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  • No, I don't think so. There is a reason why there is have 4 nations. A material world and spirit world. There needs to be balance. Spirits and man are extremely different, and will butt heads. I don't see what good will come out of letting people and spirits go back and forth? Post your opinoun.

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    • i think it completely contradicts beginnings. i was disappointed with this episode overall.

      the only powers that are supposed to exist in avatar are bending, none of this spirit giant high fantasy magic.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      i think it completely contradicts beginnings. i was disappointed with this episode overall.

      the only powers that are supposed to exist in avatar are bending, none of this spirit giant high fantasy magic.

      i agree, this ep made me think the avatar universe has lost its roots really, but as for kooras decison well i think its not the onei would make since it'll be repeating history 

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    • It doesn't make any sense. what the next step, get rid of the 4 nations? I agree we don't always have to follow the precedent set before us, but really Korra it worked soo damn well.

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    • Wan closed the portals in order to a)trap Vaatu and b) stop humans and spirits from fighting. 

      But there can only be true peace if humans and spirits can learn to live together. Because Vaatu is no longer held prison in the spirit world (he is now inside of Raava, the light), I believe Korra made the right decision. This is the true path towards peace.

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    • don't fix it if it ain't broke.


      also, that goes against aang in the search as well! he was always saying to sokka how he was the great bridge guy. and not being the bridge demeans the avatar's power so much as well, and im not talking about bending. the mother of faces did what she did because the avatar asked her too. now however, the avatar has no such authority.

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    • I think Avatar Wan made the right choice in closing the portals and sealing Vaatu away centries ago. I have a feeling Korra will realize she made a mistake in leaving the portals open.

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    • BumJun wrote:
      Wan closed the portals in order to a)trap Vaatu and b) stop humans and spirits from fighting. 

      But there can only be true peace if humans and spirits can learn to live together. Because Vaatu is no longer held prison in the spirit world (he is now inside of Raava, the light), I believe Korra made the right decision. This is the true path towards peace.

      I have to disagree as humanity is not perfect as shown in the beginnings and as long as there is darkness in the world there will be dark spirits. 

      I feel Korra is being too optimistic on the relationship between spirits and people. BUT Aang did share the same feelings as Korra though about spirits and people living in harmony (I think)

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    • The avatar doesn't have to be the bridge between the worlds. The avatar needs to solely maintain peace since his spirit is bounded to the light spirit. It doesn't matter that he's no longer a bridge.

      It's a new era - Korra has decided what to do with it just like Wan did.

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    • I am happy Korra kept the portals open. I really do think that humans and spirits can coexist. LOK is a lot different than ATLA, but why is that a bad thing? They're not the same show. I'm glad that they're taking a new, risky route with this. 

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    • Intelligence4 wrote: ...the only powers that are supposed to exist in avatar are bending, none of this spirit giant high fantasy magic.

      It was clearly establish in the first series that spirits have a big impact on the Real world just look at "Winter Solstice, Part 1: The Spirit World" Hei Bai is clearly affecting a village in anger with humanity and the whole idea that the "The Great Divide" was created by spirits fighting it out in that part of the Earth Kingdom long ago also Avatar Kuruk's bride-to-be's face was stolen by Koh the Face Stealer and those are the only examples I remember look for more if you want, but spirits have been showed to affect the World and even more in this season heck this book of Korra's saga is called "Spirits"!

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    • Her decision will create the conflict that drives books 3 and 4. Watch her have to close the portals again by the end.

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    • Yeah, there's also the problem that spirits can easily kill humans. That and they almost drove them to the edge of extinction. I guess bending evens the odds? I suppose non-benders are screwed then.

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    • Kubernes wrote: Yeah, there's also the problem that spirits can easily kill humans. That and they almost drove them to the edge of extinction. I guess bending evens the odds? I suppose non-benders are screwed then.

      Well those proto-Fire Nationals from "Beginnings, Part 2" where all killed, among them Wan's friend, so maybe is not that effective against so many spirits.

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    • korra would have reimprisoned vaatu and closed the portals as planned if she hadn't been blasted by unalaq. looks like mako and bolin are at fault for this...along with eska and desna.

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    • They can also just take over humans and kill them that way. There doesn't seem to be any real defense against it.

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    • Jey8000 wrote:

      Kubernes wrote: Yeah, there's also the problem that spirits can easily kill humans. That and they almost drove them to the edge of extinction. I guess bending evens the odds? I suppose non-benders are screwed then.

      Well those proto-Fire Nationals from "Beginnings, Part 2" where all killed, among them Wan's friend, so maybe is not that effective against so many spirits.

      Yeah but those proto-fire benders literally just tossed fireballs in them and if you noticed in the Beginnings, an experienced actual bender (as Wan still was) can definitely hold up.

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    • Korra did something that no Avatar has EVER accomplished in 10,000 years.

      Aang united the four nations.

      Korra united both the Material World and the Spirit World. Humans and Spirits can now live together. The world doesn't need an Avatar to decide their destiny anymore.

      Breaking tradition. That's what The Legend of Korra is all about.

      Roku believed in keeping the four nations seperate which was clearly wrong. Isn't keeping both worlds seperated just the same?

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    • They are together....for now. I don't know if it would last. We do have two more books to ponder the choice she made.

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    • And think about it. There hasn't been any mention of other Avatars other than Wan and Aang who have dealt with Spiritual problems before.

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    • heyyy guys so i missed book 2 episode 13 would someone please be a doll and recap it for me soo i can get in on this discussionnn cause i only know half of whats going on, ok thankss

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    • Wannabewaterbender wrote: Yeah but those proto-fire benders literally just tossed fireballs in them and if you noticed in the Beginnings, an experienced actual bender (as Wan still was) can definitely hold up.

      Well then the experience benders are going to be the last to die, since if Raava dies so those the rest of the world and yes Raava well eventually came back but not to a world that can be saved.

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    • Or the spirits can just corrupt the environment and people again. It didn't seem difficult for them to do it.

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    • Hypejam wrote:
      heyyy guys so i missed book 2 episode 13 would someone please be a doll and recap it for me soo i can get in on this discussionnn cause i only know half of whats going on, ok thankss


      still up on nick

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    • I'm thinking its gonna bite her where the sun don't shine at some point. For one, some spirits just should not be allowed to wander free, like Koh or that scorpion-spirit. Second, spirits tend to be rather attached to nature; what's their reaction going to be when they see something like Republic City? Considering the power the spirits wield, humans probably won't fare so well, even with technology on their side.

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    • She made the right desision.Now humans and spirits can get along,learn each other's ways(xD)etc

      This is a stupid question but,now that the pertals are opened and people can go to the Spirit World easily,do you think that they could make cities in the Spirit World? xD

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    • Knowing the kinds of spirits that call that place home, I doubt it. Plus, I'm fairly sure the spirits wouldn't appreciate humans coming in an defiling their home with their modern conveniances and negative emotions.

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    • i think she redem wang making an end at the avatar cicle started with him: wang separate two thing that was together from the start raava and vaatu  and close the spirit portal that was open before now korra resolve all that mistake reopn the portal like it was before and have inside her both raava and vaatu...

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    • But the spirits and humans were in peace when the portals were seperate, only conflict is every 10,000 years around the harmonic convergance. Naturally dark spirits come in start fighting humans now.

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    • I don't think "at peace" is the right word. They just didn't come in contact that often, and thus had few chances for conflict. Now that spirits are pouring into the waking world, many of the horrors we've seen inhabiting the Spirit World can now come with them.

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    • The effects remain to be seen, but I think it'll go fine

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    • I hear alot of people saying that Korra merging the spirit and human world is wrong and the nations, spirit world, and human world are suppoused to be divided. Well hear's my response to that; Korra is  a new world, the old rules are gone and this world is going to be different. Aang's world and all the previous Avatar's don't define this world anymore, and now both the spirit and human realms along with Korra don't have to be defined by what happened before. Their free to be completely new and go their own way. Stop harping on how different Legend of Korra is to the original because it's suppoused to be different from Avatar The Last Airbender.

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    • I think it was the right decision.

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    • I was not expecting that at all, to tell you the truth. If Korra feels that leaving the spirit portals open is the right thing to do, then I'm fine with that.

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    • I think it was. Just because they can enter each others worlds doesn't mean they will. Humans are afraid of spirits and spirits have no reason to attack the humans.

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    • I think it was fairly clear from the final scene that there were plenty of spirits that came through the portal, and they seemed to find reasons to attack humans back in Wan's day, usually centering around human's lack of respect for nature. Considering the industrialized world of Korra's time, that reasoning may be justified for many spirits. As the saying goes, "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it". I fear a reckoning is coming for the Avatar world.

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    • Well i'm trying to be extremely optimistic. Bring on season 3.

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    • The spirits are no longer infulenced by Vaatu. As long as humans are in line with whatever the spirits watch after, they should be fine.

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    • Koh wasn't really evil. He was just...morally ambiguous. I wouldn't mind him wandering around the physical realm, at the cost of his immortality. Remember, spirits become mortal when they go to the mortal world, like Tui and La, and Vaatu, just as humans somehow don't age when they go to the spirit world (Iroh, Zhao, and all those people in the spirit world for example, but it's still unclear to whether they can be killed, since Zei's death wasn't elaborated on.

      I think if Korra goes on to teach energybending, spirits won't be much of a threat.

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    • They don't need Vaatu to be violent; we saw that they were perfectly able to attack humans without being corrupted.

      Humans by their very nature mess with the environment. We cut down trees, dam rivers, tear up the soil, and so forth, especially in the modern day. If the spirits who are still around are anything like those in Wan's time, they won't be happy with what the Avatar world has become in the last 70 years. Plus, if spirits are suddenly guarding all the natural resources of the world, people are going to start resenting them rather quickly.

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    • Oh lord. This isn't gonna lead to a "save the environment" message season is it? Don't we have enough of those already.

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    • either way this will make a great conflict for next season

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    • @ Empress

      If they do go down a more environmental angle, I doubt it'll go full Captain Planet. Hopefully it'll take a more modern spin on natural resources, where instead of nature versus technology, its more finding a balance between the two. Korra will need to bone up on her diplomacy skills though. She needs more strategies than "threaten with polar bear dog"

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    • @Tanc

      That would be interesting to see, since your fanfic deals largely with the issue.

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    • I honestly haven't seen forests torn down or rivers dammed up (except for the Fire Nation).

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    • If Korra's time is anything like the period of American history its trying to evoke, there most certainly are torn down forests and dammed up rivers. Modern cities like Republic City don't just spring out of nowhere, you know.

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    • Spirits are gonna be pissed

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    • I think she have done the right decision. Its probably gonna be hard for spirits and mankind to coexist together from now on (Koh, etc.), but then there is Korra and the new generation of Avatars coming. I believe its the right way to real peace... before when the worlds were separately (which was actually forced by Wan, not naturally), to me it still seemed like kind of ´´status quo´´ ... temporary solution.

      Well, also I like the portals open, because it brings so many ways for continuing story and because I just like changes and surprises. But I hope my first explanation is unbiased enough.

      Sorry for possible mistakes in my english.

      Cheers :)

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    • @ Heyheyheyy22 Yea, they will. Much of the land is probably going to be developed by Korra's time. Rapidly expanding populations require a lot of resources, so the wildlands are going to be very reduced, especially in the Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation, who don't have to deal with permanently frozen soils.

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    • The addition of the URN is not that big of a change to the world. It's just one city. We can't say they destroyed forests to build it because we have no idea what the landscape looked like before it hapened.

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    • Korra did the right thing. The Avatar's methods have been completely wrong for the last 10,000 years. Time for a change.

      Wan wasn't teaching people to live together in peace, the Avatars were teaching segregation and expecting diverse groups -- Fire, water, earth, and air, man and spirit -- to alienate each other. Except for Aang, and even he had learn he was wrong the hard way.

      Amon was right that benders use their powers to abuse those who don't(it's a well known and old moral: power corrupts, and ultimate power corrupts ultimately), and even if his methods were extreme, he was forcing the world to embrace equal rights and fair treatment of your fellow man. Korra was just protecting bender supremacy. Korra herself even believes that her bending and avatar status defines her more as a person than her character does(evidenced by her contemplation of suicide at the south pole when she stood at the cliff rather than continuing on with just her airbending)

      So far, the Legend of Korra has made the villains: Amon, Unalaq, embodiments of good morals(equality, ending segregation) but portayed as evil a-holes, while the embodiment of segregation and inequality is the ultimate good guy.

      Right now, Korra's taking a step in the right direction.

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    • Im more interested  in seeing  humans in the spirit world. 

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    • @ Avatarlonathan


      Republic CIty is not the URN in its entirety: The whole nation is a good chunk of the Earth Kingdom's western coastline.

      I was thinking more they would need wood for contruction, and one needs to fell trees to get said wood. Whether it would have been gathered from the immediate area or elsewhere, forests would need to be pushed back to feed an expanding city. Plus, the URN is not the only industrialized nation: the rest seem to have been industrialized as well, meaning the same thing is happening all across the world.

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    • Not to mention how are the other nations gonna feel about having spirits around?

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    • Most of the things in the URN to me look to be made of metal not wood. Republic City to me looked like just one city but we don't know for sure because we haven't seen a map of the world after the founding of the URN.

      As I have said a thousand times, we don't know what the EK and FN look like after Aang's time. To me, the NWT looked about the same as it did in Aang's time just slightly bigger. The SWT....hard to say. We never really saw a fully-built SWT. To me it looked like the tchnology was used moderatly and not adapted as a large part of their culture.

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    • Even in the city, there is plenty that gets the wood treatment. From furniture to doors to walls to telephone poles, there is plenty that need wood in the city. Plus you get into the rural areas, and wood usage shoots way up. Add in agricultural needs, and the forests shrink like a snail in the sun.

      It has been said before that the URN was made from the former Fire Nation colonies, plural. There's most definitely more to the URN than Republic City.

      We don't know, but we can really strongly infer. The Fire Nation was already in the middle of an industrial revolution, and I doubt they just stopped. The Earth Kingdom has the Mechanist and a boatload of raw materials along with the URN next door, they're a shoe in. With those two pretty much garunteed for industrialization, their populations are going to go through the roof, meaning more developed land.

      It actually makes sense that the Water Tribes wouldn't look as advanced, as they started from pre-Stone Age and seem to lack the raw resources needed for full-stop Industrial Revolution. The Fire Nation and Earth Kingdom, on the other hand, are prime candidates. It makes much more sense than them just freezing in time when even the Water Tribes have harnessed some advanced technology.

      Also, side note, you may wish to use a different tactic than "I don't see it, therefore it isn't there". Its a much larger stretch to assume the Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation abandoned their industrial revolutions than it is to assume they advanced with the rest of the world at this point.

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    • @tanc  yep, Republic City is the capital of the URN.  In the credits of the first episode we see lots of open land near Republic City

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    • Vgiannell5 wrote:
      I think Avatar Wan made the right choice in closing the portals and sealing Vaatu away centries ago. I have a feeling Korra will realize she made a mistake in leaving the portals open.


      This, kinda. I mean, out of ALL people in the Avatarverse, I'd say Korra is THE LAST person to actually know something about spirits and the spirit world.

