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  • 1) The character changes. First off, Zuko is a crazy war obsessed nutter again. This really upset me because at the end of TLA Zuko's character definately semmed like he had matured from that anal teenager into a fully realized firelord who wanted to make the world a better place. But for some reason they thought it was neccessary to take Zuko back to his old roots so they could jam in the fact that he is CLEARLY confused and is struggling to do the right thing (yeah, because we clearly haven't gotten enough of that in the past) and go through yet another character arc where he realizes his mistake and tries to better himself in the future. I'm sorry, what was the whole point of having him go back to an angry jerk again? we get it, Zuko has struggled in the past. But by the time TLA tv series was over he seemed totally matured and was ready to live a life of blissful happiness and unquestionable honor as the firelord. So why did they make him convert back? I don't really see the reason why to be honest. Just more dumb character arc like we've never gotten before (sarcastically) and Ozai I thought was especially bad. He went from being a ruthless tyrant to somewhat like Iroh... While Zuko was visiting him in prison he asked him to bring him some tea and he even gave him good advice on how to be firelord. He told him that he can do what he wants because he's firelord. I would of expected Ozai to be more like "You don't know what kind of power you harness and you are yet to realize the responsibility of being the firelord. Even now you are still weak. You do not deserve this power" now doesn't that sound more like Ozai?

    2) Potential drama? Okay, so it's obvious that Bryke is teasing us with this whole Mai and Zuko thing. And again, I ask. What was the point of making them break up again? When ATLA ended I really thought that Zuko and Mai were going to have their happily ever after. And I was happy for them despite my deep hatred for those two being together (I was a huge Zutara fan back then) so having them break up should of somewhat, redeemed them in the eyes of myself and other Maiko fans at least. But honestly, it makes me even more frustrated because I know that they are going to get back together eventually (even if they end their relationship permanently on a positive note) and it will be another dumb character arc moment when they realize how much they mean to each other and how they make each other happy. I mean come on, how many times do you think your gonna fool us with this? it's obvious that they care about each other so why don't you just make them get married already? Why do you feel that more teen drama is neccessary? It's not intriguing in the slightest it's just causing more senseless drama across the fanbase. Which yeah, I get it... is kinda the point. Well done guys, someone oughtta give you guys a tediously obnoxious producer award.

    3) Characters are somewhat uninteresting in this, reading perhaps? So yeah, if your gonna go through the effort of bringing these characters back one last time then why couldn't you make another series or why couldn't you extend the original series for a couple of more episodes? or even brought them back in flashbacks like in LoK? Maybe it's just me but I really don't like the fact that they continued the original series in reading format. It does somewhat, take alot of the humor out of what made the original show so fantastic and one of the greatest tv series of all time. Sokka still has his sense of humor, great... But what's the point if you can't hear Jack DeSenna's hilarious voice dubbing Sokka's likable sense of humor? It just takes away a huge element of what made Sokka so funny and likeable in the show. But I do give him some credit though, at least he was funnier than the 2010 film.

    4) There's no reason for them to exist. When ATLA ended, that was it. Aang and everyone elses story was complete. We know that he formed republic city after the 100 year war was over from watching LoK. There is no reason to carry on what was already perfect. The tv series ended on a positive note like all good tv series should. So when I saw Katara and Aang kiss in the end, I genuinely believed that they would be together forever. And I was right, same with Mai and Zuko when they got back together in the end. But apparently not :/ we don't need to know every single detail about what happened when the war was over. That's just backstory, and the whole purpose of backstory is that well, it's pretty much pointless xD. Everything was summed up in the very beginning of LoK. They explained in the very beginning that after the war was over Aang and his friends formed republic city so that all nations could live together and even non-benders. That's all you need! You don't need to justify every little detail that happened in the process of the harmony restoration or the process of bulding republic city. I do believe there are some redeeming qualities of these comic books. The first is that we do find out what happened to Zuko's mom and it's about god dam time too! But why couldn't you have put that in the show like I mentioned before? If it's the limited episode quantity your worried about then why couldn't you of just cut a few other episodes out? I can think of a few. Like, Appa's lost days, Tales of Ba Sing Se and all of that other stuff. We don't need to know every single detail of what happened to the Avatar's bison when he got captured but we DO need to know what happened to Zuko's mother!!

    So yeah, this is just a few reasons why I hate the promise trilogy and most of the other comics too. Keep in mind that these are my own thoughs so don't go ape shit if you don't agree with me xD

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    • 1) Zuko had death threats from OZai's cronies, of course he has every right to be paranoid and sleepless. 

      Zuko being a conflicted person is in his nature. This shouldn't surprise you, since at the time, the only closure he thought would happen a comic trilogy later. At the time, his inner turmoils kept barbing him even after he ascended to the throne. I didn't see Zuko's portrayal as out of character. Instead, the comics continued to highlight Zuko's inner turmoil (struggling to do the right thing, which is something he already was doing since the cartoon started, and finding closure by finally deciding to actively search for his mother).

      2) I could care less of Zuko and Mai's breakup, as it was seen in future storyboard they seemed to get back together and had a daughter (who is now the current Fire Lady). This shipping thing, well, as absurd as it is sometimes, we mustn't forget that our characters are created to be humans with feelings. Sure, the love trinagle BS was thrown to us time and time again, but I think the breakup was realistic in terms of how relationships would go in real life. Zuko's inner turmoil finally took a toll on Mai, and in real life, which some couples also face: with one person not being able to read the other well. Mai did not experience losing a parent that did care for her, and they weren't able to meet halfway, and she did not have an abusive father (I would protest that Mai's father had several shortcomings). Though Mai's parents were politicians bent on staying in power and did not have time for her, Zuko's case is much different. Being in a relationship is meeting halfway, and the two (at the time) weren't able to achieve that because Mai did not seem to grasp yet how complex Zuko's life (as Fire Lord or otherwise) is. But given Mai's gesture in a comic "Rebound", Mai seemed to still have feelings for Zuko, and probably, Mai could still be open to understand what Zuko's facing, and reunite with him. 

      3. I would agree that The Promise was bland in terms of storyline, but I must say I think having a connection between Aang and Korra through the comics is a nice way to continue the universe we knew and loved. I don't think it's fan service (I define it as giving more to the fanbase with lackluster product, and Korra is clearly not subpar). 

      4. Clearly, you have to read the comics to know what happened to Ursa. Your emotions regarding the comics seem to come out of spite, and not really analyzing the message the comics were trying to show. It's just my two cents, and do go ape shit at me after reading this comment!

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    • IAmNothing712 wrote:
      1) Zuko had death threats from OZai's cronies, of course he has every right to be paranoid and sleepless. 

      Zuko being a conflicted person is in his nature. This shouldn't surprise you, since at the time, the only closure he thought would happen a comic trilogy later. At the time, his inner turmoils kept barbing him even after he ascended to the throne. I didn't see Zuko's portrayal as out of character. Instead, the comics continued to highlight Zuko's inner turmoil (struggling to do the right thing, which is something he already was doing since the cartoon started, and finding closure by finally deciding to actively search for his mother).

      2) I could care less of Zuko and Mai's breakup, as it was seen in future storyboard they seemed to get back together and had a daughter (who is now the current Fire Lady). This shipping thing, well, as absurd as it is sometimes, we mustn't forget that our characters are created to be humans with feelings. Sure, the love trinagle BS was thrown to us time and time again, but I think the breakup was realistic in terms of how relationships would go in real life. Zuko's inner turmoil finally took a toll on Mai, and in real life, which some couples also face: with one person not being able to read the other well. Mai did not experience losing a parent that did care for her, and they weren't able to meet halfway, and she did not have an abusive father (I would protest that Mai's father had several shortcomings). Though Mai's parents were politicians bent on staying in power and did not have time for her, Zuko's case is much different. Being in a relationship is meeting halfway, and the two (at the time) weren't able to achieve that because Mai did not seem to grasp yet how complex Zuko's life (as Fire Lord or otherwise) is. But given Mai's gesture in a comic "Rebound", Mai seemed to still have feelings for Zuko, and probably, Mai could still be open to understand what Zuko's facing, and reunite with him. 

      3. I would agree that The Promise was bland in terms of storyline, but I must say I think having a connection between Aang and Korra through the comics is a nice way to continue the universe we knew and loved. I don't think it's fan service (I define it as giving more to the fanbase with lackluster product, and Korra is clearly not subpar). 

      4. Clearly, you have to read the comics to know what happened to Ursa. Your emotions regarding the comics seem to come out of spite, and not really analyzing the message the comics were trying to show. It's just my two cents, and do go ape shit at me after reading this comment!

      There is not a position like fire lady.thе position fire lord is for both male and female rulers. And it is not confirmed that Mai is Izumi s mother.

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    • Am I the only one who thoroughly enjoyed reading The Promise? I didn't find the story bland in the least, quite the contrary - though I'm with Sokka on the whole Aang/Katara lovey-dovey stuff, other than that the fact is that the story gives us a look at the resolution of an issue that simply ending the War didn't solve - the Fire Nation colonies, which are only very briefly mentioned on a handful of occasions in the series, and the obvious difficulties presented by the fact that some of them have been in place since before the Hundred-Year War even began.

      And frankly, I have no problem with the fact that this is done via comics, because I don't think the medium itself has any inherent negative impact on how enjoyable the experience is. But of course I've been an avid reader pretty much since I learned how to read, so that may be just me.

      But I enjoyed it, I liked 90% of what it did, and while I have not read the subsequent trilogies, I cannot wait to do so.

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    • 1. Zuko was going through a lot during the Promise. He was conflicted about whether he was doing the right thing for his people or not. Thee change in personality you mention is solely because of that. As for Ozai, I think he was more or less trying to turn Zuko into another him, guide Zukot ot become the person he wanted him to be andthat was the reason for the advice. Considering how he snaps at Zuko once he begins to reject said advice, I'd say he's still in character.

      2. While I find the  drama pointless, it is a common way to get people more interested or get them to keep reading. I don't fault them for using the tactic, cliche as it is.

      3. It's not exactly an easy thing to make another series; they'd have to get the voice actors back and go through the various processes creating the cartoon would require. Making a comic instead is just easier

      4. There is 70 year gap between ATLA and LOK; it stands to reason there are more stories to be told between then and now. You don't like backstory? That's fine, some people just like things simplistic. Other fans, like myself, like to hear about these kind of things and like to how things got from point A to pont B. As for the Ursa thing, they didn't have time to put it in the show, I believe they were originally planning a tv movie or something but couldn't get it made, so they cover it in the comics

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    • DrachenRitter42 wrote:
      Am I the only one who thoroughly enjoyed reading The Promise? I didn't find the story bland in the least, quite the contrary - though I'm with Sokka on the whole Aang/Katara lovey-dovey stuff, other than that the fact is that the story gives us a look at the resolution of an issue that simply ending the War didn't solve - the Fire Nation colonies, which are only very briefly mentioned on a handful of occasions in the series, and the obvious difficulties presented by the fact that some of them have been in place since before the Hundred-Year War even began.

      And frankly, I have no problem with the fact that this is done via comics, because I don't think the medium itself has any inherent negative impact on how enjoyable the experience is. But of course I've been an avid reader pretty much since I learned how to read, so that may be just me.

      But I enjoyed it, I liked 90% of what it did, and while I have not read the subsequent trilogies, I cannot wait to do so.

      I agree, The Promise was great, The Search was even better, and The Rift is the best so far. I hope that the pattern continues, making Smoke and Shadow even better:)

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    • I've only read Promise so far, but if the others are that good, I can't wait :) !!

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    • I was not a big fan of "The Promise," but I like the others. I feel they all have varying degrees of "out of character," which seem to be due to a combination of not communicating the conflict very well & needing to drive the plot.

      The #1 example is Aang being willing to kill Zuko. Mike & Bryan actually signed off on that idea, because the fact that Zuko consents makes it a different issue as far as Air Nomad culture is concerned. The problem, of course, is that nobody EVER explained that in the ENTIRE run of "The Promise."

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    • 1. What did you expect? That after the war ended everyone was just going to be all sunshine and rainbows? I personally liked the fact that Zuko was conflicting with himself on the colony issue, it seemed to wrap the war that was such a dominant issue in the world of Avatar. 

      2. And after they got back together when the war ended, they would immediately get married and have baby Izumi. Sorry to disappoint, but such issues are common in a relationship. Plus, Mai and Zuko probably won't even get back together (my headcanon refuses it to happen). Like you, I am not a fan of too much drama in an relationship (unless it's done really well). So the writers better have a good reason for all this Maiko mess. 

      3. Meh. I mean, I personally prefer the fantastic voice acting and music in the animated series as opposed to just reading the comic, but it works. It works. Especially if you watch MotionComics. This is really more of a debate of personal expecations and preferences (basically every argument). The humour seems pretty good ("Uh, were you guys doing something else? Because all I did was bow").

      4. 70 years seems like a pretty long time. Aren't you at all curious about what happened during that time? How Zuko got his dragon? How bloodbending became so popular? How the United Forces came to be? 

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    • Mai and Zuko are getting back together in the next comic trilogy after North and South because their relationship (and other plot devices) was intentially left open only to be resolved later.

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    • I wasn't big on the Promise either, but I think part of the reason I felt less connected to the characters was the drawing style where they almost looked like the cartoon but not exactly... I guess they can't help it but it threw me off. I'd either like it to look more realistic/detailed, or just like the show. 

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    • Personally, I like reading the comics; I like having those few blanks between ATLA and TLOK being filled step by step, and honestly, I like that there's still some content I can look forward to, involving the characters I grew to love. I'm not saying they're perfect, but I still like them and they provide a few interesting details. Also, I feel like it creates a stronger connection between TLOK and ATLA, knowing a bit about their life after the 100-year-war and not just jumpin ahead 70 years with a few hints as to what they wer doing all that time. Of course, it's not necessary and both shows make perfect sense without it, but I think it's nice to have it.

      So, here we go:

      1.) I can see where you're coming from, but in my eyes, it's understandable that Zuko had his conflicts again. After a war like that and trying to deal with personal issues like how to deal with a family like his, it's only natural that there are conflicts, inner and outer ones as well. Also, it's one thing that he grew much more mature - but it's not like one just becomes the perfect firelord over one night, it takes time and a lot of struggle obviously, especially for someone like Zuko. Also, you mentioned Ozai's advice - I have to disagree with you on that one, I don't think that was good advice at all. He encouraged Zuko to believe being the firelord gives him the power and the right to decide what's right or wrong - which, for me, is obviously a bad advice coming from a selfish megalomaniac.

