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Forums: War Room The Origin of the Fire Lord
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This discussion is closed. The result of this discussion was:

The history section on the "Fire Lord" page will be amended.

Please do not edit this discussion.

So I was on the page for the Fire Lord, and saw a part of the history section that said the first Fire Lord mention in Smoke and Shadow's reign collapsed, with the head of the fire sages centuries later 'reclaiming' the title. And I was thinking "Hang on. When was it ever mentioned that his reign collapsed?" Apparently this was done to resolve the conflicting origins between the Lost Scrolls (Where the Fire Lord was the original head fire sage) and Smoke and Shadow (Where he didn't appear to be a fire sage), by having them as separate origins with SS happening before and basically ending in collapse with the Fire Lord's true 'modern origin' being detailed in LS. Now personally I felt that was basically making up history not mentioned in the series, not to mention making it seem like this was mentioned in the source referenced, so I tried to get rid of this. Perhaps my mistake was trying to get rid of the LS mention all together, because someone else undid my argument, basing his argument on the fact that SS conflicted with previously established history, even though that's not what happened and Zuko only suggested a reason why the avatar didn't stop the atrocities pre-fire lord was because there was no avatar yet, which we know can't be true because as someone pointed out it conflicts with previously established history. So after a couple of days of no response after a day of arguing I suggested to combine the two origins. With no response a day after that I decided to make the edit, only to have it undone again and being told to bring it to the war room to make a proper consensus.

So what are other people's opinions on the two origins given in lost scrolls and smoke and shadow? when this was originally discussed on the smoke and shadow talk page, someone who made the edit mentioning the first fire lord's collapse said that if this seemed to speculative then it can be 'easily reworked'. Despite mentioning this the administrator who undid my edit told me to bring this to the war room anyway.

Please see the talk page on smoke and shadow part 2 and the origin of the fire lord section on the fire lord talk page for further background information.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Anonymius (wallcontribs) February 14, 2017


How exactly are you proposing that we amend the history? Because when the issue about putting together the timeline arose the first time around, there was no seamless progression of events that any of the participants involved could figure out. From my understanding the version used now was something everyone at the time found satisfactory until Hasdi raised some contention sometime after the changes were already rolled out. Waterbending emblem Water Spout 17:30, February 15, 2017 (UTC)
Ok, here's an attempt of making the pieces go together. It's still a give and take regarding interpretation, but I think it can remove the "collapsed regime" that seems to be the sore spot in the current wording. The Lost Scrolls bit defined the Fire Lord as the head of the Fire Sages in a more spiritually inclined era. I think it's possible to say that the Fire Lord we see in Smoke and Shadow Part 2 was a Fire Lord in that sense, as a head Fire Sage. This way, he still leads a unified Fire Nation in its early days before there's a split between the Fire Lord and the sages, and doesn't conflict with other known pieces of Fire Nation and Fire Sage history, allowing the Sun Warrior civilisation to have existed pre-unification before going into hiding also pre-unification, having also influenced stuff like Fire Sage's temple's architecture, and the group that came to be the Fire Sages can still be an offshot of the Bhanti Tribe that existed since before the Avatar. How does that sound? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:18, February 16, 2017 (UTC)

Sounds good to me Anonymius (wallcontribs) 19:10, February 16, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah sure, sounds coherent enough! Waterbending emblem Water Spout 05:00, February 18, 2017 (UTC)

So I was thinking that where it currently says:

Prior to the formation of the Fire Nation, the disaggregated Fire Islands were united by the first Fire Lord, who ushered a prolonged era of peace until the collapse of his regime.[2] Centuries after, the early Fire Nation shifted from a tribal chiefdom system used during the reign of the Sun Warriors,[3] to a theocracy led by the Fire Sages, with the head sage serving as a de facto leader. However, subsequent head sages sought more authority and reclaimed the title of Fire Lord, beginning the Fire Nation Royal Family's lineage. Afterward, the positions of Great Sage and High Sage were established to replace the Fire Lord's original role as head of the Fire Sages.[4]

Should be changed to this:

Prior to the formation of the Fire Nation, the disaggregated Fire Islands were united by the first Fire Lord, who ushered a prolonged era of peace.[2] The Fire Lord was the original head of the Fire Sages. Afterwards, the positions of Great Sage and High Sage were established to replace the Fire Lord's original role.[3]

Does that sound okay to what we agreed? Anonymius (wallcontribs) 19:30, February 28, 2017 (UTC)