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  • How different do you guys think ATLA and LOK would be if, rather than being targeted for kids/young teenagers, it would be targeted for older teens and young adults? The mythology and characters would still be the same, but it would be directed for a much older audience and probably wouldn't be on nick.

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    • Honestly, most of the cartoons aimed at adults are kinda ridiculous. Funny, but extremely ridiculous. 

      If LoK was a show aimed at older viewers, I'd be deathly afraid.

      I would freak out if I heard Korra say a cuss word. Not because I've never heard it or because I'm immature, but because it would be just shocking. I would be less surprised if Dora the Explorer started cussing at me through the television screen, than if I heard Korra start cursing.

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    • I would definitely enjoy an Avatar universe that had the license to delve into more mature subject matter. Not full Game of Thrones, mind you, but just something that can actually show stuff like blood without having to sugar coat things or mention them off screen, or go into complex subjects like political intrigue or battle tactics without having to go back and think "Oh wait, will the kids be able to follow this ok? Should we just make this guy/girl a villain and not give him/her a viable backstory to make the character sympathetic? Cause that might be confusing".

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    • The Air Nomad Critic wrote:
      Not full Game of Thrones, mind you, but just something that can actually show stuff like blood without having to sugar coat things

      ^Ugh. Blood is kinda iffy for me. Even in cartoons. I can't even watch Family Guy because of blood.

      That's actually one of the reasons that I liked ATLA: only two characters were shown bleeding in the entire series. And the injuries shown weren't massive bones breaking (which probably happens in bending) or severed body parts (with waterbending slices, possible).

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    • So long as such things were used in moderation and had reason in the storytelling, I would see no problem with them. If the injuries had real impact with the characters, they could potentially add some interesting developments. Then again, I've seen plenty of incredibly violent animation and live action programming as well as read some gruesome tales, so I may have been desensitized a bit.

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    • Every female character's boobs would be insanely overdrawn

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    • I imagine if the avatar series was targeted for an older audience, we would see a lot of the events that were talked about, rather than shown. An example being the Air Nomad Genocide.

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    • Or some of the potentially more grisly bits of the Siege of the North or the Day of Black Sun.

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    • There are plenty of ways to do a 'mature' Avatar series without lots of blood, gore, language, and adult situations. I bet if you changed LoK book 1 ending and left Korra with just airbending, you would have had alot of people saying it was a mature look at the costs of defeating evil/corruption.

      Number 1 way to make it more mature? Don't have a main villain (Unalaq). Instead, focus on an antagonistic character(s). We had that with Zuko and Azula with the first series.

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    • Again, didn't say there had to be lots of blood, or any gore or language. It's just odd to have a series so focused on violence that never seems to have characters get wounded beyond burns. A laceration here and there or a brief and relatively clean background character death to remind people that hey, these characters could very well die when they wade into combat rather than just get knocked out. Maybe some more complex plots that don't necessarily need a person to be completely evil like Ozai. Like Unalaq if he didn't have that connection to Vaatu.

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    • I'd be very interested. Of course, as TANC said, it doesn't need to go all the way like GoT, or other series like Spartacus, but I would like a harsher franchise. If the series were to be like that, I think it would also be interesting if the episodes were ~40 minutes long instead of the usual ~20 minutes.

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    • Look at the original Spartacus (1960). Granted that it's a movie, but there's gladiator battles, general warfare, crucifiction, and a number of deaths. All of this in a general audience feature because of the way it was handled.

      There are quite a number of animations that do a good job of bringing mature themes in a relatively mature manner.

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    • Perhaps get the Batman the Animated Series team or the Justice League creators they managed to do some extremely adult storylines and scenes that I still can't watch, because i'm still not over some of it. But the first season had some tension screaming scenes (Korra being hostage to Amon at Aang's statue). Be awesome if they made that whole season as long as The Last Airbender seasons.

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    • we just plain need more korra. it's hard to really develop a plot in just 12-14 episodes (especially since they want a different plot for each book), although they do a really good job working with what they have.

      me being the kind of person who watches shows like grimm and revolution, i'd love to see some more mature stuff in korra. when i first got into avatar in high school (due to the terrible film - see there's a silver lining in everything haha), i started by watching the episdoes online. after seeing the first episodes i was ready to quit because they just looked so childish. of course, i'm really glad i didn't now, (the bending really drew me in, as i was a huge bionicle fan growing up. also, i remembered seeing some avatar stuff in the lego magazines, but i didn't get into it then. i had wondered back then if the "bending" was like the elemental manipulation in bionicle or what, so when i started watching the episodes, i was excited to find out it was.) but i'd love to see some avatar that isn't restricted to the childish guidelines set forth by nick. really, anything besides y7, that's basically G-rated. we could at least bump it up to PG here people.

      someone mentioned something about being shocked about korra swearing, but judging from her age and character type, i bet in reality (as real as a cartoon can get) she swears like a rap star. and on being less shocked to hear dora swear, i think that shocked me a little. (i mean no offense whatsoever to whoever said that. i couldn't think of a way to say it without sounding somewhat rude.)

      try to re-imagine the episode lake laogai with out the y7 restrictions...much better, yes? now how about the kb1 finale?

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    • Just remove the last 5 or so minutes of the finale and you're set.

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    • ??

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    • Remove the last 5 or so minutes of the book 1 finale is an easy re-imagining.

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    • yeah but that doesn't have anything with being more mature...? i meant imagine how it would have gone had the y7 restrictions not been there.