      2.) I've never really cared about this one. I can see why it would annoy people, but for me, it's rather indifferent. I like Mai and Zuko together and they oubviously mean a lot to each other, so I'll be happy if they end up together, but it's fine if they don't. The drama aspect of it doesn't really affect me.

      3.) I agree that it takes away from the original charm of the TV-show, the voice actors were great and of course a series is much more immersive for a lot of people than drawings/texts where are no movements or sounds, but I think there's no point complaining about it, really. I'm glad I can read more about the characters I love, and for me, it's sort of understandable that it's in the form of comics instead of another couple of episodes or so. They decided to leave the show as they did for a reason; it provided a satisfying end to Aang's tale, completing and closing an overarching storyline. When they decided to continue it nonetheless, I'm actually glad they chose a different platform - this way they still kind of left the original "legend" as it was, with its satisfying ending, and distinguished what came after, so it doesn't completely ruin the feeling of closure at the end of the series, if you want to have it ended there.

      4.) I have to agree and disagree with you on this one. You're right, they shouldn't necessarily exist; like I said, the original series had a satisfying end, it had its purpose - it told Aang's story. Although I really don't think backstory is pointless. Instead, I think it actually gives the whole world they created much more depth and detail. And The Tales of Ba Sing Se is actually one of my favourite episodes, despite the fact that it's just a filler. Some backstory can be nice, and interesting, if done well.

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    • The problem with trying to opine on the comics, I find, is that you can't necessarily disentangle the good parts from the bad parts.

      For instance, I think it's ridiculously stupid that they basically lifted a Scooby Doo plot for Smoke & Shadow, but that ridiculous plotline also gave us so much new information about the Fire Nation, both postwar & historically.

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    • The fact that Bryke are terrible at writting and the fact that most Atla series weren't write by them. That's why the series and the comics are so different.

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    • ^ oh snap :D

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    • I personally thought they took the drama want too far, especially on the parts of Zuko and Roku, in The Promise, but that the other comics have been big improvements, especially the rift.

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    • LORDPascal wrote: The fact that Bryke are terrible at writting and the fact that most Atla series weren't write by them. That's why the series and the comics are so different.

      1. Gene Yang writes the comics.

      2. Not only are Mike & Bryan involved with the creation of the show in general, they have writing credits on a number of fan favorite episodes, including the first 4, The Guru, & 3/4 of the series finale.

      3. Likewise with Legend of Korra. Even if you want to dismiss Book 1 entirely with some handwave about love triangles, which is the epitome of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, Mike is still credited for Enter the Void, Korra Alone, & others.

      This meme should just die. The tiniest amount of fact checking shows it to be pulled out of someone's ass.

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    • I agree with the Op. Gene Yang writes these stories quite badly and my major complaint is that they don't really bridge the gap between A:TLA and LOK the way they were supposed to.

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    • Just some interesting ideas I found on the internet and that I wanted to see:

      Ideas for ATLA:

       

      ·         “If we had another season then there would be more stuff about Iroh’s past” - Ehasz wanted to write a two-part flashback episode about Iroh’s transformation into the person he is today. It would feature the siege of Ba Sing Se, Lu Ten’s death, and his travels around both the mortal and spirit world.

      ·         “Toph fixing her own issues” - Toph learns to heal from the emotional abuse she endured from her parents and repairs their relationship. She needed some character development when it came to mellowing out her harsh personality. Katara’s motherly influence helped her but Toph needed to deal with the direct cause. Ehasz loves Toph (he basically created her) and was upset that she remained so static throughout the series. 

      ·         “I wanted to develop this subtle romance between two of the main characters but I don’t think Mike and Bryan would have been too happy about that.” - It’s pretty obvious what couple he is talking about with this line. Ehasz always wanted to make Zuko/Katara canon or at least develop it much more than what was shown in the actual series, but Bryke would fight with him about it. This was why the chance of Katara ending up with either Zuko or Aang was 50-50 even mid-way through the third season. Yes, this means the “Zuko was originally going to be the love interest for Katara” and “The writers and creators toyed with the idea of Zuko and Katara falling in love” Avatar Extras are completely true. The cancellation of the fourth season and Shyamalan’s complaints about how indecisive Bryke were about who Katara was going to end up with led the Nick execs to step in and push for Katara/Aang because that was what they concluded as being most suitable for young children. The resulting draft for the finale ended up with Katara/Aang and lot of people in the writing room were surprised since they believed Zuko/Katara was the better choice. Bryke wanted Katara and Aang to passionately kiss to symbolize a marriage and make them look “definite”. This is in contrast with Ehasz who just wanted a sweet scene near the end where Zuko and Katara talked about how much the world had changed to foreshadow a future between them.

      ·         Katara never ended up with Aang at the end of ATLA, and Mai never went back to Zuko.

      ·         Katara was going to express concern for Zuko being torn between his duties as Fire Lord and his desire to search for his mother. You know how Suki serves as Zuko’s confidant in the comics? That was intended to be Katara’s role. 

      ·         The Southern Water Tribe experienced the longest series of attacks from the Fire Nation. Zuko and Katara become political partners and work together to help end the animosity and repair relations between their two nations.

      ·         Just like how Zuko learned to appreciate the Earth Kingdom, he would learn to appreciate the Water Tribes. Katara also learns to respect the complexity of Fire Nation culture. There is no such thing as an “evil” nation.

      ·         Zuko was going to admit that nobody understood him like Katara did, and how he was grateful to have met her. Katara was going to say she felt the same way about him. Ehasz noted this was important because neither Aang nor Mai could understand Katara and Zuko like they did with each other.

      ·         Katara and Zuko begin to develop feelings for each other as they spend more time together but they attempt to deny this. Aang would start to suspect something but would tell himself he was just imaging things.

      ·         Aang would leave on a self-searching journey after feeling the consequences of energybending and getting jealous over how close Zuko and Katara had become. Both Zuko and Katara would be very confused about this situation since Aang is their good friend. They don’t want to hurt his feelings, but their bond is continually strengthening as well.

      ·         Katara might have used bloodbending again in the future. There’s no such thing as “evil” bending, it all depends on how the bender chooses to wield their powers. Maybe she could have used it for medicinal purposes.

      ·         Just like how Zuko learned to appreciate the Earth Kingdom, he would learn to appreciate the Water Tribes. Katara also learns to respect the complexity of Fire Nation culture. There is no such thing as an “evil” nation.

       

       

      Ideas for TLOK:

       

      ·         Thought overall they did a good job, but didn’t agree with all of their choices. Would have preferred a post-ATLA series featuring the Gaang, and if allowed to do both, do the post-ATLA before LoK. This way, it would bridge the gap better and fill in loose gaps (see below).

      ·         Was a little surprised by the way Aang’s adulthood was portrayed, and would have changed his characterization a bit. Was also surprised by the lack of Sokka and would have increased his role. Would give readers some information on side characters such as Mai, Suki, etc., and what happened to them. But that’s also due to his ideas for the comics.

      ·         Liked Korra’s character, but would have handled the romantic relationships differently. Specifically referenced the love triangle and wouldn’t do that. Wasn’t sure he would permanently keep the Spirit Portals opened. Also liked the equalist movement and would do more with that. Red Lotus was cool but surprised by air bending abilities due to HC. Was interested at the time to see more of Kuvira.

      ·         Mentioned that ship Bryke doesn’t care for, and would have explored this relationship in both post-ATLA and LoK, and potential consequences such as political stuff. We had a good laugh about that one. Giving more info and exploration about post-war Fire Nation was what he hoped Book 4 would do.

      ·         Asked about his thoughts on Toph’s portrayal (I don’t hold back, heh) and said his vision was different. Didn’t outright say he hated or disliked it, but definitely that his vision was different and wanted to touch on her overcoming her issues with parents before LoK and having positive but realistic relationship with own kids. Would have handled Suyin and Lin differently (felt it was the wrong direction).

      ·         Similar to his ATLA commentary on Iroh, would have explored more of Iroh’s influence on Zuko and Spirit World. More Gaang interaction during LoK events would have been nice. Katara in regards to healing and bloodbending would be altered- agreed she would be against bloodbending but liked to see her fight still.

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    • I think that they do best when they've got a writing team with veto power backing them up.  Nonetheless, most of the recent "Bryke can't write!" complaints seem to be from bitter Makorra holdouts who feel wronged by their OTP crashing and burning.  (Often, they try to spin this as proof that Bryke never do right by female characters...because Korra not ending up with Mako is somehow a slight to her.  Never mind that it generally seems to be Mako on whose behalf they're offended...but I digress.)

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    • Ugh, why does everything boil down to Zutara?

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    • Avatar Beta wrote:
      Ugh, why does everything boil down to Zutara?

      Because when it doesn't, it ends up boiling down to Makorra.  And even if Aaron Ehasz did 'ship Zutara but got overruled, that's hardly the "proof" that the pairing was ever seriously on the table, that Kataang only happened because of executive meddling, and so on as which it's being presented here.

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    • Avatar Beta wrote: Ugh, why does everything boil down to Zutara?

      I was just about to say that if anyone thinks I'm reading all of that elongated Zutara wank, they are quite mistaken. I don't necessarily disagree with the points that came before that, but I don't really feel a burning need to see them either.

      I think that they do best when they've got a writing team with veto power backing them up.

      Honestly, I'm not so convinced it matters. People tend to forget that they brought other writers on board during Book 2, which everyone hated. It certainly didn't stop things like the Red Lotus getting little backstory, or Kuvira existing. Seems to me more like a case of there being pros & cons to having other writers, & sometimes it works out, other times it doesn't.

      Nonetheless, most of the recent "Bryke can't write!" complaints seem to be from bitter Makorra holdouts who feel wronged by their OTP crashing and burning.

      Y'know, I think it comes in waves, whenever a significant section of the fandom is pissed off about something. Often that's shipping, though it's been other things. It seems like there are a few standby criticisms in general that people like to use to assign blame when they don't like something, & one is to always default to "bad writing."

      Which feeds into the myth of the author just sitting down & spinning their vision, so they are solely to be credited/blamed for anything. Of course, this neglects that even during Book 1: Air, they may have been the only credited writers, but there were still other people involved. Directors, for instance. When one of the "subordinate" writers seems to have a more favorable opinion of the hill they've chosen to die on than the main writers, I guess it becomes easy to create the narrative of the genuine talent being constrained by the hacks who get all the credit.

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    • IIRC?  The Ehaszs were the ones who basically came up with Toph as a proper character (she was originally going to be a beefy dudebro named Sud; Aaron re-imagined her as a tiny girl with the same personality, although I don't know if he was the one who had the idea to re-purpose Sud as a character from Roku's backstory) and vetoed the original love triangle plot idea (which was Aang/Katara/Sud; Zuko wasn't involved).  I'm not sure if they were also the ones who made Iroh a good guy (in the original series bible, he was deliberately sabotaging Zuko on Ozai's behalf, rather than being genuinely a sad old veteran with a life of regrets behind him) and came up with the characters of Mai and Ty Lee (if they did, one would think the Zutaras would hold that against them rather than all but deifying them; it remains that in said series bible, Zuko had an antagonistic brother instead and the other two dangerous ladies were not mentioned).

      And the reason people hated Book 2 wasn't because they brought other writers on board.  It was partly because of Studio Pierrot (which, admittedly, would have been unlikely to be an issue if everyone hadn't been spoiled by Mir already); partly because characterization got dubious in places (everyone was holding the stupid ball to make Mako look good for a while there); partly because Unalaq was a really inchoate and shallow arc villain (basically an Ozai expy making noises about spirituality); and partly because people saw the "Beginnings" arc as a retcon (for all that, as far as I'm concerned, it's really not that difficult to reconcile).  Oh: and the mess that was Beska.

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    • IIRC? The Ehaszs were the ones who basically came up with Toph as a proper character

      Yeah, but--wait, there's more than one? Well, anyway, I'm not denying that other writers can make useful contributions, I just don't think the Series Bible is necessarily what we would have seen if nobody else was involved. There are also certain pitfalls, like when someone has a genuinely terrible idea (the guy who suggested fartbending wasn't a writer, but it remains that they took feedback & it went horribly awry) or the Too Many Cooks in the Kitchen problem.

      And the reason people hated Book 2 wasn't because they brought other writers on board.

      I know, what I'm saying is that if Mike & Bryan are such terrible writers & getting other writers on board, particularly from the original show, was how the series got "fixed," you wouldn't expect all of those issues people took with the writing to be present.

      partly because people saw the "Beginnings" arc as a retcon (for all that, as far as I'm concerned, it's really not that difficult to reconcile).

      Which is odd, since most of Spirit's haters cite Beginnings as the exception. I had less problems with it as things were fleshed out, but I still maintain that the way Lion Turtle energybending works is stupidly arbitrary.

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    • Hey, I don't care about Zutara. But I do about the other ideas: Toph fixing her own traumas. Suki's character's development. Bloodbending for helping people. More airbenders in ATLA. Sub airbending techniques in ATLA. Good parenting in LOK. ...

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    • I'm not sure if you realize it, but about half of the ideas you cited are implicitly if not explicitly Zutara related. In fact, they read like most if not all of them come from the same source. As for the other things?

      As I said, maybe Toph's issues could have been handled differently, but I think The Rift did it well enough.

      What about airbending? Or Suki? Those points don't seem to mention the former, & the only time I see them mentioning the latter is excising her from a part she played in the comics for, what else, more Zutara.

      I take issue with how they explained--or, rather, didn't explain--it, but I agree with Mike & Bryan that Aang shouldn't be some perfect parent.

      To the notion of "medical bloodbending," I say, "Why don't they use swords in medicine? Don't they know that there's no such thing as an 'evil' tool? Sure, they already have tools designed for surgery that are much easier to use, but surely there's something Dr. Swordsman could do to help. And he'd look so cool."

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    • Thank you, Neo. That was just so eloquent. However, I should say that while I was surprisingly cool with the idea of Aang and Toph not being great parents(but still ones who tried their best!), I really hope Zuko was nothing less than an excellent Dad to Izumi and her possible siblings.

      The problem with bloodbending for good uses is that Katara can't do it all herself, which means they need to spread the knowledge, and I think there's just too high a chance of more Yakone's or even Zaheers finding out.

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    • In defense of the medical bloodbending thing: it actually could have potential medical applications (for physical therapy, CPR, and so on).  Nonetheless, it'd have to be limited to the most absolutely incorruptible of healers.

      That said: Zaheer couldn't do frick-all about bloodbending.  Dude's not a waterbender.

