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|Amon and Tarrlok are considered to be dead.|
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This has been added to several articles, and I figured it would be a good idea to get a discussion going before any edit warring. At the end of the last episode, Tarrlok used an electrified glove to ignite the gas in the speedboat, causing the boat to explode. The issue we have is whether this means Amon and Tarrlok are dead; we did not actually see them die per se, and no one later said they were dead. We saw the boat they were riding in explode, but I do not think this is enough to say conclusively that they are dead. If there is the possibility they are alive, the articles should reflect this.
I'm going to say that they are alive. Suicide is far too dark for a TV-Y7 show, therefore we must conclude that there is at least some possibility that the two are alive.Truly Ferret (a •) 18:27, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
I think Brychael want us to assume their dead. So for the sake of suspension of disbelief I think we should assume that until something is otherwise confirmed. Koh Koh the face stealer 18:31, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
- They are dead. Showing the meat getting ripped off their bones or their post-explosion mutilated bodies is dark for a TV-Y7 show. hence, only the explosion was shown. Also, I say within a week we will have some sort of article or interview or something by Bryan/Mike/others, saying they really died. Also, I don't know how what-I-am-about-to-say is of any relevance in this discussion, but the only in-universe people who know of their deaths is themselves, and since they died, no one alive knows that they died. TheBloodbender • Say hi! 18:35, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
There is absolutely no way to tell if they somehow survived or if they died. The logical assumption is that they died, but there's no factual evidence. I say that we leave it undetermined until further notice.18:37, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
- They are presumed dead. Even if they are alive, they are not coming back: Bryke said Nick wants a new threat for each season, making the story self-contained like 24. — Hasdi Bravo • 18:46, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with Omar. Even if we presume they are dead, writing "they are dead" is wrong. We have only assumed this, and so it is speculation. Until we get solid proof from the writers (i.e. something like "Yes, Amon and Tarrlok are dead") I think we should leave it undetermined as Tech said. HAMMEROFTHOR 18:51, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
- No offense but listing them "dead (presumed)" is ridiculous. They exploded. Tarrlok had no bending to protect him at all and Amon never saw to blast coming, so there is /no way/ that he would be quick enough to put up some sort of shield. The creators also said that the series is build up to have a villain per season. This would be the perfect way to get rid of Amon. The "Y7" and "it's on nick" argument does not make sense. They never showed bodies, did they? It is okay to imply dead to keep that rating. Hell, ATLA was about a genocide and an all out war, you think that are typical Y7 topics? They should be listed dead, that is the most encyclopedic thing to do, and it is no speculation. I don't see why we need to debate over every little thing nowadays. Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 14:31, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that writing "dead (presumed)" is not right, but just because there is going to be a new villain next season, it doesn't necessarily mean Amon and Tarrlok are dead. The two are not mutually exclusive. I don't think it is so far fetched that they could be alive, and the writers intended it to remain ambiguous so they could bring the two back in the future if they so desired. Whilst the possibility exists they could be alive, we shouldn't assume they are dead. If we have to write something, can we not write something like "Missing in Action". That allows the possibility for either situation, without assuming anything. HAMMEROFTHOR 14:48, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
- As said on another forum, this "no speculation" thing is going, way, but then I do mean way too far. We need to stop doubting every little thing, if we keep that up, we will not be able to add anything in the future without debating it over and over, and who wants to stick around with that? We need to be more decisive again and stop dancing around every little thing? They exploded, Amon was not supposed to be in the next season, Tarrlok was sitting less than a meter from the explosion when it happened, Amon maybe 2, so there is no logival way either of them could've survived. So let us take a step down from the "no speculation" movement and actually start adding information. Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 15:08, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
- But this isn't a little thing - this is a major issue that has been added on several articles. We can't start saying that people shouldn't add speculation on articles, if we are going to allow speculation ourselves. To my mind, the explosion of the boat is ambiguous; it is possible they were killed, but at the same time, I think there is also the possibility they survived, and their future was left ambiguous to allow the writers the chance to bring either character back. Leaving a characters fate ambiguous is hardly something that has never been seen before on TV, so I don't see that assuming this as a possibility is so far fetched. If we leave the characters fate undetermined, we haven't assumed anything, the article remains free of speculation but we can still add the necessary information. HAMMEROFTHOR 15:29, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
- Lostris, you cannot say "so there is no logival way either of them could've survived" in this TV show. There is no logical way Aang survived using Spirit Water. You're talking about real-world logic where it shouldn't, and can't, exist. The bender;s should have their backs broken hundreds of times by now from how rough they fight. But, I'm getting off the subject. You said yourself that we try and avoid speculation. With little evidence showing that they are dead, stating it could be construed as speculation. We refused to put Amon as an energybender, even though evidence pointed to him being an energybender. I will feel incredibly stupid if I said they were dead, and then they made a reappearance Fruipit (wall • contribs)
- This is indeed a major thing and every logical option says that they're dead. Letting either of them survive that blast would really be a lame story with no good explanation.