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    • Korra IS targeted towards teens/older adults. Good shorthand, age of the main cast. Which is currently 18-19.

      Now, if we're asking about it not being made "kid friendly" & with the "Y7" restriction, that is slightly different. In which case, one only has to consider where these characters & situations are being inspired from. Miyazaki films, FLCL, Neon Genesis Evangelion, & recently Fullmetal Alchemist.

      So, would it have harsher gore or language? Maybe. If memory serves, Miyazaki films & FLCL* have very little of those things, but NGE & FMA can have quite a bit--though they're still no "God of War."

      So, the way I see it, there's a best & worst case scenario.

      The worst case scenario is something like Steph is worried about, where there's just gore & swearing for the sake of gore & swearing. And honestly, that does kind of worry me. Sometimes, I get the feeling that the censors force the writers to be creative where they would normally just kill something. A great example is the Fire Nation soldier that Mike & Bryan were considering to have incinerated with only his smoking boots remaining. Which would have been ridiculous. I can't say that they would do that without the censors stopping them, but maybe they would. Killing him in a more realistic fashion, by the way, does not necessarily make it better, because it would have probably resulted in a more stereotypically "violent & crazy" Azula. Which is not what made her character successful.

      As a side note, I don't see Korra as having that much of a mouth. Partly because they're good at writing believable dialogue that avoids it, but also because having an aggressive personality doesn't guarantee that a person will use naughty words. Korra's typical response, when angered, seems to be to retort with whatever is bothering her. She doesn't often seem to make any kind of "shut up" or "you suck" comments, which could be replaced with expletives.

      Back to the point, the best case scenario is something like TANC is saying. It would be more explicit, but for the sake of realism, not titillation. Again, FMA & kind of NGE are good examples of this. FMA has a really violent flashback to the Ishval Civil War, but it's not about showing violence because violence is cool, it's about realistically depicting the horrors of war. This logic can also be applied with other subjects taboo for children, like swearing & sex. This I might like to see. Let's face it, if you can't decimate your cast, you're probably holding a bit too much back to be believable in an action series.

      NGE similarly deconstructs teen fantasy violence, but the reason why I said that it doesn't count as much is because, in that case, the writer WAS deliberately pushing the limits on what he could show. It resulted in stricter censorship for shonen anime, & hence a lot of arms were spared when Bleach was adapted.

      One last thing, I think the expectation that the show would somehow be more complicated is cherry picking. There's a hero & a villain because it's a fantasy story, not because it's "for children." And "mature" really just means "older," not necessarily "smarter."

      • =Little in the way of outright language. FLCL's thing is that everything is an innuendo. Everything. Yes, even that part.
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    • So the age of the main characters determines everything?

      Honestly, I'm sure there are plenty of MA-rated horror films and books which have children as the main character, what about all the potential for gruesome and terrifying insanity within young people?

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    • The age of the main characters almost always determines the target audience, plus the creators outright said that they were aging up the show to correlate with the fans of the original.

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    • which is why it is unfortunate that it is still y7. they could move it to nick at nite and avoid that.

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    • It is? What about 'fartbending'? That kind of throws everything off.. XD

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    • GuybrushismyAngel wrote:
      It is? What about 'fartbending'? That kind of throws everything off.. XD


      Oh my gosh. Yes. XD

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    • what does fartbending throw off?

      fartbending is something that would be part of the whole y7 thing, although i will say i didn't mind it, it's wonderfully creative.

      "never underestimate the power of stink!"

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    • If ATLA and LoK were for older teenagers and younger adults,it would probably feature more violence(probably not) and they might have had a little dirty humor.And they would be MUCH darker.


      I wonder how porn would be like in the series lol jk xD

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    • "more violence(probably not)"

      so, more violence or not dude?

      "i wonder how porn..."

      wtf?! even shows that are "more mature" don't show porn and stuff. although that said, i'm sure you could find like some fanart or something out there... 8O

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:

      wtf?! even shows that are "more mature" don't show porn and stuff.

      ^Thank you!

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    • It's just the mentality that more mature must mean sexual content or violence.

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      It's just the mentality that more mature must mean sexual content or violence.

      True.

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    • it usually does mean those things, however that (porn) is in a separate category all on its own: it's just for, well, that, and nothing else. even R rated movies are for something else besides that, and have a plot to go along with it and stuff. plus, we're talking about something on television, and rated R stuff isn't aired on television. so more "mature" doesn't mean stuff on the extreme end of that spectrum, but just in that general direction. the highest rating on tv that i've seen if TV-14.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote: it usually does mean those things, however that (porn) is in a separate category all on its own: it's just for, well, that, and nothing else. even R rated movies are for something else besides that, and have a plot to go along with it and stuff. plus, we're talking about something on television, and rated R stuff isn't aired on television. so more "mature" doesn't mean stuff on the extreme end of that spectrum, but just in that general direction. the highest rating on tv that i've seen if TV-14.

      You've never seen a TV-MA rating on television before?

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    • I have, for adult-like shows. Samurai Jack, aand shows similiar usually.

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    • Empressofmelnibone wrote: I have, for adult-like shows. Samurai Jack, aand shows similiar usually.

      YES SAMURAI JACK :D

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    • Well to it's credit shows back then were made both for adults and kids.

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    • So much fan art. Safe Search is never safe.

