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  • Location: Royal Palace

    Scenario 1 Conditions
    korra(Book 1) & Mako VS. Zuko(Book 2) Azula(Book 2)

    - Korra can only firebend
    - Win by KO or Submission
    - No lightning

    Scenario 2 Conditions
    Korra(Book 2) & Mako Vs. Zuko(Post dragon training) & Azula(Book 3) Pre meltdown

    -Korra can only fire bend
    -Lightning on
    -Win by KO, Submission or Death

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    • Azula and Zuko FTW in both scenarios for one reason, Azula.

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    • AntJenkins wrote:
      Azula and Zuko FTW in both scenarios for one reason, Azula.

      azula is still better since she can still cheat cuz she is bad

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    • I think that Korra wins alone. Her firebending should be an even match for Zuko.

      Then, her waterbending can overpower or subdue Azula's firebending like how Katara has been able to do.

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    • but korra can only waterbend

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    • TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      I think that Korra wins alone. Her firebending should be an even match for Zuko.

      Then, her waterbending can overpower or subdue Azula's firebending like how Katara has been able to do.

      didn't you see the rules firebending only

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    • Zuko and Azula FTW!!! Azula, when not batshit crazy, would wipe the floor with Korra and Mako on her own but with Lil ol' Zuzu there they'd be so badass

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    • While Azula is a firebending protigy, the same could be said for Korra in terms of skill in that element. Zuko is most likely a better firebender than Mako. But if we're going on by teams, Korra and Mako may beat Zuko and Azula though a team work strategy that could protect them both. Azula and Zuko during book 3 had animity towards eachother and it's doubtful they could help eachother in battle in the same sense of Korra and Mako.

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    • you people are so naive azula can take them all alone only because of lighting mako can light bend but only do this once in a season and korra is just a fire bander not much katara capture azula due to her water bending korra is a water bender but it take a ot than water bending

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    • In scenario 1, I give it to Team LoK. Book 2 Zuko is too much of an angry jerk-face, and that'll bring his team down. Without lightning, I don't see Azula being able to put Korra down without a long, grueling fight--which is more than enough time for Mako to outwit and defeat Zuko, so they can double-team her.

      In scenario 2, Team ATLA takes it. Korra's firebending doesn't significantly improve between books 1 and 2, and Mako's still just Mako. Zuko, on the other hand, now has a much more fluid fighting style and a more mature and stable emotional state--put those together, and he can now stone-wall Mako. Korra lacks any defense against lightning, so once Azula starts tossing it around, she's finished. Mako's already at his limit holding off Zuko, so once Azula's freed up to attack him as well, Mako goes down. 

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    • Remotecat25 wrote:
      While Azula is a firebending protigy, the same could be said for Korra in terms of skill in that element. Zuko is most likely a better firebender than Mako. But if we're going on by teams, Korra and Mako may beat Zuko and Azula though a team work strategy that could protect them both. Azula and Zuko during book 3 had animity towards eachother and it's doubtful they could help eachother in battle in the same sense of Korra and Mako.

      Whatcha ya talkin' about? Zuko and Azula seemed like a pretty terrifying team in the Crossroads Of Destiny. They can defintely work together when they need to, and set aside differences for against a common enemy.

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    • Mako has a disadvantage in the first scenario due to not being able to use lightning, and he is by far the worst firebender in the fight. Zuko or Azula would take him out of the fight rather early and then they would gang up on Korra.


      In the second scenario he can shoot lightning an keep them at a distance since Zuko is the only one who can redirect it. I still think the ATLA team wins, just a litle harder.

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    • SaitamaBro wrote:
      Mako has a disadvantage in the first scenario due to not being able to use lightning, and he is by far the worst firebender in the fight. Zuko or Azula would take him out of the fight rather early and then they would gang up on Korra.

      I strongly disagree there. Zuko is the worst firebender here, by a slight margin. Mako's fighting style doesn't rely on the huge flamethrower attacks of traditional ATLA firebending, so it gives the impression of him being less powerful. BUT he displays greater agility, discipline, and precision than probably any other firebender in the series, and his attacks still generate as much concussive force as anything we've seen Zuko do. Basically, Mako is able to do more with less. Mako will absolutely run circles around this iteration of Zuko. 

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    • Mako's fighting style doesn't rely on the huge flamethrower attacks of traditional ATLA firebending

      While Zuko does use those kinds of attacks, he can also use fast punching movements[him vs Aang in Crossroads of Destiny], use fire knives, use swords together with firebending, and use break dancing moves with firebending.

      so it gives the impression of him being less powerful.

      Yes, it does. I also don't remember him doing anything like what Azula and Zuko does.

      BUT he displays greater agility

      Both Zuko and Azula showed more agility than him. I don't remember much of the show, so i just watched a compilation of Mako fighting, and he is slower than Zuko and Azula even when he uses his boxing style of firebending. By the time he shoots two balls of fire Zuko would have shot 5.

      discipline

      I have to agree with this one, though i don't think it extends to Book 3 Zuko or Azula.

      and precision

      I will need an example that is better than when Zuko shot the archer from the Rough Rhinos.

      than probably any other firebender in the series

      Hardly. You overestimate him a lot.

      and his attacks still generate as much concussive force as anything we've seen Zuko do.