      There was NO questioning throughout the episodes about this; they just suddenly drop "oh, she's gonna leave the portals open".

      ... What? Why?

      You never saw her question Wan about him sealing the portals. (In fact, Korra NEVER TALKED with her past lives directly; her talk with Aang was in the ending and he basically went "Deus ex Machina! You suddenly have your powers back! And you can energybend, so you'll be able to give powers to whoever you want! Why? Who cares!")

      The only time she's been to the spirit world, she made a lot of enemies in there. She didn't get to talk to them, learn with them, and the like.

      Unalaq says stuff about becoming the next Avatar, and opening the portals and there's no exchange between she and him about portals and the spirit world. So why would she follow this idea? What's to benefit?


      I get that the character is flawed, and these flaws are what makes her so interesting, but ... I don't know. Seems like that decision was more to shock the audience (read, us). Kinda like "oh, you were expecting she'd do that huh? Guess what, NOPE! :P"

      But it will be interesting to see how this develops. I'm guessing we might see more people joining with spirits ... kinda like a Shaman King partnership.

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    • I'm sure the spirits will understand that the humans need these resources. What they weren't okay with was tearing it down for no reason.

      Yu Dao was the only one I saw ask for independece. Perhaps that was used as a sight for the URN and other people from other colonies just moved there. 

      The FN was in an industrial revolution in Ozai's time. It might have been stopped by Zuko since he was running on doing the opposite of what Ozai. Even if Zuko did continue on the Industrial Revolution we shouldn't complain about it since it happened in ATLA.

      Perhaps the Mechanist saw a business oppritunity and moved to the URN. Even, thought the're neighbors with the URN doesn't mean they will pick up on it. They already have a well-developed mail carrying system. Why not use their earthbending for other things. 

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    • Personally I think that not being the bridge between the spirit world and the human world is a good thing. Spirits should be able to roam free in the mortal world and humans should be able to go into the spirit world. I also think having the Avatar cycle start over is a good thing.  

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    • AvatarIonathan wrote: I honestly haven't seen forests torn down or rivers dammed up (except for the Fire Nation).

      Industrialization by its very nature loves to overindulge on resources and the Fire Nation and the United Republic of Nations both are industrial powers at this point in time on the history of the Avatar World just like the UK and the USA where during the 19th and 20th centuries so I think that spirits that are truly of nature are going to have a problem with humanities global resource use.

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    • AvatarIonathan wrote: The addition of the URN is not that big of a change to the world. It's just one city. We can't say they destroyed forests to build it because we have no idea what the landscape looked like before it hapened.

      Dude they are a whole country; I think the URN is nearly the whole western coast of the "Earth Continent" which was heavily colonized by the FN starting from late into Roku's time as the Avatar, think the 13 colonies of British America but on the west coast, all we have seen of it is just Republic City and its surrounding area there is a lot more that we may get to see during the next book or in the comics.

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    • I'm looking forward to seeing how the living together in peace thing works. Like are we going to see spirits everywhere now? Wouldn't that be really weird? 

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    • I'm guessing an anti-spirit crusade will pop up in the next book or two.

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    • And also is not all about the trees is also the ecosystems of this world that are also under the treat of industrialization directly or indirectly as we are seeing on our on world. We live in the so called "Spaceship Earth" everything that can be used so far comes from this planet and only this planet same with the Avatar World unless they somehow colonize the Spirit realm or peacefully (I dough it) gain those resources. And now that the portals are open doesn't that mean that their is no longer a need for spiritual guides? Since now anyone can go to the Spirit World.

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    • There's enough evil spirits that you should get somekind of guide. The owl is still around too.

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    • Anyways with her decision to keep the portals open I'm not for or against but I'm not neutral about it, if this makes sense good for you. But I feel that she should have kept the Status quo ante bellum but at the same time was Wan right or wrong that spirits and humans are to different and well always fight each other? But I also think that humans have such a hard time to be nice to each other that adding other beings that haven't been in everyday view for a myriad years could lead to even more aggression towards each other (Bumi & Jinora are not the standard for this situation)

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    • It all depends on what they do with it.

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    • GAH I missed it didn't I? IM GONNA GO CHECK ON DEMAND NOW!

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      i think it completely contradicts beginnings. i was disappointed with this episode overall.

      the only powers that are supposed to exist in avatar are bending, none of this spirit giant high fantasy magic.


      Now that I think about it, that's pretty true. Honestly, this whole spirit thing and energybending are just completley messes to the plot -_- Don't you think so?

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    • I thought this was weird. In ATLA when Aang see's that long windy road and the giant him, it's the Avatar spirit he's seeing, and when he's hit by Azula the giant him collapses. When Korra did that it's just her pure spirit. Did I miss something here?

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    • @Empressofmelnibone No, you did not seem to miss something -_- As much as I love TLOK, the creators are going ham with the plot armor and missing important points -_-

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    • Oh i would love your opinion of my moon firebenders on new nations 2 if you don't mind.

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    • Right or Wrong here are definitely going to be a few issues.

      I doubt many spirits are going to appreciate Republic City, the Industrial Revolution etc. the same goes for humans who might be afraid of Spirits forcing them to give up their way of life for the sake of tradition or reconnecting with nature.

      Likely going to trigger a TON of Anti-Spirit sentiment if Introducing spirits messes up the Economy, displaces workers, etc. What if. . . i dunno, a spirit of Luck always won at gambling and cleaned out the casino? Or a spirit of Nature does all the work for a farmer that would have employed dozens of people and/or benders? Or Spirits start possesing people and deforming them horribly?

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    • Here's how I see it, Vaatu said that he was the first spirit to break through the divide between the worlds (so the portals were originally closed), what followed was 10,000 years where the two worlds were combined, then Wan closed the portals again leading to 10,000 years where they were separate, now Korra has opened them again.

      There is a clear cycle present: Now: portals opened; 10,000 years ago: portals closed; 20,000 years ago: portals opened. I bet you can go even farther back and it would continue this way and if you go 10,000 years forward I bet the portals will be closed again for whatever reason. Therefore Korra's decision was in correspondence with the Grand Scheme of the Universe.

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    • 152nd Earth King wrote:
      Here's how I see it, Vaatu said that he was the first spirit to break through the divide between the worlds (so the portals were originally closed), what followed was 10,000 years where the two worlds were combined, then Wan closed the portals again leading to 10,000 years where they were separate, now Korra has opened them again.

      There is a clear cycle present: Now: portals opened; 10,000 years ago: portals closed; 20,000 years ago: portals opened. I bet you can go even farther back and it would continue this way and if you go 10,000 years forward I bet the portals will be closed again for whatever reason. Therefore Korra's decision was in correspondence with the Grand Scheme of the Universe.


      Will the Circle Be Unbroken?

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    • In a world of shades of grey, sometimes there is no right or wrong decision, only choices. The world is different than Wan's time. Vaatu is currently no longer a threat and humanity is working towards peace. In Wan's time, for many, it was spirits vs humans. But today they can learn to move past it and live together in peace.

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    • Unic of the borg wrote:
      In a world of shades of grey, sometimes there is no right or wrong decision, only choices. The world is different than Wan's time. Vaatu is currently no longer a threat and humanity is working towards peace. In Wan's time, for many, it was spirits vs humans. But today they can learn to move past it and live together in peace.

      Yes, but what is the point. Both sides were completely satistfied with living in their own world. There was no conflict, and there is nothing to be gained by living aside one another

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    • The real issue with spirits isn't when they see what has happened to the enviroment in the physical world. It'll be when humans start settling in the spirit world. That's what humans do. We explore, we settle, we expand.

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    • There's no current experience with the majority of humans living with spirits. I can't see anything but conflict in the future.

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    • Perhaps the humans will try to kidnap some of the spirits and use them as household pets.

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    • It's not like the material world was perfect with the portals closed either.

      It's time for something new anyway... nearly everyone always wants the story to go their way.

      I think it was the right thing to do.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      don't fix it if it ain't broke.


      also, that goes against aang in the search as well! he was always saying to sokka how he was the great bridge guy. and not being the bridge demeans the avatar's power so much as well, and im not talking about bending. the mother of faces did what she did because the avatar asked her too. now however, the avatar has no such authority.


      the avatar still remains the bridge as all he did was allow the spirits to roam the non spiritual world and opposite for the humans but the avatar remains the bride do to the part he remains the only being to be on both sides of the vale at the same time as he can choose to be on the spirit or the non spirit world as if the portals where closed and he lived in the spirit realm he could send his self to the other side all she did was allow everyone the choice of going between the spirit and non spirit world

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    • Maybe the problem is that these Avatars see themselves as the bridges between those two worlds. I just see the Avatar as someone who tries to bring their own sense of balance to the world. Basically what they say in the intro (the balance thing).

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    • The Winter Solstice Part I

      Rewatch it and we can see the negative results of spirits and humanity.

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    • Spirits could always enter the material world even though the portals were closed. Look at hai bai and furryfoot, plus closing the portals didn't really make the Avatar a bridge... cause the humans forgot about spirits, now that the portals are open, the avatar is a bridge as he/she provides a common understanding between humans and spirits

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    • GonthorianAce wrote:
      Spirits could always enter the material world even though the portals were closed. Look at hai bai and furryfoot, plus closing the portals didn't really make the Avatar a bridge... cause the humans forgot about spirits, now that the portals are open, the avatar is a bridge as he/she provides a common understanding between humans and spirits

      No the moon, ocean, heybai ect. have a job to do in the material world thats why they are their. The moon  and heybai can't do their jobs from the spirit world

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    • Basically the natural progression of things. After the Hundred Year War, the world entered a new era of peace. Until proven otherwise, humans have not threatened to destroy the entire world since Ozai and the world has became in unified with the Republic representing all four nations. So step one was complete. Now over the course of Book 2 Korea and company have met many spirits and found they are lovely people. Thus there exist the potential of evil spirits who can do terrible things, just as there are humans who could do terrible things.

      Wan separated the two worlds because he felt the world wasn't ready to be reunited, thus starting his era of Avatars. He would spend thousands of lives trying to get people to stop fighting each other. Aang stopping Ozai for the most part stopped large scale war. Unalaq was crazy for wanting to drown the world in shadow, but he did have a point in that the worlds shouldn't have been separated like they were. The fact that an Avatar exists means that humans and spirits can live together and that is presumably be the new task for Korra's era of Avatars. Get them to a point where they can exist together happily,at least until Vaatu comes back and Korea Avatar 10,000 has to fight him all over again.

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    • Heyheyheyy22 wrote:
      GonthorianAce wrote:
      Spirits could always enter the material world even though the portals were closed. Look at hai bai and furryfoot, plus closing the portals didn't really make the Avatar a bridge... cause the humans forgot about spirits, now that the portals are open, the avatar is a bridge as he/she provides a common understanding between humans and spirits
      No the moon, ocean, heybai ect. have a job to do in the material world thats why they are their. The moon  and heybai can't do their jobs from the spirit world

      The ocean and the moon existed before tui and la decided to come to the material world

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    • True @GA, but i dont think just any spirit could go to the opposite world when the portals were shut. Perhaps Wan allowed certain Spirits to stay in the material world before he closed the portals

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    • Leaving the portals open was a TERRIBLE idea. Now random people will wander, get attacked by meerkat spirits, stumble into Wan Shi Tong's library, get lost in the fog of lost souls... BAD IDEA! Too much danger.

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    • Almost all of the powerful spirits that we have seen have been bigoted, violent, supremacist, hegemonic, and hypocritical. The spirits had their own Spirit World, but apparently, that was not enough for them. Led by Vaatu, they colonized the human world and essentially reduced the indigenous human population to living on Lion Turtle reservations. When these upstart humans had the temerity to, you know, try and find food or firewood for themselves or recuperate in an oasis, the spirit colonizers declared the forests to be their personal property and tried to kill the offending human supplicants.

      Wan was a great champion of human indigenous rights, who sent the spirits packing and put them where they belonged: the spirit world. His only mistake was that he did not kick enough of them out. Take Hei Bai, for instance. This guy was the worst. He was supposed to be the "protector" of Senlin Forest, but he apparently sucked at his job because the Fire Nation was able to raze it to the ground without so much as a single casualty. Not only did this idiot sleep on the job, but he couldn't even be bothered to find out who was responsible, randomly blaming the people of Senlin Village and kidnapping them and vandalizing their property. He doesn't seem too bright either, since it took a supposed forest-burning human like Aang (who Hei Bai, as usual, attacked without listening to) to finally tell this supposed "forest guardian" that trees regrow from acorns. He also seemed unaware that forests experience natural rejuvenating forest fires.

      Koh is another slimeball. He was apparently so angry at Kuruk's neglecting his duties as Avatar that he took the face of Kuruk's wife, and that was only one of the latest of the many faces this guy stole. Unsatisfied with this gross injustice, he tried to add Aang's to his collection. How does victimizing innocent people because he has mommy issues solve anything? How exactly does punishing the innocent for Kuruk's admitted arrogance and negligence accomplish anything? His supposed "concern" for the human realm is blatant spirit hypocrisy. Whether it is the annoying meerkats or the creepy spider thing, the spirits seem to be very hostile towards the idea of humans even setting foot in their world, let alone interfering in it. Indeed, they are willing to punish them severely for even the most trivial violations, going so far as to send them to the Fog of Lost Souls, which is essentially Spirit Azkaban. As such, they have no business at all claiming any sovereignty over human territory or having any say in human affairs.

      Yet, that is exactly what they do, and in a brazenly supremacist manner at that. Take the Mother of Faces for instance, who complains about people bending the water in "her" pool and desecrating "her" forest. What claim does she have to any of this? She also whines about Aang scolding her like a child, as though she is somehow unassailable and perfect. She gripes about people wanting to change their faces, without bothering to understand that some people do so out of necessity, like Ursa did when she feared for her safety. She makes little effort to investigate the reasons behind people wanting their faces changed, and exerts even less effort when it comes to introspection. Instead, she makes sweeping condemnations of humans, who she sees as primitive and pathetic, a bias that is apparently not uncommon among spirits.

      Wan shi Tong is another example of this. Though his concerns over humans using his library to make war are valid, he proves to be a giant hypocrite when he tries to kill Team Avatar for this offense, and later on when he tries to annihilate the world with Unalaq. Like other powerful spirits, his manner oozes with contempt towards humans, who he sees as crude, stupid, and inferior, and he is unable to distinguish between subtleties in their behavior (in this case, just and unjust wars.)

      I am aware, of course, that there are significant exceptions to this. Tui and La deserve commendation for their helping humans at great cost to themselves, as does the Painted Lady. I also know that spirits are capable of reform, as Raava did when she warmed up to Wan after dismissing him as a meddlesome, bumbling troublemaker and being repulsed at the idea of cooperating with him. But at best, this means that the human world needs comprehensive inter-dimensional immigration reform. They need to exert tight control over the spirit portals and ensure that the only spirits who get through are those willing to live peacefully with humans on equal terms. Korra's keeping the spirit portals open was, in typical Korra fashion, wildly irresponsible, short sighted, and extraordinarily dangerous to humankind.

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    • Hei Bai is a bear. Those concepts are probably beyond it.

      As for humans going into the spirit world, we should expect that kind of personal responsibility from them, as well. There are only 2 locations to get into the Spirit World, & they are not easy to get to. Just don't go into the portals without taking safety precautions.

