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This is the talk page for the article "Kuvira".
This article is currently rated C-class on the Avatar Wiki grading system.
Allies and enemies Edit
Let's wait a bit more. Bolin is listed as an ally, Team Avatar is listed as an enemy, but Bolin is part of Team Avatar. That doesn't make sense. Team Avatar currently just doesn't exist. Why hasn't anyone changed Mako to Bolin's enemy? Because we all assume that they will reconcile. It's just too early to claim these things. -Darjeeling- (wall • contribs) 23:03, October 18, 2014 (UTC)
i think there is enough information to create an article about her relationships with the other characters
- I would wait, because relationship pages are not meant to merely be a recollection of all the interactions character A ever had with character B. The relationship pages report on the deeper meaning between character interaction and at this point, we don't know enough about Kuvira's true personality to be able to make that assessment correctly. Lady Lostris vstf (talk • HotN) 16:12, October 31, 2014 (UTC)
Resemblance to other strong demagogues in history?Edit
Should we mention her resemblance and probable inspiration to real life demagogues that lead armies and overthrew the king there? An easy example that comes to mind is late 1700s, early 1800s France, thrown into anarchy by various factors, a primarily land-based empire is united and made stronger by a single general, Napoleon Bonaparte, who later simply overthrows his king and makes the French Empire. KarstenO (wall • contribs) 22:45, November 3, 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think it is needed. There are several comparisons that could be made, and so specifying any one would be speculative and subjective on our part in picking that person as more notable than the others. Additionally, any general note of her actions being similar to those of people in real life would be clear from the rest of the article. HAMMEROFTHOR 23:03, November 3, 2014 (UTC)
- I noticed that Kuvira shared several similarities to the warlord Chin the Conqueror. Both of them conquered the Earth Kingdom during times of strife, both of them were beloved by their supporters and hated by their enemies, and both of them challenged the Avatar to single combat. I think that those similarities should be mentioned, at least in the trivia section. --StefCW (wall • contribs) 23:24, June 20, 2015 (UTC)
- Chin never conquered the entire Earth Kingdom and didn't fight Avatar Kyoshi (he intended to, but it never came to a battle). So beyond the point of "they were loved by their supporters and hated by their enemies" -which is something that goes for everyone- there are very little similarities between them. Lady Lostris vstf (talk • HotN) 18:27, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
- I disagree. Chin conquered the whole Earth Kingdom with the exception of two provinces (Ba Sing Se and Kyoshi Island). Kuvira, likewise, conquered the whole Earth Kingdom with the exception of the west coast, which was administrated by the United Republic, though she still attempted to seize it. And yes, fighting the Avatar is something they have in common. Chin challenged Kyoshi during his assault on her homeland, which led to him falling off a cliff, and Kuvira fought Korra twice, with the second battle leading to her defeat. Both of them were stopped by the Avatar during an attempt to expand their empires.
- Also, both of them were viewed as liberators by their followers, but dismissed as conquerors and dictators by everyone else, and both of them were more popular than the reigning Earth Monarch of the time. --StefCW (wall • contribs) 21:34, October 8, 2015 (UTC)
- You said it yourself: "Chin conquered the whole Earth Kingdom with the exception of two provinces (Ba Sing Se and Kyoshi Island)", the exceptions being the important part. So Chin never conquered the entire kingdom. Kuvira did, because the URN lands were at that point another legitimate country, regardless of her point of view that it was stolen land.
- As I said before, Chine never fought Avatar Kyoshi: she separate her village from the mainland before it could come to a battle. Chin falling to his death because of that was an unintended consequence, so it seemed.
