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  • Since Azula challenged Zuko to an Agni Kai, It should have just been Azula vs Zuko, but Azula aimed her Lightning at Katara, And Zuko Blocked it, but couldn't fight anymore. Katara had to do the rest of the fight, but as Katara wasn't supposed to Fight (Only Zuko and Azula were), isn't that cheating? And Since Zuko was down, did Azula win? And in order to win a Agni Kai, you need to burn the opponent, After Katara healed Zuko, he never gave her a burn... And Zuko had a Scar from Azula's Lightning, Technically a burn. Although Azula Cheated by attacking Katara, I think Azula had won.

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    • I would have to say that Zuko ultimately won the Agni Kai since Azula basically opted to break the duel to attack Katara.  As far as I know, an Agni Kai is specifically an honor match between two fighters, and like any other such competition, when you break the basic rules of the contest you effectively forfeit.  So when Azula decided "screw it" and attacked Katara, that was the end of the Agni Kai and Zuko effectively won by default.  Of course, by that point Azula was beyond caring or reason, and likely just thought to eliminate Zuko and Katara then and there, and the whole issue would be a moot point anyways.

      So, ultimately, Zuko won that Agni Kai due to Azula basically forfeiting the match, though he likely didn't feel terribly satisfied with his victory.

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    • Azula wasn't going to beat zuko he was far to composed while she was slipping. Azulas form was sloppy being fueld by rage while zukos was fueld by the original source in light and energy. Azulas trump card was lightning but zuko had redirection so it wouldn't effect him unless like said before she cheated and attacked katara which disqualifies azula and gives zuko the win. I was never quite sure how zuko managed to survive being struck by lightning even if katara healed him he was still lying on the battle field for a good 10 minutes prior

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    • Oh my god not this again. Zuko won that fight, Zuko won because Azula cheated by shooting her lightning at Katara. Azula knew that she was going to lose so she desperately shoot lightning at Katara, Zuko was definitely winning that fight hands down. 

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    • AvatarJinzo wrote:
      Oh my god not this again. Zuko won that fight, Zuko won because Azula cheated by shooting her lightning at Katara. Azula knew that she was going to lose so she desperately shoot lightning at Katara, Zuko was definitely winning that fight hands down. 

      I couldn't agree more, well-said!!

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    • Should it even matter whether he won or lost according to some arbitrary rules? Azula was nuts and a psychopath, so she was unfit to rule on two accounts. Zuko, on the other hand, is sane and compassionate, so the throne should go to him.

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    • I think Zuko would have legitamently won if Katara wasnt there

      He persuaded Azula to use lightening and she did, aiming it at Zuko but changed targets to Katara when she saw her.

      If she fired the lightening at Zuko, he wouldnt have to move infront of anyone to protect them. It would go straight to him, allowing him to redirect it at Azula and defeat her in one hit

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    • Chi13i wrote:
      I would have to say that Zuko ultimately won the Agni Kai since Azula basically opted to break the duel to attack Katara.  As far as I know, an Agni Kai is specifically an honor match between two fighters, and like any other such competition, when you break the basic rules of the contest you effectively forfeit.  So when Azula decided "screw it" and attacked Katara, that was the end of the Agni Kai and Zuko effectively won by default.  Of course, by that point Azula was beyond caring or reason, and likely just thought to eliminate Zuko and Katara then and there, and the whole issue would be a moot point anyways.

      So, ultimately, Zuko won that Agni Kai due to Azula basically forfeiting the match, though he likely didn't feel terribly satisfied with his victory.

      Makes sense.

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    • Zuko would have ultimately redirected Azula's lightning and shot it back at her, killing her if not incapacitating her first . . . . . then killing her.

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    • WHO CARES ABOUT A STUPID ASS AGNE KAI???? SHE WAS CRAZY AND NEEDED TO BE TAKEN DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      ALL I SAW WAS SOME FANCY ASS LIGHTNING STUFF AND SOME CRAZY ASS WATER STUFF THEN HE WAS DOWN BT SHE LOST AND HE HAD TO BE HEELED!!!!

      FOR CRYING OUT LOUD PEOPLE USE YOUR EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    • Foodblender wrote:
      WHO CARES ABOUT A STUPID ASS AGNE KAI???? SHE WAS CRAZY AND NEEDED TO BE TAKEN DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      ALL I SAW WAS SOME FANCY ASS LIGHTNING STUFF AND SOME CRAZY ASS WATER STUFF THEN HE WAS DOWN BT SHE LOST AND HE HAD TO BE HEELED!!!!

      FOR CRYING OUT LOUD PEOPLE USE YOUR EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


      Um...maybe we could discuss this a bit more civilly, please? The ship wars are bad enough.

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    • SaeryenKatten wrote:

      Foodblender wrote:
      WHO CARES ABOUT A STUPID ASS AGNE KAI???? SHE WAS CRAZY AND NEEDED TO BE TAKEN DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      ALL I SAW WAS SOME FANCY ASS LIGHTNING STUFF AND SOME CRAZY ASS WATER STUFF THEN HE WAS DOWN BT SHE LOST AND HE HAD TO BE HEELED!!!!

      FOR CRYING OUT LOUD PEOPLE USE YOUR EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


      Um...maybe we could discuss this a bit more civilly, please? The ship wars are bad enough.

      I wouldn't consider freaking out about people having second thoughts about whether the morally superior candidate really won the duel as opposed to talking about how it's irrelevant as Zuko is a far more preferable choice for leading the nation regardless necessarily a bad thing. Though at least people haven't explicitly stated that they think Azula should've been acknowledged as Fire Lord instead of Zuko.

      Sorry about that complicated first sentence. :/

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    • Who would win the Agni Kai if Azula was 60 and so was Zuko. And do we ever forget about Lo and Li.

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    • Supermensch wrote:

      SaeryenKatten wrote:

      Foodblender wrote:
      WHO CARES ABOUT A STUPID ASS AGNE KAI???? SHE WAS CRAZY AND NEEDED TO BE TAKEN DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      ALL I SAW WAS SOME FANCY ASS LIGHTNING STUFF AND SOME CRAZY ASS WATER STUFF THEN HE WAS DOWN BT SHE LOST AND HE HAD TO BE HEELED!!!!

      FOR CRYING OUT LOUD PEOPLE USE YOUR EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


      Um...maybe we could discuss this a bit more civilly, please? The ship wars are bad enough.

      I wouldn't consider freaking out about people having second thoughts about whether the morally superior candidate really won the duel as opposed to talking about how it's irrelevant as Zuko is a far more preferable choice for leading the nation regardless necessarily a bad thing. Though at least people haven't explicitly stated that they think Azula should've been acknowledged as Fire Lord instead of Zuko.

      Sorry about that complicated first sentence. :/

      NO ONE LIKES A SMART ASS!!!!!

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    • Foodblender wrote:

      Supermensch wrote:

      SaeryenKatten wrote:

      Foodblender wrote:
      WHO CARES ABOUT A STUPID ASS AGNE KAI???? SHE WAS CRAZY AND NEEDED TO BE TAKEN DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      ALL I SAW WAS SOME FANCY ASS LIGHTNING STUFF AND SOME CRAZY ASS WATER STUFF THEN HE WAS DOWN BT SHE LOST AND HE HAD TO BE HEELED!!!!

      FOR CRYING OUT LOUD PEOPLE USE YOUR EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


      Um...maybe we could discuss this a bit more civilly, please? The ship wars are bad enough.
      I wouldn't consider freaking out about people having second thoughts about whether the morally superior candidate really won the duel as opposed to talking about how it's irrelevant as Zuko is a far more preferable choice for leading the nation regardless necessarily a bad thing. Though at least people haven't explicitly stated that they think Azula should've been acknowledged as Fire Lord instead of Zuko.

      Sorry about that complicated first sentence. :/

      NO ONE LIKES A SMART ASS!!!!!

      Supermensch is not being a smart ass, he is just stating that you shouldn't consider it wrong that some people find it interesting to discuss this topic, and honestly you could try to be a little more polite when you comment, so that we can continue to keep this wiki a nice place for everyone.

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    • ELEMENTAL UNITY wrote:

      Foodblender wrote:

      Supermensch wrote:

      SaeryenKatten wrote:

      Foodblender wrote:
      WHO CARES ABOUT A STUPID ASS AGNE KAI???? SHE WAS CRAZY AND NEEDED TO BE TAKEN DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      ALL I SAW WAS SOME FANCY ASS LIGHTNING STUFF AND SOME CRAZY ASS WATER STUFF THEN HE WAS DOWN BT SHE LOST AND HE HAD TO BE HEELED!!!!