      Spirits in the human world is a little more problematic. There's a real power imbalance there. However, that doesn't mean that they should be met with hostility & exclusion. This is not an unsolvable problem. It will be up to the Avatar & sympathetic Spirits to ensure that the more vicious elements of the Spirit World, such as Koh, do not get out of control.

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    • Hei Bai is clearly intelligent enough to understand Aang, as well as understand the idea of taking possession of a forest and guarding it. It's not a dumb animal by any stretch of the imagination, so its pointlessly violent behavior can hardly be excused that way.

      Spirits in the human world isn't a problem that needs to be solved, least of all by someone as utterly inept at understanding deep seated greivances as Korra. Wan's solution worked fairly well for ten thousand years, and showed no sign of not working. If anything, the problems arose because spirits somehow managed to get into the human world despite Wan's closing the portals, which only showed that he was right to close them. The limited means of interaction between the two worlds led to enough conflict as is.

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    • "Hei Bai is clearly intelligent enough to understand Aang, as well as understand the idea of taking possession of a forest and guarding it."

      Understand him how? He never reacts to Aang's speech in any specific capacity. Also, animals have a natural understanding of guarding territory.

      "Spirits in the human world isn't a problem that needs to be solved, least of all by someone as utterly inept at understanding deep seated greivances as Korra."

      Korra understands that segregation is not harmony. This is exactly the same conclusion that her predecessor came to.

      "If anything, the problems arose because spirits somehow managed to get into the human world despite Wan's closing the portals, which only showed that he was right to close them."

      This is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because Wan chooses to break up the Spirits & the humans, that reinforces natural distrust. "Of course the humans are bad for us," our hypothetical Spirit might say, "Why would the Avatar forbid them from coming to our world if that wasn't true?" Humans have more respect for the Spirits because Wan went around convincing them to respect the Spirits. The Spirits never had that. However, we've seen plenty of times that positive experiences with humans can change the attitudes of Spirits for the better.

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    • BumJun wrote:
      Wan closed the portals in order to a)trap Vaatu and b) stop humans and spirits from fighting. 

      But there can only be true peace if humans and spirits can learn to live together. Because Vaatu is no longer held prison in the spirit world (he is now inside of Raava, the light), I believe Korra made the right decision. This is the true path towards peace.


      I agree that Wan made the right decision, and I don't think that Korra has messed up either (although her choice is very ambitious). Both of them made a good decision BASED ON THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES. Wan needed to close the portals because, as BumJun said, Vaatu had to be sealed, and humans and spirits weren't working well together. 

      But with Vaatu's threat gone for another 10,000 years, we only have to worry about human/spirit relations. But now there's the 'new' Avatar cycle - the role has changed a bit: instead of a bridge between worlds, the Avatar now acts as a Guide, a beacon of light, to oversee how things go. The Avatar will definitely still work for light, balance, and peace. The difference is that the two groups have closer interaction, making the Avatar's duties arguably even more important.

      In Wan's time, the prejudices were already too deep for peace to exist between spirits and humans, but hopefully things will be different this time. In Wan's time, it was necessary for peace and balance for the two worlds to be separate, but perhaps it is not so in Korra's day. In Wan's time, it was Vaatu - the spirit of chaos and darkness - who made the worlds collide, but this time it's the Avatar, who is both human AND spirit, that brings them together. Moreover, the Avatar includes Raava, the spirit of peace herself. 

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    • Equalist wrote:
      Almost all of the powerful spirits that we have seen have been bigoted, violent, supremacist, hegemonic, and hypocritical. The spirits had their own Spirit World, but apparently, that was not enough for them. Led by Vaatu, they colonized the human world and essentially reduced the indigenous human population to living on Lion Turtle reservations. When these upstart humans had the temerity to, you know, try and find food or firewood for themselves or recuperate in an oasis, the spirit colonizers declared the forests to be their personal property and tried to kill the offending human supplicants.

      The key phrase here is that the spirits in Wan's day were originally, as you said, led by Vaatu. He is a corruptive and chaotic spirit by nature, so the human/spirit conflicts were due largely to his influence. 

      This time, the sprits are led into the material world by people like Jinora and the Avatar (who is both human AND spirit, and who includes Raava, the spirit of peace and balance).

      I agree with you that the spirits will certainly need instruction and guidance, and that peace between spirits and humans won't be effortless. But give them a chance, yea?

      Koh is a bit of a jerk, although it's arguable whether that's his choice or if it's just part of his being.

      Hei Bei probably had some vestigial racism against humans, but he wasn't stupid or incompetent. He couldn't stop the burning of the forest because he couldn't influence the physical world when it wasn't near enough to the Solstice (that was a major point of that episode), but as the Solstice draws nearer, he starts to make commotion. The unnatural burning of the forest was something he blamed on humanity in general, not really targeting the specific perpetrators. Moreover, it's not that he didn't know that trees grow from acorns, but rather that Aang's full intent to help the forest recover changed Hei Bei's feelings toward humans. The exact sort of thing the Avatar is meant to do.

      Lastly, I think that certain spirits have a particular connection with areas of the material world. They have may a deep personal attachement to it, or perhaps an official responsibility and duty as its guardian - Tui and La, for example, are defined and identified by what they have care over in the material world. That's the claim they have to it. That's why they can call something "my forest." In addition, some spirits clearly personify things that exist in both worlds, such as Raava and Vaatu. Perhaps Hei Bei looks after a spirit forest as well?

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    • I highly doubt she will close the portals, the thought of going backwards like that seem very very unrealistic for Avatar.

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    • Oh yeah, that was something I wanted to mention but forgot to, the portals can always be closed again, so it's not like the world is instantly going to end if they even try living together.

      Edit: I can kudos my own messages? That seems dumb.

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    • Yes!!!!!

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    • Pabu22 wrote: Yes!!!!!

      Yes!!!!!

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    • Equalist wrote:
      Almost all of the powerful spirits that we have seen have been bigoted, violent, supremacist, hegemonic, and hypocritical. The spirits had their own Spirit World, but apparently, that was not enough for them. Led by Vaatu, they colonized the human world and essentially reduced the indigenous human population to living on Lion Turtle reservations. When these upstart humans had the temerity to, you know, try and find food or firewood for themselves or recuperate in an oasis, the spirit colonizers declared the forests to be their personal property and tried to kill the offending human supplicants.

      Wan was a great champion of human indigenous rights, who sent the spirits packing and put them where they belonged: the spirit world. His only mistake was that he did not kick enough of them out. Take Hei Bai, for instance. This guy was the worst. He was supposed to be the "protector" of Senlin Forest, but he apparently sucked at his job because the Fire Nation was able to raze it to the ground without so much as a single casualty. Not only did this idiot sleep on the job, but he couldn't even be bothered to find out who was responsible, randomly blaming the people of Senlin Village and kidnapping them and vandalizing their property. He doesn't seem too bright either, since it took a supposed forest-burning human like Aang (who Hei Bai, as usual, attacked without listening to) to finally tell this supposed "forest guardian" that trees regrow from acorns. He also seemed unaware that forests experience natural rejuvenating forest fires.

      Koh is another slimeball. He was apparently so angry at Kuruk's neglecting his duties as Avatar that he took the face of Kuruk's wife, and that was only one of the latest of the many faces this guy stole. Unsatisfied with this gross injustice, he tried to add Aang's to his collection. How does victimizing innocent people because he has mommy issues solve anything? How exactly does punishing the innocent for Kuruk's admitted arrogance and negligence accomplish anything? His supposed "concern" for the human realm is blatant spirit hypocrisy. Whether it is the annoying meerkats or the creepy spider thing, the spirits seem to be very hostile towards the idea of humans even setting foot in their world, let alone interfering in it. Indeed, they are willing to punish them severely for even the most trivial violations, going so far as to send them to the Fog of Lost Souls, which is essentially Spirit Azkaban. As such, they have no business at all claiming any sovereignty over human territory or having any say in human affairs.

      Yet, that is exactly what they do, and in a brazenly supremacist manner at that. Take the Mother of Faces for instance, who complains about people bending the water in "her" pool and desecrating "her" forest. What claim does she have to any of this? She also whines about Aang scolding her like a child, as though she is somehow unassailable and perfect. She gripes about people wanting to change their faces, without bothering to understand that some people do so out of necessity, like Ursa did when she feared for her safety. She makes little effort to investigate the reasons behind people wanting their faces changed, and exerts even less effort when it comes to introspection. Instead, she makes sweeping condemnations of humans, who she sees as primitive and pathetic, a bias that is apparently not uncommon among spirits.

      Wan shi Tong is another example of this. Though his concerns over humans using his library to make war are valid, he proves to be a giant hypocrite when he tries to kill Team Avatar for this offense, and later on when he tries to annihilate the world with Unalaq. Like other powerful spirits, his manner oozes with contempt towards humans, who he sees as crude, stupid, and inferior, and he is unable to distinguish between subtleties in their behavior (in this case, just and unjust wars.)

      I am aware, of course, that there are significant exceptions to this. Tui and La deserve commendation for their helping humans at great cost to themselves, as does the Painted Lady. I also know that spirits are capable of reform, as Raava did when she warmed up to Wan after dismissing him as a meddlesome, bumbling troublemaker and being repulsed at the idea of cooperating with him. But at best, this means that the human world needs comprehensive inter-dimensional immigration reform. They need to exert tight control over the spirit portals and ensure that the only spirits who get through are those willing to live peacefully with humans on equal terms. Korra's keeping the spirit portals open was, in typical Korra fashion, wildly irresponsible, short sighted, and extraordinarily dangerous to humankind.


      Your opinions are so 'pro-human' it hurts...

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    • Intelligence4 wrote: the mother of faces did what she did because the avatar asked her too. now however, the avatar has no such authority.

      It's the Avatar's duty to maintain peace and balance in the world and between spirits and humans, now more than ever even. So yeah, she still ahs that authority, imho.

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    • This is what they will explore is Book 3, DID she make the right choice. I will wait to see how book 3 goes before I pass my own judgement

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    • AvatarLance
      AvatarLance removed this reply because:
      quoted wrong post
      14:26, November 17, 2013
      This reply has been removed
    • Obviously some spirits remained in the physical world after Wan forced them back into their own world.

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    • Well, I believe that the world can' t stay the same always, everything changes and everything progresses. Yes, the decicion was rather risky, and there are lots of challenges and difficulties lying ahead, humans and spirits must learn to accept each other and coexist harmoniously. But wasn' t it also risky when Aang decided to create URN? It might have been hard at first, but it worked in the end. Besides, didn' t separating humans and spirits seemed more like simply running away from the problem rather than facing it? I know, it might provoke many conflicts, but it seems to be the only way for both sides to understand what' s wrong with them and work out the issues. Peace is a hard thing to build, and in order to progress towards it, sometimes we have to choose the hard and patchy way. But if we really want to progress, that is the only way. Joining humans and spirits might be hard at the beginning, as any major change in the world. But still, it' s worth trying. Will it work or not - the time will show. Also, wasn' t it Guru Pathik who said separation is only an illusion?

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    • Powerful spirits like Hei Bai and the moon and ocean spirits can still enter the physical world even if the portals are closed, as such spirits actually have a purpose to fulfill in the physical world and are tied to it

      As for all the (dark) spirits we saw in the material world at the start of LOK book 2, I guess it's just that around the time of harmonic convergence and winter solstice it's easier for spirits to cross over not needing the portals. And then after Korra opened the first portal, even more spirits came rushing into the material world.

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    • Yea maybe they can get along, but why do they need to. What is the point of humans living in the spirit world and spirit in the material. Its not like you need peace between them. The only time that their is conflict is during the harmonic convergance. So honestly what is the point? Nothing is accomplished by letting man and spirit interact.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      Understand him how? He never reacts to Aang's speech in any specific capacity. Also, animals have a natural understanding of guarding territory.

      Yes he does. He stops his rampage in response to Aang's teaching him about the miracle of acorns, something that an animal who supposedly has a "natural understanding of guarding territory" should have known. Moreover, if you are correct in saying that he's just a dumb animal, then that only proves my point. He's just a violent, ignorant bear who has no business playing soldier in human forests.

      Korra understands that segregation is not harmony. This is exactly the same conclusion that her predecessor came to.

      Aang tried to restore the Earth and Fire Nations to their pre-war separation before he understood that the populations were too intertwined to separate. Thus, he had to create a fifth nation, as that was the only viable solution. The absence of hamony created by his attempts to separate them was extraordinarily apparent,  as war nearly broke out again in response to his attempts to ensure separation. Korra had the opposite problem. The absence of harmony in Korra's case arose, not because she was trying to separate the two worlds, but because Unalaq was trying to unite them. It was when humans and spirits lived in one world that there was no harmony, as the two sides tried to annihilate one another. Wan's separation created more harmony, while Unalaq's attempts at reunification destroyed it. If anything, Wan's mistake was that he did not seal the borders tightly enough to prevent Unalaq's minions, and other assorted riffraff like Koh and Hei Bai from getting through. Instead of completing Wan's prescient work, Korra undid it.

      This is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because Wan chooses to break up the Spirits & the humans, that reinforces natural distrust. "Of course the humans are bad for us," our hypothetical Spirit might say, "Why would the Avatar forbid them from coming to our world if that wasn't true?" Humans have more respect for the Spirits because Wan went around convincing them to respect the Spirits. The Spirits never had that. However, we've seen plenty of times that positive experiences with humans can change the attitudes of Spirits for the better.

      Spirit contempt for humans predates Wan's separation of the two worlds, and indeed was the very cause of Wan's actions. As I mentioned in my earlier post, spirits like Koh, the Mother of Faces, Wan shi Tong, and Hei Bai view humans with suspicion, if not outright hostility, despite being able to cross between the two worlds. The fundamental cause of the dispute is spirits' refusal to comprehend humans' need to utilize natural resources. This gap, which could not be bridged even in Wan's time, has only increased as humans have developed into more powerful and advanced civilizations. Wan's decision prevented war between the two species, allowing humans to enjoy a higher standard of living without Luddite spirits constantly interfering. If the spirits were upset at humans doing something as wholly necessary as gathering firewood and hunting for meat, then they are only going to be more enraged at, for instance, humans' extensive use of fossil fuels, and drastic alterations of the natural landscape to make way for cities. There are obviously more understanding spirits like Tui and La, as well as the Painted Lady. But they were able to go about their activities despite Wan's closing the spirit portal, as were more malignant ones like Koh. Again, if anything, this means that Wan did not seal the borders tightly enough and police them to make sure the bad spirits stayed out while the good spirits came in. This is what Korra should have implemented, not an unregulated free for all.


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    • Rinzuto wrote: In Wan's time, the prejudices were already too deep for peace to exist between spirits and humans, but hopefully things will be different this time. In Wan's time, it was necessary for peace and balance for the two worlds to be separate, but perhaps it is not so in Korra's day. In Wan's time, it was Vaatu - the spirit of chaos and darkness - who made the worlds collide, but this time it's the Avatar, who is both human AND spirit, that brings them together. Moreover, the Avatar includes Raava, the spirit of peace herself. 