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    • LORDPascal wrote:

      Looked up the source of this copypasta, it's from a Tumblr user named Sithzutara; not a surprise considering all the Zutaran BS in there. Notice how they smugly assume the couple Ehasz was talking about must be Zutara and then go into the usual debunked claims about Zutara along with other baseless pro-Zutarian claims. That puts me off the whole thing,

      As for the other things, Toph fixed her relationship with her dad in the comics, Suki was never a major character, so it's understandable she didn't get a lot of focus, pretty sure Katara realized FN is not pure evil a long time, not sure why they'd do a focus on Iroh, though i'm not opposed to the idea. What's wrong with Toph having a harsh personality? Does everybody have to be sweet and saintly? (not that i mind that) Sometimes you need a little bluntness, and Toph provides that. I do agree that they could have shown more of the Gaang in LOK and handled the relationships better, but what exactly was wrong with Toph and Aang's characterizations? Nobody's perfect and even good people can make mistakes in things like parenting. The spirit portals being left open was fine by me. Not sure about the bloodbending

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    • I really hope Zuko was nothing less than an excellent Dad to Izumi and her possible siblings.

      I'm game for that, I think that would fit wonderfully into his character arc.

      In defense of the medical bloodbending thing: it actually could have potential medical applications (for physical therapy, CPR, and so on).

      There's not a lot I can see for it that healing or other techniques can't do, & even then, the problem is that it's implied to be inherently damaging to tissues. Which makes sense, because being moved around by your blood vessels (& interstitial fluid, but just go with it) isn't likely to be the best for your health.

      And Zaheer couldn't do frick-all about bloodbending. Dude's not a waterbender.

      I believe s/he meant people like Zaheer, though this isn't actually my problem. You can't really proliferate any medical technique without someone finding a way to abuse it. My issue is that I think the whole notion of "healing bloodbending" misses the point, that even if a bloodbender could figure out a way to use their abilities for healing, it's very unlikely they would run into a situation where it does the job better than something else.

      It kind of reminds me of those people who advocate for medical marijuana, only you can tell they're clearly only in it because they want to smoke a bunch of pot, even though taking THC in the form of a pill would likely be much more effective if you're taking it for some medical problem. Except I think there's a bit more evidence that marijuana has legitimate medicinal properties, & as far as I know, nobody's ever used it to snap someone's neck remotely.

      Looked up the source of this copypasta, it's from a Tumblr user named Sithzutara

      Who?

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    • I just made copy-paste. I end up there because of the critics. I don't care about zutara, but I do about Kataang. Although I like Kataang, it's true that Aang was attached to Katara because he lost his culture, so the idea of new airbenders seem interesting to me. If Zutara would have happen or not? I don't care.

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    • I love Toph but I feel sorry for her and I like the idea of her fixing her own issues. And the way they portrayed it in the rift looks like... wrong... to me.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      There's not a lot I can see for it that healing or other techniques can't do, & even then, the problem is that it's implied to be inherently damaging to tissues. Which makes sense, because being moved around by your blood vessels (& interstitial fluid, but just go with it) isn't likely to be the best for your health.


      I believe s/he meant people like Zaheer, though this isn't actually my problem. You can't really proliferate any medical technique without someone finding a way to abuse it. My issue is that I think the whole notion of "healing bloodbending" misses the point, that even if a bloodbender could figure out a way to use their abilities for healing, it's very unlikely they would run into a situation where it does the job better than something else.

      It kind of reminds me of those people who advocate for medical marijuana, only you can tell they're clearly only in it because they want to smoke a bunch of pot, even though taking THC in the form of a pill would likely be much more effective if you're taking it for some medical problem. Except I think there's a bit more evidence that marijuana has legitimate medicinal properties, & as far as I know, nobody's ever used it to snap someone's neck remotely.


      That's a pretty fair allegory. Yes, that is what I meant about Zaheer-a likes.
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    • We don't have a great tv seson 4, but instead we have shitty comics, what a shame.

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    • I just made copy-paste. I end up there because of the critics.

      I don't really understand why you didn't only keep the parts you wanted, but okay.

      And the way they portrayed it in the rift looks like... wrong... to me.

      Anything in particular?

      That's a pretty fair allegory.

      I'm gonna be a pedantic douche & point out that it's an analogy, an allegory is a kind of extended metaphor in the form of a story, & in a metaphor you don't explicitly say that you're making a comparison. Also, thanks.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      There's not a lot I can see for it that healing or other techniques can't do, & even then, the problem is that it's implied to be inherently damaging to tissues. Which makes sense, because being moved around by your blood vessels (& interstitial fluid, but just go with it) isn't likely to be the best for your health.

      Moving people around by it, no. A trained healer manipulating the patient's muscles on a more delicate scale as a form of physical therapy (or, say, performing cardiac massage) would be another matter. It's been established that there are limits to what healing alone can do (hell, it's possible that medical applications of bloodbending wouldn't even be thought of as bloodbending, due to the association of the term with violence and far less delicate work).

      I believe s/he meant people like Zaheer, though this isn't actually my problem.

      So when they said "Zaheer," they actually meant "Ming-Hua with more ambition and charisma." As in, anarchist troublemaker. That makes more sense.

      You can't really proliferate any medical technique without someone finding a way to abuse it. My issue is that I think the whole notion of "healing bloodbending" misses the point, that even if a bloodbender could figure out a way to use their abilities for healing, it's very unlikely they would run into a situation where it does the job better than something else.

      Only if we're talking about someone who's not also a trained healer who's using it to augment. For example, I stand by my hypothetical concerning physical therapy and emergency/triage work.

      It kind of reminds me of those people who advocate for medical marijuana, only you can tell they're clearly only in it because they want to smoke a bunch of pot, even though taking THC in the form of a pill would likely be much more effective if you're taking it for some medical problem. Except I think there's a bit more evidence that marijuana has legitimate medicinal properties, & as far as I know, nobody's ever used it to snap someone's neck remotely.

      Aside from how one would even know if someone's just on medical marijuana legitimately or just because they're a stoner?  (Seriously: I've seen "just a stoner" aimed at a guy who's disabled and smokes it to relieve chronic pain, on the grounds that he calls it "weed" and owns a few artsy pipes.)  Unless balanced out with some other chemical such as cannabidol, THC is going to be a narcotic in any form (and pills actually have a stronger effect on some). 

      Additionally: it's hardly unknown for people to deliberately and fatally OD others on entirely legit prescription drugs.

      QueenCeline wrote:
      Looked up the source of this copypasta, it's from a Tumblr user named Sithzutara

      Not surprised. I'm reminded of this blog post which was going around:

      “sorry for jumping in so late, but I was at an exclusive panel for LoK in Los Angeles after the end of the series, and yeah, Bryan and Mike stated that korrasami was only written seriously at the end of the 4th season so if you’re wondering if it looked like it was written like an afterthought, it’s because it was”

      Needless to say, the Makorra holdouts were lapping that up with the same level of eagerness.

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    • LORDPascal wrote: We don't have a great tv seson 4, but instead we have shitty comics, what a shame.

      What's wrong with the comics?

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    • QueenCeline wrote:
      What's wrong with the comics?

      The same thing that's "wrong" with Korrasami.  A few opinionated fans disapprove; therefore, it must be objectively bad.

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    • Don't take me wrong. I like atla and I'm in love with Korra's books 3 and 4. But the comics... meh, I don't like them. I would prefer to see the ideas I put above instead of the comcics (I don't care about zutara) They are just... not what I expected. The characters look so... different: zuko is not himself (I mean, c'mon, he cares about his father even if he is a total asshole; in every abusive relationship I have known, they still care for the other person... so suddenly zuko being angry because aang didn't killed Ozai........)(And the southern water tribe? ....) it doesn't quite fit with what I had in mind. And I don't care about Korrasami. For me, it's ok.

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    • Moving people around by it, no. A trained healer manipulating the patient's muscles on a more delicate scale as a form of physical therapy (or, say, performing cardiac massage) would be another matter. It's been established that there are limits to what healing alone can do (hell, it's possible that medical applications of bloodbending wouldn't even be thought of as bloodbending, due to the association of the term with violence and far less delicate work).

      Yes, healing has limits, but for bloodbending to be a viable alternative, it must first do something beyond the limits of healing, & second there must be no other technique that compensates for that limit at least as well. I don't see why those examples would be beyond the limit of healing, but even if they were, electrical stimulation would be even better than bloodbending because it only requires the right equipment. Only a highly skilled waterbender could use bloodbending to operate, & even then only during the full moon, Yakone notwithstanding.

      Aside from how one would even know if someone's just on medical marijuana legitimately or just because they're a stoner?

      I don't have to? I need not account for the motives of every individual weed smoker to know that there is a significant number who latch on to the medicine argument because they want an excuse to get recreational usage passed. Similarly, I think the majority of the arguments for "good bloodbenders" are primarily based in some aesthetic or thematic reasoning, rather than the actual merits of the technique.

      Another analogy would be Anti-Korrasami arguments. I'm sure individual reasons vary, but heteronormativity is a big part of the movement, & anyone denying that is fooling themselves.

      Additionally: it's hardly unknown for people to deliberately and fatally OD others on entirely legit prescription drugs.

      What's the point here? I already said that legitimate medicine comes with risks, but in the broader context, if there's medicine that does the same job but more efficiently & with less risks, the old medicine is phased out.

      “sorry for jumping in so late, but I was at an exclusive panel for LoK in Los Angeles after the end of the series, and yeah, Bryan and Mike stated that korrasami was only written seriously at the end of the 4th season so if you’re wondering if it looked like it was written like an afterthought, it’s because it was”

      I've literally come up with better deliberately making up absurd shit to point out how absurd it is to believe this sort of post automatically.

      What's wrong with the comics? The same thing that's "wrong" with Korrasami. A few opinionated fans disapprove; therefore, it must be objectively bad.

      I wouldn't say they're all irredeemably terrible, but are you both really saying you don't see any shortcomings that the original series did not have?

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    • I thought that The Rift and North and South were both excellent. On the others, maybe it's the Fire Nation Royal Family thing, but they sometimes do make them a little over-dramatic-now that I think about it, what humour was there in The Search? They're still very good,imo, with the glaring exception of 'the promise'-and even that had potential. Maybe a contributing factor is that I've never really been that sympathetic towards Azula...but it now looks likely that (sigh) it's possible she could get redeemed too. Lin's voice:Hurray.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Yes, healing has limits, but for bloodbending to be a viable alternative, it must first do something beyond the limits of healing, & second there must be no other technique that compensates for that limit at least as well. I don't see why those examples would be beyond the limit of healing, but even if they were, electrical stimulation would be even better than bloodbending because it only requires the right equipment. Only a highly skilled waterbender could use bloodbending to operate, & even then only during the full moon, Yakone notwithstanding.

      Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; but what we've seen healing do is mend tissue damage (and to a fairly limited degree, at that; note that Katara was unable to save Jet).  There's been no word on whether or not it could be used for fine muscle stimulation.

      And not only do Yakone and sons prove that the full-moon limitation can be overcome, the fact that electrical stimulation would require equipment is a drawback.

      I don't have to? I need not account for the motives of every individual weed smoker to know that there is a significant number who latch on to the medicine argument because they want an excuse to get recreational usage passed. Similarly, I think the majority of the arguments for "good bloodbenders" are primarily based in some aesthetic or thematic reasoning, rather than the actual merits of the technique.

      Okay, but I could just as easily argue that the concern that medical marijuana proponents may just want to smoke recreationally—or that there should even be such a concern—has its roots (yes, I know) in the incredibly widespread moral panic surrounding the plant (which goes well beyond being about "stoners," but I digress). And—similarly—that the argument that bloodbending is innately evil and has absolutely no potential medical applications (or at least none which couldn't, without exception, be handled better by some other technique) is, at best, equally based in aesthetics.

      Another analogy would be Anti-Korrasami arguments. I'm sure individual reasons vary, but heteronormativity is a big part of the movement, & anyone denying that is fooling themselves.

      No argument here, but that's really not the same. One is complaining about canon that one doesn't like while ignoring anything shitty that your allies might be doing; the other is disavowing fanon that one doesn't like on equally fanon grounds.

      What's the point here? I already said that legitimate medicine comes with risks, but in the broader context, if there's medicine that does the same job but more efficiently & with less risks, the old medicine is phased out.

      Which still operates off of the premise that there is, in fact, medicine that reliably does the same job more efficiently and with fewer risks in all circumstances.

      I've literally come up with better deliberately making up absurd shit to point out how absurd it is to believe this sort of post automatically.

      And they didn't even attribute the quote to anyone, either.  I was left with the impression that they were just quoting some anonymous rando on the grounds that it supported their "Korrasami came out of nowhere" narrative.

      I wouldn't say they're all irredeemably terrible, but are you both really saying you don't see any shortcomings that the original series did not have?

      No; just that it wasn't as irredeemably hellawful as some people seem to be arguing (or even actually hellawful at all).

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    • Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; but what we've seen healing do is mend tissue damage (and to a fairly limited degree, at that; note that Katara was unable to save Jet). There's been no word on whether or not it could be used for fine muscle stimulation.

      The explanation given is that it controls chi flow to augment the healing process. The only limit should be things it's not physically feasible to do with waterbending, such as set bones.

      And not only do Yakone and sons prove that the full-moon limitation can be overcome, the fact that electrical stimulation would require equipment is a drawback.

      For the first part, get back to me when they master genetic engineering, & for the second, it's not as much of a drawback as you have to be part of this minority population at this specific timeframe to even do it. Also, firebenders wouldn't need equipment, which already gives it a leg up, the reason I didn't mention them was to stress that anyone could be taught how to do that technique.

      Okay, but I could just as easily argue that the concern that medical marijuana proponents may just want to smoke recreationally—or that there should even be such a concern—has its roots in the incredibly widespread moral panic surrounding the plant (which goes well beyond being about "stoners," but I digress). And—similarly—that the argument that bloodbending is innately evil and has absolutely no potential medical applications (or at least none which couldn't, without exception, be handled better by some other technique) is, at best, equally based in aesthetics.

      Which is an argument I have no problem with, which can be countered in the same way that the anti-marijuana arguments could be & I would argue have been, if not to the extent that some would imply: Demonstrating that they are a more effective therapeutic technique than at least some existing treatments.

      No argument here, but that's really not the same. One is complaining about canon that one doesn't like while ignoring anything shitty that your allies might be doing; the other is disavowing fanon that one doesn't like on equally fanon grounds.