      FOR CRYING OUT LOUD PEOPLE USE YOUR EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


      Um...maybe we could discuss this a bit more civilly, please? The ship wars are bad enough.
      I wouldn't consider freaking out about people having second thoughts about whether the morally superior candidate really won the duel as opposed to talking about how it's irrelevant as Zuko is a far more preferable choice for leading the nation regardless necessarily a bad thing. Though at least people haven't explicitly stated that they think Azula should've been acknowledged as Fire Lord instead of Zuko.

      Sorry about that complicated first sentence. :/

      NO ONE LIKES A SMART ASS!!!!!

      Supermensch is not being a smart ass, he is just stating that you shouldn't consider it wrong that some people find it interesting to discuss this topic, and honestly you could try to be a little more polite when you comment, so that we can continue to keep this wiki a nice place for everyone.

      IM VERY POLITE!!! ITS RUDE TO ASSUME THAT IM NOT! YOU DONT EVEN KNOW ME!!!

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    • Let's not stir off topic, please. Back to the discussion. In terms of the Fire Nation economy, would Azula have been the better Fire Lord?

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    • Waterbend.3.19 wrote:
      Let's not stir off topic, please. Back to the discussion. In terms of the Fire Nation economy, would Azula have been the better Fire Lord?

      That lunitick would not have made a good Fire Lord if you ask me.

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    • Is Fire Lord Izumi a firebender?

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    • I was in another thread and Foodblender was doing the exact same thing there. Ignore them.

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    • I ask again, is Izumi a firebender?

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    • Waterbend.3.19 wrote:
      I ask again, is Izumi a firebender?

      Who knows.

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    • I bet she is but she's like the Huan of the Fire Nation, who although has bending abilities, rarely uses them in the traditional sense.

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    • Waterbend.3.19 wrote:
      I bet she is but she's like the Huan of the Fire Nation, who although has bending abilities, rarely uses them in the traditional sense.

      Maybe or maybe not. I would love to read or watch an Avatar series starring Bumi, Kya, Tenzin, Lin, Suyin, and Izumi in their childhood adventures leading up to Korra's story. I would of added Sokka's children but we don't know if Sokka did end up marrying Suki or have any children.

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    • I would enjoy a series about Kuvira on her journeys stabilizing the Earth Kingdom.

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    • I don't really care what they write about, since there are so many interesting things in the Avatar universe, so I am satisfied as long as they continue to write their comics. 

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    • Waterbend.3.19 wrote:
      I would enjoy a series about Kuvira on her journeys stabilizing the Earth Kingdom.

      Why we already know what she was doing in the Earth Kingdom.

      1. Conquring towns or leaving them to starve if they did not pladge their loyalty to her.

      2. Enslaving the local towns people.

      3. Sending people who objacted to what she was doing to Reeducation Camps.

      4. Throwing thous who were not of Earth Kingdon decant into prisons.

      5. Building a Weapon of Mass Destruction.

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    • I just want to see what hardened Kuvira, the tough decisions she's made, how she handled herself, what led to her engagement, assassination attempts, if there were any, why she was purging states of people who weren't of Earth Kingdom Origin. What's with Bolin?

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    • Waterbend.3.19 wrote:
      I just want to see what hardened Kuvira, the tough decisions she's made, how she handled herself, what led to her engagement, assassination attempts, if there were any, why she was purging states of people who weren't of Earth Kingdom Origin. What's with Bolin?

      The answers are quite simple: She became a power hungry Soceopath, She did things that made others un happy like morcing townsfoke to become slaves, She stayed calm, cool collected and calculating, She and him loved each other because they had similar goals and thier bad love brought out the worst in them like Rosemary West and her husband Fred West, I would't be surprised if she had some Governers killed so she could come in and gain controle of the state for herself, She was a raiceist.

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    • But we've seen the extreme good in Kuvira so we know she can be very complex. I want to see more internal conflict with Kuvira.

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    • Waterbend.3.19 wrote:
      But we've seen the extreme good in Kuvira so we know she can be very complex. I want to see more internal conflict with Kuvira.

      What extream good, she was a Soceopath.

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    • We saw what good intentions she had and how she was capable of doing good when she ended the battle she started.

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    • Waterbend.3.19 wrote:
      We saw what good intentions she had and how she was capable of doing good when she ended the battle she started.

      She still did alot of very bad things. Conquring towns and ruling them with an Iron Fist, Sending people who objacted to what she was doing to Prison camps, Turning the local population into slaves, Being a raceist who throws other's into prisons for not being Earth Kingdom decant, and Building a Weapon of Mass Destruction. How on earth can thous be good things.

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    • Good spirits, from one hemisphere to the other...

      Technically speaking, Kuvira's Reeducation Camps might have had some merit to start with. Kuvira didn't exactly grow up in an environment where there was a lot of slavery or intolerance; good grief, Suyin allowed Varrick in, of all people. Moreover, it seems a bit odd that somebody who felt so strongly about protecting her nation from raiders who were effectively terrorizing the locals would then go ahead and make them all slaves. Perhaps it ended up that way–perhaps she was well on her way to doing that for a while–but knowing her home environment and her general goodwill towards the Earth Kingdom, it most likely didn't start that way. She might have actually set up those camps to EVENTUALLY reeducate people; she was worried about protection for her land; I might be the spawn of Koh.

      Kuvira is one craaaaaaazy person, and really there wasn't enough time to develop her properly before the finale. Not at all like, for example, Azula; maybe a bit like Ozai, but he seems to have gone bad through and through, and Kuvira, as mentioned, at least felt a bit of regret that she wasn't able to help people, in her own special way.

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    • Foodblender wrote:
      WHO CARES ABOUT A STUPID ASS AGNE KAI???? SHE WAS CRAZY AND NEEDED TO BE TAKEN DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      ALL I SAW WAS SOME FANCY ASS LIGHTNING STUFF AND SOME CRAZY ASS WATER STUFF THEN HE WAS DOWN BT SHE LOST AND HE HAD TO BE HEELED!!!!

      FOR CRYING OUT LOUD PEOPLE USE YOUR EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      If I hadn't seen you before, I would have hoped that this was you channeling Azula to show why she would be unfit to rule. Unfortunately, I have seen your posts before and know that you aren't that clever.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Foodblender wrote:
      WHO CARES ABOUT A STUPID ASS AGNE KAI???? SHE WAS CRAZY AND NEEDED TO BE TAKEN DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      ALL I SAW WAS SOME FANCY ASS LIGHTNING STUFF AND SOME CRAZY ASS WATER STUFF THEN HE WAS DOWN BT SHE LOST AND HE HAD TO BE HEELED!!!!

      FOR CRYING OUT LOUD PEOPLE USE YOUR EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      If I hadn't seen you before, I would have hoped that this was you channeling Azula to show why she would be unfit to rule. Unfortunately, I have seen your posts before and know that you aren't that clever.

      No need to insult others on their level of cleverness. Back to the discussion. I actually think that wasn't the worst of Azula, and I do think she can change. If she grew up and got banished with Zuko, it would have taken her a lot longer to change, because I feel her greatest fear is not being loved. Her coping mechanism would be fear.

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    • I agree with you, I also think that Azula could have changed, just like Zuko, but she was her father's daughter, and therefore it would have been very hard for her to change, to be honest I think that Azula's whole worldview would need to be changed in order for her to become "good".

      By the way good job keeping focus on the discussion.

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    • No, Azula forfeited by attacking Katara.

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    • ELEMENTAL UNITY wrote:
      I agree with you, I also think that Azula could have changed, just like Zuko, but she was her father's daughter, and therefore it would have been very hard for her to change, to be honest I think that Azula's whole worldview would need to be changed in order for her to become "good".

      By the way good job keeping focus on the discussion.

      I certainly think Azula can be a better person. I personally think the way she turned out was Ozai's fault, since he basically told her from birth "be a certain way or I'll hate you forever". I don't think Ursa favored Zuko over Azula, I just think she couldn't stand to see what Ozai was turning her daughter into and it broke her heart a bit.

      I hope Azula redeems herself without dying and ends up happy living with Zuko, Iroh, Ursa and maybe a love interest (I hope it's Ty Lee, but to each their own [PS that means do not start a ship war please please please!]).

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    • Zuko lost the Agni Kai, Azula shot at Katara was a strategy to hit Zuko and it worked.

      There are no signs of Ozai being a bad father previous to the letter incident when they were kids and went to the beach. Ursa prefered to spend time with Zuko because he didn't have "something wrong with him" and she tought Azula was hard to handle so she didn't gave her affection. Noriko was right in apologize to Azula for not loving her enough.

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    • Azula beat Zuko...but Katara beat Azula...

      Katara = Fire Lord!

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    • Katara didn't agree to an agni kai with Azula, therefore she is not the fire lord. Also, even Azula at her craziest knows that you can't have an agni kai between non-firebenders.

