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This is the talk page for the article "The Last Airbender".

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This talk page is for discussing improvements to the page only. General discussion about the films can be found at Forum:Film-related Discussion.

Gallery

Sorry I acidentally messed-up the gallary trying to put in a new picture--KataraTophAzula 21:02, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

How do you accidentally remove sixteen images? ― Thailog 21:49, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

I was trying to insert another picture and well somehow it was all gone I may have been a member for a year but I still don't know how everything works I spend most of my time on youtube--KataraTophAzula 22:10, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

Should we out these images somewhere--KataraTophAzula 23:31, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

Hmm..maybe. They seem Ok. Personally, I'm also surprised that 16 images were removed.--Avatar Talk 23:35, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

Don't ask me how because I don't know--KataraTophAzula 23:37, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

He should ask you, since it was you who did it. Also, you should add a proper source and license before slapping them anywhere. ― Thailog 23:39, October 27, 2009 (UTC)
Read the directions at the top when you upload images. That's why they are there.--Avatar Talk 23:41, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

What's the big deal it's fine now so where should we put this images and is it me or does Zuko's actor's scar seem a little bit darker--KataraTophAzula 23:50, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

Ok, let's try this: images deleted for lack of sourcing and license. Don't upload them again unless you want to do it properly. ― Thailog 23:54, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

What you delete them for one of the images had the stinken cast in them it had Aang Zuko and I think Iroh's actor's in there how much more proof do you need--KataraTophAzula 23:58, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

If you are incapable of comprehending the concept of sourcing and licensing then you need to stop uploading images altogether. ― Thailog 00:11, October 28, 2009 (UTC)
Just follow the directions at the top of the upload page.--Avatar Talk 00:16, October 28, 2009 (UTC)
I'm surprised someone is actually getting their panties in a twist over a freakin' source! I can't believe something so meaningless would mean so much to someone. That is all Thailog whines about. Are you actually wonder the government is going to take down this Wiki because of a lack of source on an image. People need to stop whining over trivial matters. 208.53.157.16 21:32, October 31, 2009 (UTC)
What you just said is a personal attack and is un-allowed on this wiki. Second, sourcing is important, the facts are simply that. It's not trivial, it's called copyright and retaining to it is the law. Yeah, the government almost definitely wouldn't care at all if we had an unsourced image, but it's better safe then sorry and it keeps fansites from being taken down, which happens a lot. Thank you, The Flash {talk} 22:49, October 31, 2009 (UTC)
I usually ignore jabs from anonymous cowards, but I'll make an exception, in case this skunk is a regular user: I did not make up copyright consciousness. It's actually Wikia's policy. Read it and suck it up. ― Thailog 23:06, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

It's true and I hate how they deleted one of the pictures that was real because is was the cast behind the scenes but that is no need to be so rude he does not whines he's just trying to make shore that the wiki runs the way is suppose to be--KataraTophAzula 22:48, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

Should we replace the main image with this--KataraTophAzula 00:10, November 4, 2009 (UTC) File:TheLast Airbender.jpg

No. The main title is not as visible, and so it doesn't identify nearly as well. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar {Talk} 01:34, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah but this seem more like the cover of a movie you would see at the movies--KataraTophAzula 01:39, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

That really doesn't matter. The purpose of a lead image is not to have something "like the cover a movie you would see at the movies". The purpose is to make the subject of the article immediately identifiable. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar {Talk} 01:41, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

It has the same covor as season one and even has the name of the movie in the on it and it looks really cool it has the iceberg Aand and Appa kinda--KataraTophAzula 01:47, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

888's point is that the title is hard to see relative to the size of the picture, causing the title to become unnoticed. --I'm The Bos - Got something to say? - Read Guardian! 03:12, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and that because it is hard to see, it is not easily as identifiable. Unfortunately, we can't go around changing profile pics at breakneck pace, particularly if the reason is because it looks "cool". Sorry. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar {Talk} 08:37, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

Inlarge the image and it will be easier to see--KataraTophAzula 20:34, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

