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  • PSUAvatar14
    PSUAvatar14 closed this thread because:
    Runaround debate going nowhere, no need to revive
    02:31, February 11, 2014

    Hoo boy, I'm going to be opening a pandoras box with this one.

    Toph angry
    But I'd like to know how the rest of the fanbase feels about this. . . assumption people have of Tophs character.

    I've seen several users on this wiki say they think Toph is a Transgender character. Of course I do not represent anyone in said group, nor do I have anything to lose or gain by posting this. But I feel that Assumption is not an accurate attribution to her character.

    I bring this up because User Hasdi Bravo has stated that he believes Toph in a live action film should favor in casting Male actor Issac Jin Solstein in the role of Toph, since Toph is a "Boy In A Girls Body".

    But I do not believe this is an accurate attribution to her character. There is evidence in the show to support that Toph is NOT transgender. The following is MY opinion alright? If you do not agree I understang perfectly. I am not attacking you if you do not share my opinion, I am trying to promote proper understanding behind my argument.

    • 1 Toph NEVER expressed feelings of resentment towards her gender, or ever directly said she felt like a "Boy In A Girls Body".
    Toph, Katara, and Sokka





    • 2* She Clearly expressed interest in the opposite sex on various occasions, her crush on Sokka for instance. or the fact that she HAD A DAUGHTER!
    Lin Beifong





    • 3* She clearly enjoyed participating in (stereotypical) girlish activities with Katara from time to time. The Day Spa short in Tales of Ba-Sing-Se is a perfect example. Although i'm sure there are others
    Katara and Toph at spa





    • 4* She outright stated in Book 3: "City of Walls and Secrets. That she deliberately acts against Female stereotypes because she hates being held to high expectations placed upon her as a member of the upper class. 
    Toph picking her nose
    I learned proper society behavior and chose to leave it.You never learned anything. And frankly, it's a little too late.





    • 5* It's a Y7 Show. The issue is (mostly) irrelevant given the restrictions placed upon Nickelodeon and Bryke by the rating. Not to mention I doubt Bryan and Mike thought about it that much when they decided to make Toph a girl.
    Actor Toph






    Below I'm going to be paraphrasing a comment from another user so bear with me.

    Where in the world did (people) get the idea that Toph was a transgender boy?

    Nothing in Avatar ever said that Toph dislikes/disagrees the idea of herself being a female as such (just the sexist stereotypes associated with being a "proper" lady), Your argument, will convince no Toph fan whatsoever.

    - - -

    What do you guys think? IS Toph Bei-Fong Transgender? Just A Tomboy? My message walls are open to Bender and Equalist alike.

    Hoo boy. . . . the comments are going to be interesting for this one.

    RaidenRadio, taking cover and rolling out.

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    • Toph is just a tomboy. And there is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure she grew out of it as an adult.

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    • Steph32597s wrote:
      Toph is just a tomboy. And there is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure she grew out of it as an adult.

      Exactly this. Seriously, Toph just acts boyish, but she's never shown any sort of disgust or disdain toward other girls. She's still shown her girly side around Katara and even Sokka and other guys. I don't know why people think that she is, when she's never shown any desire to be a boy or any dissatisfaction in being a girl. I feel that, in today's society, simply acting different from the norm and being something different from the steroetype that your society has stashed upon you leads to crazy assumptions. I mean, Toph still does act like a girl. There is a huge difference between a tomboy and a transgendered girl to a boy. Toph is just a tough girl who likes being blunt and straightforward. However, to say that she is transgendered just because she doesn't act like a perky girl all the time is completely ridiculous. Come to think of it, Katara and Azula (especially Azula) both have their "manly" moments, far moreso than even Toph's. Toph still comes off as and acts as a girl.

      Perhaps some people make this assumption, because her original character design really was a boy and because her role in Ember Island Players was one and she agreed with it. However, I'd deem the both of them inappropriate examples, because even Azula was originally supposed to be aboy, but is obviously now known to us all as a girl. As for the play, almost all of the roles were completely off. Katara is not nearly that ridiculously sensitive, nor promiscuous; Aang is a boy and is not always happy and perky; Sokka makes jokes than other things besides meat; Iroh isn't a useless glutton who has nothing better to do with his time than stuff his face with cake.

      So, in short, I completely disagree that Toph is transgendered. She's never shown any serious signs that would imply so.

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    • Besides, her parents aren't that mean. I don't think they'd make a son act like a daughter, or vice versa. That's just cruel.

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    • Please know that just because Toph is a "boy stuck in a girl's body" does not mean she will not be interested in boys. Case in point, Larry Wachowski identified herself as a transgender woman, changed her name to Lana Wachowski, but she is still married to a woman (though she declined to reveal if she opt to have her male genitals removed). Even then, I argue that Toph was never interested in Sokka. When she kissed who she thought was Sokka in the Serpent's Pass episode, it was more of a male-joke-bonding thing. Toph blushed when she found out that she kissed Suki instead, as any shy boy would. So there. Eusa_snooty.gif

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    • Steph32597s wrote: Toph is just a tomboy. And there is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure she grew out of it as an adult.

      Phieuw! When i saw this post i was WHAT? And luckily, someone agrees with me.

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    • 1. the creators were originally going to have toph be male. her old character design was the earthbender in the opening sequence. then they changed her to a girl, and had that old design be used for roku's earthbending teacher (Sud). why would they renege on that?

      2. we know for a fact that toph isn't transgender. in korra's flashback of yakonne during her kidnapping, toph was female, and this was after she had given birth to lin.

      3. she did have a crush on sokka, end of story. she blushed when she realized it was suki b/c she realized she had just told her crush's (sokka) girlfriend (suki) by flirting that she liked her (suki) boyfriend (sokka). i put the names in parenthesis b/c after reading it i realized it could be confusing.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      we know for a fact that toph isn't transgender. in korra's flashback of yakonne during her kidnapping, toph was female, and this was after she had given birth to lin.

      See this news article Transgender man gives birth in Germany dated 11 Sep 2013. "A transgender man has given birth to his first child in Germany and wants to be registered as the baby's father." Still, have we still established that scene was before or after Lin was born?

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      1. the creators were originally going to have toph be male. her old character design was the earthbender in the opening sequence. then they changed her to a girl, and had that old design be used for roku's earthbending teacher (Sud). why would they renege on that?

      2. we know for a fact that toph isn't transgender. in korra's flashback of yakonne during her kidnapping, toph was female, and this was after she had given birth to lin.

      3. she did have a crush on sokka, end of story. she blushed when she realized it was suki b/c she realized she had just told her crush's (sokka) girlfriend (suki) by flirting that she liked her (suki) boyfriend (sokka). i put the names in parenthesis b/c after reading it i realized it could be confusing.

      Exactly.

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    • Hasdi wrote:
      Please know that just because Toph is a "boy stuck in a girl's body" does not mean she will not be interested in boys. Case in point, Larry Wachowski identified herself as a transgender woman, changed her name to Lana Wachoski, but she is still married to a woman (though she declined to reveal if she opt to have her male genitals removed). Even then, I argue that Toph was never interested in Sokka. When she kissed who she thought was Sokka in the Serpent's Pass episode, it was more of a male-joke-bonding thing. Toph blushed when she found out that she kissed Suki instead, as any shy boy would. So there. Eusa_snooty.gif

      She blushed, because she was awkward and embarrassed that it wasn't Sokka. She said, "oh, Sokka, you saved me" and then smooched him on the face. That is completley different from blushing lie "oh, yeah, I just got kissed by a girl". She was embarrassed and pushed herself away and said "oh, you can go ahead and let me drown, now". I mean, seriously, there is a significant difference between transgendered and tomboy.

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    • You know, whether Toph likes boys or girls is totally irrelevant on her transgender nature, just like the case with Lana Wachowski. Besides, I never got that "I have a crush on Sokka" vibe when she said "Oh Sokka, you saved me!" in that episode. Toph is not jealous of Suki and any romance she has with Sokka is just bro-mance. Are you feelin' me yo? Icon_thumbup.gif

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    • Hasdi wrote:
      You know, whether Toph likes boys or girls is totally irrelevant on her transgender nature, just like the case with Lana Wachowski. Besides, I never got that "I have a crush on Sokka" vibe when she said "Oh Sokka, you saved me!" in that episode. Toph is not jealous of Suki and any romance she has with Sokka is just bro-mance. Are you feelin' me yo? Icon_thumbup.gif

      I respect that, but I disagree.

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    • i must say hasdi, i'm not feeling ya. and yes, we can prove that lin was born before the flashback.

      lin is circa 50 yrs. old.

      the events of the hundred year war happened 70 yrs. ago.

      aang and toph were 12 when that happened.

      tarrlok was 37 yrs. old, and it takes time to escape from prison and recover from plastic surgery.

      therefore, lin was born 20 years after the events of the hundred year war, when aang and toph were 32 years old.

      therefore, the yakone issue happened about 40 years ago, 30 years after the hundred year war, and 10 years after lin was born.

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    • and on that german dude(tte), regardless of what it says on the birth certificate, if s/he contributed the egg, then s/he's the child's mother.

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    • Hasdi wrote: You know, whether Toph likes boys or girls is totally irrelevant on her transgender nature, just like the case with Lana Wachowski. Besides, I never got that "I have a crush on Sokka" vibe when she said "Oh Sokka, you saved me!" in that episode. Toph is not jealous of Suki and any romance she has with Sokka is just bro-mance. Are you feelin' me yo? Icon_thumbup.gif

      No, I'm still not feelin' you. I agree that it's irrelevant on her being transgendered or not. However, there was not point in the series when she showed any sort of disdain toward the female sex or toward being a girl. Nor did she ever show any desire to be a boy. She never said anything along the lines "I hate girls. Boys are way cooler to hang out with.". No, she just didn't like beings. Delicate, plastic dots or conceding to society's stereotypes of what he perfect lady should be. She was just a tomboy and there's also the fact that she was 12 and immature. As for the crush on Sokka, I wasn't tying that to being transgendered. But I was saying that she does have a crush. When Sokka was gone for swordsmanship training, then she turned away and blushed when she said that she'd never missed him. She acted like a girl throughout the show, as well. A delicate flower or princess, no. But basically still a girl, emotionally, physically, and expressively, yes she came off as a girl. I never saw her as trying to be a dude. Hell, we could use Aang's effeminate nature to argue that he's transgendered, as well, but the fact that of the matter is that, just like Aang is just girlies than most his boys his age but still emotionally and physically a boy, Toph is a tomboy and more boyish than girls her age, but still emotionally and physically a girl.

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    • I never really figured her for a transgender. I feel like if she was, she would actively masquerade as such while disguised or try and identify more with the males of the group. For instance, while fighting as the Blind Bandit, she made no attempt to disguise her gender to the other fighters. If she truly felt like a male in a female body, that would have probably been the perfect venue for pulling an Arya Stark.

      I think we just need to remember that just because a girl acts like the traditional idea of a boy, or vise versa, they don't necessarily wish to be the other sex.

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    • The Air Nomad Critic wrote: I never really figured her for a transgender. I feel like if she was, she would actively masquerade as such while disguised or try and identify more with the males of the group. For instance, while fighting as the Blind Bandit, she made no attempt to disguise her gender to the other fighters. If she truly felt like a male in a female body, that would have probably been the perfect venue for pulling an Arya Stark.

      I think we just need to remember that just because a girl acts like a boy, or vise versa, they don't necessarily wish to be the other sex.

      QFT! Agreed 100%!

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    • I think we have wait for The Rift to come out before we can better settle this. Korra as a tomboy is something I can agree with but Toph as transgender boy is not something we can easily rule out. I think the lady of that statue will tie in to Toph's story of coming into terms with her nature. Denial, of course, is a natural response, as evidenced from the replies here. We have to keep our minds open to the possibilities, e.g., Toph visiting the spirit world to undergo an equivalent to a sex change operation in the Book of "Changes". Icon_think.gif

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    • When has Toph ever even indicated that she wants to be a boy, even subconciously? She's never been mistaken for a boy or asked people to refer to her with a different pronoun. There has been no indication of conflict of nature with her, at least not any more than Korra. From where I stand, she's just as much a tomboy as the modern Avatar.

      Again, just because someone acts like the traditional opposite gender does not mean they actually want to be the opposite gender. Things aren't that black and white there.

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    • The Air Nomad Critic wrote:
      When has Toph ever even indicated that she wants to be a boy, even subconciously?
      Toph:    Wait a minute, I sound like a guy. A really buff guy.
      Katara: Well Toph, what you hear up there is the truth. It hurts, doesn't it?
      Toph: Are you kidding me? I wouldn't have cast it any other way!
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    • Really....this is a thing....?

      I'm all for a trans, gay or bi character in Avatar but really? This is a thing?

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    • She also thought Aang being played by a girl was perfectly appropriate. Plays often did and do that to this day to get masculine or feminine characteristics across, something Toph is likely familiar with being raised in a higher class. It was probably a relief for her to not be portrayed as a scared little girl who just wants more (a tempting angle for the propaganda heavy production), and by a butt-kicking masculine actor who could probably better reflect her nature than any over the top actress the troupe had.