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    • Katara is firelord by right of conquest. She beat the standing ruler in open combat. Fire Lord Katara!

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    • Seems to me that the fire nation's code of conduct specifies agni kais as the honor-bound method of succession. Open conduct doesn't seem like something that would hold up, especially with a living heir of fire nation decent still there.

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    • Just fyi, I was being facetious.

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    • It's hard to tell with you, Azula.

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    •  I am a 400 foot tall purple platypus bear with pink horns and silver wings.

      Fire Lord Katara!

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    • I'm definitely a Azulector shipper, Hannibal/Azula

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    • I don't think Katara would become Fire Lord, even by chance, because she was never part of the Agni Kai, they hadn't abolished the Royal Family, and Katara wouldn't accept that much power.

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    • Really? Do go on...

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    • Is that sarcasm or seriousness. Do you really want me to go on?

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    • Yes he does, Waterbend, he's bating you.

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    • You know what? Nuff said.

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    • SaitamaBro wrote:
      There are no signs of Ozai being a bad father previous to the letter incident when they were kids and went to the beach.

      He planned to kill newborn Zuko because he maybe wasn't a bender. Also, if he really cared about Zuko he wouldn't have started treating him badly just because Ursa wishfully thought her beloved son was the son of the man she loved. Ozai also forbade Ursa from ever seeing her family again. So something tells me he didn't really care about Azula, either, just how much she could help him rule the world.

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    • I definitely agree with you that Ozai was a bad father, and the main reason why Azula's perception of the world became so twisted, but to Ozai's defence can be said that he was likely brought up in the same way as Azula. Furthermore, I also think that the Fire Nation society contributes in twisting the mind of Azula, and Ozai (and probably a lot more people in the Fire Nation.

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    • I like to think Ozai said that just to get to Zuko and he is like Tywin Lannister.

      And yes, he was brought up like Azula both being the second kid where the firstborn were "more loved" by a parent(Ursa in Azula's case and Azulon in Ozai's) developping a great hatred for them and their parents. You can't just throw Azula's problems at him, he was not shown(at least that i remember) pressuring her and actually did everything she wanted(he sent a teacher to the colonies just because she didn't like him he wouldn't do that if he was reeally pressuring her to learn firebending, a father pressuring his kid will give reason to the teacher and tell the kid to listen to them) and her strive for perfection was just so she could be loved by him, that liked strenght, since her mother didn't show any afection for her. I'm not saying he's a good father but he never liked the way Zuko were and was never shown pressuring him into training.

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    • If it was Ozai, the Fire Nation society or something else I cannot say, but when Azula told Long Feng that she had the divine right to rule, she showed us that she thought that she (and probably the entire Fire Nation royal family) was divine, and I don't think that she has come up with this or any other similar ideas by herself, without having someone else that guided her in that general direction. 

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    • FN is based on Japan so they idolize their leader, just like Bolin and Mako's grandmother with the EK royalty. She grew up in a place everyone treated her like a godess and like i said her father did everything she wanted, this combination didn't really bring the good in her heart.

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    • Yes, that is what I have been trying to say, that the reason why Azula is evil, is mostly (if not entirely) because she was raised in this manner.

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    • I would say Azula being who she became was because Ursa saw how Azula felt a sense of entitlement being in the Royal Family, and she thought since Ursa wouldn't give into it, she felt offended. However, Ozai was there literally eating Azula's crappy behavior and he spoon fed her into creating a false perception of who she was. Azula tended to Ozai because he was the only one in her direct family that would buy into her and the life she created for herself, controlling people with fear and her own induced terror.

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    • Plus the fact that Azula was a sociopath. Consider this: Zuko grew up in that same house and he turned out fine.

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    • They grew up in the same house but in diferent ways, while Zuko still received love from his mother Azula never felt that she only got attention from Ozai because she was a prodigy, that's why she's always striving for perfection. We always see things on Zuko's perspective but have you ever wondered if he stoped playing with his mother a little and started training seriously instead of crying that the world is unfair and his sister is a prodigy who got everything she wanted? She trained hard for that as we see when she was training lightning redirection she wouldn't accept anything less than perfect.

      If you don't remember when Ozai banished Zuko he spent the first season running after the avatar and in the end of the second season he betrayed his uncle, the greatest person to live in the avatar world, and took part in Aang's murder. He only "turned out fine" because he noticed Ozai didn't really loved him, something Azula couldn't because Ozai still liked her ability and for her that's the only kind of love she knows.

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    • SaitamaBro wrote:
      They grew up in the same house but in diferent ways, while Zuko still received love from his mother Azula never felt that she only got attention from Ozai because she was a prodigy, that's why she's always striving for perfection. We always see things on Zuko's perspective but have you ever wondered if he stoped playing with his mother a little and started training seriously instead of crying that the world is unfair and his sister is a prodigy who got everything she wanted? She trained hard for that as we see when she was training lightning redirection she wouldn't accept anything less than perfect.

      If you don't remember when Ozai banished Zuko he spent the first season running after the avatar and in the end of the second season he betrayed his uncle, the greatest person to live in the avatar world, and took part in Aang's murder. He only "turned out fine" because he noticed Ozai didn't really loved him, something Azula couldn't because Ozai still liked her ability and for her that's the only kind of love she knows.

      I actually think that Ursa loved both Azula, and Zuko, but that she spent more time with Zuko, since Ozai disliked him quite much (but it is very possible that Azula felt left out just because of this fact, and I think that the fact that Ursa was banished contributed in making Azula "turn out bad"). Furthermore, I also think that Zuko trained at least almost as much as Azula, because we have seen many times that Zuko can be very determined, so the reason why Azula was better, and got more attention from Ozai. was probably as you said, because she is a prodigy. Finally, Zuko finding out that Ozai didn't really loved him was according to me only the tip of the iceberg in making him "turn out fine", I mean we can't ignore Uncle Iroh, Aang, and his travels in the Earth Kingdom which all clearly contributed to the fact that Zuko "turned out fine". 

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    • ELEMENTAL UNITY wrote:
      SaitamaBro wrote:
      They grew up in the same house but in diferent ways, while Zuko still received love from his mother Azula never felt that she only got attention from Ozai because she was a prodigy, that's why she's always striving for perfection. We always see things on Zuko's perspective but have you ever wondered if he stoped playing with his mother a little and started training seriously instead of crying that the world is unfair and his sister is a prodigy who got everything she wanted? She trained hard for that as we see when she was training lightning redirection she wouldn't accept anything less than perfect.

      If you don't remember when Ozai banished Zuko he spent the first season running after the avatar and in the end of the second season he betrayed his uncle, the greatest person to live in the avatar world, and took part in Aang's murder. He only "turned out fine" because he noticed Ozai didn't really loved him, something Azula couldn't because Ozai still liked her ability and for her that's the only kind of love she knows.

      I actually think that Ursa loved both Azula, and Zuko, but that she spent more time with Zuko, since Ozai disliked him quite much (but it is very possible that Azula felt left out just because of this fact, and I think that the fact that Ursa was banished contributed in making Azula "turn out bad"). Furthermore, I also think that Zuko trained at least almost as much as Azula, because we have seen many times that Zuko can be very determined, so the reason why Azula was better, and got more attention from Ozai. was probably as you said, because she is a prodigy. Finally, Zuko finding out that Ozai didn't really loved him was according to me only the tip of the iceberg in making him "turn out fine", I mean we can't ignore Uncle Iroh, Aang, and his travels in the Earth Kingdom which all clearly contributed to the fact that Zuko "turned out fine". 


      This, exactly!

      (PS I really don't like Ozai in case you couldn't tell)

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    • I sincerely doubt Zuko trained as much, in the flashbacks he didn't have the personality of a determined person he triped on his foot trying to show to his grandfather he is capable as Azula. It may be as you said and Ursa was overprotective towards him wich turned him into a mama's boy crying to the avatar about how the world is unfair. He only got determination when he was banished because he wanted to have Ozai's affection(the only parent he got left), and he's so determined that even after Aang, EK and Iroh(who despite always caring for him as if he was his own son, was called fat and lazy by him) still wanted to go back to the FN and helped Azula in murdering Aang. But then he noticed his father wasn't happy he came back, he was only happy because he thought he killed the avatar. Zuko had everything he always wanted but was not happy, so he went to Iroh and was ignored and sent Sparky Sparky Boom Man after the Gaang because he thought he was feeling that way because the avatar was still alive. I'm not ignoring them, i just think they were minor factors since it looks like they didn't mean much to him.