No, all that will do is make the image too large; even then, the main letterhead will still appear small. We generally limit the width and height of profile images. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar {Talk} 22:09, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

Well at least try to find a place on the page for the two picyurres I uploaded--KataraTophAzula 22:37, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

About the one of Aang in the iceberg, I don't think it's real. The person looks to tall to be Aang. --I'm The Bos - Got something to say? - Read Guardian! 22:47, November 5, 2009 (UTC)
This wiki is about information. Images are there to identify the subject of various articles. We are not an image resource seeking to have as many images as possible. I'm sorry, but your approach is all wrong. One should upload images because they see a part of the article not being properly illustrated, not because one thinks the image is "cool" and that we should go out of the way to justify its inclusion. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar {Talk} 23:26, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

Too Many Pictures

Hi, I was wondering if we should be more selective toward what pictures are added to the gallery on this page, since we do in fact have an entire gallery here: Category:The_Last_Airbender_images. We just need to categorize the images. What do you think? Personally I think there are too many for just this page. -YazzyDream (talkcontribs) 01:25, June 27, 2010 (UTC) Edit: Just categorized all the images. --YazzyDream (talkcontribs) 03:23, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Still think there are too many pictures, and it's really detracting to the overall article. So I decided to just turn them into slideshows. -YazzyDream (talkcontribs) 09:24, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

Victoria Kaye as Azula Rumor

I heard a rumor that some girl who is the same race as Dav Patel will play her I saw a picture of her and she is really beautiful what do you think of this rumor--KataraTophAzula 13:21, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

This is a talk page. The notice at the top of this page states specifically that this page is for discussing improvements to the article. This type of comment should be on the film forum. You've done this quite a lot on this talk page, so please stop now. If you continue to post forum-like comments on this talk page, I'll simply start removing said comments without further comment. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar {Talk} 03:07, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Well I heard a rumor that has to do with this I heard that the official trailer will come out on christmas--KataraTophAzula 13:47, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Didn't you read my comment? I don't care about what rumours you have heard, this page is for discussing improvements to its associated article. I've given you a link to the correct forum, now use it. Wjxhuang, the 888th Avatar {Talk} 02:42, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Dragon Spirit

Does anyone think that this may be Fang? He is the only dragon spirit shown in the series. --I'm The Bos - Got something to say? - Read Guardian! 20:51, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Any one else agree? --I'm The Bos - Got something to say? - Read Guardian! 17:30, February 10, 2010 (UTC)
I've actually heard that in the movie, they're rolling Fang and Roku into one, making them a talking dragon. This has been semi-reinforced by a recent trailer, and I don't like it at all. Kcets, the Music Man (talkcontribs) 01:30, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
Could also be one of the two dragons representing azula and iroh in zuko's conscience. Just saying :P. It would be stupid if Roku was a talking dragon.

Katara and Sokka

Here's a new picture and their in blueKataraTophAzula 00:19, February 5, 2010 (UTC)thumb|200px

Okay, but please use the Imagebox template. It tells you when you upload the image.--Avatar Talk 01:44, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe Koh

I think that Dragon in the gallary is Koh the Facestealer. The way the head appears looks like it's appearing out of something, and you can seen Aang has a very mono face. As the dragon says "you may already be too late", which it's very incoraging. I could see discoraging comments coming from Koh, but not from one of Aang's allies like Fang or Roku.

Differences Between the Series and the Film

Maybe we should include a section regarding the key differences between the Main Series and this film; things like continuity (which will obviously be ripped apart in true Movie Fashion) as well as the differences in firebending. Just a thought.Aang-kai (talkcontribs) 00:12, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

rondom:i totally agree ADD DIFFERENCES!!!!!

i did it........clonedpickle deleted it.....Courage the Cowardly User (talkcontribs) 07:38, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

Delete the plot

It´s very interesting, but until the movie is released, we shouldn´t add a plot. We don´t know anything for sure. And btw it´s a huge spoiler. --BureaucraatKroonKlein.PNG Darth Stefan AdministratorKroonKlein.PNG Talk Stefan_handtekening.PNG 16:56, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