      Honestly, if this is the best evidence there is, I'll lump the Toph transgender angle in with Ty Lee being an Air Nomad descendant and Katara secretly having a crush on Zuko: headcanon, and nothing more.

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    • well said tanc, well said.

      hasdi, why on earth would the 8 pg preview from the rift add to the "evidence" you've compiled for toph becoming transgender?

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    • The Air Nomad Critic wrote:
      She also thought Aang being played by a girl was perfectly appropriate. Plays often did and do that to this day to get masculine or feminine characteristics across, something Toph is likely familiar with being raised in a higher class. It was probably a relief for her to not be portrayed as a scared little girl who just wants more (a tempting angle for the propaganda heavy production), and by a butt-kicking masculine actor who could probably better reflect her nature than any over the top actress the troupe had.

      Honestly, if this is the best evidence there is, I'll lump the Toph transgender angle in with Ty Lee being an Air Nomad descendant and Katara secretly having a crush on Zuko: headcanon, and nothing more.

      Hasdi, look at this! You have nothing to say

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    • ad-hominem attacks and confrontational replies are highly frowned upon on this wiki.

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    • Oops sorry, will never do again.

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    • I bring this up because User Hasdi Bravo has stated that he believes Toph in a live action film should favor in casting Male actor Issac Jin Solstein in the role of Toph, since Toph is a "Boy In A Girls Body".

      Even if it was true, this is a moot point, because casting a cisgender actor for a transgender role is considered offensive by the trans community.

      5* It's a Y7 Show. The issue is (mostly) irrelevant given the restrictions placed upon Nickelodeon and Bryke by the rating. Not to mention I doubt Bryan and Mike thought about it that much when they decided to make Toph a girl.

      Don't think this matters so much with Under the Radar, but it should be noted that Mike & Bryan have commented on the decision to make Toph a girl, & have never expressed anything about her being transgender whatsoever.

      Please know that just because Toph is a "boy stuck in a girl's body" does not mean she will not be interested in boys.

      The problem here is not whether transmen can or cannot be interested in boys, it is that you are tailoring the evidence to fit the bizarre assumption. First of all, this would make "her" transgender AND gay, which is something that you've never said, so you're shifting the goal posts. Secondly, you consider every instance of her acting slightly boyish to be evidence of her "transgender" status, but conveniently declare every instance of her conforming to "female" behavior to be irrelevant. Not only is this biased, it's an argument built from stereotypes. What you're ignoring, which is ironic considering the feminist bend of the show--or perhaps not so ironic, considering Shyamalan clearly didn't consider it important either--is that what Toph rejects is the social expectations thrust on her for being a girl. Transgender...ism, by contrast, involves body dysphoria--the feeling of being detached from one's body. It is akin to the 1900's argument that the Suffragettes were "trying to be men."

      This makes it very much relevant that Toph doesn't even TRY to hide her femaleness as an adult. While there are reasons for transgenders IRL to try to pass for cisgender, we have to remember that this is a fictional universe, & Toph can only be transgender to the extent which it is conveyed by the writers. Since they can't outright say that Toph is transgender, not portraying her flat-chested as an adult--implying either breast reduction or the use of a breast binder--is an opportunity that I think they're smart enough not to miss if that's really what they want her to be.

      Of course, we all know that the real reason for this argument is a bizarre attempt to defend a potential casting for Toph in the now-moot "Last Airbender 2." Which makes it even worse.

      I think we have wait for The Rift to come out before we can better settle this. Korra as a tomboy is something I can agree with but Toph as transgender boy is not something we can easily rule out. I think the lady of that statue will tie in to Toph's story of coming into terms with her nature

      No. We have seen Toph as an adult. She does not try to live as a man. "The Rift" is not going to say anything about her being transgender. Full stop. But you're going to say it does, because that's what a crack theorist does: Continue to defend the theory despite the mounting, overwhelming evidence against it.

      Really....this is a thing....? I'm all for a trans, gay or bi character in Avatar but really? This is a thing?

      It isn't. As far as I know, the only person around here supporting it is Hasdi. I'm sure it has some supporters on Tumblr, but then again, you can find supporters on Tumblr for anything.

      The following is MY opinion alright? If you do not agree I understang perfectly. I am not attacking you if you do not share my opinion, I am trying to promote proper understanding behind my argument.

      I'm going to go a step further than this. This is NOT my opinion, it is empirical FACT. Unless someone can bring some proper evidence that Toph being transgender actually IS the case, then I take it about as seriously as I would an argument that Momo can secretly talk.

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    • Nicely said, I agree with you.

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    • Momo talking? YES! Same with toys. They come to life at night and dance. XD

      Besides, would Bryke really go so far into the new age ideas for that? Not that transgender is new age, but on a kid's show is a big deal.

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    • I don't agree that it's a "big deal" or "too far," I just don't agree that it's happening. Sort of the difference in the response that I would have if "Bryke Should Make Korrasami Canon" was instead "Korrasami IS Canon!"

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    • I personally don't think it's a big deal, but I know some parents would freak out. I bet by the time the current sixteen and seventeen year-olds are in their mid twenties, it won't be such an uncommon thing.

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    • Unfortunately, I think that's a bit optimistic. It's generally agreed upon that transgenders are currently one of the most disliked minorities in the west.

      To make this post not completely depressing, here's a kitten running through some flowers:

      https://www.austintexas.gov/sites/default/files/files/Animal_Services/cute-kitten-playing.jpg

      EDIT: You'll have to copy/paste. The link shows up as some huge picture, without the "nowiki" tag.

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    • The Air Nomad Critic wrote:
      She also thought Aang being played by a girl was perfectly appropriate.

      There is a difference with a girl playing a male character, and "really buff guy" playing a male character.

      Neo Bahamut:
      Of course, we all know that the real reason for this argument is a bizarre attempt to defend a potential casting for Toph in the now-moot "Last Airbender 2."

      Irrelevant, bro. See above. I am perfectly fine if Isaac plays a girl rather than a transgender boy, though I do feel the latter will be an inspired choice.

      Intelligence4 wrote:
      hasdi, why on earth would the 8 pg preview from the rift add to the "evidence" you've compiled for toph becoming transgender?

      I said of the 8-page preview that "the lady statue without the arrow tattoo is being foreshadowed so she will play an important role in the Rift as well as Toph," which is NOT evidence in itself that Toph is a transgender. However, I do suspect the Rift will reveal more about Toph transgender nature than they have in the past. Icon_idea.gif

      Steph32597s wrote:
      I personally don't think it's a big deal, but I know some parents would freak out.

      Right on, mate. Come on guys, it won't be the end of the world! I think it will great if this is made canon. It will as ground-breaking as when Northstar was established as gay in 1992.

      Honestly, I don't know whether to be highly amused or disappointed at the over-reaction here. Not pointing fingers to any specific dissenters on this thread, but I am perplexed that it is acceptable for some fans to droll over the prospect of making Korrasami canon, but the mere possibility of Toph being a transgender have their balls shrink to the size of raisins. Eusa_snooty.gif

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    • Hasdi, I don't want to offend you, but your posts are a sick.....sick.....sick. 

      Sorry, I just had to say that.

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    • There is a difference with a girl playing a male character, and "really buff guy" playing a male character.

      This is just a cop out. Seriously, you're just dismissing Aang being played as a woman out of hand. You don't explain WHY we should count Toph being played as a man, but not Aang being played as a woman. You just say that it's "different."

      Irrelevant, bro. See above. I am perfectly fine if Isaac plays a girl rather than a transgender boy, though I do feel the latter will be an inspired choice.

      So this "Toph is transgender argument" did not originate from Isaac's casting?

      Right on, mate. Come on guys, it won't be the end of the world! I think it will great if this is made canon. It will as ground-breaking as when Northstar was established as gay in 1992. Honestly, I don't know whether to be highly amused or disappointed at the over-reaction here. Not pointing fingers to any specific dissenters on this thread, but I am perplexed that it is acceptable for some fans to droll over the prospect of making Korrasami canon, but the mere possibility of Toph being a transgender have their balls shrink to the size of raisins. Eusa_snooty.gif

      Don't even try to call people out on bias & hypocrisy, you just look ridiculous. You haven't said one word to all of the comments asking why you'll count the stereotypes that are in your favor as "evidence," but not the ones against you. This is just another example of you resorting to ad hominem because you've got nothing.

      Not one person expressed dislike of the idea of there BEING a transgender character, & as I quite eloquently explained, the difference between the thread "Bryke should make Korrasami canon" & your argument is that the former recognizes that Korrasami IS NOT canon, & tries to argue that it should be true. YOU don't recognize the facts, & THAT is why I'm obliterating your argument.

      Toph cannot be outed as transgender in The Rift, because she clearly still presents as female as an adult. Your argument is simply wrong. It has nothing to do with bias or transphobia, so stop telling lies.

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    • <perplexed>

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    • Who are you talking too?

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    • Hasdi. I am not in the habit of using quote tags to refer to fragments of posts, so I don't know how to label who said what.

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    • Ok, now i'm relieved.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      So this "Toph is transgender argument" did not originate from Isaac's casting?

      Again, irrelevant. Toph can be a tomboy in ATLA but a transgender boy in M.Night's movie. It won't be the first time we have gender-bending in an adaptation or a reboot series, e.g., the "reimagined" Battlestar Galactica.

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      the difference between the thread "Bryke should make Korrasami canon" & your argument is that the former recognizes that Korrasami IS NOT canon, & tries to argue that it should be true. YOU don't recognize the facts, & THAT is why I'm obliterating your argument.

      Let me be clear. In the existing canon, Toph is a tomboy. I am saying there is room and hints to establish otherwise in future storylines. Until then, we will not edit it as fact on this wiki. Likewise, Northstar being gay is not a fact until it was established in Alpha Flight #106. Until that issue, John Byrne could only imply his lack of interest in women was due to his obsession to win as a ski champion, due to Marvel's policy and comic codes back then. But hey, it's fine with me if they are going to stick with Toph being a tomboy. She will still be my favorite character in ATLA. Icon_biggrin.gif

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    • "Again, irrelevant."

      No it isn't. You must have had a reason to start building this case. I contend that it was the casting of the movie.

      "Let me be clear. In the existing canon, Toph is a tomboy."

      Well...good!

      ...Lost a bit of steam, there. But these terms are fine with me. Just as long as we're clear that the facts are the facts, & (so far) people are arguing based on those facts, not anti-trans bias.

      "I am saying there is room and hints to establish otherwise in future storylines."

      It would take a lot of retconning, but I suppose.

      "Likewise, Northstar being gay is not a fact until it was established in Alpha Flight #106."

      I would say that this is irrelevant. I don't even know who this is to comment on the writing. In general, I do not like comic writing. More to the point, comparisons between series are not easy. Something that "works" in one series, if it even does, may not work in another.

      There were a couple of times in the Korrasami thread where I thought about bringing up Willow, but didn't want to reference a show that I know from experience that not everyone on this Wiki watches--& really, I didn't watch until about last year--& also frankly you have to accept the canon not being so solid in the first place. Willow being gay wasn't exactly the only thing in Buffy that was "totally true the whole time, even though nobody knew."

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      You must have had a reason to start building this case. I contend that it was the casting of the movie.

      It wasn't to justify Isaac's casting as Toph. A female actress is as qualified as he to play a transgender boy if Toph is indeed one. Isaac just happens to be one of the few androgynous actors out there who can play a female or male character. Maybe M.Night said "Screw it! If I can't find the right Chinese girl to play a tomboy, then this Korean kid who looks like girl will have to do." Then I thought, what if Toph is not a tomboy but a transgender boy in ATLA? I looked at the possibility and I see a compelling case for it, albeit not established as canon yet. Even then, Isaac could easily be playing a tomboyish girl and nothing will really change.

      Neo Bahamut wrote:
      There were a couple of times in the Korrasami thread where I thought about bringing up Willow, but didn't want to reference a show that I know from experience that not everyone on this Wiki watches--& really, I didn't watch until about last year--& also frankly you have to accept the canon not being so solid in the first place. Willow being gay wasn't exactly the only thing in Buffy that was "totally true the whole time, even though nobody knew."

      It might be a retcon but to be fair, Joss Whedon foreshadowed Willow's homosexuality in the Doppelgangland episode in Season 3 before establishing it in Season 4. Who knows what really goes on in that twisted mind of his. Icon_wtf.gif

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    • "Snipped explanations."

      I will concede that the casting of TLA2 is irrelevant to your argument, but disagree with basically everything else in here, which would take way too long to go over individually, especially considering that much of it has already been said.

      "It might be a retcon but to be fair, Joss Whedon foreshadowed Willow's homosexuality in the Doppelgangland episode in Season 3 before establishing it in Season 4. Who knows what really goes on in that twisted mind of his. Icon_wtf.gif"

      He did & he did not. It's been commented on pretty extensively by people both involved & not involved with the show.

