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Forums: War Room Air Acolyte color
Note: This thread has been unedited for 293 days. It is considered archived – the discussion is over. Do not edit this thread unless it really needs a response.
This discussion is closed. The result of this discussion was:

The Air Nomad infobox color scheme will be extended to members of the Air Nation, and subsequently, any affiliated Air Acolytes.

Please do not edit this discussion.

Okay, this is a rather stupid thing to discuss, but it needs to be smoothened out anyway, so we might as well do it here to avoid future edit conflicts and arguments about this.

The question is pretty simple (although minor and somewhat irrelevant, but still): what infobox color and icon (if necessary) do we give the Air Acolytes?

As was pointed out by Waterbender Shen, we usually determine the infobox color via a cascade system:

  1. Bending ability
  2. Nation of origin
  3. Habitual nation

However, the Air Acolytes are sort of tampering with that system. Initially, we colored them URN, since we only knew that they were residing on Air Temple Island. However, now it has become apparent that they reside at every air temple. As such, URN is not applicable to all. We can't color them neutral, as they are not, they are clearly affiliated to the Air Nation and live more or less according to their ancient ways. However, we can't color them orange either, since that indicates an Air Nomad, and they are not Air Nomads. However, their affiliation to the Air Nation is the strongest thing that ties them together, as I do feel that they should all have the same color of infobox as they basically are one big community, regardless where they actually live.

So basically, I'd think that there is either an argument to color the infoboxes orange per their strong affiliation to the Air Nation. Or we color their infoboxes the default brown since no other color truly fits them.

Anyway, I know that it's a nitpicking thing to discuss, but it seems best to just decide this now so future conflicts have a base to fall back on. So, thoughts? Ideas? Lady Lostris (talkHotN) 12:07, September 18, 2013 (UTC)

I don't know how difficult it would be, but could we give them a variation of the Air Nomad colorsheme? For example the yellow could stay, but we would take another color instead of orange. After all, the Air Nomads wore yellow and orange, but members of the Air Nation (including Tenzin & kids) wear yellow and red. So we could take red instead of orange. DyingFlameTsui (wallcontribs) 12:25, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
We usually try to avoid creating new color schemes for every new group that arises. However, they technically are the new Air Nomads, having formed the Air Nation, and as such it could be argued that they deserve their own infobox with yellow/orange and red as colors... hmm, I could be down with that. Lady Lostris (talkHotN) 12:32, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
Hmm, a reddish orange imo would work best. So yes, agreed with Tsui. Srijay K - TechFilmer 17:18, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
I don't think it is really necessary to create a whole new colour scheme, when it would work just as well to simply extend the air scheme to include the Air Nation. HAMMEROFTHOR 20:54, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
I think the simplest, most logical thing is to extend the color scheme to Air Nation. Airbending ability, ancestry, and a few minor cultural differences aside, they're essentially Air Nomads. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:31, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
I agree. The current Air Nomad scheme should be extended to the Air Acolytes. Seeing as how they were created by Avatar Aang himself, they are the continuation of the Air Nomads. It is worth mentioning that the Air Nomads were represented by an Air Acolyte on the Council during Yakone's trial, so they are essentially the new generation of Air Nomads. I feel that by forming them, Aang adopted them into his nation making them a part of the Air Nomads. Just my two cents. Mts606 (wallcontribs) 21:54, September 18, 2013 (UTC)

Look, let's not overcomplicate this. Creating a new colour scheme every time a potential curve ball is thrown has the potential to be endless. Just throw in the old Air Nomad scheme. It's not like it's overused anyway. The 888th Avatar (talk) 13:48, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