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    • Well, you are right, from what we saw in the flashbacks Zuko didn't seem to train that much, and wasn't very determined (then again how many kids his age are particularly determined), but on the other hand, Azula didn't seem to train very much either, and I would rather say that she was self confident than determined. Moreover, the fact that Zuko tripped, and still continued to try, is actually something that shows how determined he is. I also don't find it very strange that Zuko tells Aang that he thinks the world is unfair, I mean no kid should have to experience being firebent in the face by their own father. Furthermore, I agree that Zuko wanted Ozai's affection, but I don't think that was the only thing that made him determined, since he also seemed to care about his throne, and his people. Regarding, Zuko's betrayal of his uncle, and his helping Azula in killing Aang, I don't find that to be very strange, because Ozai, and Azula are his family, and the Fire Nation is his country, So it is not that strange that he decided to join them despite Iroh's constant caring, and his little talks with Aang. The part with Combustion Man, also seems quite understandable, I mean Zuko have started to realize that he may have made the wrong decision in joining Azula, and he also notices that his father doesn't really love him, so then he goes to his uncle who has always supported him, in order to get some advices, but when he doesn't get any advice Zuko of course becomes desperate,and hires Combustion Man. So I would say, that these factors are quite major, so at least I, think that everything that happened to Zuko during his banishment (and also some things prior to his banishment) contributed in making him the person he are, which is one of the reasons why I like Zuko as a character, because we got to see how he changed through the different seasons.   

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    • Even if Zuko lost would't they try to depose Azula? She was crazy.

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    • How could they? They were all banished.

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    • I guess that Katara would try to dethrone Azula if Zuko lost the Agni Kai, and if she wouldn't succeed then Aang, Toph, Sokka, and or Suki would probably remove Azula from power. 

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    • I'd say since Azula would've won the Agni Kai, well if she did, then she'd have herr entire nation defending herr, like Ozai, so even though the immediate danger would have gone away, the war would continue until the rebellion had grown big enough.

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    • Well even if Azula would win, Katara would be there to stop her, since there wouldn't be any guards at the moment that protected Azula, and I also don't think that the Fire Nation people would like to be ruled by Azula that much, considering her state of mind. Moreover it would probably be quite hard for Azula to gather troops in order to defend the Fire Nation Capital, because the Fire Nation had lost many troops when the airship fleet was defeated, and when Ba Sing Se was reconquered, and the rest of the Fire Nation troops were probably scattered around the world to defend all of the Fire Nation colonies, and the other parts of the Fire Nation. So even if Katara would be unable to defeat Azula, I don't think that Azula would be able to gather a big enough army to be able to defend herself from Aang, Toph, Sokka, Suki, and or the Order of the White Lotus, which probably would attack her as soon as they would have found out what had happened.

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    • ELEMENTAL UNITY wrote:
      Well even if Azula would win, Katara would be there to stop her, since there wouldn't be any guards at the moment that protected Azula, and I also don't think that the Fire Nation people would like to be ruled by Azula that much, considering her state of mind. Moreover it would probably be quite hard for Azula to gather troops in order to defend the Fire Nation Capital, because the Fire Nation had lost many troops when the airship fleet was defeated, and when Ba Sing Se was reconquered, and the rest of the Fire Nation troops were probably scattered around the world to defend all of the Fire Nation colonies, and the other parts of the Fire Nation. So even if Katara would be unable to defeat Azula, I don't think that Azula would be able to gather a big enough army to be able to defend herself from Aang, Toph, Sokka, Suki, and or the Order of the White Lotus, which probably would attack her as soon as they would have found out what had happened.

      I completaly agree.

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    • I may not know all of the rules, but if an Agni Kai really is a duel between two people, by shooting lightning at Katara (a third party) she nullified the duel.

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    • Azula had won. But it does not matter. Traditions mean nothing if they are not backed by power. Azula was deprived of power.

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    • When thinking back, I realize Azula lost her chance to win as soon as she violated the rules when she forfeited the life of someone besides Zuko, who was the only one participating in the Agni Kai. But as well as that, even though he was protecting Katara from the lightning, could you say stepping out of the Agni Kai could have hindered his chance to become Fire Lord? I mean if he just let Katara get shocked and held his ground, Azula would've been the only one who violated the terms of the agreement.

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    • Waterbend.3.19 wrote:
      When thinking back, I realize Azula lost her chance to win as soon as she violated the rules when she forfeited the life of someone besides Zuko, who was the only one participating in the Agni Kai. But as well as that, even though he was protecting Katara from the lightning, could you say stepping out of the Agni Kai could have hindered his chance to become Fire Lord? I mean if he just let Katara get shocked and held his ground, Azula would've been the only one who violated the terms of the agreement.

      In the rules clearly stated that the fight struck by lightning and fireballs can only enemy? If one of the fighters accidentally hit a passer he becomes a loser? If the answer to these questions is negative Azula had won. Azula could shoot lightning anywhere (a person, a tree, a UFO), it was a decision Zuko respond to her actions.

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    • Independently of where she shot the lightning, it hit Zuko and he went down.

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    • could you say stepping out of the Agni Kai could have hindered his chance to become Fire Lord?

      It was an Agni Kai for the throne, so yes.

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    • She deliberately used something out of the scope of the duel against him. This is a contest heavily rooted in honor. Her doing that is dishonorable. What you're saying is akin to claiming that if Zuko had Katara standing outside the ring behind Azula, then when they were dueling, Katara launches an ice shard through Azula's back, killing her, therefore, Zuko wins. Would that be fine? If the Fire Lord fought Agni Kais against other individuals, but he had his army just hurling fireballs at the Fire Lord's opponents while he easily survives with his opponents being burned to a crisp, is that winning this honor duel? If I play chess against someone, then I grab their hand, and force them to lay down their king, do I win?

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    • Unless the rules match ban opponents to distract each other to carry out a successful attack? It was a deceptive move with the use of the environment.

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    • So, that's a "yes, fair game" on Katara lobbing an ice shard through Azula's back counting as a win for Zuko.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      So, that's a "yes, fair game" on Katara lobbing an ice shard through Azula's back counting as a win for Zuko.

      But Katara did not burn Azula.

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    • Point being, by your reasoning, anything that happens outside is fair game. So, if a participant in an Agni Kai brought a ton of their friends to jump the other participant, that's okay, it counts, it's just the person bringing the posse "using their environment."

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Point being, by your reasoning, anything that happens outside is fair game. So, if a participant in an Agni Kai brought a ton of their friends to jump the other participant, that's okay, it counts, it's just the person bringing the posse "using their environment."

      Katara can be considered as an additional weapon. Azula use this weapon is to distract the enemy. Zuko tried to use this weapon to win. But as stated in the rules to win you need to burn the enemy.To win is not enough to immobilize the enemy.

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    • Where are these rules posted? And, okay, Katara shoves an ice lance through Azula, impaling her, as her cold, lifeless corpse lies on the ground, Zuko singes her with firebending, thus winning the Agni Kai.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Where are these rules posted? And, okay, Katara shoves an ice lance through Azula, impaling her, as her cold, lifeless corpse lies on the ground, Zuko singes her with firebending, thus winning the Agni Kai.

      This is really going on in the show?

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    • The fact is: she didn't hit Katara, she hit Zuko. She pointed at her but hit Zuko and he went down.

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    • Let's think about Zhao's attack on Zuko while his back was turned. I'd say it was pretty "deceptive", yet Iroh said it was dishonorable. As such, it's not too much of a stretch to say Azula involving Katara in the fight to be considered a low tactic.

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    • That was because the Agni Kai was already over. Iroh would never say that if Zuko turned his back to Zhao during the Agni Kai(something he never did because, well, it's pretty fucking stupid).

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    • I was addressing Integer's comments. And from his point of view, an Agni Kai isn't over until one combatant burns the other. But I'm glad you could clarify that the Agni Kai was over for me :P

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    • It is also a fact that Azula clearly targeted Katara with her lightning attack. This was a dishonorable move that intentionally involved something outside of the ring and wasn't demonstrating relative skill in a 1v1 duel. So, I maintain, if Azula can do that, and that's considered fair, there's zero reason why someone can't just have outside help and still be considered being the winner.

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    • Another funny fact is that Katara wasn't hit by the lightning, Zuko was. Azula could shoot the lightning anywhere, she could target the sky, the floor, whatever. She targeted Katara because Zuko was going to try and protect her, wich he did and failed to redirect the lightning. If Katara was hit or Zuko didn't try to stop the lightining and she had to dodge it i would give you reason, but it  was between Azula and Zuko even after she pointed her fingers at Katara because Zuko was the one hit by it. If Katara attacked her during the Agni Kai then it would be over because it would stop being between them. It was still a 1 x 1 duel.

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    • Lolno, Katara is a person. When you target others, you involve them. It's as simple as that. Intention matters, not result, and it was her intention to attack Katara.

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    • This intention thing makes no sense. If she targeted her with the intention of hitting Zuko, then she wasn't involvong her. She wasn't going to fight both of them no matter how crazy she was, and Zuko could redirect her lightning so she pointed at her so Zuko would try to protect her and be hit by the lightning. That's what happened. Both result and intention favouring my point.