      I will need some examples too of this.

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    • While Zuko does use those kinds of attacks, he can also use fast punching movements[him vs Aang in Crossroads of Destiny], use fire knives, use swords together with firebending, and use break dancing moves with firebending.

      And? He doesn't have his swords here, the break dancing has only been shown to be effective against undisciplined opponents (which you've conceded Mako isn't), he's NEVER landed a hit with the fire knives (and Mako shows he can also use them in book 3), and the rapid punches are exactly what Mako is most used to facing. Zuko may know more tricks, but none of them are actually going to help him here.

      Yes, it does. I also don't remember him doing anything like what Azula and Zuko does.

      "Impression" is the key word there. Or perhaps "illusion" would be better. He doesn't have to use the huge, exaggerated kung fu motions to get the same effect as Zuko and Azula, and that's where you're underestimating him. He's also sustained lightning blasts for much longer than Azula ever has, and fired them with a much shorter charge-up time.

      Both Zuko and Azula showed more agility than him. I don't remember much of the show, so i just watched a compilation of Mako fighting, and he is slower than Zuko and Azula even when he uses his boxing style of firebending. By the time he shoots two balls of fire Zuko would have shot 5.

      Pure and utter speculation my friend. Azula might be faster and is definitely more flexible, but Mako doesn't need to be faster--he just needs to be fast enough. And that's what his boxing style gives him: he can avoid anything they throw at him AND it allows him to maintain the balance and poise to immediately counterattack. That's what gives him the edge here.


      I have to agree with this one, though i don't think it extends to Book 3 Zuko or Azula.

      We're not talking about book 3 Zuko and Azula, so this point is completely moot.

      I will need an example that is better than when Zuko shot the archer from the Rough Rhinos.

      Literally every Pro-bending match. The groupings of Mako's shots are much more tightly placed than Zuko's. And you seem to be confusing accuracy with precision. They're two different things my friend. Look it up.


      Hardly. You overestimate him a lot.

      Perhaps, but I'm overestimating a lot less than you're underestimating him.

      I will need some examples too of this.

      Once again, literally every Pro-bending match. His attacks produce enough concussive force to send opponents back multiple zones. That's at least the same distance as Zuko and Azula's best feats.

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    • I will need an example that is better than when Zuko shot the archer from the Rough Rhinos.
      Literally every Pro-bending match. The groupings of Mako's shots are much more tightly placed than Zuko's. And you seem to be confusing accuracy with precision. They're two different things my friend. Look it up.

      ac·cu·ra·cy'ˈakyərəsē/'noun :the quality or state of being correct or precise.

      'pre·ci·sion'prəˈsiZHən/'noun :the quality, condition, or fact of being exact and accurate.   

      They're literally synonoms.

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    • Dictionaries describe colloquial usage, which is often different from technical usage. This is why a dictionary will define a "theory" as a guess or a hunch, even though that's not even remotely close to the proper scientific definition. Wikipedia gives a pretty good synopsis of the technical definitions of accuracy & precision, but the short version is that accuracy is closeness to the desired value & precision is reliability.

      The analogy of a game of darts is often used, in which accuracy is described as how close a given dart is to the center while precision is to what extent the darts are focused around a certain spot as opposed to just randomly spread out. If you have a tight cluster of darts on the edge of the board, your aim is precise, but not very accurate. If your darts are located along the ring nearest to the bulls-eye but spread out, then your aim is relatively accurate but not very precise.

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    • ^^ This guy gets it.

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    • the break dancing has only been shown to be effective against undisciplined opponents (which you've conceded Mako isn't),

      Like Suki and the Rough Rhinos, one of wich is the best Kyoshi fighter and the other has the best weapon users of the FN including a Yuyan archer? Because those guys seem like they would be disciplined.

      He's also sustained lightning blasts for much longer than Azula ever has, and fired them with a much shorter charge-up time.

      You will then proceed to say we are not talking about Book 3 Zuko, but here you mention Mako's lightning wich should only be considere if we are talking about Book 3 Zuko. Nothing to add, just found it funny.

      Pure and utter speculation my friend.

      Mako had trouble keeping up with the Lieutenant. Korra, Zuko and Azula wouldn't have the same trouble, seeing how they are more agile than both Suki and Ty Lee. And about the punches, just see Zuko vs Aang in the Crossroads of Destiny, he shoots multiple fireballs in a speed i never saw Mako do.

      Azula might be faster and is definitely more flexible, but Mako doesn't need to be faster--he just needs to be fast enough.

      If you will just admit that what i said was right, why would you tell me what i said is speculation? I said Zuko and Azula are more agile than Mako, you said it's speculation and then says that Azula is faster.

      And that's what his boxing style gives him: he can avoid anything they throw at him AND it allows him to maintain the balance and poise to immediately counterattack.

      Considering both of them have taken faster and more agile oponents[without even using bending], i doubt he can avoid anything they throw at him.

      The groupings of Mako's shots are much more tightly placed than Zuko's.