- This is exactly what I meant with "we are taking this too far". What we ask of people is not to add things as "Zuko's daughter is named Ursa, and she's the mother of Iroh 2é", whereas this would be "logically backed up, only explanation" speculation. I'd rather list that, than a widely unprofessional "dead (presumed)", cause there is always the slim possibility someone survives a blast from 2 meters away in the back. We need to start adding what we see in the series and in the series they are shown to be dead. Our own doubt makes us think otherwise, but then we could even say that not adding it would be speculation as every canonical thing points to them being dead, but our own doubt would make us not list that. If we start/continued to work like that, we can eventually not add anything anymore. Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 15:51, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
- @Lostris - I hardly consider "they are dead" to be the only explanation, for the many reasons I have already given. I don't think we should add "presumed to be dead" as yes, that is unprofessional, but at the same time I think adding they are definitely dead to be speculation. That was why I suggested adding that they were considered to be "Missing in Action"; that allows for the possibility that they are alive, or the possibility they are dead. Is there is some doubt, playing it safe is better than adding something that could end up being wrong. Just because this would be a lame plot point, doesn't mean it isn't going to happen. HAMMEROFTHOR 17:14, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
- I agree. Let's presume them to be dead. I know this is fiction - comic books are also notorious coming up with retcons to bring characters back to life. If Bryke to decide to bring them back, we'll edit them as "apparently died" or something. For now, they are dead. D-E-A-D. dead. — Hasdi Bravo • 17:23, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
- HOT, there is not reasonable way to think that they survived. The fact that no one mentioned their deaths is a moot point cause 1. It's possible that people don't know as no one seemed to be around when the boat exploded or 2. it was just not mentioned, as so many things were left open. It was never said that RC was freed from the mecha tanks that were posted on every corner nor was it never said that Hiroshi was imprisoned, so should we list that RC is still under Equalist control and Hiroshi is left lying bound and electrocuted on the floor of the airfield? Cause that's all we know. Our logic tells us he later got apprehended and imprisoned, just as our logic does not prompt us to add that RC was and still is under Equalist control, though neither of those things were confirmed. Back to topic, we know that Tarrlok laid his hand with an electrified glove on the fuel tank in order to blow it up, so we know that he was less than a meter away. We know how small the boat was, so we know that Amon -with his back to Tarrlok and the tank- was in a 2 meter radius at the most, and we know that the boat went boom. As with the same logic that prompts us to say Hiroshi was apprehended and RC was freed, we are able to tell that Tarrlok and Amon are dead. Outside canon fact are only feeding that point as it was stated Amon was only mean for season one. So why doubt everything? If our fear of adding the most plausible and practically confirmed, but not explicitly shown information will hold us back each time, we can hardly add anything beyond an episode transcript. Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 17:40, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
- Omar, you are comparing apples and bananas here. Zuko's case was widely different. 1. He knew the attack was happening and 2. He was a firebender prepared to deal with it. As was visible on screenshots (1 and 2), he created a protective shield. That's his case. Now we have a waterbender who did not know and was in no way prepared to deal with it. See how those cases are totally different and incomparable? Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 17:40, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
- Logic stated that the airbender in the LOK opening sequence was Aang, but we still didn't say it was him. Why? Because we didn't have 100% proof it was him, and therefore the possibility still existed that it was someone else, even though logic stated otherwise. We saw Tarrlok reaching towards the fuel tank, and the boat exploding. Logic may say they are dead, but I still maintain there is a possibility they are alive, since bringing back characters who appeared to have died is a common story telling method. Why not play it safe and listed them as MIA. There is a difference between doubting everything that was said, and playing it safe with such a major point. If we want to remain objective, then surely it is better to list it in this way. It is likely that the issue of whether they died will be revealed by the writers in the future, so until that happens, I believe it is better to play it safe if the possibility exists of their being alive. HAMMEROFTHOR 18:22, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
They maybe dead because it seems like the creators, just gave them a cheap back story just to get rid of them. Antagonist+Back Story just about always means that this is the last time we are going to see them. Plus the creators said that this series was once the whole Legend of Korra story so, they ended it in this sad, dumb way. No resolution. I'm starting to think they are dead.--Omar067 (wall • contribs) 18:27, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
Lady Lostris has a point here. i think its safe to say that Tarrlok is dead. perhaps their cases are different. Tarrlok is the one who blew up the ship, that we know. he could not have survived that, his arm was connected to it. Now, i believe Amon is dead, but he was further away and he could have used the water in some fashion to protect himself. perhaps dead for tarrlok and Amon is dead (presumed). Rydersilver (wall • contribs) 19:07, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, we did not add him there as there was still the logical explanation that it would be Tenzin who looked more or less the same, but I'll give you that we could've listed him there immediately as well -which we btw did in the end before the episode airs, so in the end, it now more serves as a point pro assuming that they're dead and allowing reasonable assumptions than again it.
- Listing them MIA is also speculation and it would even be more so than listing them as dead. All the evidence and logics points toward dead, so why hold one to some MIA which is speculative as well?
- Rydersilver, no "dead (presumed)" will be added, as that looks incredibly unprofessional. There is no way anyone can survive a blast from a 2 meter radius in the back. Why are we so willing to doubt everything and thus sabotage our own goal to be encyclopedic? Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 19:13, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
- As I remember it, it was left undetermined, then added as Aang with a note, then later removed for being speculation, then re-added when evidence was given in the show. Listing them as MIA allows for the possibility they have been killed, but also that they were merely wounded, or simply disappeared. Don't see how that is speculation, since it allows each case rather than suggesting either. I figured that was a good compromise, since it allows us to say that something actually happened, without making assumptions on what the exact outcome was. If it is later revealed they are dead, we can add that in, if they are later shown to be alive, the same. HAMMEROFTHOR 20:06, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
So once again, we would carry the "anything needs to be confirmed" thing too far and add something that we know is not the truth and overlook the obvious truth that they're death, just because we are set to doubt everything. Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 21:32, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
- 1) This is not just anything but a major point. Being sure about this is important, since whether Amon and Tarrlok died is a major issue.
- 2) How is labelling them MIA not the truth. If we except the possibility they may be alive, but also allow the possibility they may be dead, this is perfectly acceptable, since it allows both to be true.
- 3) From my perspective, I do not believe it to be so obvious.