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    • If Agni Kai is supposed to be an honourable duel, there is no way targeting an ally of the other combatant is fair and surely has to break the rules of engagement.

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    • We don't know the rules of an Agni Kai, and if we should take honor as a measure Ozai also lost his Agni Kai against Zuko by breaking the rules.

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    • Azula burn Zuko. Zuko did not burn Azula. Azula had won.

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    • Yes but an Agni Kai is a fire duel. She used lightning which is not allowed.

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    • SaitamaBro wrote:
      Another funny fact is that Katara wasn't hit by the lightning, Zuko was. Azula could shoot the lightning anywhere, she could target the sky, the floor, whatever. She targeted Katara because Zuko was going to try and protect her, wich he did and failed to redirect the lightning. If Katara was hit or Zuko didn't try to stop the lightining and she had to dodge it i would give you reason, but it  was between Azula and Zuko even after she pointed her fingers at Katara because Zuko was the one hit by it. If Katara attacked her during the Agni Kai then it would be over because it would stop being between them. It was still a 1 x 1 duel.

      So, still, she's knowingly involving something outside of the ring. Let's say the Fire Lord is having an Agni Kai vs some random firebender and he ties up the random firebenders' family to stakes just outside of the ring before the match and then during the match starts firing at them. This is fair by your reasoning.

      What you're still missing is that Azula involved an outsider. She didn't hit said outsider because Zuko actively blocked it, but this distraction was outside of the scope of an Agni Kai. It's, again, an honor duel between two opponents, when you start involving others, it ceases to be that. Azula played dirty and she knew it, she didn't win fair and square and if she gets to involve an outsider like that, then so what if Zuko has help jump in? Azula broke the 1v1 when she targeted Katara.

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    • 81cheney wrote:
      Yes but an Agni Kai is a fire duel. She used lightning which is not allowed.

      To burn the enemy needs firebending. Lightning is firebending.

      "Lightning, also known as "the cold-blooded fire", is considered the most powerful firebending technique, and its use was available only to a select few firebending prodigies and masters."

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    • SaitamaBro wrote:
      We don't know the rules of an Agni Kai, and if we should take honor as a measure Ozai also lost his Agni Kai against Zuko by breaking the rules.

      When did Ozai break the rules against Zuko? It was a dick move of him, but he either legitimately beat him or Zuko forfeit and Ozai blasted him afterward. Terrible parenting, but not really winning through cheating.

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    • SaitamaBro wrote:
      If Katara was hit or Zuko didn't try to stop the lightining and she had to dodge it i would give you reason,
      Let's say the Fire Lord is having an Agni Kai vs some random firebender and he ties up the random firebenders' family to stakes just outside of the ring before the match and then during the match starts firing at them. This is fair by your reasoning.

      It's diferent from what i said.

      It's, again, an honor duel between two opponents

      And again, we don't know all the rules of said duel. We don't know how it's defined an ending to the duel. If we take only honor as a definition for the rules then Ozai broke them and lost the Agni Kai.

      then so what if Zuko has help jump in?

      Let's say you're right. One of the things we know about an Agni Kai is that only firebenders can participate on it.

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    • ... How did Ozai break the rules?

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    • I was taking honor as a definition for the rules.

      How is it honorable to attack a kneeling opponent that has surrendered himself?

      Edit: forgot to add crying for forgiviness.

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    • It's diferent from what i said.

      In what way? Opponent is probably desperately trying to block the shots at their family and is unduly distracted with an external element...just like Zuko was.

      And again, we don't know all the rules of said duel. We don't know how it's defined an ending to the duel. If we take only honor as a definition for the rules then Ozai broke them and lost the Agni Kai.

      Fair enough, but then by the same token you cannot definitively claim that Azula adhered to the rules of Agni Kai.

      Let's say you're right. One of the things we know about an Agni Kai is that only firebenders can participate on it.

      Then Azula's targeting a nonfirebender breaks the Agni Kai.

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    • Fair enough, but then by the same token you cannot definitively claim that Azula adhered to the rules of Agni Kai.

      Yes, i can only assume, wich is what i'm doing.

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    • Since none of us know the rules of Agni Kai, except that it is some form of honour bound duel. So if Azula won the fight or not depends on if you view her action to aim, and fire a lightning bolt towards Katara to be dishonest or not. 

      Now regarding Zuko's, and Ozai's Agni Kai, I don't think that the people in the Fire Nation would consider Ozai's actions to be dishonest, since Zuko had actually accepted to participate in the Agni Kai (although he didn't know that it was his father he had to duel), moreover it is the victor of the Agni Kai that decides if he/she will spare his/her opponent, even if this victory is achieved because the opponent surrenders. Finally, support for my thoughts regarding Zuko's, and Ozai's Agni Kai can be found on the old ATLA official site in book 1 episode 12 in the "locations" segment.

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    • If there was no Fire Lord after the Agni Kai and the day Sozin's Comet passed the world, the Fire Nation would've spiraled into chaos.

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    • It's kind of amazing that it didn't spiral into chaos even with Zuko stepping in to take the reins.

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    • We actually got a lot of hints during book three that the majority of the fire nation wasn't on the same page as ozai and the military so it does make sense that zuko was able to lead without a complete rebellion however this is addressed in the promise.

      As for the war minister, general shynu and the rest of ozais cronies they were Probaly incarcerated.

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    • Why do you guys think that the Fire Nation would spiral into chaos?  I myself think that it looked pretty stable, with no signs of crumbling apart. As for war minister Qin, general Shyu and other high military leaders, I think that Zuko would settle with dismissing them and he would probably keep some of them on duty, since it is bad to change all high officers in the military at once and because some of them hadn't done anything wrong, they just waged war with their enemy.

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    • They run on a Monarchy and they were very militaristic and expansionists. Having their military war machine toppled and their strong leader captured and stripped of his bending ability, that's a huge shock. It's not unreasonable to expect unrest and/or factions trying to go different directions...which is what sounds to be the focus of the upcoming books.

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    • Well, only a small part (their airship fleet) of the Fire Nation military was toppled and yes Ozai was stripped of his power and position, but the Fire Nation didn't fall into anarchy when Ozai took the throne from Azulon/Iroh. Furthermore, the Fire Nation is quite wealthy and most Fire Nation citizens live under good conditions, which I think makes them less prone to start riots and or civil wars and I have also got the feeling that struggles for power in the Fire Nation takes place in secrecy between the persons that are involved without involving anyone else (except for maybe a small amount of soldiers or assassins), but that is just my thought about this.

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    • Not only Ozai's offensive fleet, but Azula at home was defeated, after she kind of screwed the order up there as she spiraled down the drain.

      When Azulan was assassinated, the nation was not in trouble both domestically and abroad. There was a coalition of the other nations to oppose the Fire Nation, and had another externally antagonistic Fire Lord taken over instead of Zuko, chances are there would be an invasion with a combined force of Water Nation North and South, as well as the Earth Nation, along with the Order of the White Lotus and Avatar Aang. Hawkish factions probably still want war and expansion, but this would be very problematic for the Fire Nation at that point.

      I agree with your last bit, that's probably more how they operate with political intrigue, however, in this instance, it was all right out in the open; Zuko very publically challenged Azula and Ozai got wrecked by Avatar Aang in a huge battle as his offensive force quite literally went down in flames, as they simultaneously lost major occupied territory. Ba Sing Se being reclaimed was a huge defeat, not to mention, the psychological factor of the Fire Nation being utterly rolled during Sozin's Comet, the firebenders' absolute peak for bending power. That was a really really crappy day for the Fire Nation, well, if you were drinking the cactus juice of Ozai's ultra nationalist propaganda anyways.

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    • Weltall8000 wrote:
      Not only Ozai's offensive fleet, but Azula at home was defeated, after she kind of screwed the order up there as she spiraled down the drain.

      When Azulan was assassinated, the nation was not in trouble both domestically and abroad. There was a coalition of the other nations to oppose the Fire Nation, and had another externally antagonistic Fire Lord taken over instead of Zuko, chances are there would be an invasion with a combined force of Water Nation North and South, as well as the Earth Nation, along with the Order of the White Lotus and Avatar Aang. Hawkish factions probably still want war and expansion, but this would be very problematic for the Fire Nation at that point.

      I agree with your last bit, that's probably more how they operate with political intrigue, however, in this instance, it was all right out in the open; Zuko very publically challenged Azula and Ozai got wrecked by Avatar Aang in a huge battle as his offensive force quite literally went down in flames, as they simultaneously lost major occupied territory. Ba Sing Se being reclaimed was a huge defeat, not to mention, the psychological factor of the Fire Nation being utterly rolled during Sozin's Comet, the firebenders' absolute peak for bending power. That was a really really crappy day for the Fire Nation, well, if you were drinking the cactus juice of Ozai's ultra nationalist propaganda anyways.