      What makes you think these prejudices have lessened any since Wan's time? As I mentioned earlier, spirits who can and do cross between the worlds still view humans with contempt 10,000 years later. Like Korra, Wan was also the Avatar, yet he was unable to bring the two worlds together, which is why he had to force them apart. If Wan could not do it, what makes you think Korra can, in a world where humans have become decidedly less spiritual and more materialistic and destructive?

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    • Rinzuto wrote:

      The key phrase here is that the spirits in Wan's day were originally, as you said, led by Vaatu. He is a corruptive and chaotic spirit by nature, so the human/spirit conflicts were due largely to his influence. 

      When I said led by Vaatu, I meant that he was the first to cross over, as he mentioned. However, he was not the king of spirits, and they clearly don't answer to him. The human/spirit conflict was certainly not due to some nebulous "corruption and chaos" from Vaatu. It arose from a very real concern over resources. The humans needed natural resources to survive, and the spirits were unwilling to give them an inch after having the gall to colonize virtually the entire human world, despite having their own perfectly good realm to live in. Indeed, even after Vaatu was locked up for 10,000 years, spirits like Hei Bai, Koh, and Wan shi Tong, among others, continued to view humans with contempt, and continued to lay claim over human territory and interfere in human affairs, due to an underlying sense of entitlement, arrogance, and outright supremacism clearly independent of Vaatu.

      This time, the sprits are led into the material world by people like Jinora and the Avatar (who is both human AND spirit, and who includes Raava, the spirit of peace and balance).

      Wan was every bit the union of human and spirit that Korra is. If anything, he was the more capable of the two. Even he couldn't bring humans and spirits together, which is why he forced them apart. If he couldn't do it, what makes you think Korra can, in a more thoroughly damaged world at that?

      I agree with you that the spirits will certainly need instruction and guidance, and that peace between spirits and humans won't be effortless. But give them a chance, yea?

      Everything was fine before the portals were opened. If anything, Korra's experience tells her that they need to be sealed tighter, not thrown wide open.

      Koh is a bit of a jerk, although it's arguable whether that's his choice or if it's just part of his being.

      All the more reason to keep him in the Spirit World, where he belongs. If he can't control what he does, then he's like a lunatic serial killer. We don't keep these guys in padded rooms and straightjackets for nothing. Korra is essentially allowing him to stroll right into the human world and steal any face he likes.

      Hei Bei probably had some vestigial racism against humans, but he wasn't stupid or incompetent.

      Blaming innocent people for burning a forest without even bothering to figure out the truth behind it, and without listening to their protests, is the very definition of incompetant in this context. If he did have some vestigial racism against humans, then he is the last spirit who deserves to "guard" a human forest.

      He couldn't stop the burning of the forest because he couldn't influence the physical world when it wasn't near enough to the Solstice (that was a major point of that episode), but as the Solstice draws nearer, he starts to make commotion.

      How can he be considered a spirit guardian of a forest if he can only access said forest for a few hours every year?

      The unnatural burning of the forest was something he blamed on humanity in general, not really targeting the specific perpetrators.

      Then he's worse than useless. Not only is this so-called "forest guardian" incapable of, you know, actually guarding the forest from the Fire Nation, but he's also incapable of tracking them down after the fact and punishing them. Instead, he blames the first humans he sees and punishes them without listening to their protests. He's like a police officer who not only fails to stop an arson, but instead of finding the perpetrators, starts randomly shooting the victims' neighbors. There is literally nothing more he could do to demonstrate how incompetant he is.

      Moreover, it's not that he didn't know that trees grow from acorns, but rather that Aang's full intent to help the forest recover changed Hei Bei's feelings toward humans. The exact sort of thing the Avatar is meant to do.

      Aang had no intention whatsoever of helping the forest recover. He had bigger things to do, like punishing the Fire Nation that burned Senlin Forest, and thus had little time for Hei Bai or his crybaby antics. Aang's point was that the forest would regrow on its own, and wisely did not choose to spend the rest of his life planting acorns to keep Hei Bai happy. This is something that this much vaunted "forest guardian" should have understood better than anyone, and yet it took a supposedly inferior, violent, tree burning human to enlighten him.

      Lastly, I think that certain spirits have a particular connection with areas of the material world. They have may a deep personal attachement to it, or perhaps an official responsibility and duty as its guardian - Tui and La, for example, are defined and identified by what they have care over in the material world. That's the claim they have to it. That's why they can call something "my forest." In addition, some spirits clearly personify things that exist in both worlds, such as Raava and Vaatu. Perhaps Hei Bei looks after a spirit forest as well?

      Then they are hypocrites, as I mentioned earlier. If they can have "deep personal attachments" to human areas, or even an "official responsibility" to guard them (bestowed by whom, I might ask) then why are they so vehemently territorial when humans display similar tendencies in their world? Take Tenzin, for instance. He wasn't even being presumptuous enough to claim a deep attachment to that creepy spider thing's cave, let alone trying to claim areas of the Spirit World for himself. He wanted to get out ASAP, and was essentially thrown in spirit Azkaban for wanting his daughter, who did not belong in the Spirit World, taken out of it. That the spirits are so insistent on maintaining absolute sovereignty over their world, but so nonchalant about claiming areas in the human world for themselves, and taking them away from humans who they see as incapable of properly looking after them, strikes me as their believing in some kind of spiritual White Man's Burden.


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    • Jdnjo wrote: Your opinions are so 'pro-human' it hurts...

      I'm not so-much pro-human as much as I am anti-racism and anti-colonialism, both of which are tendencies that spirits have exhibited. If the spirits are so vehement about humans not being allowed in their world, then they can hardly claim anything in the human world for themselves. If they do enter, they must do so according to human rules, which is no less than they demand for humans who enter their world.

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    • Equalist wrote:
      Jdnjo wrote: Your opinions are so 'pro-human' it hurts...
      I'm not so-much pro-human as much as I am anti-racism and anti-colonialism, both of which are tendencies that spirits have exhibited. If the spirits are so vehement about humans not being allowed in their world, then they can hardly claim anything in the human world for themselves. If they do enter, they must do so according to human rules, which is no less than they demand for humans who enter their world.


      Agreed!

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    • ^Thus we set up the conflict for the next two books. Unless the writers just write off everything like they did before.

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    • And humans have shown that same racism and colonialism in the world of Avatar. Sozin destroyed an entire culture and his grandson almost burned down a second. That didn't stop Aang and helping in a new nation that encompasses all four nations after the war.

      Who knows how Korra will lead the spirits and humans towards mutual peace, but at the end of the day in 10,000 years in the future would it be better to have Vaatu with an army of willing spirits ready to drown the world in shadow, or Vaatu finding himself alone against everybody?

      Everybody is capable of being a jerk, human or spirit. That doesn't mean they shouldn't learn to exist together.

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote:
      And humans have shown that same racism and colonialism in the world of Avatar. Sozin destroyed an entire culture and his grandson almost burned down a second. That didn't stop Aang and helping in a new nation that encompasses all four nations after the war.


      Aang only did that because his attempts at separation failed. Wan's however, succeeded for 10,000 years. Why upset the apple cart and risk Koh stealing everyone's face in Republic city, or the Fog of Lost Souls driving everyone crazy? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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    • OR just get all the spirits back (all of them) to the spirit world and remove the portals. I guess Korra can't do that because Raava is merely a reactive spirit while Vaatu was an active spirit. Vaatu created the bridge between the worlds while Raava couldn't or perhaps doesn't have that kind of power?

      That does beg a question: what power does Raava really have? Vaatu can influence spirits but so can other powerful ones (Mother of All Faces can do something very similar). It seemed the unique Vaatu powers are opening gates and purple lazer beams. However, Raava didn't ever seem to have anything other than tenacity?

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    • Aang realized his attempts at separation were flawed. It very clearly could have worked if he nuked Fire Lord Zuko in the face like he had asked, but then Katara mentioned that in his desire for separation, Aang the Air Nomad couldn't be with a Water Tribe girl. Unless of course we decide Aang should be a hypocrite and live under the belief that he is above the world and he can co-mingle with the rest of the world while everyone else stays separated.

      And why risk it? To do the duty that even Wan wanted; to make the world a better place for everyone. Of course it's going to be paved with thorns, but why on earth should that stop her for trying? Wan tried for 10,000 years to get people to stop mass killing each other and with Aang he succeeded. Now Korra's line of Avatars will work to get humans and spirits to stop this whole one side is better than the other and actually live together.

      And to point out, bringing up bad spirits and not bringing up bad people is...i don't know the correct word, a double standard?

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    • From Bumi's tales, there still seemed to be conflict going around. You wouldn't need separate Armies and Navies if Aang truely succeeded. Remember that Wan failed during his lifetime at bring balance, too. It was also only during his lifetime as the other Avatars themselves are still their own individual selves. Granted, they are all connected but each can choose for themselves (Aang did choose a different route than his four former selves).

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    • When I say "succeeded" I don't mean all wars are done forever. That crap is impossible by the very nature of humanity. There has been no large scale (and will most likely not, given how the Avatar world seems to work) war that threatens to throw the entire planet out of balance. In that case, especially with the world the people of the world uniting to create a fifth nation, then yeah he succeeded.

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    • Well, there's six of them now.

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    • ^I wouldn't even call the Equalist conflict a war either but it's implications were far deeper.

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    • "Yea maybe they can get along, but why do they need to. What is the point of humans living in the spirit world and spirit in the material. Its not like you need peace between them. The only time that their is conflict is during the harmonic convergance. So honestly what is the point? Nothing is accomplished by letting man and spirit interact."

      Peace & balance are ends unto themselves. If you want a more practical answer, nothing can be done about Spirits like Koh so long as they're ignored, & the Avatar can't just leave the human world, seal the portal behind herself, & deal with every malicious spirit in the world. If there's passage between the 2 worlds, then she can attend to the problems in the Spirit World that occasionally threaten the human world.

      "I'm not so-much pro-human as much as I am anti-racism"

      You realize that making sweeping generalizations about the spirits & saying that they should all be locked away for humanity's own good is basically Fantasy Racism, don't you?

      "Yes he does. He stops his rampage in response to Aang's teaching him about the miracle of acorns, something that an animal who supposedly has a "natural understanding of guarding territory" should have known."

      Because he SAW the acorn, Aang's speech was irrelevant. From a narrative perspective, it was just so that we would know what was going on.

      "Moreover, if you are correct in saying that he's just a dumb animal, then that only proves my point. He's just a violent, ignorant bear who has no business playing soldier in human forests."

      Except that he's a BEAR. By your logic, we should kill all bears because they're "violent" & "unreasonable" by human standards. And somehow don't belong in the forest.

      "The absence of hamony created by his attempts to separate them was extraordinarily apparent, as war nearly broke out again in response to his attempts to ensure separation."

      And now things are much more harmonious.

      "Korra had the opposite problem. The absence of harmony in Korra's case arose, not because she was trying to separate the two worlds, but because Unalaq was trying to unite them."

      No, it arose because of Unalaq's evil. The world was already chaotic because of what Unalaq's armies were doing. The Dark Spirits were only attacking because Unalaq & Vaatu were converting them to evil. The portal is open for quite a while, but with the exception of Unalaq's Dark Spirits, no Spirits come out to attack humans during the whole time it's open. Then Unalaq goes to fuse with Vaatu--something that can only happen every 10,000 years, mind you--& attacks Republic City. So it was a HUMAN with Spirit powers who attacked Republic City. Also, Korra could not have won without the help of Spirits like Raava & the Dragon Bird.

      "Instead of completing Wan's prescient work, Korra undid it."

      The fact that Wan could even convince the Spirits to go home in the first place proves that they can change.

      "Spirit contempt for humans predates Wan's separation of the two worlds, and indeed was the very cause of Wan's actions."

      Did you not catch that whole "reinforcing natural distrust" part?

      "As I mentioned in my earlier post, spirits like Koh, the Mother of Faces, Wan shi Tong, and Hei Bai view humans with suspicion, if not outright hostility, despite being able to cross between the two worlds."

      You know, now that you bring it up, you seem to specifically emphasize the "bad spirits." By this logic, shouldn't the Fire Nation have been destroyed because we saw a lot of bad people from there? We can't really lock them all away in their own world.

      The fundamental cause of the dispute is spirits' refusal to comprehend humans' need to utilize natural resources."

      We don't actually see what started the conflict, only how it ended up for humans. Did you ever consider that maybe the reason why Spirits think that humans are violent & destructive is because they had a history of attacking Spirits before being forced onto the Lion Turtles? Yes, Spirits are slow to understand human needs, but to suggest that this makes them evil & prejudiced is ironically ethnocentric.

      "This is what Korra should have implemented, not an unregulated free for all."

      We won't know the exact conditions of travel between the 2 worlds until subsequent Books.

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    • Yeah but the spirits in Wan's time has some nerve acting as if they owned the physical world, as if they had any say in that world over the humans themselves.

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    • So did everyone just forget about the Ancient Airbenders that coexisted peacefully with Spirits in Beginnings Part 2?

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    • Notice that those spirits were tiny? Remember that before the HC, there was that massacre of humans? Remember that humanity was pushed all the way back to just the lion turtle cities?

      Usually you put down an animal that has killed multiple humans. Granted, that's an animal and spirits are spirits.

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    • What about them?

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    • "Usually you put down an animal that has killed multiple humans. Granted, that's an animal and spirits are spirits."

      I happen to think that his practice is wrong. Very few animals actively hunt humans. They should be relocated, if possible. If not, yes, you can put them down. However, most of the animals that are killed under this rule are not responsible, it's just that humans keep stupidly provoking them, & then someone contacts a lawyer, & because the animal has a "history," it's killed.

      Relating to the Avatar World, yes, spirits who consistently do bad things & show no evidence of being able to be reformed should be destroyed or at least imprisoned, like Vaatu was.

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    • Spirit and man already have one world. Do they really need another? It not racism to expect spirits in the spirit world and man in the material. I don't hear any spirits besides vaatu complaining about it. 

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    • It kinda is, it's "go back to your country, foreigner" on a larger scale.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      It kinda is, it's "go back to your country, foreigner" on a larger scale.

      I dont see anyone complaining

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    • That doesn't make it right.

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    • Do you think Vaatu winning Harmonic Convergence 20,000 years ago had any effect on the relationship between humans and spirits? He was the one who created the portals, which brought the spirits over to the material world. Thus beginning Vaatu's 10,000 year Dark Age.

      When Wan defeated Vaatu, he chose to separate humans and spirits instead of focusing on fixing their relationship (which at the time was a very good option).

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    • I don't know if Vaatu ever won a Harmonic Convergence or had any effect on the Spirits' attitudes.

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    • Yes, it wouldn't be right to just deny the spirits access to the material world, but neither is it right for the spirits to act as if they own the material world and have a say in any of its affairs like the spirits in Wan's time did.

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    • As Avatar Wan's speech goes, "Different groups of people must learn to live together."

      Well, now that that's been accomplished, it's time for humans and spirits to learn to live together, hence Korra's speech, "Humans and spirits must learn to live together."

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    • At risk of sounding like Verrick I have to ask this.

      Is nobody the least bit concerned about how this is going to effect the World Economy?

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    • This isn't Macross and that forced living together ended pretty badly. It wasn't until generations later that tensions relaxed and there were still quite a number of conflicts brewing. Even in Star Trek, people were still fighting. And these examples were between humanoids.