      Only in fights where his opponents are standing still in one place, like probending matches or when they fought the RL and the RL was standing in the same place without being able to run. In those circunstances Zuko and Azula can also do the same, and Iroh did the same when Zhao killed the moon spirit, even better actually. If your opponent is moving around then attacking close to the same spot would be stupid, you don't see Zuko doing it because he normally fights Aang so he have to shoot a fireball here another there, another there, if he shoots them tightly like you say he would never hit Aang.

      That's at least the same distance as Zuko and Azula's best feats.

      Zuko defended Sparky Sparky Boom Man's combustionbending with his firebending. Both he and Azula have destroyed earthbending defenses with their firebending, as well as overpowered airbending and waterbending defenses. Mako could only break some small ones when he fought Ghazan, and they weren't even conected to the ground.

      We're not talking about book 3 Zuko and Azula, so this point is completely moot.

      Well, we actually are. You said:

      than probably any other firebender in the series,

      So you were talking in general, wich means this would also include Korra, Jeong Jeong, Iroh, Ozai, Sozin, Roku, Aang, etc. So yes, we are talking about Book 3 Zuko and Azula.

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    • Like Suki and the Rough Rhinos, one of wich is the best Kyoshi fighter and the other has the best weapon users of the FN including a Yuyan archer? Because those guys seem like they would be disciplined.

      The Rough Rhinos are fodder-level stormtrooper-type enemies. Suki at that point had never actually seen live combat. So yeah, despite all the drills they've run, neither of them had true combat discipline. The only other people it works against are Zhao (who is canonically stated to be undisciplined) and crazy Azula (Crazula?).

      You will then proceed to say we are not talking about Book 3 Zuko, but here you mention Mako's lightning wich should only be considere if we are talking about Book 3 Zuko. Nothing to add, just found it funny.

      This is in specific reference to your claim that Mako has NO power feats on the same level as Zuko and Azula. This directly refutes that. You opened the door on that one.

      Mako had trouble keeping up with the Lieutenant. Korra, Zuko and Azula wouldn't have the same trouble, seeing how they are more agile than both Suki and Ty Lee. And about the punches, just see Zuko vs Aang in the Crossroads of Destiny, he shoots multiple fireballs in a speed i never saw Mako do.

      The "pure and utter speculation" is in reference to your claim that Zuko can shoot 5 attacks in the same time Mako can shoot 2. Sure, Zuko did the rapid punch thing. But how hard do you really think that is to replicate? Seems like something any firebender could do if they wanted. And LOLZ at thinking Korra and Zuko are more agile than Ty Lee. Once again, Mako is fast enough to deal with it. That's all he needs. There comes a point when being the fastest is just overkill and a whole lot of wasted energy.

      If you will just admit that what i said was right, why would you tell me what i said is speculation? I said Zuko and Azula are more agile than Mako, you said it's speculation and then says that Azula is faster.

      See above.

      Considering both of them have taken faster and more agile oponents[without even using bending], i doubt he can avoid anything they throw at him.

      My point is that the way Mako dodges is more combatively viable than the way they dodge. He's in a better position to counterattack. In any case, how many times do Azula and Zuko actually land hits on those faster and more agile opponents when those opponents are actually trying to dodge? Almost never. They land hits when they're standing still (i.e. Aang on the drill) or when they're rushing in to attack (i.e. Suki with her katana).

      Only in fights where his opponents are standing still in one place, like probending matches or when they fought the RL and the RL was standing in the same place without being able to run. In those circunstances Zuko and Azula can also do the same, and Iroh did the same when Zhao killed the moon spirit, even better actually. If your opponent is moving around then attacking close to the same spot would be stupid, you don't see Zuko doing it because he normally fights Aang so he have to shoot a fireball here another there, another there, if he shoots them tightly like you say he would never hit Aang.

      You're confusing accuracy with precision still. Try again when you figure out the difference.

      Zuko defended Sparky Sparky Boom Man's combustionbending with his firebending. Both he and Azula have destroyed earthbending defenses with their firebending, as well as overpowered airbending and waterbending defenses. Mako could only break some small ones when he fought Ghazan, and they weren't even conected to the ground.

      And? Nothing you've said there actually disproves what I said. Mako hasn't broken bigger earth defenses because no one he's faced has used bigger earth defenses. As for breaking air and water defenses, not really that impressive when you consider air and water's lack of any real physical substance. The amount of force imparted when their attacks actually hit the opponent are not significantly different.

      Well, we actually are. You said:

      than probably any other firebender in the series,
      So you were talking in general, wich means this would also include Korra, Jeong Jeong, Iroh, Ozai, Sozin, Roku, Aang, etc. So yes, we are talking about Book 3 Zuko and Azula.

      In terms of mental sharpness and the ability to remain cool under fire, only Iroh, Jeong Jeong, and Roku are in the same league. So talking about Book 3 Zuko and Azula still really isn't relevant here, because in that regard Mako is still above them, and certainly above emo, pissy Book 2 Zuko.

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    • hands down azula. she's probably one of the best firebenders along side iroh in the whole series. mako is probably the worst lol 

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    • This is in specific reference to your claim that Mako has NO power feats on the same level as Zuko and Azula. This directly refutes that. You opened the door on that one.

      Doing lightning faster and lasting longer are speed and endurance feats though, not power.

      Seems like something any firebender could do if they wanted.