      It's fanon to say that bloodbending doesn't have any demonstrated superiority over other medical techniques?

      Which still operates off of the premise that there is, in fact, medicine that reliably does the same job more efficiently and with fewer risks in all circumstances.

      It's more that there's no good reason to assume that bloodbending is superior at something if it hasn't been demonstrated.

      No; just that it wasn't as irredeemably hellawful as some people seem to be arguing (or even actually hellawful at all).

      Well, then, I agree with that. Except The Promise. That was pretty hellawful.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      The explanation given is that it controls chi flow to augment the healing process. The only limit should be things it's not physically feasible to do with waterbending, such as set bones.

      I was trying to frame it in real-world terms (qí flow, in most parts of the world, is generally considered to be woo-woo by modern medical practitioners); within that framework, it seems to mend soft-tissue damage.

      For the first part, get back to me when they master genetic engineering, & for the second, it's not as much of a drawback as you have to be part of this minority population at this specific timeframe to even do it. Also, firebenders wouldn't need equipment, which already gives it a leg up, the reason I didn't mention them was to stress that anyone could be taught how to do that technique.

      If genetic engineering has anything to do with it, we'd have to be operating off of the premise that the ability to bloodbend at any time is inborn in the first place.

      And if anything, it seems like a firebender's control would have to be even finer. They'd have to be able to generate lightning to begin with (more common in Korra's time than in Aang's, but even so); and they'd have to be able to do so on that tiny of a scale.

      Which is an argument I have no problem with, which can be countered in the same way that the anti-marijuana arguments could be & I would argue have been, if not to the extent that some would imply: Demonstrating that they are a more effective therapeutic technique than at least some existing treatments.

      Okay, but—unlike medical marijuana—this is fantasy and fanon, so I'm not entirely certain how one would go about that.  (Also, medical marijuana is still being debated to at least some degree, even in places where it's perfectly legal.)

      It's fanon to say that bloodbending doesn't have any demonstrated superiority over other medical techniques?
      It's more that there's no good reason to assume that bloodbending is superior at something if it hasn't been demonstrated.

      No, but the same can be said of assuming that it'd automatically be inferior.  And it is fanon to argue that there are no circumstances under which it couldn't be the best tactic.

      Well, then, I agree with that. Except The Promise. That was pretty hellawful.

      Ehh, I was really fairly indifferent to it. But I'll agree that it's the overall weak link.

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    • I was trying to frame it in real-world terms (qí flow, in most parts of the world, is generally considered to be woo-woo by modern medical practitioners); within that framework, it seems to mend soft-tissue damage.

      I could drone on about interstitial fluid's role in healing, but sometimes it's just easier for me to go with the show's woo.

      If genetic engineering has anything to do with it, we'd have to be operating off of the premise that the ability to bloodbend at any time is inborn in the first place.

      Yeah. 'Cause that's where the evidence points. At several times, it's noted that Noatak's & Tarrlok's feats are possible explicitly because they're related to Yakone. Which explains why nobody else has ever figured out how to do this, & is really the only way the setting could work, otherwise all of the waterbending criminals would just learn how to bloodbend any time they wanted & steamroll over everyone else.

      And if anything, it seems like a firebender's control would have to be even finer. They'd have to be able to generate lightning to begin with (more common in Korra's time than in Aang's, but even so); and they'd have to be able to do so on that tiny of a scale.

      Which I think they can, since Azula displays a pretty far range of lightning control, ranging from a little shock prod effect to a huge orb.

      Okay, but—unlike medical marijuana—this is fantasy and fanon, so I'm not entirely certain how one would go about that. (Also, medical marijuana is still being debated to at least some degree, even in places where it's perfectly legal.)

      The way I would go about it is trying to think of something that fits under Bloodbending's known purview that can't be replicated effectively by other means.

      Yes, like I said, I don't think it's been demonstrated as quite as effective as some would have you believe, though I also don't think the evidence supports the conclusion that it's useless.

      No, but the same can be said of assuming that it'd automatically be inferior. And it is fanon to argue that there are no circumstances under which it couldn't be the best tactic.

      Not really, because the default is to reject a claim if it hasn't been demonstrated, especially if its veracity would imply it should have been demonstrated at some point. This is why it's reasonable to conclude that the Loch Ness monster isn't real, even though you can't actually prove that, all you can do is continuously fail to find evidence of it. So, basically, I'm saying bloodbending healing is like the Loch Ness monster: Not only do I reject its utility as undemonstrated, I think we know enough that it should be possible to demonstrate, at least in theory, so I am comfortable saying it probably isn't a useful healing technique until when & if something forces me to re-evaluate that stance.

      Ehh, I was really fairly indifferent to it. But I'll agree that it's the overall weak link.

      It's really mostly the second part I actively hate. The other 2 parts I'm more ambivalent over.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote: Yeah. 'Cause that's where the evidence points. At several times, it's noted that Noatak's & Tarrlok's feats are possible explicitly because they're related to Yakone. Which explains why nobody else has ever figured out how to do this, & is really the only way the setting could work, otherwise all of the waterbending criminals would just learn how to bloodbend any time they wanted & steamroll over everyone else.

      Not necessarily, considering that their entire backstory was both a metaphor for and an outright example of the abuse cycle and bloodbending has always been treated as a highly advanced technique exclusive to particularly powerful waterbenders to begin with.

      Which I think they can, since Azula displays a pretty far range of lightning control, ranging from a little shock prod effect to a huge orb.

      A "little shock prod" would still probably be overkill.

      The way I would go about it is trying to think of something that fits under Bloodbending's known purview that can't be replicated effectively by other means. Yes, like I said, I don't think it's been demonstrated as quite as effective as some would have you believe, though I also don't think the evidence supports the conclusion that it's useless.

      I still say that on a small scale, and in the hands of a skilled healer, it coukld still be at least as useful for cardiac massage and physical therapy as other tactics.

      Not really, because the default is to reject a claim if it hasn't been demonstrated, especially if its veracity would imply it should have been demonstrated at some point. This is why it's reasonable to conclude that the Loch Ness monster isn't real, even though you can't actually prove that, all you can do is continuously fail to find evidence of it. So, basically, I'm saying bloodbending healing is like the Loch Ness monster: Not only do I reject its utility as undemonstrated, I think we know enough that it should be possible to demonstrate, at least in theory, so I am comfortable saying it probably isn't a useful healing technique until when & if something forces me to re-evaluate that stance.

      Except that in the case of bloodbending as an augment to healing, it's not a matter of looking for evidence of something in real life and not finding it. It's a matter of looking at a fictional ability and concluding that its hypothetical utilities can't exist because they're not currently canon.

      So, to be honest?  This is more like the old fanon about lavabending.

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    • Not necessarily, considering that their entire backstory was both a metaphor for and an outright example of the abuse cycle and bloodbending has always been treated as a highly advanced technique exclusive to particularly powerful waterbenders to begin with.

      I didn't say that "strong waterbending" is an impossible explanation or that an explanation even needs to be proven impossible to be rationally rejected. The simple fact is that we have multiple counts of exposition through dialogue that suggests a genetic ability, & the total absence of anything that would suggest otherwise, out of a lot of things that would suggest that. Nobody else learning the skill even after Yakone proves it's possible, at least none that any city officials are aware of, no noticeable proportional increase in his progeny's normal waterbending strength, nothing except an ability that by all accounts lived & died entirely within Yakone's direct bloodline.

      A "little shock prod" would still probably be overkill.

      Still a lot fewer assumptions to get firebender electrotherapy workable than bloodbending therapy.

      I still say that on a small scale, and in the hands of a skilled healer, it coukld still be at least as useful for cardiac massage and physical therapy as other tactics.

      But the healer already knows healing, which we have as much reason to believe would be capable of that as we do bloodbending. Which makes bloodbending, while not technically useless as medicine, effectively useless. It's like why use a straight razor if you already have a scalpel?

      Except that in the case of bloodbending as an augment to healing, it's not a matter of looking for evidence of something in real life and not finding it. It's a matter of looking at a fictional ability and concluding that its hypothetical utilities can't exist because they're not currently canon.

      So looking for evidence in the canon & not finding it. Also, the other problem is that the exact same thing could be said for healing. That would actually diminish the case for bloodbending being able to augment healing, because the show never really states what the limits of healing are. Maybe, with enough time & skill, a healer could set bone. Maybe the only reason Katara was unable to heal the damage Amon did to Korra is she didn't know enough about healing brain damage. Hell, we've already seen spirit water revive Aang after he claimed to be dead, so we can't even really confirm that resurrection isn't a possible ability. Unless, of course, we infer it from the patterns it demonstrates.

      So, to be honest? This is more like the old fanon about lavabending.

      What are you talking about?

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      I didn't say that "strong waterbending" is an impossible explanation or that an explanation even needs to be proven impossible to be rationally rejected. The simple fact is that we have multiple counts of exposition through dialogue that suggests a genetic ability, & the total absence of anything that would suggest otherwise, out of a lot of things that would suggest that. Nobody else learning the skill even after Yakone proves it's possible, at least none that any city officials are aware of, no noticeable proportional increase in his progeny's normal waterbending strength, nothing except an ability that by all accounts lived & died entirely within Yakone's direct bloodline.

      The "multiple counts" of exposition on it being genetic were actually, if I recall, Yakone insinuating that he was from a long line of bloodbenders—a claim which was never expanded upon, and could very well be attributed to him trying to hammer the whole "you are my vengeance" thing into his sons' impressionable little heads. The rest was Tarrlok first trying to intimidate his brother, then bewailing how the guy was unbeatable because he could bloodbend with his mind alone; if anything can be said to have been implied to be the exclusive talent of that screwed-up family, it was said psychic bloodbending (which not even all of said screwed-up family could do; Tarrlok still had to gesture).

      Still a lot fewer assumptions to get firebender electrotherapy workable than bloodbending therapy.

      Except that a highly trained and specialized waterbender medic (seeing as waterbenders can at least hypothetically heal, and all) is probably a hell of a lot more likely than a highly trained and specialized firebender medic to begin with.

      But the healer already knows healing, which we have as much reason to believe would be capable of that as we do bloodbending. Which makes bloodbending, while not technically useless as medicine, effectively useless. It's like why use a straight razor if you already have a scalpel?

      That's why I suggested it as an augment to healing, not a replacement.

      So looking for evidence in the canon & not finding it. Also, the other problem is that the exact same thing could be said for healing. That would actually diminish the case for bloodbending being able to augment healing, because the show never really states what the limits of healing are. Maybe, with enough time & skill, a healer could set bone. Maybe the only reason Katara was unable to heal the damage Amon did to Korra is she didn't know enough about healing brain damage. Hell, we've already seen spirit water revive Aang after he claimed to be dead, so we can't even really confirm that resurrection isn't a possible ability. Unless, of course, we infer it from the patterns it demonstrates.

      Okay, but evidence that healing could do all of that without some sort of an augment (hell, using spirit water is an augment) is equally absent from canon.

      What are you talking about?

      Until lavabenders started showing up in canon? The fanbase was utterly convinced, to a person, that it would be impossible for an earthbender to do that on their own. Because it would require firebending the rock to keep it molten, or something.

      ...come to think of it, that wasn't even pure fanon; it was from Avatar Extras.  (Then again, Avatar Extras also claimed that Zutara was originally supposed to be endgame.)

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    • The "multiple counts" of exposition on it being genetic were actually, if I recall, Yakone insinuating that he was from a long line of bloodbenders—a claim which was never expanded upon, and could very well be attributed to him trying to hammer the whole "you are my vengeance" thing into his sons' impressionable little heads.

      Strongest line. Korra also proclaims "that's why [Tarrlok] could bloodbend me without a full moon--he's Yakone's son." An explanation that Lin & Tenzin accept. With one of Sokka's theories being that Yakone might be a "rare & unique bender." Specifically invoking the Combustionbenders, whom I believe we already agree are an example of an innate bending ability.

      Now, you might say that all of these can individually be explained away, but that's missing the point. This is a narrative, in which the dialogue is motivated by the intent of the writers, which I would say the preponderance of evidence more than proves. We need to know how the Hell they did this in order to follow the story, so they told us. I don't see why it needs to be spelled out as exposition, just like I didn't see why Tarrlok's statements about Amon's motives needed to be spelled out.

      if anything can be said to have been implied to be the exclusive talent of that screwed-up family, it was said psychic bloodbending

      Hardly, since firstly that's not what was actually identified as their heritable trait, & secondly we've seen plenty of instances of benders controlling things with no more movement than the Yakone family demonstrated, it was just never referred to with a name before that. That they're just doing a bloodbending version of this is supported by the fact that all of them used gestures for more complex tasks.

      Except that a highly trained and specialized waterbender medic (seeing as waterbenders can at least hypothetically heal, and all) is probably a hell of a lot more likely than a highly trained and specialized firebender medic to begin with.

      Well, if we're using that argument, since most people are nonbenders, a given medic is most likely to be a nonbender. I don't know what that proves, but it sure is a sound statement.

      That's why I suggested it as an augment to healing, not a replacement.

      One implies the other. If you're doing both, you're necessarily having someone divert attention & effort they could be using to heal into bloodbending instead. This only makes sense if somehow you get something out of it that is superior to if you just had all of the doctors involved focus all of their effort on using healing. In other words, if bloodbending, or at least bloodbending+healing could do something that healing alone could not do, at least not as easily.

      Okay, but evidence that healing could do all of that without some sort of an augment (hell, using spirit water is an augment) is equally absent from canon.

      Yes, that's my point, if I accepted this notion that evidence rooted in the canon is unnecessary, I could just completely dismiss the bloodbending healing claim by asserting that healing could break most if not all hypothetical limits & say you can't prove it wrong, the fact that it's not canon "yet" is meaningless. It's not an argument I'm actually making, it's a hypothetical argument I'm hypothetically making to show that it's unfalsifiable & can be arbitrarily applied to almost any desired premise.

      Until lavabenders started showing up in canon? The fanbase was utterly convinced, to a person, that it would be impossible for an earthbender to do that on their own. Because it would require firebending the rock to keep it molten, or something. ...come to think of it, that wasn't even pure fanon; it was from Avatar Extras. (Then again, Avatar Extras also claimed that Zutara was originally supposed to be endgame.)

      Yes, I said so as well, that was a perfectly reasonable conclusion given the information known at the time. The occasional failure* to reach the proper conclusion does not mean the entire method should be thrown out. That the coelacanth turned out to not be extinct does not mean that Nessie a plesiosaur.

      Avatar Extras also contains jokes, so context is important.

