Talk:Waterbending

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Archive 1 This is the talk page for the article "Waterbending". This space is for discussing changes to the article. General discussion about the subject belongs to the forums. Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. Please remember to stay civil and sign all of your comments with four tildes (~~~~). This article is currently rated Featured and A-class on the Avatar Wiki grading system.

Contents 1 Condensation 2 mistake 3 Ice Weapons 4 Compression disagreement 5 New move. Ice Swimming

[edit] Condensation

I think we should change this to the way it was before someone said that Katara pulled water out of the air. I don't think that's what happened. She was clearly shown pulling water out of the grass, and th later water is either Hama's, or it came from offscreen, implying she pulled it out of the trees. Puragus - Talk 04:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually it was all of them. She drew water out of the grass below, out of the trees around and even used the water Hama used against her. The only times she drew water out of the air was when she did not need such a large quantity of it. - Zero - Talk 09:11, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

So you agree that the information on that section is inaccurate? Puragus - Talk 16:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Believe me, I watched that scene obsessively more times than I can remember, pausing and rewinding ad nauseum, Katara is pulling the water from the air, it was kinda hard to know for sure first, cause the fullscreen at youtube isn't the best, but even if it's not on fullscreen, you can tell it comes from the air, the water doesn't come from "out" of the screen, you can see it appearing at Hama's either side without there being a tree there, and if it came from a tree, we'd see the something withering, which also has a specific sound cue. Omnibender - Talk 21:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I'll take your word for it. But if that's the case, then I should mention something else: this is the last time in the series that she is seen clearly using water from the air that effectively. It's possible she used it other times, like I've thought she augmented her water-pouch water with in in DOBS, but I could be wrong, and we can debate that for hours without getting a clear answer. This is the last time when its clear that she used it, and it occurred during the full moon. The disparity between when Hama used it during the day and when Katara used it at night implies that it can only be used that effectively during a full moon. We should mention that. Puragus - Talk 22:39, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I did see the trees wither (and burst) as Katara and Hama drew water from them. But if you say so, then I must be mistaken. I'll recheck. But It might take a while. I'm trying to watch the whole series in order and have currently got up to the Season 2 Finale. Also the Waterbending Enhancing Capabilities of the Full Moon has already been discussed. Many Times if I might add. - Zero - Talk 06:43, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It's very hard to notice, the fact the scene takes place during nighttime makes it even harder, at first I thought it came from trees as well, but then I checked, the scene immediately before, there are no trees by Hama's side, what I though was a tree Katara extracted water from was in fact a background tree that is just part of the background. Omnibender - Talk 14:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Dont forget, I have the episodes in DVD Format. I'll check it soon enough. I'll also be sure to check carefully. Dont worry about it. - Zero - Talk 03:13, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

That debate about whether or not Katara pulled the two jets of water out of thin air to attack Hama from side on has just been solved. Sorry to prove you wrong, but if you didn't notice just before that 4 second scene showing Hama spin through the air, Katara had just blocked a massive water bullet sent her way by Hama. You see the water droplets in slow motion and then Katara re-uses them to attack Hama side-ways. If it was that easy to pull water from the air as you suggested, why would they bother with plants? Duh!

The water doesn't immediatly disappears, in the video, it's clear that it appears out of thin air, if she had used the droplets, they'd be visible the same way as in The Southern Raiders when Katara stops the rain and then collects it. Not the same thing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Look, it's very obvious that you are trying to prove that waterbending is the best out of the four styles but they are all balanced! No one element can exist without the other and they are "all parts of the same whole" - Guru Pathik. That scene which may appear to show Katara pulling an impossibly large amount of water from the air to attack Hama wasn't very well illustrated; but it is still obvious that all Katara was doing was recycling that water bullet and using it on Hama. When Katara blocks Hama's attack, the scene enters slow-motion for dramatic effect and the water droplets are floating right in front of the two waterbenders' faces (reflecting them by the way). By the time Katara jumps forward and attacks, where do you think the water is? That's right, closer to Hama and high in the air (except for those droplets that already fell to the ground). That is why you don't see the water directly in front of Katara or Hama until the former uses it as a weapon - AGAIN! Please, just watch the scene and keep in mind of what you have just read. I am 500% that I am right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

I'm not, a Bending Art is only as strong as its users. If it was the dropplets, we'd still see them in the air, if they made sure we'd see the dropplets when Katara halts the water bullet, they'd make sure we saw Katara reusing them, just because Hama took a small quantity of water from the air before, it doesn't mean it's impossible to remove a larger quantity, in fact, the amount of water Katara uses to spin Hama is less then the water bullet. Katara has always been an overpowered character, I mean, besting the creator of a technique mere minutes after learning it? Besides the "I won't let you hurt these people", the point of that battle was to show that Katara did learn from Hama, and was using the techniques she learned against her, which would include the getting water from air. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:06, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry but you are very mistaken. What you just said above has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand here. Like I said two messages ago, Katara used the same water that was fired at her by Hama and the scene does not portray this fact clearly enough because the animators thought the source of this water very obvious. I'm not saying that the amount of water used to attack Hama with was the entire amount of water Hama herself had originally aimed at Katara. It was just a portion of this, but it was enough to send the old hag flying. Now, as for whether or not it would be possible to condense that much water from the air look at this fact:
The Earth's atmosphere (or air) is a layer of gases surrounding the planet Earth that is retained by the Earth's gravity. It has a mass of about five quadrillion metric tons. Dry air contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases. Air also contains a variable amount of water vapor, on average around 1%.
That was just a small extract from a wikipedia page called 'Earth's Atmosphere'. This should prove to you that with only an average of 1% of water present in the air, that it is impossible for Katara or any other waterbender to condense that amount of water out of the air in such a short space of time. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it would be completely pointless to kill trees and grasses when you could just as easily get the same amount of water from the air in front of you. Yes, this episode tries to outline the way Katara has learned from Hama but why would Hama herself not be shown condensing water from the air if she could produce so much this way? She can't because there is not enough water in the air to do so!
If I still haven't convinced you think about this for a second. Fire and Water are elemental opposites just like Earth and Air. If you were to just think of the elements in these two groups you will see a pattern. Air has a particular advantage over earth (not saying that air is better or vice versa) because it is essentially everywhere and can be used in almost any environment(the exception being under water). In other words, it is very difficult to seperate an airbender from his/her element. An earth bender does not have that luxury. Without the presence of earth, an earthbender has no 'bendable' material. So, one of these two elements relies entirely on the proximity of the bender to the source (earth) while the other does not (air). The same goes for the relationship between water and fire. Firebenders are the equivalent to Airbenders because they are the only two that can use their elements pretty much anywhere. Waterbenders and earthbenders rely heavily on the environment to give them their bendable elements. My point is that waterbending cannot be classed with firebending and airbending the way you are trying to because that would make the four elements uneven with earthbening being alone in its environmental requirements; the Avatar world is all about balance. Think of what happened in "the Runaway" when Katara and Toph were put in a wooden prison. Water was only pulled in small concentrations out of Katara's sweat to free them but that counts as a source that has water in its liquid state. Think of how easy it would have been for Aang or Zuko to have broken out of that cell. Do you understand what I'm getting at here? Water cannot be fired from the palm of a bender's hand like air and fire can and hence Katara could not have possibly produced that amount of water out of the air to knock down Hama. It was RECYCLED! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

TMIx10. - Zero - Talk 14:32, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Zero, can I just ask you what the heck 'TMIx10' means? Unless it's actually part of your name, I have no idea what it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

• T = Too
• M = Much
• I = Information
• x = Times
• 10 = 10(Ten)

LOL. - Zero - Talk 06:52, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah okay, I know it's a lot but I'm just trying to prove a point and believe it or not that was the short version. I just hate it when people are fed the wrong information and that is exactly what is happening on this topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

Instead of writing like this try writing in paragraphs or bullet format. Makes for much better understanding. And I've noticed you're still not signing properly. Just an observation. BTW there is no wrong information in this article. We are very careful on that matter. Only info revealed in the show or the books are written here. Everything else goes to the Fanon wiki. - Zero - Talk 17:20, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

There is a point in pulling water from air: element of surprise. If Katara had took the time to remove water from trees or grass, not only would Hama have more time to react, but also she'd know where the attack was coming from, there is a point in doing it. If the writers and animators didn't show us Katara reclycing the water, we're not to assume she did, going to Iroh.org screencap gallery, see screencaps 561 to 572, it's in the 29th page of the episode, you can clearly see that the dropplets just vanish and that the water appears from Hama's sides, there's no grouping of dropplets or anything like that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

