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  • So in the Beginnings we find out how the Avatar came to be and it got me thinking about the Avatar state and it seemed like when Rava just combined with Wan to defeat Vatuu. Rava was in charge of his body. So is it when the Avatar first uses the Avatar state is Rava in control or the past Avatars. If it is Rava then when the current avatar gets control of  the power they work together. Your thoughts?

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    • Rava is too weak to gain total control. That's why she doesn't kill the Avatar's body by remaining within them.

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    • Steph32597s wrote:
      Rava is too weak to gain total control. That's why she doesn't kill the Avatar's body by remaining within them.


      So it's a little bit of both.

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    • Or, alternately, Rava may be the catalyst for the Avatar State. She induces the state itself, at which point the past Avatars take over to provide the experience and power. If she were directly involved, Aang (and the other pre-Korra Avatars, for that matter) likely would have known about and met her during their lifetimes; as it is, they only seemed to gain awareness of her after death. This also introduces the idea that each Avatar becomes stronger than the last, as they gain another past life's worth of strength simply by being born. While subjective and debateable, this does indeed seem to be the case with Aang and Korra (i.e. Roku < Aang < Korra).

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    • You may want to read the thread linked below. And Rava did say that she would be with him through all of his lives, and we know that Aang was able to call on past Avatars, I have to say, the Avatar is all of the past Avatars and Rava.

      http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:969814#232

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    • I took it as Rava joining with Wan's spirit, so when his body dies, it must find a new vessel. So he is essentially immortal.

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    • Both

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    • Exactly what Phoenixking3000 said. It's almost always implied that the avatars are the same person, after all.

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    • ^ Right, I think people are kind of making it more complicated than it really is.

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    • Yeah, really. Roku said to aang, let's loko at our shared past... Aang told Zuko in The Promise Part 3 that Zuko was his great grandson... people got mad at Aang for what Kyoshi did, because... ding ding ding! They're the same person XD

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    • Exactly. When Wan and Rava joined she said "Now we are one" what that means is that Rava is both herself and all the past Avatars, as well as the present one. Though it seems that most Avatars retain their sense of self until they die. 

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    • well, we know from tenzin and the finale that raava isn't the same as the avatar, just...strongly bonded. like two atoms forming a molecule i guess. but the past avatars for sure don't have their own souls...there's so much evidence to support that, and hardly anything, if nothing, to say otherwise.

      as far as the avatar state, i think it's raava giving the avatar access to his memories of his past lives, and a power boost from her own soul. as seen in the finale, we know that it is raava that allows the avatar to be connected to his past lives, and from the atla premiere that the avatar state gives the avatar access to his past memories (aang knew how to do the water vortex).

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    • The finale honestly contradicted everything that we'd heard before. I mean, Vaatu referred to Korra as Raava. Raava told Wan that they were Wan. And then suddenly they can be extracted again? It makes no sense! I thought that this would be along the lines of Jean Grey when she dies with the Phoenix Froce inside of her and they come back together as Phoenix -_- But, nope, guess not -_-

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    • the way i'm thinking of it is that they actually were one...kinda. like each soul is an atom, and wan and raava formed a molecule. so, one molecule, but that molecule can still be separated. that's the best i got. or it could be that ripping raava from korra didn't mean they weren't one - like if your arm gets ripped off, it's still part of your body, just in a different physical location.

      or it could just be that vaatu was talking to raava inside of korra.

      idk.

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    • TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote: The finale honestly contradicted everything that we'd heard before. I mean, Vaatu referred to Korra as Raava. Raava told Wan that they were Wan. And then suddenly they can be extracted again? It makes no sense! I thought that this would be along the lines of Jean Grey when she dies with the Phoenix Froce inside of her and they come back together as Phoenix -_- But, nope, guess not -_-

      I actually felt it was more of a mocking/faux term of endearment to the Avatar. It's almost as if he is refusing to acknowledge Korra, the humanity of the Avatar. Because humans are beneath him and he would rather address "Raava" not Korra.

      Although he did say Avatar once before.