      And yet, how many do we see doing that? Mako certainly isn't one of them. Aside from you changing from "he is faster" to "he doesn't need to be faster".

      And LOLZ at thinking Korra and Zuko are more agile than Ty Lee.

      Ty Lee was in a stalemate against Suki in the Boiling Rock. Both Zuko and Azula easily pinned her down.

      Once again, Mako is fast enough to deal with it. That's all he needs.

      Didn't seem fast enough to the lieutenant, who Korra had no trouble dealing with.

      In any case, how many times do Azula and Zuko actually land hits on those faster and more agile opponents when those opponents are actually trying to dodge? Almost never. They land hits when they're standing still (i.e. Aang on the drill) or when they're rushing in to attack (i.e. Suki with her katana).

      I could just as easily say the same about Ty Lee dodging that girl and attacking her[the one who went running to attack her and Ty Lee dodged and punched her back]. Or about Aang in any of the various instances where he dodges an attack from a rushing opponent and hits the oponent. Nevermind Zuko fighting Aang and both dodging and attacking him, or Azula fighting both at the same time keeping them in check.

      You're confusing accuracy with precision still. Try again when you figure out the difference.

      Well, as i understood from both Neo's explanation and the wikipedia examples, precision would be basically hitting close to the same area, like this:

      150px-High_precision_Low_accuracy.svg.png

      But like i said, you can only get this result on an unmoving target. Zuko can also throw fireballs in this manner, and he did it against Aang, but they are useless in a fight in wich the opponent can just go to a completely diferent area. In this case, Aang would keep moving, so Zuko would need to shoot fire like this:

      150px-High_accuracy_Low_precision.svg.png

      Not because he can't do the other way, but because he can't hit Aang if he fires in the high precision way. It's easy for Mako though to do that, because his opponents in the probending matches have a limited space to move on and they have to share this really small space between three guys. But if i'm still not understanding it, i would like to know in what way you mean it, because this is as far as i could understand it.

      Mako hasn't broken bigger earth defenses because no one he's faced has used bigger earth defenses.

      Actually, he failed to break a bigger rock, and he just pushed Ghazan back a little.

      http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111183530/5318085-animation+121.gif

      Something on those levels though?

      In terms of mental sharpness and the ability to remain cool under fire, only Iroh, Jeong Jeong, and Roku are in the same league.

      You forgot Sozin, man.

      So talking about Book 3 Zuko and Azula still really isn't relevant here, because in that regard Mako is still above them

      Why? Book 3 Zuko was way calmer during fights than i've seen Mako be, the same goes for non crazy Azula, being able to remain calm even when she is surrounded by enemies.

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    • And LOLZ at thinking Korra and Zuko are more agile than Ty Lee.

      Ty Lee was in a stalemate against Suki in the Boiling Rock. Both Zuko and Azula easily pinned her down.

      Actually, Ty Lee only had trouble defeating Suki after Suki trained herself in prison. Suki became very agile after the Boiling Rock. She's proabably one of the most nimble characters on the show. 

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    • I don't remember her mentioning any training.

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    • SaitamaBro wrote:
      I don't remember her mentioning any training.

      It's been a while since I've watched The Boiling Rock, but If it wasn't directly mentioned than I'm pretty sure it was strongly alluded to? I don't think Kyoshi Warrior training involves jumping nimbly on people's heads? Ty Lee had diffculties taking her down, something that would've been quite easy back in Book 2.

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    • 1. Regardless of whether you classify Mako's lightning as speed/endurance feats or bending power feats, it still beats Azula.

      2. Making fire with a punch is literally the most basic application of firebending. Doing it really fast over and over again is not exactly a high-level, super-secret technique that only the elites could possibly hope to master. If anything, it's a good way to tire yourself out. Probably part of the reason why we never see anyone else (including Zuko) do it again.

      3. At no point did either Zuko or Azula ever fight Ty Lee. So this idea that they "pinned her down" is just false. Suki was able to challenge her in the end, but how Suki compares to Ty Lee isn't relevant to this discussion.

      4. He may not have dodged the Lieutenant, but he was still able to do fine against Ming-hua, whose spidery water tentacles allow her to move in ways Zuko and Azula could never hope to match.

      5. The accuracy vs precision thing. The point I'm making is a fighter needs to have both. Mako and Zuko have comparable levels of accuracy (Zuko maybe even has a slight edge), but Mako has shown much greater precision than Zuko. And Mako's edge in precision is greater than whatever edge Zuko may have in accuracy. That's what makes Mako better here. And this idea that you can't have precision against a moving target is just ludicrous. As long as you're hitting the same spot each time, you have precision. 

      6. The attack in that gif was honestly more smoke than bang. Can you be more specific about when/what episode you're getting his match-up with Ghazan from?

      7. I didn't forget Sozin. But where Sozin ranks on my list and why I rank him there really isn't all that relevant for this discussion. As for Book 3 Zuko, yes, he is more disciplined, but I still rate him about half a step behind Mako--he's closed the gap enough to make mental discipline a non-issue. With Azula, her mental state is just too big of a wild card for me to rate her toward the top. 

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    • Regardless of whether you classify Mako's lightning as speed/endurance feats or bending power feats, it still beats Azula.