If you hadn't notice, Hama was already suprised by Katara's waterbending prowess when she effortlessly halted a powerful blast of water and how would it be less of a suprise to just reform the airborne water droplets? You are running out of ideas for an argument because there is none! Katara re-used Hama's water and even if you freeze-frame and look at the scene the water does not just magically appear out of thin air. What you see is a brief moment in time when the droplets are forming together again! Don't you think that for such an amazing feat (i.e. pulling that amount of liquid water out of the gaseous water in the air), done in the very first time in the series would be shown in greater detail? Come on! It cannot be done! Another fact to prove you're mistaken is that the series creators had to create the convenient event of rain when Katara faced her mother's murderer, Yon Ra. Don't even think about telling me Katara caused the rain because then you are delusional. How the hell is a person, thousands of feet below the clouds supposed to summon water like that? She would have to be an Avatar! If she could do what you say she could, why wouldn't this almighty waterbender just fire huge solidified vapour at her enemy instead of creating a dome of rainwater?
Answer: SHE CAN'T!
The whole point in Hama's teachings about vapour use is that she could only produce enough to cover the tips of her fingers. It would be like waving a cold glass rod through the air on a really hot day and fogging it up. I've given you an encyclopedia's (just a metaphor) version of events here over the past week! You can't just shoo it away and pretend it doesn't exist! So, the question remains: What are we going to do about this bias in the webpage? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

There is no bias. Just because Waterbending has more moves doesn't mean that Waterbending is more powerful. It just means that having more moves is the nature of the bending art. Since there is no bias, there is no need to change the page. Neither is there a need to shorten the page, because it is well within what is considered to be an acceptable length. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar ^{Talk} 10:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Let me tell you why she could. First of all, it was night, with full moon, Katara, who already is an overpowered character is stronger because of the moon. They were in the Fire Nation, which according to the Avatar World map is roughly in the Equator, the most humid area of the planet, then they were in a forest, with many trees, trees which evapotranspire, making the air even more humid, the taking in account that nights are generally colder than days, the water vapor in the air would be accessible, since the lower the temperature, the more together water molecules become. Hama got that water during the day, and as a demonstration, there was no need for it to be an awesome attack, it was an example. I have freeze framed that scene more times than I can remember, if what you're saying is true, I think I'd remember seeing the dropplets coming together, but they didn't, the moment the focus shifts from Hama to Katara after she parries her attack, all the dropplets are gone, saying she recycled them without us seeing it would be nothing short of speculation. During the episode, it was established that Bloodbending is the ultimate waterbending technique, if that's the case, any other technique is easier, which would include the massive condensation. Also during the fight, Katara fought Hama using the very techniques she taught her, and in that instance, condensation is the only technique which fits the effects seen, given the observed conditions. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The only reason the creator's had the full moon in place on that particular night in that particular episode (love the way you ignored my argument about the "Southern Raiders" episdoe)was for Katara to learn bloodbending. Plus, how do you know the specific position in the Fire Nation was on the equator? Even if that were true, there would NOT be that kind of environment there. What about the setting said "tropical" to you? Even so, if there was that much water vapour in the air around them at that time it would appear as fog which Katara could have manipulated to an extent - remember in "the Drill" when Katara used steam issuing from a broken pipe to encase a guard in ice? You're also forgetting one crucial fact, the creators are not scientists. They would most definitely not consider the weather conditions and geographics of Katara's location just to let her air-waterbend. All that stuff about water molecules being drawn closer together in cold temperatures was most likely not on their concern list. By the way, that would mean FOG! I've said a million times and I'll say it again, the water droplets were airborne already and if you check again, you will NOT see:

1) Empty space of air 2) Water droplets condense 3) Hama is attacked

What you will see is:

1) Liquid water briefly floating in the air 2) Water collects to form two large masses 3) Hama is attacked

I guarantee you 170% that that is what happens. It is a really fast transition between the camera angles of Katara to Hama, but just above the latter's head you can clearly see liquid water. Also, play the part from Katara's blocking of the "water bullet" to Hama being attacked and you can hear the rushing sound of the water which never fully disappears meaning that the water never fully made it to the ground. As for the point of the fight, I've already explained enough about it. Scroll up and re-read some things that I've already written. With all due respect, I ask you to please stop persisting with your argument and change this webpage. You have given nothing substantial to base your theory on apart from one scene from one episode that was rather poorly illustrated. I am more for blaming the animators for this mix-up than yourself, but this is just starting to become a vicious cycle. Unless the creators come out and say that "Katara did strike Hama to the ground with evaporated water in that one scene", then you have nothing more to argue. At every turn I've been able to disprove your ideas so just let your barrier down for a while and think about this debate without an opinion. I must have at least convinced some people by now, why not you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

Alright. I tried beating around the bush, twice, but it didn't work. Now I have no chioice. Sign your posts please, that is the standard etiquette of this wiki. Both for IPs and users. If you do not, not only will you be considered rude but your arguments will unconsiously have less meaning as it will be akin to writing an anonymous letter (A most vindictive technique). Plus, you do not have to write that much to make your point. Stick to the core of your arguments, otherwise most of the data you wish to communicate will be ignored as a result of normal human nature. - Zero - Talk 06:12, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

That being said, We have repeatedly stated that there is no best bending. The Four elements, Air, Water, Earth and Fire are equal. Each bending has its advantages and disadvantages, which make them equal. The only thing that could make an element stronger or weaker is the capability of the bender. Nothing else. The fact that you keep on saying that we are trying to make waterbending be shown as the best element is completely groundless. So what if there is more data on waterbending? It only means that we were able to collect more data on it. If you feel that bad about it then instead of trying to reduce waterbending data, try increasing the data for the other three bendings. However the data must be legitimate. Thats part of the rules. - Zero - Talk 06:12, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

And, about the condensation thing. Give us the time frame for the proof you are giving. Some of us have it in DVD quality. They can check and give their views. - Zero - Talk 06:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how the time-frames I have given aren't clear enough. I've been very specific and still stand by what I have been saying. If you need all the proof in a nutshell then here are my points of reference:
"the Puppetmaster" (Season 3) - I can't give you frame numbers for the obvious reason, but there is a scene towards the end of the episode just seconds before Aang and Sokka arrive to meet where Katara and Hama are duelling. In this scene, Katara performs a move that some believe to be condensing water out of thin air in large enough quantities to attack Hama with from two sides. My argument is that Katara is not condensing water out of the air, but rather re-using the airborne liquid droplets that she had just splattered into the air after a waterbending attack from Hama. - Signed One (Happy now Zero?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

Oh, and by the way I have already added my input to the other three elements but for some reason, no one seems to want to change those. I tried changing waterbending and it reverted to its inital stage. I must have spent an hour reconstructing it and it was all for nothing. Now tell me that that is not biased? Someone has specifically placed some round-the-clock automatic editing thing on it and now it won't change! What's the deal? As for writing too much, I've tried keeping it short but people like Omnibender keep questioning me and I have no choice but to write and write. - Signed One —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