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    • Raava is the source of the Avatar State. When a AVvatar eneters AS, he or she draws upon Raava's spirtual energy. Raava is also connected to the past Avatars hence the avatar has access to his or her past lives. I wonder what the 'AS'power level is lol

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    • If we want to calculate powerlevels, then I would say that the avatar state is anthing less than 200.

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    • Pheonixking3000 wrote:
      If we want to calculate powerlevels, then I would say that the avatar state is anthing less than 200.


      Lol DBZ style? ;)

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    • I also think that 200 sounds pretty accurate!

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    • ^ I find myself calculating powerlevels of pretty much any fictional character I come across.  It's something I've been doing since I was a kid and I still haven't really grown out of it.

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    • Hahahahaha, it's cool :D I used to do the same ;) Though I don't really do it much anymore. But, actually, just like how, when we look at superheroes and superhoerines in the high mid tier of DC, then I also use DBZ to categorize. Like I look at which form of SS or which character they best amtch up. so, don't worry, you're not the only one who uses DBZ to power scale LOL XD I do the same ;) But not through power levels, more through transformations and positions of certain characters. Know what I mean?

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    • Wow, you guys arent giving the AS anay credit lol. 200. You saying that Master Roshi can beat Avatar State Korra. I would say aroun d 500-700. The AS has shown to have enough power to create islands by breaking it off from the mainly. A big advantage of the AS is that it never leaves the Avatar tired and out of energy. Raava's energy is infinte.

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    • Hmm. I'd say that Roshi in prime and Avatar State are 50/50, because Roshi's speed is much, much, much greater. Speedblitz leads to an invisible, quick, and messy death lmfao!

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    • @AvatarReiko

      Keep in mind that Roshi with a powerlevel of 139 was able to destroy the moon back in dragonball and still had plenty of energy in him left to fight kid Goku.  I've never seen the avatar state do anything beyond destroying those rock pillars during Sozin's comet, and Gohan at age 3 was able to destroy a huge rock pillar that was way larger and thicker than the one Aang did and he even left a crater that expanded for miles.  I think the most impressive thing I've seen in avatar is Kyoshi seperating a large landmass to become it's own island.  If Avatar State was at the power level of 500-700 then it would be strong enough to destroy a moon at least.

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    • Pheonixking3000 wrote:
      @AvatarReiko

      Keep in mind that Roshi destroyed the moon back in dragonball and still had plenty of energy in him left to fight kid Goku.  I've never seen the avatar state do anything beyond destroying those rock pillars during Sozin's comet, and Gohan at age 3 was able to destroy a huge rock pillar that was way larger and thicker than the one Aang did and he even left a crater that expanded for miles.  I think the most impressive thing I've seen in avatar is Kyoshi seperating a large landmass to become it's own island.


      Yh tou have a point.It just makes me sad that the depsite how powerful the as in avatar, its childs play compared to dbz lol :( Although, I do think that the AS power level owulld of been higher when Aang enetered it though rade and lost contol, since the power wansnt focused and was just out of control, loke at the air temple.

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    • Pheonixking3000 wrote:
      @AvatarReiko

      Keep in mind that Roshi destroyed the moon back in dragonball and still had plenty of energy in him left to fight kid Goku.  I've never seen the avatar state do anything beyond destroying those rock pillars during Sozin's comet, and Gohan at age 3 was able to destroy a huge rock pillar that was way larger and thicker than the one Aang did and he even left a crater that expanded for miles.  I think the most impressive thing I've seen in avatar is Kyoshi seperating a large landmass to become it's own island.

      This is a very, very good point. Roshi fought toe to toe with Goku after destroying the moon, so, I am in completel agreement that, in his primse, he's equivalent to Avtatar State at the very least. Which means that Piccolo should be equivalent to Avatar State and Vaatu combined. And end of DB Goku should be equal to the entire Avatarverse. But that's being really generous. Would you put the combined Avatarverse/Korraverse below or above end of Dragonball Goku?

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    • @ AvatarReiko

      Yeah it is kind of sad, because the avatar state is a very powerful form don't get me wrong. It's just that other characters can go further beyond because their universe just has a more powerful foundation.  And dbz isn't even the only one, there are many other animes that also make the avatarverse look like childs play.