      But you said this was in response to me saying he has no power feat comparable to theirs, so it isn't really regardless.

      Doing it really fast over and over again is not exactly a high-level, super-secret technique that only the elites could possibly hope to master.

      It does show Zuko being faster.

      If anything, it's a good way to tire yourself out.

      Good thing Zuko has a lot of endurance and could keep fighting Aang and later Katara without getting tired.

      At no point did either Zuko or Azula ever fight Ty Lee. So this idea that they "pinned her down" is just false.

      Good thing i never claimed they pinned Ty Lee down, just Suki.

      Suki was able to challenge her in the end, but how Suki compares to Ty Lee isn't relevant to this discussion.

      Like i pointed earlier, it does.

      He may not have dodged the Lieutenant, but he was still able to do fine against Ming-hua

      By do fine you mean she had an easy time beating him in their first 1x1 fight, and in the next he ran from her and shot lightning at her? He dodged her as much as he dodged the lt. he dodged one or two times and then got hit, then in their last fight he dodged one or two times and shot lightning at her. It hardly says anything about his agility, even Katara could dodge twice before being hit by Ty Lee, that doesn't mean she was doing just fine against her. And Mako being able to dodge her some times before being hit doesn't mean he is more agile than Zuko and Azula.

      And this idea that you can't have precision against a moving target is just ludicrous. As long as you're hitting the same spot each time, you have precision.

      Well, you can keep hitting the same spot, but if the target moves you will just never hit him. I will need some example of Mako's precision, you can just say a battle and what i should look for and i will find it.

      The attack in that gif was honestly more smoke than bang.

      Yes, i suppose it was a very powerful smoke since it threw Zuko away even though he was not even close to where the fire hit.

      Can you be more specific about when/what episode you're getting his match-up with Ghazan from?

      The one he kills Ming Hua. I guess i can post a video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ec18eL4sSk

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    • 1. It still points to Mako having greater prowess as a bender than Azula in at least 2 areas. 

      2. It also shows Zuko making a tactically reckless decision and not getting anything out of it. 

      3. Exact quote from you: "Both Zuko and Azula easily pinned her down." The grammatical antecendent to the "her" in that sentence is Ty Lee (i.e. Ty Lee was the subject of the sentence immediatly prior to that). Sorry for reading sentences with the conventional rules of English grammar. In any case, Suki vs Ty Lee is still not terribly relevant because the Suki was not weighed down by armor and also just better equipped to handle Ty Lee's fighting style (not necessarily her agility).

      4. You've given absolutely no reason for me to believe that Zuko or Azula would do any better against Ming-hua than Mako did. Mako being able to dodge 8+ tentacles without getting hit a single time is pretty impressive.

      5. I've already given you an example and you're still arguing accuracy instead of precision. Whether a target is moving or not has absolutely no bearing on precision, only accuracy. You clearly just don't understand any of this.

      6. I suppose it's impossible for Zuko to have thrown himself to the ground to avoid any shrapnel that might be flying his way? Because that smoke cloud was at least 3 times bigger than the actual blast.

      7. Still knocks Ghazan (who was actively blocking) flat on his ass. Later on in that same fight he blows up another earth shield and sends Ghazan skiddnig about a meter down the slope. I would expect pretty much the same from either Zuko or Azula. 

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    • It still points to Mako having greater prowess as a bender than Azula in at least 2 areas.

      Yep, in two areas of lightning generation.

      It also shows Zuko making a tactically reckless decision and not getting anything out of it.

      Not reckless. As i said he didn't get tired and could keep fighting for quite some time. He must have more endurance than Mako too i guess.

      The grammatical antecendent to the "her" in that sentence is Ty Lee (i.e. Ty Lee was the subject of the sentence immediatly prior to that).

      Nah, i was talking about Suki. Otherwise why would i use her to compare Ty Lee and Zuko/Azula?

      In any case, Suki vs Ty Lee is still not terribly relevant because the Suki was not weighed down by armor

      It's light armor, it doesn't really hinder her movements.

      and also just better equipped to handle Ty Lee's fighting style

      Wich means Ty Lee couldn't deal with her like Azula and Zuko could.

      Mako being able to dodge 8+ tentacles without getting hit a single time is pretty impressive.

      Dodged twice and shocked her. Not impressive, even more so if you consider the fact that in an earlier fight when she only had 2 tentacles he got owned pretty easily. Had the fight lasted a little longer he wouldn't be able to keep dodging as evidenced by their earlier fight. Zuko also has his own fire tentacles.

      I've already given you an example and you're still arguing accuracy instead of precision.

      You said every probending match, i'm asking an example of Mako's precision, an specific one.

      You clearly just don't understand any of this.

      And you have yet to show an example of it. When you asked i provided a video for you, and even a gif without you asking. Can you just give me an example instead of dismiss it with "you simply don't understand"?

      6. I suppose it's impossible for Zuko to have thrown himself to the ground to avoid any shrapnel that might be flying his way? Because that smoke cloud was at least 3 times bigger than the actual blast.

      You can see in the gif that the smoke spreads through the place and Zuko is running, then he is thrown to the ground when a following fire comes.

      Still knocks Ghazan (who was actively blocking) flat on his ass.