      • =Though this implies the conclusion was actually wrong, when I think it's more likely the explanation of lavabending was simply retconned.
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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      Strongest line. Korra also proclaims "that's why [Tarrlok] could bloodbend me without a full moon--he's Yakone's son." An explanation that Lin & Tenzin accept. With one of Sokka's theories being that Yakone might be a "rare & unique bender." Specifically invoking the Combustionbenders, whom I believe we already agree are an example of an innate bending ability.
      • It wasn't off-base to presume that if Tarrlok was Yakone's son, he was likely also his protégé (which turned out to, in fact, be the case).
      • Sokka was discussing bending feats which might be deemed impossible to anyone who hadn't witnessed them firsthand.
      • Combustionbending is explicitly a distinct subskill (and, unless an entire tribe of them or at least a P'heerling surface in some future canon work, we'll probably never know if it actually is any more hereditary than bending in general or just a spiritual anomaly). Bloodbending without a full moon is just a slightly oomphed-up version of an established subskill (and one established as a matter of power, not genetics).

      Mind you, that's not to say that extraordinary power may not run in certain families (see: the Beifongs, where every earthbender kid takes to metal like it was silt loam). But there's a difference between "sheer raw power runs in this family" and "no one outside of this family will ever have the sheer raw power to pull off this particular stunt."

      Now, you might say that all of these can individually be explained away, but that's missing the point. This is a narrative, in which the dialogue is motivated by the intent of the writers, which I would say the preponderance of evidence more than proves. We need to know how the Hell they did this in order to follow the story, so they told us. I don't see why it needs to be spelled out as exposition, just like I didn't see why Tarrlok's statements about Amon's motives needed to be spelled out.

      See what I said above about Tarrlok and Noatak being Yakone's protégés as well as his sons. They'd been groomed to be bloodbenders from an early age. It still doesn't follow that no unrelated waterbender will ever have sufficient raw power to bloodbend without a full moon. (Hell, it's not like Katara—who only ever had Hama's word that it couldn't be done—was ever going to test it.)

      Hardly, since firstly that's not what was actually identified as their heritable trait, & secondly we've seen plenty of instances of benders controlling things with no more movement than the Yakone family demonstrated, it was just never referred to with a name before that. That they're just doing a bloodbending version of this is supported by the fact that all of them used gestures for more complex tasks.

      Point...although even King Bumi had to move his head and even both of the combustionbenders we've seen have had to do that "inhale, focus, exhale" thing. The rest still stands.

      Well, if we're using that argument, since most people are nonbenders, a given medic is most likely to be a nonbender. I don't know what that proves, but it sure is a sound statement.

      A nonbender can still work medical equipment, right? But, seriously: that's beside the point of how a medic who is a bender is more likely to be a waterbender (who has the capacity to learn healing, which is the most obvious aplication for bending in medicine) than a firebender (with no such edge).

      One implies the other. If you're doing both, you're necessarily having someone divert attention & effort they could be using to heal into bloodbending instead. This only makes sense if somehow you get something out of it that is superior to if you just had all of the doctors involved focus all of their effort on using healing. In other words, if bloodbending, or at least bloodbending+healing could do something that healing alone could not do, at least not as easily.

      I was suggesting that small-scale bloodbending + conventional healing could potentially have advantages over healing alone. (Which, while we're at it, is presuming that there isn't a fine line between the two waterbending disciplines that involve manipulating living tissue to begin with.)

      Yes, that's my point, if I accepted this notion that evidence rooted in the canon is unnecessary, I could just completely dismiss the bloodbending healing claim by asserting that healing could break most if not all hypothetical limits & say you can't prove it wrong, the fact that it's not canon "yet" is meaningless. It's not an argument I'm actually making, it's a hypothetical argument I'm hypothetically making to show that it's unfalsifiable & can be arbitrarily applied to almost any desired premise.

      So...you're pretty much being contrarian, then?

      Yes, I said so as well, that was a perfectly reasonable conclusion given the information known at the time. The occasional failure* to reach the proper conclusion does not mean the entire method should be thrown out. That the coelacanth turned out to not be extinct does not mean that Nessie a plesiosaur.

      And, again: you're comparing observation of real life to speculation about fiction. Again, lavabending is a more accurate metaphor: No, it wasn't entirely unreasonable to take Avatar Extras at face value; it was, however, pretty unreasonable for a certain percentage of the fanbase to cry "you're ruining the lore!" when Ghazan lava-glaived it into oblivion.

      Avatar Extras also contains jokes, so context is important.

      Wouldn't call trolling the Zutaras a "joke." Which isn't to say that trolling 'shippers can't be funny; I'm simply not sure if it qualifies as a joke, per se.

      *Though this implies the conclusion was actually wrong, when I think it's more likely the explanation of lavabending was simply retconned.

      Ehh...it's about as much of a "retcon" as Bryan confirming that Ming-Hua was born without arms after Eugene Lee's speculation that she'd lost them in an accident had already gained traction.

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    • Combustionbending is explicitly a distinct subskill

      It's also the only one that seems to require inheritance, so this hurts my point not at all. There is precedent for specific bending abilities requiring inheritance, even if similar or related skills do not.

      (and, unless an entire tribe of them or at least a P'heerling surface in some future canon work, we'll probably never know if it actually is any more hereditary than bending in general or just a spiritual anomaly).

      Even if it's a non-heritable mutation, it still fits the mold of a bending ability that one must possess innately.

      Bloodbending without a full moon is just a slightly oomphed-up version of an established subskill

      No, it's the ability to use a subskill without meeting the established prerequisite (e.g. a full moon). That the Yakone family can do it because they're just "powerful" enough is the claim, yet they actually don't seem to be particularly powerful waterbenders, except when it comes to bloodbending.

      Mind you, that's not to say that extraordinary power may not run in certain families (see: the Beifongs, where every earthbender kid takes to metal like it was silt loam). But there's a difference between "sheer raw power runs in this family" and "no one outside of this family will ever have the sheer raw power to pull off this particular stunt."

      Yes, & that difference is why, nearly 40 years after Yakone's power was revealed, there isn't an elite squad of 24/7 bloodbenders in the Red Monsoons.

      See what I said above about Tarrlok and Noatak being Yakone's protégés as well as his sons.

      Except they don't say "because they learned from Yakone," they say, "because they're his sons." While we're on the subject, I already made the point that even if you explain away every point individually, it does nothing to dispense with the overall pattern. Think about a crime scene. No, wait, something doesn't feel right about that example...think about Nessie instead:

      • Even though the surgeon's photograph is a hoax, that doesn't mean there's nothing in the lake, in fact stories of the monster circulated before that picture.
      • Even though sonar sweeps haven't found any monster, new large objects are still discovered in the lake. As of 2016, we've found a movie prop that has been lost for 50 years. We've also found large, moving objects in the depths that we don't know what they are. This makes it possible that Nessie simply hasn't been found yet.
      • Even though there are cameras watching the lake, there must surely by blind spots, & by their owners' admission, they can't make things out in the dark. This would be a perfect time for an amphibious monster to go hunting to supplement her food source.

      Those are all, near as I can tell, at least feasible counter-counterarguments about Nessie, & they could all fit into a single monster theory...but isn't the much simpler, more likely explanation that the circumstantial evidence seems to suggest she doesn't exist because she actually doesn't?

      They'd been groomed to be bloodbenders from an early age. It still doesn't follow that no unrelated waterbender will ever have sufficient raw power to bloodbend without a full moon.

      Because it's not a matter of raw power, it's a matter of having a trait specific to bloodbending that improves it far beyond the normal limits of a waterbender.

      (Hell, it's not like Katara—who only ever had Hama's word that it couldn't be done—was ever going to test it.)

      Who ostensibly couldn't do it because she didn't have the arbitrary power level, despite displaying waterbending feats on par with them.

      A nonbender can still work medical equipment, right? But, seriously: that's beside the point of how a medic who is a bender is more likely to be a waterbender (who has the capacity to learn healing, which is the most obvious aplication for bending in medicine) than a firebender (with no such edge).

      Okay, so?

      I was suggesting that small-scale bloodbending + conventional healing could potentially have advantages over healing alone. (Which, while we're at it, is presuming that there isn't a fine line between the two waterbending disciplines that involve manipulating living tissue to begin with.)

      And I'm rejecting that premise.

      That bloodbending & healing are likely to be 2 sides of the same coin is what I'm alluding to in my surgical vs. other blades analogies, I'm just choosing not to go into it to keep things simple.

      So...you're pretty much being contrarian, then?

      ...No. It's called reduction to absurdity. A premise that would lead to absurdities ought not be accepted.

      And, again: you're comparing observation of real life to speculation about fiction.

      Because, for the most part, logical principles apply whether you're talking about real or fictional situations. Though I actually did take into account the difference when I said that even if you can propose alternate explanations for the "he can bloodbend because he's Yakone's son" axiom, it doesn't make sense to do so in the context of a fictional universe, where we can assume a consistent message is intended to reveal something about its rules.

      Again, lavabending is a more accurate metaphor: No, it wasn't entirely unreasonable to take Avatar Extras at face value; it was, however, pretty unreasonable for a certain percentage of the fanbase to cry "you're ruining the lore!" when Ghazan lava-glaived it into oblivion.

      Separate issues. Yakone's ability being genetic is strongly indicated by the plot. The fact that it would actually break the story if it wasn't is why people should be happy about that.

      Ehh...it's about as much of a "retcon" as Bryan confirming that Ming-Hua was born without arms after Eugene Lee's speculation that she'd lost them in an accident had already gained traction.

      I don't know how that got put into Avatar Extras, but it sounds to me a lot like they had one idea, then changed their minds & figured that since the old idea was only ever said on Avatar Extras, it didn't really matter.

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    • Ok, calm down guys

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    • Okay, but the reason bloodbending ever was supposedly restricted to the full moon is still because of the power boost granted by it.

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    • LORDPascal wrote: Ok, calm down guys

      DTMWTD.

      Okay, but the reason bloodbending ever was supposedly restricted to the full moon is still because of the power boost granted by it.

      So? If we were talking about something like a lion turtle, that would be one thing, but it doesn't follow that a normal human should be able to break that barrier. Yakone could hypothetically have a mutation that increases his bending power, but since the waterbending he & his progeny display is nothing special, the more likely answer is that they have a trait specific to bloodbending.

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    • LORDPascal
      LORDPascal removed this reply because:
      H
      14:49, April 24, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • I personally like when endings stay sort of open, so yeah, I agree I see no point to the comics.

      The ending of the TV series gives you things to think about, and thus helps you keep the story alive.

      We know they'll have trouble righting the world after the war, we know life won't be easy, but what's the point in taking away the imagination.

      The truth is, the TV series told us all we needed to know, and the rest should've been up to us.

      To me, ATLA ends with the TV series, but it also doesn't because that ending gives me somethings to think about, and that's amazing.

      I don't see why they'd try to "close it up". Life's not something you close up, you live it, you just figure things out as you go!

      ATLA had one major problem, "the war that divided the nations", along with the characters' own crises, and at the end of the TV show, that was taken care of. Of course, we all know that the end of the war would not unify the nations again all by itself, but that's beyond the point.

      Every character had somehow reached a conclusion, an answer to the questions they asked at the beginning. Any question beyond that is beyond the TV show boundaries and is for us to think about.

      I think the comics take that imagination away from us, and also take a part of what made the end very special.

      I personally will never read them, I'll just stick to the end of the TV show.

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    • I always think "leave us to our imagination" is a weak position to begin with, because the point of telling a story is to tell the story, but in this case, I'd also add that nothing about adding more material means there's no room for speculation, because any new point you add in the timeline necessarily creates 2 new gaps; before & after that point.

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    • Avatar Beta wrote:
      Ugh, why does everything boil down to Zutara?

      For the same reason that there's a Wolverine between Cyclops and Jean Grey... it's the appeal of the sexual tension of the good girl/good guy/bad guy triangle.   It's trite and overdone, and I'm glad that ship was sunk in this show and that for once in these sexual dynamics, the nice guy didn't finish last.

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    • I just thought of another point against medical bloodbending: in real world healing, if one of these methods gets corrupted, OK, that's fine. It's a problem, but you can't use it anytime, it has to be a specific place with all the tools.

      Bloodbending doesn't have that limitation. It can be used anytime at night, anywhere, on multiple people at once.

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    • Jayking116 wrote: 1) The character changes. First off, Zuko is a crazy war obsessed nutter again. This really upset me because at the end of TLA Zuko's character definately semmed like he had matured from that anal teenager into a fully realized firelord who wanted to make the world a better place. But for some reason they thought it was neccessary to take Zuko back to his old roots so they could jam in the fact that he is CLEARLY confused and is struggling to do the right thing (yeah, because we clearly haven't gotten enough of that in the past) and go through yet another character arc where he realizes his mistake and tries to better himself in the future. I'm sorry, what was the whole point of having him go back to an angry jerk again? we get it, Zuko has struggled in the past. But by the time TLA tv series was over he seemed totally matured and was ready to live a life of blissful happiness and unquestionable honor as the firelord. So why did they make him convert back? I don't really see the reason why to be honest. Just more dumb character arc like we've never gotten before (sarcastically) and Ozai I thought was especially bad. He went from being a ruthless tyrant to somewhat like Iroh... While Zuko was visiting him in prison he asked him to bring him some tea and he even gave him good advice on how to be firelord. He told him that he can do what he wants because he's firelord. I would of expected Ozai to be more like "You don't know what kind of power you harness and you are yet to realize the responsibility of being the firelord. Even now you are still weak. You do not deserve this power" now doesn't that sound more like Ozai?

      2) Potential drama? Okay, so it's obvious that Bryke is teasing us with this whole Mai and Zuko thing. And again, I ask. What was the point of making them break up again? When ATLA ended I really thought that Zuko and Mai were going to have their happily ever after. And I was happy for them despite my deep hatred for those two being together (I was a huge Zutara fan back then) so having them break up should of somewhat, redeemed them in the eyes of myself and other Maiko fans at least. But honestly, it makes me even more frustrated because I know that they are going to get back together eventually (even if they end their relationship permanently on a positive note) and it will be another dumb character arc moment when they realize how much they mean to each other and how they make each other happy. I mean come on, how many times do you think your gonna fool us with this? it's obvious that they care about each other so why don't you just make them get married already? Why do you feel that more teen drama is neccessary? It's not intriguing in the slightest it's just causing more senseless drama across the fanbase. Which yeah, I get it... is kinda the point. Well done guys, someone oughtta give you guys a tediously obnoxious producer award.