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    • lol neo

      empress...samurai jack is tv-ma?? that can't be right....

      swoosh, good point, i should correct myself by saying the highest rating my tired brain could think of on the spot as i was writing. although in my defense, wikipedia said that programs with tvma ratings usually aren't aired on tv due to fcc guidelines/content restrictions or something.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      "more violence(probably not)"

      so, more violence or not dude?

      "i wonder how porn..."

      wtf?! even shows that are "more mature" don't show porn and stuff. although that said, i'm sure you could find like some fanart or something out there... 8O

      Dude,I was kidding -_- of course we don't need to see things like that in the series...

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    • This is my first post so please dont judge me. I was wondeering something like  more mature Avatar series with story telling and charachter development similiar to The Walking Dead.

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    • Trolllllllllllllllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
      This is my first post so please dont judge me. I was wondeering something like  more mature Avatar series with story telling and charachter development similiar to The Walking Dead.

      We won't judge you. Don't worry. And welcome!

      Yeah. The Walking Dead has a decent story line. I can't watch it though. I have a super weak stomach. XD

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    • Thank you!

      So anyway, I wonder how an Avatar series like Legend of Korra be if it wer more mature and explained like the Walking Dead?

      Maybe team Avatar would be dying off from time to time. Like the same way it does in the Walking Dead.

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    • Trolllllllllllllllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
      Thank you!

      So anyway, I wonder how an Avatar series like Legend of Korra be if it wer more mature and explained like the Walking Dead?

      Maybe team Avatar would be dying off from time to time. Like the same way it does in the Walking Dead.

      No deaths. I think more strategy. More of a fight for survival rather than normal fight.

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    • the fact that basically all fights are fought with bending abilities pretty effectively eliminates the violence that is so much more prominent in more mature shows. but i agree, i don't think they would be killing off main cast members very much; character designs are a pain to come up with so often.

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    • People getting ice shards driven through their eye sockets, third degree burns, crushed heads... I could go on and on...

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    • Well, there was that Korra and Tarrlok fight. Plenty of cuts and no blood. Not like it was needed.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote: the fact that basically all fights are fought with bending abilities pretty effectively eliminates the violence that is so much more prominent in more mature shows. but i agree, i don't think they would be killing off main cast members very much; character designs are a pain to come up with so often.

      Like I said, decimation is a good policy to go by. Enough character deaths to put the fear of Vaatu in people, but not so many that you lack a stable cast.

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    • Rolling rovers wrote:
      People getting ice shards driven through their eye sockets, third degree burns, crushed heads... I could go on and on...

      Decapitation, disembowelment, laceration, classic lit-on-fire deaths, electricution to the point that the insides blow up, bloodbending used to turn the fluids in your body into ice and have them burst out of you like stalagmites, dismemberment, streching to the point that the body rips appart, rape (I guess), ice spike kebabs, stalagmite pit falls, mauled to death by a polar bear-dog, trampled by a sky bison, eaten by a dark spirit, squashed by a dark avatar, incenerated violently by Vatuu`s beam, Hara-kiri, lungbending, and of course crucifiction.

      Yeah I know a lot.

      Charachter deaths happen in the Walking Dead so many times I lost count. Avarage time span for a charachter is half an episode or longest would be half a seasson. If Avatar were like that, there would be a lot of charachters being recicled over and over again. Neo Bhamut is right, it is hard to get a stable cast from so many charachter deaths. Fortunantly, Walking Dead hasnt suffered from this. Still an awesome series.

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    • "classic lit-on-fire deaths"

      Immolation.

      "electricution to the point that the insides blow up"

      Electrocution. Also, I'm pretty sure it doesn't do that.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      Electrocution. Also, I'm pretty sure it doesn't do that.

      You can catch on fire. Like in Child's Play I. XD

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    • I don't think you'd have to constantly kill main cast to instill an effect. There are even alternative means to show "death" without constantly coming up with unique designs. 

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    • If the franchise had a PG-13 rating. . .  we could see a lot more on the part of bryan mike and company. But as long as Nickelodeon refuses to get its head out of its rear. . .

      What really bugged me about ATLA was that we never really got to see the big epic LOTR level battles. They were heavily implied to have happened offscreen, and we got close to big and epic battles (like the siege of the north, The Day Of Black Sun), and we saw the Aftermath of the Big epic battle. but we never actually saw the big epic battles. Most fights were kept on a relatively small scale.

      I mean, we all know the FN wiped out the Air Nomads. But can you imagine how much more emotionally gripping it would have been to actually witness the Air Nomad Genocide?

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    • Budget. But yeah, it is a bit irritating how much of the "real action" happens offcreen.

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    • Hey, it worked for NGE.

      Kudos on the Roy Mustang Avatar BTW.

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    • "We've pretty much hit rock bottom, so we drew the climax with crayons & a flipbook. I am not joking." And then End of Evangelion happened, & I still have mixed feelings about that.

      Thanks, but you know, I'm really mad that you can't read the text in the forum. It was big, block text, so I thought I'd be okay, but then it ended up getting shrunk waaaaay down.

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    • BTW if you didn't know Hideaki Anno (the creator of NGE) is voicing the main character in Miyazaki's last movie.

      What text?

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    • The avatar is basically an Obama-style campaign poster, only instead of "HOPE," it reads, "TINY MINISKIRTS."

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    • back on topic. . .

      Maybe if we ever get that 90-minute animated ATLA/LOK theatrical spinoff film we might get to see some more "adult" themes explored.

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    • just do the time exactly between the two with the old TLA cast having to adapt (and us too) to being older.

