Forums: War Room → Should the URN be considered a fifth nation?

Alright, I think I really need to make a page for this. Fairly recently, I have seen many edits and undone edits in the Four Nations page. Whenever someone adds the United Republic of Nations as an official fifth nation, it gets undone. I don't really know if it is a true nation, but here would be a good place to decide if it is. Personally, I think it's more of a republic than a nation, but I could be wrong. What does everybody think about this? Lemongrab 20:59, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

It could be a nation by definition, we need more history of the place though! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.103.17.49 (wall • contribs) This note was added on ~~~~~.

I don't think we should label URN as a fifth nation. The "four nations" have always corresponded to the four elements and the URN is run by representatives from the four traditional nations. "Four nations" was used in ATLA, even though there were three functioning countries. Unless we hear a canon source saying "five nations" or "fifth nation" we should leave things as they are. --AvatarRokus Ghost (Message me • Read my fanon) 23:21, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should label the URN as a complete, individual nation just yet. There are still essentially only four solid nations - Water Tribe, Earth Kingdom, Fire Nation and the Air Nomads, with the URN simply being composed of people from all these nations. I think it would be best to get a true confirmation. The Ultimate Waterbender 23:26, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

It seems to be it's own nation. It has it's own capital, currency, military, justice system, and government. Although a little more information would definitely be nice before deciding if it absolutely was a nation in and of itself. SukitheNinja (wall • contribs) 23:35, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

Even though the URN has it's own capital, currency, military, justice system, and government, that doesn't necessarily make it a nation. It gets support from all four nations instead of being independent. Lemongrab 2:55, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

I agree that it is not a nation because the four nations have been there from the beginning, and it seems as if everyone wants it to stay that way. Four are four and we shouldn't mess with that. Yamataak

The URN's got all that it needs to be considered a nation. The only argument, and it was the one used in the past, is that representatives from other nations take part in the government. However, they are there to insure the balance and to represent their cultures rather than to make decisions that specifically please their nation, as displayed multiple times in the seen Council meetings. I see nothing that would make us doubt its position as a separate nation. Matey Y. (talk • A:TLoM)  03:21, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

I thought that we already listed it as a fifth nation? Regardless, the URN is a nation that is neutral from the other four nations. It has an substantial population and unique culture apart from the rest of the nations. In a real-world comparison, the United Republic of Nations would be like the United States of America in the Avatar World: a melting pot of the other nations with a separate cultural identity. In the matter of relevance, the URN is very significant to the series as it is the setting where most of the action takes place in The Legend of Korra. --DivineElement Message 08:15, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

The United States is one of the largest (in area) and most populous nations in the world. A better analog for Republic City in our world would be Singapore. We call such things a city-state. Historically, there have been many, especially in ancient Greece and renaissance Italy but today we have just three totally independent and another two dozen that are not so independent. It gets complicated. DesertDog (wall) 11:09, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

I would hardly say it was dependent on the other nations. Yes, their council is made up of representatives from all four nations, they are just representatives. And I think we could look at that as how the U.S. has ambassadors living all over the world and has ambassadors from other countries living in it. Besides, when Amon laid seige on Republic City, they did not turn to any other nation for help, but rather called upon their own military. So I would say they are in fact an independent nation. SukitheNinja (wall • contribs) 15:25, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

Funny, I thought Australia was a melting pot? :D But, seriously, I think it should be a fifth nation. It is separate from the others,, has it's own unique style. Judging by the styles of fighting Korra learnt before she went there, they even have a different style of bending! On a large scale, so not including Yu Dao with the Earth and Fire civilians, the mixture of people from all over the world, along with the evolution of a new culture, including foods, language, art style. Also judging by Korra's lifestyle in the Southern Tribe Compound, there were few mechanical advances, compared to those in the URN. If it comes to a vote, I support its "disbandtion" from the Earth Kingdom as a separate nation. fruipy oaty bar это курам на смех 03:00, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. DesertDog is absolutely right; this is no fully-fledged nation, but a city state - which have been known to have their own military and international governance. Why, take the free city of Danzig as an example next to Germany. They are a confirmed city state paralleling a major industrialized city like Republic city, but has its own small military, its own governance, and a very small amount of land. It was not big enough to be called a nation, but not small enough to be dismissed out of hand. KettleMeetPot (wall • contribs) 15:32, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

When has it ever been stated that Republic City is all the URN consists of? If anything, official sources allude to the fact that there is much more URN territory outside Republic City. The URN was formed from the old Fire Nation Colonies in the Earth Kingdom. According to The Promise Trilogy comics, there were eight Fire Nation Colonies, which leads us to believe that the URN is at least that large. It is too big to be a mere city-state, large enough for a nation. For all we know, it could be larger than the Air Nation, which seemed pretty small. The URN resembles the US, it is an independent country. SparksFromHades (wall • contribs) 15:48, July 1, 2012 (UTC)SparksFromHades

I do not think the URN should be considered a fifth nation. The nation was formed less than 70 years ago, there are likely still many original immigrants from other nations residing in the city; others are close descendants of theirs. The URN is not sovereign state, it does not have an independent government or head of state. It is a republic governed by representatives from the other four nations. The fact that it consists of additional land beyond Republic City doesn't matter, RC is the capital and the seat of its the government. Basically what everyone else has said. ^^ Annawantimes (Talk) 16:08, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

Bryke refers to it as a nation in this video:http://nicktoons.nick.com/videos/clip/path-to-korra-mike-and-brian-1.html Suzon | Talk ^co Fanon