I put a spoiler template at the top, and the plot is from the Movie Novel which was already released. Since it's obviously not a problem for nickelodeon movies since they released the plot in a book, i dont see why the wiki shouldn't have it as long as we use spoiler templates. But if everybody wants to delete it, okay whatever. I'll save it on my computer or something for when it comes out. -- Dudewaldo4 My Userpage!!!yada yada yada...My story 18:54, May 31, 2010 (UTC)


Firebending

In an interview with M. Night Shyamalan, he talks about the changes he has made to firebender, as well as the characters names.....

http://www.ugo.com/movies/changes-to-the-last-airbender

King Bumi?

I just looked at imdb and is saw that Bumi was casted. Althought it could be a rumour. See here! --BureaucraatKroonKlein.PNG Darth Stefan AdministratorKroonKlein.PNG Talk Stefan_handtekening.PNG 16:32, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

I Just Saw The Movie...

F*ck you, M. Night Shyamalan. That is all I have to say. F*CK YOU.--JFH2009 (talkcontribs) 07:09, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

That bad?The Freak of Nature Twilitlink 06:54, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I can live with them changing firebending. I can live with the name changes. But the bending and acting in general was absolutely horrible. Not to mention major, MAJOR plot holes; They mentioned things that were unimportant, skipped things that are necessary for the following two movies, and just plain made up stuff that would have worked fine the way it was to begin with. Not enjoyable what so ever.--JFH2009 (talkcontribs) 07:10, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I thought it was okay. If you're talking about the Kyoshi Warriors, they're really kind of unnecessary for the whole series. They mmight just leave Suki out in the last movie. I mean, she doesn't really have much to contribute. I was actually most mad about firebending. I mean, how can't Shyamalan get that fire is different than the other elements??? It's not like, a substance; it's not concrete! You won't find it on the periodic table!!! IT'S DIFFERENT, so they should create it. The acting wasn't THAT bad...but it was bad. Katara constantly looked like she had been crying. And Azula at the end was HORRIBLE. I MIGHT be okay with how she looks, but her voice sent me over the edge. The name changing...I can live with that. But I think it was stupid and kind of pointless to change them. Ong (Aang), Soeka (Sokka), and Eeroh (Iroh) were the only ones they changed.agni kee(agni kai) -- Dudewaldo4 Kuruk-sprite My stories 15:43, July 1, 2010 (UTC
)

Without Suki in the series, Toph would have drown at The Serpents Pass. They wouldn't have escaped the Boiling Rock. No one would have rescued Sokka and Toph with the Airship at the end of the series. Sokka would still be sexist, and he would go through the series alone and miserable wishing his only girlfriend wasn't the moon. I think Suki is pretty important. But I definitely agree with you about Azula's voice... *cringe*.--JFH2009 (talkcontribs) 17:00, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

Haven't seen the movie yet (and by the reactions, I don't think I should), but I read somewhere that the pronunciation change in names comes from M. Night wanting to use the actual pronunciation of the Chinese characters used to write the characters' names in the series. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:45, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

I think that the movie was bad. They took out a lot of important stuff and they also changed a lot of the scenes. Aang wasn't supposed to to get captured at the Northern Air Temple. I also think that the name changes were stupid. The acting wasn't that bad but I agree that the firebening should have been kept the same. I really hope that M. Night Shyamalan doesn't direct the next movie.Waterbender1 14:15, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

The Kyoshi warriors were also very important in the coup of Ba Sing Se, since Azula and friends used their outfits as disguises to gain the Earth King's trust. It'll be interesting to see how M. Night Shyamalan is going to work around this and change up book 2.Le Koy (talkcontribs) 18:43, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