      3) Characters are somewhat uninteresting in this, reading perhaps? So yeah, if your gonna go through the effort of bringing these characters back one last time then why couldn't you make another series or why couldn't you extend the original series for a couple of more episodes? or even brought them back in flashbacks like in LoK? Maybe it's just me but I really don't like the fact that they continued the original series in reading format. It does somewhat, take alot of the humor out of what made the original show so fantastic and one of the greatest tv series of all time. Sokka still has his sense of humor, great... But what's the point if you can't hear Jack DeSenna's hilarious voice dubbing Sokka's likable sense of humor? It just takes away a huge element of what made Sokka so funny and likeable in the show. But I do give him some credit though, at least he was funnier than the 2010 film.

      4) There's no reason for them to exist. When ATLA ended, that was it. Aang and everyone elses story was complete. We know that he formed republic city after the 100 year war was over from watching LoK. There is no reason to carry on what was already perfect. The tv series ended on a positive note like all good tv series should. So when I saw Katara and Aang kiss in the end, I genuinely believed that they would be together forever. And I was right, same with Mai and Zuko when they got back together in the end. But apparently not :/ we don't need to know every single detail about what happened when the war was over. That's just backstory, and the whole purpose of backstory is that well, it's pretty much pointless xD. Everything was summed up in the very beginning of LoK. They explained in the very beginning that after the war was over Aang and his friends formed republic city so that all nations could live together and even non-benders. That's all you need! You don't need to justify every little detail that happened in the process of the harmony restoration or the process of bulding republic city. I do believe there are some redeeming qualities of these comic books. The first is that we do find out what happened to Zuko's mom and it's about god dam time too! But why couldn't you have put that in the show like I mentioned before? If it's the limited episode quantity your worried about then why couldn't you of just cut a few other episodes out? I can think of a few. Like, Appa's lost days, Tales of Ba Sing Se and all of that other stuff. We don't need to know every single detail of what happened to the Avatar's bison when he got captured but we DO need to know what happened to Zuko's mother!!

      So yeah, this is just a few reasons why I hate the promise trilogy and most of the other comics too. Keep in mind that these are my own thoughs so don't go ape shit if you don't agree with me xD

      I can't agree more with you. The characters feel... different. The world feels different. Katara IS NOT Katara. Just feels... wrong.

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    • LORDPascal wrote:

      Jayking116 wrote: 1) The character changes. First off, Zuko is a crazy war obsessed nutter again. This really upset me because at the end of TLA Zuko's character definately semmed like he had matured from that anal teenager into a fully realized firelord who wanted to make the world a better place. But for some reason they thought it was neccessary to take Zuko back to his old roots so they could jam in the fact that he is CLEARLY confused and is struggling to do the right thing (yeah, because we clearly haven't gotten enough of that in the past) and go through yet another character arc where he realizes his mistake and tries to better himself in the future. I'm sorry, what was the whole point of having him go back to an angry jerk again? we get it, Zuko has struggled in the past. But by the time TLA tv series was over he seemed totally matured and was ready to live a life of blissful happiness and unquestionable honor as the firelord. So why did they make him convert back? I don't really see the reason why to be honest. Just more dumb character arc like we've never gotten before (sarcastically) and Ozai I thought was especially bad. He went from being a ruthless tyrant to somewhat like Iroh... While Zuko was visiting him in prison he asked him to bring him some tea and he even gave him good advice on how to be firelord. He told him that he can do what he wants because he's firelord. I would of expected Ozai to be more like "You don't know what kind of power you harness and you are yet to realize the responsibility of being the firelord. Even now you are still weak. You do not deserve this power" now doesn't that sound more like Ozai?

      2) Potential drama? Okay, so it's obvious that Bryke is teasing us with this whole Mai and Zuko thing. And again, I ask. What was the point of making them break up again? When ATLA ended I really thought that Zuko and Mai were going to have their happily ever after. And I was happy for them despite my deep hatred for those two being together (I was a huge Zutara fan back then) so having them break up should of somewhat, redeemed them in the eyes of myself and other Maiko fans at least. But honestly, it makes me even more frustrated because I know that they are going to get back together eventually (even if they end their relationship permanently on a positive note) and it will be another dumb character arc moment when they realize how much they mean to each other and how they make each other happy. I mean come on, how many times do you think your gonna fool us with this? it's obvious that they care about each other so why don't you just make them get married already? Why do you feel that more teen drama is neccessary? It's not intriguing in the slightest it's just causing more senseless drama across the fanbase. Which yeah, I get it... is kinda the point. Well done guys, someone oughtta give you guys a tediously obnoxious producer award.

      3) Characters are somewhat uninteresting in this, reading perhaps? So yeah, if your gonna go through the effort of bringing these characters back one last time then why couldn't you make another series or why couldn't you extend the original series for a couple of more episodes? or even brought them back in flashbacks like in LoK? Maybe it's just me but I really don't like the fact that they continued the original series in reading format. It does somewhat, take alot of the humor out of what made the original show so fantastic and one of the greatest tv series of all time. Sokka still has his sense of humor, great... But what's the point if you can't hear Jack DeSenna's hilarious voice dubbing Sokka's likable sense of humor? It just takes away a huge element of what made Sokka so funny and likeable in the show. But I do give him some credit though, at least he was funnier than the 2010 film.

      4) There's no reason for them to exist. When ATLA ended, that was it. Aang and everyone elses story was complete. We know that he formed republic city after the 100 year war was over from watching LoK. There is no reason to carry on what was already perfect. The tv series ended on a positive note like all good tv series should. So when I saw Katara and Aang kiss in the end, I genuinely believed that they would be together forever. And I was right, same with Mai and Zuko when they got back together in the end. But apparently not :/ we don't need to know every single detail about what happened when the war was over. That's just backstory, and the whole purpose of backstory is that well, it's pretty much pointless xD. Everything was summed up in the very beginning of LoK. They explained in the very beginning that after the war was over Aang and his friends formed republic city so that all nations could live together and even non-benders. That's all you need! You don't need to justify every little detail that happened in the process of the harmony restoration or the process of bulding republic city. I do believe there are some redeeming qualities of these comic books. The first is that we do find out what happened to Zuko's mom and it's about god dam time too! But why couldn't you have put that in the show like I mentioned before? If it's the limited episode quantity your worried about then why couldn't you of just cut a few other episodes out? I can think of a few. Like, Appa's lost days, Tales of Ba Sing Se and all of that other stuff. We don't need to know every single detail of what happened to the Avatar's bison when he got captured but we DO need to know what happened to Zuko's mother!!

      So yeah, this is just a few reasons why I hate the promise trilogy and most of the other comics too. Keep in mind that these are my own thoughs so don't go ape shit if you don't agree with me xD

      I can't agree more with you. The characters feel... different. The world feels different. Katara IS NOT Katara. Just feels... wrong.

      Why do they feel different?

        Loading editor
    • Ninja72 wrote:

      Why do they feel different?

      Not the guy you were asking, but I found LoK Katara was much less active than I would expect her to be. She doesn't do anything when Unalaq brings an army to the Southern Water tribe, lets Korra grow up in a white lotus compound without traveling the world like the avatar is meant to, and is generally a non-event where Atla Katara was actually quite a driven character.

      All these could be explained by her grieving Aang and Sokka, though.

        Loading editor
    • Htchalk wrote:

      Ninja72 wrote:

      Why do they feel different?

      Not the guy you were asking, but I found LoK Katara was much less active than I would expect her to be. She doesn't do anything when Unalaq brings an army to the Southern Water tribe, lets Korra grow up in a white lotus compound without traveling the world like the avatar is meant to, and is generally a non-event where Atla Katara was actually quite a driven character.

      All these could be explained by her grieving Aang and Sokka, though.

      This is not about Lok, it is about ATLA comics.

        Loading editor
    • Also, Katara was 86, & Korra was being trained at the time, nevermind the dubious idea that it's her job to intervene in something that's between Korra, Tonraq, & Senna.

      inb4 someone mentions King Bumi as if he's the norm, when most people don't even live as long as he did.

        Loading editor
    • Ninja72 wrote:

      LORDPascal wrote:

      Jayking116 wrote: 1) The character changes. First off, Zuko is a crazy war obsessed nutter again. This really upset me because at the end of TLA Zuko's character definately semmed like he had matured from that anal teenager into a fully realized firelord who wanted to make the world a better place. But for some reason they thought it was neccessary to take Zuko back to his old roots so they could jam in the fact that he is CLEARLY confused and is struggling to do the right thing (yeah, because we clearly haven't gotten enough of that in the past) and go through yet another character arc where he realizes his mistake and tries to better himself in the future. I'm sorry, what was the whole point of having him go back to an angry jerk again? we get it, Zuko has struggled in the past. But by the time TLA tv series was over he seemed totally matured and was ready to live a life of blissful happiness and unquestionable honor as the firelord. So why did they make him convert back? I don't really see the reason why to be honest. Just more dumb character arc like we've never gotten before (sarcastically) and Ozai I thought was especially bad. He went from being a ruthless tyrant to somewhat like Iroh... While Zuko was visiting him in prison he asked him to bring him some tea and he even gave him good advice on how to be firelord. He told him that he can do what he wants because he's firelord. I would of expected Ozai to be more like "You don't know what kind of power you harness and you are yet to realize the responsibility of being the firelord. Even now you are still weak. You do not deserve this power" now doesn't that sound more like Ozai?

      2) Potential drama? Okay, so it's obvious that Bryke is teasing us with this whole Mai and Zuko thing. And again, I ask. What was the point of making them break up again? When ATLA ended I really thought that Zuko and Mai were going to have their happily ever after. And I was happy for them despite my deep hatred for those two being together (I was a huge Zutara fan back then) so having them break up should of somewhat, redeemed them in the eyes of myself and other Maiko fans at least. But honestly, it makes me even more frustrated because I know that they are going to get back together eventually (even if they end their relationship permanently on a positive note) and it will be another dumb character arc moment when they realize how much they mean to each other and how they make each other happy. I mean come on, how many times do you think your gonna fool us with this? it's obvious that they care about each other so why don't you just make them get married already? Why do you feel that more teen drama is neccessary? It's not intriguing in the slightest it's just causing more senseless drama across the fanbase. Which yeah, I get it... is kinda the point. Well done guys, someone oughtta give you guys a tediously obnoxious producer award.

      3) Characters are somewhat uninteresting in this, reading perhaps? So yeah, if your gonna go through the effort of bringing these characters back one last time then why couldn't you make another series or why couldn't you extend the original series for a couple of more episodes? or even brought them back in flashbacks like in LoK? Maybe it's just me but I really don't like the fact that they continued the original series in reading format. It does somewhat, take alot of the humor out of what made the original show so fantastic and one of the greatest tv series of all time. Sokka still has his sense of humor, great... But what's the point if you can't hear Jack DeSenna's hilarious voice dubbing Sokka's likable sense of humor? It just takes away a huge element of what made Sokka so funny and likeable in the show. But I do give him some credit though, at least he was funnier than the 2010 film.

      4) There's no reason for them to exist. When ATLA ended, that was it. Aang and everyone elses story was complete. We know that he formed republic city after the 100 year war was over from watching LoK. There is no reason to carry on what was already perfect. The tv series ended on a positive note like all good tv series should. So when I saw Katara and Aang kiss in the end, I genuinely believed that they would be together forever. And I was right, same with Mai and Zuko when they got back together in the end. But apparently not :/ we don't need to know every single detail about what happened when the war was over. That's just backstory, and the whole purpose of backstory is that well, it's pretty much pointless xD. Everything was summed up in the very beginning of LoK. They explained in the very beginning that after the war was over Aang and his friends formed republic city so that all nations could live together and even non-benders. That's all you need! You don't need to justify every little detail that happened in the process of the harmony restoration or the process of bulding republic city. I do believe there are some redeeming qualities of these comic books. The first is that we do find out what happened to Zuko's mom and it's about god dam time too! But why couldn't you have put that in the show like I mentioned before? If it's the limited episode quantity your worried about then why couldn't you of just cut a few other episodes out? I can think of a few. Like, Appa's lost days, Tales of Ba Sing Se and all of that other stuff. We don't need to know every single detail of what happened to the Avatar's bison when he got captured but we DO need to know what happened to Zuko's mother!!

      So yeah, this is just a few reasons why I hate the promise trilogy and most of the other comics too. Keep in mind that these are my own thoughs so don't go ape shit if you don't agree with me xD

      I can't agree more with you. The characters feel... different. The world feels different. Katara IS NOT Katara. Just feels... wrong.

      Why do they feel different?

      In the series, Katara is an open-minded person that embraces change, and that doesn't quite fit with the "Katara" we see in the comics... I just can't imagine the Katara we see in the series doing and saying the things she does and says in the comics, I just can't.

        Loading editor
    • LORDPascal wrote:

      Ninja72 wrote:

      LORDPascal wrote:

      Jayking116 wrote: 1) The character changes. First off, Zuko is a crazy war obsessed nutter again. This really upset me because at the end of TLA Zuko's character definately semmed like he had matured from that anal teenager into a fully realized firelord who wanted to make the world a better place. But for some reason they thought it was neccessary to take Zuko back to his old roots so they could jam in the fact that he is CLEARLY confused and is struggling to do the right thing (yeah, because we clearly haven't gotten enough of that in the past) and go through yet another character arc where he realizes his mistake and tries to better himself in the future. I'm sorry, what was the whole point of having him go back to an angry jerk again? we get it, Zuko has struggled in the past. But by the time TLA tv series was over he seemed totally matured and was ready to live a life of blissful happiness and unquestionable honor as the firelord. So why did they make him convert back? I don't really see the reason why to be honest. Just more dumb character arc like we've never gotten before (sarcastically) and Ozai I thought was especially bad. He went from being a ruthless tyrant to somewhat like Iroh... While Zuko was visiting him in prison he asked him to bring him some tea and he even gave him good advice on how to be firelord. He told him that he can do what he wants because he's firelord. I would of expected Ozai to be more like "You don't know what kind of power you harness and you are yet to realize the responsibility of being the firelord. Even now you are still weak. You do not deserve this power" now doesn't that sound more like Ozai?