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    • Racism was not a Problem. . . .  Specism was much more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."

      - Terry Pratchet

      Humanity only agrees with itself when it has a common foe to fight. No matter how you slice it, this is not going to end well for the Airbender universe.  

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    • Pretty much.

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    • I don't know what it would do to the economy?

      The Avatar World seems to have lived more-or-less in peace for 70 years. From their perspective, there hasn't really been a large scale common enemy since the Hundred Years War. Yakone was just a crime boss. Amon was confined to Republic City. Everyone saw Unalaq as an internal affair among the Water Tribes.

      It also helps that Spirits are religious entities in all 4 nations. They're probably not going to go out of their way to stir up trouble with them.

      As for the reverse, there were plenty of Spirits that were more than happy to help Team Avatar, & others that just wanted to fly around majestically.

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    • What if a spirit of Luck cleaned out a Casino? Or a Spirit of Agriculture grows crops in instants that puts hundreds of people out of work? Or an Alchemic Spirit renders Gold worthless?

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    • What if none of those are even possible? Sure, it's a cause for concern if those Spirits exist, but they might not. Also, casinos throw you out if you win too much.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Also, casinos throw you out if you win too much.

      Which is so unfair! lol

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    • You guys need to consider that Korra is doing something that no avatar has ever accomplished. All the avatars managed to bring peace and balance between the 4 nations, but Korra went beyond that and is managing to bring peace and balance between the material world, and the spirit world ! 

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    • Assuming Koh or Wan Shi Tong doesn't bring in an Army of evil spirits, and starts a huge and destructive war with the human world.

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    • There is a spirit that makes everyone's faces so there might be quite a number of others. Perhaps it's time for multiple Avatars?

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    • I don't remember seeing people worship spirits in RC or the South Pole. We also haven't seen any of the other nations so we can't be sure that spirits are religious entities.

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    • AtomicPsychology wrote: He was the one who created the portals, which brought the spirits over to the material world.

      Where does it say that? I keep reading it on these boards but don't remember anyone on the show saying that he created those portals.

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    • http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Spiritual_beliefs_in_the_World_of_Avatar

      There's also the Avatar Temples, which it doesn't mention.

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    • It's all TLA stuff, I don't see the changes from LoK. Why? Because they haven't been adressed. We don't know the current spiritual beliefs because they haven't told to us.

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    • We know the NWT is still spiritual. And where ever Korra washed up with the elderly priestess in Beginnings 1

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    • Yeah, there is continuity with Avatar, & we have no reason to believe that it all went away, or something.

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    • LostandOld wrote:

      AtomicPsychology wrote: He was the one who created the portals, which brought the spirits over to the material world.

      Where does it say that? I keep reading it on these boards but don't remember anyone on the show saying that he created those portals.

      I LIVED TEN THOUSAND LIFETIMES BEFORE THE FIRST OF YOUR KIND CRAWLED OUT OF THE MUD! IT WAS I WHO BROKE THROUGH THE DIVIDE SEPARATING THE PLANE OF SPIRITS FROM THE MATERIAL WORLD! TO HATE ME IS TO GIVE ME BREATH, TO FIGHT ME IS TO GIVE ME STRENGTH! NOW PREPARE TO FACE THE SHIFT KEY! OBLIVION!

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    • I'm still missing it though I see where it can be seen. What I mean to say is that when he said that line "It was I, that broke through the divide, that seperated the plane of spirits from the material world"- (Just rewatched the ep to get the quote), Still sorta lost on why there is two portals then unless Raava made the second one in an attempt to balance one portal made by Vaatu. Even more skeptical if he made the portals or just literally crashed through the divide at some point and the portals were made in an attempt to get the spirits that followed him, a way to go back to their own plane. The way harmonic convergence plays out, it made it seem like those portals were meant to be there, I dunno but thanks for pointing it out to me!

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    • "You know, it was really unclear."

      Also, no problem.

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    • LostandOld wrote:
      We know the NWT is still spiritual. And where ever Korra washed up with the elderly priestess in Beginnings 1


      We know the the old fire priests in TLA used to revere Avatar Roku but they had changed in the 100 year difference. See how a span of time changed their practices? All I'm saying is that we don't really know anything about current spirituality in LoK and using sources from events 70ish years ago does not accurately describe modern trends.

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    • That's not a good reason to disregard what we do know entirely.

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    • No, I think she made the wrong choice. Vaatu was the first spirit to break the wall between the Spirit World and the physical world, that kinda implies they are not supposed to mix...

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    • Just because Vaatu is the one who did it doesn't mean it's intrinsically bad.

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    • thats not true before the avatar the spirit portals was open vaatu and raava was the same thing fighting forever... then come Wan that broke this "equilibrium" separate raava and vaatu and close the portal. Then come korra that reopen the portals like was before and reunite vaatu and raava.. end of the circle of the old avatars and begin of a new circle.

      I think is a good idea first there are a lot of good spirit and a little evil spirit, secon the opening of the portal can permit the spirits and human finaly work together like wan dream, he become friend of the spirit and try to make the human befriend them thank to vaatu the spirits become dark and attack humans.

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    • The cycle didn't end because raava and vaatu "reunited". Wan had no choice as even with Vaatu "gone" the spirits and humans would still fight eachother as they were before Raava and Vaatu split. Its only different now with Korra because people are more accepting of spirits in Korra's time.

      Not sure if it was a good thing or not as she only made her job that much harder.

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    • How do you know that humans are more accepting in Korra's time? We haven't seen basic interaction with spirits and the majority of people. You could say that the opposite is true: there have been more negative things from spirits (like the numerous dark spirit attack AND the dark avatar destroying parts of RC) then positive ones.

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    • Really, we don't have to see every individual person's reaction in depth, a lot of this is common sense. We know that people are more accepting of the Spirits in Korra's time because reasoning with or attempting to pacify them were completely alien concepts in Wan's time.

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    • also people don't hate the spirits in an extreme racism sort of way. in wan's time, people would attack spirits on sight, whereas nowadays, with the exception of the fn during the war, people are a little more reverent.

      while i personally believe that the story shouldn't have taken the direction of leaving the portals open, the in-universe perspective is that in wan's time they had to be closed until humanity's relationship with the spirits could be repaired. now that they respect each other a little more, the portals are able to be left open.

      that said, mixing my personal opinion with the storyline, i don't think it makes sense to have them open: in all instances when they were opened, it was instigated by a "bad guy": vaatu first broke thought the divide that separated the two worlds, and unalaq tricked korra into opening them.

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    • @NeoBahamut: There's no indication of that with the people in Korra's time. On the contrary, people in the present time have a devastated RC to look at. The cause? A spirit.

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    • Take into account that it's been 10,000 years since general people have interacted with spirits. It doesn't look good for peaceful relations at the start. It doesn't mean that after another 10,000 years things do not get better.

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    • "the cause? a spirit."

      technically, the cause was an avatar of a spirit - that avatar being a deranged man with an obsession for power who destroyed the other avatar that everyone knew and loved. so...i don't think people will have an animosity towards spirits just b/c of rc.

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    • Now that different groups of people (the 4 nations) have learned to live together in harmony, it's time for different species (humans and spirits) to learn to live together.

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    • lance, that's actually a really good way to put it, although i wouldn't call the spirits a species.

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    • Kubernes wrote: @NeoBahamut: There's no indication of that with the people in Korra's time. On the contrary, people in the present time have a devastated RC to look at. The cause? A spirit.

      Confirmed that you're taking "I'll believe it when I see it" to a ridiculous extreme. 10,000 years of religious progress & tradition is not going to be undone overnight. It's probably not going to be undone in 70 years. And we have seen evidence that the old religions are still mostly in-tact. The Fire Sages are still practicing & even have an expanded facility, there are of course the Air Acolytes, & no one questioned if Unalaq's spirituality discredited him even after it was apparent that he was a tyrant. Oh yeah, & then there is the positive reception to Korra's speech about uniting the 2 worlds.

      So, yes, there are indications, & your theory that the Avatar religions have been on a downward spiral, & will finally be completely be undone by the fallout from Unavaatu, is completely unsupported speculation.

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    • What harm did closing the portals cause? Obviously Unalaq was against it, so what was the problem with keeping it closed? I forgot. But even if the spirit portals are closed spirits are able to go in out of the spirit world into the physical world anyway. That's how the spirits got there when the portals were supposed to be closed by Wan. Maybe Korra believes that closing the portals creates animosity between spirits and humans and opening the portals allows for them to live together in peace since spirits go in and out of the spirit world anyway. She probably feels like the old world was ignorant of spirits and disrespectful to them but this new world has come a long way from that. The four nations can be four separate nations but by occupying the world without threatening each other is an example of living together in peace. That's what Korra hopes to do by keeping the portals open. Allowing humans and spirits to live together without boundaries. Boundaries create segregation and harbors animosity towards those that differ. Openness breeds understanding and coorperation. 

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    • On the note of Spirits attacking humans, I think it's fair to say that Korra & Jinora have suffered more at their hands (or tentacles, or whatever) than anyone else so far. Korra was heckled & attacked by groundhogs for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, Korra was repeatedly attacked by Dark Spirits, including one time where she was almost eaten & given amnesia, they were both betrayed by formerly friendly Spirits turning dark, Jinora was betrayed by Wan Shi Tong & thrown into the fog place, & Vaatu tried to destroy them both, admittedly along with the rest of the world.

      So, if they can learn to set their differences aside & be at peace with the Spirits, then I don't see why anyone else can't.

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    • Intelligence4 wrote:
      lance, that's actually a really good way to put it, although i wouldn't call the spirits a species.


      Yeah well, you know what I mean xD

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      But even if the spirit portals are closed spirits are able to go in out of the spirit world into the physical world anyway. That's how the spirits got there when the portals were supposed to be closed by Wan.

      Not exactly.

      The only spirits that can travel back and forth between both worlds freely with the portals closed, are the ones of significant importance in the material world, spirits that have a task or a purpose to fulfill in the material world, like Tui and La, Hei Bai, and others.

      There are also a handful of locations in the Avatarverse that act as bridges to the spirit world, such as the spirit oasis at the north pole or forgetful valley.

      Also, during the solstices, the both realms grow so very close to each other that the line between them becomes very blurred, enabled spirits to manifest in the material world or greatly influence it. This is how all those spirits came into the real world at the start of Korra book 2. Also people with the ability to enter the spirit world will find it much easier during the solstices.

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    • I kind of thought that there had been Dark Spirits lying in wait for 10,000 years. We never find out what happened to the Spirits that Vaatu converted & took with him in Beginnings. Only the Aye-Aye is ever seen restored to normal, & we don't even know how that happened. Or, come to think of it, what became of him. Maybe he'll be in later Books.

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    • Well, I think with Vaatu locked away, the dark spirits could be turned back into their normal forms by Raava's 'light essence'.

      Remember from Beginnings part 2, when the aye-aye and the other spirits from the oasis faced off against Wan's friends from his lion turtle city. Vaatu's appearance turned them dark, but when Wan and Raava shone the light upon them they returned to normal for a moment until Wan passed out.

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    • Actually, only the Aye-Aye did, & it's implied that this had to do more with his personal history with Wan.

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    • Anyway, if Vaatu's influence corrups spirits and turns them dark, than Raava's influence should do the opposite.

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    • Spirits are like humans, all bear great potential for good and for evil. Tragically most fall into the latter category.

      Again, this is not going to end well for the Airbender-verse.

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    • AvatarLance wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      But even if the spirit portals are closed spirits are able to go in out of the spirit world into the physical world anyway. That's how the spirits got there when the portals were supposed to be closed by Wan.
      Not exactly.

      The only spirits that can travel back and forth between both worlds freely with the portals closed, are the ones of significant importance in the material world, spirits that have a task or a purpose to fulfill in the material world, like Tui and La, Hei Bai, and others.

      There are also a handful of locations in the Avatarverse that act as bridges to the spirit world, such as the spirit oasis at the north pole or forgetful valley.

      Also, during the solstices, the both realms grow so very close to each other that the line between them becomes very blurred, enabled spirits to manifest in the material world or greatly influence it. This is how all those spirits came into the real world at the start of Korra book 2. Also people with the ability to enter the spirit world will find it much easier during the solstices.

      Yeah.. that's what I meant to say. Only certain locations and circumstances allows the spirits to travel back and forth. Plus those spirits like Hei Bei that can go between the worlds. But I'm sure there were spirits trapped in the physical world after Wan closed the portals. Otherwise, how did the spirits attack Tonraq when he went into the forest and destroyed it. Those spirits must have been trapped there. 

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      AvatarLance wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      But even if the spirit portals are closed spirits are able to go in out of the spirit world into the physical world anyway. That's how the spirits got there when the portals were supposed to be closed by Wan.
      Not exactly.

      The only spirits that can travel back and forth between both worlds freely with the portals closed, are the ones of significant importance in the material world, spirits that have a task or a purpose to fulfill in the material world, like Tui and La, Hei Bai, and others.

      There are also a handful of locations in the Avatarverse that act as bridges to the spirit world, such as the spirit oasis at the north pole or forgetful valley.

      Also, during the solstices, the both realms grow so very close to each other that the line between them becomes very blurred, enabled spirits to manifest in the material world or greatly influence it. This is how all those spirits came into the real world at the start of Korra book 2. Also people with the ability to enter the spirit world will find it much easier during the solstices.

      Yeah.. that's what I meant to say. Only certain locations and circumstances allows the spirits to travel back and forth. Plus those spirits like Hei Bei that can go between the worlds. But I'm sure there were spirits trapped in the physical world after Wan closed the portals. Otherwise, how did the spirits attack Tonraq when he went into the forest and destroyed it. Those spirits must have been trapped there. 


      Or it happened during a solstice?

      Anyway, it was a spiritual forest that most likely acts as a bridge between the two planes.

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    • Yup. It could be both. 

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    • You would think that if all the nations lived in harmony, there wouldn't be a need for all those different nations? That's because there's still some unnamed conflicts going on. We were extremely close to another war just after the hundred year's year in 'The Promise' alone.

      As for Raava, we still don't really know its powers. Her presence never seemed to calm spirits. It seemed more likely that the lack of Vaatu calms them, or atleast reverts them.

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    • There are still cultural differences that probably won't change between nations, could be a reason why its not total harmony, I mean, they are human..

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    • AvatarLance wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      AvatarLance wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      But even if the spirit portals are closed spirits are able to go in out of the spirit world into the physical world anyway. That's how the spirits got there when the portals were supposed to be closed by Wan.
      Not exactly.
      The only spirits that can travel back and forth between both worlds freely with the portals closed, are the ones of significant importance in the material world, spirits that have a task or a purpose to fulfill in the material world, like Tui and La, Hei Bai, and others.

      There are also a handful of locations in the Avatarverse that act as bridges to the spirit world, such as the spirit oasis at the north pole or forgetful valley.

      Also, during the solstices, the both realms grow so very close to each other that the line between them becomes very blurred, enabled spirits to manifest in the material world or greatly influence it. This is how all those spirits came into the real world at the start of Korra book 2. Also people with the ability to enter the spirit world will find it much easier during the solstices.