The movie was just a steaming pile of sh*t, we all know it. Once again, M. Night has created an abortion of a movie, and unfortunately it has been done to our beloved Avatar. I could RANT off a list of all my problems, but I'm just going to cut it to one VERY important plot hole. "The Avatar isn't meant to hurt anyone?" Really?! REALLY?!?!?! You just fu*ked the ENTIRE PLOT for the rest of the series. How is Aang supposed to feel bad about hurting the Earth Kingdom soldiers in the Avatar State, which in turn is used in unlocking his chakra? How is he supposed to have the PIVOTAL DILEMMA over killing Ozai?!?!?! So, in conclusion, eat sh*t and die M. Night. I hope that this finally ruins your career and they get someone else to take the reigns. Kcets, the Music Man (talkcontribs) 05:36, July 4, 2010 (UTC)


Yeah, I was wondering if it was just cause it was dubbed, but it seems wrong playing came from original already. And they cut out so many important parts. Besides - earthbenders in normal camp, with plenty of earth around? What the #@censored@# --TakeruDavis (talkcontribs) 13:13, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

what's with momo

momo looks so stupid sure a looks like a lemer more

casting call?

The article says "On April 8 Frank Marshall conducted an interview with UGO.com where he showed the original casting calls that did not have the line "Caucasian or any other ethnicity". According to him, other local casting offices distributed the "offending" casting calls with out permission." These sentences are a bit confusing. They probably make sense to someone who knows the full story, but without context I can't figure out what they are supposed to mean. Wickedjacob (talkcontribs) 06:30, July 2, 2010 (UTC)


that's not what M Night said: http://www.indiemoviesonline.com/news/m-night-shyamalan-in-his-own-words-on-the-last-airbender-race-controversy-250610

this isn't the first time, they really have trouble keeping their story straight.Silvercell (talkcontribs) 23:00, July 4, 2010 (UTC)Silvercell


also, my revision was deleted. "... right before M Night opened his big mouth and said it was his doing:http://www.indiemoviesonline.com/news/m-night-shyamalan-in-his-own-words-on-the-last-airbender-race-controversy-250610

also note that this isn't the first time the production has changed it's story."


it's was an interview in their own words. how was it inacurate?Silvercell (talkcontribs) 23:04, July 4, 2010 (UTC)Silvercell

I could live with choice of cast,the mispronunciation of the names and even the horrid acting but the firebending,it was the one of the things that made wait patiently for this movie all year.M. Night Shyamalan believes that fire benders have an unfair advantage and that is why he cut they're ability to generate fire and only manipulate a pre-existing source(by so doing giving airbenders an unfair advantage)but that would be like having airbenders to only manipulate air when the wind is blowing or earthbenders during an earthquake or waterbenders when there is a wave.generating fire adds another level of conflict between firebending and airbending.Firebending was the bending art I and I am sure a lot of you wished you could do and Shyamalan twisted it.They call M. Night a one hit wonder for the Sixth Sense but I call him a one hit jackass(Please pardon my use of explicit language but I saw the movie last night and I am quite upset).

Everything from scrap

I just wanna know if, because of all the constructive critiscm, everything will be changed in the second movie - Dialogue, casting ectDMG0204 (talkcontribs) 11:48, September 19, 2010 (UTC)DMG0204

Cleaning up Casting section

I post a suggestion about this in the comments a day or so ago. When I got no response, i cleaned it up and then it was changed back. I cleaned it up even more and it was still changed back. Is there something sacred with the old Casting section I should know about? The movie is already out, so what is the point of the Casting rumor subheading? Hasdi (talkcontribs) 07:07, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

I want transplant the Casting section on the main page, with Cast section my page. I have cleaned up the entries, using as a guide the Castsection from the wikipedia entry on The Matrix movie. If I hear no objection after 12 hours, I'll go ahead and transplate the section, and take out the tag as well. Thank you. Hasdi (talkcontribs) 02:57, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

Reworking the Synopsis

I want to take this out but I am no mood for another edit war. My main problem with this section is that the Synopsis talked about events did not happen in the movie. Moreover, with the Detailed Plot section, it seemed redundant. If there is a need to keep it, I suggest someone fix the errors in the Synopsis section. Hasdi (talkcontribs) 07:11, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

We cant remove synopsis, since there is a need for it. Detailed plot can go though.
-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions)
With other wikia like harry potter, the books synopsis/plot is long but the film adaptation is short, e.g. Harry Potter 6 Book.
If we agree that the movie is the different than series, then the synopsis for movie needs to be as long, e.g. synopsis section for The Blue Spirit and The Siege of the North, Part 1. I humbly suggest we transplant the contents of Detailed Plot into Synopsis. Savvy? Hasdi (talkcontribs) 12:13, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

Fine.