      2) Potential drama? Okay, so it's obvious that Bryke is teasing us with this whole Mai and Zuko thing. And again, I ask. What was the point of making them break up again? When ATLA ended I really thought that Zuko and Mai were going to have their happily ever after. And I was happy for them despite my deep hatred for those two being together (I was a huge Zutara fan back then) so having them break up should of somewhat, redeemed them in the eyes of myself and other Maiko fans at least. But honestly, it makes me even more frustrated because I know that they are going to get back together eventually (even if they end their relationship permanently on a positive note) and it will be another dumb character arc moment when they realize how much they mean to each other and how they make each other happy. I mean come on, how many times do you think your gonna fool us with this? it's obvious that they care about each other so why don't you just make them get married already? Why do you feel that more teen drama is neccessary? It's not intriguing in the slightest it's just causing more senseless drama across the fanbase. Which yeah, I get it... is kinda the point. Well done guys, someone oughtta give you guys a tediously obnoxious producer award.

      3) Characters are somewhat uninteresting in this, reading perhaps? So yeah, if your gonna go through the effort of bringing these characters back one last time then why couldn't you make another series or why couldn't you extend the original series for a couple of more episodes? or even brought them back in flashbacks like in LoK? Maybe it's just me but I really don't like the fact that they continued the original series in reading format. It does somewhat, take alot of the humor out of what made the original show so fantastic and one of the greatest tv series of all time. Sokka still has his sense of humor, great... But what's the point if you can't hear Jack DeSenna's hilarious voice dubbing Sokka's likable sense of humor? It just takes away a huge element of what made Sokka so funny and likeable in the show. But I do give him some credit though, at least he was funnier than the 2010 film.

      4) There's no reason for them to exist. When ATLA ended, that was it. Aang and everyone elses story was complete. We know that he formed republic city after the 100 year war was over from watching LoK. There is no reason to carry on what was already perfect. The tv series ended on a positive note like all good tv series should. So when I saw Katara and Aang kiss in the end, I genuinely believed that they would be together forever. And I was right, same with Mai and Zuko when they got back together in the end. But apparently not :/ we don't need to know every single detail about what happened when the war was over. That's just backstory, and the whole purpose of backstory is that well, it's pretty much pointless xD. Everything was summed up in the very beginning of LoK. They explained in the very beginning that after the war was over Aang and his friends formed republic city so that all nations could live together and even non-benders. That's all you need! You don't need to justify every little detail that happened in the process of the harmony restoration or the process of bulding republic city. I do believe there are some redeeming qualities of these comic books. The first is that we do find out what happened to Zuko's mom and it's about god dam time too! But why couldn't you have put that in the show like I mentioned before? If it's the limited episode quantity your worried about then why couldn't you of just cut a few other episodes out? I can think of a few. Like, Appa's lost days, Tales of Ba Sing Se and all of that other stuff. We don't need to know every single detail of what happened to the Avatar's bison when he got captured but we DO need to know what happened to Zuko's mother!!

      So yeah, this is just a few reasons why I hate the promise trilogy and most of the other comics too. Keep in mind that these are my own thoughs so don't go ape shit if you don't agree with me xD

      I can't agree more with you. The characters feel... different. The world feels different. Katara IS NOT Katara. Just feels... wrong.
      Why do they feel different?

      In the series, Katara is an open-minded person that embraces change, and that doesn't quite fit with the "Katara" we see in the comics... I just can't imagine the Katara we see in the series doing and saying the things she does and says in the comics, I just can't.

      Could you please give an example?

        Loading editor
    • Htchalk wrote:

      Ninja72 wrote:

      Why do they feel different?

      Not the guy you were asking, but I found LoK Katara was much less active than I would expect her to be. She doesn't do anything when Unalaq brings an army to the Southern Water tribe, lets Korra grow up in a white lotus compound without traveling the world like the avatar is meant to, and is generally a non-event where Atla Katara was actually quite a driven character.

      All these could be explained by her grieving Aang and Sokka, though.

      Yeah, the Katara we see in Lok is not the Katara we see in Atla either. Just starting with her life as an adult: marries Aang and becomes a healer... a HEALER. REALLY? The Katara we see in Atla didn't want to become a healer, she wanted to HELP people, and we all know why. Aahg... I really do hate retcon. If they want to change a character at least explain why... why does she act that way? What did happen to her that made her act the way she does in Lok? They never explained that...

        Loading editor
    • LORDPascal wrote:

      Htchalk wrote:


      Ninja72 wrote:

      Why do they feel different?

      Not the guy you were asking, but I found LoK Katara was much less active than I would expect her to be. She doesn't do anything when Unalaq brings an army to the Southern Water tribe, lets Korra grow up in a white lotus compound without traveling the world like the avatar is meant to, and is generally a non-event where Atla Katara was actually quite a driven character.

      All these could be explained by her grieving Aang and Sokka, though.

      Yeah, the Katara we see in Lok is not the Katara we see in Atla either. Just starting with her life as an adult: marries Aang and becomes a healer... a HEALER. REALLY? The Katara we see in Atla didn't want to become a healer, she wanted to HELP people, and we all know why. Aahg... I really do hate retcon. If they want to change a character at least explain why... why does she act that way? What did happen to her that made her act the way she does in Lok? They never explained that...

      Do you not know that people change, when they grow up?
      Katara is only 14 in ATLA and  85 at the start of LOK.

        Loading editor
    • Ninja72 wrote:

      LORDPascal wrote:

      Htchalk wrote:


      Ninja72 wrote:

      Why do they feel different?

      Not the guy you were asking, but I found LoK Katara was much less active than I would expect her to be. She doesn't do anything when Unalaq brings an army to the Southern Water tribe, lets Korra grow up in a white lotus compound without traveling the world like the avatar is meant to, and is generally a non-event where Atla Katara was actually quite a driven character.

      All these could be explained by her grieving Aang and Sokka, though.

      Yeah, the Katara we see in Lok is not the Katara we see in Atla either. Just starting with her life as an adult: marries Aang and becomes a healer... a HEALER. REALLY? The Katara we see in Atla didn't want to become a healer, she wanted to HELP people, and we all know why. Aahg... I really do hate retcon. If they want to change a character at least explain why... why does she act that way? What did happen to her that made her act the way she does in Lok? They never explained that...

      Do you not know that people change, when they grow up?
      Katara is only 14 in ATLA and  85 at the start of LOK.

      Seriously? I didn't know that. (Irony) Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I didn't like how they changed her. I think they did a terrible job with Katara in Lok, except for book 4.

        Loading editor
    • LORDPascal wrote:

      Ninja72 wrote:

      LORDPascal wrote:

      Htchalk wrote:


      Ninja72 wrote:

      Why do they feel different?

      Not the guy you were asking, but I found LoK Katara was much less active than I would expect her to be. She doesn't do anything when Unalaq brings an army to the Southern Water tribe, lets Korra grow up in a white lotus compound without traveling the world like the avatar is meant to, and is generally a non-event where Atla Katara was actually quite a driven character.

      All these could be explained by her grieving Aang and Sokka, though.

      Yeah, the Katara we see in Lok is not the Katara we see in Atla either. Just starting with her life as an adult: marries Aang and becomes a healer... a HEALER. REALLY? The Katara we see in Atla didn't want to become a healer, she wanted to HELP people, and we all know why. Aahg... I really do hate retcon. If they want to change a character at least explain why... why does she act that way? What did happen to her that made her act the way she does in Lok? They never explained that...
      Do you not know that people change, when they grow up?
      Katara is only 14 in ATLA and  85 at the start of LOK.

      Seriously? I didn't know that. (Irony) Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I didn't like how they changed her. I think they did a terrible job with Katara in Lok, except for book 4.

      What I was saying is that you can not expect her to act the same in Lok as  she did in ATLA. She is much older in LOK, so of course she will be different.

        Loading editor
    • The Katara we see in Atla didn't want to become a healer, she wanted to HELP people

      ...Are you even listening to yourself? There's no "retcon" here, Katara had nothing against healing & in fact willingly used it many times in the original series. Her problem was being banned from learning combat due to the sexist traditions of the north.

        Loading editor
    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      The Katara we see in Atla didn't want to become a healer, she wanted to HELP people

      ...Are you even listening to yourself? There's no "retcon" here, Katara had nothing against healing & in fact willingly used it many times in the original series. Her problem was being banned from learning combat due to the sexist traditions of the north.

      OMG it IS retcon, at least for me. But whatever.

        Loading editor
    • LORDPascal wrote:
      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      The Katara we see in Atla didn't want to become a healer, she wanted to HELP people
      ...Are you even listening to yourself? There's no "retcon" here, Katara had nothing against healing & in fact willingly used it many times in the original series. Her problem was being banned from learning combat due to the sexist traditions of the north.
      OMG it IS retcon, at least for me. But whatever.

      It is not a retcon, people just change when they grow up. 

        Loading editor
    • LORDPascal wrote:

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      The Katara we see in Atla didn't want to become a healer, she wanted to HELP people

      ...Are you even listening to yourself? There's no "retcon" here, Katara had nothing against healing & in fact willingly used it many times in the original series. Her problem was being banned from learning combat due to the sexist traditions of the north.

      OMG it IS retcon, at least for me. But whatever.

      That's called being wrong & too stubborn to accept it.

        Loading editor
    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      LORDPascal wrote:

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      The Katara we see in Atla didn't want to become a healer, she wanted to HELP people

      ...Are you even listening to yourself? There's no "retcon" here, Katara had nothing against healing & in fact willingly used it many times in the original series. Her problem was being banned from learning combat due to the sexist traditions of the north.

      OMG it IS retcon, at least for me. But whatever.

      That's called being wrong & too stubborn to accept it.

      Or maybe YOU're the stubborn for not accepting that everybody has the same opinion as you

        Loading editor
    • What you said contradicts established facts, you're just playing the Opinion Card because you've been falsely taught that it means everyone has to accept whatever you say.

      In fact, your "opinion" isn't even consistent with itself. "Wanting to help people" is no reason not to become a Healer, because they DO help people.

        Loading editor
    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      What you said contradicts established facts, you're just playing the Opinion Card because you've been falsely taught that it means everyone has to accept whatever you say.

      In fact, your "opinion" isn't even consistent with itself. "Wanting to help people" is no reason not to become a Healer, because they DO help people.

      Whatever

        Loading editor
    • LORDPascal wrote:
      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      What you said contradicts established facts, you're just playing the Opinion Card because you've been falsely taught that it means everyone has to accept whatever you say.

      In fact, your "opinion" isn't even consistent with itself. "Wanting to help people" is no reason not to become a Healer, because they DO help people.

      Whatever

      You know, Neo Bahamut is completely right. Healers DO help people.  Katara had nothing against healing. What exactly is your point?

        Loading editor
    • Also, it's not like she immediately said "Okay, war's over, time to be a healer now." The comics show very clearly that she remained very active and very involved in goings-on both in the Water Tribes and elsewhere, as did the rest of the Gaang. 

      Besides, Katara, as has been discussed, never had a problem with healing per se; she does it numerous times throughout the series. In Book 1, the very specific issue she had was that women in the NWT were being forced into being healers and blocked from combat because of their gender. You'll note that after Book 1, at no point in the series is this brought up again IIRC.

      The only place I can think of where we've seen Katara not doing much of anything apart from healing is LoK. And I am entirely okay with that. Katara in LoK is, as has been mentioned, eighty-five years old or so. There is literally no way someone that age could be as physically active as they were seven decades earlier, when they were just fourteen.

        Loading editor
    • Ninja72 wrote:

      LORDPascal wrote:
      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      What you said contradicts established facts, you're just playing the Opinion Card because you've been falsely taught that it means everyone has to accept whatever you say.

      In fact, your "opinion" isn't even consistent with itself. "Wanting to help people" is no reason not to become a Healer, because they DO help people.

      Whatever

      You know, Neo Bahamut is completely right. Healers DO help people.  Katara had nothing against healing. What exactly is your point?

      I have been waiting to see if he'd respond before I pulled this out, & I have waited long enough.

        Loading editor
    • Ok, first she did not "quickly" marry Aang she married him around or a bit over a decade after the war ended. Also, Katara wanted to be allowed to fight, so she can help in the war, but later, when she was an adult, there was no war.  Also, Katara never said something like "I do not want to be a healer", she just wanted women to be allowed to fight like men are. And she did not become a healer right after the war. Also, keep in mind that the Katara of Lok had already lost both her husband and her brother, no wonder why she has lost the will to fight.

        Loading editor
    • In the end of the series after she plays a major part in ending the war, she turns to Aang and initiates a romantic partnership with him after little indication that she returned the feelings he’s had for her throughout the entire series.

      Lol you linked to someone pushing Zutara denialist myths, I'm sure that's a great sign.

      We learn through a series of one-liners and verbalized reminiscing from other characters that after the end of the original series, Katara quickly married Aang, started a large family with him, and proceeded to not do anything of political importance for the rest of her life until deciding to teach waterbending to Korra and occasionally healing a main character who was injured with her waterbending powers.

      False. As Ninja72 already pointed out, this ignores an awful lot of what she does in the comics, & besides that, Yakone mentions that she was responsible for getting Bloodbending banned. She is also implied to work closely with the White Lotus.

      While marrying young, starting a family, and living a quiet domestic life is clearly a perfectly fine choice for any woman in the real world, the choice to force this life onto a female character for whom they’ve made a major point time and time again would never be satisfied living that kind of narrative smacks of character assassination and sexism.

      They never made that point. This person's own summary doesn't support that point. As they themselves put it, Katara objected to being barred from fighting against her will. They offer no evidence that Katara wasn't interested in marrying & having a family, because that's just straight up not true. She is in fact very excited to hear about her future family in "The Fortuneteller." In other words, the writer is trying to force their own view of what Katara "should be" on her without a hint of irony.

      This isn’t to say either that women cannot be emotional, sensitive, and loving as well as a great leader and fighter, because the original series showed that Katara was all of those things. Just as much as they emphasized Katara’s role as a leader and fighter, the show also emphasized that Katara was sensitive, emotional, and loving.

      Which makes everything they've said up until now pointless, because they've constantly been hammering in this false dichotomy where they point to scenes of Katara fighting or strategizing & use it as evidence that she doesn't want to have a family, or support Aang--even when they're contradicted by this person's own summary, which included as one of its first points that she traveled to the North Pole to help Aang fight the Fire Nation!

      After devising strategies for war, thinking extensively about politics in their plans to end the war, it’s absurd to suggest that Katara would have ever settled down to be a homemaker.

      So I'm also noticing now that this person is seriously over-exaggerating Katara's role in the original series. To read this, you'd think that she was Aang, Sokka, & herself all rolled into one. While each of them contributed, Sokka was the most interested in strategy & Aang the most involved in politics simply because he had to be, as the Avatar. Outside of the Northern Tribe's sexist rules, & then later on in North & South, both which directly affected her, Katara didn't show that much interest in politics. Her role in terms of strategizing is somewhere between Aang's & Sokka's. Mostly, she's a support fighter, a healer, a teacher, & the Team Mom. Traits which, with the exception of "support fighter," she retains in the sequel.