      What is essentially said by Whedon & his coworkers is that there was never a plan to make Willow gay, but there WAS a plan to make SOMEONE gay--specifically, it was either going to be Xander or Willow. That's why there's a few "are they or aren't they" for both of them, such as Larry(?) turning out to be gay &, thinking that Xander is also coming out to him, says that "I must have seen something in you that reminded me of myself." This apparently reached its fruition in Season 4, when they decided to just go with the subtext in Tara's & Willow's scenes.

      But fans bring up a very good point: Why is Willow specifically gay, & why are her past heterosexual tendencies never explained? Some would say, "Oh, well, why does she need to explain that," but again, FICTIONAL WORLD, you explain things like that either in spite of or because of the fact that you wouldn't expect them to be explained in reality. Another good reason to question why she wasn't made bisexual is that Vampire Willow, who supposedly foreshadows her coming out, actually IS.

      But, like I said, it was far from the only thing that was relatively out of nowhere in that continuity, Tarawillow is my OTP, & Joss Whedon constantly made fun of himself for it anyway, so I'm okay with it in the end.

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    • Intelligence 4, from another thread:

      neo pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one.

      not liking to wear frilly dresses doesn't make you a tomboy, nor does liking to stay inside. besides, those were thing that toph was forced to do, not something your average girl is forced to do.

      i'd even go so far as to say toph wasn't a tomboy but just a girl with no manners whatsoever....maybe.

      Nah, I'd say that she is a tomboy. She does express a dislike of "girly things." But this stems more from preconceived notions about what "girliness" IS, not gender dysphoria. It would be like arguing that the fact that purple is my favorite color is a sign that I'm a transwoman, because purple is often arbitrarily labeled as a "girly color."

      Actually, humorously enough, you could build up a similar "case" about me, if you wanted to:

      • Purple is my favorite color.
      • I plan to remove my facial hair through lasers & possibly electrolysis, which is a step on the "transition."
      • I have occasionally expressed a belief that I'm somewhat effeminate.
      • I dislike sports & other displays of "manliness."
      • I am prone to making very vocal feminist arguments.
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    • I agree that Toph is a tomboy, but she is like that because she wants to be either rebelious or trying to be different.

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    • AvatarCorin34 wrote:
      Really....this is a thing....?

      I'm all for a trans, gay or bi character in Avatar but really? This is a thing?


      Haha I know, right?! Toph has never shown any signs of not being female in her whole life.

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    • Hasdi wrote:
      The Air Nomad Critic wrote:
      When has Toph ever even indicated that she wants to be a boy, even subconciously?
      Toph:    Wait a minute, I sound like a guy. A really buff guy.
      Katara: Well Toph, what you hear up there is the truth. It hurts, doesn't it?
      Toph: Are you kidding me? I wouldn't have cast it any other way!


      Toph also thought that portraying Aang as a girl, Katara as a damsel in distress who had promiscuous tendencies, and Sokka as a clueless failure who could only make terrible jokes about meat, were all accurate portrayals. That whole episode was comic relief and not meant to be taken too seriously.

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    • TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Hasdi wrote:
      The Air Nomad Critic wrote:
      When has Toph ever even indicated that she wants to be a boy, even subconciously?
      Toph:    Wait a minute, I sound like a guy. A really buff guy.
      Katara: Well Toph, what you hear up there is the truth. It hurts, doesn't it?
      Toph: Are you kidding me? I wouldn't have cast it any other way!

      Toph also thought that portraying Aang as a girl, Katara as a damsel in distress who had promiscuous tendencies, and Sokka as a clueless failure who could only make terrible jokes about meat, were all accurate portrayals. That whole episode was comic relief and not meant to be taken too seriously.

      Yea, come on guys, don't take that video clip seriously. 

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    • Hahaha! Oh, wait. People are serious about this? Is this the Avatar Wiki or Tumblr? What is it with this fanbase picking apart and/or finding offense in every character's gender/race/eye color/shoe size, and why do they call themselves fans of the show?

      I'd hazard a guess that most of the people arguing for it are trolling. They've made Toph's character pretty clear. A transgender appearing on Avatar isn't out of the question, but it's definitely not Toph. Lol.

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    • Well it's supposed to be a fan wiki, but I see there are some users that are critics.

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    • AtkaSura wrote: Hahaha! Oh, wait. People are serious about this? Is this the Avatar Wiki or Tumblr? What is it with this fanbase picking apart and/or finding offense in every character's gender/race/eye color/shoe size, and why do they call themselves fans of the show?

      I'd hazard a guess that most of the people arguing for it are trolling. They've made Toph's character pretty clear. A transgender appearing on Avatar isn't out of the question, but it's definitely not Toph. Lol.

      SERIOUSLY! I know, right?!

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    • Especially to Hasdi

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    • Cat Girl Blizzard wrote:
      Especially to Hasdi

      I resent that. I am contrarian, not a troll. Eusa_snooty.gif

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    • LOL ok, ok.

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    • I didn't say you were a troll.

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    • AtkaSura wrote:
      Hahaha! Oh, wait. People are serious about this? Is this the Avatar Wiki or Tumblr? What is it with this fanbase picking apart and/or finding offense in every character's gender/race/eye color/shoe size, and why do they call themselves fans of the show?

      I'd hazard a guess that most of the people arguing for it are trolling. They've made Toph's character pretty clear. A transgender appearing on Avatar isn't out of the question, but it's definitely not Toph. Lol.


      Exactly! Thats all I'm Saying!

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    • Cat Girl Blizzard
      Cat Girl Blizzard removed this reply because:
      It is a blank slot.
      12:21, January 21, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • .....
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    • Cat Girl Blizzard
      Cat Girl Blizzard removed this reply because:
      It doesn't mean anything, I wrote it.
      12:15, January 21, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • putting a colon in front causes it to indent. rather frustrating when trying to make an emoticon. you can edit/remove your post by hovering over the lower-right hand corner and clicking on more.

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    • Thanks a lot. 

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    • RaidenRadio wrote:
      Exactly! Thats all I'm Saying!

      And I thought you are more interested in having a serious discussion than another trolling accusation. Eusa_snooty.gif The null hypothesis is that Toph is a tomboy, so it will remain as fact on this wiki at this time. However, I maintain that Toph has been nicely set up to be established as a transgender in future storylines. Whether Nick has the balls to take that route or to completely rule it out is a different story. Either way is fine with me.

      I never really understood this "Toph having a crush on Sokka". The way I look at it, the strong bond between Toph and Sokka is nothing more than a healthy platonic relationship. Tokka is not canon either, so it cannot be used to disprove that Toph may be a transgender for reasons I have outlined above.

      As for The Ember Island Players episode, I strongly disagree with "that whole episode was comic relief and not meant to be taken too seriously." It serves as a recap for the upcoming Sozin's Comet storyline and a form of character analysis, e.g., how others see them, how they see themselves, Aang's unrequited love for Katara, Zuko's regret of his past and his treatment of Iroh, what Toph thinks of Zuko, etc., etc.. The references to past film adaptations were hilarious as well. It is easily one of the best episodes in ATLA. Icon_mrgreen.gif

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    • P1: Don't really see what balls have to do with it. If Bryke comes out & says that they're not ever going to make Korra & Asami lesbians, I'm not going to accuse them of not having balls, because they're not going back on anything. The characters never were what some people wanted them to be.

      P2: Pretty sure there were a few scenes that implied a crush. That said, there was at least 1 that implied a crush on Zuko. Also, I have no idea what this point is in reference to.

      P3: Even then, it wasn't literal. When the Zuko character says to Iroh, "I hate you for all time!" & Zuko says, "I might as well have [said that]," it was not expressing a literal belief that he should have said that.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      P1: Don't really see what balls have to do with it.

      This is related to "5* It's a Y7 Show. The issue is (mostly) irrelevant given the restrictions placed upon Nickelodeon and Bryke by the rating." in Raiden's original post. My comment is in reply to him.

      Also, I have no idea what this point is in reference to.

      This relates to point "2* She Clearly expressed interest in the opposite sex on various occasions, her crush on Sokka for instance. or the fact that she HAD A DAUGHTER!"

      P3: Even then, it wasn't literal. When the Zuko character says to Iroh, "I hate you for all time!" & Zuko says, "I might as well have [said that]," it was not expressing a literal belief that he should have said that.

      I disagree. Zuko actually felt that way, which makes his reunion with Iroh more meaningful and touching.

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    • P1: We'll compromise. You're both wrong.

      P2: Ah. Again, I don't see the crushes as SUPER important, other than establishing that she is probably heterosexual.

      P3: No he didn't. If he literally believed that he should have said that, then he would have said it to Iroh when they met back up. It was an expression of guilt, not a literal "I should do X." Just like Toph enjoys that she was cast as "a muscley version of [her]self taking on 10 bad guys at once," not because she literally wants to grow a penis.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      P1: We'll compromise. You're both wrong.

      I can live with that.

      P2: Ah. Again, I don't see the crushes as SUPER important, other than establishing that she is probably heterosexual.

      ...which is not as meaningful with a transgender woman like Lana Wachowski still married to another woman.

      P3: No he didn't. If he literally believed that he should have said that, then he would have said it to Iroh when they met back up. It was an expression of guilt, not a literal "I should do X."

      Zuko did not say "he should have said it." He said "he might as well have." It was an expression of guilt, of all the wrongs he did with Iroh in the past. I think we both can agree on that point. Our point of disagreement is seems whether or not that episode reinforces that point, which I believe it did.

      Just like Toph enjoys that she was cast as "a muscley version of [her]self taking on 10 bad guys at once," not because she literally wants to grow a penis.

      That's one valid interpretation. The other is that Toph actually wished she was a born as a boy not a girl, not merely content to do boyish things, i.e., being a tomboy. In the end, the audience has to decide what they choose to believe.

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    • it was very clear that toph wasn't wishing she was a boy, she was just enjoying seeing herself as the badass of the group on stage while the others had their negative traits amplified.

      also, bryke stated that toph's portrayal by a male character is more homage to the fact that they almost made her character male than anything else.

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    • "...which is not as meaningful with a transgender woman like Lana Wachowski still married to another woman."

      Again, I say you should take the whole package. If you want to consider Toph's boyishness & lack of overt identification with other girls as "evidence," then I say that where she DOES display stereotypical "woman behavior" should ALSO be considered. In reality, it's all equally absurd. Women can be lesbians, transwomen can be lesbians, women can be very masculine, transwomen can be very feminine. Stereotypes make for very poor evidence.

      "It was an expression of guilt, of all the wrongs he did with Iroh in the past."

      YES, an EXPRESSION, which is not literal. That's my point. I'm not saying that Zuko means something other than the commonly accepted interpretation. I'm saying that they say IN THE EPISODE that Toph was excited at being cast as a big, muscular guy because it made her more impressive. So that's why it's the commonly accepted interpretation. To argue that it's actually SUPPOSED to mean that she LITERALLY wants to be a man would be akin to arguing that we are wrong about Zuko's line, & he actually LITERALLY means that he hates Iroh--as "might as well have" means, essentially, "it's basically what I was saying."

      "That's one valid interpretation. The other is that Toph actually wished she was a born as a boy not a girl, not merely content to do boyish things, i.e., being a tomboy. In the end, the audience has to decide what they choose to believe."

      Valid, perhaps, but not sound. We have statements on Toph's development. Nothing about them even hints that making her transgender has ever even occurred to the writers.

      So I choose to believe what the evidence supports.

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    • Toph and Sokka - The Couple That Should've Been ((Avatar))

      Hey guys look at this video clip. It will prove some stuff around here. Cat Girl Blizzard (wallcontribs) 00:21, January 22, 2014 (UTC)

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    • toph+sokka=incest for lin and tenzin

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    • can we like, um, let this thread die now? everything to say has been said, so...

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    • click on the link.

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    • I think what we need are some girl opinions if we hadn't already. So I'm throwing myself under the bus, here.

      I'm not a girly-girl. I don't wear dresses or skirts. I don't wear high-heels, I don't do my hair or makeup. I wear my brothers' clothes more often than I wear my own. That doesn't mean I don't want to be a girl. I still think like the average girl, I prefer boys (if I date at all), and I still go shopping and do other stereotypical girl things.

      Toph has the choice, like all girls do, to act girly and chooses not to. That's one of the reasons Toph is so relatable.

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    • I agree.

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    • I'm the same way too. I don't think any girl on this wiki is a girly-girl. lol It's avatar wiki.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      can we like, um, let this thread die now? everything to say has been said, so...

      We can agree to disagree for now, but I'd like revisit this thread when The Rift Part 1 comes out. Lixa.gif

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    • LOL

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    • All I know is that most people on this thread know that Toph is just a tomboy, nothing else.

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    • Look at the video I posted above.

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    • Cat Girl Blizzard wrote: I'm the same way too. I don't think any girl on this wiki is a girly-girl. lol It's avatar wiki.

      Exactly. In fact, no girl in the show is a girly girl, except for Ty Lee and those preppy bitches who were making fun of Toph's makeup.