It's not about overcomplicating anything, it's about being factually correct. We scrutinize over so many details, but then when it comes to something like this, the immediate response is "let's not overcomplicate things"? The truth is, they are not Air Nomads. None of them are. Not even Tenzin is listed as an Air Nomad. Besides, this is also not just a "potential curve ball", this is an entire new nation we are talking about. With Aang, the Air Nomads are now extinct. However, their place has been taken by the Air Nation, and although they try to uphold many of the Air Nomads' beliefs, that doesn't mean that they are the same. As such, giving them the Air Nomad color-scheme -even though that would be the simplest- would not be the most correct. Lady Lostris (talkHotN) 15:58, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
I'd argue that in the recent past, we've almost become too obsessed with the details. I don't mean that as an accusation at all, though, as we've all been part of it. To engage with your point about them not being the same though, the argument from above by Mts about them being a "continuation" is quite good. They clearly identify themselves with Air, and they've clearly been trusted by Aang and Tenzin with that identification. I'd add that in past cases where "nation of origin" is frankly a tough question to answer, the nation they choose to identify with is the one we use. The 888th Avatar (talk) 16:07, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
That's all true, but from the beginning, Aang made it very clear that they were not the new Air Nomads, otherwise he just would've used that name. Instead, they went by Air Acolytes and named themselves the Air Nation. Which means that they clearly added a distinction between the two nations even though the latter is sort of the continuation of the first. Lady Lostris (talkHotN) 16:14, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

On the basis of this nation being the direct geopolitical successor to the Air Nomads, as established from the current information available, there is still a legitimate argument for the color scheme to be extended - which is why I am in favor of it. KettleMeetPotwall 16:16, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

All the information we have currently available point that, even though they are connected, there is a difference between the Air Nomads and the Air Nation. As such, I don't see what the legitimate argument for extending the Air Nomad color scheme is above altering it slightly -and as such create an Air Nation color scheme- apart from the already suggested "I think they're close enough together and I don't want to create a precedence that we'll be creating new color schemes every time a new group arises". Besides, it won't even be such a precedent, as we already have the practice of creating color schemes that are nation specific and the Air Nation is a new nation -a different one than the Air Nomads. Lady Lostris (talkHotN) 16:23, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
At the same time, your argument centers around "I think they're different enough that it warrants a new national color scheme" - even though, as I have stated, they are the direct geopolitical and cultural successor to the Air Nomads. The naming differences don't account for much - the Air Nomads were never really nomads in the actual sense anyway, it was just a term used for their collective society; so intuitively, the point that the newcomers name themselves the Air Nation just means it is synonymous. It's all about where you draw the line between the similarities and differences, and you disagree about where I draw mine. So be it. KettleMeetPotwall 16:42, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
The difference is though that my argument is just a translation from the information given in the series and the comics. Your argument is completely true, they are the direct geopolitical and cultural successor to the Air Nomads, no argument whatsoever there. However, you are neglecting the fact that Aang deliberately kept them separate, though did not want all the Air Nomad knowledge to be lost and as such started teaching them under a different name -which in this case really is the point that the franchise was making. As such, the line should be drawn where the franchise draws it and not where we want to have it because it would be more convenient. Lady Lostris (talkHotN) 16:47, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

Whatever Aang's intentions were at the time of his founding of the Air Acolytes, none of us can definitively state that by naming them as such, he did it to deliberately distance the group from the Air Nomads - in my own interpretation, I doubt he even thought that far. I could just as easily say that he didn't - he could have done it because "acolytes" was the intuitive term to use at the time, as they would in essence be fans turned pupils who agreed to his tutelage and were largely ignorant to the spiritual nuances of the Air Nomads. Did he not explicitly state that they had "the hearts of the Air Nomads" so he would teach them the "ways of the Air Nomads"? What is really more important here? The one-off name, or that statement highlighting that they were in essence the same at heart as his people? I would think the latter since we all know that the Air Nomads, and by extension Aang, valued spirituality above all else. And even if he had intended for them not to become the successor to the Air Nomads at all, times change - Aang died, and now at the time of The Legend of Korra, the Air Nation has, in near all senses of the word, replaced the Air Nomads. Whatever he intended all those years ago, and even that cannot be said for sure, does not change the facts of how they now exist decades later - and I prefer to rely on the solid information of the latter than the subjective interpretations of the former. KettleMeetPotwall 17:20, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, we can, since Aang was upset that they used the Air Nomad customs, as they were sacred to him and they were not Air Nomads. After he came somewhat around, he still made the conscious decision to not name them Air Nomads to continue the legacy, but something else -even though related. And yes, he said that they were the hearts and had the spirits, but he also said that they weren't Air Nomads. This is not merely an interpretation, it is what was given in the franchise, and as such, contradiction personal interpretations are rendered moot.
So what is important here? That we are factually correct, and stating that the Air Nation and the Air Nomads are the same is just wrong. They are closely related, but they are not the same. Saying that they are just to be convenient is going directly against out encyclopedic purpose of wanting to be as factually correct as we can be.
If you truly want to rely on the solid information given by the series, you would not dismiss Aang's intentions by a "time's change" argument, as the facts are still present that the Air Nomads have not been replaced as such, rather continued as the different Air Nation who still wants to uphold the Air Nomad values while acknowledging that they are different that the former. Lady Lostris (talkHotN) 17:30, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
To support LL's arguments, I want give some examples, as Air Nation and Air Nomads are clearly very different on the second look: They are not the same people, have different politics (Council of Elders - abbots & one overall leader),and different lifestyles (the Air Nomads seperated children from their parents and divided the genders between the temples - the Air Nation does not). I just want you to keep that in mind. There would be enough reasons to give them another color sheme. DyingFlameTsui (wallcontribs) 17:36, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