- If we label them MIA, we can add an additional line saying "later revealed to be ..." if/when their fate is revealed. If we added they died, and it was later revealed they were alive (however minuscule this possibility is) how is that going to look - they died, but were later revealed to have lived. Isn't that more unprofessional? HAMMEROFTHOR 21:43, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
- Seeing as we're apparently playing the "OH NOES THERES NO 100% CONFIRMATON WE CANT ADD THAT!" game, this probably will be a moot point, but consider this.
- Tarrlok (or however the hell you spell his name...) and Amon were on a boat, in open water, no land around for miles. An explosion happens. That explosion, even if we don't have "100% proof" and even if they didn't die immediately, absolutely, pretty much irrefutably either knocked Amon and Tarrlok unconscious or rendered them severely injured, likely unable to move, think straight, or bend. What happens to Tarrlok? He immediately sinks, and thus drowns within a certain amount of time. As for Amon, if he's unconscious or doesn't have the strength/reason, given his damaged state, to bend his way out of this mess, he meets the exact same fate. PLOP! Down to the sea bottom they go, left to die.
- Even if they don't go unconscious immediately, the trauma they suffered as well as the blood loss they will surely endure will knock them unconscious after awhile. But, what's this, OH NO! They could swim ashore! Yeahhhh...no. Amon and Tarrlok were, as I said, miles from any strip of land at all, whatsoever.
I partially agree with both sides, because both have merit. However, I also agree with Lady when she says this whole "everything needs to be confirmed" tenet is becoming overkill. "Amon and Tarrlok riding on a boat that blows up" is not the same as "Jet lying on the floor badly mangled and someone implies he's going to die but we never get to see it". There's hardly any ambiguity in the former. They blew up. Ok, we didn't see their corpses, but we can at least say "they seemingly died". Some common sense has to be exercised here. The few instances where characters survive an exploding vehicle is in bad writing written by bad writers who want to bring back popular characters. ― Thailog 22:11, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
I have to agree with HammerOfThor and say "MIA" is the most viable option at the moment. Yes, it looked like they died, but relying on "logic" in a show like this with "manipulating the elements" is ludicrous. Anything can happen in this show. Yes, we didn't see either make a shield like Zuko, but the camera zoomed out and maybe they have different ways of making shields. They are extremely powerful benders and again, anything could've happened. It's a 50% chance they are dead and a 50% chance they are not. We shouldn't assume one over the other just because that's what would happen if actual people were in this situation because they are not actual people. It's an animated cartoon. Regardless, the fact that neither will be the main antagonist of the second season does not support the argument that they have died. Tarrlok clearly had a change of heart and, if he had survived, he definitely would not have become a villain (although this is speculation itself) and I think the same way for Tarrlok. Yes, Lady Lotris, we shouldn't need confirmation for every little thing but in a situation where two characters face an ambiguous death, I think confirmation is needed. Heck, people were jumping on the boat to say Iroh was Bumi's son because of their collars and after hearing the dialogue in the last two episodes, I'm doubting that myself. Confirmation is needed. MaKorra2012.
- Gah... This is just like Combustion Man and skepticism about his death. We saw the telltale firecracker pops happening right in front of his forehead. We see the entire upside-down tower he was on fall. We saw his gauntlet fall into the abyss. And people still doubted he had died. And then along comes Bryke who were facepalming over the whole ordeal, and said it explicitly: Combustion Man died. Would you have liked to see his entire skull get atomized by the explosion flashpoint that happened right in front of it? I don't think so. The Sons of Yakone are dead. Their deaths were depicted as explicitly as a Y7-rated show would allow.--MadCat221 (wall • contribs) 05:09, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
- @MaKorra2012: They're not extremely powerful benders, Amon is, but Tarrlok could not bend at that time and Amon had his back to the explosion, so there is no way he could've protected him from the blast. And of course the camera zoomed out, they are not going to show a body ripped to shreds by a detonation on a Y7 show. They can allude it, but will never show it. And why would "the show is about bending" have to mean we should throw any logic out of the window? If people in the Avatar World are hit by a blast, are cut, eat something poisonous, they still die. All our logical reasons still apply there, the only difference is that they can manipulate the elements.
- People seriously need to stop thinking that every unconfirmed piece of information is on the same level. We have facts here: 2 people on a boat far away from any land, one non-bender detonates the boat, they are both in a two meter radius, and the only bender was 1. a waterbender and 2. stood with his back to the explosion totally unaware of what was happening. Do you really think that assuming there that they indeed died is on the same level as "they have a similar skin complexion and they talked fondly about each other, they must be related"?