      In Crossroads of Destiny, Azula knocks Aang more than just a meter when he is going at her with a crystal armor, so it not only defeated the armor, but defeated his momentum and threw him a fer dozen meters back.

      Later on in that same fight he blows up another earth shield and sends Ghazan skiddnig about a meter down the slope.

      It's a group attack between Bolin and Mako, Bolin is even doing bending motions. Funny enough, i watched the video in slower speed and the smaller rock Mako broke was also an attack he did together with Bolin.

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    • I've never heard of the target in the accuracy/precision analogy being a moving one, but I imagine it wouldn't matter, because the point of precision is the reliability of the measurements (or in this case, the attacks). To be precise, they just have to have strong inter-relationship.

      If the target is moving & you still get the below pattern, yes you're technically striking different areas of space, but your measurements are still reliable, which is the key thing.

      150px-High_precision_Low_accuracy.svg.png

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    • So in that case it's about hitting in the same place in the body of the opponent?

      The way it was worded["tightly placed"] makes me think he shoots fireballs close to each other, but we see Zuko doing the same thing. He shoots various fireballs all going to the same target and direction, wich i suppose it's a precision thing sinc they are all hitting the same spot again and again.

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    • Precision is basically that you can reliably fixate on a point, though it doesn't really matter whether that point is moving or not, other than how difficult it is to maintain precision. Accuracy is how close that point is to the desired point.

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    • Sorry this response is a little late, but busy work week.

      The Agility Argument--Mako beat Ming-hua without taking a single hit. And you're basically trying to say that this isn't a legit agility feat because Ming-hua would have hit him if Mako hadn't won the fight. That's completely idiotic. It's like saying a baseball pitcher didn't do his job right because he threw a no-hitter. In that fight, Mako completely owned her from start to finish.

      The Precision Argument--Nickelodeon's copyright lawyers seem extra protective of the Pro-bending fights on Youtube, so the only things there are gameplay things from the LoK videogame. But if you actually watch the full episodes, every single one of Mako's attacks in episode 2 goes to the center of the opponent's sternum--he's even got attacks curving to hit that same spot, but from a different angle.

      The Concussive Force Argument--The gif shows Zuko starting to dive before the fire (what little there is) comes on-screen. Aang's earth armor is not an active block. That's kind of the definition of armor: it provides passive protection. And really, the presence of armor wouldn't significantly impact how far he's thrown, just how burned he would be underneath--Azula's attack still imparts the same amount of force regardless. 

      With Ghazan, you're right, the second attack did have Bolin following up with a boulder strike--I missed that the first time I watched. Mako breaks the guard, but it's Bolin's attack that sends him flying. But the first time Ghazan blocked? Nope. That's all Mako, Bolin's just standing there with his arms out wide looking like a happy moron. Either way, in both situations, we have Mako breaking through Ghazan's guard while he's actively blocking. 

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    • And you're basically trying to say that this isn't a legit agility feat because Ming-hua would have hit him if Mako hadn't won the fight.

      I'm saying that all Mako did was run in a straight line without looking back most of the time, and that in their other fight he was easily subdued after some time. And that him dodging her like that doesn't show he is more agile.

      But if you actually watch the full episodes, every single one of Mako's attacks in episode 2 goes to the center of the opponent's sternum--he's even got attacks curving to hit that same spot, but from a different angle.

      He does do that in the second fight whe he's with Korra, but every single one of them? You mean all of them that didn't right?

      http://imgur.com/a/ginPK

      Can you see the images? Tell me if you can't. From nine attacks that were fully visible when they hit the target, five are aimed at the area you said, the other four being aimed at the head or the feet. This is from the first fight btw.

      And really, the presence of armor wouldn't significantly impact how far he's thrown, just how burned he would be underneath--Azula's attack still imparts the same amount of force regardless.

      The armor puts more weight, wich increases his momentum since he is moving towards Azula at high speeds. Azula not only broke his momentum but also sent him flying dozens of meters, way more than one or two meters.

      Either way, in both situations, we have Mako breaking through Ghazan's guard while he's actively blocking.

      We see Mako trowing back a rock that Ghazan is holding up in the air, something Zuko did without using firebending, just by kicking it. And then we see Mako break through Ghazan's defense twice with Bolin's help. First when Gazan makes a rock wall and then when he raises a small rock to defend against their attack.

      Sorry this response is a little late, but busy work week.

      As you can see i'm not in a position to say anything about it.

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    • I'm saying that all Mako did was run in a straight line without looking back most of the time, and that in their other fight he was easily subdued after some time. And that him dodging her like that doesn't show he is more agile.

      What it does show is that he is capable of avoiding a high-volume, multi-angular onslaught. If he can do this against Ming-hua, he can do this against Zuko and Azula.

      He does do that in the second fight whe he's with Korra, but every single one of them? You mean all of them that didn't right?

      http://imgur.com/a/ginPK

      Can you see the images? Tell me if you can't. From nine attacks that were fully visible when they hit the target, five are aimed at the area you said, the other four being aimed at the head or the feet. This is from the first fight btw.