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    • AvatarReiko
      AvatarReiko removed this reply because:
      thy
      23:45, December 2, 2013
      This reply has been removed
    • TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Pheonixking3000 wrote:
      @AvatarReiko

      Keep in mind that Roshi destroyed the moon back in dragonball and still had plenty of energy in him left to fight kid Goku.  I've never seen the avatar state do anything beyond destroying those rock pillars during Sozin's comet, and Gohan at age 3 was able to destroy a huge rock pillar that was way larger and thicker than the one Aang did and he even left a crater that expanded for miles.  I think the most impressive thing I've seen in avatar is Kyoshi seperating a large landmass to become it's own island.

      This is a very, very good point. Roshi fought toe to toe with Goku after destroying the moon, so, I am in completel agreement that, in his primse, he's equivalent to Avtatar State at the very least. Which means that Piccolo should be equivalent to Avatar State and Vaatu combined. And end of DB Goku should be equal to the entire Avatarverse. But that's being really generous. Would you put the combined Avatarverse/Korraverse below or above end of Dragonball Goku?


      Hmmmm. Below end of Dragonball Goku. I think that in order for the avatar to even stand a chnace, they would have to be in the continuous AS, like what aand did against ozai. This would given them the ability to at least fly at speeds. The major problem for the avatarverse is their lack in speed.  y the end of Dragonball goku was shown to be moving at lightspeeds during the 23rd toutnament.Goku is pysically stronger than the avatar Goku could also use the solar flare technique. All he would have to do is headbut Korra and she is pretty much clinging to her life lool. Senzu beans for Korra. The only element that might prove effective against goku is maybe fire.

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    • Pheonixking3000 wrote:
      @ AvatarReiko

      Yeah it is kind of sad, because the avatar state is a very powerful form don't get me wrong. It's just that other characters can go further beyond because their universe just has a more powerful foundation.  And dbz isn't even the only one, there are many other animes that also make the avatarverse look like childs play.


      This is true. Sasuke at this point could also make the Avatarverse look like child's play, no?

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    • AvatarReiko wrote:
      TarrlokUltimateWaterbender wrote:
      Pheonixking3000 wrote:
      @AvatarReiko

      Keep in mind that Roshi destroyed the moon back in dragonball and still had plenty of energy in him left to fight kid Goku.  I've never seen the avatar state do anything beyond destroying those rock pillars during Sozin's comet, and Gohan at age 3 was able to destroy a huge rock pillar that was way larger and thicker than the one Aang did and he even left a crater that expanded for miles.  I think the most impressive thing I've seen in avatar is Kyoshi seperating a large landmass to become it's own island.

      This is a very, very good point. Roshi fought toe to toe with Goku after destroying the moon, so, I am in completel agreement that, in his primse, he's equivalent to Avtatar State at the very least. Which means that Piccolo should be equivalent to Avatar State and Vaatu combined. And end of DB Goku should be equal to the entire Avatarverse. But that's being really generous. Would you put the combined Avatarverse/Korraverse below or above end of Dragonball Goku?
      Hmmmm. Below end of Dragonball Goku. I think that in order for the avatar to even stand a chnace, they would have to be in the continuous AS, like what aand did against ozai. This would given them the ability to at least fly at speeds. The major problem for the avatarverse is their lack in speed.  y the end of Dragonball goku was shown to be moving at lightspeeds during the 23rd toutnament.Goku is pysically stronger than the avatar Goku could also use the solar flare technique. All he would have to do is headbut Korra and she is pretty much clinging to her life lool. Senzu beans for Korra. The only element that might prove effective against goku is maybe fire.

      That's true. So, would you put the whole Avatarverse on the same level as Piccolo, or below him, too? Btw, Raditz would absolutely slaughter the Avatarverse!

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    • Piccolo would slaughter Avatarveres

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    • That's true lmao I'd put Prime Roshi as equivalent to the Avatarverse. And Raditz would make toast out of them with ease.