Whatever the case, we both have differences in opinion and argument that will not be settled here. Though let me make one last point; you are putting far too much implication into a mere color scheme - it can hardly by inferred that just by using the same coloration we are "stating that the Air Nation and the Air Nomads are [completely] the same" and that we on the opposing side are being "factually" dishonest. That is not the precedent here. Just as characters of specific bending ability and ethnicity are loosely categorized under the coloration defining a specific nation, the Air Nation should receive the same on the balance of their similarities to their differences. That is all. KettleMeetPotwall 17:45, September 20, 2013 (UTC)

I started the forum saying that it is a minor thing, so I know exactly the (little) value a color scheme has -and the fact this is that the Air Nation is a different nation next to the Air Nomads, so whether you like it or not, ignoring that is being "factually dishonest". However, this wiki has chosen a long time ago to use the different colors for different nations, and as such, creating the new color scheme would merely be upholding that tradition, nothing more, nothing less. And your "closing statement" to say it is as such is just a wrong comparison, as that too was already addressed at the beginning as to how we usually tend to decide which character gets what color scheme. Here, we have a different nation without a color scheme and that is just per our own tradition not done. You are comparing a the last resort color indication to a first reason one. Lady Lostris (talkHotN) 17:51, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
Where is the term "Air Nation" coming from? is it mentioned somewhere in the show?Mts606 (wallcontribs) 19:28, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
There are distinctions being mentioned here, but really, they're just not big enough to matter. Our categorisations have always been quite loose; total political unity and "sameness" have never been important. Much of the differences described here – lifestyle, politics, culture – exist even between the Northern Water Tribe and the Southern Water Tribe. Much of these differences also exist between characters of mixed heritage and the nation we lump them under. Being exact has never been the goal of having multiple colour schemes. Rather, it's just been about a vague sense of where the main faultlines are. It is a minor thing, and a new colour scheme would be a major thing. It doesn't seem appropriate. The 888th Avatar (talk) 00:15, September 21, 2013 (UTC)
Foggy Swamp Tribe is significantly more different from both SWT and NWT, yet we use the blue color scheme for them. The Air Nation has clearly superseded the Air Nomads. If anything, extend the Air Nomad color scheme to them, extend the Air Nomad icon, but make it available under a new name that distinguishes them from the original Air Nomads. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:45, September 21, 2013 (UTC)
In addition to the different Water Tribes, the Sun Warriors use the same color scheme as the Fire Nation, even though they are not politically affiliated and they are not under the rule of the Fire Lord. Aang's intentions at the time matter less and less as time goes by and they become the natural successor to the Air Nomads. Furthermore, the context at the time should be taken into account. In The Promise they were just a silly fan club who started learning the culture. They're a much different group in Legend of Korra. I don't see why it's factually inaccurate to have the same color scheme. The nation parameter in the infobox would say something different, which provides enough distinction even if the color scheme is the same. --AvatarRokus Ghost (Message meRead my fanon) Aang Cosmic Toph-DoBS-2 01:33, September 21, 2013 (UTC)

we should just use the air nomad color scheme for them, it makes the most sense out of all our options. another thing, why is tenzin not listed as an air nomad? he should be. Intelligence4 (wallcontribs) 02:35, September 21, 2013 (UTC)

Let's not over complicate things. Just use the original colors for the Air Acolytes. They are basically the new Air Nomads anyway minus the airbending. Lucid ☆Star 17:56, September 21, 2013 (UTC)

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