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    • that would actually be perfect...but let's bump it up to like 120 minutes and show it in theaters - that would pull in plenty of revenue. and please make it PG-13.

      imagine a film like that that's all about the yakone problem.../imagines/ /gets excited/ But preferably something new.

      or avatar wan...

      or any of the other avatars.

      @neo

      why would budget problems cause problems with the plot of an animation? i think the y7 rating and time limit are the real problem with action happening off screen.

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    • Raiden: Well, I thought it was funny.

      I4: Because large battles involve a lot of moving objects to animate with a lot of effects. Different types of scenes may even require different software or even different studios. That's why the Pierrot episodes looked so bad during the talking scenes--they pretty much exclusively specialize in fights.

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    • I don't think a series, in order to make success needs extreme violence, too much blood or gore in order to succeed.

      More realistic fights, where people actually GET beaten/hit by bending strikes [actually LOK improved that, with firebending blasts that hit people sometimes], and airplanes explode without every single pilot parachuting his way to freedom is a good start. 

      I agree with Neo Bahamut on that part about Azula incinerating the FN captain, after his failure. That would be simply ridiculous. There are better forms of showing how awesome she is [such as striking a lightning bolt on the enemy WHEN he is charging his attack, instead of usually waiting for it and getting beaten, a classic movie/animation villain error].

      But that sort of scene would be impossible, given the canon explanations for firebending, which consists in a mystical form of generating fire (no need for fuel, the chi is the fuel itself, so it seems). And this "fire" has similar properties with our real life one, so it would probably even melt his [the soldier] armor at first. A fireball blast would definetly leave some burns/scars like the one Zuko got, but "just leaving the boots" is something that reminds me of War of the Worlds, where a supposedly advanced heat/particle beam has the property of "vaporizing" everything, except people's clothes LOL. 

      On big battles, I really believed this was a flaw [mostly due to money constraints I think], however there are quite some shows [like Kingdom, for example] with Chinese based mass-scale warfares in nearly each episode, and I'm pretty sure the production costs weren't anything higher than ATLA/LOK was. And I'm not talking about the average conflict seen in Avatar, I'm talking about warfare with over dozens of thousands... since probably siege of the North would look like this scene from the movie Hero, difference it would be battled in the snow.

      ---

      As a side note, is that true, Raiden? that Hideaki Anno will be voice acting one character (the main one!!) at "The Wind Rises"??? that's quite awesome, I didn't even knew that! 

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    • My idea with lightning is that people would never intentionally shock people unless they intend to kill. In my fanfic, when Firebenders use lightning, they use sparks like the Equalist gloves did. They can definitely stop attackers, but they don't kill.

      But that's just my view on lightning.

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    • @steph

      the charge on lightning can be controlled, as seen by mako and azula.

      @qin

      "more realistic"

      yes! that is exactly what i'm looking for. you're right that a series doesn't have to have violence to be successful, but it should be realistic. like those fireballs you mentioned: currently, they do about as much damage as a blast of water. but in reality, they'd ignite almost anything they touch. a person wearing normal clothes shouldn't come away from a fireball unburnt. and after getting hit by a water blast, the person should, oh i don't know, look wet? air doesn't have any lasting effects as far as animation is concerned, but as with the other two, a boulder would do some damage, there should be some bruising or something. imagine a very large compact clay disk hitting you at high speed. i'd be out cold.

      and if there's blood, then show some blood. if there's not, then that's great too. but there definitely should have been some blood outside of some people's bodies after getting hit in some of the ways we've seen.

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    • I think i'd rather see mature themes, relationships, and context before they tackle realistic fighting. When I watch kungfu movies, I'm not looking for blood/broken bones/extreme injuries. I'm looking for how they're fighting, the lighting, the sounds, and the environments.

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    • Kubernes wrote:
       When I watch kungfu movies, I'm not looking for blood/broken bones/extreme injuries. I'm looking for how they're fighting, the lighting, the sounds, and the environments.

      Then Korra and ATLA are the right places for you anyway. The fact that fight scenes are very short is the difference between a good Kung Fu move and LoK.

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    • when i watch the fighting sequences in avatar, as a martial artist myself, i always closely watch the fighter and his technique, and if s/he's a bender, how a particular move corresponds to the reaction of the element.

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    • See, as a sixteen-year-old girl who is rail thin, can be knocked over easily, and whose hands are incapable of making a fist: I don't care. I'm in it for the storyline. XD If the storyline was more complex, I'd be more into it. A show that freaks out my mind is amazing. XD

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    • Steph32597s wrote:
      Kubernes wrote:
       When I watch kungfu movies, I'm not looking for blood/broken bones/extreme injuries. I'm looking for how they're fighting, the lighting, the sounds, and the environments.
      Then Korra and ATLA are the right places for you anyway. The fact that fight scenes are very short is the difference between a good Kung Fu move and LoK.

      Fight scenes don't need to be long if they are impactful. I saw Sanjuro again recently and all of the fights are very short. This is even when the main character goes through a dozen or so people. In addition, only the last duel has a sort of graphical violence of blood spraying.

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    • the Anime Samurai 7 is a good example of using violence respectfully.

      Most of the time the samurai are fighting robots or cyborgs, so like samurai jack they usually bleed oil or electricity. Blood was used in the show however only when it was an emotionally relevant death and not in an action scene. 

      In a huge battle with hundreds of robot mooks, there is little to no blood. When main character kills a flesh and blood human being for the first time, there is a realistic amount of the stuff.