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    • Goku would jus t blow up the earth with a concentrated kamehmeha wave, then he'll use instant transmission to get to the spirit world.

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    • Trying to make "power levels" for characters really doesn't make much sense in most settings.

      In the context of Avatar, Bending is supposed to be a form of martial arts.

      So would we rank Mai at 5 Ki for her knife throwing, or Tai Lee at 20 Ki for her Chi Blocking? Probably not, it doesn't make any sense. People only really seem to do it when there's magic involved.

      Also, from an anime that DOES have (rough) power levels:

      "Are you satisfied that you managed to block my blade? Are you satisfied that you put a scar on my body? Well, it means nothing. Your physical strength momentarily exceeded my own, that's all. Miracles like that do happen from time to time."

      Now, he turns out to be wrong, but I like the quote because it lampshades that there's a lot that goes into a fight. It's not like Person A always throws punches with 500 str. & Person B will always come out unscathed if they have a def. of at least 501.

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    • I agree. Iit dosent make snese. Even in dbz the idea of power levels was scaped because of it.

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    • Actually, I think Toriyama was having trouble coming up with new numbers.

      "What comes after quadrillion? Screw it, no more power levels!"

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    • @Neo

      I think you can make sense of power levels for almost any character in fiction.  Power levels do not merely calculate how much ki/energy you have, ki is a person's life force. Power levels is a measure of a fighters overall combat ability.  So it takes everything into account including weapons, which means even people like Mai and Ty lee can have their combat abilities calculated.  For example, in the beginning of dbz when Raditz made his first appearance, the scouter was introduced.  He landed near a farmer who had no martial arts experience at all nor did he have any ki attacks.  Still, Raditz was able to use his scouter to calculate his powerlevel which was at a 5.  That's actually very high for a normal human, It was only a 5 because of the gun he had.  Without it he's like a 1 or 2, which is average for humans.

      So if I wanted to rate Mai and Ty Lee's power level, I would have to go far back in the earlier part of dragonball in order to powerscale. In the beginning of the series Goku's power level was 10 and he was strong enough to lift up a vehicle with one person inside with some difficulty and he was also durable enough to survive a cliff fall as a baby.  Now we know for sure that nobody in the avatarverse, at least that we know of has the strength to lift up a satomobile and the durability to survive a fall head first to hard rock concrete from atop a cliff.  However, kyoshi in the avatar state had enough wind power to push a huge piece of land apart forming an island in the process.  But still when you think about it, you can't take that into account with overall combat ability since it didn't really do anything directly harmful to another person.   So as powerlevels go for Mai and Ty, they can't be higher than 10. I would say they are somehwere between 3-5.  

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    • Pheonixking3000 wrote:
      @Neo

      I think you can make sense of power levels for almost any character in fiction.  Power levels do not merely calculate how much ki/energy you have, ki is a person's life force. Power levels is a measure of a fighters overall combat ability.  So it takes everything into account including weapons, which means even people like Mai and Ty lee can have their combat abilities calculated.  For example, in the beginning of dbz when Raditz made his first appearance, the scouter was introduced.  He landed near a farmer who had no martial arts experience at all nor did he have any ki attacks.  Still, Raditz was able to use his scouter to calculate his powerlevel which was at a 5.  That's actually very high for a normal human, It was only a 5 because of the gun he had.  Without it he's like a 1 or 2, which is average for humans.

      So if I wanted to rate Mai and Ty Lee's power level, I would have to go far back in the earlier part of dragonball in order to powerscale. In the beginning of the series Goku's power level was 10 and he was strong enough to lift up a vehicle with one person inside with some difficulty and he was also durable enough to survive a cliff fall as a baby.  Now we know for sure that nobody in the avatarverse, at least that we know of has the strength to lift up a satomobile and the durability to survive a fall head first to hard rock concrete from atop a cliff.  However, kyoshi in the avatar state had enough wind power to push a huge piece of land apart forming an island in the process.  But still when you think about it, you can't take that into account with overall combat ability since it didn't really do anything directly harmful to another person.   So as powerlevels go for Mai and Ty, they can't be higher than 10. I would say they are somehwere between 3-5.  