Ok, let me see. I didn't respond to the Southern Raiders argument cause the water used there is much bigger than what Katara used against Hama, if the writers decided to use rain, it's their choice, they could have decided for a nearby river, but they went for rain. To show Katara can't take that much water from air or for coolness effect? The Fire Nation is indeed in the Equator by the world map we see in the opening sequence and in some episodes. It doesn't need to be tropical to be humid, water composition of the atmosphere can be one thing, but it varies from place to place, specially if you consider trade winds. Your fog argument doesn't hold up cause in places with less humidity such as temperate areas (like Europe), there's also fog. And even if it's not a tropical area, the Fire Nation, is composed of islands, and the one Hama's town is in (according to the dot corresponding to the episode in Nick.com) is a small one, which means it also gets humidity from the ocean, carried by air currents. The steam Katara used, as you said yourseld came from a pipe, thereby making it pressurized. The creators don't need to be scientists to figure things like these out, I'm certain neither one of us is a cientist, and yet were having this discussion about weather conditions, I see no reason for Mike and Bryan not to have it as well. From the screenshots I told you before: Katara blasts water bullet, water does indeed gets by Hama's sides and back, dropplets in Katara's and Hama's surroundings, scene changes to Katara and in the gap of time it takes for her to jump, no dropplets are to be seen, and it should, considering the angle, something like to Hama's left, going from near Katara to just behind Hama. When the focus goes to Hama water appears out of thin air, coming from a large area around her knocking her down. The fact the water "converges" in the areas at Hama's side is consistent with water being pulled from a greater area by waterbending. The volume of water used in it is certainly smaller than what Katara and Hama were using at just before the focus shift. I still go by my opinion, from what I see, in the time it took Katara to jump, that water just fell to the ground, and my already mentioned "beat her with her own moves" argument you already know about. You can't say I have given "nothing substantial", I have given as many arguments as you, as well as providing motives to why I think your arguments are wrong, the same way you did with mine. I see you changed the article, so it matches your opinion, so in order to prevent us from needless edit reverts, I'll uncomment the parts we disagree on for now, I'll leave the mention in Si Wong Desert and the Puppetmaster, but leave out which part of the episode it was shown, we both agree that it was shown in that episode, so it's not something we disagree. I do, however, agree that we could use more input, it seems you and I are doing most of the talking, more voices would be appreciated. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes we could definitely use some extra hands on this topic but here we go again anyway. I apologize in advance for these two paragraphs' length but they are more than necessary, please don't be discouraged to read on. Now to Omnibender. That whole thing about the Southern Raiders episode that you said made no sense because you don't give reason behind why they didn't use water from the air, just why they used rain instead of a river. But then, why would Katara need either if she can just condense water vapor? Obviously it was a combination of the 'coolness' factor and the need for a proper water source because Katara just cannot produce that much water. Your view was that the amount of water Katara used against Hama was far less than what she used against Yon Ra, but your argument dictates that that doesn't mean anything - that apparently, Katara could pull entire oceans out of the sky if she wanted too. Forget the fog thing specifically, all I was saying is that there would need to be vast amounts of water in the air for such a thing to be plausible - whether there be fog in the air or steam from a pressurized pipe. There was no need to research meterology and tell me about climates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

Your problem about this whole thing is that you are thinking too much about every single possibility and probablity to why this happens and why this isn't like that; in that case, we could argue this for years and never get anywhere. You aren't trying to find answers to a well thought-out question, but trying to prove that waterbending is capable of something it isn't just because it is your ideal. Take a breather and try to remember your first impression of the scene when you first saw Katara fight Hama. Back then before you started searching for answers to what you hoped was right and constantly pausing and rewinding the scene as if an animated show can possibly provide every single detail. I don't know about you but what is implied, or at least what I was brought to believe is that Katara just simply re-used the water thrown in the air - otherwise why slow down the scene and focus on that giant splash? It is what is inferred that counts here and usually, that is what is correct. Did you know that studies, real studies I mean, have indicated that for say school students it is often the case that the first answer that comes into their heads for an exam is the right choice? That is the same thing here, what is implied to a viewer watching the episode for the first time is that Katara re-used the water. That is the right choice! That is the solution to this problem! Don't forget my other point I made a while ago about Fire and Air being the only two elements that can be 'made' seemingly from nothing i.e. the only types that can be fired out of the palm of the bender's hand. - One —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

Well, here I am. Firstly, "One", if you want to sign by name, create a user name. I believe there's a link to that page from the message we left on your user page when you first joined. Having gotten that over with...

There is no reason why Katara cannot pull water from air. The scene even shows that. Remember that the Fire Nation sits on the equator. Regions close the equator are humid. Now, considering Katara's natural prowess at waterbending, combined with the factor of the full moon and the humidity of the air, things suddenly become much more possible. Remember that there is no full moon factor when Katara was facing off with Yon Rha later on.

Really, you're trying to find ways to explain how Katara could not have pulled water from the air around her. You don't want Waterbending to be as powerful as it looks. The simple fact to be considered is that Waterbending is at its highest level during the full moon. Like Firebending during the Comet. It is very powerful. In the hands of powerful Waterbender, much can be accomplished. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar ^{Talk} 10:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

First of all, it's good to see a new face (so to speak). Second of all I'm still considering whether or not signing up to this site would be worth it seeing as no one seems to be paying attention to what I'm getting at. Thirdly, the creators would probably never have even considered the geographic location of the island and then relate it to the air moisture content. You guys still don’t get it do you? When we’re talking water vapor, we’re talking extremely minute concentrations here. We are talking at the molecular level. The power of the waterbender has nothing to do with it even with the full-moon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

What is Katara supposed to bend if there isn’t enough water in the air? Are you forgetting that in the ‘Southern Raiders’ episode, prior to Katara’s confrontation with Yon Rha, there was a full moon? Katara still bent water from other sources while infiltrating the southern raider ship and communications tower – not the air! If there really was that much water vapor in the air (i.e. enough for Katara to produce two huge blasts) during “the Puppetmaster”, how could the island’s inhabitants even breathe? It would have to be a tropical rainforest with that amount of water in the air. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

I said that before and it was just waved away. What I’ve also said before (twice now) is that fire and air are the only two elements that can be shot out of the palm of a bender’s hand. Katara can’t just waving her fingers around and condense a bunch of water particles into one big stream of water! Let me get one thing perfectly straight, Hama is the only waterbender in the entire series to be seen condensing water vapor out of thin air. Even though she is such a powerful bender, she only pulled enough water out to cover her fingers and that took quite a lot of time. The only way condensation could be used to good effect would be to replace Katara’s little sweat technique. WHY bother with the plants if Hama and Katara could just as easily (probably even easier) pull water from the air? Remember what I wrote in my last “entry” about that whole inference thing? You know, the first impression being the correct one in these cases? Well that still applies. - One —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

Is this guy deaf or something? Hey! Sign your comments by putting ~~~~ at the end and not by writing made up names like Balance or One. Furthermore, This isn't Microsoft Word. So do not use five spaces for a new paragraph. Seriously messes up the post. Also by time frames I meant like 8:00 - 8:30 (Translation: 8 minutes and 00 Seconds to 8 minutes and 300 seconds). We can then examine that time frame extensively to see if there is any credibility in what you say. BTW I know what gave you the idea of using One. Pseudo-Copy Cat. - Zero - Talk 13:19, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Plus if you don't have the DVDs then go to youtube or megavideo.com. Find and see the episodes there and note the time frames then. - Zero - Talk 13:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Look, just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we're not listening to you or respecting your view. If we thought you were just crap, we wouldn't be sitting here patiently having this pleasant discussion, trying to answer all of your arguments. We would have simply ignored you and delibrately gotten you bored. We haven't done that. So I would fully appreciate you signing up. Trust me, debate is good. We need more of it. :)

Back to the topic. The Waterbenders are only unstoppably powerful when the full moon is actually up in the sky. Not so when Katara is facing off with Yon Rha. Yes so when Katara duels Hama. This, combined with the effects of humidity (can't you see they're in a forest - water hangs everywhere in forests in tropical areas!), combined with Katara's prowess, is the reason why she appears to draw water out of thin air. Take out any of those three factors, and Katara could probably not take water from the air, which is why she has never done it before, or since.

Now, the humidity is perfectly reasonable. At 90% relative humidity at 35 degrees Celsius, there is 35ml of water per kilogram of air. Considering the size of the forest and the distance from which Katara could possibly draw water considering the full moon, it is quite reasonable to say that she could draw quite a few litres from not too far away. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar ^{Talk} 13:57, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Ahem, what do you mean by "only powerful during the full moon". The correct wording would be "A waterbenders bending ability is at it's peak during the full moon". That's what you were trying to say, right? Other than that, You tell him 888. - Zero - Talk 14:01, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I realised that mistake as soon as I saved, hence the addition of "unstoppably"... :S Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar ^{Talk} 14:04, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Ahem. Can you really say that? What if a waterbender and a firebender were fighting and there was a full moon and Sozoin's Comet. LOL. - Zero - Talk 14:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. I'm not sure :P. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar ^{Talk} 14:13, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Exacta. - Zero - Talk 14:14, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Zero, as much as I appreciate your support on this debate, I'm afraid you might be exceeding yourself a bit, a few paragraphs above, there's no need for "is this guy deaf or something", pardon me if I'm wrong, but there seems to be a bit too much emotion in your words, again, if that's not the case, forgive me. Back to the debate, the "first answer usually right", it's not something absolute. You asked me to think back to what I thought it was when I first saw it, before the pausing and analyzing routine. My first impression was that Katara had pulled water from trees at Hama's sides, possibly because the quality of the video, it wasn't bad, but since then I've seen it in better quality. Only after the P&A I noticed that what I thought were trees were just shadows, until you put forward the idea of Katara recycling the water from the attack Hama directed at her, that idea had never crossed my mind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:13, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry Omni But I asked the guy to properly sign twice and I've been taught that you should speak politely twice and then become firm. The guy is not listening and he's committing a variation of sock-puppetry over other discussions. See Talk:Airbending: the "Pure Expression" Section. Although I must admit that recycling the water is a good idea. - Zero - Talk 03:41, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