-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions)
We can create a new page: "Plot of The Last Airbender". Dcasawang1 - Talk 16:55, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

Right now the existing Synopsis is mix of that happened in the movie, what happened in the novelization, and what happened in the animated series. Haru was never named in the movie, for example. I rather replace the Synopsis with the Detailed Plot, but I understand that some may find it too long. However, the synopsis section for The Blue Spirit and The Siege of the North, Part 1 is long too, and the movie is at least 4 times longer than a regular episode. If we have a summary of the Detailed Plot in the Synopsis, then someone has to constantly reconcile the summarized plot and the detailed plot in two different pages. Personally, I rather have a long synopsis, rather than a long list of differences between between the movie and the original series. Cheers. Hasdi (talkcontribs) 17:57, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

HEADS UP! After 12 hours, I will proceed with transplanting Detailed Plot into Synopsis. Thanks all. 05:03, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

The Novelization

In my opinion, the differences in the novelization is more relevant and useful than the diferences with the animated series, as it is "cut from the same cloth". I placed the differences the under Novelization heading rather than create a new wikia page. Please do not disturb this expansion. Thank you! Hasdi (talkcontribs) 16:15, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

I think this expansion should be added to the main article and not in the film article. Dcasawang1 - Talk 16:34, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

I am open to that. Can you show me an example how you would like to place it, so I can continue expand there instead? Thanks. Hasdi (talkcontribs) 16:37, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

Main Page. Dcasawang1 - Talk 16:42, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

Bless you. I just gut out the expanded portion. Hasdi (talkcontribs) 17:24, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

The Pretender

I think this section should be deleted because nowhere was it said this was ever an inspiration and it is far to speculative.

-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions)

Support

Support Support — What Courage said. Dcasawang1 - Talk 22:25, December 18, 2010 (UTC)

Support Support — Too much speculation, possibly re-add if there is some solid info? Carloso 00:22, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

Support Support — I notice I forgot to vote, back when I was commenting my two cents below. vv Vulmen (talkcontribs) 22:28, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

Oppose

Oppose Oppose — I don't know guys... I didn't want to mention the Pretender references but I got so tired with...

  • Why is so Iroh so different? He is so out of character!
  • What the heck is Avatar test doing in there? This is Shyamalan "invention"!
  • What's with Shyamalan's fascination with Zuko's mom? Is she going to be in the sequel?
  • Shyamalan is in love with Zuko. He might even be a Zutara fan!
  • Why the heck is the opening theme so different than the original animated series? Fail!

Any suggestions? I can move it into a separate page, but I think it is important to have in there somewhere with viewers not familiar with the Pretender references. Sorry for not replying sooner - I didn't check this page as often as I should. Thanks, guys. Hasdi (talkcontribs) 19:24, December 19, 2010 (UTC)

Courage et al... I've been digging for any precedence related to this on wiki and wikia sites. In summary, statements of Allusion can be factual if it can be independently verified, even if the author(s) of the subject matter did not offer or confirm the source of their inspiration, but the reason of the allusion may be speculative or theoretical so it should qualified as such. The Pretender references need to be treated like any "reference to a well known person place or literary work", as the TV series was very popular during its time and predates A:TLA. As such, I am thinking of revising the offending subsection, using the following wiki pages as guides:

Pardon the dust while I work this out. Danke. Hasdi (talkcontribs) 05:09, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

Even though this isn't wikipedia, I'll answer you in wikipedia rules, its considered original research.
-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions)

Oppose Oppose — Makes the page look better. Good job Hasdi (seriously, you're amazing). Water Spout tаlk • blog 05:13, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