      I feel like even 3-5 is being jealous, given that a gun could shoot down anyone in the Avatarverse, even Avatar State Aang. However, Avatar State I could see somewhere around 50 or even 100, because it's got a lot more raw power, like you said. I agree, however, that Master Roshi might be enough to solo Avatarverse, simply due to the fact that he can blow up the moon, something far beyond anything that we've seen in the Avatarverse. Although changing the atmosphere of the planet like Unalaatu did might count, don't you think? But I also agree that power levels are something that can be easily determined. In all honesty, though, I think that I might give the combined Avatarverse around 200 or so. How about you?

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    • @ TarrlokUltimateWaterbender

      True, nobody in avatar has the durability to take a bullet to the head with no fatal injuries.  The avatar in the avatar state and of course Vaatu are the only beings in avatar that might be capable of devastating the earth, still I don't think even the most powerful beings in the avatarverse have the power to instantly blow up a planet.  Maybe at best the avatar state has the capacity to destroy an island but that's just me being generous.  I think it would be interesting to see kid goku as an ape vs a fully realized avatar in the avatar state.  Because Goku's powerlevel when he used his great ape form for the first time was at 100.  But yea, the entire avatarverse combined?  I have no idea, it depends on the population in the world of avatar.  

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    • "I think you can make sense of power levels for almost any character in fiction."

      Well...you can't. You can barely do it in settings that actually have them.

      "Power levels do not merely calculate how much ki/energy you have, ki is a person's life force."

      I just needed a unit name.

      "Power levels is a measure of a fighters overall combat ability."

      You ever notice how we don't use a "power level" system in real life? That's because this can't be done. And it's not like we can't measure things, on the contrary, we're able to draw so many more conclusions in real life than in fiction. We can measure the average force exerted by your punches, your running speed, your cardiovascular health, your reaction time, we can measure basically any parameter we want down to the thousandths & beyond. The trouble is that there is no formula that puts all of these things together & says that, objectively, X is more powerful than Y. All you're really doing is saying, "I think X is stronger than Y, so I'll just toss out numbers for them accordingly!"

      "So it takes everything into account including weapons, which means even people like Mai and Ty lee can have their combat abilities calculated. For example, in the beginning of dbz when Raditz made his first appearance, the scouter was introduced. He landed near a farmer who had no martial arts experience at all nor did he have any ki attacks. Still, Raditz was able to use his scouter to calculate his powerlevel which was at a 5. That's actually very high for a normal human, It was only a 5 because of the gun he had. Without it he's like a 1 or 2, which is average for humans."

      But there is no real calculating involved, & that's why the DBZ power levels are wildly inconsistent. For example, Cell & Gohan dueling with Kamehamehas going at full blast did minimal damage to the environment, even as Gohan produced enough power to turn Cell's attack back, blast him into outer space, & completely vaporize his body--a body which could tank blasts strong enough to destroy planets without even flinching.

      "So as powerlevels go for Mai and Ty, they can't be higher than 10. I would say they are somehwere between 3-5."

      And this scale wouldn't make any sense. It doesn't tell you anything about how a fight with these characters would go down. Is Ty Lee agile enough to dodge Mai's attacks, or not? Is it a 50% chance? But wait, a 50% chance of dodging doesn't mean that there's a 50% chance of victory. If Mai can throw 40 attacks per minute, & Ty Lee has 10 minutes' worth of distance to close, her chances of victory are basically 0 even though you've given them the same power level.

      What's more, what happens when I adjust their "powers"? If Ty Lee is a 3 & I make her 4 times as strong, that won't put her on the same level as child Goku, again because Dragonball Z power levels are inconsistent.

      The scale is arbitrary. Sure, you can maybe say that 1 character is "more powerful" than the other, but you can't tell me what the difference between those "power levels" actually MEANS.