      I can't believe that this is even a big debate or thing -__-

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    • Hasdi wrote:

      We can agree to disagree for now, but I'd like revisit this thread when The Rift Part 1 comes out. Lixa.gif

      Alright. That's fair.

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    • IKR, even though I'm involved in it my self. lol

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    • You are all aware Gene Yang is a Catholic right?

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    • Not until now.

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    • i am now. what's that have to do with the series though? catholics tend to not believe in reincarnation, yet in the promise, roku explicitly told aang "aang, you are me." if bryke was going to make toph transgender, then yang wouldn't really have a say in it.

      but we know she won't become trans b/c of the math i did before. hard to argue with numbers.

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    • If it's on avatar it makes sense, but I don't believe in reincarnation myself. Just a side note, I'm also Christian.

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    • I have no opinion on the issue, but . . .  Given his religious beliefs, and the religious beliefs most Catholics have towards transgender people I highly doubt he will make a controversial change to Tophs character. Gene Yang is still writing this comic.

      Hasdi. . .If a story does make toph Transgender down the line so be it. But I doubt it will be one written by Gene Yang.

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    • RaidenRadio wrote:
      I have no opinion on the issue, but . . .  Given his religious beliefs, and the religious beliefs most Catholics have towards transgender people I highly doubt he will make a controversial change to Tophs character. Gene Yang is still writing this comic.

      Hasdi. . .If a story does make toph Transgender down the line so be it. But I doubt it will be one written by Gene Yang.

      Very good point, if Gene Yang is still writing it as long as he is still a faithful catholic, Toph will 95% chance not be transgender. :)

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    • just would like to point out that regardless of his own beliefs, he has to follow the canon that bryke gives him.

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    • <considering>

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    • By the way I don't know how this turned into such a huge discussion. It's not even funny.

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    • considering what?

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    • I'm taking it in deeply.

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    • what's "it" though?

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    • There is often a disconnect between Catholic doctrine & what most Catholics actually believe. To make the point, let's use the similar issue of homophobia. Here is a quick trio of stories about Catholic schools in Ontario supporting gay rights:

      http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ontario-catholic-school-survey-says-being-against-homosexuality-is-extremel

      http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/homosexuality-test-in-ontario-catholic-school-religion-class

      http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ontario-catholic-school-board-defends-equity-talk-by-same-sex-marriage-advo

      This isn't from some Catholic pro-gay group, either. If you scroll down to the comments, the users are actually pretty virulently homophobic. Much like why I'm defending Catholics here despite not supporting Catholicism in the slightest, they're not reporting on this to convince you, they're reporting on it because it's true.

      And here is a story about a study finding that most Catholics are not anti-gay:

      http://www.dallasvoice.com/new-studies-catholics-arent-homophobia-and-pedophile-priests-arent-gay-108719.html

      Why am I telling you this? Because religious affiliation is not the best indicator of attitudes towards gays, & probably not transsexuals, either.

      Also, like I4 said, there is already the issue that Gene Yang is involved in writing a story that is very much against Catholic doctrines by normalizing reincarnation:

      "The Catechism clearly states 'When the single course of our earthly life is completed, we shall not return to other earthly lives…There is no 'reincarnation' after death” (CCC #1013)."

      In fact, according to Gallup, as much as a quarter of US Catholics believe in reincarnation, despite it being obviously against Catholic dogma.

      http://www.catholicplanet.com/articles/article139.htm

      What it ultimately comes down to is not, "What is Gene Yang's religion?" but "What is Gene Yang's background?" He may well be against transsexuality, but if he is, that has more to do with transphobia being prevalent in society, rather than the fact that he happens to be Catholic.

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    • What it ultimately comes down to is not, "What is Gene Yang's religion?" but "What is Gene Yang's background?" He may well be against transsexuality, but if he is, that has more to do with transphobia being prevalent in society, rather than the fact that he happens to be Catholic.

      Gene Yang has no issue with writing about reincarnation or spirits because he grew up in a household where stories featuring that sort of thing were told all the time. It's what he personally enjoys and likes to read and write.

      Not to mention there are many Catholics/Christians who also enjoy Star Wars, Harry Potter, Transformers, The Earthsea Novels, Marvel/DC comics, Miyazaki Films, and Enders Game. All of which feature things that directly conflict with Christian beliefs. Does that stop the majority of Christian people from going to the movies or watching TV?  No! of course not! That'd be ridiculous! -

      What do you guys think? Is there anything you personally enjoy that has 'something' in it that you disagree with because of personal beliefs?

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    • Yes, like I said, his background influences his attitudes even more than his official religion. Also, there is a very vocal group of Christians who protested Harry Potter out of the belief that it was "demonic."

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    • glad we've changed the route of the discussion somewhat, the old stuff was getting stale. it was kinda gross. :p

      personally, i don't typically discuss this (i usually try to stay away from religious and political discussions, you piss less people off that way haha.) But i'm christian. and like raiden said, i enjoy, harry potter and avatar, and i thought ender's game was a phenomenal series...though i didn't read the last book, so nobody spoil it! (i kinda saw the movie, no comment there though). as for reincarnation, like i said, i'm christian, so i don't religiously believe in it (double meaning intended). that said, i've seen some pretty convincing documentaries, and i'm not totally opposed to the idea. i also think that even if you believe one thing, you shouldn't be totally ignorant or intolerant of other things. you know in your heart that you are right, so keep it there, and let others have their fun. and speaking of fun, i don't think people should shun a series work of fantasy because it contains elements that they don't believe in. it's fantasy people! besides you're missing out on some pretty cool stuff if you do that...

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      i thought ender's game was a phenomenal series...though i didn't read the last book, so nobody spoil it! (i kinda saw the movie, no comment there though).

      Funny that you mention Ender's Game. Perhaps you know of the author (Orson Scott Card) and his views on opposing homosexuality and same-sex marriage. Because of that, an LGBT group proposed a boycott of the film adaptation, which I do not support. The movie isn't anti-gay and the deal was structured so that Card will make no money from the film no matter how much box office it generates.[1] I am saddened that it tanked in the box-office. It deserve better. To boycott the movie because I disagree with Card's views makes as much sense as avoiding Gene Yang's comics just because I disagree with his views on M.Night's movie. In short, the movie should be judged by its content not the personal views of the author, and likewise with other authored works. IMHO.

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    • What does that have to do with anything?

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    • Intelligence4 said "people should [not] shun a series work of fantasy because it contains elements that they don't believe in". As corollary, we should not boycott an authored work because of the personal views of the author, instead of the content of that work. Ergo, if The Rift has Toph wanting to grow a penis, it will be independent of Gene Yang's own views on transgender issues. Granted, the route of the discussion has changed, but it is somewhat related to the topic of this thread.

      Perhaps we rather talk about how shipping Toph and Sokka does not necessarily imply incest for Lin and Tenzin. Sokka could be established as Katara's brother from another mother, without conflicting too much with the existing continuity. Intelligence4 did brought it up. Lixa.gif

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    • bring*

      i thought we were gonna let this thread die?

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    • Not 'we'. Just 'you', which is fine but I rather revisit this thread than start a new one when The Rift comes out. For continuity of arguments' sake, of course.

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    • "Not 'we'. Just 'you',"

      Also, I HAVE been sort of ignoring some of the more bizarre conversation threads that have been springing up in here recently.

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    • yeah, i feel like the quality of the discussion boards had dropped significantly since the article comments were disabled. imo, we should bring them back.

      @hasdi

      letting it die now doesn't mean not revisiting it when the rift comes out. although that will be unnecessary: this proves toph wasn't transgender. it says "unknown father".

      http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/avatar-the-legend-of-korra/images/30544925/title/family-tree-photo

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    • IKR?

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    • Ehrm, did Intelligence4 somehow get the idea that the trans hypothesis would suggest that Toph is biologically male and pretends to be a girl? Because that's certainly not what it'd suggest. O_o

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    • SuperAvatar wrote:
      Ehrm, did Intelligence4 somehow get the idea that the trans hypothesis would suggest that Toph is biologically male and pretends to be a girl? Because that's certainly not what it'd suggest. O_o

      Of course, no doubt.

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    • Actually, that would make for a far more interesting hypothesis than Toph acting boyish because she's secretly a trans boy. A totally weird and ridiculous hypothesis, but still, far more interesting. (The clearest evidence that she's not a boy in disguise is that she didn't grow a super-sized chin and a super-wide chest in LOK, lol.)

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    • I didn't *necessarily* mean the board in general, I meant more specifically within this thread, with things like:

      "As corollary, we should not boycott an authored work because of the personal views of the author, instead of the content of that work."

      Like, really, what does this have to do with anything? And people are going to boycott any author who acts like a tool. Maybe they shouldn't, but maybe the author shouldn't act like a tool in the first place. Wish in 1 hand, defecate in the other.

      "as for reincarnation, like i said, i'm christian, so i don't religiously believe in it (double meaning intended). that said, i've seen some pretty convincing documentaries, and i'm not totally opposed to the idea."

      So much potential for an anti-woo rant....

      "Ergo, if The Rift has Toph wanting to grow a penis"

      Admittedly, this one might be my fault for using a similar hyperbole earlier.

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    • "And I thought you are more interested in having a serious discussion than another trolling accusation.  The null hypothesis is that Toph is a tomboy, so it will remain as fact on this wiki at this time. However, I maintain that Toph has been nicely set up to be established as a transgender in future storylines. Whether Nick has the balls to take that route or to completely rule it out is a different story. Either way is fine with me."

      Balls have nothing to do with it if Nick and Bryke don't want Toph to be a tranny.

      I gotta say, I watched this show since I was a kid and at no point did I ever thought 'Y'know, maybe Toph is actually a guy in a girl's body?'

      Just because she acts more like a boy doesn't mean she wants to be a boy. And i doubt that Bryke will suddenly turn her into a boy because that would be counter productive, don't you think? They changed the original Toph to a girl only to have her want to be a boy? Yeah... no.

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    • @neo "so much potential for an anti-woo rant..."

      ??

      not trying to provoke a rant or anything here, but... Maybe i'm just unfamiliar with the word woo.

      EDIT: thanks, google. those "documentaries"...while i did use the term convincing, i must use a disclaimer that i take them with a significant grain of salt. you can't really conduct science on reincarnation and all that. i think what i meant is that i became more open to the idea after seeing them.

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    • For anyone who doesn't know, "woo" is a term used in skeptic circles to describe superstition or pseudoscience, particularly when it is marketed as empirically demonstrated.

      See: Aunt Wu.

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    • I can't believe this thread is still very active. 

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    • Transgender? The frick? She's a tomboy, yes, but that doesn't her Trans.

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    • Hasdi wrote:
      Intelligence4 wrote:
      i thought ender's game was a phenomenal series...though i didn't read the last book, so nobody spoil it! (i kinda saw the movie, no comment there though).
      Funny that you mention Ender's Game. Perhaps you know of the author (Orson Scott Card) and his views on opposing homosexuality and same-sex marriage. Because of that, an LGBT group proposed a boycott of the film adaptation, which I do not support. The movie isn't anti-gay and the deal was structured so that Card will make no money from the film no matter how much box office it generates.[1] I am saddened that it tanked in the box-office. It deserve better. To boycott the movie because I disagree with Card's views makes as much sense as avoiding Gene Yang's comics just because I disagree with his views on M.Night's movie. In short, the movie should be judged by its content not the personal views of the author, and likewise with other authored works. IMHO.

      The book is always better than the movie anyway

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    • IKR?

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    • I remember when everyone thought Bolin was gay and would have a male love interest later in the series. Now this? I TOTALLY have nothing against gay, trans etc people but nickelodeon has a lot to do with the movies and i don't think they would do that because its a kids channel. If another channel had rights to the show then it would be fine.

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    • It was never the case that anyone thought that. This is just the Availability Heuristic in action. Just because someone has an off-the-wall belief, it doesn't mean that it's held by the fandom at large.

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    • @Celine Agreed!

      @All Why is this debate still even going on? Toph has very much so shown her girly side when spending the day with Katara and around Sokka. There is no serious moment in the show when she grimly and solemnly admits that she wishes that she was a boy or not a girl and would like to be referred to as one. I don't even see how she acts more liked. Boy than like a girl she still trash talks and give sass the way that a girl does. When she first meets Aang, she doesn't say "we all know who the real man is down here. No one can stand up to me.". No, she said, "you'd on'te qnt to see two little girls fighting down here, do you? That one line from "The Ember Island Players" should not be taken as serious evidence, because Toph also thought that clueless Solka whose jokes are only about meat, overweight, promiscuous, and melodramatic Katara, and Aang as a girl were accurate portrayals. She still acted and handled her situations like a girl would. She acts tough, yes, but she never tries to come off as a boy or even different from a girl. At no point does she even say "I'm not your typical girl" or anything of the sort. She's just a tomboy who's not afraid to get her hands dirty. I really can't even believe that this is such a serious debate and an actual proposition from the fandom -__-

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    • Look...you guys are making sound arguments...except for these parts:

      @All Why is this debate still even going on?

      ...Because people keep chiming in to say how wrong this is & that it shouldn't even be a thing. You're right, of course, but you're beating a dead horse.