      Yes Azula was defeated, but she kind of defeated herself, and I am quite sure that people would rather want Zuko as a Fire Lord than Azula when her mind was at that state. 

      Nevertheless, even though Ozai, his fleet and Azula was defeated, the Fire Nation still has their enormous fleet of ship, I mean did you see how many ships they amassed for the invasion of the North Pole or how many ships they have that guards their border in the Fire Navy blockade. Additionally the Fire Nation should also have a lot of troops stationed in the colonies to protect them and if the need arise then I suppose that they could be sent home to defend the Fire Nation.

      Now regarding the Fire Nations problems abroad and domestically, the problem abroad was that they lost Ba Sing Se, which they had recently conquered,  and their airship fleet (including Ozai being defeated), however as I said, they still probably retain the majority of their military power and all the other colonies, so yeah it was a big drawback for the Fire Nation, but they are far from defeated. Domestically, Azula caused some problems by banishing a lot of people and the Fire Nation Capital took some damage during Zuko and Azula's agni kai, but except for that, I don't see any problems, sure Zuko took the throne from Azula, but she didn't seem to be in a condition to rule and Zuko is after all the rightful heir to the throne, so it is not like a stranger suddenly became Fire Lord.

      On another note, if an invasion of the Fire Nation would occur, then I think that eventual factions that might have been created would unite to defeat the common enemy, also I think that an invasion would be quite unlikely. The reason why I think that the invasion would be unlikely is because the Earth Kingdom would probably have more pressing matters to take care of like taking proper control of Ba Sing Se and the North Pole is very isolationist, so they wouldn't help in an invasion either. That means that the invasion would once again consist of Aang his gang and all of their friends, but with the addition of the White Lotus, now these people together is a formidable force and could maybe take care of anything that the Fire Nation throws at them, but they are too few to claim large territories and maintain control of them.

      Now if we talk about Zuko's claim to the throne, yes it was right out in the open, but it didn't threaten to divide the Fire Nation or throw it into a civil war. Moreover, I agree with you that it probably had a major psychological effect on the Fire Nation military that they lost during the time Sozin's Comet passed, however this negative psychological effect could be somewhat dampened if the military is reminded that a major reason why they lost Ba Sing Se is because Iroh and Jeong Jeong participated in the battle and they are firebenders, so they were also at their peak. The same thing goes for Aang when he defeating Ozai, Aang's firebending was also at its peak during the passing of Sozin's Comet, on the other hand Aang didn't rely to much on his firebending to defeat Ozai, nevertheless the Fire Nation have always known that the Avatar has the power to stop them.

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    • I don't know if anyone mentioned this.... But I think that Agni Kai thing was supposed to be a joke.  Its like Iroh said.  That Firelords had been killing Firelords and killing each other hurting and messing each other up.  His brother stole his throne, the war killed his son, Ursa poisoned the Firelord Azulon, Sozen let his best friend died and killed the Air Nomas.  Iroh knew that this way of life wasn't sustainable and that something had to change. Otherwise HE would have just shot Azula.

      It was all done under the guise of respectablity. Agni Kais was never going to solve the problem. It would just create a new socipath to lead the fire nation. They needed someone to come in and end the fight.  The fight was pointless and the so called "honor" of Agni Kai was just an illusion that Fire Nation told itself.  

      That is why Katara had to break up the fight.  It would have been more and more escalating stupid chaos until everyone and everything was dead, whether it had merit or honor or sympathy in the first place. Zuko is a thoughtful kid and even Azula is a human being underneath the crazy, but pretending this was the best way of life. The only one who could de-escalate this bullcrap was someone who was brave, calm, strong , kind and ethical.  Someone who would stand up for her friends.

      Everybody thought Zuko would kill his sister, except for the Fire Nation who thought Azula would win. Their stupid Agni Kai was not going to solve anything.  You don't fight fire with fire.  Katara breaks it up and the Avatar tells everyone to f*& off home.

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    • Azula technically won the agni kai and Zuko did technically lose. here's the proof:

      1) Azula used lightning because Zuko taunted her into doing so (he was literally asking for it). Plus, lightning generation is a form of firebending, so it's not entirely cheating as an agni kai is a fire duel.

      2) When Azula shot Zuko with lightning, there was no way he could've continued even if Katara had just healed him as he was shown afterwards still hurt from the fight when he saw Mai again. Azula would easily have demolished him. Also, Katara healing Zuko would be considered cheating as waterbenders aren't supposed to be in Agni Kai's as it is a fire duel and not a "Fire slash Water Truel"

      Truel definition- a duel between 3 opponents

      3) Zuko cheated when Katara took his place in the fight as an Agni Kai is a "Fire duel", not a "Fire slash Water duel"

      And that's your proof Hotblaze1, so Kudos to you!

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    • Except you've neglected the possibility that Azula attacking someone outside of the duel might be considered cheating. We don't know how that works, it is an unprecedented problem.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Except you've neglected the possibility that Azula attacking someone outside of the duel might be considered cheating. We don't know how that works, it is an unprecedented problem.

      Here's something else being seen as possible cheating: Katara running into the agni kai area in the first place. She could've stayed out of the way like those fire sages most likely did as I don't recall seeing them at any point during the agni kai, but as Zuko started taunting Azula, she ran up closer behind Zuko and as Azula was generating the lightning, she looked at Katara and saw an "opportunity"

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    • That is highly unlikely. Iroh was on-deck when Zuko fought an Agni Kai against Zhao, & Zuko's win was considered legitimate.

      Anyway, the point is that without knowing the rules on attacking bystanders, it is impossible to say if Azula attacking Katara was legitimate within the context of an Agni Kai. As all of your arguments that Zuko "technically lost" rely on the assumption that she did not void the duel by doing so, there is reasonable doubt.

      Personally, I don't think it would be much of a "duel" if you're allowed to attack the audience to try to gain an edge.

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    • Not only was Iroh close by when Zuko dueled Zhao, but he also gave Zuko advice on how he was supposed to win the battle and he stopped Zhao's attempt at attacking Zuko from behind, telling him that it was a very dishonorable act, so there is most likely a whole lot of honour involved in Agni Kais and I don't think it would be considered honourable to attack bystanders. However what is honourable or not is not a definite fact, but the fact (which Neo Bahamut has brought up) that we don't know the exact rules of Agni Kais make it hard for us to determine for sure who won the Agni Kai.

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    • I decided not to count Iroh stepping in to block the attack, because the general understanding is that Zuko had already won by that point, but now that you mention it, I did forget that he actually shouted advice.

      Agni Kais are apparently a spectator sport, I guess that sort of makes sense.

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    • Yeah I understand that you didn't include Iroh's intervention because the Agni Kai had already ended, I myself included it to highlight the honour aspect of the Agni Kais.

      As for Agni Kais being a spectator sport, that definitely seems to be true considering the massive audience during the Agni Kai between Zuko and Ozai, however all Agni Kais may not have such big audiences, since I suppose that this Agni Kai was especially interesting to watch, but when I thought about this Agni Kai it made me wonder, did the audience know that Zuko was about to battle Ozai?

      I also thought about how Agni Kais possibly could have been used in many political power struggles, but in this case I think it would be used more as a threat, like if someone knew they could defeat their enemy in an Agni Kai they may have challenged them unofficially and the enemy (knowing he would lose) would then surrender unofficially in order to avoid disgrace. This lead me to think about the purpose of the Agni Kai, which I guess is to ensure that the most powerful individuals rules the Fire Nation, but the question is, would honour and fighting fair be considered part of a strong individual and leadership (Zuko) or does the Fire Nation want people that makes sure to win with any means necessary (Azula)?

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    • As for Agni Kais being a spectator sport, that definitely seems to be true considering the massive audience during the Agni Kai between Zuko and Ozai, however all Agni Kais may not have such big audiences,

      I suspect it varies based on whether or not an audience is available & how interesting the fight is.

      but when I thought about this Agni Kai it made me wonder, did the audience know that Zuko was about to battle Ozai?

      I would say they probably did, for several reasons:

      • They did not, as far as we can tell, react with shock at the start of the duel.
      • This is probably in part because, though the way the duel was set up hid him from Zuko & we the real world audience, the Fire Lord had to have been visible to a number of people in the stands.
      • It's suggested that Zuko was ignorant of the customs surrounding speaking out of turn in the Fire Lord's chamber, but the adults were not.
      I also thought about how Agni Kais possibly could have been used in many political power struggles, but in this case I think it would be used more as a threat, like if someone knew they could defeat their enemy in an Agni Kai they may have challenged them unofficially and the enemy (knowing he would lose) would then surrender unofficially in order to avoid disgrace.