      The amount of blood shown should be proportionate to the emotional impact each death has.

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    • Personally, I wouldn't really be too interested in a more "mature" ATLA/LOK series. When I had first seen the previews for ATLA, I won't lie, I scoffed at it. I thought, "oh great, a wannabe anime series". My siblings had the TV on one day, and the episode that aired was "The Southern Air Temple". I was just eating lunch so I figured, "meh, i'll just watch this crap". I never anticipated becoming so emotionally attached to this series. As I continued to watch, what really overwhelmed me were the overall themes and morality of the series. This is the only series I can think of at the top of my head that really got children thinking about their spiritual selves, morals, integrity, empathy... I loved that the characters, for being so young, were so FLAWED. I can go on and on, about this more in depth... I love that each character is relatable somehow, some more than others, and I love that Aang is always looking for an alternate way to bring peace and balance without having to resort to bloodshed and hostility.

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    • L33N4TRON wrote:
      I love that Aang is always looking for an alternate way to bring peace and balance without having to resort to bloodshed and hostility.

      I like that, too. Aang is one weird twelve-year-old, for sure.

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    • @steph

      i'm pretty small for a college guy myself...but the bending is totally the best thing about avatar :P

      ooh and don't forget the past lives!

      oh wait...

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:

      .but the bending is totally the best thing about avatar :P

      ooh and don't forget the past lives!

      oh wait...

      HahahahahahahaHAAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAH<---My mind. I'm on the struggle bus, I believe. XD And I'm black, so don't hate. :P

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    • what's that have to do with anything?

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    • Struggle bus.

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    • ??

      i don't see the connection.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      ??

      i don't see the connection.


      Okay. Then maybe no one else did. ^-^

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    • RaidenRadio wrote:
      the Anime Samurai 7 is a good example of using violence respectfully.

      Most of the time the samurai are fighting robots or cyborgs, so like samurai jack they usually bleed oil or electricity. Blood was used in the show however only when it was an emotionally relevant death and not in an action scene. 

      In a huge battle with hundreds of robot mooks, there is little to no blood. When main character kills a flesh and blood human being for the first time, there is a realistic amount of the stuff.

      The amount of blood shown should be proportionate to the emotional impact each death has.

      The original movie is the one to watch. I always thought the anime series should have chosen a single genre rather than have an odd mixture of several others. Samurai Jack is a good subsitute.

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    • I kind of like it the way it is. One of the greatest things about Avatar is the zeal with which they parade thier themes. A theme like "darkness always yields to unbending light" would never have made it on to a darker and grittier series. With the focus towards an older audience, there's always the temptation to be subversive. I love shows like Breaking Bad and anime like Evangelion but their darkness and edginess only worked because of the themes that thier stories were representing. Breaking Bad was a tale about the monster that lurks inside of us. Walter White was an awesome character because he was all the parts of us and all the parts of evil that we find attratctive. We feel the allure and understand his decisions and wonder if we, under the right circumstances would do the same. Eva is a tale of isoltion, everything about it screams of the horrors we inflict on others and the horrors we infict on ourselves as we each out to others and then recoil to aviod them. There's a lot of depression and frustration and disappointment because that's what its like to feel abandoned. These things worked for these shows but they wouldn't work for Avatar. Avatar is good where it is, thoroughly black and white, rich in philosophy, but ultimately hopeful that there are good people, and that although life is confusing or painful, although we all struggle with our own demons and each face trials and tribulations, darkjness will bend to unyielding light. That's not a message that you often get in more adult programing. It's cheesy. It's been done to death. But its also the thing that makes avatar great. It doesn't shy away from the hard stuff, but it interplays it with hope and beauty. I don't want that to go away. Sure, knowing more about the politics, and the backstabbing and the nitty gritty details would be cool but that should never be the focus of the series. That series wouldn't be the Avatar that we know.

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    • I still would think that charachter deaths are a concept that can be exploited in cartoons. Just ook at what a huge impact it was when Brian from family guy dies!

      Anyway, If you could decide who dies on Books 1 and 2 who would it be? From Book one to Book two. How would the fans react if Mak or Bolin, Tenzin Asami or whatever would die?

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    • "The amount of blood shown should be proportionate to the emotional impact each death has."

      Aerith dies, suddenly ocean of blood!







      Even though, in the actual game, there wasn't any at all.

      Spoiler alert, 1997.

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    • Blood in ye olde cg scenes was never very good looking. The scene itself was perfectly fine without blood, exposed organs, etc. 

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    • I just wanted to crack a joke about that line, & could only think of 2 widely known emotional death scenes: Aerith & Hughes. Since Aerith's has been making basement dwellers admit that they cried for over a decade & literally had NO blood, it struck me as the funniest. And I have now killed the joke by explaining it.

      The scene was stripped of blood to avoid the risk of getting an M rating, which was especially high because VI-->VII was the jump from sprites to 3D models, & they were already pushing some unusually mature themes, like brothels. I've seen some artwork of the scene with blood, & I do think that the realism improves upon it, but if one is the kind of person who considers the scene "ruined" if it is not perfectly gratuitous, then that person missed the whole point of it anyway.

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    • No General Leo?

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    • General Leo's death is not even that famous, & if you want my opinion, Final Fantasy VI's writing was nothing short of atrocious. Leo wasn't even really a character, he was obviously a sacrificial lamb to show us how completely evil Kefka was. I wouldn't necessarily predict that he would die--one of the few things that there's even a chance I wouldn't predict in that plotline--but I definitely would have predicted that SOMETHING bad would happen to him at Kefka's hand.