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    • Honestly, I'm going to hand it to kid Goku. Unless the Avatar State can somehow bloodbend during full moon nights, kid Goku stomps hard. I mean, maybe all of that waterbending of all those Avatars working together might be enough. But kid Goku's still got much, much more strength, get what I'm saying? Like, I don't see him losing, whatsoever. Do you like think that end of DB Goku could take on the Avatarverse? I think that he's fast enough to blitz and tear right through all of them like paper. And, if it's a full moon night, then he still probably wins, unless a hell of a lot bloodbenders can work together to stop him, but not unless he stomps a good bunch of them out first, which I do see as likely. I'd give kid Goku the win over Avatar State quite easily. But end of DB Goku against the Avatarverse on a full moon night could get really, really interesting, but I'm still leaning toward Goku. You?

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    • @ Neo

      "Well...you can't. You can barely do it in settings that actually have them."

      Why don't you think they make sense?  I mean later on in the series you can't really get the exact numbers, but you can at least estimate it via powerscaling based on feats accomplished.

      "You ever notice how we don't use a "power level" system in real life?"

      Actually, in a way we kind of do to some extent.  I know it isn't the same as calculating power levels, but it's kind of similar in a way.  A lot of pro sports like boxing and mma are based on the personal stats of the people involved in the fight.  You measure things like weight, height, arm reach, how many fights you've been in, ect.  All of that is taken into account when the fights are set up.  But you must keep in mind that the world of dbz is an extremely advanced world set in a fictional universe.  

      The technology on earth is far more advanced than what we have in reality by several centuries.  But even with their advance technology, they are considered primitive to what the aliens like the saiyans posess.  It's very likely that they were able to come up with some type of formula or variables that allowed them to calculate a person's overall fighting combat abilities.  The scouters were even used as a means to track dragonballs, I mean what formula in real life can we use in order to come up with a way to track snicker bars from all over the world?

      "All you're really doing is saying, "I think X is stronger than Y, so I'll just toss out numbers for them accordingly!"

      Not really, I KNOW that kid Goku can beat Mai and Tai Lee, that's an indisputable fact.

      "But there is no real calculating involved, & that's why the DBZ power levels are wildly inconsistent. For example, Cell & Gohan dueling with Kamehamehas going at full blast did minimal damage to the environment, even as Gohan produced enough power to turn Cell's attack back, blast him into outer space, & completely vaporize his body--a body which could tank blasts strong enough to destroy planets without even flinching."

      You can't always apply real world physics/mechanics to that of an anime.  For example, in real life, if a person tried to train in 10x normal gravity, they would be crushed from the inside out.  It's impossible to use gravity as a means to increase speed, muscle strength, reaction time, fighting prowess, and durabilty. Also, I don't see how Gohan dueling Cell with the kamahameha is inconsistant with powerlevels mentioned in dbz.  No colliding blasts capable of blowing up planets were shown to cause great collateral damage before. When Goku and Vegeta fought for the first time, Vegeta attempted to destroy earth with his galick gun.  Goku countered it with his kamahameha combined with Kaioken x3. During the beam struggle, there was not really much damage occuring in the surrounding environment, the only thing major that happened was those rock pillars being destroyed and a couple of shockwaves.  So the beam struggles are very consistent in terms of environmental destruction.  I mean if it worked like how it would in real life, pretty much every beam struggle alone would quite frankly blow up the planet along with the entire solar system.

      "And this scale wouldn't make any sense. It doesn't tell you anything about how a fight with these characters would go down. Is Ty Lee agile enough to dodge Mai's attacks, or not? Is it a 50% chance? But wait, a 50% chance of dodging doesn't mean that there's a 50% chance of victory. If Mai can throw 40 attacks per minute, & Ty Lee has 10 minutes' worth of distance to close, her chances of victory are basically 0 even though you've given them the same power level."

      No it doesn't tell you what would happen in the fight, but it does tell you which fighter is better in fighting ability.  And you make it seem like there is some type of gamble with the whole 50% chance stuff.  Never in dbz have the scouters tell you their powerlevel and then list the chance percentage of a person beating someone who happens to be stronger or equal.  It doesn't really need to, the power levels are remarkably accurate. the scouters said Raditz was stronger than both Goku and Piccolo combined and he was.  When Goku fought Nappa his power level at base was higher than Nappa who he beat flawlessly. Vegeta started out stronger than Goku and had the upper hand until goku powered up and his exact power level was calculated at that point too in which he began to manhandle Vegeta.  Pretty much every battle involved, the scouters were right.