NEVERMIND, IT SAID COUNTRY Suzon | Talk ^co Fanon

If Bryke said it was a country, then does that officially make the URN a nation? Lemongrab 17:18, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

I actually think it should be considered a fifth nation. Bryke has called it an independent country, as shown above. However, I do see why some people would be against it, so I suggest we wait until The Promise, part 3 arrives. I am sure that will provide us with information on the topic. DarkKnightRises (wall • contribs) 18:15, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

It shouldn't matter how many years it's been around in determining whether it's a nation or not. It many be a new nation, but it's own separate country. The U.S. has been around for a relatively short period of time compared to other countries, more people immigrate here every day and more people become citizens every day. So it really shouldn't matter where the URN's citizens come from, the fact is that they're still URN citizens. And it does have it's independent government, as was said above, the fact that they are representatives from the other nations is just so that balance can be maintained throughout the world. From what was seen in the series, they don't take any orders from their home nations, and are fully URN citizens. SukitheNinja (wall • contribs) 23:24, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

These are all really good points, but in the end it's going to come down to this. Should we define the URN by what the co-creator says, or by what the official definition of a nation says? Lemongrab 23:54, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

The URN is no more a nation as Washing DC is a state. it's there, it's separate and sovereign as seen by other powers, but by many means, the URN isn't fit to be what's referred to as a nation.

the republic simply isn't doing what sovereign govermnets do, it isn't signing treaties, it isn't gaining land through force, i haven't seen them send diplomats out, though that may be a thing. this city is an agreement between the four nations. any power it has has been given to it by the nations that founded it. just because the Nations have their hands off of it, doesn't mean that it's equal with those nations

maybe it's like a micronation. that'd be an interesting research topic, at the same time, the city itself, as i've said, is like a physical manifestation of a peace treaty, not only founded by one nation like we see in real life, but by all three (and endorsed by the Avatar, representing the Air Nomads). maybe a micronation, certainly not a full-blown one. not by a long shot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paragonofvalor (wall • contribs) This note was added on 14:03, July 2, 2012 (UTC).

To lemongrab: Bryke calls the URN a country, and that is pretty much the exact same thing as a nation. Both Zuko and Mai refer to the Fire Nation as a "country" at one point. So it doesn't really matter which one you call it. To whoever-wrote-before-me-but-did-not-sign: You do make a very good point in bringing that up. And though i doubt that the URN is going to be taking territory by force anytime soon, besides the events that took place during The Hundred Year War, the other four nations don't really do that either. All four nations clearly had their own territory in which they stuck to. The only instance of that ever happening is when the Fire Nation settled the Earth Kingdom colonies, which are what the URN is made of. And no mention of treaties between the other nations has ever been made. They're supposed to live in harmony by themselves, and the URN was made to maintain it. It is supposed to be the harmony hub of the world, a melting pot of cultures, just like the USA. As for sending out diplomats, maybe that's something they would do when there is a dispute between the other nations. But the thing is, there really hasn't been enough politics shown in the series to provide information as to whether or not they do do that. As for all it's power being given to it, its true that the nations did found it, but it has its own currency, government, military, etc. So if, theoretically of course, war did break out, it could probably hold it's own. SukitheNinja (wall • contribs) 03:17, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that we simply let the current status quo stand. The four nations article really refers to a concept, not an overview of the nations of the world. We have it because the concept is referred to so often – the need to keep them balanced, the correlation with the four elements etc. "The four nations are meant to be just that: four." We've never heard of a "five nation" concept; therefore, nothing needs to be done. The debate on the side about sovereignty is interesting (though some terms seem to have been misused), but ultimately won't decide anything content-wise. The 888th Avatar (talk) 14:15, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, so I guess the page for the four nations won't change to five nations anytime soon. I get what 888 is saying, but the URN is technically a nation if it was called a country by the co-creator. I think we need to reach some sort of compromise. Lemongrab 16:09, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

It must be noted that, there is a BIG difference between a country and a nation. A country is a geopolitical entity, physically defined, often multicultural, whereas a nation is a "community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history" (quoting wikipedia) and doesn't have any physical borders. So, please don't mix-up the two. TheBloodbender • ^{Say hi!} 16:14, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well, there isn't much to compromise on, but as I said, we should simply let the status quo stand. We label the URN a "republic", which is merely a form of government, and may or may not suggest nationhood. Though I believe the evidence suggests the URN is not a sovereign state (I've written on this in previous forum discussions), leaving this ambiguity is probably least contentious and is probably best. The 888th Avatar (talk) 17:02, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Alrighty then. From now on, the URN cannot be listed as a nation in the Four Nations page. I think we should leave some sort of note for people not to list it as one to prevent further confusion. Lemongrab 17:59, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to bloodbender for pointing out the difference between a country and a nation, I really had no idea there even was a difference. But anyway, not to list it as an acutal nation like the other four but just as it's own country seems like a fair decision. SukitheNinja (wall • contribs) 23:56, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

So does this mean the discussion is over? Lemongrab 00:43, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

Seems like it. SukitheNinja (wall • contribs) 10:59, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I think we can live with this. However, even if it is not totally necessary, perhaps we could create a new article parallel to the "Four Nations"-article. A new article about known countries and their history. I come up with this idea not only because of the United Republic, a new founded country, but also because of other examples: Like the Air nation, the successor "country" of the Air Nomads, or Chin's empire (Chin's empire was rather short-living and not a real state, but however it has even its own people, who still existing 300 years later). It is only a idea, but I want to mention it. DyingFlameTsui (wall • contribs) 17:39, July 3, 2012 (UTC)DyingFlameTsui