To Zero, I just solved the problem about the whole signing names thing and I left you a message in that same section in Airbending that you just described with all the details. I'm glad someone has considered the idea that Katara recycled the water a good one but I really do think that it is more than just an idea. To 888, I don't know where you got that little piece of info but I'm sure that the episode in question showed no sign of the temperature of the air being 35 degrees celsius so that means that the whole 35ml of water per kilogram of air thing kind of went out the window. I'm sure in such cases though, it still would not be enough to pull as much water out of the air as people seem to think Katara did in the "Puppetmaster". If There was no giant splash of water before that scene takes place, I would agree with you in a heartbeat that Katara must have pulled it from the air but as it is there... It just can't happen, only firebending and airbending can be used in that kind of way i.e. without picking it up from a another source (which I think is a great disadvantage with water and earth). I honestly don't know what else I can give you to back up my argument because I have given almost everything I can think of and yet we are going around in circles - this must be the third time we've discussed water moisture. All I want is for those couple of sentences that imply that the greatest weakness of waterbending can be completely overcome, to be edited and I'll leave the subject alone.--Yin&Yang 04:55, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Temperature in the tropics is normally around 35 degrees Celsius in the summer and it gets hotter closer to the equator. I know this because I live in the tropics. And since it's an island and therefore the sea is close therefore the humidity should be high. But waterbending is bending water itself so it really shouldn't matter what state it is in. As long as the bender is properly disciplined he/she can extract as much from the surroundings as he/she wants. So long as the water exists in the air. But in case of the captured waterbenders they were kept in prisons with dry air, devoid of moisture, pumped in. If there was no living being with water there then they wouldn't have been able to overcome the weakness. Oh and signing doesn't just work with users but with IPs as well. Your IP address gets stamped, in case you are not signed in, along with the time of postage. Two very important elements of conversation here. - Zero - Talk 05:20, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

So are you saying that I can sign without being logged in? Also, seeing as you said you live in the tropics, would it be alright if you told me which country you are writing from? Just curious. Hope that doesn't sound too borderline-stalkerish. Aside from that, I need to know if you believe that Katara could only bend water from the air in that one particular instance seen in the "puppetmaster" episode. If so, then you can at least agree with me on the fact that the waterbending page doesn't mention any of these special circumstances when it refers to Hama and Katara's fight. All it implies is that there are no problems in regards to water sources as a waterbender can just pull it directly from the air. You said that it shouldn't matter what state the water is in, as long as the bender is properly disciplined they can condense water from the air. This contradicts what it says on the wiki page "the Final Agni Kai" when Katara is about to battle Azula. This is a direct quote: 'With Zuko out of action, Katara was forced to face a crazed and violent Azula alone, but was badly outmatched when Azula deprived her of any source of water. Katara took cover while Azula taunted the duo, and searched desperately for water.' Surely, if Katara needed water she could have just pulled it from the air - being in the Fire Nation and everything (sorry about the sarcastic tone but I couldn't help it, lol).Yin&Yang 07:01, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Have I managed to convince anyone yet? If you guys have any questions about my line of argument, please feel free to ask me and I'll provide you with any information you need.--Yin&Yang 09:26, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Zero, I'm aware of the signing under other names in other pages, but I feel I should remind you that as sysops, more than all other members, we're to have patience, and be polite at all times, no matter how hard it is, you can be firm without being rude, the list of what admins are in on going discussions, while not yet officially implemented, should be observed at all times. Back to the debate, I don't know the exact amount of water in the air, and I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I live in Rio de Janeiro, within walking distance to the beach, and I can assure you, the air is quite humid, and the weather is hot, very hot. To use a Carioca expression: O Rio só tem duas estações, verão e inferno. This translates to "Rio has only two seasons, summer and hell", it's a word play because the words for winter and hell are very similar (inverno and inferno, respectively). For a more concrete example, there are years in which at noon during winter, temperature reaches 42ºC in the shade, which combined with the humidity, results in the aforementioned hell. My only beef with the recycling of water is that in the scenes between the water bullet and the spinning of Hama, we're shown an empty space, the water from the attack just vanished, you said yourself that if it was something big, they'd animate it properly, well the same things would go for the recyling of water, from the angle shown, if it was recylcing, we'd be able to see Katara reusing the water and say she did it beyond any reasonable doubt. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:00, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Wow, you know I've always wanted to go to Rio. I don't know all that much about it but I've heard it is very rich in culture and that the scenery there itself is beautiful. I thought that phrase about the two seasons was hilarious! That is very clever. Anyway, I’m starting to think that the whole climate thing is based on too much assumption. Let’s not forget that the avatar universe is based on Asian culture very heavily; Asia itself is significantly distant from the equator. It doesn’t seem likely for an Asian setting to be based on the real-world setting of places like Rio. Besides, not all islands and countries on the equator are steaming hot with high humidity every day. There is far too much speculation involved with this. If all you have a problem with is the water apparently disappearing after Katara splatters it then here is my solution for you. Although we have previously discussed it, when Katara blocked that water blast from Hama the scene enters slow-motion and we get that close up of Katara’s smug look and Hama’s terrified one while we see the droplets moving slowly in mid air. As an animator you would say to yourself in this case: “If the water is heading in Hama’s general direction during the slow-motion after Katara splattered it, then by the time the scene pans out to Hama in real-time, the water would be further from Katara and much closer to Hama.” This is why you cannot see the water droplets in those few split seconds between the exiting of slow-motion and Katara counter-attacking. To comment on your previous comment, why would the animators want to focus more on Katara recycling the water compared to condensing it when they have already shown countless times before that a waterbender recycles water. Might I also point out that the animators of this show aren't perfect? I can think of many other misleading scenes that don't appear to show enough information. As an example consider the second-last episode of the entire series. There is one particular scene that made me say, "hang on a minute". When Toph, Suki and Sokka try to board one of Fire Lord Ozai's airships the scene doesn't match the background. Toph uses earthbending to propel herself and the other two to land on the "nearest airship" which appears to be right in front of them. However, once they successfully land on one of the ships' lower bridge-type-things (for lack of a better phrase), the camera pans out and somehow the airship is automatically hundreds of feet away from the land it just departed. It just doesn't make sense, so there is the proof that the show can make mistakes. Now have I convinced you? Please say yes! I swear I'm not the type of person to gloat so please don't think that I am trying to compete for glory or anything stupid like that. I'm just trying to help. --Yin&Yang 01:01, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if you've read my last comment yet but I did a little research and found these couple of sentences describing Katara's and Hama's fight that reinforce my argument: "The two begin to battle, each drawing water from the grass and trees surrounding them, and it quickly becomes obvious that they are nearly equally matched. But when Katara finally begins to get the upper hand, Aang and Sokka arrive to assist her". This info came directly from the "Katara" wiki page. Note the lack of mentioning anything about drawing water from the air.--Yin&Yang 05:03, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Yin&Yang: I was saying that if you sign your posts with 4 ~s while not being logged on your IP address and time of post will be recorded. That would at least help us understand that the posts are from one person and allow us to respond appropraitely. Omni: I understand what you're saying but I also understand that there has to be a limit or everything still falls apart. For me the third time is that limit. Besides now that he has become a user and is signing his posts properly I have no problem with him. And have already let bygones be bygones. Back to the debate: Ummm, what was this all about again? (Comic relief) - Zero - Talk 10:42, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Hey Zero, where is everyone? Feeling a little alone here guys.--Yin&Yang 13:08, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Even if Avatar was modelled after Asia, the planet would have an equator zone which would be warmer, and since we have a world map, there is a clear equator zone. Even if the culture is not the same, the planet would still be warmer in the middle. I agree that the scene where Toph, Sokka and Suki is misleading, but that's a much more blatant example, that's so far away from the reasonable doubt limit that the line becomes a dot when you look at it. I also agree that the water would be closer to Hama, but if it was the same water coming from a different angle, we'd also see it coming from off-screen, from the angle they showed, it appears on Hama's sides, out of nowhere, and we can say that cause we don't see it being recycled on-screen, nor being pulled from off-screen. Zero, I know you mean well, but I urge you to police yourself, limits do exist, but they exist for us sysops as well, we mustn't lose sight of that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:13, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay, forget about the geography of the scene! I still stand by what I said previously, but it's clear that this is a topic way too open to speculation. Let's stick with the facts. Like I said before, you are giving the animators too much credit. It is obvious that they made minor mishaps with the camera angle's view of the airborne water. You are reading too much into it. Your argument is that the animators would show the recycling of the water in greater detail. Why? The series has already shown water recycling countless times before so why focus on it this one time? I am repeating myself again but the animators would certainly show more detail into the condensation of such large volumes of water vapor out of the air. Especially if it were happening for the first time in the whole show! Hence, the water is being recycled meaning that extra details aren't necessary. If Katara could just pull oceans out of the air, why was she frantically searching for a water source in Sozin's Comet during her battle with Azula? If you somehow find a stupid reason to wave that one away then consider the other 50 times she used waterbending after she learned from Hama. No condensing there.