      I really can't even believe that this is such a serious debate and an actual proposition from the fandom

      1 user. A single user in this entire thread supports this theory.

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    • Oh, okay. Great point, Neo. Sorry. I agree, though haha.

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    • Yeah, I'm not trying to bite anyone's head off, or anything. Just Saiyan.




      KAKAROOOOOOOOOOOOOT!

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    • LMFAOOOOOOO XD Good one XP

      Don't make me get Android 18 on you again XD

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    • I bet if people stopped responding this forum would go blank, like seriously.

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    • Okay, then let's do that lmao.

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    • Oh, well. Since this thread is being kept alive at my expense, let me throw in another argument I have made in the past. Lin's last name is Beifong. Shouldn't it be the last name of her father? While uncommon, you can counter this by saying that Toph's husband may adopted the more prestigious Beifong name just like in Tai Chi 0. The other possibility is that Toph married someone from the Beifong family, which I suppose is incestuous and kinda gross. Icon_sick.gif

      Let's not forget the hint dropped by the director of The Legend of Korra. Icon_lolno.gif

      "Lin’s dad is Azula. It’s really complicated."
      Colin Heck on May 14 2012
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    • Considering Toph was the State Chief of Police its understandable that her husband let their child use Toph's last name Beifong rather than his own. During Tales of Ba Sing it shows Toph does have female characteristics such as fashion but simply avoid them as they are "look based" and she is blind herself

      "Lin's dad is Azula"

      Uhhh... lets say a crazed bloodbender related to Yakone or was Yakone found her imprisioned after going insane and used her as a free bloodbending victim.

      He bloodbent her body inards and fluids and mixed her up into a guy.

      By Toph's personality its unlikely any ordinary guy would marry her but possibly...

      As Chief of Police she had control over who could be released from prison and let Azula as a guy go... in exchange for...

      My Jimmies got rustled while typing this, I will slowly back away from this thread

      It does explain Lin's furiousity and insanity however

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    • The funny thing is that, right after, he said that that was their way of telling the public that they were getting of sick of getting asked who Toph's husband was. As far as Toph's last name and Lin inheriting it goes, yes, that is a nice point, but there's also just the possibility that Lin used her mother's last name to represent the strength of her mother and the women in their family, keeping the line of strong females in the Beifong family strong. Perhaps whomever Toph married has no last name? You do realize that there are very,v y few characters with last name and Toph and Asami are the only main characters with them, right? Not even the Avatar or royal families have last names. You can keep taking bits and parts of humorously executed arguments and add all the emoticons in the world, but they're not going to strengthen the premise of Toph supposedly being transgendered at all. When does ever express disgust or disdain at herself being female? Even during the humorous episode of the play, she could just have been saying that her portrayal fits her, because she's tough and badass and takes down multiple guys at a time, like her actor did.

      As for the quote from Colin Heck, even if that is meant to be taken seriously, he said that Azula was the dad, not Toph. That, alone, kind of shows that Toph is clearly female on the inside, too, if she's th mother and Azula is the father. Also, when Korra first meets Lin, then she tells her that her mother was good friends with Avatar Aang. Thus, even if Azula is the dad, that makes Azula transgendered and only fourth solidifies Toph's female gender.

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    • It amuses me that people never seem to question why we assume that the Avatar World's naming system is patrilineal. That's an arbitrary convention that wasn't even followed by every culture in our world. Almost no one has their last names revealed in Avatar, so we don't really have enough information to determine how it works.

      Also, I almost wish I had a tumblr so that I could point out to that guy that we don't always know which questions will be answered in the show or not. Also that some people don't care about spoilers, & will more-or-less enjoy it all the same.

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    • Agreed. Plus, Toph and Asami are th only main characters with scutes family names. Not even the royal families have those...

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    • It brings up something I like to call "No Last Names or Unknown Last Names?" Confused the crap out of me in FFX, where only the Ronso & Guado had last names, & that was just the name of their species, ie Kimahri Ronso or Jyscal Guado. So does that mean that all of the human characters have names like "Auron Human"? And what if there's more than 1 human Auron? Though I guess we all know that there could only ever be 1 Auron....

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    • Lol yeah. But that's why I don't look into the last name thing too deeply.

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    • TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      As for the quote from Colin Heck, even if that is meant to be taken seriously, he said that Azula was the dad, not Toph.

      Ah... you forget, Azula was originally a male character like Toph. So, Colin's quote may be his cryptic way of saying "Lin's dad is Toph. It's really complicated." Although, I do think she conceived Lin with a little "help" from Sokka or Zuko. Yeah, I do admit it feels wrong for your broham to be your sperm donor but when you are desperate to father a child, you gotta work with what you have. Icon_wtf.gif

      Look at the bright side. Lin turned out to be a healthy and feisty heterosexual tomboy, yet still girlish enough to wear a lipstick... unlike her dad. Details, details...

      Lin Beifong
      Chief Toph Beifong
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    • wut.

      did he just try to say that "azula is lin's dad" really means that "toph is her dad"??

      i mean, really.

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    • and can we at least wait until the rift is out to discuss this further?

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    • Jesus, I don't even know where to begin with that....

      1. Linking us to Azula's page does not show us what the flameo you're talking about.

      2. Is this a joke? 'Cause it's not very funny.

      3. That is probably not lipstick, because lipstick usually is not pale pink. Compare with a character who is obviously wearing make-up. Most female characters in Avatar have pink lips. But not all of them. Mai & Ty Lee also do not. Even if you wanted to argue that Mai wouldn't wear "cheery" make-up, that excuse doesn't fly for Ty Lee.

      ADDENDUM: Apparently the Boiling Rock warden wears a lovely shade of highbeam tan. And it was much harder than it needed to be to find a name for tan-colored lipstick.

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    • What the hell? How in the world is linking Azula's page and saying a quote that applied ONLY TO HER suddenly used for Toph, too? You know, everyone, because Aang is a really lighthearted, easy going boy who's more in touch with his feminine side than most guys are and is pacifistic and not violent... he must be transgendered, as well.

      In fact, every character whose gender got drafted must be transgendered. Azula was also originally planned to have an arranged marriage in Season 3... yup, I bet you that secretly, she wants to still be married.

      Oh, God forbid that Lin wears lipstick and Toph doesn't. Funny how, every time that Toph's been brought up, it was as Lin's mother. Yup, calling Azula Lin's dad translating to calling Toph Lin's dad makes perfect sense. Almost as much sense as saying that me calling my dad my dad means that, really, my mom is my dad -__- Man, Hasdi, how do you come up with such brilliant arguments? Oh, and since Azula being Lin's dad means that Toph is Lin's dad, I guess that that also makes Toph Zuko's sister. Wowwww, thank you so much for your argument, Hasdi. Bravo.

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    • If anything, the quote means that Azula and Toph got together as a lesbian couple. That'd be a nice revelation. :)

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    • SuperAvatar wrote:
      If anything, the quote means that Azula and Toph got together as a lesbian couple. That'd be a nice revelation. :)

      No that's clearly not possible, Azula had a flaring temper, and DID NOT GET ALONG WITH ANYBODY.

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    • Cat Girl Blizzard wrote:

      SuperAvatar wrote:
      If anything, the quote means that Azula and Toph got together as a lesbian couple. That'd be a nice revelation. :)

      No that's clearly not possible, Azula had a flaring temper, and DID NOT GET ALONG WITH ANYBODY.

      She could've changed. A lot of people did. Zuko used to have a flaming temper, but he obviously changed enough to get a wife who could give him his daughter.

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    • TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Funny how, every time that Toph's been brought up, it was as Lin's mother. Yup, calling Azula Lin's dad translating to calling Toph Lin's dad makes perfect sense. Almost as much sense as saying that me calling my dad my dad means that, really, my mom is my dad -__-

      I refer you to my earlier comment where I cited a transgender man giving birth in Germany, which also cited another American case of a man giving birth. Similarly, while Toph may be Lin's biological mother, Toph considers himself to be her father. The general public, however, may be unaware of Toph's transgender status and still refer to Toph as a woman. Of course, this begs the question of who is Lin's biological father?

      TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Man, Hasdi, how do you come up with such brilliant arguments?

      It is a matter for careful consideration of the evidence at hand. While not conclusive, it does cast some doubt that Toph is just another tomboy. Eusa_think.gif

      SuperAvatar wrote:
      If anything, the quote means that Azula and Toph got together as a lesbian couple. That'd be a nice revelation. :)

      I can't say we can rule it out, but I think it is more probable that Toph has a different domestic partner than a crazy b---- like Azula. Either scenario is still a wonderful compromise to the fanboys oogling for Korrasami to be made canon, wouldn't you say? http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd378/ketekbau/Emoticon/kedip.gif

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    • It is not careful consideration of the evidence, it is interpreting everything you see in the most bass-ackwards way possible to come to a contrived, preconceived conclusion.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      It is not careful consideration of the evidence, it is interpreting everything you see in the most bass-ackwards way possible to come to a contrived, preconceived conclusion.

      You just made my day, Neo. XD

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      It is not careful consideration of the evidence, it is interpreting everything you see in the most bass-ackwards way possible to come to a contrived, preconceived conclusion.

      That's the beauty of argument, if you argue correctly (EG twist the facts or use the proper words and fallacies), technically speaking you're never wrong.

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    • I lost track how many times a neophyte rebut my argument with another quote from a movie. Eusa_snooty.gif

      "That's the beauty of argument, if you argue correctly, you're never wrong"
      — Nick Naylor in Thank You for Smoking (2005)
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    • That was a movie quote? I didn't know, I haven't seen that movie in years.

      Again you are using the fallacy of Argumentum ad hominem

      Evading the topic of your own flaws as a commentator by directly insulting (or heavily implying something negative) about the person you are arguing with. without taking time to analyze why your side of the argument may be wrong.

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    • Hasdi wrote:
      RaidenRadio wrote:
      Exactly! Thats all I'm Saying!
      And I thought you are more interested in having a serious discussion than another trolling accusation. Eusa_snooty.gif The null hypothesis is that Toph is a tomboy, so it will remain as fact on this wiki at this time. However, I maintain that Toph has been nicely set up to be established as a transgender in future storylines. Whether Nick has the balls to take that route or to completely rule it out is a different story. Either way is fine with me.. Icon_mrgreen.gif

      The simple fact of the matter is that they won't; you have to remember that despite everything, this is still a show targeted for youth, and throwing in a trans character would have the moral guardians all over the show and Nick, with the commentators, and the pundits, and the parent groups. Thet're not going to risk it.

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    • QueenCeline wrote:  Thet're not going to risk it.

      True. And we can all agree that Toph is an excellent character, regardless on whether or not we like her. Can't we just stick with the stuff given to us (That Toph is a girl) and accept her?

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    • steph said: "can't we just... accept her?"

      normally, we're told to accept people even though they might be "different" from the "norm" in one way or another. now, we also have to be told to accept a person who does fit that norm. sad, really.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      steph said: "can't we just... accept her?"

      normally, we're told to accept people even though they might be "different" from the "norm" in one way or another. now, we also have to be told to accept a person who does fit that norm. sad, really.

      It is sad.

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    • So... can we accept a someone who holds a "different" view than the "norm"? Lixa.gif

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    • If Toph really was Transgender, in any way shape or form. I wouldn't have an issue with it. Heck i think it would add a depth of realism to the universe that most fantasy sorely lacks.

      But Toph the character, as established IN CANON is not LGBT. If there really was a transgender character in Avatar or LOK, i'd be all for it. But it is NOT Toph.

      Also, the emoticons are getting really old hasdi, they just make you come off to the majority of users on this wiki as pretentious. Try something fresh.

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    • RaidenRadio wrote: If Toph really was Transgender, in any way shape or form. I wouldn't have an issue with it. Heck i think it would add a depth of realism to the universe that most fantasy sorely lacks.

      But Toph the character, as established IN CANON is not LGBT. If there really was a transgender character in Avatar or LOK, i'd be all for it. But it is NOT Toph.

      Also, the emoticons are getting really old hasdi, they just make you come off to the majority of users on this wiki as pretentious. Try something fresh.

      '

      I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph. Those emoticons are annoying and immature.

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    • Hasdi wrote:

      TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Funny how, every time that Toph's been brought up, it was as Lin's mother. Yup, calling Azula Lin's dad translating to calling Toph Lin's dad makes perfect sense. Almost as much sense as saying that me calling my dad my dad means that, really, my mom is my dad -__-

      I refer you to my earlier comment where I cited a transgender man giving birth in Germany, which also cited another American case of a man giving birth. Similarly, while Toph may be Lin's biological mother, Toph considers himself to be her father. The general public, however, may be unaware of Toph's transgender status and still refer to Toph as a woman. Of course, this begs the question of who is Lin's biological father?