      Even when Katara does appear in The Legend of Korra as an old woman, she is never consulted when help is needed to fight during the political struggles of the spinoff’s plot.

      Katara lives in a completely different part of the Water Tribe from where the Civil War is going on, & it's obviously not convenient to the animators--I mean her--for her to move across the world all of the time.

      She is never shown fighting even once, even when it would be more than appropriate for her to fight.

      Examples, of course, will not be given.

      Her old age, also, is by no means an excuse for her not fighting, as we see plenty of elderly people in the original series such as Hama, Bumi, Iroh, and Pakku who despite their advanced age are still able to fight and use their element bending just as powerfully, if not more powerfully, than the younger characters. To imply that Katara didn’t fight in The Legend of Korra because she was too old to do so is absurd and erases an unbelievable amount of canon evidence suggesting otherwise.

      As I already said, "inb4 someone mentions King Bumi as if he's the norm, when most people don't even live as long as he did." This person is, of course, leaving out that Hama got her ass kicked by Katara, Piandao outright said that his age negatively affected his agility, Iroh was considered out of shape relative to his prime (he also said he wasn't sure if he could beat his younger brother), & of course the number of elderly background characters who don't fight at all & were considered defenseless.

      The argument is not "old people are totally incapable of fighting," it's "older characters can't fight as well as they once did." Iroh is arguably the most proficient firebender in recent history, so measuring him against trash mobs is a biased comparison, the question is how he compares to HIS OWN youth. There's also the fact that age doesn't hit everyone equally, a fact exaggerated in Avatar, where we know of few characters who've lived half as long as Guru Pathik. Speaking of, while I'm not sure exactly how old Iroh is, most sources & estimates seem to put him in his mid 50's to mid 60's, which is still significantly younger than Katara in Legend of Korra. We can assume Katara likely has a life expectancy a bit longer than her brother's, & he's dead, so her body literally likely doesn't have much time left before it just gives out.

      No, it's not hard to come up with evidence that age doesn't affect fighting ability in Avatar--provided you're willing to cherry pick & ignore context. We know, for a fact that it does, it's confirmed by at least 1 character in-universe. Not that I have any idea why it NEEDED confirmation, because holy shit, it should be common sense that a few jacked old dudes doesn't prove that age in general "is just a number." This is something that sometimes happens in the real world too, but nobody disputes that age is an inevitable biological process that weakens our bodies irreparably.

      Again, I have every bit of respect for women who choose domestic paths in real life, but given this is a TV show that doesn’t exist in a sexism-free vacuum, my points, I believe, are relevant.

      I'm hesitant to bring this writer's personal views about real life women into this, but it seems odd to me that they feel the need to keep insisting that they don't have a problem with women who don't choose powerful careers. It's like they know they're coming across as bigoted & judgmental, in which case maybe they should look inward & ask why that is instead of constantly telling us not to suspect the obvious disdain for family women extends beyond fiction.

      Despite how large her family with Aang ended up being, we are given no indication that she had any career in politics or as a diplomat in either Legend of Korra or the canonical comic continuations. She is portrayed as having been nothing more than Aang’s wife as her life continued later on.

      [...]

      Both as a young girl past the end of the original show and as a woman with a family later on, Katara was written as as having no political, diplomatic, or even physical clout as a fighter in any way past the original series, and it shows a complete lack of respect towards her and those who were fans of her.

      Okay, now I can tell that this person isn't just unaware of the comics, they are actually being intentionally deceitful.

      After all the work Katara put in just to be able to fight in the first place, it’s impossible to believe that she would have been satisfied to sit in huts in her old age doing nothing but healing and dishing out morsels of wisdom.

      With every logical argument they can muster being exposed as fallacious when not outright lies, the only thing left to fall back on is the good ol' appeal to personal incredulity.

      It’s absurd, sexist, poor writing, and above all, a complete disservice to her as a character.

      So, to clean up by addressing the couple of points that haven't been covered yet because they were mostly just dropped in at the end to make their stinger sound more impressive, let's start with the accusation of sexism. I've checked the dates, this was written after the series concluded, & so the author knows damn well that Toph gets a fighting scene, that Zuko is also a largely behind the scenes character (& Sokka is just plain dead, nobody ever complains about the "unbelievability" of that), & this isn't even touching on all of the badass female characters of the subsequent generations, including the goddamned protagonist! Once again, this person is not only cherry picking & holding up a false dichotomy which implies that the show's characters must be either fighters or antifeminist, they're also being intentionally deceitful. In reality, they're just mad that Katara didn't steal the show, & they're willing to burn down its whole reputation to get back at it.

      Which brings us to the claim of "poor writing." While this person gives no real argument for why this would be the case, except I guess the contradictions that only exist in their mind, is there any form of writing shittier than having your cameo characters upstage your protagonists to appease their fanboys & fangirls? Probably, but it's stiff competition.

      So, LordPASCAL, citing this may have succeeded in occupying a significant chunk of my time, but it didn't help your point. If anything, hitching your wagon to this ostrich horse made it even more ridiculous, because it shows that you're willing to parrot someone who outright lies at several points just because they say what you want to hear. Frankly, I think you should just quit while you're lagging miles behind. Oh, & one tiny detail you seem to have missed: Even your character witness, as thoroughly uncredible as they are, doesn't go as far into absurdity as to make the claim that Katara didn't want to be a healer at all!

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    • You know, Iroh was not so old in ATLA, considering that Ozai was only 47, Iroh probably was around 50-54.

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    • Yep, but right now I'm just waiting for the inevitable "TL;DR," even though what I wrote when discounting the quotes is actually slightly shorter than the linked piece to begin with.

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    • Leaving the Katara conversation apart, look what I found about Ursa: I can't agree more:

      http://loopy777.livejournal.com/15207.html

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    • That sure is a Gish Gallop.

      Let's just go off of what the sleeve in the pond reveals. Obviously, Ursa will not let messiness get in the way of nurturing something. If she has to get her sleeve wet to feed a turtleduck for Zuko's viewing pleasure, then her sleeve gets wet. Moreover, Ursa does not place great value on her nice clothes. She apparently has access to replacements if she desires them, and doesn't consider mere material possessions to be worth being upset. At the same time, she values the clothes she wears in some way- even if it's because she's expected to wear them as a Princess- because she made the choice to wear them despite knowing that she was going to the pond where she could possibly get them wet or messy. That's character.

      That is literally nothing. I'd say this person is making wild leaps, but the truth is that it doesn't even rise to that level. This is a bloody horoscope. Whatever you want to think about Ursa, you can see it in this description, because it's so vague that it can apply to anyone. The argument being made here is literally "she cares about her clothes, but not too much." Gee, real insightful there, Spirit of the Mirror.

      It wasn't just being cut off from her children that broke her, it was the steady loss of everything she had. Does that seem to match a character who could be so carefree and happy in that scene, the very first scene the character ever gets in the story?

      Yes, because the whole point is we're seeing the isolated part of Ursa's life where she was happy. We know a bunch of other shit is going wrong behind the scenes because it's in the original show. Or was this person asleep when Ursa had to kill Azulon to save Zuko's life, & she was banished for her trouble?

      Actually, a huge amount of this could be summed up with the phrases "sweeping conclusions" & "false dichotomy." Huge swaths of this are the person taking a scene out of context & basically going "it either means this or it's inconsistent." Possibilities like "she genuinely likes Iroh & Lu Ten because they're the ones who aren't assholes" or "she's happy about this part of her life, but not others" don't seem to occur to this person.

      There's also a scene in the The Search where Ursa smiles at Zuko and seems to enjoy his presence, but then it's revealed that this incident is directly connected with Ursa's plan to strike back at Ozai for his years of abuse by making him think that Zuko is the son of another man.

      [citation needed]

      Who lived a life of such pain that all her memories of her children are hurtful?

      You know, you can claim writer cred all you want, it's not very convincing when you miss the entire point of multiple scenes. Ursa can't bear the memory of the children because they're a reminder of what she can no longer have.

      BK: Also, there was a time when it probably wasn't such a bad marriage. I think they probably started okay. Certainly better than it ended up.

      Pretty notable right there. While it's not clear when exactly they had the details ironed out, in this quote they're clearly leaving open the possibility that the marriage was never truly happy, but just "less bad."

      Ursa certainly isn't an Old White Lotus Man, but her backstory in The Search does show her as a poor peasant.

      It's actually not established what Ursa's position is, but it's probably not accurate to call her a peasant. Firstly, we know that her mother Ta Min was a noblewoman, & we have no reason to believe she lost that status. But did the writers forget? Not likely, considering evidence in the comic points to Ursa being rich as tits. She has nicer clothes than Ikem, complete with jewelry. More specifically, in Part 1, her father is described as a magistrate, while they own enough land to have a bigass green house on it. Like big enough to rival the houses she runs past on her way home. So, relative to the town they live in, her family's friggin' loaded. It's like this person did absolutely no research at all, & if they read the comic, didn't really pay much attention to it.

      Again, we've not run into any contradictory facts, but

      Y'know, I think this says it all. This person knows for a fact that there's no contradiction in these portrayals, but they want there to be, so they resort to making shit up.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      That sure is a Gish Gallop.
      Let's just go off of what the sleeve in the pond reveals. Obviously, Ursa will not let messiness get in the way of nurturing something. If she has to get her sleeve wet to feed a turtleduck for Zuko's viewing pleasure, then her sleeve gets wet. Moreover, Ursa does not place great value on her nice clothes. She apparently has access to replacements if she desires them, and doesn't consider mere material possessions to be worth being upset. At the same time, she values the clothes she wears in some way- even if it's because she's expected to wear them as a Princess- because she made the choice to wear them despite knowing that she was going to the pond where she could possibly get them wet or messy. That's character.
      That is literally nothing. I'd say this person is making wild leaps, but the truth is that it doesn't even rise to that level. This is a bloody horoscope. Whatever you want to think about Ursa, you can see it in this description, because it's so vague that it can apply to anyone. The argument being made here is literally "she cares about her clothes, but not too much." Gee, real insightful there, Spirit of the Mirror.


      It wasn't just being cut off from her children that broke her, it was the steady loss of everything she had. Does that seem to match a character who could be so carefree and happy in that scene, the very first scene the character ever gets in the story?

      Yes, because the whole point is we're seeing the isolated part of Ursa's life where she was happy. We know a bunch of other shit is going wrong behind the scenes because it's in the original show. Or was this person asleep when Ursa had to kill Azulon to save Zuko's life, & she was banished for her trouble?

      Actually, a huge amount of this could be summed up with the phrases "sweeping conclusions" & "false dichotomy." Huge swaths of this are the person taking a scene out of context & basically going "it either means this or it's inconsistent." Possibilities like "she genuinely likes Iroh & Lu Ten because they're the ones who aren't assholes" or "she's happy about this part of her life, but not others" don't seem to occur to this person.


      There's also a scene in the The Search where Ursa smiles at Zuko and seems to enjoy his presence, but then it's revealed that this incident is directly connected with Ursa's plan to strike back at Ozai for his years of abuse by making him think that Zuko is the son of another man.

      [citation needed]


      Who lived a life of such pain that all her memories of her children are hurtful?

      You know, you can claim writer cred all you want, it's not very convincing when you miss the entire point of multiple scenes. Ursa can't bear the memory of the children because they're a reminder of what she can no longer have.


      BK: Also, there was a time when it probably wasn't such a bad marriage. I think they probably started okay. Certainly better than it ended up.

      Pretty notable right there. While it's not clear when exactly they had the details ironed out, in this quote they're clearly leaving open the possibility that the marriage was never truly happy, but just "less bad."


      Ursa certainly isn't an Old White Lotus Man, but her backstory in The Search does show her as a poor peasant.

      It's actually not established what Ursa's position is, but it's probably not accurate to call her a peasant. Firstly, we know that her mother Ta Min was a noblewoman, & we have no reason to believe she lost that status. But did the writers forget? Not likely, considering evidence in the comic points to Ursa being rich as tits. She has nicer clothes than Ikem, complete with jewelry. More specifically, in Part 1, her father is described as a magistrate, while they own enough land to have a bigass green house on it. Like big enough to rival the houses she runs past on her way home. So, relative to the town they live in, her family's friggin' loaded. It's like this person did absolutely no research at all, & if they read the comic, didn't really pay much attention to it.


      Again, we've not run into any contradictory facts, but

      Y'know, I think this says it all. This person knows for a fact that there's no contradiction in these portrayals, but they want there to be, so they resort to making shit 

      Rude and immature to insult him just because he wanted to start a debate

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    • The only one insulting people here is you. If you think something I said was false, feel free to explain how, but stop following me to threads just to do nothing but call me "rude and immature." That has nothing to do with the actual topic.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      The only one insulting people here is you. If you think something I said was false, feel free to explain how, but stop following me to threads just to do nothing but call me "rude and immature." That has nothing to do with the actual topic.

      I was stating an opinon, I did explain, I said I thought it was rude and immature to insult someone from wanting to start a debate.

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    • Issy Evergreen wrote:
      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      The only one insulting people here is you. If you think something I said was false, feel free to explain how, but stop following me to threads just to do nothing but call me "rude and immature." That has nothing to do with the actual topic.
      I was stating an opinon, I did explain, I said I thought it was rude and immature to insult someone from wanting to start a debate.

      But Neo was not insulting anyone.

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    • Ninja72 wrote:
      Issy Evergreen wrote:
      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      The only one insulting people here is you. If you think something I said was false, feel free to explain how, but stop following me to threads just to do nothing but call me "rude and immature." That has nothing to do with the actual topic.
      I was stating an opinon, I did explain, I said I thought it was rude and immature to insult someone from wanting to start a debate.
      But Neo was not insulting anyone.

      When I posted one It looked like one to me, I don't want to start a thread arguement though but in my PoV it was an insult, and then he said I followed him when I disagreed Glass could be bent but whatever.

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    • I said to stop following me to threads just to call me "rude and immature," something you've done at least twice now. I didn't say that the general "contradict Neo no matter what he says" thing you've been doing was part of it, so it's interesting you made that connection yourself. Regardless, if you don't want an argument, here's a simple solution: Quit arguing. Especially when your entire contribution is personal attacks, which you're not supposed to be doing anyway.

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    • An anonymous contributor
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