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    • I thought the Doma scene did a better job of portraying the evilness.

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    • That was just another example of its super predictable writing. Firstly, the soldier literally telling us in Expositionspeak that Kefka is pure evil & Leo is pure good, & then, "Hey Leo, the Emperor has a message for you!" & it is obviously a trick so HOW ARE YOU A GENERAL IF YOU ARE THIS GULLIBLE!?

      And then people like to blame console limitations, but the fact is that the FF series pulled way better twists back when it was 8-Bit. Though the World of Ruin is a decent plot twist, the rest is just...inexcusable.

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    • Pyrusmole wrote:
      I love shows like Breaking Bad and anime like Evangelion but their darkness and edginess only worked because of the themes that thier stories were representing. Breaking Bad was a tale about the monster that lurks inside of us. Walter White was an awesome character because he was all the parts of us and all the parts of evil that we find attratctive. We feel the allure and understand his decisions and wonder if we, under the right circumstances would do the same. Eva is a tale of isoltion, everything about it screams of the horrors we inflict on others and the horrors we infict on ourselves as we each out to others and then recoil to aviod them. There's a lot of depression and frustration and disappointment because that's what its like to feel abandoned. These things worked for these shows but they wouldn't work for Avatar. 

      Well that's true. Avatar usually tries to stick to a philosophy/grand narrative where "good always wins, triumphs over evil" and so on, so they wouldn't go so far as Eva- for example. 

      Well, if only Zuko was the main character, I can see some parallels with Shinji going on LOL. 

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    • Yes, to get back on track, you can somewhat change the theme without changing the world entirely.

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    • I actually think LOK became more childish than ATLA, despite it's efforts to do otherwise.

      anyway and more mature series would be cool. and things don't have to be dark to be mature. the show would have darker elements but, that doesn't mean the ultimate message or whatever would have to be darker.

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    • what bothered me about some of the battle scenes wasn't really lack of violence or anything. but the seemingly one-sidedness. no matter how they show casualties, it always seemed to be one sided in the battle scenes. its cooler when you see casualties on both sides.

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    • how is lok more childish than atla??

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    • TheAvatarNate wrote:
      what bothered me about some of the battle scenes wasn't really lack of violence or anything. but the seemingly one-sidedness. no matter how they show casualties, it always seemed to be one sided in the battle scenes. its cooler when you see casualties on both sides.

      I agree. Korra's fight with Unlaq in Civil Wars Part Two kinda sucked. 

      Mako got hit with a little bit of water and fell backward, like, forty feet (which doesn't make sense with his Pro-Bending Training). And Korra blew some air at him and pushed Unalaq backward. He didn't stand a chance.

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    • I would note the character of Varrick. He is basically a criminal warmonger who doesn't really suffer consequences in the end. Highly unlikely that a character that gray would appear in the original continuity.

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    • on principle, i could see varrick in atla (excluding his high tech stuff of course). the only problem is that his character would probably be for the fire nation, because that's where he'd profit the most from the war....but i'm sure they're ways around that. stick him in bss or something.

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    • Steph32597s wrote:

      TheAvatarNate wrote:
      what bothered me about some of the battle scenes wasn't really lack of violence or anything. but the seemingly one-sidedness. no matter how they show casualties, it always seemed to be one sided in the battle scenes. its cooler when you see casualties on both sides.

      I agree. Korra's fight with Unlaq in Civil Wars Part Two kinda sucked. 

      Mako got hit with a little bit of water and fell backward, like, forty feet (which doesn't make sense with his Pro-Bending Training). And Korra blew some air at him and pushed Unalaq backward. He didn't stand a chance.

      Well, even in the original series during the large battles the casualties shown seemed to be onesided. Like the day of black sun, or siege of the north. or even haru and them vs the firebenders.

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    • Something about the majority of the humor seems less mature. The characters themselves ironically seem less mature. The new abilities and spirits seem more childish. the relationships and character development is simpler.

      of course there is some more mature things, like murder suicide but, overall it seems less mature.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      on principle, i could see varrick in atla (excluding his high tech stuff of course). the only problem is that his character would probably be for the fire nation, because that's where he'd profit the most from the war....but i'm sure they're ways around that. stick him in bss or something.

      He takes the place of the Mechanist.

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    • TheAvatarNate wrote:

      of course there is some more mature things, like murder suicide but, overall it seems less mature.

      Honestly, I think that incident blew right over kids' heads. I hadn't even realized that the explosion was Tarrlok and Noatok until the beginning of season two. XD  But I din't watch the finale very closely.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      on principle, i could see varrick in atla (excluding his high tech stuff of course). the only problem is that his character would probably be for the fire nation, because that's where he'd profit the most from the war....but i'm sure they're ways around that. stick him in bss or something.

      Have him on the fire nation side while still a water tribe character. Perhaps a group of NWT or SWT just sided with the fire nation to survive? Or something like what happened in the colonies.

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    • He would still be a villain. Varrick is presented both as a villain (framing Mako) & hero (giving them the warship) without any "change of heart." He is just an unethical man who does both good & bad things. I can think of no character like that in the original series.

      I'm not sure how we're defining "casualties." Since there were no onscreen deaths, theoretically, the Invasion could be said to have suffered nearly 100% losses compared to the Fire Nation, if we consider being captured to be a loss.