      Oh, my goodness. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall, beating a dead horse. Once again, how do you say with such confidence that Toph is transgendered when she's always confidently identified as a girl? You know what's funny? You keep linking all of these cases of what men were doing in real life as if they apply to Toph, but they don't. Other than pure comic relief moments that didn't even go into specific detail, you have shown no reason for anyone to think that Toph is transgendered. And I was referring to how you actually tried to say that Azula being jocularly called Lin's dad equates to Toph being the same thing? Wtf! If Azula's the dad, then you know what that makes Lin's other parent, right? *Nods head slowly* That's right, her mother. The funny thing is that you said "oh, by Auzla, he meant Toph", which is ridiculous as saying that, because Azula is Zuko's sister, Toph is acutally Zuko's sister... "it's complicated". Oh, also, since Pakku, Gyatso, and the original draft for Toph are all in the opening sequence for A:TLAB and teachers for Aang and since Azula is also in that opening sequence, I guess that that makes Azula one of Aang's teachers, too, right? -_- I swear lol. Toph has shown no sign of masculinity and linking random cases about people who have nothing to do with Toph and trying to use a quote that was executed as comic relief and about Azula, when talking about Toph, is beyond ridiculous.

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    • Hasdi wrote:

      TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Man, Hasdi, how do you come up with such brilliant arguments?

      It is a matter for careful consideration of the evidence at hand. While not conclusive, it does cast some doubt that Toph is just another tomboy. Eusa_think.gif

      Oh, yes, such careful consideration. Oh my goodness, Toph once jokingly said that she thinks that a muscular boy playing her fits well... and she didn't even specify whether it was the gender or badass power of the man... and the funny thing is that everyone, including Toph, kept saying that she liked the power of the actor, because it matched her well.

      Oh, wait, I forgot your other carefully picked out piece of evidence: Lin wearing lipstick. Oh, yes, Azula, Lin's dad, has never, ever worn makeup. Not once in her life. Nope, you wouldn't even be able to know that she was a girl unless someone told you. Her nails are absolutely never filed, nor is her hair stylized in a girly fashion. Yup and, since Lin wears some lipstick, that makes her a thousand times girlier than Toph ever was. Nope, Lin absolutely does not inherit her mother's tough as nails personality. Wow, Hasdi, you're really on a roll here. Please stop with these radiantly intelligent arguments. They're killing me, man.

      Oh, yes, and your smart alec emoticons. Man, they make it so easy to take your seriously with the already extremely logical and anything but ridiculously circular arguments that you provide. I mean, how could I not know that Azula being called Lin's dad means the same for Toph? Thanks. Now, I know to call my mom dad, as well. Oh, yeah and you know how you sit on the chair and place your plate, food, and silverware on the table? What I really mean by that is that, since your table is another element of the dinner setting, it's actually the table on which you sit to eat dinner, not the chair.

      Wow, Hasdi. You sure showed me... and all of us. How do you do it?

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    • @Tarrlok

      advice man,  you accidentally responded IN the quotation. Happens all the time, but to avoid confusion you should probably edit your reply.

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    • RaidenRadio wrote: @Tarrlok

      advice man,  you accidentally responded IN the quotation. Happens all the time, but to avoid confusion you should probably edit your reply.

      Lol I fixed it, but thanks. I noticed that when I posted it :P

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    • Oh, wait, I forgot another brilliant piece of evidence for arguing even more transgendered characters in the show: Aang dressed up in Avatar Kyoshi's costume without any real sign of discomfort and he's more sensitive and girly than Sokka, Zuko, and all the others guys around whom he hangs... thus, Aang is undoubtedly transgendered. Hands down. No doubt about it.

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    • Hasdi wrote: So... can we accept a someone who holds a "different" view than the "norm"? Lixa.gif

      "Different" in this case is "demonstrably wrong, but maintained by selective interpretation of the evidence, even after the numerous problems have been made apparent" while "accept" seems to mean "humor & say that it's just as valid as any other belief," so I'm going with, "No" as defined as "No."

      Also, I think that the most crucial issue on the board right now is that we understand that Lin Beifong does not wear lipstick.

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    • Toph can't put on lipstick. She's blind!

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    • Steph32597s wrote: Toph can't put on lipstick. She's blind!

      Yeah, seriously lol wtf...

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    • and since the avatar is reincarnated over and over again as both genders, then the avatar is always transgendered. reincarnation: like a natural sex change operation!


      okay.... i can't help myself. this joke is just so fitting here...


      what do you call the surgical procedure when a woman becomes a man?

      AN ADDADICKTOME!


      /sokka too-large grin/ geddit? it sounds like an appendectomy, but it's really an add-a-dick-to-me...

      sokka voice: oh, man. yup, i've been waiting to use that one..../wipes tear/ /smile fades slowly/

      (not really)


      on the emotiocons: /confession bear/ i actually like the emoticons....

      hasdi said something along the lines of: can't we accept someone with different views?

      to which i say, yes. but not when those "views" have been proven wrong.

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    • also, as trollish as hasdi is being, you gotta give him credit for still being able to carry on an "argument" against all of us. normal people most other people would have quit by now.

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    • Hasdi wrote: I lost track how many times a neophyte rebut my argument with another quote from a movie. Eusa_snooty.gif

      "That's the beauty of argument, if you argue correctly, you're never wrong"
      — Nick Naylor in Thank You for Smoking (2005)

      The funny thing is that you linked that video when it's clear that the only one smoking something here is you, hence your constant ridiculously circular arguments and desperately trying to fit this "evidence" to your Toph transgender theory...

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:


      /sokka too-large grin/ geddit? it sounds like an appendectomy, but it's really an add-a-dick-to-me...

      sokka voice: oh, man. yup, i've been waiting to use that one..../wipes tear/ /smile fades slowly/

      HAHAHA! I LOVE IT! XD CHEESY JOKES FOREVER! XD

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    • Pretty sure that joke is not appropriate for an all ages wiki. .  .

      Then again this is a thread talking about sexual orientation in a Y7 cartoon. . .

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    • and you have to be 13 to join.

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    • RaidenRadio wrote:
      Pretty sure that joke is not appropriate for an all ages wiki. .  .

      You have to be thirteen to sign up.

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    • TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Once again, how do you say with such confidence that Toph is transgendered when she's always confidently identified as a girl?

      Loaded question alert. What I actually said with such confidence is that Toph could be a transgender because she confidently identified herself as a "really buff guy". Aang, on the other hand, did not appreciate being depicted as a girl in The Ember Island Players episode.

      TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      You keep linking all of these cases of what men were doing in real life as if they apply to Toph, but they don't.

      I kept linking these real-life cases because my proposition is not as absurd as you think. Although, real-life can be stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense. Also, I linked Azula page in my earlier comment because I recall a trivia that Azula was originally conceived as a male character. We need to fix that.

      TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Oh, yes, and your smart alec emoticons. Man, they make it so easy to take your seriously with the already extremely logical and anything but ridiculously circular arguments that you provide.



      The funny thing is that you linked that video when it's clear that the only one smoking something here is you, hence your constant ridiculously circular arguments and desperately trying to fit this "evidence" to your Toph transgender theory...

      I object to your unfair characterizations of these "smart alec emoticons". Even Wikipedia editors uses their emotion template, which is not as good as my emotion template (even if I say so myself) that I diligently put together and proposed to Avatar Wiki's war room. >>>THIS<<< is the part where I would have embedded the :eusa_snooty: emoticon to express my disapproval. I suppose I could do what others did, e.g., cut-and-paste tumblr/image links that you have to click just figure out what I am emoting, but that's kinda ghey.

      http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/480x360q90/20/fz2v.jpg
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    • That's a little insensitive, don't you think?

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    • Steph32597s wrote:
      Hasdi wrote:  but that's kinda ghey.
      That's a little insensitive, don't you think?

      Nope. Click on the link: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ghey

      The avoid confusion, the 'g' in 'ghey' is not silent.

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    • Hasdi wrote:
      Nope. Click on the link: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ghey

      The avoid confusion, the 'g' in 'ghey' is not silent.

      I know what it means. I'm part of today's urban youth. It's still rude to say it about people who post links to tumblr.

      And TUW doesn't think emoticons are bad. He thinks the ones you are using make you look like a jerk who is unwilling to admit that they are wrong when given logical evidence against their idea.

      Just saying ^^'

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    • Steph32597s wrote:
      I know what it means. I'm part of today's urban youth. It's still rude to say it about people who post links to tumblr.

      It's more of a retort for people who thinks that my emoticons are ghey. It is not really tumblr per se, it is just that I personally find bare links and use of non-hotlinkable images as aesthetically unpleasing. Though, you can blame Wikia for not having better editing tools to be more accessible to the public.

      Steph32597s wrote:
      He thinks the ones you are using make you look like a jerk who is unwilling to admit that they are wrong when given logical evidence against their idea.

      I am fine if my hypothesis turned to be out wrong. He shouldn't misconstrue my argument that his assertion of "Toph is a tomboy" is not correct. Icon_problem.gif

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    • Hasdi wrote:  He shouldn't misconstrue my argument that his assertion of "Toph is a tomboy" is not correct.

      Well, then you're talking to te wrong person. He's the one who needs to hear/read that, not me.

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    • @Hasdi Toph is a tomboy, though. She's never actually shown any sort of resentment toward the fact that she is female. If anything, she likes being a girl just to kick big guys' asses. Again, Toph didn't constantly show excitement on being a really buff guys. She showed excitement for being the only one who wasn't lame and was cool and kicking everyone's asses. Zuko even said that the reason why she was okay with her role was because she was a trash talking guy who was taking down multiple opponents at once. Toph never actually said, in any serious setting, that she wanted to be a boy. If they had made her a really buff guy who was getting as humiliated as the rest of the Gaang members, then she would've been just as outraged. Also, Toph also showed complete approval at the fact that, instead of using seismic sense to see, her actor was releasing a sonic wave from his mouth. Obviously, that's not a spot on description of Toph, either. Toph also thought that casting Katara as overweight and obsessed with hope filled speeches and flirtatious behavior with any boy but Aang was accurate. She also thought that Aang being a girl was accurate. At first, even Katara tried to argue that Toph's portrayal was accurate. The whole point of that episode was comic relief for everyone to relax and kick back before the big battle.

      If you really want to be technical, then Toph, who was originally complimenting every single portrayal, left the theater in agreement with the rest of the Gaang that the play was awful, so, there is no overt evidence that Toph likes being a boy, except for some comic relief in an episode where Toph thinks that plenty of inaccurate portrayals are accurate.

      Why do we need to fix that? Azula's original character was supposed to be male. However, that still makes what she became completely different from what she now is. Even then, the quote that you earlier posted was referring to Azula, not to Toph. No one except for you has referred to Toph as Lin's dad. Azula was referred as so, but even that quote was jocularly stated.

      See, you can think all highly of those emoticons all that you want, but they just make you look stuck up, trollish, and hard to take seriously. You keep on trying to rub your points in everyone's face as if you're the correct one and your emoticons really do come off as someone who's full of himself and trolling everyone to try and seem better. Also, what's wrong with using your words? Why do you feel the need to post all these memes, emoticons, and other types of images that take away the seriousness of the debate? Why can't you just use your words and actually debate, rather than shutting down what everyone else is saying and posting some sort of pretentious image, be it a meme, emoticon or picture? That's my question. And wow, Hasdi, my goodness, you used "ghey", instead of "gay". That is very, very noble of you. Bravo, Hasdi.

      You know, Hasdi, when you say "ghey" instead of "gay", then it absolutely does not sound like the same word at all. No, siree. In fact, I have no idea, whatsoever, which word you are trying to substitute for. It's just like when people put stars in curse words (i.e. "sh*t" for "shit"). Suddenly, the intent of word is absolutely, completely taken away, man. Yup. Changing around some of the spelling and keeping the same pronunciation and using it exactly where an offensive term used to be absolutely does not make it obvious what you are really trying to say in more subtle terms. Not at all. You really showed me again, Hasdi. Keep it coming, dude. Keep it coming.

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    • Also, better emoticons by whose standards? Most of the users on here find your emoticons to be trollish and taking away from the seriousness of discussions. Your emoticons just come off as ostentatious and as if you are full of yourself.

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    • Oh, one more point: "The Ember Island Players" was created as an episode for the creators to also sit back and mock their own work. Toph's original design, as we've repeated over and over, was male. The male actor being in the play was a shoutout to that. When Toph said "I wouldn't have cast it any other way", that might very well just have been the creators' subtle way joking along the lines of I wonder what would've kept Toph's character a buff 16 year old boy, as originally planned.

      However, Toph never seriously said anything along the lines of "guys have so much more fun. Sometimes, I wonder what it's like to be a boy" or "being a girl sucks. You have to worry about [this, that, yada, yada, yada]".

      Also, Aang took seriously and to heart the Zutara moments up on the stage that were clearly also for comic relief, as well as Katara saying that he was like her little brother.

      That whole episode was comic relief. That one episode and a quote about Azula that was also stated comically cannot be defined as overt evidence.

      Plus, Toph has shown affection for Sokka multiple times, like when she glomped and kissed whom she thought was Sokka and shamefully retracted when she was wrong... and when she turned around and tried to say that she didn't miss Sokka, but was blushing and smiling as she said it.