      "The scale is arbitrary. Sure, you can maybe say that 1 character is "more powerful" than the other, but you can't tell me what the difference between those "power levels" actually MEANS."  

      Yes you can, power levels= overall fighting combat abilities.  

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    • "Why don't you think they make sense?"

      It's generally acknowledged that Dragonball Z is not consistent. I don't have to prove it.

      "Not really, I KNOW that kid Goku can beat Mai and Tai Lee, that's an indisputable fact."

      The number didn't tell you this, the fact that the things they can do are dramatically different did.

      "No it doesn't tell you what would happen in the fight, but it does tell you which fighter is better in fighting ability."

      This is a contradiction. Fighting ability is how you perform in a fight. If it doesn't tell you how a fight will probably go, then it doesn't tell you fighting ability.

      "Yes you can, power levels= overall fighting combat abilities."

      Okay, let's put this to the test. You said that the farmer's gun added 3 or 4 to his power level. So tell me how much different guns add to a power level, all other factors remaining equal.

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    • Pheonixking3000 wrote:
      @ Neo

      "Well...you can't. You can barely do it in settings that actually have them."

      Why don't you think they make sense?  I mean later on in the series you can't really get the exact numbers, but you can at least estimate it via powerscaling based on feats accomplished.

      "You ever notice how we don't use a "power level" system in real life?"

      Actually, in a way we kind of do to some extent.  I know it isn't the same as calculating power levels, but it's kind of similar in a way.  A lot of pro sports like boxing and mma are based on the personal stats of the people involved in the fight.  You measure things like weight, height, arm reach, how many fights you've been in, ect.  All of that is taken into account when the fights are set up.  But you must keep in mind that the world of dbz is an extremely advanced world set in a fictional universe.  

      The technology on earth is far more advanced than what we have in reality by several centuries.  But even with their advance technology, they are considered primitive to what the aliens like the saiyans posess.  It's very likely that they were able to come up with some type of formula or variables that allowed them to calculate a person's overall fighting combat abilities.  The scouters were even used as a means to track dragonballs, I mean what formula in real life can we use in order to come up with a way to track snicker bars from all over the world?

      "All you're really doing is saying, "I think X is stronger than Y, so I'll just toss out numbers for them accordingly!"

      Not really, I KNOW that kid Goku can beat Mai and Tai Lee, that's an indisputable fact.

      "But there is no real calculating involved, & that's why the DBZ power levels are wildly inconsistent. For example, Cell & Gohan dueling with Kamehamehas going at full blast did minimal damage to the environment, even as Gohan produced enough power to turn Cell's attack back, blast him into outer space, & completely vaporize his body--a body which could tank blasts strong enough to destroy planets without even flinching."

      You can't always apply real world physics/mechanics to that of an anime.  For example, in real life, if a person tried to train in 10x normal gravity, they would be crushed from the inside out.  It's impossible to use gravity as a means to increase speed, muscle strength, reaction time, fighting prowess, and durabilty. Also, I don't see how Gohan dueling Cell with the kamahameha is inconsistant with powerlevels mentioned in dbz.  No colliding blasts capable of blowing up planets were shown to cause great collateral damage before. When Goku and Vegeta fought for the first time, Vegeta attempted to destroy earth with his galick gun.  Goku countered it with his kamahameha combined with Kaioken x3. During the beam struggle, there was not really much damage occuring in the surrounding environment, the only thing major that happened was those rock pillars being destroyed and a couple of shockwaves.  So the beam struggles are very consistent in terms of environmental destruction.  I mean if it worked like how it would in real life, pretty much every beam struggle alone would quite frankly blow up the planet along with the entire solar system.