On another note, what about Lieutenant? I think it was heavily implied that Amon killed him (why wouldn't he?) but again, it's not confirmed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (wall • contribs) 11:38, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
- That's indeed another note, as there we just don't know. No explicitly mortal dangers were shown. We know Amon bloodbended him, hurt him, and tossed him aside, but that's it. He could've survived that as he has been tossed off roof etc before and survived as well. Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 09:39, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
- Having Lieutenant survive would make sense for the next season: there's still residual anti-Bender sentiment, and the Equalist cause may still be there, albeit weakened, and Lieutenant might take charge. Maybe now that they're free of having a charismatic radical harnessing a personality cult, they might be a bit more rational about things. But... unlike the Sons of Yakone, Lieutenant's current whereabouts and condition actually are nebulous. --MadCat221 (wall • contribs) 23:31, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
I think it's pretty obvious that they did not die, what are they going to be doing next season? Amon's got have an appearance again. Also I love the fact that they did not base this all on 1 thing, that is the Equalists and hopefully they have an even more amazing season 2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ToeTacTic (wall • contribs) 11:45, 25 June 2012
- As stated above, it has always been a villain per season, so Amon is not and never was intended to come back for season 2. For the longest time, TLoK was just supposed to be a mini-series, just this one season, but then that changed. However, the plan "one season, one villain", did not, so there is no place for Amon to return to. This is how they ended his story line. The Equalist might go on, but not Amon. Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 09:53, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
- Tarrlok knew what he was doing; he saw his brother's ways, he saw the Equalist gloves and equipment Noatok took along with him (perhaps even resenting him as well for intending to carry on his malicious ways "The two of us again; there's nothing we can't do"). He wanted an end to end this tragedy, but apparently Noatok had other ideas. He saw his chance, and decided he's going to end it, right then and there - he's going to kill Noatok, even if it means killing himself too. I believe his intent alone should be enough to deem them dead after seeing that explosion. If not, the magnitude of the explosion on that small speedboat would've ripped them apart. Axiovatar 10:16, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
I don't believe it should say that they are dead. We don't know, and it would be just like Bryke to make it seem like they died, and keep them alive, like how the Pirates tried to kill Zuko. But, then again, it could be a deus ex machina so they no longer had to think about them. I vote we stop saying they are dead, because as we know, we all thought Amon was an energybender, and that obviously
was a silly idea didn't work Fruipit (wall • contribs) 10:28, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
- Pirates rebuttal: see above.
- And no, we did not all thought Amon was an energybender, so that is a hasty, and wrongful generalization to try to make a point here. They are dead all the facts point in that direction, even the damn music eludes to a fateful event. Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 10:41, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
- Better safe than sorry... The Kid 100% (wall • contribs) & TLAT
- So it is better to you to not add anything than add what is correct? That will get us to our goal of being the best Avatar encyclopedia. Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 11:16, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
- Better safe than sorry... The Kid 100% (wall • contribs) & TLAT
I took the liberty of taking a screenshot: here. That is Amon with the blue-ish light shining on his face from the electrified glove that Tarrlok is igniting over the fuel tank right behind him. We have prove that Tarrlok ignited it and that Amon was standing super close. He did not even glance back, nor shows any sign of recognition of what Tarrlok is doing. They blow up together, they're dead. There is no need to list presumably, or MIA, they are just simply dead. Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 13:09, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
Now I can't get over the fact that people are so unwilling to believe the Lieutenant is dead and yet it's so obvious that the brothers are. Simply because of location? Flashback to Aang hanging on to drift wood in "The Awakening". User:MaKorra2012 12:47, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
- Do you just get a kick of contradicting people? Please, read all the comments above and think about them, then read them again, and tell me if you think that your suggestion still holds merit to it. And when you read the comments, please do not forget that the blue light of the electricity could already be seen on Amon's face. On another note, have you ever -be it in real live, be it on television- see a case where an inflammable substance meets fire take a while to explode? It is not only the fuel that exploded there, but also the working motor of the boat which sped up the process of oil being swirled around etc. So please, just read all what I said above again, that should point out very well why your suggestion cannot stand. Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 20:10, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
Lady Lotris, that is not the blue light of electricity going through his body. His face would be contorted. It is merely the light reflecting off of his skin. I think people should be more open to both sides.... MaKorra2012 16:23, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
- Of course it is not the blue light of the electricity going through his body, it is the light of the glove Tarrlok ignited over the fuel tank. Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 20:30, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, let me say that I am new to the discussion, so I'll try to catch on as soon as possible. I am for them being named deceased. We presume that they are dead, as no one comes out alive from such an explosion... and they were in the middle of it! If anyone else watched the episode closely, I was left with the feeling that Amon knew his brother was blowing him up: didn't hey say that Amon could sense your movements through bloodbending; didn't a tear slide down Amon's face just before Tarrlok blew them up? These suggest a dramatic turn of events, from which you don't come out alive. But away from almost certainty, it is better to call them deceased. It is no speculation: it is logic. Until proven otherwise, they are dead. (Plus people in the middle of the ocean don't easily survive. I don't see how Bryke inventing a story of someone saving them - or their corpse.) 00:06, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- People in the middle of the ocean don't survive easily UNLESS they find driftwood which Aang did in "The Awakening". He was in a deadly state as well. Also, Amon didn't know his brother was blowing him up. That's something we can actually be 100% sure of. He would've stopped Tarrlok. And if that's why he was crying, then Amon has 0 character development. The point of him crying was to show the nostalgia and longing for family and how life was before Yakone had expressed his "endeavors" in Republic City. MaKorra2012 1:10 AM, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- For god's sake, the boat was blown to smithereens! The mushroom cloud was clear enough of an indication that the explosion is capable of disintegrating the entire boat. The tear might express his feelings of nostalgia, but so what? Read my comment above. Tarrlok wanted to die with Noatok; it was his sole intention. Or else why would you fatally injure your brother, but wanted both to live on? It just doesn't make sense. And even if you so happened to survive and found a suitable driftwood, the resulting injury from the explosion would cripple any bender's body, enough that they wouldn't be able to bend themselves to safety. And as a plus: Bryke wanted a new villan for each season; killing both Amon and Tarrlok would be the perfect way to achieve this. Axiovatar 05:21, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
I'd like to add something to my initial argument. At the end of Crossroads of Destiny, Aang was shot with lightning at point blank; now logic would say that he is dead, but as we saw, he lived. Suppose that season 2 had ended just after he had been shot with lightning; by logic, we would have listed him as deceased, but this would have been wrong. Since the Avatar world is not the real world, we cannot make the assumption that something which would be life threatening in the real world has to be life threatening in the Avatar world, as per my example above. Just as Aang did not die, there is always the possibility that Amon and/or Tarrlok did not die. As this possibility exists, listing them as deceased is premature until we receive confirmation, and why I believe we should list them as MIA. HAMMEROFTHOR 08:46, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Hammer, there is very little ambiguous about the explosion that ripped apart the boat. In both the Avatar world and the real world, that sort of thing is very much life threatening; take it with this type of logic - if it destroyed the boat, then it can very likely easily give someone a fatal injury when in close proximity. Looking at the scene, you would have to concede that the explosion very much engulfed the boat, and that Tarrlok is most likely dead, as he was next to the explosion, and expressed the intent to end his own life along with that of his brother. Amon also is likely to be dead or severely injured, but I would stick with the former given the entire boat was demolished, and my above logic.