I'm quite curious about something though. Why am I even bothering trying to convince you people anymore? I'm starting to think that you really don't care about the outcome of this 4 week (maybe more) debate. I think that you just want a little conflict to spice up the website which would explain why all my responses have had to contain the same information. Forgive me if I'm wrong about my assumption, but there is no other explanation. I have given ENOUGH information on this matter and quite frankly, I'm sick of waisting my time and energy. This is in no way a threat, but unless this page makes the changes I've asked for from day 1, I will sign out of this site permanently. I am an Avatar fan and the show is just fantastic but I refuse to be part of a website that is spreading untruths. I will wait for a about a week but if no changes have been made, then goodbye.--Yin&Yang 11:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

above. well, it might've been easier for Katara to pull water out of thin air because she was under a full moon. and it wouldve been harder for her to do it during sozin's comet because the atmosphere was presumably hotter and her waterbending wasn't enhanced in anyway. --Scorvi12 14:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

A hotter environment would mean more evaporation of liquid water meaning more water moisture in the air. What about all the other instances (post Puppetmaster) where Katara needed water to bend? You are just all making excuses! Not that anyone has succeeded in proving my arguments wrong, but no one seems to want to acknowledge the whole Fire/Air versus Water/Earth. Fire and air are the only elements capable of being bent from the palm of the hand unlike water and earth. Do I have to draw you a schematic?

Water is to Fire as 'element needs source' is to 'element does not need source'. Earth is to Air as 'element needs source' is to 'element does not need source'.

That is the last time I'm saying that. --Yin&Yang 10:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

The only thing ever made clear on that matter, as it can be seen in the Firebending article is that Firebending is the only art which creates the element it manipulates, all others manipulate the present element, in reality, Airbenders don't shoot air out of their palms, they manipulate the air around them the same way Waterbenders and Earthbenders do. If that was the case, people would have had issues with this a long time ago, the only classifications I ever saw about the elements is the Greek one, according to which Air and Fire are hot while Water and Earth are cool, and Air and Water are humid while Fire and Earth are dry. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 12:00, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have to break my vow of silence on this topic. I have previously stated that obviously, air is not created but used from the surroundings. I thought this an obvious idea so I didn't go into too much detail in my last entry. Of course fire is the only element created (unless you count the emotional drive of the bender as the source), but that isn't the point. What I am getting at here is that only fire and air can be used as if it is taken from nothing i.e. used in pretty much any environment and fired directly from the body of the bender (including airbending staffs). Water and earth require the respective benders to take time (the duration of which depending on the situation) to actually draw their element from the ground or bodies of water and then utilize them. Let me fine-tune the details for those still struggling with this concept with a little scenario. Imagine you are a bender, okay? Better yet, an Avatar. Let's just say, per chance, that you are in one of the Firelord's airships (like Toph, Sokka and Suki in the series finale) and you really need to use one of the forms of bending to survive an attack from oncoming firebenders. What would you have at your disposal hundreds of feet in the air? Hmm, now air would definately be one of them and the other would most definitely be fire. You raise your hands and whoosh, a powerful air-gust cascades the firebenders sending them flying into the far wall. Then you decide for a slightly more lethal approach and shoot some fireblasts at them (don't worry, they dodge these). Even if there was a vegetable patch right next to you, you would still be drawing water from the soil/plants for waterbending or using the soil itself as a weapon for earthbending. You cannot raise your hand and make a stream of water appear out of nowhere and fire it at your opponents. Also, I didn't have to research the classical elements to figure this whole Fire/Air connection thing out. Powers of deduction my friend. Think about it, your argument can only be "backed up" with evidence from ONE scene (Hama's and Katara's fight) which, might I add, is very misleading. One scene versus hundreds isn't much of a basis. Before you think of a rebuttal, scroll up and have a read of what I've already said to save me from further repetiting myself. I really have had enough of this and all I want is for the changes I've almost begged for to be made - or at least you agree to let me change it without you or anyone else undoing my changes (again).Yin&Yang 14:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm still not convinced. As 888 said before, it's like you're "trying to explain how Katara could not have pulled the water from the air", I've given reasons as why she could have, related to bending, but mostly relating to geography, and I still have to see undeniable evidence that it wouldn't be possible for her to do it, at one point you even said "forget the geography", that's not disproving those points. Is it far-fetched? Yes, but taking in consideration the particularities of that occasion, it makes sense. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:44, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Hold up, I never said that Katara could not bend water out of the air at all (not that you see it)! I am saying that she nor Hama nor any other waterbender for that matter could bend as much water from the air as you claim to have seen her do in the Puppetmaster. We both don't know, and I doubt we'll ever know, exactly why Katara could not bend as much water as you think she can from the air. In real-life theory it may, I repeat may be possible (that is, if waterbending really existed) for Katara to have used the humidity but we can't assume that for sure. We don't know if it is because of a lack of water moisture in the air or if a waterbender simply can't do it - maybe it's a combination of the two but there is no way that Katara bent that water from the air. Even if you were correct, that means that it is only the full-moon's presence that can affect a bender's power that way and allow them to pull what looks like 6 metric litres of water from the air (which would need to be mentioned in the wiki page). As for the whole equator humidity thing, a lot of the Earth Kingdom and even the Western and Eastern Air Temples are on or near the equator and still Katara never pulled water from the air in any of those locations. Obviously, she didn't spend much if not anytime in the Earth Kingdom after she met Hama, but she still chose to use water from her surroundings (not including the air) during her time in the Western Air Temple (which is also on an island) at least. Besides, did you not notice that she still carries around her water-bag/sack even after the Hama incident? She even packs four of them with water in preparation for the Invasion (which also occured after her confrontation with Hama). Still not enough water there? How about the two massive waterbarrels strapped to Appa's sides during the invasion! If she could bend just as much water from the air, why bother with barrels and skins? You can only argue your point from that ONE scene involving Hama and that isn't even properly illustrated! You once said that if the water was recycled in the Puppetmaster we'd see the water droplets ascend in to the air or clearly see them airborne like in the Southern Raiders. Here's a hint and a half: we do! Remember? Sure Katara is not controlling the droplets at the time we see close-ups of her's and Hama's faces but we are given images to emphasize that they are there. Is there something wrong with the way I'm writing or something? HOW can I explain it to you better than I already have? Please let me know what you need from me so that I can prove to you that I am speaking the truth! I honestly cannot see why you are still unconvinced. What am I doing wrong?Yin&Yang 06:24, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I was never against saying that the moon influenced Katara, allowing her to remove that much water from the air, it was even part of my arguments, I see no problem in listing something like "Katara used this technique against Hama, condensing water at her sides. Due to the ammount of water she collected, it's likely that the power of the full moon is needed to make the most use of the technique". One of the bases of my arguments was the full moon augmenting her powers. The thing about the dropplets is that in the time she focus shifts from Katara and then to Hama and back to Katara, those dropplets disappear, saying Katara reused them without us actually seeing it would be speculative. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