Even if it makes the page look better, does it belong? I could make an entire section about how this is similar to Pokemon, but would it make it true withou ta source confirming it was an inspiration?
-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions)
Is the comparison that absurd that it can be treated equally if it were Pokemon? Obviously, if you compare something with no notable similarities, it is being ludicrous and it is obvious grounds for removal. The section added has in-depth information regarding the comparisons and is no different than putting similarities on object or character names to words and phrases in different languages.
Water Spout tаlk • blog 05:20, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
But would it really be absurd? I can look as close as I want and find many similarities, but that doesn't make it true without a quote.
-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions)

Totally agree with Courage. Speculation is speculation; whatever label you try to slap on it it is still speculation. Vulmen (talkcontribs) 05:21, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

A quote from an originator of the subject matter is not necessarily factual or non-speculative. Tom Cruise can be quoted his Mission impossible film series is similar to to the TV Series (or never intended the film series to be made as sequels) but it does not mean it is true. If comparing one subject matter with another is considered original research, then there will be no comparison / differences / themes / influences / literary references pages. If someone can make a statement of comparison and another can verify its accuracy, then it can be factual. If someone stated that when the scene where Woody from Toy Story 3 suspended one inch from the floor is in reference to Tom Cruise's Mission Impossible break-in scene, that is factual, even if no one from Disney has been quoted as such.
The real question is, is the comparison relevant or useful to the subject matter on hand? Unless Momo can generate lightning like Pikachu, I don't see enough similarities in Pokemon to warrant its inclusion on this site. The Pretender is useful; for someone old enough to have seen The Pretender TV series, its references on A:TLA will be somewhat in-your-face, e.g."am I the only person whose getting a vibe from the tv show pretender from avatar?"[1] It becomes more relevant with Shyamalan's adaptation, now that he incorporated additional elements from the show. The speculation may be that he wanted to establish Zuko's anti-hero status much earlier, not that he was in love with Zuko or anything. Without recognizing these references, others may conclude that Shyamalan had brought something new and original to the table, but he clearly did not. Moreover, the Katara-narrated Prologue in the movie was similar to Season 1 and 2 opening of the TV Series. He could have used the "Star Wars opening crawl" (which some critics had accused of him ripping it off from) and others, but of all the ways he could have executed text-on-screen, he chose this... likely as a nod to The Pretender TV Series. Hasdi (talkcontribs) 14:18, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
It doesn't make t true becAuse he is an actor that had nothing to do with the creation, get a quote from Shyamalan or Bryke and then it will have a place.
-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions)
Tom Cruise was also a producer for Mission Impossible[2] so he had a hand with that monstrosity. A creator of a fictional work don't always offer the source of their inspiration unless you ask, even then it may not necessarily be true. Our copyright enforcement would come crumbling down if you need a factual statement from an alleged infringer himself before he can be prosecuted for plagiarism. However, I can tell you that M.Night should be familiar with The Pretender. After all, before Haley Joel Osment was cast Cole Sear in his movie The Sixth Sense, Haley played a significant role in the two-part Season 2 finale[3]. Haley wasn't well known then, so typically a director like M.Night would have to review Haley's past work before selecting him. Then again, people of his age group has to be living under a rock not to know The Pretender - it was a prime-time show during its run, along with the X-Files, Cops, and Ally McBeal.
You know what? Let me clean-up that subsection. At a glance, it does look like an op-ed piece.
Hasdi (talkcontribs) 02:17, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
If you look at it, its two different things. Tom Cruise said he thought it was similar, not that it was a source. The creators statement is much more reliable because they, I dunno, created it? Just because Shymalan saw his credentials, doesn't mean anything. He may have seen an episode, but without any source, its not a fact and should be removed.
-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions)