      Yeah, probably. Death is apparently a serious risk in an Agni Kai, yet if they decline then the stigma could well destroy their political career, so it would be very advantageous to use against a weaker firebender. The fact that insulting a superior officer is grounds for an Agni Kai could reflect this. The choice between status or life may have a greater effect on unruly soldiers or firebrand politicians than conventional discipline, & so be an effective threat to keep them in line under an illusion of a fair meritocracy.

      This lead me to think about the purpose of the Agni Kai, which I guess is to ensure that the most powerful individuals rules the Fire Nation, but the question is, would honour and fighting fair be considered part of a strong individual and leadership (Zuko) or does the Fire Nation want people that makes sure to win with any means necessary (Azula)?

      I am inclined to speculate that attacking the audience is not considered a viable tactic because (A) it doesn't demonstrate that the combatant wins through honor & strength, (B) the audience would usually be Fire Nation citizens, so this would damage morale, & (C) it would discourage people from attending Agni Kais, which further damages morale.

      Of course, I don't think anything is quite that simple. The Fire Nation military was quite willing to pollute that tiny fishing village, so abuses against poor or rural citizens are probably more likely to be overlooked.

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    • I agree with you on the previous points, but I will comment further on the matter below.

      "I am inclined to speculate that attacking the audience is not considered a viable tactic because (A) it doesn't demonstrate that the combatant wins through honor & strength, (B) the audience would usually be Fire Nation citizens, so this would damage morale, & (C) it would discourage people from attending Agni Kais, which further damages morale.

      Of course, I don't think anything is quite that simple. The Fire Nation military was quite willing to pollute that tiny fishing village, so abuses against poor or rural citizens are probably more likely to be overlooked." Yes I think you hit the nail on the head by saying that it isn't very simple, except for your example with the small fishing village we also have that one General, which intended to sacrifice some new recruits to defeat some of the Earth Kingdoms more experienced soldiers, where Zuko and Iroh seemed to be the only persons (on the meeting) reacting badly to that plan. So I guess that decisions that are morally questionable are either kept hidden from the public or excused by saying that the decision is better for the Fire Nation as a whole and or the Fire Lord.  

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    • To me, yes, he lost. Zuko needed Katara to win; he probably would never have won without her. He went down like Iroh predicted he would if he took on Azula by himself. Half of Azula's strength comes from her wit, even though that was impailed, she still realized that if she shot at Katara, Zuko would go off balance and try to protect her. If Katara wouldn't have been there, would he have handled Azula? Honestly, it's unclear. You could say that "of course! Azula was clearly sloppy." But to me, Zuko and Azula seemed pretty even for the first time in the series. Zuko's firebending had improved since he learned from the dragons, but since he was so far behind Azula, it had only improved to her level when she was mentally impaired. Still, Azula isn't stupid. She was probably never going to shoot lightning directly at Zuko. She looked around before she realeased it; it was most likely going towards the surroundings or at his feet to get him off balance. Then popped in Katara. Since Katara was there, would Zuko have survived without her? No. Once Azula did her trick, Zuko needed Katara's healing abilities. Like Iroh predicted, they needed each other to take her down.

      You could argue that since Azula shot at Katara, it voided the agni kai. But the fact is, Azula took Zuko down. He lost. He wouldn't have lived without Katara. It was Katara who took Azula down and then healed him. Poor Zuko, can't even win against Azula when she's completely bonkers! ;)

      However, I don't really understand how this fight was any different than Iroh's "I can't fight Ozai, because history would see it as senseless violence between brother and brother, a brother taking down a brother for power." Here, you have a brother taking down his sister for power. Obviously, I'm not advocating an Azula rule; that would be awful. However, I'm stating that it makes either little sense to Iroh's comment or the validity of an agni kai between Zuko and Azula, whichever way you want to look at it. I guess since Zuko did technically lose (haha ;D), history can look at it as Katara taking down Azula.

      An interesting question - even if Azula shot the lightning directly at Zuko, do you think Zuko would have redirected it directly back at her? He seems a little sympathetic towards his little sister, though she could clearly take him out with no worry. I don't know if he would have the guts (I don't know if that's the right word, more like the emotional apathy) to kill his sister. At one point, his family was happy, and they did all get along.

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    • You could argue that since Azula shot at Katara, it voided the agni kai.

      Well, yeah, the title is, "Did he technically lose the Agni Kai." Of course he lost the fight if we ignore things like fairness & technicalities.

      However, I don't really understand how this fight was any different than Iroh's "I can't fight Ozai, because history would see it as senseless violence between brother and brother, a brother taking down a brother for power."

      I think the notion is that, as long as the Avatar defeats the Fire Lord, the details don't matter.

      An interesting question - even if Azula shot the lightning directly at Zuko, do you think Zuko would have redirected it directly back at her?

      Dunno, I could see it go either way.

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    • I agree with you that Zuko and Azula was very evenly matched in their Agni Kai, but in a even fight even the smallest of things can tip the balance in favour of one of the combatants, like when Zuko managed to hit Azula with his firebending breakdance, not because it injured Azula physically, however it was probably a huge mental blow for Azula to be temporarily bested by Zuko (especially in her mentally unstable condition). So if the fight would have continued from that point onward I think that Zuko would have won (primarily because of Azula's increasing mental breakdown) and I don't think that Iroh's prediction accounted for Azula's reduced psychological capabilities.

      Regarding Iroh's statement about siblings fighting for power, I think the major difference between Iroh fighting Ozai and Zuko fighting Azula is that when Ozai was defeated by Aang there needed to be a new ruler of the Fire Nation and both Zuko and Azula are natural choices for that position. However Aang could of course interfere again and make sure that Zuko is crowned Fire Lord, but this could create huge internal tensions in the Fire Nation and might create a civil war, I mean that Aang had to stop Ozai from burning down the Earth Kingdom isn't that hard to understand for even the Fire Nation, but that he is going to decide who is going to rule their country, might be considered a step to far. Furthermore Zuko and Azula's fight wasn't really for power, but for potential power, since none of them would get to rule until Aang had defeated Ozai, so their fight was a way to settle an internal political struggle and to stop a potential civil war.

      As for Zuko's potential redirection of Azula's lightning, no I don't think that Zuko would redirect it directly at her, since I don't think that he wanted to kill her, because if he would have wanted to kill her he would probably tried to firebend at her while she was knocked down by his firebending breakdance. Another reason why I don't think he would want to kill her is because it would probably make him think that he resembled his father to much (considering Zuko's and Ozai's Agni Kai) and I don't think  Zuko want to be like his father.

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    • There's no way Zuko lost. Because Azula acted unethically when she decided to attack someone not involved in the match, she forfeited the match, so Zuko won the match by default.

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    • Agni Kai is two people; Azula lost when she got Katara involved (by firing her lightning at her).

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    • ELEMENTAL UNITY wrote:
      SaitamaBro wrote:
      They grew up in the same house but in diferent ways, while Zuko still received love from his mother Azula never felt that she only got attention from Ozai because she was a prodigy, that's why she's always striving for perfection. We always see things on Zuko's perspective but have you ever wondered if he stoped playing with his mother a little and started training seriously instead of crying that the world is unfair and his sister is a prodigy who got everything she wanted? She trained hard for that as we see when she was training lightning redirection she wouldn't accept anything less than perfect.

      If you don't remember when Ozai banished Zuko he spent the first season running after the avatar and in the end of the second season he betrayed his uncle, the greatest person to live in the avatar world, and took part in Aang's murder. He only "turned out fine" because he noticed Ozai didn't really loved him, something Azula couldn't because Ozai still liked her ability and for her that's the only kind of love she knows.

      I actually think that Ursa loved both Azula, and Zuko, but that she spent more time with Zuko, since Ozai disliked him quite much (but it is very possible that Azula felt left out just because of this fact, and I think that the fact that Ursa was banished contributed in making Azula "turn out bad"). Furthermore, I also think that Zuko trained at least almost as much as Azula, because we have seen many times that Zuko can be very determined, so the reason why Azula was better, and got more attention from Ozai. was probably as you said, because she is a prodigy. Finally, Zuko finding out that Ozai didn't really loved him was according to me only the tip of the iceberg in making him "turn out fine", I mean we can't ignore Uncle Iroh, Aang, and his travels in the Earth Kingdom which all clearly contributed to the fact that Zuko "turned out fine". 