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    • TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Oh, one more point: "The Ember Island Players" was created as an episode for the creators to also sit back and mock their own work. Toph's original design, as we've repeated over and over, was male. The male actor being in the play was a shoutout to that. When Toph said "I wouldn't have cast it any other way", that might very well just have been the creators' subtle way joking along the lines of I wonder what would've kept Toph's character a buff 16 year old boy, as originally planned.

      Agreed. Obviously Bryke had a reason for making Toph a girl. They were just musing on what might have happened if they kept her original plan.

      And the Ember Island Players was made specifically for comic relief in a time when there was a lot of stress on the plot. It was to give us a break.

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    • Steph32597s wrote:

      TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Oh, one more point: "The Ember Island Players" was created as an episode for the creators to also sit back and mock their own work. Toph's original design, as we've repeated over and over, was male. The male actor being in the play was a shoutout to that. When Toph said "I wouldn't have cast it any other way", that might very well just have been the creators' subtle way joking along the lines of I wonder what would've kept Toph's character a buff 16 year old boy, as originally planned.

      Agreed. Obviously Bryke had a reason for making Toph a girl. They were just musing on what might have happened if they kept her original plan.
      And the Ember Island Players was made specifically for comic relief in a time when there was a lot of stress on the plot. It was to give us a break.

      Yup. Hit the nail on the head!

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    • Aang, on the other hand, did not appreciate being depicted as a girl in The Ember Island Players episode."

      But wait, what if Aang is so deep in the closet about his transgender status that he's in denial of it? That happens more often than not. While I'm quite certain that I'm wasting words at this point, this is the problem with the argument: It can be reduced to absurdity, with literally anything taken as proof, but anything inconvenient downplayed or ignored.

      "I object to your unfair characterizations of these "smart alec emoticons". Even Wikipedia editors uses their emotion template, which is not as good as my emotion template (even if I say so myself) that I diligently put together and proposed to Avatar Wiki's war room. >>>THIS<<< is the part where I would have embedded the :eusa_snooty: emoticon to express my disapproval. I suppose I could do what others did, e.g., cut-and-paste tumblr/image links that you have to click just figure out what I am emoting, but that's kinda ghey."

      I'm generally amused at this whole thing. First of all, I'm not one of those people who insists that the word "gay" only ever be used in a positive context, but if I were, I probably wouldn't consider changing the spelling of it to live up to that spirit. 4Chan culture is not usually the way that the rest of the world does things. 4Chan also liberally uses most other slurs, & in particular uses "fag" in a sense that is much more like how you might say "that person" or "we the people." Then again, this is the same Wiki that finds no fault with that infamous "brownfacing" image & refuses to explain to me why not, so who the faq knows what their opinion would be.

      Secondly, invoking Reaction Images is a red herring. As the old saying goes, if the other users jumped off of a bridge, would you do it, too? But more to the point, overusing Reaction Images in an argument is considered exceedingly rude, & is understood as saying, "You're a complete idiot not even worth wasting words on."

      If I can understand this, though I have been repeatedly criticized for lacking internet etiquette, it is confusing how some people refuse to even acknowledge the problem with their behavior, much less reign it in, even when confronted by it multiple times. I am reminded of an admin on another Wiki, who insisted on talking like this!! Ending every sentence with dual exclamation points!! Though she repeatedly unnerved newbies who thought that she was yelling at them, instead of apologizing, giving fair warning, or generally showing any sign that she understood that the receiver matters in communication at least as much as the sender, she proceeded to "explain" how it was just "being chipper," even though clearly nobody got this message but her, & the people most likely thought that she was still yelling!!

      Back on this Wiki, you might notice that the Wiki template lacks any dismissive, "smart aleck" emoticons like "snooty." If one wants to be elitist using Wiki's template, then one would have to take something like "shades" out of its original context. By contrast, your template is half that, & the other half you don't use. And an emoticon is only as effective as the message that it conveys. Or not effective at all, because emoticons are...how you say, "ghey"?

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    • we're really beating a dead horse now. why don't we talk about something a little more new and fun, like this?

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    • Skimmed it, saw points that I knew I'd get mad about, so have been staying out of it.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote: we're really beating a dead horse now. why don't we talk about something a little more new and fun, like this?

      You and your shameless advertising :P

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote: Aang, on the other hand, did not appreciate being depicted as a girl in The Ember Island Players episode."

      But wait, what if Aang is so deep in the closet about his transgender status that he's in denial of it? That happens more often than not. While I'm quite certain that I'm wasting words at this point, this is the problem with the argument: It can be reduced to absurdity, with literally anything taken as proof, but anything inconvenient downplayed or ignored.

      "I object to your unfair characterizations of these "smart alec emoticons". Even Wikipedia editors uses their emotion template, which is not as good as my emotion template (even if I say so myself) that I diligently put together and proposed to Avatar Wiki's war room. >>>THIS<<< is the part where I would have embedded the :eusa_snooty: emoticon to express my disapproval. I suppose I could do what others did, e.g., cut-and-paste tumblr/image links that you have to click just figure out what I am emoting, but that's kinda ghey."

      I'm generally amused at this whole thing. First of all, I'm not one of those people who insists that the word "gay" only ever be used in a positive context, but if I were, I probably wouldn't consider changing the spelling of it to live up to that spirit. 4Chan culture is not usually the way that the rest of the world does things. 4Chan also liberally uses most other slurs, & in particular uses "fag" in a sense that is much more like how you might say "that person" or "we the people." Then again, this is the same Wiki that finds no fault with that infamous "brownfacing" image & refuses to explain to me why not, so who the faq knows what their opinion would be.

      Secondly, invoking Reaction Images is a red herring. As the old saying goes, if the other users jumped off of a bridge, would you do it, too? But more to the point, overusing Reaction Images in an argument is considered exceedingly rude, & is understood as saying, "You're a complete idiot not even worth wasting words on."

      If I can understand this, though I have been repeatedly criticized for lacking internet etiquette, it is confusing how some people refuse to even acknowledge the problem with their behavior, much less reign it in, even when confronted by it multiple times. I am reminded of an admin on another Wiki, who insisted on talking like this!! Ending every sentence with dual exclamation points!! Though she repeatedly unnerved newbies who thought that she was yelling at them, instead of apologizing, giving fair warning, or generally showing any sign that she understood that the receiver matters in communication at least as much as the sender, she proceeded to "explain" how it was just "being chipper," even though clearly nobody got this message but her, & the people most likely thought that she was still yelling!!

      Back on this Wiki, you might notice that the Wiki template lacks any dismissive, "smart aleck" emoticons like "snooty." If one wants to be elitist using Wiki's template, then one would have to take something like "shades" out of its original context. By contrast, your template is half that, & the other half you don't use. And an emoticon is only as effective as the message that it conveys. Or not effective at all, because emoticons are...how you say, "ghey"?

      Wow, Neo. You took what I side a step further. Great job, man :) Kudos for you :D

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    • TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Plus, Toph has shown affection for Sokka multiple times, like when she glomped and kissed whom she thought was Sokka and shamefully retracted when she was wrong... and when she turned around and tried to say that she didn't miss Sokka, but was blushing and smiling as she said it.

      Look, I get it. You ship Tokka, so you perceive my transgender hypothesis as a threat. I don't mean to sink your ship. I am just pointing out that there could be an iceberg ahead so you might want to brace for impact. But I could be wrong. Either way, don't shoot the messenger. I am not trying to rub my points on your face or try to be ostentatious. In lieu of my emoticons, I'll just let this image of J. K. Simmons and Aaron Eckhart do the emoting for me.

      http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/480x360q90/20/fz2v.jpg
      TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      You know, Hasdi, when you say "ghey" instead of "gay", then it absolutely does not sound like the same word at all. No, siree. In fact, I have no idea, whatsoever, which word you are trying to substitute for. It's just like when people put stars in curse words (i.e. "sh*t" for "shit")

      Ooookay... Let me be very clear on this. I used the word "ghey" as a substitute for "lame", not to be confused with "gay" that is a common term for "homosexual". Therefore, cutting and pasting tumblr/image links is not "gay". THIS is "gay":

      As you can see, Sohka and Tahno can be lovers in another life, and may be transgenders in the future! Icon_lolno.gif

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    • it has nothing to do with shipping tokka. in fact i despise that ship: it would mean inscest.

      it's the fact that your hypothesis has been proven wrong with canon facts.

      now can we please drop this issue?

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      now can we please drop this issue?

      Don't look at me. I was willing to sit this out until The Rift comes out but others are keeping this thread alive at my expense. Lixa.gif

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    • so stop responding.

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    • Don't feed the trolls. Got it.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      it has nothing to do with shipping tokka. in fact i despise that ship: it would mean inscest.

      it's the fact that your hypothesis has been proven wrong with canon facts.

      now can we please drop this issue?

      Incest? Are Sokka and Toph related? O_o

      Oh wait, you mean Lin + Tenzin would be incest then? I suppose, though marriages between cousins have been considered pretty acceptable for much of human history. And it wouldn't be a problem as far as genetics is concerned in this case, since Aang, Katara, Sokka and Toph come from 3 different bloodlines, so their kids would be very genetically diverse.

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    • No, but the whole Tenzin and Lin thing...well...they would be cousins, so...

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    • It's been posted/discussed elsewhere, but I highly doubt that either the creators of the show or Nick would allow something like incest to happen. Even if it creeps in.

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    • I doubt he ships Tokka, He is just using the CANON evidence for Tophs heterosexuality to counter your evidence for her being Transgender.

      Also just stop. The emoticons and consistent use of photos do not make you seem clever. They make you seem like a jerk.

      So screw you, screw your liberal extremist agenda, screw m Night Shyamalan, screw the film, and screw you trying to sandwich something that is clearly not appropriate for a Y7 show into it.

      Jackson and Rami are ACTORS they act that like gay lovers in that role, to get PAID. An actors role as one character in another work of fiction does NOT necessarily reflect his inflection in the role of another.

      If ATLA or LOK was a PG or M you may have some clout to support this argument, but the fact is by the nature of it being a Y7 show, you do not.

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    • "...screw your liberal extremist agenda...and screw you trying to sandwich something that is clearly not appropriate for a Y7 show into it."

      ...Wut?

      I just want it on record that I said that the comments were beating a dead horse, but that this was rendered moot when a response was made. As for the current direction of the thread, I am ambivalent. I can't tell what's trolling & what's supposed to be legitimate, but someone will probably come along to investigate this topic sooner or later anyway, probably without any clearer answers.

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    • @Hasdi Wow, now you've got telepathy, as well? My, my, Hasdi! You are simply on a roll. How amazing. Dude, I'd better watch out for your knowledge on everyone's ships and deductive reasoning... oh, wait... there is none, because I don't ship Tokka. I shipped Toph with Aang back in the day and the only threat to that was Katara... whom I shipped with Zuko and the only threat to that was Mai XD So, no. I was simply telling you time and time again that Toph does show clear feelings for Sokka. I always found the ship annoying and nasty, but you should know that I was just saying that to challenge your transgender hypothesis.

      I am absolutely sure that you were. Because the word "ghey" has absolutely no connection to "gay" and any intentions matching it. I am absolutely sure. You know, if someone ever says "eff you" to me, then I will be so happy and obliged to know that the person did not go ahead and say "fuck you", because they're two completely different and unrelated phrases with completely different and unrelated connotations. How could I be so naïve? Hasdi, thank you so much for teaching the difference between "ghey" and "gay"? Silly me... how could I even group the two words together in the same though?

      I would say "screw you", but RaidenRadio beat me to it.

      @RaidenRadio Lmfaooooo tell him, dude XD

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    • Also, I was even more repelled by Tokka when I found out that Tenzin and Lin were dating.

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    • TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Also, I was even more repelled by Tokka when I found out that Tenzin and Lin were dating.

      You know that this happens in life all the time, not that surprising.

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    • Cat Girl Blizzard wrote:
      TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Also, I was even more repelled by Tokka when I found out that Tenzin and Lin were dating.
      You know that this happens in life all the time, not that surprising.

      In the US, it is illegal to marry your first cousin. You can marry your third cousin (in some states, you can marry your second cousin), but not your first.

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    • Okay, honestly, incest still seriously increases the chance for birth defects and, if Toph and Sokka do end up being together, then I'm done with Avatar.

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    • we really should just let this thread die now. we're just beating a dead horse. nobody reply after this. in fact, let's get an admin to close it. anyone opposed to that idea?

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    • Incest actually only increases the odds of birth defects by a few percent.

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    • Steph32597s wrote:
      Cat Girl Blizzard wrote:
      TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Also, I was even more repelled by Tokka when I found out that Tenzin and Lin were dating.
      You know that this happens in life all the time, not that surprising.
      In the US, it is illegal to marry your first cousin. You can marry your third cousin (in some states, you can marry your second cousin), but not your first.

      You say America, but in most other countries you can marry your first cousin.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      we really should just let this thread die now. we're just beating a dead horse. nobody reply after this. in fact, let's get an admin to close it. anyone opposed to that idea?