A creator statement is not necessary to prove the influences and references are there - in a court of law, any such statement is considered nothing more than an admission or a claim, not a proof of its existence. If there is Shakesperean reference in an author's fictional work, e.g. "a rose by any other name", a notable reference can be factual, even if the author never admitted Shakesperean influence in his work. If someone used an Star Wars opening crawl in his movie, I can call it a Star Wars reference, even he never confirm it as such. Its not my fault if somebody do not recognize the references because they have not read Shakespeare or have seen not Star Wars. The some goes with Trinity anti-gravity kick from the Matrix or "Do you feel lucky, punk?" from Dirty Harry or "It's good be a king" from History of the World: Part 1 or "Frankly, my dear. I don't give a damn" from Gone with the Wind.
A:TLA made a lot of references to other fictional work that the most of their viewers don't recognize; just because Bryke never confirmed them, does not mean it is not there. Some fans have noted such influences and references in the wikia pages like in the Trivia section. For The Pretender, most A:TLA fans may not recognize its references simply because they either too young or not even born yet. However, the target audience of that prime-time NBC show do include Shyamalan and Bryke, 5-9 years before A:TLA.
I reorganized the subsection. The first paragraph is a brief intro to the references. The second paragraph itemize the additional references made in the movie with respect Zuko-related changes. The third paragraph is a like an anti-hero storytelling 101. If you don't want to be left out on the joke, many episodes of the Pretender are available for free on Hulu.
Hasdi (talkcontribs) 03:02, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
This isn't a court of law, it's a wiki. Disregard the it has to be from the creatOr statement, but it does have to be from someone who worked on the show, the wiki requires refErences.
-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions)
I've been racking my brains to figure out the technical issues with having Pretender influences and references in the wikia pages. I could rationalize all I want but I sense that you find these are somehow offensive to you. You think I am dissing Bryke for being unoriginal? I mean, non-factual opinionated statements against Shyamalan has been up here for months and many remain here (e.g. THe Reception and Controversy), but those don't seem to bother you as much that you need to take them out. Incorporating adult references to a kids show is what makes A:TLA just not a show for kids. That's the brilliant part - the kids don't know any better but the adults watching with them will appreciate the references for what they are and enjoy the show with the kids. Toy Story films did the same thing. Despicable Me made references to US financial crisis like Goldman Sachs and TARP - the kids don't know those meant but the adults get it. Heck, just the other day, I saw Sym-Bionic Titan feature a scene straight from Die Hard 1. That deserves to be noted influence even if the show producers have not comment it a such.
I am willing to reword it to make less offensive to you, but I can't bring myself to take it out until I understand your line of reasoning. If I am wrong then I am wrong. Sorry, I don't want to be difficult. I rather contribute materials to wikia than defend my contribution for something so petty and trivial. Hasdi (talkcontribs) 15:59, December 23, 2010 (UTC)
It is not "offensive" to me, nor is it offensive to Bryke, I'm not some fanboy of theirs. But, take a look at the recent edits to the Pai Sho page for instance, people have been adding fan made rules, do they make sense? Should we keep them? No. You need a source to back up your claims.-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions) 04:51, December 28, 2010 (UTC)
I like M.Night but unlike some people, I don't treat his word as Gospel, a divine truth, even with his own work. For example, he was quoted on the pronunciation of Avatar on UGO (http://www.ugo.com/movies/changes-to-the-last-airbender) back in March 2010:
"Also, it isn’t “Avatar” like aaah, it is “Avatar” like “Of-Atar.” That’s a subtle difference, though. I don’t want it said with an Indian accent – you know, it is a Sanskrit word – but I want it with a gentle accent. So that one is blurred. We had a linguist come in to discuss all this, by the way, this isn’t just me doing all this."
Did that happen in the movie? No, the pronunciation was IPA: /ɑvɑtɑr/. That is fact - anyone watching the movie can independently verify that statement. His quote was not. Why did he change it? I have few ideas - but that will be speculation on my part. The same goes with his quote that Kyoshi Warriors was removed because the test-screeners expected them to be in the third act. His quote is simply his claim, not fact. My theory is that he cut it because Paramount wanted a shorter running to accomodate limited availability of 3D screens. I have a good case to back that up HERE.
The bottom line is that Pretender references were in the movie - anyone knowledgable with the TV series can verify this, especially with its uncommon hero/anti-hero parallel storyline format and character interaction dynamics. Any quote I can find will either an admission that still needs to corroborated, or a claim that deserve to be challenged. Hasdi (talkcontribs) 08:43, December 28, 2010 (UTC)