      Yeah.. that's what I meant to say. Only certain locations and circumstances allows the spirits to travel back and forth. Plus those spirits like Hei Bei that can go between the worlds. But I'm sure there were spirits trapped in the physical world after Wan closed the portals. Otherwise, how did the spirits attack Tonraq when he went into the forest and destroyed it. Those spirits must have been trapped there. 

      Or it happened during a solstice?

      Anyway, it was a spiritual forest that most likely acts as a bridge between the two planes

      Tonraq was in a spiritual forest so there were spirits there. also thats where the portal is and I'm sure some spirits have the ablity to enter the mortal world at anytime. or like they said i couldve been near the solstice.

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    • As for korra, i think it was very stupid what she did because now shes gonna have the same problems over and over again. and who says humans and spirits will get along??? also we will have a bunch of humanish-spiritish- things going around cuz when a spirit enters u for a bit u end up looking like it ------beginnings------ so thats gonna be another problem. and who says shes gonna be able to take care of it all. wan could barely take care of one spirit. Vattu. plus theres another issue. like raava grew out of vattu the same will happen with vattu. he will eventually grow out and become independant again. and korra wont be able to trap him in the tree of time again because harmonic convergence is over. thats also not regarding the fact that if vattu doesnt come out of korra then he can make her evil, as she will have darkness inside of her!!! BIG PROBLEMS----

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    • The physical world is built upon conflict and taking into account the next book is called 'Change', there's going to be conflict over Korra's choice. A better question to ask now is "Will this conflict be meaningful or are going to get a repeat of shallow villains and their evil plans?"

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    • Kubernes wrote:
      The physical world is built upon conflict and taking into account the next book is called 'Change', there's going to be conflict over Korra's choice. A better question to ask now is "Will this conflict be meaningful or are going to get a repeat of shallow villains and their evil plans?"

      honestly im over all this spirit shit. i hope its different and i bet it will be cuz the book has an earth theme to it so maybe they'll be able to put a whole new twist onto the series.

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    • I guess there has to be something with spirits in the next unless they do a 180 and ignore the open portals?

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    • the book is dealing with the change brought onto the world after hc and korra's fight with her uncle...so basically they're continuing b2's theme even though they said they were going to do something different for each book.

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    • BolinSpirit wrote:
      As for korra, i think it was very stupid what she did because now shes gonna have the same problems over and over again. and who says humans and spirits will get along??? also we will have a bunch of humanish-spiritish- things going around cuz when a spirit enters u for a bit u end up looking like it ------beginnings------ so thats gonna be another problem. and who says shes gonna be able to take care of it all. wan could barely take care of one spirit. Vattu. plus theres another issue. like raava grew out of vattu the same will happen with vattu. he will eventually grow out and become independant again. and korra wont be able to trap him in the tree of time again because harmonic convergence is over. thats also not regarding the fact that if vattu doesnt come out of korra then he can make her evil, as she will have darkness inside of her!!! BIG PROBLEMS----

      Vaatu will grow over the course of 10,000 years, and re-emerge near the next HC.

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    • Most Spirits shown are evil only if you count the Dark Spirits, which is unfair, because they are possessed by Vaatu. If you remove the Dark Spirits from the equation, most of the Spirits we saw were good or neutral.

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    • (Cough) Koh The Facestealer (Cough) (Cough) Wan Shi Tong (Cough)

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    • Now here's a list of spirits who never attacked the "good guys" unprovoked, unless they were under Vaatu's influence:

      This does not count human spirits or unlisted spirits that I have no way of even describing.

      Even with a large number of qualifiers, it's still easy to show that most of the spirits seen so far are peaceful.

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    • Vaatu is like an enhancer, he just brings out what is already there.

      Personally, an entire race of beings that can do this to a human being for doing nothing intentionally wrong needs to be kept at least an arms length away from humanity.
      Yao
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    • What about an entire race of people who can do this to a person with a flick of the wrist:

      Zuko.png

      And Zuko got off lucky. Firebenders are perfectly able to kill with minimal effort.

      What is the disconnect here? Firebenders have done a lot of damage, even up into modern times, with "Lightning Bolt" Zolt, the Agni Kais, & a seemingly endless parade of dead parents. So why don't we say that Firebenders, & the Fire Nation in general, need to be segregated for everyone else's good?

      The thing about Vaatu isn't true. Angered spirits are easier for him to control, but he's still taking control of them against their will. When Aye-Aye was freed from his influence, he had no idea what was even going on. Furryfoot had no reason to turn against Jinora at all, but just completely changed when he was turned dark. By the time Harmonic Convergence rolled around, it was abundantly clear that he & Unalaq could take control of spirits with almost no effort at all. Do you think that so many spirits really wanted to guard Unalaq's compound? Of course not. They had no "reason" to do that for Vaatu to "enhance." They were involuntarily drafted into Unalaq's & Vaatu's personal army.

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    • There's also the scene where child Korra gets upset and all of the spirits around her begin to transform. It's apparently that easy but maybe only in the spirit world?

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    • There is a reason I supported the Equalists.

      At least when facing off against a bender you know what you are up against, and can create technology to counteract that threat and compensate for ones own lack of bending.

      Electrified glove
      But as shown twice in the series, Technology that one can use to defend himself against a bender is all but useless against a Spirit.

      Not to mention spirits can do things with a minimum of effort even the most skilled of benders cannot do. Things like the following.

      • Possess and Control Machines and human beings
      • Permanently Deform and Alter human beings beyond the ability of Plastic Surgery to Repair.
      •   Are prone to extreme mood swings and violence when humans overstep their supposed "boundaries", all of which lead to a level of destruction no Non-Avatar bender could hope to match without Sozin's Comet or a Similar enhancement.
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    • And that makes them unworthy of basic respect? Does the extreme irony of this argument really fly right past you? If collective blame is such a BS philosophy, why are you applying it to the Spirits?

      Note also that, not only do I have a long list of good Spirits, but most of the Spirits in that list are not particularly powerful.

      Kubernes: I don't think the Spirits actually became Dark Spirits. They became discolored & irritable, but they neither turned violent, nor possessed any of the traits specific to Vaatu's Dark Spirits like the glowing eyes. Furthermore, when Korra gets upset, you see the clouds spreading from Hai Ryo Peak, but those clouds were already there, which according to Iroh was because of Unalaq & his troops. So, although Korra's emotions are the cause of the Spirits becoming upset, it's implied that the ease with which it happens is yet another example of how Vaatu & Unalaq are destabilizing the Spirit World.

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    • Bottom line, men even men with powers over nature are at least predictable. Gods and monsters beyond human morals. . .watch your back.

      Some spirits are benevolent, and others are necessary to maintain the balance. But that doesn't mean I'd want them living alongside me.

      Human nature is this: We hate what we fear, and we fear what we can't control. What's more uncontrollable than a spirit jacked up on negative vibes?

      Whether Korra was right or wrong however, I am looking forward to seeing where Bryke go with the story.

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    • I'm more interested in the far reaching and lasting effects of Vaatu's actions. So much of what they were doing and what was going on seemed far too vague. Perhaps they clear up what spirits can and cannot do in the future. It can be said that Raava cannot undo all of the damage that Vaatu does.

      As for nonbenders against Spirits, what can they do? Just hope that spirits don't do the same thing that they did in Beginnings?

      Lastly, empathy towards the Equalists is easier for a few reasons. First, because they lack the abilities of benders. Secondly, they still seemed to have far fewer opportunities (in general) than benders. Lastly, they are still subject to the problems that are not addressed with the creation of RC. RC was built to bring together the nations but it's builders (Aang and team Avatar) were unable to see that it did not change the social and economic barriers that separated people. That failing ultimately begins the chain reaction that is the Equalist Rebellion.

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    • But why listen to Human Nature? That guy's drunk, off his meds, & likely yelling some racist rant at a lamp. The list of ways that intuitive thought misleads us in every day situations is simply staggering. I'd prefer to follow reason & empiricism, which says that there's not too much to fear from Spirits, beyond a few lunatics that you're not very likely to run into.

      I'm glad you at least find the development interesting, though.

      "As for nonbenders against Spirits, what can they do? Just hope that spirits don't do the same thing that they did in Beginnings?"

      What happened before Beginnings is a mystery, but it seems to derive from the fact that many ancient cultures believed that nature was a place to be feared & driven away from society, a place that was home to monsters & evil magic. Nature is dangerous, but the risks are extremely exaggerated by mythology. I think this was much the same during "Beginnings," as once Wan has learned a bit about the world outside of his Lion Turtle, his life in the wilds actually seems quite comfortable.

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    • There's far more reasons to be cautious about spirits and humanity together than to be extremely positive at good times ahead. We also know that spirits themselves didn't come from the physical world but migrated over time. Now, we don't know exactly when. There also seems to be a disconnect between TLA spirits (which I would say were aspects of nature) and the changes we saw during this book.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      Peace & balance are ends unto themselves. If you want a more practical answer, nothing can be done about Spirits like Koh so long as they're ignored, & the Avatar can't just leave the human world, seal the portal behind herself, & deal with every malicious spirit in the world. If there's passage between the 2 worlds, then she can attend to the problems in the Spirit World that occasionally threaten the human world.

      But why allow the spirits to threaten the human world more than occasionally by leaving the portals open in the first place? There were enough threats to the human world while they were closed, so why increase the threat by opening them?

      You realize that making sweeping generalizations about the spirits & saying that they should all be locked away for humanity's own good is basically Fantasy Racism, don't you?

      On the contrary, I specifically made distinctions between harmful spirits, like Hei Bai and Koh, and benevolent ones, like Tui and La and the Painted Lady. In contrasts, its spirits like Wan Shi Tong and Hei Bai who make sweeping generalizations about humans they do not understand. The Mother of Faces is a case in point: "Avatar or not, you humans are all the same: selfish, shortsighted, insolent!"

      Because he SAW the acorn, Aang's speech was irrelevant. From a narrative perspective, it was just so that we would know what was going on.

      He clearly understands human speech. For instance, he understood that Roku wanted him to take Aang out of the spirit world, and blasted that rude baboon spirit for harassing Aang. If it was just a matter of seeing acorns, he wouldn't need Aang to show him one, since there were plenty on the forest ground.

      Except that he's a BEAR. By your logic, we should kill all bears because they're "violent" & "unreasonable" by human standards. And somehow don't belong in the forest.

      He's a six legged monster spirit who chooses to take the form of a bear and live in a human forest due to an overblown sense of entitlement. Real bears belong in forests. Spirit bears do not. They belong in the Spirit World.

      And now things are much more harmonious.

      Yes, actually, things were much more harmonious. There was no real conflict until the Equalist rebellion and later, Unalaq's Dark Spirit takeover, neither of which had to do with Aang's decision to create the United Republic.

      No, it arose because of Unalaq's evil. The world was already chaotic because of what Unalaq's armies were doing. The Dark Spirits were only attacking because Unalaq & Vaatu were converting them to evil. The portal is open for quite a while, but with the exception of Unalaq's Dark Spirits, no Spirits come out to attack humans during the whole time it's open. Then Unalaq goes to fuse with Vaatu--something that can only happen every 10,000 years, mind you--& attacks Republic City. So it was a HUMAN with Spirit powers who attacked Republic City. Also, Korra could not have won without the help of Spirits like Raava & the Dragon Bird.

      Unalaq was evil because he wanted to unite the spirit and human realms by opening the portals, an action that would necessarily free Vaatu at the time of harmonic convergence and allow him and his spirit horde to overwhelm the world. There would have been no conflict had Unalaq not wanted to unite the two worlds. Spirits don't use the portals' being open to attack humans because they don't need the portals open to do so; they'd been doing it long before either was open, although you can't deny that their being open only makes this easier. Moreover, dark spirits also existed due to Vaatu's influence long before Unalaq came around; the man was a piece, not a player.

      The fact that Wan could even convince the Spirits to go home in the first place proves that they can change.

      And the fact that Wan sent them home anyway suggests that even he felt that only a handful of spirits were capable of reform, meaning that the vast majority had to be sent home. Heck, he even deports the Aye Aye, and understandably so. The Aye Aye was nice to Wan, but hostile to all other humans, and he was among the handful of reformable spirits.

      Did you not catch that whole "reinforcing natural distrust" part?

      I did, but I don't think its a valid explanation. If so, we would see those spirits who could pass between the two worlds regularly as being devoid of the anti-human prejudice of their counterparts who were stuck in the spirit world. Instead, the results are mixed, with some spirits, like the Painted Lady, showing compassion, and others, like Koh, Wan Shi Tong, and Hei Bai, showing hostility.

      You know, now that you bring it up, you seem to specifically emphasize the "bad spirits." By this logic, shouldn't the Fire Nation have been destroyed because we saw a lot of bad people from there? We can't really lock them all away in their own world.

      The problem with the Fire Nation was its bloodthirsty military leadership and its brainwashing school system. Aang notices in one of the comics that the vast majority of the Fire Nation populace is indifferent to the war. So, his solutions were to reform the school system with independent thinking and creativity, and replacing the country's head of state. This was an appropriate solution. The Fire Nation's people are humans who belong in the human word. There's no place else to send them, and no reason to do so. In contrast, we have no real reason to believe that humans and spirits somehow need to live in the same world together, aside from Korra's saying so. What we do know however, is when humans and spirits try to live together, whether it is in Wan's time period or Korra's there is more conflict, while when they did not, during Aang's period, there was much less.

      We don't actually see what started the conflict, only how it ended up for humans. Did you ever consider that maybe the reason why Spirits think that humans are violent & destructive is because they had a history of attacking Spirits before being forced onto the Lion Turtles? Yes, Spirits are slow to understand human needs, but to suggest that this makes them evil & prejudiced is ironically ethnocentric.

      We know enough. We know that the spirits do not want humans to fulfill even basic needs like food, fuel, or shelter if they involve any sort of harm to the natural world. We know that they invaded the human world and not the other way around, laying claim to almost all of it, driving the humans, who had once lived all over the world, to seek refuge on LTs. I don't see reason to believe that the spirits are not the aggressors here. The humans are not, after all, trying to tell the spirits how to live their lives in their own world, let alone claiming any of it. All they really wanted was to be left alone to manage their affairs as they see fit. The spirits refuse to grant them this very understandable and basic autonomy, while hypocritically denouncing any human entry into their own world. In this manner, they remind me of the imperialist United States that interfered in Chinese politics and claimed territorial concessions in China, while legally banning Chinese immigrants from even entering the United States. Indeed, the whole idea of the spirits claiming human land and claiming that they, not the primitive humans, know how best to use it smacks of a spirit version of the White Man's Burden.

      It kinda is, it's "go back to your country, foreigner" on a larger scale.

      It's more like the colonized people of the Americas, Africa, and Asia telling the Europeans to go back to Europe and let them rule themselves.

      On the note of Spirits attacking humans, I think it's fair to say that Korra & Jinora have suffered more at their hands (or tentacles, or whatever) than anyone else so far. Korra was heckled & attacked by groundhogs for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, Korra was repeatedly attacked by Dark Spirits, including one time where she was almost eaten & given amnesia, they were both betrayed by formerly friendly Spirits turning dark, Jinora was betrayed by Wan Shi Tong & thrown into the fog place, & Vaatu tried to destroy them both, admittedly along with the rest of the world. So, if they can learn to set their differences aside & be at peace with the Spirits, then I don't see why anyone else can't.