That quote you used in the last paragraph would be excellent to use in the wiki IF it were true. What I don't get is that if this was your initial argument, why didn't you write that into the wiki page sooner? Before any of these questions were raised? That would mean that you agree to the obvious falseness of the wiki page on waterbending. I probably would have still disagreed with you even if you changed it to say that, but at least it would not be blatantly saying that waterbenders have the potential to pull vast volumes of water from the air at all times. This one scene from "the Puppetmaster" seems to be the main cause of too much trouble. The cut-back to Katara after the water is splattered is, don't forget, in real-time (not in slow-motion) which means that the water is heading towards Hama. This is where the animators have made a critical mistake. I can't describe every minute detail in a paragraph but basically the water being reformed is clearly evident. Where you see water condensed from thin-air, I see the water re-used so technically, it does show the reformation of the droplets. It is what is inferred that counts, despite animation faults. To think that the water came from the air is pure speculation because that would be the only time in the whole series that it is "done" whereas, it would be the umpteenth time in the series where Katara reshapes water. I wrote that in bold so that it stands out in your mind a little more. Also, even in the Southern Raiders, with the full moon present, Katara still carries her water skin and uses water strictly from the liquid state. I'm not talking about the facing-off with Yon Rha but the infiltration of the Southern Raiders' ship and communications tower i.e. events that happen at night. What you are saying is that Katara could raise her hand and produce a flow of water like Aang does a flow of air. Back to the Puppetmaster for a second. Hama is shown to bend water from the air (without the full moon) but it takes her a little more time to do so than a standard waterbending move would; because she can only collect enough to wrap around her fingers with one sweeping hand motion. I think it is important to note that Hama shows Katara this straight after Katara tells the innkeeper that she once used her sweat for waterbending. Hama was just showing her an easier way of collecting water. I guess this technique could only be put to good use if Katara needed to refill her water-skin slowly by casually walking around and collecting condensed vapor in the same fashion as Hama had shown her; thereby bending it into her bag little by little. How's that? Just to be clear, you do at least agree that Katara couldn't condense that much water without the full moon, right? If so, you're a step in the right direction. - Yin&Yang 12:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to have to drop into this again, mainly because this discussion is turning into a nasty unresolvable editorial dispute. Yin&Yang, you are vastly understimating the combined effect of the full moon and the humidity of the air. If Hama, who is weaker than Katara, can condense that much water in the bright daylight without the power Waterbenders wield at night and without the power of the full moon, I have no doubts that Katara can condense much more water once all the factors that make Waterbenders more powerful come into play. The key thing here is the humidity in Fire Nation air. I have doubt that condensing water like this would be impossible at, say, the Southern Air Temple. However, the humidity of the Fire Nation air means that there is indeed enough water around for it to be possible. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar ^{Talk} 12:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

This argument is not turning nasty but is almost unresolvable, 888. Perhaps in real-world applications what you are saying is true, but the fact is that there is '’’NO’’’ evidence that Katara can bend great amounts of water from the air in the show. Omnibender as well as yourself seem to be suffering from the delusion that Katara bent all that water from the evaporated concentrations in the air during her fight in the Puppetmaster. She only bent what she had just splattered into the air as a counter-attack on Hama. Remember that the principle of waterbending is that the bender turns their opponent’s attack on them. That is what Katara did! If Katara was seen to actually perform mass condensation of water in the Southern Raiders when the moon is full and her not use already liquid sources than I’d be more inclined to agree with you. I am not underestimating the “effect of the full moon”, you are overestimating the limitations of the show. What more supposed “proof” is there in any other scene in the show, that Katara or any waterbender did what you claim to have seen? The idea that waterbending allows a bender to extract water from the air in such large amounts is very similar to the whole Soundbending debate on the Airbending page in that there is no definitive proof. Although, there are two apparent cases in which Aang apparently soundbends in the series compared to only one scene of argument in which Katara allegedly bends two large volumes of water at Hama from the air. What you are suggesting is a matter for the Fanon page because that is what it is: Fan Fiction. I wish one of the creator’s of the show would actually find this page and add to it so that we can finally move on from this. I am 100% certain that he would not gang up with you all and disagree with my arguments without even thinking them through. I know that I am right on this and you just can’t seem to accept the fact that there is a serious error in the waterbending page. Omnibender, I’m eagerly awaiting your answer to the question I asked you in my last entry. - Yin&Yang 03:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "obvious falseness", the only it was ever argued in this section is what happened in Katara's fight with Hama. I never said waterbenders can always pull massive amounts of water from the air, what I said is that during that specific fight, that's what Katara did. If I had said the first it would the same thing as saying Katara could have gotten an olympic pool of water in the middle of Si Wong Desert. If the water reforming was evident, we wouldn't be having this debate, going on the screencap links way above, I don't see dropplets being refored, what I see is two water "streams" forming in the air, if they had been reformed from the dropplets, we'd be able to see said dropplets still in the air, the real time you mentioned yourself, is enough so that the water had fallen to the ground. I'm not sure if I mentioned this before, but taking water from the air also makes sense because then Katara would have used all the techniques Hama taught her. Katara did carry her skin with her in 316, but most of the time she already had bendables available, such as sea water, ink and rain, and as you said, it was an infiltration, they had to get in and out unnoticed, doing something flashy would increase their chances of being discovered. About Hama doing it, now you're the one assuming. Just because Hama only collected a small amount of water, it doesn't mean that's all it can be done, for all we know that could be just an example. I would like to ask you to keep the Airbending discussion at the airbending talk page, there's no need to mix them. Don't think we didn't think your arguments through, we just think that they're flawed, the same you think ours is. Just so you know, I've never seen the idea of Katara recycling the water anywhere else. The fact I'm pretty much the only person who still tries to reason with you in this matter goes to show that they think you can't be reasoned with. Also, don't think one of the creators would just agree with you, I know I'm biased, but I feel that the arguments for condensation are more concrete than the ones for recycling the water. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:55, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but you never said that you think that Katara couldn't have bent the water from the air without the full moon before. After all this time, you never once indicated to me that that is what you thought. I have to say, it sounds very convenient that you say that after I asked you directly. I'm not scoffing at you but I think that you were very recently persuaded into believing that, by me. If not, sorry for sounding pompous but that is the picture I'm getting here. Now then, you say that the water forming in the Puppetmaster could not be from the splattered water Katara had just sent into the air because of it not appearing to be so. If you ask me, the condensation of the water from the air does not appear to be so. Let's say for a moment that you're right and Katara did condense that water. Don't you think that being the very FIRST time she had done this in the series, the creators would have showed this in greater detail? For example, they could have put Katara into slow-motion as she flails her arms around and then the screen could cut to a camera shot of minute droplets of air coming together and forming to seperate masses. Something along those lines would have made it unanimous. What I meant by recycling of the water is that Katara just re-used it. I don't see how you could have misunderstood that considering Katara is constantly reusing water. She doesn't make the water herself. Also, if the rule for the Puppetmaster was just to show Katara learning from Hama, Katara would have copied her moves exactly as they were first demonstrated; as she did with Bloodbending and extracting water from the plants. In other words, she may have collected a little water around her fingertips, froze them and fired them at Hama. Speaking of which, the plant-extraction thing is used repeatedly in Katara's fight with Hama. Why so much for the one move and so little (if at all) for condensation? Because condensation was never used by Katara. Again, what is the point of teaching plant-water extraction if Katara could just shoot blasts of condensed water from her hand? Your statement for episode 316 is just outrageous. How would condensing water streams at the Raiders from the air be more "flashy" than using a giant, very conspicuous wave to almost knock the ship over? If you're talking about the scene with the ink spill then that is just more proof of the writers adding little conveniences to allow Katara to bend. Oh, and the only reason why you and I are pretty much the only ones discussing this is not because they find me unpersuadable but because it is, as Zero so rightly put it once, "human nature" for people to not want to read paragraphs as long as ours. Would you contribute to this discussion if you were an "outsider" or so to speak and you saw how long these paragraphs are? It does not matter if you or anyone else on this wiki said that Katara could bend all that water from the air in this discussion page. That is not the point. The point is that the wiki page itself implies that she can. What needs to be added here is a sentence at least stating that such moves (condensing large amounts of water from the air) can only occur under the full-moon. No, I still don't agree with your overall argument, but I am prepared to accept this as a negotiation for now. - Yin&Yang 07:05, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