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    • he wasn't a villain; he was allied with the antagonists, but he had some selfish motives for doing so. the only bad thing he did was try to kidnap the president (and some necessary accompanying actions, like framing mako) to accomplish what the heroes originally intended on doing: get the urn to help the south in the war. ultimately he was against unalaq, making him on the side of the heroes. question: would he be considered an anti-hero? what's the difference between an anti-hero and a...shoot i can't think of the word. but it's like an anti-hero but not an anti-hero. anyone? sorry...

      steph said that he (varrick) would replace the mechanist, and that's what i was thinking as well. only difference is that he would be a lot funnier, and more interested in business profits (the mechanist was helping the fire nation) than fighting off the fire nation (the mechanist was remorseful for what he was doing, and decided to help the avatar in the end.) only thing is that the mechanist wasn't getting any money for what he was doing for the FN, whereas varrick would probably only work for money, instead of a place to live.

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    • For a long time, I thought Future Industries were the mechanists of LoK. But thenHiroshi was like, "Oh heck no."

      That's why I was glad they but Varrick in. ^^'

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    • "he wasn't a villain; he was allied with the antagonists, but he had some selfish motives for doing so."

      He was using the protagonists, which is a villain thing. His goal was actually opposite of theirs, because they wanted to end the war, while he wanted to drag it out.

      "ultimately he was against unalaq, making him on the side of the heroes."

      The situation is more like the early part of Naruto Shippuuden: Orochimaru & the Akatsuki were both villains, but they were also enemies. As such, Orochimaru both aided & plotted against the Leaf Village, as the situation called.

      "question: would he be considered an anti-hero? what's the difference between an anti-hero and a...shoot i can't think of the word. but it's like an anti-hero but not an anti-hero. anyone? sorry..."

      A villain?

      "(the mechanist was helping the fire nation)"

      This is one reason why Varrick would not work in the original series: The war was such a bitter affair that nobody would tolerate Varrick playing both sides. Also, I believe it would have just been too gray of a plotline, of course that is unproven.

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    • Well, Verick could probably deceive and play both sides. there are plenty of people who could do that in the Avatar franchise, but naturally in order for that happen, Varick would be the villain. 

      About the "nobody would tolerate" I don't think that's true as long as he can manage to keep his identity secret, or act through intermediates. There were several instances in history where a nation/side/faction supplied both sides in the war and this usually doesn't resultes in something bad for the ones selling... >_< 

      Naturally that would be something too "gray" to deal with, specially with a franchise that tried their BEST to position the FN as evil, and everyone else as "good". (because most of the shows usually needs to have someone to win and someone to be defeated, and build the plot around conventional notions of good and evil)...

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    • As people have mentioned, the fighting would probably be more realistic, even if just for the reason that they can show a person dying or bleeding. 

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    • It depends on the context of the war. In this case, we have a world war thing that's been going on for a hundred years. People would be pretty entrenched on 1 side or the other, & the Fire Nation did not seem particularly willing to cooperate with neutral parties.

      Or, in other words, it's a fairly standard Evil Empire vs. Rebel Forces story.

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    • Wars of that length have long periods of "peace" where there's no military campaign going on. It would have been nice to see more of the colonies in the show but we only got the views mainly in 'The Promice' and the two groups of people seemed ok together.

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    • The closest we will likely ever get to a more mature ATLA would be, Moribito.

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    • but moribito doesn't appear to have any elemental manipulation...(never heard of it, just wikipedia-ed it). also, apologizes in advance, there shouldn't have been a comma after the word "be". really sorry....it was bugging me.

      if you want more mature, and still like elemental manipulation, i'd check out bionicle. it was still geared towards kids originally (and kinda stayed at the same maturity level throughout) but it wasn't a tv show so it wasn't limited by any y7 restrictions.

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    • Elemental manipulation is quite common. I'm not sure what really qualifies as "like Avatar."

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    • The whole four elements thing is quite common indeed. 

      Does it have to be a series that features strictly elemental manipulation? Just look for any mature series that features a group with different powers than another. That, or one that features a class based society.

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    • I don't know, I think that's too vague.

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    • If youd like to see a more mature ATLA or LOK I think you will like the following Movies and TV Shows.

      Wakfu:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2JrWJfdoqk

      I was introduced to this series by a fellow Avatar Wikian who's name currently escapes me. Whoever you are, thank you.

      What is Wakfu?

      If I must describe it. Think of a bizarre Mash-up of Dragonball, Final Fantasy VII, World Of Warcraft, ATLA, and Shrek.

      What could have been just a cheap cash in on a popular MMO is actually a really engaging really enjoyable kids adventure TV show. While still very childish and humorous in tone, it also has a lot of things in it that adults can also appreciate. While the majority of the main cast is pretty two-dimensional, they play off each other so well, and the viewer is so enthralled and engaged by the humor and their interactions you don't really care all that much.

      Another similarity it bears with ATLA is making it's main villain compelling and sympathetic, while never condoning his actions. Nox is as much tragic as he is scummy. One second you want to give him a hug, the next you want to punch him in the face.

      Parental warning however: Y'know how I mentioned, Shrek? How some of the humor in those movies can sometimes be a bit inappropriate for younger viewers? Double Entendres and in-jokes only adults would get are present throughout the entire TV show. Considering it was produced by a European animation company its not entirely suprising.