      All this means is that Korra and Jinora are willing to ignore the grim reality of spirit/human tensions and naively assume everything will be okay despite numerous indications to the contrary. If anything these experiences should tell Korra that the portals must be closed.


      Now here's a list of spirits who never attacked the "good guys" unprovoked, unless they were under Vaatu's influence:

      This does not count human spirits or unlisted spirits that I have no way of even describing.

      Even with a large number of qualifiers, it's still easy to show that most of the spirits seen so far are peaceful.

      And here's a list of spirits who have attacked the "good guys" unprovoked

      Vaatu

      Hei Bai

      Koh

      Mother of Faces (Aang does not attack her before she attacks him)

      Mother of Faces' Wolf Spirit

      Spider Thing

      Wan Shi Tong

      Fog of Lost Souls


      Even thought the list of good spirits is cleary longer than the list of bad ones, the good ones are, as you mentioned, relatively weak. The powerful ones are the movers and shakers of the Spirit World. They are the ones who matter most and it seems that most of them are biased against, if not outright hostile towards humanity. For all their benevolence, I highly doubt that the Painted Lady or even Tui and La, let alone Furryfoot, could actually defeat Koh or Wan Shi Tong should the latter decide to mess with humanity.

      What happened before Beginnings is a mystery, but it seems to derive from the fact that many ancient cultures believed that nature was a place to be feared & driven away from society, a place that was home to monsters & evil magic. Nature is dangerous, but the risks are extremely exaggerated by mythology. I think this was much the same during "Beginnings," as once Wan has learned a bit about the world outside of his Lion Turtle, his life in the wilds actually seems quite comfortable.

      They believed it was home to monsters and evil magic because it was in fact home to monsters and evil magic that permanently deformed or killed them. Wan is hardly the first to have gone outside his settlement. The whole reason that hunting parties needed firebending is so that they could defend themselves against spirits. Indeed, they were only able to successfully expand outside the LT is because they had enough firepower to fight back against the spirits and clear land. I don't see any reason to believe that the threat was exaggerated by mythology.


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    • "Spirits don't use the portals' being open to attack humans because they don't need the portals open to do so; they'd been doing it long before either was open, although you can't deny that their being open only makes this easier."

      That's not true.

      There are a few places in the Avatar World that are highly spiritual and act as bridges between the 2 worlds, through which any spirit can travel freely between the 2 worlds. For example, Forgetful Valley and the Spirit Oasis at the North Pole.

      Also, during the Solstices, which happens twice per year, the Human World and Spirit World are very very close together and the line between them is so blurred that it allows spirits to manifest in the Human World, and also allows humans who have the ability to enter the Spirit World (in spirit, through meditation) to cross over to the Spirit World much easier than it would normally be if it wasn't a Solstice. This is the reason so many regular (dark) spirits could cross over to the Human World at the start of Korra book 2, because it was a Solstice period.

      However, only spirits that are tied to something in the human world, or have a significant purpose to fulfil in the human world can cross between the 2 worlds freely without use of the portals or the Solstices or special places that act as bridges between the two worlds like the Oasis.

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    • AvatarLance wrote:

      There are a few places in the Avatar World that are highly spiritual and act as bridges between the 2 worlds, through which any spirit can travel freely between the 2 worlds. For example, Forgetful Valley and the Spirit Oasis at the North Pole.

      Also, during the Solstices, which happens twice per year, the Human World and Spirit World are very very close together and the line between them is so blurred that it allows spirits to manifest in the Human World, and also allows humans who have the ability to enter the Spirit World (in spirit, through meditation) to cross over to the Spirit World much easier than it would normally be if it wasn't a Solstice. This is the reason so many regular (dark) spirits could cross over to the Human World at the start of Korra book 2, because it was a Solstice period.

      However, only spirits that are tied to something in the human world, or have a significant purpose to fulfil in the human world can cross between the 2 worlds freely without use of the portals or the Solstices or special places that act as bridges between the two worlds like the Oasis.

      Precisely. And the North Pole, for instance, is where Koh took the face of Kuruk's fiancee. Hei Bai was able to take Sokka into the Spirit World due to the solstice. The Wolf Spirit that belonged to the Mother of Faces was also able to drag Aang into the Spirit World despite its not being a solstice. Wan Shi Tong took his library back to the Spirit World despite not being in a spiritual area or doing so during the time of a solstice. Vaatu probably created the portals when he broke into the human world. Clearly, powerful spirits can find ways to get through and hurt people if they want to. Korra's opening the portal only makes that easier.

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    • Maybe it's better not to label spirits as good or evil. They seem to operate on their individual rules rather than the ones we try to impose on them. The Mother of Faces attacks Aang after he swam after her and treated it as a slight against her "benevolent" once-per-year goodwill act. She even uses the weaker animal spirits to attack the group.

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    • I agree. It was even said that there are no Light or Dark Spirts. 

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    • If human beings operated on their individual rules, we'd have wiped ourselves out with our own selfishness a  long time ago.

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    • AvatarIonathan wrote:
      I agree. It was even said that there are no Light or Dark Spirts. 

      Right, right. Then what are Raava and Vaatu, exactly?

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    • exceptions to the rule?

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    • People do operate on their own individual rules but there are certain "universal" rules that help prevent mutual destruction.

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    • Honestly, I feel like Korraava and Unalaatu should've destroyed each other or stalemated or something, because their fight was too much protected by plot devices -_-

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    • Maybe if it was book 4? I still liked the idea of her somehow forcing Vaatu to join with her and having to deal with both a light and dark spirit.

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    • "He clearly understands human speech. For instance, he understood that Roku wanted him to take Aang out of the spirit world, and blasted that rude baboon spirit for harassing Aang. If it was just a matter of seeing acorns, he wouldn't need Aang to show him one, since there were plenty on the forest ground."

      Animals can react to specific words & tones. This does not mean that they understand human language. Avatar also exaggerates this, but it's still clear that the animals can not understand speech.

      "He's a six legged monster spirit who chooses to take the form of a bear and live in a human forest due to an overblown sense of entitlement. Real bears belong in forests. Spirit bears do not. They belong in the Spirit World."

      You could say that...but then again, a bear would also not make distinctions about which forest it should or should not be in. If this also applies to spirit bears, then the point is moot.

      "Unalaq was evil because he wanted to unite the spirit and human realms by opening the portals, an action that would necessarily free Vaatu at the time of harmonic convergence and allow him and his spirit horde to overwhelm the world. There would have been no conflict had Unalaq not wanted to unite the two worlds."

      No, you're twisting that way beyond the point where it's a reasonable interpretation of causation. Unalaq's specific goal was to free Vaatu to fuse with him & then overwhelm the world. This stuff didn't "just" happen because the portals opened. Unalaq planned to do it & opened the portals for that purpose. Wan even said that he feared a HUMAN going in to the Spirit World to release Vaatu. Opening the portals was just a means to an end, you might as well argue that the Avatar system is evil, because that was also part of Unalaq's & Vaatu's plan. Because, obviously, a force being used for evil once or twice completely rules out any possibility that it could ever be used for good.

      "Unalaq...was a piece, not a player."

      The finale says otherwise.

      "And the fact that Wan sent them home anyway suggests that even he felt that only a handful of spirits were capable of reform"

      You're assuming many things here. For instance, what if Wan sent the Spirits away to protect them from humans?

      "I did, but I don't think its a valid explanation. If so, we would see those spirits who could pass between the two worlds regularly as being devoid of the anti-human prejudice of their counterparts who were stuck in the spirit world."

      No we wouldn't. That's an unrealistic, loaded assumption. Having contact with other groups does not guarantee that you, specifically, will be best friends with that group, it just makes it more likely, statistically, that someone in your position will have a positive attitude towards them. Conversely, it is not necessarily the case that any Spirit who has never interacted with humans will hate them. You'll notice there were 2 Spirits who sympathized with Wan immediately after meeting him, presumably having no prior experience.

      "Aang notices in one of the comics that the vast majority of the Fire Nation populace is indifferent to the war."

      Wasn't in the first series, so by your standards, we really should consider the comics non-canon. We didn't see it in the show, so obviously it didn't happen. The people of the Fire Nation could just be blockaded in their archipelago. Energybend their Benders, draft a treaty that dismantles their technology, force the Fire Lord to answer to the Avatar, the "Bridge Between the Nations." It's perfectly feasible, & we can just ignore those good people, because it's for the greater good to seal away the bad ones.

      "We know enough. We know that the spirits do not want humans to fulfill even basic needs like food, fuel, or shelter if they involve any sort of harm to the natural world."

      Well, actually, no Spirits stepped in to stop that hunting party that attacked Mula except to save Wan, & the Spirits of the Air Lion Turtle saw no problem with them picking fruits, so this isn't really true. And I can see that I actually did give you a reasonable explanation for why the Spirits might consider humans violent, & you dismissed it completely out of hand.

      "Indeed, the whole idea of the spirits claiming human land and claiming that they, not the primitive humans, know how best to use it smacks of a spirit version of the White Man's Burden. It's more like the colonized people of the Americas, Africa, and Asia telling the Europeans to go back to Europe and let them rule themselves."

      Fair enough, but also completely infeasible after a certain point. Nobody from the US of A was going to go back to a country that they betrayed. They would have also had strong roots in the territory, which was the whole premise of "The Promise."

      "Even thought the list of good spirits is cleary longer than the list of bad ones, the good ones are, as you mentioned, relatively weak."

      Nope. For starters, your standards were way less stringent than mine. You decided to include any Spirit that attacked in any way. I specifically limited myself to Spirits that could not be called "evil" by any objective measure. But, whatever, even playing with this loaded deck, the Spider & Wan Shi Tong are not particularly powerful, & Koh only has one power which is pretty irrelevant if you use a mask or attack from long range--meanwhile, the good spirits include Koizilla & Raava. So, no, your characterization of "good but weak vs. violent & powerful" is not even remotely accurate.

      "I don't see any reason to believe that the threat was exaggerated by mythology."

      It helps that you outright ignored Wan living peacefully in the wilds. In fact, according to the people of his Lion Turtle city, it wouldn't have been possible for him to survive the night. "No exaggeration" indeed.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Animals can react to specific words & tones. This does not mean that they understand human language. Avatar also exaggerates this, but it's still clear that the animals can not understand speech.

      Except that spirits are spirits, not animals.

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    • Many Spirits are in fact animals, but it's irrelevant, you shouldn't state for a fact that Hei Bai can understand speech unless you can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Hei Bai's actions can be explained alternatively through real world standards, let alone by Avatar standards where Momo, an as far as we know untrained lemur who is confirmed not to understand human speech, regularly & without command does things like:

      • Unlocking cages
      • Searching the city streets for fur matching Appa's
      • Stealing enemy weapons
      • Fetching food for the others

      In fact, that's a pretty good litmus test. If Momo can probably do it, it's not sufficient proof that it requires near human intellect.

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    • I somehow agree with you. Now the connection with the past, and the previous avatars is totally gone. And I honestly don't think that Korra did actually bring balance to the world, because now only Ravaa exists and Vaatu is so gone, which means that the world isn't balanced anymore because both of Ravaa and Vaatu must exist to balance the world. Anyway, I don't think that the show would be as fun as it was without the connection with the previous avatars (especially Aang). Starting a pure new age?.... Honestly that's sick! But there is no one to blame.

      On the bright side, I personally think that the dark avatar storyline could of been developed a lot further. 

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      Many Spirits are in fact animals, but it's irrelevant, you shouldn't state for a fact that Hei Bai can understand speech unless you can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Hei Bai's actions can be explained alternatively through real world standards, let alone by Avatar standards where Momo, an as far as we know untrained lemur who is confirmed not to understand human speech, regularly & without command does things like:
      • Unlocking cages
      • Searching the city streets for fur matching Appa's
      • Stealing enemy weapons
      • Fetching food for the others

      In fact, that's a pretty good litmus test. If Momo can probably do it, it's not sufficient proof that it requires near human intellect.


      Humans are humans, spirits are spirits and animals are animals. Even if they look like animals, they're still spirits and not animals.

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    • I just realized something.....spirits in their dark form are able to enter the human world. But when they are in their light form, they have to go back to the spirit world. When the dark spirits "go in peace" they automatically go back to the spirit world. the same thing happened with Hei Bai. Once Aang gave him the acorn, he returned to normal and went back to the spirit world.

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:

      Animals can react to specific words & tones. This does not mean that they understand human language. Avatar also exaggerates this, but it's still clear that the animals can not understand speech.

      You could say that...but then again, a bear would also not make distinctions about which forest it should or should not be in. If this also applies to spirit bears, then the point is moot.

      You could say this is he was an actual bear. However, he's a spirit, who switches between monster and bear form regularly. Simply because he looks like a bear doesn't mean he necessarily has the intelligence of one. Again, even if you're right, that only means he has no business guarding a forest, since he lacks the mental capabilities to distinguish between innocent and guilty people, which is a pre-requisite for being a guardian of anything.

      No, you're twisting that way beyond the point where it's a reasonable interpretation of causation. Unalaq's specific goal was to free Vaatu to fuse with him & then overwhelm the world. This stuff didn't "just" happen because the portals opened. Unalaq planned to do it & opened the portals for that purpose. Wan even said that he feared a HUMAN going in to the Spirit World to release Vaatu. Opening the portals was just a means to an end, you might as well argue that the Avatar system is evil, because that was also part of Unalaq's & Vaatu's plan. Because, obviously, a force being used for evil once or twice completely rules out any possibility that it could ever be used for good.

      I never said opening the portals was in and of itself an evil act, only that it facilitated disharmony, whether it was done during Wan's time or Unalaq's, a fact Korra knows, but seems to ignore. We have no real reason to assume that there was anything unharmonious about the portals being closed, especially seeing that conflict between spirits and humans was significanty lessened during this time. Korra opened the portals under the assumption that there was something wrong with them being closed, but doesn't elaborate, and ends up undoing a relatively effective makeshift fix created by Wan for no good reason; she doesn't give any indication that she's taking into consideration the potentially negative outcomes, despite seeing the consequences of open portals twice.

      The finale says otherwise.

      If anything, it shows us that Vaatu provided the bulk of the power behind Unavaatu, which suggests that Unalaq was a vehicle, not an equal partner.

      You're assuming many things here. For instance, what if Wan sent the Spirits away to protect them from humans?

      Because his life experience tells him that it is spirits who entered the human world and forced humans onto LTs and then opposed their usage of natural resources for survival with lethal force. At any rate, the fact that he saw both parties eventually attacking one another suggests that he separated them for their own good, to protect them from each other. The point is that, despite personally experiencing the fact that some spirits and some humans could live together, even Wan, who knew that some spirits were capable of change, forced the vast majority of spirits out, including the Aye Aye, who had proven that he could live with humans to some extent. I don't see any reason to believe he made the wrong decision, as Korra says. 

      No we wouldn't. That's an unrealistic, loaded assumption. Having contact with other groups does not guarantee that you, specifically, will be best friends with that group, it just makes it more likely, statistically, that someone in your position will have a positive attitude towards them. Conversely, it is not necessarily the case that any Spirit who has never interacted with humans will hate them. You'll notice there were 2 Spirits who sympathized with Wan immediately after meeting him, presumably having no prior experience.