      I know this is an off-topic conversation, but I wanted to butt in anyway

      I think the reason Ursa spent so much time with Zuko is because he was such an easy target for Ozai. Azula was favored by Ozai because of her abilities; he didn't actually love her. Ursa's mistake was letting Ozai corrupt Azula (although I'm not sure what she could've done, Ozai pretty much gets his way in everything). I think Azula knew, deep down, that it was her abilities that made Ozai favor her so much, which is why she was such a perfectionist. She was desperate for love and approval, so she used fear to get people to stay with her (like Mai and Ty Lee, which is why she started losing it when they left her - she knew her tactics didn't work anymore, even with the people closest to her; she knew she had nobody... Which also explains why she got so upset when Ozai told her she couldn't go with him in the episode The Phoenix King; she thought her own father no longer wanted/needed her, AND why she was so paranoid with the Dai Li [although she did have a good point about them]... But anyway...). Zuko turned out fine because he followed his mother's and Iroh's example. However, he was somewhat corrupted in his search for the Avatar, because he, like Azula, was desperate for his father's approval and affection. BUT, unlike Azula, he had Iroh there with him. Zuko always had a sense of right and wrong (I'm sure Azula did, too, at one point, but she ignored it in favor of her father's affection), which is why he struggled so much. He pretty much had to decide between his father's approval and doing the right thing. 

      I think this is also why Zuko and Iroh had such a strong bond. Zuko realized Iroh was the father he never had (which I think was his turning point; he knew he didn't need Ozai when Iroh was a much better father to him), and Iroh saw Zuko as another son (especially after Lu Ten's death).

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    • EmeraldLion wrote:

      ELEMENTAL UNITY wrote:
      SaitamaBro wrote:
      They grew up in the same house but in diferent ways, while Zuko still received love from his mother Azula never felt that she only got attention from Ozai because she was a prodigy, that's why she's always striving for perfection. We always see things on Zuko's perspective but have you ever wondered if he stoped playing with his mother a little and started training seriously instead of crying that the world is unfair and his sister is a prodigy who got everything she wanted? She trained hard for that as we see when she was training lightning redirection she wouldn't accept anything less than perfect.

      If you don't remember when Ozai banished Zuko he spent the first season running after the avatar and in the end of the second season he betrayed his uncle, the greatest person to live in the avatar world, and took part in Aang's murder. He only "turned out fine" because he noticed Ozai didn't really loved him, something Azula couldn't because Ozai still liked her ability and for her that's the only kind of love she knows.

      I actually think that Ursa loved both Azula, and Zuko, but that she spent more time with Zuko, since Ozai disliked him quite much (but it is very possible that Azula felt left out just because of this fact, and I think that the fact that Ursa was banished contributed in making Azula "turn out bad"). Furthermore, I also think that Zuko trained at least almost as much as Azula, because we have seen many times that Zuko can be very determined, so the reason why Azula was better, and got more attention from Ozai. was probably as you said, because she is a prodigy. Finally, Zuko finding out that Ozai didn't really loved him was according to me only the tip of the iceberg in making him "turn out fine", I mean we can't ignore Uncle Iroh, Aang, and his travels in the Earth Kingdom which all clearly contributed to the fact that Zuko "turned out fine". 

      I know this is an off-topic conversation, but I wanted to butt in anyway

      I think the reason Ursa spent so much time with Zuko is because he was such an easy target for Ozai. Azula was favored by Ozai because of her abilities; he didn't actually love her. Ursa's mistake was letting Ozai corrupt Azula (although I'm not sure what she could've done, Ozai pretty much gets his way in everything). I think Azula knew, deep down, that it was her abilities that made Ozai favor her so much, which is why she was such a perfectionist. She was desperate for love and approval, so she used fear to get people to stay with her (like Mai and Ty Lee, which is why she started losing it when they left her - she knew her tactics didn't work anymore, even with the people closest to her; she knew she had nobody... Which also explains why she got so upset when Ozai told her she couldn't go with him in the episode The Phoenix King; she thought her own father no longer wanted/needed her, AND why she was so paranoid with the Dai Li [although she did have a good point about them]... But anyway...). Zuko turned out fine because he followed his mother's and Iroh's example. However, he was somewhat corrupted in his search for the Avatar, because he, like Azula, was desperate for his father's approval and affection. BUT, unlike Azula, he had Iroh there with him. Zuko always had a sense of right and wrong (I'm sure Azula did, too, at one point, but she ignored it in favor of her father's affection), which is why he struggled so much. He pretty much had to decide between his father's approval and doing the right thing. 

      I think this is also why Zuko and Iroh had such a strong bond. Zuko realized Iroh was the father he never had (which I think was his turning point; he knew he didn't need Ozai when Iroh was a much better father to him), and Iroh saw Zuko as another son (especially after Lu Ten's death).

      It's hardly off-topic if it gets your attention.

      Just to share my piece on Zuko's training, he spent his time in the Earth Kingdom and with Team Avatar, which aided greatly in his training to face Azula. Azula, while probably trained with just words by Lo and Li, was likely had to be self-taught by observing several Firebenders in the past. But her bending was fueled by negative emotions, not the positive ones that made Zuko stronger.

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    • technically Azula broke the Agni Kai by firing at a spectator, Katara. Once she did that anybody could have intervened. Even if she didn't Zuko would have own because he wasn't going crazy, and because he was drawing his power from the true source, life and energy, not power, hate, and fear as Azula was. 

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    • Katara: "I'm the one who should be thanking you."

      I think it sounds a bit like "I'm the one who should be thanking you, Fire Lord Zuko."

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    • Hotblaze1 wrote:
      Since Azula challenged Zuko to an Agni Kai, It should have just been Azula vs Zuko, but Azula aimed her Lightning at Katara, And Zuko Blocked it, but couldn't fight anymore.

      Judging from what we can see in the series, an Agni Kai is specifically a one-on-one duel between two firebenders. There are no acceptable targets other than your opponent, and honor is a very important part of it. 

      Katara is neither a firebender, nor Azula's opponent, and therefore uninvolved in the duel. She is, basically, the audience. Attacking the audience is in all likelihood a highly dishonorable move, as is attacking your opponent from behind. Thus, by targeting Katara(a non-firebender who was uninvolved in the duel), AZULA automatically forfeited. 

      Hotblaze1 wrote:
       And in order to win a Agni Kai, you need to burn the opponent, After Katara healed Zuko, he never gave her a burn...

      No, you don't - not necessarily. No one is denying that Zuko soundly defeated Zhao during their Agni Kai in S1, yet neither opponent suffered any lasting injury. Certainly, Zhao didn't. 

      Off the top of my head, we saw three Agni Kai in the series: (1) Zuko v. Ozai(flashback); (2) Zuko v. Zhao, and (3) Zuko v. Azula.

      The ONLY ONE of those three in which the loser suffered any kind of long-term injury is Zuko v. Ozai, which is the only one in which Zuko specifically refused to fight, and was mutilated for it by his father(who would have either mutilated or killed him no matter what happened anyway).

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    • According to the Agni Kai page, the Nickelodeon site's explanation of Agni Kai included a phrase that it was won when one opponent burned the other. It is possible that Zhao received a minor burn when he was blown on his ass, as it doesn't say the burn has to be serious.

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    • Huh. That's interesting. I must've missed that. Okay, I'll withdraw that comment then.

      That said, unless Nick's site or any other source stated otherwise, I still think Agni Kai are supposed to be one-on-one, so I still stand by my opinion that Azula forfeited the duel the moment she attacked a bystander(Katara).

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    • It's a duel, so yeah, but it's not really specified what if any penalties there are for attacking a bystander.

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    • DrachenRitter42 wrote: Huh. That's interesting. I must've missed that. Okay, I'll withdraw that comment then.

      That said, unless Nick's site or any other source stated otherwise, I still think Agni Kai are supposed to be one-on-one, so I still stand by my opinion that Azula forfeited the duel the moment she attacked a bystander(Katara).

      Yep.

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    • Chi13i wrote:
      I would have to say that Zuko ultimately won the Agni Kai since Azula basically opted to break the duel to attack Katara.  As far as I know, an Agni Kai is specifically an honor match between two fighters, and like any other such competition, when you break the basic rules of the contest you effectively forfeit.  So when Azula decided "screw it" and attacked Katara, that was the end of the Agni Kai and Zuko effectively won by default.  Of course, by that point Azula was beyond caring or reason, and likely just thought to eliminate Zuko and Katara then and there, and the whole issue would be a moot point anyways.

      So, ultimately, Zuko won that Agni Kai due to Azula basically forfeiting the match, though he likely didn't feel terribly satisfied with his victory.

      True, but instead Zuko redirected the lightning into his chest. So as Katara had never been shocked with lightning, it wasn't an interference. And as he had been struck down. The Agni Kai ended and she was able to shoot Katara without there being any penalty or anything.

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    • if Azula saw the freed invasion force and Aang in the Avatar State, it might worsen Azula's mental breakdown.

      Aang would be well in control of the Avatar State, while Azula would be a frantic mess.

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