      "And this scale wouldn't make any sense. It doesn't tell you anything about how a fight with these characters would go down. Is Ty Lee agile enough to dodge Mai's attacks, or not? Is it a 50% chance? But wait, a 50% chance of dodging doesn't mean that there's a 50% chance of victory. If Mai can throw 40 attacks per minute, & Ty Lee has 10 minutes' worth of distance to close, her chances of victory are basically 0 even though you've given them the same power level."

      No it doesn't tell you what would happen in the fight, but it does tell you which fighter is better in fighting ability.  And you make it seem like there is some type of gamble with the whole 50% chance stuff.  Never in dbz have the scouters tell you their powerlevel and then list the chance percentage of a person beating someone who happens to be stronger or equal.  It doesn't really need to, the power levels are remarkably accurate. the scouters said Raditz was stronger than both Goku and Piccolo combined and he was.  When Goku fought Nappa his power level at base was higher than Nappa who he beat flawlessly. Vegeta started out stronger than Goku and had the upper hand until goku powered up and his exact power level was calculated at that point too in which he began to manhandle Vegeta.  Pretty much every battle involved, the scouters were right.

      "The scale is arbitrary. Sure, you can maybe say that 1 character is "more powerful" than the other, but you can't tell me what the difference between those "power levels" actually MEANS."  

      Yes you can, power levels= overall fighting combat abilities.  

      Tbh, I can't even see Narutoverse beating end of DB Goku, how about you? I feel like not even Narutoverse's power in total can equal that. You?

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    • I believe Raava is what makes the reincarnation possible. 

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    • and also what allows the avatar to be able to recall his/her past lives.

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    • Interesting point, Ldeth.

      Intel, where do you think that fits in with your theory? Could it be that Raava is the reason the avatar reincarnates? Maybe that excludes others from reincarnation?

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    • yeah that's what i've been thinking...unless of course everyone reincarnates.

      basically, the way i've been figuring, either:

      a) everyone reincarnates, and raava is what allows the avatar to remember his past lives. this would make sense b/c it seems that iroh has become enlightened. and yangchen talked about enlightenment, which also seems to be an AN think.

      b) nobody reincarnates, but raava allows the avatar to reincarnate and remember his past lives. this would also make sense b/c when the avatar dies in the avatar state, (aka raava dies with the avatar) the cycle stops. but if the avatar isn't in the avatar state, the body's death doesn't cause raava to die, which forces the human half to stay alive as well, and find another body to live on in. also makes sense b/c of "the southern air temple," in which katara said the avatar reincarnates, and sokka blew that off as nonsense.

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    • Sokka also didn't believe in Spirits. Then, everything changed when the Hei Bai attacked.

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    • So, both being equally plausible?

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    • "then, everything changed when the hei bai attacked."

      LOL. although it wasn't that he didnt' believe in spirits, he just didn't think much of them. kinda like his attitude towards waterbending/bending, as seen in the first avatar scene ever.

      @snarky

      yeah, i think both are plausible. until we know if everyone reincarnates, then i don't think we'll have an answer.

      good grief we need an answer on this stuff.

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    • I think that you have all been a little off from the theme of the thread :P jk

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    • Neo Bahamut wrote:
      "Why don't you think they make sense?"

      It's generally acknowledged that Dragonball Z is not consistent. I don't have to prove it.

      "Not really, I KNOW that kid Goku can beat Mai and Tai Lee, that's an indisputable fact."

      The number didn't tell you this, the fact that the things they can do are dramatically different did.

      "No it doesn't tell you what would happen in the fight, but it does tell you which fighter is better in fighting ability."

      This is a contradiction. Fighting ability is how you perform in a fight. If it doesn't tell you how a fight will probably go, then it doesn't tell you fighting ability.

      "Yes you can, power levels= overall fighting combat abilities."

      Okay, let's put this to the test. You said that the farmer's gun added 3 or 4 to his power level. So tell me how much different guns add to a power level, all other factors remaining equal.

      My favorite example.  If Frieza has a powerlevel of 1 million.  Just get half a million farmers to attack him at the same time.  Numbers don't determine fights.  Its a little joke

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    • Well, since Korra was  able to enter the Avatar State even after losing her past lives, I guess it's just Raava.

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    • An anonymous contributor
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