- And as I also said before, being "viewed as liberators by their followers, but dismissed as conquerors and dictators by everyone else" is very common for someone who goes against the antagonist of a series. It's like the adagio, "one man's freedom fighter is the other man's terrorist". As for the factual correction: there was no reigning monarch during Kuvira's time -Wu wasn't in power yet, and in all fairness, we have to say that we just don't know how the entirety of the kingdom felt about Wu. For example, it's plausible that the people of Yi, for example, liked Wu better than Kuvira, considering they were forced to join her rather than came voluntarily. But, that's conjecture, so I'll digress. Lady Lostris vstf (talk • HotN) 21:47, October 8, 2015 (UTC)
- Kuvira was aiming to conquer the traditional Earth Kingdom, not the Earth Kingdom as it existed at the time. So my point is still valid. Kuvira didn't view her campaign as successful without subjugating the UR. On Wu not being the monarch, that's just factually untrue. Wu had already been officially crowned Earth King when Kuvira created her empire, making him the reigning monarch. As for how popular the two are, I'm only coming to that conclusion based on the way EK citizens in Republic City were reacting to them, which was overwhelmingly pro-Kuvira.
- Whether or not Chin got into a fight is secondary. I initially said that Chin "challenged" Kyoshi. I didn't say she took him up on it. That said, I would say Kyoshi did fight him, if only briefly. After all, she did airbend his clothes off. Regardless of whether or not you call it a fight, however, it's undeniable that confronting Avatar Kyoshi was what doomed Chin's campaign, just as making an enemy of Avatar Korra ended up dooming Kuvira's campaign.
- By the way, your example with Yi is based on the opinion of a single individual. The common people of Yi seemed quite happy when Kuvira took over. It was only the governor who was opposed to her. --StefCW (wall • contribs) 16:26, October 9, 2015 (UTC)
Although Kuvira wanted to conquer the traditional EK, that doesn't change the fact that the traditional EK didn't exist anymore and she has successfully conquered the EK as it did exist. As such, the comparison between her conquest and the one of Chin does not fly.
Wu was only crowned Earth King after Kuvira had united most of the Earth Kingdom, so for the three years that Kuvira was busy subjugating 90% of the EK, there was no official reigning monarch. By the time Kuvira officially declared her Earth Empire, Wu had literally just been crowned king. So there was only a reigning monarch for the official declaration of conquest, not during the conquest itself.
As for the popularity: Wu also had a lot of positive followers while he exited his hotel and during the press conference of the opening of the train station, so his own support is not to be disregarded just because there were more Kuvira supporters during his actual coronation ceremony. I'd like to emphasize, however, that I am in no way saying that Wu was more popular than Kuvira or the other way around, I am just pointing out that Wu also had his followers. We simply do not have enough objective data to support a claim that Kuvira was more popular in the entirety of the Earth Kingdom.
Chin's involvement in an actual fight is exactly the point, nothing secondary about it. He may have challenged Kyoshi, but as you noted yourself already: she didn't accept his challenge, thus there is no likeness between the two cases. As for the alleged "fighting" due to blowing his clothes away: that's an impossible feat (you simply cannot blow someone's clothes off like that without the person moving) added for comic relief more than anything else.
Hoh, that depends on how you'd like to interpret that confrontation. The confrontation with Kyoshi herself didn't doom anything. In the end, it was Chin's stubbornness to move that doomed him, because if he had just taken a few steps back when the rock started to crumble, he would've been fine. So it's too much of a stretch to actually declare a likeness between a lot of circumstances in the case of Chin/Kyoshi and a direct confrontation in the case of Kuvira/Korra.
The people of Yi were starving and liked the reprieve they were granted by the arrival of the army. It's like Opal said to Bolin during the standoff in Zaofu, "They might have been happy when you first arrived, but I've seen what happens after you leave. Citizens are forced to work as slave labor, dissenters are sent off to who-knows-where!" But as I noted when I made that remark: it's "plausible", I didn't say it was the truth, as -again, as noted before- it's conjecture either way. There is simply not sufficient objective data to make that call. Lady Lostris vstf (talk • HotN) 16:45, October 9, 2015 (UTC)
- You just admitted that the two of them had the same goal. How is that not a parallel? Both of them attempted to conquer the whole continent. Whether or not part of that continent was being ruled by a different nation is beside the point. How much land they ended up conquering is only a matter of how successful they were, and how much of the official Earth Kingdom's land they conquered is irrelevant. What matters is their shared goal.