- You must also concede that after having lost the support of his Equalists, and with the fact that he wanted a new beginning, there is no one to rescue Amon or his brother at the remains boat. Plus, having reviewed the footage, they were in the middle of the ocean, with no Republic City in sight or land in sight. Waterbending takes effort. To get back to Republic City or any piece of land would be tremendously hard. If they were injured (as is next likely, if not dead) then their chances of survival are very low.
- Of course, this does not discount the possibility that they may have survived, but it safely gives us the "presumed death" scenario as an implication - the odds are severely stacked against their chances of survival. You also need to take into account how the creators wanted to tie up the ends of these two characters, as they are not stated to appear again in the next season. All in all, the title of "presumed dead" should stay. When dealing with the implied, we should stick with the likeliest scenario of events. "Wrong" or "Right" has no bearing on this discussion. (In my opinion) it is pretty clear that there may not be an answer ever given. KettleMeetPot (wall • contribs) 09:08, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- This is ridiculous. Of course, there's the slim possibility they survived, but all evidence points to the contrary. Bryke is giving us the impression they died, and so our articles should reflect that. It isn't "presumably deceased", it's "deceased", plain and simple. And is the support of 132 Tumblr users viable? ;) Because the wiki is being ridiculed... We saw them in a boat, which exploded seconds later. They are dead. Rassilon of Old (Wall - Help) 11:42, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- I agree. I can't believe we now go on and on about such minutiae. The only thing no one suggested so far is that Amon planned it all along and that's why he planted the electrified gloves on the boat, so that he could fake his death. Give me a break. Can't we just stick with what we saw? The boat exploded. That's the end of it. ― Thailog 11:51, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- How we can we say we remain objective if we are going to say "there's the chance they are still alive, but lets put them as deceased anyway, since that chance is so small". We cannot start adding something because it is the likely scenario. If something has a 60% chance of being true, that is the likely scenario, but there is still a 40% chance it is wrong. Adding "presumed deceased" is unprofessional, which is why I would favour listing them as MIA.
- Since apparently there is no possible scenario in which Amon can live, consider this: Amon is injured by the explosion but still alive. He is found drifting half unconscious by a family of benders who are out fishing, who not knowing who he is, take him into their home to nurse him back to health, thereby proving to Amon that not all benders are bad. Is that such a far fetched scenario that it couldn't happen. HAMMEROFTHOR 12:03, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed. And Hammer, that is still REALLY far-fetched. I mean, absurdly so. And I don't think with all that padding, he would drift too well, if Avatar physics works like the real world. And family fishing? That far out into the ocean? I think I've said all that need to be said.
- (Edit conflict) Let's stick to the facts, not what can be dreamed up to save these two. What we saw was their boat soundly explode, and there was no activity for a little bit afterwards. And anything that can completely destroy a boat can easily kill a man. Logical, no?
- And about that 60%/40% scenario, you seem to overlook the fact that the odds just aren't that even. This is a particular case, with its own set of probabilities. The fact is, the explosion occurred, and chance is skewed massively into the favour of their deaths, whether they survived the initial explosion or not. Which thus, overturns your point. And you forget, but this entire thing is SUBJECTIVE, whether you like it or not. We won't be given confirmation, and we will have to use our own judgement to decide what happened to them. Just like in the case of Jet's death. KettleMeetPot (wall • contribs) 12:16, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- As I said, that was a possible scenario of how Amon could have survived, since apparently, there is no possible way it could happen. I believe saying he is absolutely, 100%, no-possible-way-back dead to be speculative. You admit there is still a tiny chance, which is my exact point, and yet I'm still wrong to say he could have survived. People have been saying "it is the most likely scenario", "it is very unlikely he managed to survive" - these are likelihoods and not definite, and therefore speculation. HAMMEROFTHOR 12:22, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- HammerOfThor, there is a point where objectivity in matters of implication just becomes ridiculous. There ARE instances of speculation on the wiki, because the creators depend on the fact we are smart enough to figure things out on a Kid's show, where some things just cannot be shown or outright said. KettleMeetPot (wall • contribs) 12:27, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Look, since the odds are clearly stacked against Amon being alive, how about we end this discussion here (with Amon listed as deceased), and keep it as so until proven otherwise in the next series? Axiovatar 12:29, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- I was thinking of removing the word "deceased" entirely and replace with whatever fate that he has then (IF he's still alive). Sounds better? Axiovatar 12:38, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- HammerOfThor, we'll cross that bridge if we have too. If he's revealed to be alive then that's just bad writing, which frankly will reflect poorly on the creators, not on us... ― Thailog 12:40, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) But how will that look within an article, like at the end of the synopsis for Endgame. If you say "he is deceased", you have to write "they died", but if it is later revealed they lived, what would you write? HAMMEROFTHOR 12:42, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Just remove that sentence, or something alone the lines of "Amon's speedboat exploded in a ball of fire". No mentioning of his fate whatsoever. Axiovatar 12:47, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- (facepalm) Of course not! We would include him as deceased in every possible outlet for now; when his inexplicable "revival" occurs in the next season, we would then replace all of them (any info on Amon's fate found in articles exclusive to the first season) as undetermined. Besides, we wouldn't be adding stuff like "Amon died in the resulting explosion... but was found alive in the next season" now, would we? It's redundant/irrelevant to say the least. Do keep in mind that this would be in effect only when he is explicitly shown/stated to be alive.