My entire argument so far has been to justify condensation in that one instance, not condensation in general, Hama's condensation is enough to prove it exists. Considering how fast the focus changed from Katara to her attack, I'd say that's a clue, even if not a blatant one. The point of teaching water extraction from plants when there is condensation is that, like I've said before, under normal circunstances, such as no moon and day, it's possible condensation doesn't have as much potential, so it'd be best to gather it from plants. You misunderstood my 316 arguments, the flashyness I talked about was in the moment Zuko and Katara get inside the tower to gather information, they weren't there to fight, that would be the moment when they get to the ship. If they had revealed themselves in the tower, news about them would reach the Southern Raiders, they'd be on the lookout for them. The ink was indeed convenient, but it's to be expected, nick.com says themselves that Waterbending is the most versatile, and considering that the communication tower has maps and writes messages, it's only logical for them to use ink, and Katara has shown the ability to bend solutions before, so it's not something really new, it's just another solution. About the "human nature", I would definitely join the discussion, I was able to articulate myself so far didn't I? I just don't feel that there are many people who would actually care to do this. I'm not against listing that she was being powered by the full moon, but it has to come through that even though she was, she'd still be able to remove water from air, maybe not as much as she did, but it would be more than the example Hama showed her. I think the reason they didn't use condensation a lot, and didn't use it after that episode is too avoid the one thing you already feel they didn't: that waterbending is too powerful. Katara is already strong, she's practically the Azula version of Waterbending, only good. They didn't show Katara pulling water from plants in following episodes, even though we saw it was very possible, and could gather a reasonable amount of water even without the moon. They just did it to show it was possible and that Katara was able to do it, other than bloodbending in 316, she never used any of the techniques she learned with Hama again. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:26, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Now we're getting somewhere. So if you agree that the 'condensation' and 'weakness' section of the waterbending page is flawed, would you be prepared to change it? What could be said is something like: 'Water has been demonstrated, by Hama in "the Puppetmaster", to be able to be condensed from the very air that surrounds a waterbender. While Hama herself was only able to bend water vapor by collecting the particles on her fingers, it is possible that a master waterbender could condense larger quantities with the aid of the full moon; even from a distance. However, whether this is possible is still unclear.' What do you think? Personally, I still think that a lot if not all the condensing power comes from the concentration of water in the air. Even though humidity varies, when you say it is, for example, 95% humidity outside you are talking relative humidity. What gives a clearer scope is this; if you were to collect all the air in the world (all the air in the earth's atmosphere) into one place, only approximately 1% (I've given this figure before) of those tonnes of gases would be water. Now, compared to the rest of the air's gas concentrations that isn't very much. Spread out over the globe, this water is even more scarce and harder to obtain via waterbending. Here is a new piece of information that I picked up watching 316 again. When Katara and Zuko attack the Souther Raiders' ship, they enter its interior only to find the wrong man. Did you notice that even with the full moon, Katara had her... ah... "water-sleeves" on? That's right, both her arms were covered in water she had obtained from the ocean outside the ship. Now, what's the use of storing water like that if she could just bend huge amounts of water from the air to knock open the metal vault-like door that leads to the captain? The moon was completely full so according to your theory, she could have easily waved her arm and burst open that door as an air/firebender might. The creators of the show do think deeply before they start animating, but they never compromise the personality of their characters. Katara in the puppetmaster states and I quote: "Shame about the lillies, though". This is just after Hama bends (during the day) all the water out of a bunch of "fire lillies". Hama doesn't seem to care or value life as Katara does so she has no problem with dessicating plants. At night under the full moon however, Katara kills several grass blades and trees in her fight with Hama. Remember what Hama had said: "When you're a waterbender in a strange land, you do what you must to survive". This reinforces the idea that Katara had NO choice in the matter of killing plants while battling Hama and keeping bloodbent Aang and Sokka at bay. Katara kills a tree just to bind Aang to another one with ice. She would never do that if she had the option of pulling gallons of water from the air around her. Katara is a gentle natured person, similar to Aang. I would say that the creators' main goal was to show Katara learning from Hama, but she would only need to bend water once or twice from plants to show this. She does it more times than is necessary for demonstrating a move. The fact is that it is necessary for her to bend water soley from plants because (a) she can't rely on the air for enough water and (b) because she has to "do what [she] must to survive". In short, she had NO other alternative water source (at least not one with enough volume to take Hama down with).--Yin&Yang 00:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I see where we're going with the condensation issue, but I see nothing wrong with the weaknesses section other than that the overcoming section appears to be repetitive of what is already said right above it. I agree with most of the example sentence, but Hama said herself she was a master, so we could use a broader term such as "depending on the Waterbender's skill and environmental factors", environmental factors being everything we've discussed so far, such as the moon and weather, and there's still the issue of how much she'd be able to do. We don't know if Hama could have removed more water if she wanted to, not doing something doesn't mean you can't do it, it could mean she chose not to. By "water sleeves" I believe you mean the tentacle things? If so, it falls under the same choice aspect with Hama, my opinion is that they made her collect water from the ocean because making her take it from the air would make her unnecessarily powerful, more than she already is. Or was, you get what I mean. About Katara's nature and killing a tree to restrain Aang, her nature also makes her stand up for her beliefs, when she suspected Zuko would betray the group after joining it, she threatened to make Zuko's destiny end "right then and there". She didn't do it, but was very willing to. Similarly, she said she wouldn't let Hama terrorize the town, killing plants seems like an affordable price to pay. To accomplish showing Katara learning everything Hama taught her, she'd have to remove water from the air at least once, and the amount she removed was still less than what she removed from plants. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:09, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

You CAN’T be serious! What your “opinion” is of why the creators had Katara store water as tentacles in the Southern Raiders, is pure speculation and not to mention ridiculous. Why would it make Katara seem ‘’too’’ powerful if she had (even though I know she couldn’t have) bent that water from the air. If that was the case, if the creators didn’t want Katara to seem too powerful then she would never have bent water from the air in the Puppetmaster! No I’m not saying she did, but for argument’s sake she did according to you. That is completely groundless. The pure and very simple fact is that if she could have condensed that much water from the air with the aid of the full-moon, then she would never have even bothered storing the water on her arms! Please don’t try to turn that argument around because it can’t be. It is the only explanation. Also, I don’t agree with your statements that Katara is made out to be overly powerful because there are other characters way more powerful than her by comparison: Azula, Zuko and Aang to name a few. Also, we both know that Katara’s threat to Zuko was empty – she wouldn’t even kill Yon Rha, the man who upturned her life forever. Besides, that whole threat to Zuko has nothing to do with it! Katara had no reason to desperately seek revenge on Hama and so she was well within emotional control to choose to remove water from the plants to save herself. She would not want to kill anything without it being 100% crucial to her or others’ survival. As for the last point, who says that Katara had to show all the things she learnt from Hama on-screen? There’s another point to support my argument right there; Katara didn’t condense any water from the air in her fight because of a lack of water quantity yield. Little ice-spikes made from evaporated water would do little against a foe as powerful as Hama. It’s funny, every time I leave a comment I fee so sure that none of it could possibly be denied and sent back to the drawing board but each time you try to disprove (key word: try) my arguments with a completely groundless remark. Yes I know that that scene in the Puppetmaster is a little ambiguous but our opinions of what we think we saw is getting us nowhere so I’m giving examples from other episodes to prove my arguments are correct. That is all I’m doing by handing you scenes from, for example, the Southern Raiders. Will you please just agree? I’d say I pretty much disproved your moonlit air-waterbending theory so why not just say, “okay, you’re right”. --Yin&Yang 04:55, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I've tried to convince you, you won't yield, neither will I. I'm afraid things will stay as they are, cause other than factual accuracy, which I still think you're mistaken, this is a community, and I have yet to see someone backing your opinion, while everyone other than me who cared enough to post here agrees with me. I didn't want to resort to this, I really didn't but I see no way to do that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:28, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Fine then, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I am quite happy to leave the section of the article discussing ‘condensation’ as it is at the moment (considering that it doesn’t disagree with my argument). The whole point of trying to convince you was so that no one else saw it fit to alter the paragraphs discussing the topic again. As I recall, you yourself altered what I had said a few times and so all I was trying to do was stop that from happening again. If we at least agree that the case is closed, then I am satisfied. I’m glad that we can finally lay this thing to rest but I must ask you something. If you hadn’t made the decision to leave it be, what would your argument have been as a reply to my last entry? I’m not trying to pick this dispute up again, I’m just curious as to what you would have said in response. I won’t write back to try and fight your answer but I feel that we would be leaving the conclusion to this debate with loose ends if this was the end of it. --Yin&Yang 05:48, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I think that both of us see what the other says as speculative, with different oppinions on what characters would or wouldn't do, and about what they're capable of doing, such as the so named empty threat, which I don't find empty at all. I can't force you to agree with me, you can't force me to agree with you, and things will be listed according to what the community wishes, no matter which of us it decides to back up. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:41, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