- Before Wu was crowned, Kuvira was officially acting on his behalf. Thus, before that point, supporting Kuvira and supporting Wu weren't mutually exclusive.
- "As for the alleged "fighting" due to blowing his clothes away: that's an impossible feat (you simply cannot blow someone's clothes off like that without the person moving) added for comic relief more than anything else."
Stay in-universe please. This isn't about whether or not it's possible in real life. In real life people can't use chi to throw rocks at people or conjure fire from their fists. This is about what happened in the show. Kyoshi actually did that in the show, thus my point applies. (Bisides, it probably does become possible if the one having their clothes blown off is an Earthbender, and could theoretically use his bending to secure his footing.)
- My point wasn't about if Chin actually fought with Kyoshi, though I do think what happened between them counts. Go back and read my post. I said "challenged". Incidentally, I'm not the only one who refers to Chin vs Kyoshi as a fight. The trivia section of the page Avatar mentions a fact from the extras for The Avatar and the Fire Lord that those who fight with the Avatar in the Avatar State end up looking stupid, and uses the fight between Chin and Kyoshi as an example. This makes sense, because at the time that episode was released, Chin vs Kyoshi and what happened with that Eath Kingdom General from the start of Book II were the only previous examples of an Avatar State opponent being humiliated, so that extra implies that the creators view it as a fight.
- Fine. I'll leave popularity out of it. That still leaves the other parallels I've mentioned. --StefCW (wall • contribs) 17:23, October 13, 2015 (UTC)
- "You just admitted that the two of them had the same goal. How is that not a parallel?"
- Aang and Zuko wanted peace in the EK after the Hundred Year War. Kuvira wanted peace. So there is a parallel between them just because they have a common goal? The importance of the comparison between Kuvira and Chin is that while they may have intended the same, Kuvira succeeded, Chin didn't.
- "Before Wu was crowned, Kuvira was officially acting on his behalf."
- Not necessarily. She was appointed by the world leaders -so not necessarily even by choice of Wu himself. To act on someone's behalf means, "to do something for someone else; to act as the representative of someone." Kuvira was the representative of world peace, basically, not specifically Wu.
- "Stay in-universe please. This isn't about whether or not it's possible in real life."
- When you're grasping straws in an attempt to declare a fight, the feasibility of that fight is most definitely relevant. While the Avatar verse using impossible bending, it is all based on real world martial arts. The clothing was comical relief -obviously- and thus should be disregarded.
- "Go back and read my post."
- Excellent response for the rest of your post.
- "that extra implies that the creators view it as a fight"
- That doesn't mean anything, since it was not the viewpoint of the creators, just from some other editor.
- "You just admitted that the two of them had the same goal. How is that not a parallel?"
- I'm not going to respond to most of this for the same reason you're not going to respond anymore. What I am going to respond to is your belief that if something in the show contradicts real-world logic, then that means it should be ignored. That is utterly ridiculous. If we did that, then so many things that are canon to the show would be dismissed. Aang's ability to survive a century entombed in ice? Impossible. The ability of multiple characters to survive without injury falls and impacts that would kill people in real life? Nope. A group of untrained children defeating armies of professional soldiers (the show's premise)? Unrealistic.
- The point I'm over-exaggerating is that if it's canon in the show, you cannot simply dismiss it based on how possible it is in real life. Kyoshi blowing Chin's clothes off with airbending is canon. It doesn't matter how much you don't think it's possible. It's canon.
- By the way, you completely ignored my attempt to explain why Chin might not have moved when Kyoshi airbent his clothes off. You are also basing your logic for that first point by ignoring the common goal of the two conquerors. Chin and Kuvira both set out to conquer the traditional Earth Kingdom. Neither of them succeeded (though Chin actually came closer than Kuvira). Kuvira conquering the de jure Earth Kingdom doesn't make her successful where Chin failed, because that wasn't Kuvira's actual goal. Her goal was to conquer the traditional Earth Kingdom. You consistently ignore that simple fact.--StefCW (wall • contribs) 20:10, October 14, 2015 (UTC)