All most anyone knowing the series cannot verify it, they had no part in making the movie. And the movie DID pronounce it Ofatar. And the actors themselves would have a part in thaT, not Shymalan, because he doesn't control their voice. But if he says that it's an inspiration, then it is. You can't say Bryke's word counts for nothing when they say there are no more Air Nomads when a random fan says there are.-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions) 08:50, December 28, 2010 (UTC)
M.Night was talking about using Hindi pronunciation, अवतार (Click on Listen). The movie used the generic Asian pronuncation, which contradicts "it isn’t “Avatar” like aaah". Note that both Indian actors, Dev Patel and Aasif Mandvi, used the latter pronuncation. That is why an Indian anon was insulted when another anon said that the movie used "Indian-sounding" pronunciation for Avatar.
I do realize that most people watching the animated series are either too young to have seen the Pretender or have not even born yet. Hence, the reference to the TV series is the reference, to allow anyone can go verify it themselves. Its on Hulu, you don't even pay to watch it - you might even notice June and Ty Lee in there. Its no more my fault if one refuse to watch the Pretender, any more if he refuse to read or watch Sherlock Holmes, e.g. the Trivia item on Avatar Day:
  • When gathering evidence, Sokka wears a goofy-looking hat and pipe. This is likely a reference to the detective Sherlock Holmes, a character in a popular book series by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
As for Bryke saying there is no more Air Nomads, that is something that has yet to be contradicted - we just have to their word for it since the original series has ended. I mean, the canon writers also said Superman, Aunt May, Gandalf, Wolverine, Captain Kirk, and Captain America were dead before, then the writers came up with fantastic explanations to bring them back to life. We have to wait for Korra to see how Bryke intend to repopulate the Air Nomads after a hundred years. "It ain't over till it's over". I let you figure out what that quote is in reference to. Hasdi (talkcontribs) 16:34, December 28, 2010 (UTC)
Then that is different, you are talking about the real world, M Night thought it was the correct pronunciation, so that is a reference to why they pronounced it that way, but you still need a reference for this. Seriously, comics shouldn't be used since they have multiple authors and creators of their own worlds, but ATLA has two for the show and three for the movie, it's not a correct allusion. Wikia requires that you get quotes or references, you can claim anything you want, I can claim I write for the show, but that doesn't make it true if I don't confirm it in some way.-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions)
A:TLA do have multiple writers. Only Korra has two writers. The movie has three plotters and one writer. If you need a quote for everything in wikia and a lot of stuff can get yanked from wikia, like that Sherlock Holmes reference in Avatar Day. There are other non-factual things in this page can deserve your attention.
Hasdi (talkcontribs) 18:31, December 30, 2010 (UTC)
You are saying The Pretender references are all over the series, this means it was the creators doing if it was true, so find a quote to refence it or it should be deleted, consensus has been reached because 2/3 of the vote have said to delete it.-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions) 00:48, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

Neutral

Comments

Two thirds say delete, is that enough to close the vote?-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions) 22:17, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

Give it another day or two, it'll give people a chance too notice and express their views. Carloso 22:19, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

Right, miscounted, it's going to closer Jan. 1.-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions) 22:21, December 29, 2010 (UTC)
End it on the new year? Yeah I guess that'd give time to notice and vote. Close it then. Carloso 22:25, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

That's nice. I had more votes than you but wait until you have enough votes in your favor beforing calling it to close, right before the others get change to get back from the holidays. This is turning into a popularity contest. I asked what could be improved but I was told to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Hasdi (talkcontribs) 18:36, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

More votes are int eh favor of deleting it, 2/3's to be exact. 4 vs. 2. If more votes come before tomorrow, then further discussion will be needed.-- Courage the Cowardly User (Talk) (Contributions) 00:49, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
This discussion is closed.
Please do not edit this discussion.
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