You didn't really answer my question, but if you choose not to then I'm fine with that. As long as this thing is officially over. I do agree with you on one thing though, I think it's up to the readers to decide their point-of-views on the matter once they've read all the arguments we've put forward in this month-long debate. All the details are splayed out on the table and it's just a matter of collective agreement that will determine the final answer.--Yin&Yang 13:10, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] mistake

on the bending arts it says that there are five arts but on each of the pages earthbending firebending waterbending airbending energybending

               it says there are only 4 Lovingazula 17:43, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

enyone else noticed this Lovingazula 18:09, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

i noticed this aswell 84.13.37.35 18:13, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Correct it then. The 888th Avatar ^{- Talk} 22:07, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I corrected it. I changed the opening paragraphs to say "Elemental Bending Arts", but I don't want the opening paragraphs to say "five Bending Arts" or anything like that, because I don't think Energybending is quite the same thing. It's different from the other four. Puragus ^Talk 22:12, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah. Energybending is the Original Bending Art. The other four came afterwards. - Zero - Talk 05:09, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Ice Weapons

Apart from freezing water to create shards, would it be posiible for a master waterbedner to create spears/swords of a steel hard ice? That could come in handy.Frosty Earth 18:22, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't know. Maybe. The 888th Avatar ^{- Talk} 22:07, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems like there would be problems with that, like the fact that they'd be freezing cold, slippery and they'd melt. It seems easier just to use Ice attacks as a waterbending move. Puragus ^Talk 22:21, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

The same thing was suggested with firebending. Bending fire into the shape of swords. It is certainly possible. However these techniques will possess their difficulties, like the one stated above. But it has not yet been shown on the show so don't go adding it to the article. - Zero - Talk 05:07, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I know this may not be categorised in the proper place but it at least comes close to the argument. I think that this entire page (the article for Waterbending) is extremely bias and has been overworked. There is such a thing as knowing when to stop and someone has failed at that miserably. I don't know who it is, but someone seems hell bent in prooving that waterbending is the superior element by introducing new, made-up moves that clearly do not make the idea of the four elements being balanced out to look very true. For example, categorizing water, snow, and ice manipulation under different sub-headings is just a pathetic way of making it seem like waterbending has more moves than it really does. Obviously, if it is possible to manipulate water into different shapes, then the same applies to all three states of water. Stop trying to improve upon something that does not need improvement. This page was fine the way it was and then someone decided that they would like to try and prove a stupid point. What annoys me in particular, is the ridiculous misconception surrounding the idea of waterbenders condensing water from the air. PLEASE do me a favor and scroll down to 'Condenstation' and read my notes at the bottom. Whoever is in charge of the waterbending article has gone to extreme lengths to ensure that whatever changes made to it by an individual other than themselves is just ignored and the page reverts back to, what now has become, its default setting. There a 6 or 7 sub-headings under 'Waterbending Moves' that could be easily narrowed down under 1-4 sub-headings. Stop thinning the ice and trying to invent new moves, it's just pathetic! A 'water knife' does not become 'water rings' whatever you called them just by a change in shape. The main idea is that the water is compressed to a sharp point - THAT IS ALL! There is no need to keep adding and adding. This also goes for the number of pictures on the page - get rid of them! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

We got another cleaner here. Man I hate these guys. Looking down on all the hard work others have put in as if it was nothing. That really burns me up. But I've sorta gotten used to it. How should we respond here? - Zero - Talk 03:41, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

You guys have obviously put a lot of effort into this page and I apologize for coming off as a little abrupt before but seriously, the page was very well done before the extra stuff was added. There really was no need to add sub-headings and new moves that are actually part of or slightly branch off other moves. Knowing when to stop is important and what needs to happen is for the original page to resurface. We need to cut-down on excess images and paragraphs. Please people, we should stop focusing on just this page and start building on other ones known as "stubs" i.e the ones that have barely nothing in them at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

It's a long standing policy on this wiki to compile all information pertaining to a subject no matter how minute (Curse wikipedia and it's cleanup policies!). Ahem, anyways, heres a tip. Sign your posts with 4 ~s. - Zero - Talk 07:00, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

That's all well and good but that is not by greatest concern. What I'm getting at here is that there is, as you say Zero, TMIx10! One word (repeatedly): Bias, bias, bias. Waterbending is balanced out with the rest of the elements. Someone please change this page, it just screams "Waterbending is the best"! You cannot just keep adding to the advantages and minusing the disadvantages. Here's my sign off name - Balance —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.198.136 (talk)

Okay, I think it's time I said something. While I personally believe that pages should not be too long in the interests of readability, I adamantly refuse to agree to deleting content to move towards that type of standard. I think that for all the pages over 60kb, something needs to be done i.e. the article needs to be split. However, deleting content to shorten pages is against my beliefs.

Your arguments about the page being biased are misinformed at best and ridiculous at worst. I cannot see any language on the page to suggest that Waterbending is indeed the best bending art. As the show has consistently displayed, skill is more important than the specific bending art. Having "more moves" does not equate to being better. It just means that the bending art just happens to be of that nature. Having biased language is, and this page does not have biased language. There isn't an NPOV problem. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar ^{Talk} 09:26, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with 888 on the deletion but not on the splitting. Anyways. Like the Wikipedians told me when I was over there to come here for more info so I say to you: Go to wikipedia if you want less information. It is never written that waterbending is the best element. And the article does not scream that. Balance? Hah. Don't make me laugh. This site is a balance for the absence of info on wikipedia. Go there if you must but don't trod on the hard work of others. Everything that is written here has been confirmed to be in the show. Take a look at the Fanon wiki and compare with it. Then maybe you'll understand. By the way TMIx10 was for your discussion and a way to lighten the mood, Copycat. - Zero - Talk 17:17, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The reason Waterbending has more moves is because due to the manipulation of water in all its forms, Waterbending is bound to have more possible moves, Nick.com's description of waterbending itself says it's highly versatile, and that comes through in the number of moves. Another reason for there being many sections is because there is a lot of info on it, for example, both Waterbending and Firebending have an enhanced bending art section due to the external factors that influence it, Air and Earth don't have that section. Water has a section to the confirmed sub-skill, which would be healing. All but Airbending have that section. The only thing it has over the other pages is the overcoming weaknesses sub section and a section that was added to illustrate the differences between the bending styles of the three Water Tribes. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Nicely said Omni. - Zero - Talk 13:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Compression disagreement

So, there seems to be some contention in what exactly occurs when water is pressurized by Waterbenders to the point of slicing through objects. The overview of this article states that water is incompressible (which is not true, since you can compress water, it just takes an incredible amount of force to accomplish a little compression), yet in the Water Knife category, it says that water is compressed to be able to cut through objects. Is there a good way to find a common ground on this matter to make things more uniform? Personally, I would argue that it is pressurized rather than compressed. Pressurized water exists in nature, and is arguably forseeable in the capacities of a Waterbender. --AlexielSolarin 08:46, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• Pressurized works for me. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:24, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree. That's a basic fact. Solids can be compressed but with a great force. Liquids are also compressible but the force needed is lesser and gasses are the most compressable. Physics 101. - Zero - Talk 06:57, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

• Yes... but that doesn't have anything to do with the question... what I was trying to get at was whether or not Waterbenders compress or pressurize water, and I'm thinking the idea is that they apply pressure to their water they bend in order to slice through metal, pressurize and refine the "edge" of their bendables. In that way, it's different from compressing the water, the Waterbenders are using their ki like a pressure washer uses air pressure to move water at high enough speeds to break through other materials. --AlexielSolarin 07:48, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Well compressing an object does make it harder. So I guess that should be correct. - Zero - Talk 08:21, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] New move. Ice Swimming

A new move could be Ice swimming. This occurs in Hama's flashback with a man coming out of the icy ground. Could this be a new move?

I agree this is a new move. You can clearly see the waterbender emerge from the solid ice underneath him. Chaosorcerer 18:15, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it should be called Snow Tunneling since it's the Waterbender version of Earth Tunneling . --JFH2009 18:24, October 21, 2009 (UTC)