- In short: We list Amon as deceased now in every possible outlet (article, infobox, synopsis). And when he is revealed to be alive, then we'll replace all of it. It's as simple as that. Axiovatar 13:12, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, it promotes objectivity by reducing the need of listing every detail as "presumed". And Lol, indeed; It seems that Tarrlok's inferiority to his brother carries on, even outside of the Avatar world. Axiovatar 13:24, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
I don't see how since objectivity means making decisions without interpretation. If we go back and reverse what is said, what we had was an interpretation and therefore not objective. HAMMEROFTHOR 13:38, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Just like what KettleMeetsPot said. In such cases where death cannot be explicitly shown but could only be strongly implied, we can't really do much but to interpret Bryke's hint as fact (being objective), and that is Amon and Tarrlok got blown to tiny little bits in the explosion, and are therefore dead. If we can't even be firm and confident on every little information we put up in this wiki and instead choose words such as "presumably", "might be", probably", then we can't really improve on anything anymore without doubting our own words. See, we're going in circles again. Weee Axiovatar 13:54, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- I think it can be settled right now. Even in court they are not 100% sure about a case: they have to rely on evidence. They weren't there. The same way with us. Bryke's intentions were obvious and what happened was obvious: you don't just survive a huge explosion. 14:42, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
I say we list them as deceased. It is common logic that applies to both our world and the Avatar world. Tarrlok puts on a equalist glove and puts his hand on the gas tank. Amon goes on and on about how he is happy him and his brother are together again and that they can do anything together and he sheds a tear. Then we see a flash of blue light and afterwards we see a huge explosion take place in the middle of the ocean. Which is so big it makes a mushroom cloud. And people are assuming they are alive? How?! LOK was originally planned to be a mini-series so therefore the season finale is in a sense the series finale. The creators even said that their will be a new villain each season. So based on common logic and the following evidence Amon and Tarrlok still being alive is nearly impossible. So they should be listed as deceased because saying they are alive or possibly alive is pure speculation while their is logic and evidence pointing to them being dead. Wikian13000 (wall • contribs) 15:12, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Let me make another point. If we write that they are presumably deceased, we say, "Yes, we are speculating". Presuming is speculating! But if we decide that the evidence points in the direction of them being deceased - as it is done around the world - then we accept that it is a logical explanation, not speculation. 16:16, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
First of all, don't compare this to a court case. If you do, you should go take some classes because you don't know what you're in for. Second of all, the argument that they are dead since the creators want a different antagonist for the second season does not hold whatsoever. Zuko became a protagonist. Tarrlok seemed to turn into one as well. Amon seemed rather defeated and upset with his own decisions when he shed that tear (that much I could read). So why are people so unwilling to believe that people can change? They don't need to be villains if they live! And if we put "deceased" down and then it is later revealed that they are alive, I think we should change it to: "HammerOfThor and MaKorra2012 were right. We can't speculate on such ambiguous deaths". MaKorra2012 13:52, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- First, you completely misunderstood my Bryke point. No kids show will be so complicated to have to characters survive an explosion fifty times bigger than themselves. And if that's what you want to do - write that you and HoT were right- well I thin we will take the risk. 17:51, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- @MaKorra2012 If revealed later to be alive, you are welcome to state that in the edit summary. WOO-YAAH!!! Until then, lets play Occam's razor and state it as deceased. — Hasdi Bravo • 17:57, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
First, I didn't misunderstand that at all. Zuko was in an explosion of similar magnitude. Yes, he made a shield, but we have nothing to suggest Amon or Tarrlok didn't whip up quick shields (as unlikely as that is). Obviously I was kidding about writing we were correct. MaKorra2012 14:29, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Dude, its a work of fiction. If Nick wants it bad enough, anybody can come back to life, even Roku! Captain America was shot at close range, had a funeral, and replaced with Bucky (who was supposed to be dead!), but Marvel brought Captain America back to life anyway. In case of Amon and Tarrlok, we have to take their "death" at face value, and edit it back as "apparent death" if that changes in the future. — Hasdi Bravo • 18:41, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Guys, we're going in circles here. No one is going to sway anyone else's opinion, so let's just take a vote and be done with it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I can open a vote, as per "voting may not be initiated until it is beyond reasonable doubt that further regular discussion will not yield a clear consensus". So, here we go. Rassilon of Old (Wall - Help) 22:54, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
It should be clear to what we're voting. Support means Amon and Tarrlok should not be marked as "dead", because it is not clear. Oppose means "they're dead, end of story". ― Thailog 23:10, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Support — I believe that there is a strong possibility that they would have survived, at least one of them. Their deaths have not been confirmed. Plus they were in a boat, and they are both waterbenders. I believe that they could be severely injured or burned, but not dead. MIA for me. OWL (wall • contribs) 15:58, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
- Support — I'm going to support that they are alive because I have no evidence that they're dead, but it seems like they are deceased. No one confirmed their deaths so I don't know. To me they are MIA.--Omar067 (wall • contribs) 23:09, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Support — I've given all my reasons above. I believe listing them as MIA is the best choice. HAMMEROFTHOR 23:19, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Support — There is insufficient evidence for both parties (regardless of what some think) so the benefit of the doubt must be given. I would also like to conclude by saying the argument that Amon knew Tarrlok was going to kill him is ridiculous. No one says, "alright you can kill us". The tear was simply because of him reminiscing about his old life and anyone with the slightest emotional capacity could tell you that. MaKorra2012
- Support — Per HammerOfThor. We don't add speculation, there is no confirmation they are actually dead. fruipy oaty bar это курам на смех 03:04, July 3, 2012 (UTC)
- Support — I dont believe that they are dead maybe they will be badly injured or something.