      I can see the images, but that's the problem: the still images don't actually show the full contact. You really need to see the full video to get the idea. The pictures that make it look like he's aiming for the head HAVE to be wrong, because we know that head-shots are illegal for firebenders. For the ones that look aimed at the feet, that's still not a knock against Mako's precision: if he's intentionally aiming for the feet, that's an accuracy issue, not a precision issue. I don't remember which fight from episode 2 it is now, but the one I'm thinking of has every single shot to the chest--which displays both high accuracy AND precision.

      The armor puts more weight, wich increases his momentum since he is moving towards Azula at high speeds. Azula not only broke his momentum but also sent him flying dozens of meters, way more than one or two meters.

      And none of that affects Azula's output.

      We see Mako trowing back a rock that Ghazan is holding up in the air, something Zuko did without using firebending, just by kicking it. And then we see Mako break through Ghazan's defense twice with Bolin's help. First when Gazan makes a rock wall and then when he raises a small rock to defend against their attack.

      Zuko kicking anything is not relevant to anything here. We see Mako rip Ghazan's first rock, which Ghazan is actively holding in place out of his grip, then we see Mako slice through the rock wall. I don't see Bolin doing anything to help with that. Then we see Mako's fireblast take out Ghazan's other rock after Bolin's attack failed to do so. Mako's doing just fine.

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    • What it does show is that he is capable of avoiding a high-volume, multi-angular onslaught.

      By running in a straight line without looking back to see the attacks coming? Looks more like luck to me.

      And none of that affects Azula's output.

      Aside from showing more power than Mako ever did?

      I can see the images, but that's the problem: the still images don't actually show the full contact.

      By full contact you mean hitting? Because some do while the others were dodged.

      The pictures that make it look like he's aiming for the head HAVE to be wrong, because we know that head-shots are illegal for firebenders.

      http://i.imgur.com/q13YZYA.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/lbhRrQS.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/L4lvKyI.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/eMAEc7Q.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/pSTFtzs.jpg

      In these instances both dodged by moving their head down a little, if it was aimed at their torso it would hit their faces.

      http://i.imgur.com/9g659Xd.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/ZB6udui.jpg

      You can see the fire passing right next to his head.

      http://i.imgur.com/HiRSd8M.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/qbQqgMS.png

      http://i.imgur.com/fPtCJvk.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/L0R9OPd.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/wKVHnyL.jpg

      Here it's the same, but this time it's Mako who dodges attacks that were clearly going for his head, so it's not just him. You can still see them right?

      If it is illegal, then either the judge didn't care or they changed rules later, but it's clear that those hits were going for the head.

      For the ones that look aimed at the feet, that's still not a knock against Mako's precision: if he's intentionally aiming for the feet, that's an accuracy issue, not a precision issue.

      But you said all of them were aiming at the same spot.

      I don't remember which fight from episode 2 it is now, but the one I'm thinking of has every single shot to the chest--which displays both high accuracy AND precision.

      The fight i'm using in the images is the one Korra is cheering for them, the one you are talking about is the one Korra becomes a part of their team, wich i indeed watched and said it does happen the way you described it.

      then we see Mako slice through the rock wall. I don't see Bolin doing anything to help with that.

      http://i.imgur.com/B1MsK6n.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/kTP5LZU.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/3yro2zU.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/5Trr7VK.jpg

      Bolin Comes punchin after Mako faile to break the rock wall, breaks it and prepares another attack.

      Then we see Mako's fireblast take out Ghazan's other rock after Bolin's attack failed to do so.

      http://i.imgur.com/gZK2aRp.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/oEq77ZY.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/7ZbMwAp.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/7Zq6gjo.png

      Bolin's attack destroys the rock, Mako's attack send Gazhan back a step, then Bolin's other attack sends him flying. The only time Mako hits Ghazan's Defense alone is when he sends the rock back a little the first time he attacks, all the others he had a big help from Bolin to do any kind of damage.

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    • 1. Mako's not only running in a straight line, he's weaving around pillars and somersaulting away. There's really no reason to attribute any of his dodges to luck.

      2. Even if he is aiming for the head, IT STILL DOESN'T REFUTE MY POINT ABOUT PRECISION. If he intentionally decideds to aim for the head, that's accuracy, not precision. If other subsequent shots are still going for the head, that's precision.

      3. Your images from the Ghazan fight don't support your narration of events at all. With the rock wall, the wall is already coming down before Bolin ever does anything. On the smaller rock, Bolin's attack just crashes into the rock, but the rock stays intact; the second image you posted pretty clearly indicates that it was Mako's attack that actually destroyed it. You can actually see that clearly from the video. 

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    • 1. Mako's not only running in a straight line, he's weaving around pillars and somersaulting away. There's really no reason to attribute any of his dodges to luck.

      He does one somersault after running in a straight line, then he ends up in a sitting position while Ming Hua misses an attack without him even moving, he then goes running in a straight line again and jumps on the pillars and shocks her. We can say that his "dodges" are due to Ming Hua being bad at hitting people instead of being luck, but running in a straight line and having your enemy miss you without you even trying to move doesn't show him having a greater agility than Zuko or Azula.

      http://i.imgur.com/nGih8ko.png

      http://i.imgur.com/FLlUVdX.png

      Great dodging ability.

