enough to be pure EK citizens, the ones who are not had better run away to another country before they get captured.

      She did nothing to help anyone, she's basically taking advantage of the situation.

      The only good point she has is that Monarchy in the earth kingdom is bad. It's been bad since Kyoshi's time(probably prior to that too) and it's going to keep being bad. They need another system of government.

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    • Urano23 wrote:
      Thinklogic wrote:
      Torresp wrote:
      I really can't believe people who think Kuvira is right in her actions. Slave camps? Purging ethnic groups? Reeducation camps that are basically prisons? She's just like Superman from injustice: Gods among us. She claims she's protecting others, but people are afraid of her.

      These lines of quotes definitely fit Kuvira: "Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right."

      "Politicians don't know how to solve problems. But I do."

      Furthermore, her talk about making "sacrifices", doing what's "necessary"? Like I said before, twisted ****s throughout history used the same argument, and you know how terrible these people were.

      Anything regarding slave labor camps, purging ethnic groups, reeducation camps that are really prisons? Those are all dead giveaways. If that's coming from a refugee, you'd better believe it.

      Agree here

      Hou-ting was not a good leader. People could live happily (not best conditions). Rebels existed who reclaimed the "tax"

      But then you see Kuvira. People live in poor conditions, then when you're threatened to pledge loyalty, then you're a slave. Rebels... no wait all the rebels are dead except Varrick and Bolin. Plus all non-EK citizens are auto imprisioned. How is this all nessesairy? Hou-ting did a better job at leading while spending peoples money on decorations

      100% true.

      What did Kuvira did good to the Earth Kingdom/Empire? Unifying? So what? It's not like citizens are much better than they were before, infact, according to Opal they might be worse. And they have to remain loyal to Kuvira. And those are the ones who are lucky enough to be pure EK citizens, the ones who are not had better run away to another country before they get captured.

      She did nothing to help anyone, she's basically taking advantage of the situation.

      The only good point she has is that Monarchy in the earth kingdom is bad. It's been bad since Kyoshi's time(probably prior to that too) and it's going to keep being bad. They need another system of government.

      Let the people decide their ruler, then (*cough*democracy!*cough*) It's the only way out of this mess!

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    • Or, you know, you could just split the kingdom up into smaller countries? The Earth Kingdom is basically constantly suffocating on his own size and still they hail some Uniters?

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    • That would mean more plot after they defeat Kuvira and the world is once again in perfect balance.

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    • Implord wrote:
      Or, you know, you could just split the kingdom up into smaller countries? The Earth Kingdom is basically constantly suffocating on his own size and still they hail some Uniters?

      As in make the petty kingdoms such as Zaofu and Omashu?

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    • Decentralization is a very important concept in political theory. Countries that have decentralized, federal governments tend to experience fewer internal problems (though there are a few exceptions). Little kingdoms or autonomies such as Zaofu and Omashu are representations of the Ancient Greek city-state model, which promotes more efficient governance in the long run. 

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