19:10, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
Neutral — I doubt we should just jump on the bandwagon here and say "they're just dead" or They can live they're water benders.
Scenario 1. Tarrlok wanted an end to this sad story and choose to end both their lives. Amon and Tarrlok die by the explosive blast ripping them to shreads with Absolutely no chance of survival, the end.
Scenario 2 Amon somehow was able to save himself with his water bending abilities, it has been shown that Amon was probably one the most skilled people in the Avatar series:Clever,Ambitious,charismatic,agile, he is no one to mess with.He didn't even used his waterbending for 90% of the series,Even dodging lightning.[]
So Amon makes a sheild or leaps away leaving Tarrlok to die. And escaping, going back to the Water Tribes and following his father footsteps bla,bla bla.never to be seen agian bla bla bla
Scenario 3 Amon and Tarrlok discussed how they were going to get away,similar to their father they fake their own death, Amon Cried a bit knowing all is work is tarnished, Tarrlok gets ready,Tarrlok fires up the glove, they jump swimming away far distances using water bending. NOTED We haven't seen Tarrlok touch the gas tank with the glove on nor don't know his EXACT intentions.And there bodies were not seen or heard from
Scenario 4 "The Truth" WE DON'T know ANYTHING of what happen, that explosion could of been on the mines the Equalist layed out earlier[]
The END, NO ONE KNOWS--18.104.22.168 04:22, July 5, 2012 (UTC)WaterLordKern
- Oppose — The impression Bryke is attempting to give us is that Amon and Tarrlok were killed in that explosion. Evidence and arguments presented by multiple users in the case of the two brothers' deaths vastly outweighs those who have provided evidence for the otherwise. I say we change all articles to reflect their deaths. Rassilon of Old (Wall - Help) 22:54, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — Per my comments. Amon and Tarrlok are dead. ― Thailog 23:06, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — Amon was no fool. Being able to bloodbend with his mind/feel others' presence as such; I am rather certain he knew what Tarrlok was doing. Amon went from being happy and hopeful one moment - to suddenly somber and silent the next, even shedding a tear. He knew what was coming; but willingly chose not to stop his own brother's actions. That is how I see it. Vulmen (talk • EoK) 23:09, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- That's the way I am seeing it: Amon shed a tear just before Tarrlok blew them up. It was also mentioned earlier on - in "Skeletons in the Closet" - that Amon could sense your actions through bloodbending. It was made quite clear (for those who pay attention to details) that Amon knew what was coming.
23:12, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- That last comment was not needed. HAMMEROFTHOR 23:19, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- And how is that, in particular? Since when is extra reasoning bad? 14:04, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstood what I meant to say: I said that for people who paid attention to the details, they had noticed that it was mentioned Amon could sense your actions and he shed a tear before they were blown up, thus, I infer that Amon knew that he had it coming. I hope that's better 14:46, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
- i dont remember that, what happened exactly? to make you think Amon could sense others with bloodbending?though it would make sense, just like Toph could feel the rocks in the air. Rydersilver (wall • contribs) 17:05, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
- That last comment was not needed. HAMMEROFTHOR 23:19, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- That's the way I am seeing it: Amon shed a tear just before Tarrlok blew them up. It was also mentioned earlier on - in "Skeletons in the Closet" - that Amon could sense your actions through bloodbending. It was made quite clear (for those who pay attention to details) that Amon knew what was coming.
- Oppose — Tarrlok and Amon should be considered deceased, period. I have given enough evidence to support my case. As RoO said, it is obvious what Bryke are trying to tell us: Amon and Tarrlok are dead. It is also unreasonable to consider them alive. To give an example to those who disagree, even Councilman Sokka and the rest of the URN Council was forced to convict Yakone based on the enormous amount of evidence they were presented with; believe it or not, it's the same with this case.