      While it never got an english dub, there is a kickstarter to give it one. The entire series is free to watch on Crunchyroll.

      http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1836563008/wakfu-the-animated-series

      Nadia: Secret Of The Blue Water:

      An oldie but a goodie.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU3GlUZJSL0

      Believe it or not, there was a time Hideaki Anno directed something other than Evangelion. Even more suprising, that it was a childrens Television show based on 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea. Brian and Mike cite it as a big inspiration on the tone of ATLA, and I can see why.

      Most of what you liked about ATLA and LOK can be found here. It has high adventure and suspense, Steampunk Machines, intrigue and mystery, lots of comedic relief, a strong female lead, interesting characters who develop as the story progresses, its a really good series.

      Yeah, just a parental warning. Despite it being mostly kid friendly. It also takes place in the late 1800's-early 1900's, and as such, some of the plot points do address social issues present in that era. Particularly the issue of racism, colonialism, and religious extremism. So be prepared.

      MORIBITO:

      One of my personal favorites. It's from the same studio who produced Ghost In The Shell. I was personally attracted to this show because its fantasy world is so similar to ATLA. It's based upon Medieval Japan, China, Vietnam, Has a spirit world filled with monsters and gods, and a very charming mother/son relationship between the two leads. If the characters used bending instead of spears and swords, this could've very well been an ATLA spinoff series.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdkW7nHD5wU

      It was based upon a trilogy of Japanese childrens novels. So it is mostly kid-friendly.

      But like Nadia, it does have some plot points that may fly over a younger viewers head (culture specific discussions) and some questionable content (some plot points feature both polygamy and human trafficking), but nothing is condoned or portrayed inappropriately. The action scenes are also well animated and usually bloodless (with one or two significant exceptions). But in this series the majority of the pain and violence is felt, not seen. Characters deal with the loss of loved ones, there is a lot of political intrigue, espionage, and spiritual themes. Characters risk their lives and reputations for the sake of either telling the truth or maintaining a deception. It's a really interesting fantasy series, that I really wish it was more popular than it is.

      Samurai 7:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3NzclIz_fk

      Much like LOK this is a steampunk techno-fantasy world. It blends European and Asian aesthetics together to give us a unique retelling of the greatest Samurai Film ever made.

      However unlike ATLA and my previous examples, this isn't necessarily meant to have the viewer think about his place in the universe, teach a moral, or be a commentary on anything. It's pure PG-13 escapism, and thats completely okay. Not every fantasy Tv Show has to be deep, or have characters with dark tragic backstories. Sometimes just having a group of good guys fighting a group of cartoonishly evil bad guys is entertainment enough. If its done well, and Seven Samurai does its job admirably.

      Metropolis (PG-13):

      Not so much a Remake as a reimagining of Fritz Lang's classic Silent Sci-Fi Film. Think the First season of Legend Of Korra, but in a Sci-Fi setting instead of a Techno-Fantasy setting. Instead of Benders and Non-Benders we have Robots and Humans fighting each other over economic displacement.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcnoq-1KVv4


      The animation in this movie is disney-level good, the story has a lot going for it, and the world they build has a very interesting design. Think Snow White meets Blade Runner. The only downside is the characters aren't that fleshed out, some plotpoints are brought up but never really fleshed out, and it raises a lot of questions but doesn't give many answers.

      Wonderful Days:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujfi7AkCc_Q

      From that name you'd expect this film to be a Miyazaki-like childrens film right? Wrong. The name for this film is irony incarnate.

      It's about a colony of survivors in a post apocalyptic Korea, and the social strain between a priviliged elite and their oppressed underclass. It's also a love story, about two childhood friends finding themselves on the opposite side of a great divide, spiritual, political, social and emotional.

      In this situation the remaining goverment wants humanity to survive an Earth turned into a living hell no matter the cost, even if a few have to suffer a loss of personal freedom and autonomy to do so. The resistance movement, however doesn't believe humankind deserves to survive if it means sacrificing personal freedom, so they resort to Anarchist methods in an attempt to bring down the Government. Think Last Of Us, only with Global Warming instead of Fungus-zombies.

      It also has a ridiculous chase scene between a hang glider and a fighter jet that is equal parts, Epic, and unintentionally hilarious.

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    • Recreating the original show in a more mature format would take away some of its charm, but I'd absolutely love to see a miniseries about the Adult Gaang's lives in/around Republic City (and the rise of Yakone) hosted on, say HBO or AMC. I also wouldn't mind if Legend of Korra switched channels. You can tell they've been forced to hold back (white parachute!), especially regarding some of the themes LoK has been trying to tackle.

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    • Is it too much to ask for a better live action movie????

      -breathes heavily-

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    • yeah actually, i think it is. it's great when you make a movie adaptation of a book and all: you get to see your favorite characters put on the big screen. but with avatar, all the characters are already on screen. making a motion picture out of a motion picture usually doesn't end well.

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    • "Believe it or not, there was a time Hideaki Anno directed something other than Evangelion."

      So this was before the breakdown, then?

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    • @Neo

      yup,

      Actually it partially contributed to his breakdown, Gainax did almost all the animation on Nadia, but due to a Legal Loophole, then saw little if any money for their work.

      I think I'll spin my comment into a 'If you like ATLA You may like. . . " Thread. So we can discuss this further.

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    • Which also explains Gainax going bankrupt!

      Oh dear Marduk, I am a terrible person for finding amusement in this.

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    • Here it is. . . . Dicuss what are your recommendations?

      http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:1217337

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    • An anonymous contributor
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