Please respect the fourth wall

I continuously notice that people are inserting Western critiques of the world of Avatar into these articles. The world of Avatar is traditional and based heavily on Asian cultures. Please be objective and stop ascribing traits to societies that are not explicitly stated.

For example, some claim that the Northern Water Tribe is patriarchal. However, it is only through a modern feminist lens that it would be considered such. Nothing has explicitly stated that the men rule over the women in this society, merely that there are traditions that they observe. Devros89 (wallcontribs) 02:59, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Well, just considering the case in general, it is patriarchal in every sense of the word, at least from what we know. Lineage is passed down through family line to the eldest male, which definitively constitutes a patriarchy. Even cultural anthropology would define it as such even when applying relativism. Waterbending emblem Water Spout 03:12, November 12, 2013 (UTC)
You are confusing "patriarchy" and "patrilineality". But that is beside the point. In general, you are providing a modern critique, a subjective statement that has no real basis for truth, that does not offer any useful information; indeed, I would argue that it MISLEADS the reader. In short, I do not think we should be projecting real-world value judgments on these people. Because really, if I had to give a modern critique, three of the Four Nations are patriarchal; this is only because we do not know who gets the final say in the Air Nomads. Devros89 (wallcontribs) 03:30, November 12, 2013 (UTC)
No, I am not. Patriarchy by definition refers to societal structure based on male decision-making, which is the case with the Northern Water Tribe, and the Water Tribes in general, with consideration of everything we've seen. Power transfer is patrilineal in nature, but it's not uncommon to have patrilineal structure within a patriarchy since they often exist alongside each other. In any case, projection of real world ideas are applicable if they are justified. The creators themselves have referenced drawing inspiration and ideas from real world cultures and so there is no reason to omit these cultures from consideration when writing articles, regardless of the fact that the Avatar universe is separate from our own world. In general, pages remain objective even when real world concepts are involved, because emotive language is generally avoided. A leader is not regarded as oppressive unless he is identified as such by a canon source, be that from the series or the creators themselves. Waterbending emblem Water Spout 03:46, November 12, 2013 (UTC)
So... should I add "patriarchal" to the Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation as well? (Even with a female Fire Lord, the society seems liberalized, yet patriarchal.) Also, it's funny you talk about real cultures, since you won't let me reference the actual system of government in Ancient China; yes, I am resentful of that, because it is a Western bias in an obviously Asian setting. And yes, I agree that we must be conservative in value judgments. But calling the Water Tribe patriarchal is still a modern value judgment. This is like saying the Air Nomads are oppressive, because from a modern perspective, forcing children to become monks/nuns and branding them with tattoos is not exactly a liberal notion. Devros89 (wallcontribs) 03:55, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Nobody said you couldn't use knowledge of real cultures or otherwise any real pieces of evidence to aid in your contributions. But it's policy to keep in-universe pages strictly in-universe, and that's something that is at times frustrating, but something that needs to be followed nonetheless. I personally see no problem in identifying the Water Tribe as patriarchal when overwhelming evidence seems to support it and see that I'm not gonna convince you of that. If you really think that it's a misleading value judgment, it would be worth bringing to the war room for discussion. Waterbending emblem Water Spout 04:05, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Fengjian system

So, I noticed the reference to the fengjian system of Ancient China was removed. However, due to the fact that the word is Chinese, it is impossible to use it as an adjective in a Western context, hence my OOU phrasing; if I said "the Earth Kindgom is a fengjian state," nobody would understand. But the fact is, the Earth Kingdom is indeed based on the fengjian system of Ancient China, in which a decentralized monarch held away over various nobles and lesser kings who in turn ruled a vast territory in his name. The creators of the show have referenced this Ancient China connection in the past, and it is apparent in their dress and culture. Devros89 (wallcontribs) 03:40, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Then that piece of information should be incorporated to the influences page where similar pieces of information are noted. It is part of policy to keep an in-universe stance when dealing with pages. Regardless, a description of the Earth Kingdom's system is sufficient in describing it without alluding to a real world counterpart. Waterbending emblem Water Spout 03:46, November 12, 2013 (UTC)
So... there is a language bias toward Western cultures then? Because I see plenty of Western government systems being described with their proper form. Being Chinese, I do not find that to be fair. Devros89 (wallcontribs) 03:50, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

That is definitely not the case. There are terms prominent in Western cultures that apply and are appropriate to certain aspects of the show and so they are used. There are also cultures from Western cultures that are justifiably comparable to cultures from the show but like Eastern counterparts, they are not noted in articles as that would violate the standard of remaining in-universe. This community respects (and enjoys) the various influences used to create this universe and does not put a particular preference over a single one. And in that sense, there are plenty of pages wherein the Asian influences are elaborated and discussed, particularly in cases where it is the best to apply knowledge of those cultures; most location pages have connection and trivia sections that refer to the architecture as being present in a particular Asian culture, weapons pages are predominantly based off knowledge of weapons from the East, and Writing in the World of Avatar is one of the most extensive pages in this wiki about Avatar culture. Waterbending emblem Water Spout 04:05, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Southern Water Tribe

The article describes people from the Southern Water Tribe as "peasants". I thought peasants are farmers. How is it possible to grow anything at the South Pole? -Darjeeling- (wallcontribs) 18:43, September 3, 2014 (UTC)

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