      If it is not necessarily the case that any spirit who has never interacted with humans will hate them, as you say, then the idea that Wan's separation necessarily enforces natural distrust, as you mentioned earlier, must not be true.

      Wasn't in the first series, so by your standards, we really should consider the comics non-canon. We didn't see it in the show, so obviously it didn't happen. The people of the Fire Nation could just be blockaded in their archipelago. Energybend their Benders, draft a treaty that dismantles their technology, force the Fire Lord to answer to the Avatar, the "Bridge Between the Nations." It's perfectly feasible, & we can just ignore those good people, because it's for the greater good to seal away the bad ones.

      I don't see why the comics ought to be considered non-canon; I never said that I considered them to be so. Moreover, the problem was never the benders or technology per se, it was the benders in the military, especially its leading generals and Fire Lord, as well as the military technology they used, that was the problem. We don't know exactly what changes Zuko made following his coronation, but I wouldn't be surprised if he cut the military down to size and kicked the hawks off his council. As far as the Fire Lord being answerable to the Avatar, that's something that Zuko himself promotes when he gives Aang permission to kill him should he turn out too much like his father. The problematic aspects of the Fire Nation can easily be identified and neutralized, because its an organized society; Aang could identify the schools, the military, and the leadership as the institutions in need of change. In contrast, the spirits have no leader, no system of government, and no social institutions that anyone could use to identify the source of their contemptuous attitude towards humans. We don't really know why, for instance, they feel so protective of natural areas, nor why they are so indifferent to the human need for resources. This is why seperation is a more viable option that even Wan considers appropriate; despite obviously having considered co-existence, he ultimately rejected it. The subsequent events in the series and comics give us no reason to doubt him, aside from Korra's unsupported belief that he was somehow wrong. 

      Well, actually, no Spirits stepped in to stop that hunting party that attacked Mula except to save Wan, & the Spirits of the Air Lion Turtle saw no problem with them picking fruits, so this isn't really true.

      We know that the hunting parties take fire into the forest so that they can defend themselves from spirits, which suggests that the spirits are opposed to hunting. They defend Wan from hunters, yes, but the hunters are only attacking him because he's stopping them from getting food for the city, hardly an unreasonable endeavor, and one that Wan himself had supported not too long ago. Though they may not be opposed to the eating of fruit (and that too, fruit that is not in "their" oasis) they clearly are opposed to humans taking meat and wood, which are still basic human necessities. At any rate, the spirits have no business telling humans what they can or cannot harvest from forests in the human world.

      And I can see that I actually did give you a reasonable explanation for why the Spirits might consider humans violent, & you dismissed it completely out of hand.

      Because it doesn't make sense. It is canon that the spirits are the ones who came into the human world and started laying claim to natural areas. They barred humans from using them as they wished, forced them onto LT reservations, and then whined when humans retaliated. All human/spirit conflict that we saw during this era was over resources, whether it was humans wanting to hunt, or Wan wanting to eat fruit at the spirit oasis. If the humans did have a history of attacking spirits, as you claim, its because the spirits colonized the forests and unfairly limit human use of them.

      Fair enough, but also completely infeasible after a certain point. Nobody from the US of A was going to go back to a country that they betrayed. They would have also had strong roots in the territory, which was the whole premise of "The Promise."

      The spirits have no standing roots in the human world analogous to those of the FN colonists in the Promise. There were no human/spirit biracial families. There was no spirit contribution to human technological or economic development; if anything the spirits slowed the pace of human progress by limiting their expansion. Prior to Wan's intervention, spirits hadn't done anything in the human world to justify their living there, unlike the FN colonists.

      Nope. For starters, your standards were way less stringent than mine. You decided to include any Spirit that attacked in any way. I specifically limited myself to Spirits that could not be called "evil" by any objective measure. But, whatever, even playing with this loaded deck, the Spider & Wan Shi Tong are not particularly powerful, & Koh only has one power which is pretty irrelevant if you use a mask or attack from long range--meanwhile, the good spirits include Koizilla & Raava. So, no, your characterization of "good but weak vs. violent & powerful" is not even remotely accurate.

      On the contrary. With the exception of Vaatu, none of the spirits I listed could really be considered absolutely evil, not even Koh, who apparently does not steal faces out of malice. I picked them not merely because they attakced humans in any way, but specifically because they attacked humans unprovoked; it just so happens that they are moderately to extremely powerful. Wan Shi Tong was big and powerful enough that he could significantly destroy big parts of the library and came very close to killing Team Avatar. Koh was so powerful that even the Avatar was unable to stop him. The Spider was also large and powerful enough to intimidate experienced fighters like Tenzin and his siblings into running away. Hei Bai was strong enough to kidnap villagers and destroy significant parts of village infrastructure, while the Fog of Lost Souls effortlessly drove people insane. In contrast, both Raava and Koizilla only became powerful after merging with the Avatar. Raava, for instance, had the power to hold elemental abilities, but it was only Wan and his reincarnations who could actually bend elements. We don't even know if she had the equivalent of Vaatu's purple energy beam. When she was seperated from Vaatu, she got weaker and he got stronger, rather than the other way around. As far as the Koi are concerned, the ocean koi was apparantly unable to prevent Zhao from killing its moon counterpart, and only became Koizilla after merging with Aang; this limitation was apparently a consequence of choosing to live in the human world. 

      It helps that you outright ignored Wan living peacefully in the wilds. In fact, according to the people of his Lion Turtle city, it wouldn't have been possible for him to survive the night. "No exaggeration" indeed.

      His city was hardly exaggerating. Recall that Wan was nearly trampled by a frog, eaten by a plant, and suffocated by spirit vines in the forest, and repeatedly had to resort to firebending to save himself. This only validates the LT city's view that the forest was indeed a place "'home to monsters & evil magic" that people needed firebending to fight against. Wan's deformed tree friend was an example of the consequences of being unprepared. Wan was literally unable to sleep in the forest for fear of being killed, and was driven to exhaustion as he was unable to eat or sleep. It was only because he found the spirit oasis that he survived, and even then the Aye-aye was perfectly willing to turn him away and let him die. He only let Wan in because Wan saved Mula and even then, it was a choice made by the Aye-aye, not something Wan could have disputed should the Aye-aye still have resolved to let him die in the wild. So, the idea that you'd die in the forest is something that even Wan would not dispute. Wan was clearly a very lucky exception to a well-established history of people dying in the forest or coming back deformed.


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    • AvatarIonathan wrote:
      I just realized something.....spirits in their dark form are able to enter the human world. But when they are in their light form, they have to go back to the spirit world. When the dark spirits "go in peace" they automatically go back to the spirit world. the same thing happened with Hei Bai. Once Aang gave him the acorn, he returned to normal and went back to the spirit world.

      Not really. That has nothing to do with it. The reason those dark spirits were able to manifest in the himan world was because it was a Solstice, which is a short period in which the human and spirit worlds are very close together. There are 2 Solstices per year, the winter and summer one.

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    • Then how do you explain the bat spirts in "The Guide"?

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    • Plot device so Korra could perfect the spirit bending technique? Without being eaten again?

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    • AvatarIonathan wrote:
      Then how do you explain the bat spirts in "The Guide"?

      One of the spirit portals was already open by then. Either that, or they have been there for a very long time somehow, or maybe since the Solstice.

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    • i didn't want to start a new thread and make more clutter here, so i figured this would be the best place to put this:

      i just rewatched the b2 premiere...and keeping the finale in mind, do you think unalaq had his plan with vaatu in mind all along? if so, how? b/c if the spirit portals were closed, then how would he have been able to make plans with vaatu? unless he found some other way into the spirit world?

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    • Were they not under a stone slab? I'm guessing that they were there for awhile.

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    • Maybe Unalaq was one of the very spiritually gifted people that can access the SW in spirit through meditation?

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    • He must have been there before coming up with that whole HC plan.

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    • right...which begs the question, when/how did he first meet vaatu?

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    • Maybe they will put it in a comic?

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    • that would be nice...

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    • Must every single thing be explained....

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    • I'll admit, keeping some mystery is essential to keep a franchise going. But if you do not explain SOME of it, people are going to get mad. Or say the creators are just pulling stuff out of their backside.

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    • I would say the only mystery we need for book 3 is the portal being left open. The problem with book 2, for me, is that the thematic logic of the story walks all over the basic logic we've come to know. Things like Jinora's appearence in RC during the monster battle, Vaatunalaq's act of ripping out Raava, Raava's voice to give Korra a second wind, or even the monster battle didn't work as well as the writers were hoping for.

      We kept asking questions over these odd occurances and it takes us, the audience, out of the picture. I can understand what they were getting at in these moments but it wasn't executed as well as it should have been.

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    • Well we knew from Beginnings that Raava can converse with the person she shares a body with.

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    • I guess the spirit world just works that way. I don't really see a reason for explanations.

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    • AvatarIonathan wrote: Must every single thing be explained....

      It's very, very rare that I agree with this, but I agree with this. Some of the questions being asked are just so trivial. People really need an exact definition of how the reincarnation cycle works? Come on, we haven't ever had that, for all of the years that this franchise has been running, & we weren't crying plot hole until recently.

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    • I think that's because the original series was able to get a hold of people's attention with enough 'believable' elements that the current book lacked. There's a certain level of give and take an average person will give to a fantasy/sci-fi work and maybe book 2 (and I suppose book 1) passed.

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    • I never really cared about 'believable' elements. I fully comprehended it and not one thing seemed out of place. I actually watch the series for enjoyment instead of just to criticize it.

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    • Well, We'll see If it was for the good or bad in the next 2 books. I would say maybe. Why? Because Aang was the Avatar who decided to Merge the 4 Nations to one with the United Republic. Against even Roku's decision and event went to so far as to no longer being attatched to him. It wasn't an easy start but it after 70 Years, things were generaly fine until the Equalist revolt and Unalaq's planning. 


      AvatarIonathan wrote:I never really cared about 'believable' elements. I fully comprehended it and not one thing seemed out of place. I actually watch the series for enjoyment instead of just to criticize it.

      LOL. I do too. .-. I rarely criticize this series. I think it's swell. Though I did think Book 2 had some irks. But they're forgivable in the end. 

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    • Heyheyheyy22 wrote:
      No, I don't think so. There is a reason why there is have 4 nations. A material world and spirit world. There needs to be balance. Spirits and man are extremely different, and will butt heads. I don't see what good will come out of letting people and spirits go back and forth? Post your opinoun.

      Well think about it, leaving the portals open allows people to travel to the spirit world and spirits to travel to the mortal world. Just like Iroh, people can go into the spirit world, let there body go in the mortal world, and come back though the portal and live on as if nothing has happened. 

      Also, Wan closed the portal because of 2 reasons. The fighting between humans and spirits, and because the spirits wanted to go back into their own world. Spirits might just start fighting with humans again. Not all of them are friendly. And techniqually, the Avatar has really no purpose. Yes to keep balance but Korra wasn't really strong against spirits. She did little to no damage to them. Just drove them away and if there are too many of them, she might as well be screwed. I still love Korra so don't get me wrong folks. Waiting for Book 3 is going to be a drag. People tend to loose interest after a year and a half of waiting. Even the comics are really slow to come out. Each of them are 4-6 months apart and it only takes an hour to finish one of them. I wanted Aang to guide Korra, just like Roku guided Aang on how the war simply started and him dying. 

      -P.S Bryke said, in an interview, that Korra's love life will not be introduced in the series again. Hence Mako hinting, "We can never be together, ever." Kinda bumbed on this note.


      Sorry for so much writing folks, I just finished LOK Book 2 in one sitting and I feel very sad that its over. Just trying to cope with sadness. Do you ever fall in love with a character so much that you just feel depressed that they aren't real... anyone feel me?

      I really do miss Aang though, not gonna lie. There adventures were amazing...I get it though Lok is a different series, not comparing them. I just wish there were more episodes or run time. There is too much information to fit into a single episode...

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    • There was nothing to indicate that the spirits in Wan's time wanted to go back home. For many of them, they had a new home in the physical realm.

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    • Also, Wan closed the portal because of 2 reasons. The fighting between humans and spirits, and because the spirits wanted to go back into their own world.

      Never once during beginnings did any of the spirits express a desire to leave the human world and return to the SW.

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    • Why else would all of them gather around the portal (during Wan's time)?

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    • Because Wan told them to under the authority of Raava? Not counting all those spirits that remained.

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    • Just like you said, we don't know that. At no point did Raava say anything. I guess its a matter of what you can cope with...

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    • I meant it as I have no idea how he did it. It was one of those moments the writers needed to hurry up the episode. It's also another instance of how the script in Beginnings should have been rewritten.

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    • Yea I guess. And theres no way you can even ask the creaters, like write to them or something...

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    • It's just a problem with writing origins for any established story. You have to be very careful and go over everything that's written so that there is as little confusion as possible. There were far too many times in Beginnings that I was questioning something.

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    • Same. Beginnings meaning the episode title correct? Just making sure. And what is WC?

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    • Well, Korra's goal shouldn't be to fight the Spirits, so the fact that she can't do much against them should be a moot point. For Spirits that can't be negotiated with, I'm sure they can come up with something.

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    • Neal1027 wrote:
      Just like you said, we don't know that. At no point did Raava say anything. I guess its a matter of what you can cope with...

      If all those spirits wanted to return to their world so badly, don't you think they would have long done so already? The portals were open so they could have gone back before if they wanted to. Nothing prevented them from going back their world before.

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    • There was about a month since Korra opened that first portal until the end of the Avatar v. Dark Avatar fight? Wasn't there a number of flying spirits floating around at the end of the show after that speech Korra makes. 

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    • Well as soon as Korra opened the portal, Spirits started coming out yea. Spirits were limited as to how many can come out because without the portals being open, there were only a couple of spots where spirits can come out, for example the eastern air temple. The second that Korra opened the portal, just like Kubernes said, spirits started floating around the portal. 

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    • The dark bat spirits were stuck under that slab if I remember. Seems easy for Vaatu to corrupt spirits so any weak spirits still in the physical realm before the portal opened could have been controlled.

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    • Thats right. Those bats wanted to come out so badly and did after Korra touched it ice, which in turn opened the portal.

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    • Well the decision was somewhat right. just think about it: spirits rarely appear in the mortal realm, and coupling this with a urban, westernized, industrial setting that surely is a letdown for nature spirits might make people believe they simply don't exist, making disrespect [towards nature (where many spirits live), spirits and spirituality itself] greater. 

      Now with the portals open, people might understand more about the spirits and how the link between both worlds work, their interdependence and so on.. So the more, the better.

      This way everyone will learn about the spirits, onwards to a more spiritual and less material/industrial world. 

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    • qin, you're back! long time no see...and it seems your wishes may be granted lol.

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    • Yes, the Emperor has returned. Bow everyone :D

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    • I thank you all, honorable ones! (^_^) 

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    • Or the opposite occurs. There's bound to be a clash mainly because of the rapid advancement of technology. 

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    • There can't be too much of an advancement because Book 3 takes place weeks after Book 2 finishes...

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    • Book 3 could take place over several months too. Book 2 took place over a month or so.

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