      Even if he is aiming for the head, IT STILL DOESN'T REFUTE MY POINT ABOUT PRECISION. If he intentionally decideds to aim for the head, that's accuracy, not precision. If other subsequent shots are still going for the head, that's precision.

      But like i said before, both Zuko and Azula do that. In the catacombs fight Zuko shoots four blasts that hit the same place, and in The Chase Azula aims at the middle of Zuko and Aang's chest all the time.

      With the rock wall, the wall is already coming down before Bolin ever does anything.

      The blast only breaks it at the top, it only really comes down with Bolin's attack.

      On the smaller rock, Bolin's attack just crashes into the rock, but the rock stays intact; the second image you posted pretty clearly indicates that it was Mako's attack that actually destroyed it.

      http://i.imgur.com/AZw9Mzv.png

      It was already broken before Mako's attack hit. Even if it broke further, that's hardly a good feat for Mako considering Bolin's attack had broken it first.

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    • Try looking at the fight again. His "running in a straight line" is at most three steps that take him out of the line of fire and closer to the pillars, which he had already identified as the tactical highground. His somersault allows him to avoid at least two attacks that were already coming his way--too late for Ming-hua to change their vector, leading it to make it look like she completely missed him while he was sitting on his ass. Then he moves just a couple yards to the side, avoiding a few more attacks, and ends it. This isn't luck or Ming-hua being as accurate as a stormtrooper--this is Mako simultaneously dodging attacks and moving the fight to the place of his choosing. He out-wits her and out-manuevers her at the same time.

      Zuko's four blasts (I assume you mean the rapid-fire punches?) do NOT hit the same place--he's pivoting while he fires them, and misses every single time. That's the textbook definition of poor accuracy AND poor precision. Azula in The Chase has shots going all over the place: head, feet, chest, waist, and some that aren't even shots at all. Once again, textbook definition of poor precision.

      Except that Bolin doesn't attack at all until after the wall is already down.

      That image doesn't show a broken rock. At all. The actual video doesn't show any part of that rock breaking off and falling to the ground. Mako's fire attack destroys it. Plain and simple. You're trying to manipulate the fight into images that support your claim, and it's still not working. 

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    • His "running in a straight line" is at most three steps that take him out of the line of fire and closer to the pillars, which he had already identified as the tactical highground.

      He is still running in a straight line, tactics or not. How does that make him more agile again?

      Zuko's four blasts (I assume you mean the rapid-fire punches?) do NOT hit the same place--he's pivoting while he fires them, and misses every single time.

      http://i.imgur.com/jGsbR59.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/9XgCZFX.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/gZBFP0S.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/4I7sLt9.jpg

      http://i.imgur.com/zXknA7l.jpg

      Of course he is missing Aang by a lot in all of them, but the attacks are still hitting the same general area. So not a lack of precision.

      Azula in The Chase has shots going all over the place: head, feet, chest, waist, and some that aren't even shots at all. Once again, textbook definition of poor precision.

      What was it you said again?

      If he intentionally decideds to aim for the head, that's accuracy, not precision. If other subsequent shots are still going for the head, that's precision.

      Anyway, you can see when she is in the middle of fighting Zuko[at her left] and Aang[at her right] right before Aang enters that house missing the floor where Zuko falls, she is shooting Zuko at the place and she is constantly aiming at Aang's chest.

      Except that Bolin doesn't attack at all until after the wall is already down.

      Okay, i watched it again and this is true, i conced here.

      That image doesn't show a broken rock.

      Look at it again, When Bolin's attack hit, Ghazan's rock has multiple cracks in it and it changes shape completely. It is broken, and it is not a manipulation, you can see that the shape of the rock changes together with there being cracks on it.

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    • He is still running in a straight line, tactics or not. How does that make him more agile again?

      His ability to avoid these attacks, which are coming in a much higher volume and from more different angles than either Azula or Zuko are capable of doing, is evidence that he can avoid anything Azula or Zuko throw at him. Add the bonus of him moving to control the terrain, and this turns into a fight akin to Obi-Wan vs Anakin in Revenge of the Sith. "It's over Zuko! I have the high ground!"

      Of course he is missing Aang by a lot in all of them, but the attacks are still hitting the same general area. So not a lack of precision.

      I think I was thinking of a different instance, but that would show precision: a single instance of it. Mako's entire MO is precision. Zuko's is not.

      What was it you said again?

      If he intentionally decideds to aim for the head, that's accuracy, not precision. If other subsequent shots are still going for the head, that's precision.
      Anyway, you can see when she is in the middle of fighting Zuko[at her left] and Aang[at her right] right before Aang enters that house missing the floor where Zuko falls, she is shooting Zuko at the place and she is constantly aiming at Aang's chest.

      She clearly isn't aiming at his chest. She has shots at ankle-height, some angling up at his head, and some at chest height. If Aang's chest is what she is actually intending to hit, then that's poor precision.

      Look at it again, When Bolin's attack hit, Ghazan's rock has multiple cracks in it and it changes shape completely. It is broken, and it is not a manipulation, you can see that the shape of the rock changes together with there being cracks on it.

      I still see nothing that looks like a crack. It bends inward a little at impact, but it looks to me like it still has substantially the same mass and structural integrity as before. And then the rock doesn't exist after Mako hits it.

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