      Oppose

      Oppose — You don't close out a thread just because you disagree with the arguments. It's a bad precedent and blatant censorship. If you have problem with the trolls, then have the admin deal with the trolls, not the thread.

      If you don't want to hear any more of of this thread, just unfollow.

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    • Pretty sure threads can be closed for lacking in substance.

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    • Cat Girl Blizzard wrote:

      You say America, but in most other countries you can marry your first cousin.

      Guess where the creators live? America.

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    • Steph32597s wrote:
      Cat Girl Blizzard wrote:

      You say America, but in most other countries you can marry your first cousin.

      Guess where the creators live? America.

      I know. 

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    • The entire idea of incest doesn't bring to the table anything that would be positive for the show and the series. Despite whether or not it increases birth defects and other related issues along that line, the backlash alone would probally can the show for good. I'd rather that not happen.

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    • Kubernes wrote: The entire idea of incest doesn't bring to the table anything that would be positive for the show and the series. Despite whether or not it increases birth defects and other related issues along that line, the backlash alone would probally can the show for good. I'd rather that not happen.

      I'm still not cool with the birth defects part of it. That whole thing is a hot mess that should just be avoided altogether.

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    • All right guys, keep the thread constructive or it will be closed.

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    • I'm not endorsing incest, though I have a sneaking suspicion that, if it did happen, it would just fly right over a lot of peoples' heads. Think about The Lion King 2. Now, technically, Kovu was changed to Scar's ADOPTED cub to AVOID the incest problem, but most people don't actually know this, yet don't have a problem with the movie.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Think about The Lion King 2. Now, technically, Kovu was changed to Scar's ADOPTED cub to AVOID the incest problem.

      Similarly, Sokka can be changed to Hakoda's son from his previous wife who died at childbirth before Hakoda married Kya and had Katara, which explains why Sokka's bond with Kya's is not as Katara's. Sokka even can be turned into Hakoda and Kya's adopted son after years trying to have baby, which explains the short age gap between Sokka and Katara, i.e., they didn't expect to conceive a baby soon after adopting their first.

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    • No, that would be a blatant cop out. Kovu's status was changed before the movie was made, & there's even a line saying that he's not Scar's real son, albeit it's fleeting & people often forget about it. Also, "explains" implies that there's some kind of mystery, which there is not.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      "explains" implies that there's some kind of mystery, which there is not.


      I was referring to Katara's response to Sokka in The Southern Raiders episode:

      Zuko: This is about getting closure and justice.
      Aang: I don't think so. I think it's about getting revenge.
      Katara: Fine, maybe it is! Maybe that's what I need! Maybe that's what he deserves!
      Sokka: Katara, she was my mother, too, but I think Aang might be right.
      Katara: Then you didn't love her the way I did! 

      Yeah, it would be a cop-out but if it needs to be, they could make Tokka happen. I ship Sukka but I have resigned to the possibility that they might change course in the near future.

      Suki_worried_about_Zuko.png
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    • I know what you were referring to. It's not mysterious. They had different outlooks on the situation & Katara lashed out at him. It needs no "explanation."

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    • Considering the next Free comic book Day comic is Sokka and Suki centered, I highly doubt Zuki will ever become canon.

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    • It would be something to ask the writers behind the comics. Unless something terrible between Sokka and Suki or they really focus on bring Zuki together, I don't really expect Zuki will happen either.

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    • crud...we had three days of this thread being left alone.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote: crud...we had three days of this thread being left alone.

      Lmfao as they say, "all good things must come to an end" -__-

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      Unless something terrible between Sokka and Suki or they really focus on bring Zuki together,

      They (Nick) need to explain how Fire Nation is Japanese despite using Chinese aesthetics in ATLA, while it is the Kyoshi Warriors who use Japanese aesthetics. The logical approach is to integrate Kyoshi Warriors into the Fire Nation. Zuko is likely to end up with a Kyoshi Warrior, though it may not Suki.

      It's not personal, just Sino-American relations at work.

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    • which don't really apply in avatarverse. the fire nation, and earth kingdom aren't based on a single asian country.

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    • Hasdi wrote:
      Kubernes wrote:
      Unless something terrible between Sokka and Suki or they really focus on bring Zuki together,
      They (Nick) need to explain how Fire Nation is Japanese despite using Chinese aesthetics in ATLA, while it is the Kyoshi Warriors who use Japanese aesthetics. The logical approach is to integrate Kyoshi Warriors into the Fire Nation. Zuko is likely to end up with a Kyoshi Warrior, though it may not Suki.

      It's not personal, just Sino-American relations at work.

      I don't see Nick doing anything along those lines. Maybe the creators or the comic team? There's always Ty Lee now to fill in the role as that Kyoshi Warrior unless someone creates another KW character.

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    • they aren't necessarly Chinese, they are Primarily Thai-and Indonesia inspired, with some Chinese Aesthetics for The sake of keeping the worlds look Homogenous and consistent, and their political situation, geography, and industrial superiority is based upon Meiji/World War 2 Japan.

      http://atla-annotated.tumblr.com/post/23478761249/the-imperial-roofs-of-the-fire-nation-and-earth

      http://atla-annotated.tumblr.com/image/16626936639

      http://atla-annotated.tumblr.com/image/20054393534

      If it really concerns you that much, then spin it off into another thread, try not to bring your prejudices and/or politics into this discussion.

      Toph is NOT transgender, Zuki is NOT canon, and I highly doubt Bryan and Mike would allow a retcon of that level in comics or the show.

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    • RaidenRadio wrote:

      they aren't necessarly Chinese, they are Primarily Thai-and Indonesia inspired, with some Chinese Aesthetics for The sake of keeping the worlds look Homogenous and consistent, and their political situation, geography, and industrial superiority is based upon Meiji/World War 2 Japan.

      http://atla-annotated.tumblr.com/post/23478761249/the-imperial-roofs-of-the-fire-nation-and-earth

      http://atla-annotated.tumblr.com/image/16626936639

      http://atla-annotated.tumblr.com/image/20054393534

      If it really concerns you that much, then spin it off into another thread, try not to bring your prejudices and/or politics into this discussion.

      Toph is NOT transgender, Zuki is NOT canon, and I highly doubt Bryan and Mike would allow a retcon of that level in comics or the show.

      Agreed.
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    • now can we leave this thread alone?

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      I don't see Nick doing anything along those lines. Maybe the creators or the comic team? There's always Ty Lee now to fill in the role as that Kyoshi Warrior unless someone creates another KW character.

      Nick would as they have more at stake than the creators or the comic team. Taking a stance in Tibetan sovereignty debate and other geopolitical issues is risky business, especially for an animated American show on a children's network.

      Anywho, Sukka is not sure thing. Ty Lee is an option, though Suki has been foreshadowed. If Suki goes, then Sokka is free to pursue other love interests. It could be Toph but I doubt it. All predictions are wrong until the future has come to past, including mine.

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    • uh... Sukka is the winning ship - nothing has contradicted it so far.

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    • Yup Sukka.

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    • Nick and Bryan pretty much already excluded the Communist Chinese audience by making the main character a fantasic counterpart to the Dalai Lama. Something Shyamalan should have taken into account when he wrote the script for the live action film.

      The Biggest Reason I Hate The Movie

      Not to mention Bryan and Mike gave very subtle jabs at Communist China in Season 2 of LOK.

      The Chinese Occupation Of Tibet

      President Raiko and Sun Yat Sen

      If the FN beng an allegory for commmunist China really is that big an issue, then downplay the Chinese aspects and emphasize the Thai aspects. No need to break sokka and suki up just to fit your political agenda.

      There is no Debate, I will always consider Tibet a Sovereign nation, as should all who value freedom and culture.

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    • RaidenRadio wrote:
      Nick and Bryan pretty much already excluded the Communist Chinese audience by making the main character a fantasic counterpart to the Dalai Lama. Something Shyamalan should have taken into account when he wrote the script for the live action film.

      Then you don't understand China's issue with Tibet. China don't want or have to kill off Dalai Lama. They just want to make sure the next Dalai Lama they pick is friendly to the government of China, by outlawing his reincarnation of course. You know, kinda like how America picked a UNOCAL consultant to head up Afghanistan after they successfully captured Osama Bin Laden?

      No need to break sokka and suki up just to fit your political agenda.

      It's not my agenda and it's certainly not up to me what they want to do with Sokka and Suki, or even Toph's gender identity. Don't shoot the messenger.

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    • Pretty sure messengers would probably face punishment for delivering fabricated or exaggerated messages.

      Well, I clearly know jack about world politics, but I like "outlawing reincarnation." Can I outlaw ghosts--by which I mean outlaw something that there's no evidence that it even exists, & even if I did, I wouldn't be able to do anything about it?

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    • Hey, I'm chinese and I absolutley love Avatar, there's nothing wrong with it.

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    • They're talking about the Chinese government.

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    • Would the Intolerant Communist Chinese Censors even accept a live action airbender film with a transgender toph? I highly doubt it.

      It's not in the interest of anyone to make Toph something she is not.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSTYik0t_FM

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    • RaidenRadio wrote:
      Would the Intolerant Communist Chinese Censors even accept a live action airbender film with a transgender toph? I highly doubt it.

      Ahem....

      Hell, even the Iranian government helps transgenders with to half the cost to undergo gender reassignment and to recognize the sex change in their birth certificate.[1]

      This is America, land of the freeeeeeee.....

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    • They would just edit the movie to change or remove that type of scene/character. Take Iron Man 3 or Skyfall and the changes made to it for Chinese release.

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    • RaidenRadio wrote: Would the Intolerant Communist Chinese Censors even accept a live action airbender film with a transgender toph? I highly doubt it.

      It's not in the interest of anyone to make Toph something she is not.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSTYik0t_FM

      Exactly. And she's not transgendered.

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    • Let's not stop reading halfway down:

      "In China, gender reassignment is still a taboo topic, and gender reassignment surgery can be prohibitively expensive and restricted. A 2010 report from the International Gay & Lesbian Human Rights Commission on China describes the level of discrimination faced by transgender Chinese citizens: Transgendered people face serious levels of police harassment in China. The transgendered community also faces particular difficulties in obtaining employment. The Chinese authorities are currently consulting on new rules on gender realignment surgery. In certain aspects these rules fail to meet international standards on individual autonomy and privacy."

      And while I approve of Iran providing those services, it is EXTREMELY disingenuous to imply that it's out of progressive good will. They say themselves, the ulterior motive is to "maintain the social order." The article also includes such lovely treatises of tolerance as "homosexuality is still punishable by death" and "they pray for me to die soon."

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    • Nevertheless, we shouldn't be too quick to dismiss LGBT progress of other nations just because we disagree with their economic or political system. The American public isn't exactly a prime example of peace and tolerance anyway, though we are getting there...

      http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/400x400q90/856/in8k.jpg

      Now, on RaidenRadio's argument that China would not allow a transgender Toph in the live-action movie... I have to disagree. Back in 1992, we had Jet Li's wuxia movie Swordsman II, in which his character fell in love with a woman and later slept with her, not knowing she was the MALE villain he met earlier who underwent supernatural castration to achieve the highest level of Kung Fu possible. He even slept with her. Yeah.

      The transgender villain was played a popular Taiwanese actress Brigitte Lin who made a career of playing gender bending roles including a tomboy in Peking Opera Blues and a woman disguised as a man in New Dragon Gate Inn. If Taiwanese society has no issues with her playing such roles, I doubt a Taiwanese American like Gene Yang would be opposed to the idea of Toph as a transgender boy. Not saying that he would do it, just that it is not necessarily against his Taiwanese background.

      BTW, did anyone else notice that Brigitte Lin's surname is the same as Lin Beifong's given name? Coincidence, or conspiracy?

      DUN-DUN-DUUUUN!!!

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    • Nevertheless, we shouldn't be too quick to dismiss LGBT progress of other nations just because we disagree with their economic or political system. The American public isn't exactly a prime example of peace and tolerance anyway, though we are getting there...

      I didn't? I basically said that neither country is as far ahead as you are implying. China has much the same situation as the US. Iran has better transgender rights, but worse rights for the rest of the LGBT movement. So they only have better policies in regards to a very small group of people. And this completely ignores the obvious disconnect between the government's opinion & the peoples'.

      Also, why don't you follow your own advice & stop accusing racebending.com of hypocrisy as though it somehow invalidates what they are saying? Even if it is true, you basically just proved that you can have social progress even if it's marked by hypocrisy. In fact, historically, it usually is.

      Now, on RaidenRadio's argument that China would not allow a transgender Toph in the live-action movie... I have to disagree. Back in 1992, we had Jet Li's wuxia movie Swordsman II, in which his character fell in love with a woman and later slept with her, not knowing she was the MALE villain he met earlier who underwent supernatural castration to achieve the highest level of Kung Fu possible. He even slept with her. Yeah.

      I don't know. We also have some transgender movies. It doesn't necessarily reflect that it's considered A-okay at large.

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    • Here's a thing, if content of any sort would change peoples' way of thinking, then the Chinese Communist Government would be opposed to it. They don't want transgender, etc... to become an increasing popul