23:10, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — Let's be honest - Amon knew what was coming. There was a large mushroom cloud, and no evidence of any chance to defend against it. The combo that Tarrlok set was lethal, and no one, not in 1920/170 ASC or in 2012 will survive that. It's safe to call them dead. Katara and Bolin Fanboy Send me a messenger hawk 23:14, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — The only reason to list them as "MIA" is if there is any evidence that they could have survived. There is not even the slightest bit of evidence that they survived, so it is reasonable to list them as deceased.Zuqiu85 (wall • contribs) 00:10, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — I've said enough.If your doctor is sick, then who is healing you? Read. It's good for you. 00:13, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — I hereby declare them to be legally dead. If they come back in later seaons, we can edit it back as "apparently died." In comic-book-speak we say, "they are dead... for now." When they come back, we say "they are alive.. for now" — Hasdi Bravo • 02:00, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — I don't feel the need to justify this with reasoning. It's pretty straightforward that they died. Water Spout 02:06, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — sure we didnt see them get blown to bits, but nick wont permit that. its obvious enough, and if they happen to be alive, it was intended, obviously, for us to believe them to be dead. Rydersilver (wall • contribs) 02:17, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — Obvious death is obvious. Per my reasoning above. Axiovatar 03:02, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — Per my reasoning above. This issue has been made far too complicated in the interests of "objectivity". KettleMeetPot (wall • contribs) 03:07, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — The boat exploded in a ball of fire. They. Are. Dead. Both of them. It's just common sense; just because there is some minute chance (in a few minds) that they are alive is no reason to go against common sense. We don't have to wait on Bryke's exact word for every little thing. --Mageddon725 - talk 06:38, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — Indeed, it is clear and sensible that they had both died in that explosion. I also tend to think that Noatak knew what Tarrlok intended to do, but as we saw, he did not make any effort to stop him; and of course we know what fate Tarrlok chose. Neither of them tried to save themselves from death, so why should we assume that they're anything but? The Ultimate Waterbender 14:12, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
- I've heard that Mike and Bryan will make a "different story" on book two, but it's too hard to be too different. So, I believe they would not survive from the explosion. Acer Indonesia Ask anything about fanon! • TCA:TFF 14:19, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — I've kept up with reading this forum - even if I haven't responded - and I saw all the arguments. It seems pretty clear to me that they are indeed dead. --AvatarRokus Ghost (Message me • Read my fanon) 15:06, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — For spirits' sake, do we really need a vote for this? It's utterly ridiculous that this has gone on for so long as it did. We are really taking the "it has to be confirmed" thing too far if we cannot longer rely on logic at all. They should've been listed "deceased" the moment the episode ended. Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 15:07, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — I think Bryke left it ambiguous so people weren't sure, but I believe they are dead. As bad as it sounds, killing characters is a perfect way to cut them from the storyline - if Amon was still alive, we wouldn't have a new baddie. FooFoo (wall • contribs) 08:38, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — The only way Amon could have survived is if he would be the automatically-self-healing cheerleader from the series 'Heroes'. Somehow, he doesn't seem to be the cheerleader kind of guy to me... So yeah, I'm not buying the 'they could have survived' story. When official confirmations are more important than common sense, we're heading in the wrong direction. Even Bryke laugh at their own disability to kill characters on screen ('Did Jet just die?' 'You know, it was really unclear'), so I see no reason to assume that they're alive. Seliah Jade 11:55, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — If the brothers are alive, what purpose can they serve in the series? Those two are already wanted by the United Forces (similar to Interpol). Amon's Revolution movement is dead in water, Tarrlok is no longer welcome to Republic City, their lives are pretty much ruin and done for. Everywhere they go in the Avatar world they'll be unwelcome. Pretty much their saga ends and like what Tarrlok said, "put an end to this sad story."The Space Engineer 15:53, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — As I stated in the discussion thread, to me this case is closely akin to Combustion Man's demise and the belief that he was still alive despite compelling evidence to the contrary. --MadCat221 (wall • contribs) 17:39, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — Bryke has held nothing back in the writing of this series. When Tarrlock first mentioned Yakone, he was shown in a flashback in the same episode and we refused to connect the dots. This is the same kind of situation; that explosion would have killed anyone unless they had sufficient time to defend themselves and Bryke would have elaborated on the situation if they wanted them to survive. They are dead, end of story. --I'm The Bos Wall 19:37, June 29, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — Explosion. In the middle of the ocean. Not expecting it. Amon is dead. Yeah, maybe he dove into the water or made a water shield, maybe Jet just fell asleep at the end of Lake Laogai and Combustion Man actually escaped alive. It's ridiculous at this point. All evidence points to them being dead, so that's the best way to go until we get further information in Book 2. BlackMonkey Talk - Rhythm 15:49, June 30, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — Amon and Tarrlok are dead. It is physically impossible to survive an explosion of that much force. Through scientific analysis and research, I have concluded that an explosion with that height, magnitude, and cloud formation would instantaneously kill any living being on that boat. I have gone into further detail in my blog. --JustAnotherRedShirt (wall • contribs) 00:42, July 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — It was very clear to me that they died. The only thing other than deceased that I find valid to list is "presumably deceased". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:35, July 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose — Per all (and I didn't even read the votes. :P)If your doctor is sick, then who is healing you? Read. It's good for you. 04:25, July 5, 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose —they are dead, that's what he intended to do and there was no indication otherwise. with Jet i thought the creators made it perfectly clear when toph said that jet was lying about being ok. with zuko in the explosion if you looked you can see zuko doing a fire sheild to protect himself, combustion man, please the whole building collapsed that he was standing on...but not here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Flockwood (wall • contribs) 11:39, 6 July 2012
- Oppose — well it is obvious that they are not alive. If the creators wanted them to be alive they would have most likely shown them alive. Until further notice we should list them as dead, as they were in the middle of nowhere and their boat pretty much exploded.Ice MessageMePeople • Journeys of a Broken Dragon 11:47, July 6, 2012 (UTC)
I personally don't think that they're dead. Nick did say that they would not straight out kill or fatally injure someone, because it's too violent for a kids show. That's why it was never clear if Jet died or not. That's why Bryke made Sokka say "Y'know, it was really unclear." when Zuko asked him if Jet died. I think that they just wanted us to think that until they have a big surprise for us in season 2. Appa4ever (wall • contribs) 01:59, July 4, 2012 (UTC)Appa4ever
- Yes, and that why they did not show Amon and Tarrlok to be blown into smithereens, but it's not because they did not explicitly showed it, that they did not die. The creators also confirmed afterwards that Jet had died, although it was never explicitly shown on screen, only strongly implied, and now they did the exact same thing with Amon and Tarrlok. Lady Lostris (talk • HotN) 10:42, July 5, 2012 (UTC)
I am a Psychology student and I'll make it clear, the only thing I know is I do not know. But here are facts. 1. An explosion of that magnitude can kill. 2. We did not see any body part flying. From this two facts, I can say that the posibility ofdeath is about 90 percent for torrlak and 60 percent for Amon. Because, Torrlak is closer from the gas tank. Amon is farther and unlike his brother,Amon can waterbend. No evidence, however , can be conclusive. Let's just wait for part two--Protorazor (talk • contribs) 14:49, July 6, 2012 (UTC)